Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 300



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
A Traveller Products CD
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: Ditzie Assisting SayBoom in Going Green
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: For the "humor challenged"
Re: For the "humor challenged"
Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality
Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table
What DOES Ditzie look like?
re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth
re: Grav tank tactics
Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
skimming time
starport photo's
Burtoine-class Escort Fighter (GTL10)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:58:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
> Unless arty improves significantly it isn't a serious threat to armor, much
> less grav armor, and point defense isn't needed for a line MBT, though
> possibly specialized support units might maintain some. 

Heh.  With radar detection, at the agility of a grav tank, you can just dodge
incoming artillery -- if it has a flight time of more than 2-3 seconds and
isn't self-guided, just forget about hitting.  Similar problem in the modern
day with naval cannons -- a 16" gun might be able to shoot twenty miles, but if
it takes 40 seconds to arrive that's enough time for a battleship to dodge. 
This basically suggests that 'artillery' at traveller levels will either be
simple infantry support stuff with fairly short ranges (mortars are still
perfectly useful), have pretty smart terminal guidance systems, or be capable
of covering huge areas.
> 
> This brings to mind grav armor tactics.  In general, in today's TL8
> military realities, if you hit an aircraft, it goes down.  Aircraft
> survive by speed and manueverability, not their ability to take punishment. 
> Of course, there are exceptions (A-10 comes to mind), but it's gotta be alot
> different for Traveller.  Grav tanks can take a pounding and dish it out
> too, and seem likely to render conventional artillery ineffective.  For that
> matter, infantry would have to become more specialized, too, in favor of
> urban combat and other specialized roles.  Grav armor tactics are probably a
> blend of aircraft and armor tactics.  Combine flight, high speed, and
> massive armor and firepower and you have something unlike anything we know
> of.

Sounds like a reasonable description of a helicopter gunship, except it's
tougher.  Tactically probably very similar, however.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:06:44 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

|There is NO reason why all of the GDW CT,MT, TNE, T4 stuff couldn't be put
in
|a CD. I wouldn't have to thumb through my LBB's until they fall
apart...Please
|Marc; allow this...(you'll get royalties...:-) )

Hey Bryan, care to comment?





==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:11:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: A Traveller Products CD

> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 3/17/99 8:20:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> dberry@hooked.net writes:
> 
> << Hell, I'd love to see a Traveller CD-ROM that contained .pdfs of the rules,
>  had Referee-aid software, and all the spreadsheets.  You could put in
>  pregenerated forms like those found in Supplement 12.. all sorts of stuff.
> 
>  And the nice thing is that most of us on the list would contribute work
>  just to make Traveller better. >>
> 
> There is NO reason why all of the GDW CT,MT, TNE, T4 stuff couldn't be put in
> a CD. I wouldn't have to thumb through my LBB's until they fall apart...Please
> Marc; allow this...(you'll get royalties...:-) )

I believe that the HIWG/Traveller CD mailing list is currently doing 
some of that very thing, putting together a new Traveller CD with all 
the old GDW stuff.  Don't know for certain, but their list traffic, 
while very low compared to the TML, does seem to indicate that.

Slight problem with the MT/DGP stuff.  Due to copyright legalese, 
etc, the MT/DGP stuff cannot be used verbatim.  The names and 
concepts can be used, but the material would have to be re-written, 
as the person who owns the rights to that material cannot be found 
to give his permission to do so.  Several people have posted about it 
here on the TML in the past.  That's the only thing I think that 
stands in the way.

At any rate, if you're really interested in seeing a Traveller 
Products CD happen, get on the Traveller CD mailing list and offer to 
help them out.  I'm sure Brian would love the extra help on this 
project.

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:58:03 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/17/99 12:31:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu writes:

<< If I were a ship designer I would reserve the
 "destroyer" name for ships with some anti-capital-ship punch, "escort" 
 or "frigate" for others. >>

That's what I do. If my sub-cruiser designs have a spinal mount, it's a
frigate/destroyer. If they don't have a spinal mount (and especially if they
don't have bays...) they are escorts. It works, sort of...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:21:37 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

>> The problem is that at TL9, the tanks will have individual point-defense
>> systems (at least if FS is anywhere near the contract), allowing them to
>> shred a lot of incoming artillery fire.
>
>Unless arty improves significantly it isn't a serious threat to armor, much
>less grav armor, and point defense isn't needed for a line MBT, though
>possibly specialized support units might maintain some.


I would tend to disagree.  Extrapolating some of our current technologies, I
can see fin stabilized artillery munitions incorporating terminal guidence
and a variety of warhead packages to fit the shell to the job.  For example,
how about warheads incorporating chemical-powered lasers for stand-off
kills?  EW shells to provide jamming and deception services to the warhead
shells following?  Carrier shells that 'seed' minefields with munitions
designed to damage/destroy the underside grav plates.  Carrier shells that
'seed' sensors over a large area.

These shells would not be cheap, but I think that many of the same
principles that we apply to ship-to-ship missiles are perfectly adaptable to
an environment where MBTs cost as much as a small starship.

>
>Arty needs fire direction.  Odds are incredibly against a ranging shot
(much
>less a blind barrage) landing on a tank.  You seen one round plop in front
of
>you, then another plop behind you, you're in deep do-do.  lol.  When you
see
>those ranging shots, you button up and notify on the net that arty has been
>observed, and it location by coordinates (NOT "someones shooting at us!",
>which will only get a full barrage put on you when the enemy commanders
tell
>their arty to keep doing whatever their doing) and then you go to high
speed
>and spread out, having manuever/recon elements search obvious locations for
>the forward observer/ fire director and ruin his whole day.  Meanwhile Air
>looks for a puff of smoke or something indicative of where the arty shots
are
>coming from and either delivers their own ordnance or tells friendly arty
>where to put their ranging shots.


Again, this assumes dumb shells.  Smart shells with internal guidence, or an
external targeting device feeding information to the shell would change the
whole concept of a 'ranging shot'.  More likely, the first shot would be a
killing one.

Admitably, this is an environment where a FO would not have a long
lifespan - but then again, this is where the deployment of robotic FO's
armed with targeting lasers would be *very* cost effective.  Properly timed,
the first warning a MBT would have that it is being painted by a targeting
laser would be when the shell is already in the air and requiring terminal
guidence.  The shell would only need enough time with the laser to identify
the target, and lock on.  Still, I don't believe any given FO would be able
to paint many targets before being destroyed themselves.

With smartshells, harrassment fire could be considerably more deadly.  A
anti-armor shell is fired blind into any given area with several criteria to
search for - AFV, APC, bunker, etc...  It continues along it's ballistic
path until it finds a target that matches it's search criteria, then goes
into terminal mode.  Otherwise, it impacts at the end of it's flight - still
makes a boom and keeps people reminded that the Imperium loves them.

The other side of this, obviously, will be counters to the tactics I
described here.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:22:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Assisting SayBoom in Going Green

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Ian or Katts wrote:

> Weeee reckon-weckon that if youuuu put a biggie-wiggie probe-wobe into the
> uuuuuuser, then then then you could take advantage of the heat
> differential-wifferential between the inteeeeerior of the uuuuser an an an
> the exteeeernal atmosphere.
> 
> Weeeee reckon that if you dropped the core temperature-wemperature of the
> uuuuuser by threeeee degweees, then you could get the power-wower to help
> out the weeeeeeasels.

Ditzie, what sort of clubs have you and your crechemates been going to?
Obviously things have moved beyond the placid days of the Fusion+ raves.

(This sounds sick and disgusting and highly appropriate for the late Third
Imperium.)

(And for what it's worth, I've been picturing Ditzie all along as a
late-teenage shaven-headed creature of male sex if not gender, dressed out
of the 45th-55th century Diesel catalogue, with the biiiiiiiiigest pupils
you ever did see.)

> We're goanna catch an Accountant-wountant an an an have them assist us with
> our enquiries.

Are they actually warm-blooded?  

> I weckon it's one of the neaaaaatest things to come out of the niiiice
> Sayat ladies since .... since .... since ... the last thing they
> shoooooowwwwwwed us.

Heh heh.  There's something else we wanna show you.  Heh heh.  Soon.  Heh.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:23:20 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
>
> This brings to mind grav armor tactics.  In general, in today's
> TL8 military realities, if you hit an aircraft, it goes down.
> Aircraft survive by speed and manueverability, not their ability
> to take punishment.  Of course, there are exceptions (A-10 comes
> to mind), but it's gotta be alot different for Traveller.  Grav
> tanks can take a pounding and dish it out too, and seem likely to
> render conventional artillery ineffective.  For that matter,
> infantry would have to become more specialized, too, in favor of
> urban combat and other specialized roles.  Grav armor tactics are
> probably a blend of aircraft and armor tactics.  Combine flight,
> high speed, and massive armor and firepower and you have something
> unlike anything we know of.  Heavily armed and armored lift vehicles
> seem destined to be the queen of battle...
>
> Does anyone familiar w/ OGRE or the Renegade Legion stuff by FASA
> have anything relevant or any light to shed here?  

In OGRE, the ground effect vehicle (GEV) is a high mobility unit
that inflicts a bit of damage and then scurries away.  Running in
wolf packs, they are deadly.  Careful tactics can even nit pick
an OGRE to death.

The ultimate expression of mobile death are the Mark XXXIII Bolos.
They combine the mobility of the grav tank and the durability of an
OGRE with the reflexes/accuracy of the best AIs known to man.
[Later Bolos used contra-gravity that allowed them to zip around
 the battle field at 500 kph.]

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:27:14 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: For the "humor challenged"

Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>Quite true; the bar is a sci-fantasy staple...Glenn Cook used them many
>times
>in his Black Company series. Interesting things always happened in bars...
>
>Ob Trav: use them in adventures...

Yup, that's why _my_ characters always meet at a family restaurant to do
their plotting. The noise level's higher, but the threat level's lower :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:29:08 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: For the "humor challenged"

"E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk> types out on his weasel powered
terminal:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>> The generic bar bit was what we on this planet call "a joke."
>> Hmmm..instead of naming the bartender "Guy", call him "Joe"
>> as in "Joe Generio".
>They call him Joe Public over here.

   "Joe Generio" was character used by one of the RPG trade rags a while back.
He was the "average character" used to test system rules.  In CT terms he had
stats of 777777.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:38:24 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality

Come on TL9!


- -- quote from MSNBC --

First compact 'fuel-cell' car unveiled

March 17 -  DaimlerChrysler on Wednesday unveiled a
breakthrough on the road towards replacing gasoline and
the internal combustion engine with a power source that
emits only water vapor. For the first time, "fuel-cell"
technology has been made small enough to fit into a
compact car. The NECAR 4 concept car seats five, goes
280 miles before refueling, travels as fast as 90 mph and,
yes, emits only water vapor as an exhaust.

- -- end quote --

The NECAR 4 uses liquid hydrogen for fuel but production
models will probably use methanol due to cost and safety
issues. I mean, come on, can you really see trying to
skim a gas giant in a Chrysler? :-P

For the full story and some vehicle specifications, go to:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/250873.asp

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:39:25 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

Michel R Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes:
>>How about a separate table or dice-roll, that tells you how many times to
>>roll on the ethnic table?  If all your rolls happen to hit the same
>>ethnicity, then you're one of those boring monocultural people who only
>>get to celebrate one set of holidays a year :-)
>
>        Hi, again, Rob!  This sounds like a good way to do it....  So,
>how about
>
>        1d
>        1-3 ...  Both parents same ethnic background
>        4-5 ...  Each parent from different ethnic backgrounds (roll twice
>on table)
>         6  ...  Each parent and one grand-parent from different ethnic
>backgrounds (roll three times on table)
>
>        ...Given that we're only talking about little more than a century
>from now, having 50% of parents from the same background seems to make
>sense, with the other 50% being poly-cultural.

Look OK to me. Or you could make it a 3d table, with different mods for
different centuries, to indicate changing demographics.
>
>>Seriously, that depends on whether your future history has nationalities
>>being preserved or not. _My_ Traveller universe doesn't, but that
>reflects
>>my personal experiences (and bias).
>
>        Given that nationalism has been entrenched in people's mindsets
>(take the Balkans... they are fighting about countries which haven't
>existed
>for half a century), I figure it will take more than a century (3-4
>generations) to beat it out of Terran collective conciousness.  Heck,
>IMTU,
>they've even fought a war over the issue...

True. I guess I'm (a) hopeful, and (b) assuming that those people are
mostly faceless NPCs.

>
>>I would concentrate on the cultural aspects, and ignore things like skin
>>pigmentation. My friend Eddie (Korean) is darker than my colleague Jackie
>>(black), while his sister Jennie is paler than me...
>
>        The problem with this statement is that while *I* am willing to
>surf
>the Net and dig up a real name for someone from Tahiti (NPC in my TNEC
>PBEM
>game is named Te-'ura), most folks aren't.  When the ref adds "Ethnic"
>flavour to the game, people work from the minds eye...  Skin colour,
>typical
>hair-color, body-frame, etc.  So, to some degree, while my table does not
>say "You are from a Black North American Heritage, therefore you are
>ebony-skinned", I am sure some folks will read it that way...  Because
>that
>is their experience.
[snip]
>
>        Take a guess what she looks like....  Dad was Russian, Mom was
>Southern US (both UN Diplomats).

Then include a note that this is _typical_ appearance, with some idea of
how far actual appearance varies. 

>
>>>        Let me guess... you are in Toronto, right?
>>
>>Yup.
>>
>
>        I thought so...  I've only encountered that POV in MTL, TO and
>VAN.
>While it is wonderfully refreshing, it's scarce.

I've encountered it everywhere. More common in areas where people actually
get to meet those who look different, but not that uncommon.  Mind you,
I'm a (somewhat cynical) optimist...

>
>>>        Here in Halifax, two friends of mine had a lot of grief from
>those
>>>around them while they were dating...  he is black and she is white. 
>>>Grief
>>>that including physical violence from strangers.
>>
>>This _is_ something I think about every time I consider moving outside
>>Toronto. Vancouver seems fairly reasonable, and there's always
>Trinidad...
>>(Judging by my friends and their relatives here, Trinidadians seem like
>>singularly tolerant people--and the women are all drop-dead gorgeous! Not
>>a representative sample, I'll admit.)
>
>        This is actually one reason I might be moving *to* Toronto/ GTA. 
>I
>don't want my son growing up down here with the closet racism that is part
>of NS life.  That and better money.
>        As for Trinidadian women -- Nope, they are pretty much all that
>stunning...  

I'd ignore the money aspect. Toronto is also a lot more expensive to live
in. Eg. my house cost almost $200k -- the same money in Ottawa would by me
an acreage, and still be closer to downtown.  Steve and Richard can give
you a better idea about Vancouver (which is a nicer place to live, too --
I'm trying to move there).  But this is straying off-Traveller (unless
someone on the list is in charge of hiring Vancounver teachers!).
>
>>Among the many things I have to thank my grandparents for is the way they
>>raised my parents _without_ the casual racism that was common in Britain.
>>Life alone among the anglos would be so frigging _boring_!
>>
>
>        Je suis d'accord, mon amis.
>
>        Thanks for the wonderful discussion, BTW...  This kind of exchange
>of POV's and ideas is why I subscribe to the TML...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:50:03 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
from the web if you want me to!

Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:49:10 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth

David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au> wrote:
>Anyway, on to the announcement (and reason for my delayed reply):
>	"David and Leanne are pleased to announce the arrival of their
>	second child, James Alan. Weighing in at 8 lb 3 oz*, he came
>	into the world at 8.12 am on Saturday 6 March 1999. Mother
>	pleased with the 5-hour labour (beats the previous 22hr ordeal)."
>
>	"Mother and child both doing well." ;-)

Congratulations!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:53:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Grav tank tactics

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>Does anyone familiar w/ OGRE or the Renegade Legion stuff by FASA have
>anything relevant or any light to shed here?

OGRE - Big Nasty Armoured Cybertank; Run away quickly.

Ob Trav: An Ogre with Virus?

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:44:01 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?

In a message dated 3/17/99 1:08:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
perceval01@hotmail.com writes:

<< 
 My preliminary thoughts were running along the line of:
 Milieu 0 Campaign
 Starships
 FFSv2
 and a fourth book.
  >>

		Definitely buy the Emperor's Arsenal--weapons of all tech levels
		And  Central Supply Cataloge (contains vehicle desing and lots of
			equipment)

		but DO NOT  buy the Emperor's Vehicles --designs are inadequately described
and not rated for tech level!

	(Starships isn't that good, since many of the desgins are in the main book
and a big chuink is taken up with color artwork plates that just duplicate the
cover art of other books)


	I'd suggest:  Mileau O campaign, Empr's Arsenal, Central Supply Cat and maybe
FFS2 if you're a real gearhead--if you are  only a dilettente,skip it.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:06:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
> think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
> of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
> from the web if you want me to!

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!  Thanks - that's great!

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:01:32 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth

Congrads!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:17:16 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Don't you DARE take that down!!!

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: What DOES Ditzie look like?


>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with
some
>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>from the web if you want me to!
>
>Jesse
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:08:40 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

In a message dated 3/17/99 1:51:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:

<< Does anyone familiar w/ OGRE or the Renegade Legion stuff by FASA have
 anything relevant or any light to shed here?  
 
  >>

I liked the way the Grav tanks entered atmosphere in Renagade Legion, and the
combat interactions between grav tanks and fighters...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:21:08 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Kewl hope she's on our side.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 2:52 PM
Subject: What DOES Ditzie look like?


>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with
some
>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>from the web if you want me to!
>
>Jesse
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:22:19 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: skimming time

This may have been turned over before I subscibed to the TML, but does
anybody have any ideas on how long it takes to fill the tanks of a skimming
starship? How about pumping water? Refueling at a lowport? Highport? I'm CT
all the way, but the times should not be affected by system.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:21:44 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: starport photo's

if you are technologically dominant, get the babylon 5 pilot epi, and do
some snapshot computer captures. they have the greatest starport extras!
there is even a tourist in yellow bermuda shorts walking around. 
You can either fire off a letter to the Bab people, or alter the photo so
that no one/place is recognizable. For one of my Live action plays, I took
the Mechwarrior Computer Game (First one with the clans) boxed cover
scanned (the picture of the Mech waitting outside the docking bay) it in,
then fitted each players picture in the corner. Looked really cool, took a
while.

P.S. if you are scandalized by my suggestion, E-mail me off list and I will
reply. Don't take up space on list flaming me.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:20:09 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Burtoine-class Escort Fighter (GTL10)

Burtoine-class Escort Fighter (GTL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: pilot


30-ton USL Hull, DR 800, PD 4, Fixed-Mount Missile Rack, 2 Fixed-Mount
Lasers, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Cockpit,
Engineering, 26 Maneuver, no cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.8 million km, Laser 1.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 16000 km, AESA 80000 km, Radscanner 1600 km
2 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32726 km, MxRng 98618
km, FP 4
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 268.9 tonnes, LMass 268.9 tonnes, Cost MCr 11.5, HP 6000
Performance: Accel 3.5 G (3.5 G empty, 3.5 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air
Speed 0 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

STRUCTURE                         Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
30-ton hull                       (30.0)       3.6       0.2     371.6    
  0.0
Airtight sealing                     0.0       0.0       0.0       0.0    
  0.0
Armour: DR800, PD4                   0.0     145.1       1.9       0.0    
  0.0
Basic stealth                        0.0       0.9       0.3       0.0    
  0.0
Basic emission cloaking              0.0       0.9       0.3       0.0    
  0.0
DRIVE MODULES                     Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Maneuver drive (3.5G)               26.0      80.2       4.2       0.0    
  0.4
WEAPON MODULES                    Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Missile Rack                         1.0      11.8       0.0       0.0    
  0.0
2 360-MJ Lasers                      2.0      21.8       2.1       0.0    
  0.0
WORKSPACE MODULES                 Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Hardened Cockpit                     1.0       4.6       2.5       0.0    
  1.0
MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS               Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Missiles                             0.0       0.0       2.5       0.0    
  0.0
TOTALS                            Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out           30.0     268.9      14.0     371.6    
  1.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew         30.0     268.9      11.5     371.6    
  1.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #300
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 301



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Velroi-class Escort Destroyer (GTL10)
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Uses for decommissioned starships
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: Uses for decommissioned starships
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth
FS FwdObsvr Ops (was Re: Grav tank tactics)
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules
Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #300
Player Safe Zones (was Re: For the "humor challenged")
Re: PBEM Opening
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
H&K G11
Re: Smallest Jump Capable Vessel
Re: On IISS Patches...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:20:37 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Velroi-class Escort Destroyer (GTL10)

Velroi-class Escort Destroyer (GTL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: 3 bridge crew, 19 engineers, 20 gunners, 9 auxiliary crew


2000-ton USL Hull, DR 2000, PD 4, Heavy compartmentalization, 10 Turrets
with 3 missile racks each, 10 Turrets with 3 lasers each, Basic stealth,
Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Command Bridge, Engineering, 1000
Maneuver, 60 Jump, 400 Fuel, Fuel Processor (50.0 hours), 26 Staterooms, 4
Utility, Spacedock (8 Burtoine Escort Fighters, Gig), 45 cargo

Communicators: Radio 8 million km, Laser 16 million km, Meson 0.2 million
km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
30 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32726 km, MxRng
98618 km, FP 4
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 11580.9 tonnes, LMass 13977.4 tonnes, Cost MCr 567.4, HP
114000
Performance: Accel 2.6 G (3.1 G empty, 2.5 G overloaded), Jump 2, Air
Speed 0 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

STRUCTURE                         Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
2000-ton hull                   (2000.0)      54.4       3.0    5574.2    
  0.0
Airtight sealing                     0.0       0.0       0.8       0.0    
  0.0
Armour: DR2000, PD4                  0.0    6893.2      91.2       0.0    
  0.0
Heavy compartmentalization           0.0       5.4       0.1       0.0    
  0.0
20 turrets (60 spaces)              20.0      15.0       0.8    1486.4    
 20.0
Basic stealth                        0.0      17.2       5.7       0.0    
  0.0
Basic emission cloaking              0.0      17.2       5.7       0.0    
  0.0
DRIVE MODULES                     Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Engineering module                   1.0       3.7       0.3       0.0    
  0.0
Jump drive (2 parsecs)              60.0     217.7     186.0       0.0    
  2.4
Jump tanks                         400.0     471.6      64.0       0.0    
  0.0
Maneuver drive (2.6G)             1000.0    3083.8     160.0       0.0    
 16.7
Fuel processor module (50.0 ho       1.0       1.0       0.9       0.0    
  0.0
WEAPON MODULES                    Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
30 Missile Racks                  (30.0)     353.7       0.5       0.0    
  0.0
30 360-MJ Lasers                  (30.0)     326.5      30.9       0.0    
  0.0
WORKSPACE MODULES                 Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Hardened Command Bridge              5.0      21.1      15.6       0.0    
  3.0
4 utility modules                    4.0      41.7       1.2       0.0    
  0.0
Spacedock                          360.0       0.9       0.0       0.0    
  0.0
Hold                                45.0       0.0       0.0       0.0    
  0.0
ACCOMMODATION MODULES             Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
26 staterooms                      104.0      56.6       0.3       0.0    
  0.0
MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS               Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Fuel                             (400.0)       0.0       0.1       0.0    
  0.0
Cargo                             (45.0)   (204.1)       0.0       0.0    
  0.0
8 Burtoine Escort Fighters       (160.0)  (2151.2)    (92.0)       0.0    
  8.0
Gig                               (20.0)    (41.2)     (5.5)       0.0    
  1.0
Missiles                             0.0       0.0      73.8       0.0    
  0.0
TOTALS                            Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area    
 Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out         2000.0   13977.4     738.8    7060.6    
 51.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew       2000.0   11580.9     567.4    7060.6    
 22.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:26:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

At 02:50 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>from the web if you want me to!

Perfect!

How many beers do I need to buy you at BayCon to get you to draw Arameth
Gridlore?

(Note to self.. tell wife I will be in quiet bar all weekend...)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:33:23 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships

>> Plus there's always the old faithful prison hulk. Imagine trying to escape
>> from something like that! Tough enough to swim the freezing San Francisco
>> Bay from Alcatraz, but how the heck are you gonna escape from a block of
>> metal in space? I don't imagine personal reentry kits are found by the
>> dozen on an orbital prison facility.
>
>Cool idea, but it seems kind of pricey just for keeping prisoners on, what
>with life support, supply delivery, etc. Unless it was some kind of
>self-sustaining biosphere and the prisoners had to keep *themselves*
>alive... now *that* might inspire some development of cooperation,hmm?
>
>Brannon

Or it's a high law level world and the prison's for *reeeaaaallly*
dangerous criminals. Sounds like a great place to drop some PCs and have
them try to figure out how to escape! ;-)

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:25:06 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

In a message dated 3/17/99 3:01:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, dom@cybergoths.u-
net.com writes:

<< OGRE - Big Nasty Armoured Cybertank; Run away quickly.
 
 Ob Trav: An Ogre with Virus?
  >>

How would an Ogre with the Decartes package (true self aware AI sentience...)
do against virus (fighting off the infection...) ?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:32:19 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships

	A large decomissioned ship would make a great gambling casino.   Since it is
off world, it can be technically in Imperial jurisdiction, so if gambling is
outlawed on planet, an off-world site could get some good business.  Likewise,
since the ticket would be a factor in attendence, it would attract "high
rollers" and keep out the riff-raff.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:40:34 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

TravelrTNE@aol.com

>Grav armor tactics are probably a blend of
>aircraft and armor tactics.  Combine flight, high speed, and massive armor
and
>firepower and you have something unlike anything we know of.  Heavily armed
>and armored lift vehicles seem destined to be the queen of battle...

I'm pretty late to this thread, so if this has already been mentioned,
forgive me. David Drake's "Hammer's Slammers" has a pretty excellent story
or two on using hovertanks. Now, these are more like hovercraft than grav
tanks. They don't fly like planes or anything. But they do go over just
about anything and they're quick. In particular, the short story,
"Hangman," from the first Slammers book comes to mind when visualizing grav
tank combat.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:47:05 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth

At 08:12 AM 18/03/99 +1100, you wrote:
>Anyway, on to the announcement (and reason for my delayed reply):
>	"David and Leanne are pleased to announce the arrival of their
>	second child, James Alan. Weighing in at 8 lb 3 oz*, he came
>	into the world at 8.12 am on Saturday 6 March 1999. Mother
>	pleased with the 5-hour labour (beats the previous 22hr ordeal)."
>
>	"Mother and child both doing well." ;-)

        <APPLAUSE & CHEERING>
        Congratulations!

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:47:06 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: FS FwdObsvr Ops (was Re: Grav tank tactics)

At 04:45 PM 17/03/99 EST, you wrote:
>> The problem is that at TL9, the tanks will have individual point-defense
>> systems (at least if FS is anywhere near the contract), allowing them to
>> shred a lot of incoming artillery fire. 
>
>Unless arty improves significantly it isn't a serious threat to armor, much
>less grav armor, and point defense isn't needed for a line MBT, though
>possibly specialized support units might maintain some.  
>
>Arty needs fire direction.  Odds are incredibly against a ranging shot (much
>less a blind barrage) landing on a tank.  You seen one round plop in front of
>you, then another plop behind you, you're in deep do-do.  lol.  When you see
>those ranging shots, you button up and notify on the net that arty has been
>observed, and it location by coordinates (NOT "someones shooting at us!",
>which will only get a full barrage put on you when the enemy commanders tell
>their arty to keep doing whatever their doing) and then you go to high speed
>and spread out, having manuever/recon elements search obvious locations for
>the forward observer/ fire director and ruin his whole day.  Meanwhile Air
>looks for a puff of smoke or something indicative of where the arty shots are
>coming from and either delivers their own ordnance or tells friendly arty
>where to put their ranging shots.
>

        The problem with this, Gary, is you missed the original gun's
spec...  4000m/sec flight speed with a hail range of 100km, with the shells
massing 30kgs and landing every 1.5 secs.  If the rounds were
laser-designated fin-steered (a la copperhead), your tank unit gets wiped
out in 30 seconds as 20 rounds each find targets with the destructive force
of a quarter ton of TNT per.
        The air force?  No puffs, because its a gauss weapon 100kms away
surrounded by SAM sites and interceptors.  
        Speed up and spread out?  Nope.  Those rounds are rolling in at
4000m/sec every 1.5 seconds.  The guy with the painter is under camo with
his designator a 1/2km away and can just keep painting you until he hits
you.  With each shell doing KEAP damage like a quarter-ton of TNT, even a
close miss is going to be giving your crews the heebee-geebees.  In an open
field, yeah, maybe you'd get a few of your guys behind enough smoke screen
that the guy with the painter would call off the hail storm until the smoke
cleared a little...  a restricted killing zone, he'll fill with shells just
to break your morale.
        Against conventional arty, you are 100% correct.  Against the FS
Longtom, uh-uh.
        JMHO, YMMV, YAAA, BYE.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:45:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

>Pictures.  Right.  We got a lecture on what we could not do.  No pictures.
>No sketches.  We were searched before being allowed into the demo area.
>GSG9 is as paranoid as SEAL Team 6 or the SAS.


Sounds like the infamous annual Delta Force briefing in the service.  "We
can't tell ya what you'll be trained to do, where you will be trained, who
will teach you, or how long it will take.  So, you wanna try out?"

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:27:55 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules

	The AD&D Core Rules CD can be tweaked to produce "Who's in the Bar?"
encounters. If you set it up right you can print up a pile of these and use
them when needed.   I suppose a Traveller CD could be set up in a similar
fashion.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:52:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

On the other hand, I just got this ad...

   Quality embroidered active wear is a great gift idea!
*High Quality Custom embroidered active wear at great prices.
*Custom Embroidered 100% Cotton Golf Shirt 19.00 ea.
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*Custom Embroidered 80/20 Sweat Shirt 18.00 ea.
*Custom Embroidered 50/50 Golf Shirts 16.00 ea.
*Quality American made apparel.
*Prices include heart size embroidered Logo up to 6 colors and
all set up and shipping charges. CMI will digitize your
group or corporate logo at no charge. 1000's of stock designs
availible. CMI has a stock design to fit any project.
*CMI ships custom design embroidered apparel in 10 working days.
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*All orders embroidered in and shipped from Pennsylvania,U.S.A.
*No minimum purchase required. Volume discounts available.
*Personalized clothing is a great gift or corporate award.
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*Please contact CMI directly by fax. Removal information below:
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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To be removed from future mailings email Worldgo at:
bela@iloveindia.com with "Remove" in the subject line.
Thank you,Worldgo Marketing,407 Kwain Krumah Ave.,Accra,Ghana
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

- -----Original Message-----
From: Shawn @ Electric Stitch <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...


>When you go to get embroidered patches, t-shirts and hats, the embroiderer
>is going to need a program for the machine to run the design. They are
going
>to charge a set-up fee or a "digitizing" fee for each design. These charges
>can range from $50 to $200 US. The reason I am saying this, is I am an
>independant "digitizer" (the person the embroiderer pays that fee to
program
>the design). For the simple fact that I love traveller, I will offer any
>traveller discount programming for their embroidered goods. Feel free to
>price it out at your local embroiderer... and then ask me to beat the
price!
>Wouldn't you want your design made by someone who loves traveller as much
as
>you rather than some guy who's never heard of it?
>
>Shawn Campbell
>Electric Stitch Digitizing
>electric-stitch@w-link.net
>http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 9:27 AM
>Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...
>
>
>>At 09:43 AM 3/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>>Frank Pitt wrote:
>>>> Well, I'm going into a local badge manufacturer tomoorrow to see how
>much
>>>> they'll charge to produce the Exploration Branch badges.
>>>
>>>When you find out, I would be interested in getting a few myself.  :)
>>> (Probably three, depending on cost.)
>>
>>I think that we could probably get a pretty good order up.  Find out what
>>the rate is on bulk orders.
>>
>>>> Hadn't thought of the cap, largely because caps aren't particularly
>>common >>on a flight line, but that would be another place to put one.
Now,
>>all we
>>>>need is the T-shirt design for the Spinward Marches Exploration Branch
>>>>Grav-Ball team or some other T-Shirt design suitable for a scout
>>>
>>>Or maybe "Property of Rhylanor Jump Institute Athletic Department" in
>>>white letters on a blue T-shirt.
>>
>>When I was but a lad, I would get a custom t-shirt for my birthday.  Soon
>>after Alien Book 4 came out, we went to Dale's Shirt Wheel, and I got a t
>>that declared Tavrchsedle' in big black letters.  Confused the clerk.  To
>>this day, one of my friends calls me Traveller because of the black and
red
>>Traveller shirt I wore every other day.
>>
>>>Or even "I made First Contact at (insert world/subsector here) and
>>>all I got was this lousy T-shirt"  :)
>>>
>>>> ( why does a Led Zeppelin or Harley Davidson t-shirt, or that black one
>>with
>>>> the words "Shit Happens" in large friendly letters seem appropriate ? )
>>>
>>>Sounds cool.  You might also consider something from the "Laser
>>>Dancer" nugget posted a few months back.  A concert T-shirt from a
>>>futuristic group or entertainment style would be cool, but probably
>>>too expensive.
>>
>>VeedBack  (from "Roadshow" by John Ford")
>>
>>
>>>> I already have the unkempt beard, the Pilot sunglasses, the jeans, and
>the
>>>> insanity .
>>
>>>Now, that conjures a better image for an Exploration Scout.  Cool!
>>>Throw in either long hair or a flattop hair style, and you've got it!
>>
>>check out the photo on my homepage.
>>--
>>
>>Doug Berry
>>dberry@hooked.net
>>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:43:49 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

At 11:59 AM 3/17/99 , Douglas Glatz wrote:
>>>Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
>>>unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
>>>for political reasons, not practical ones.
>>
>>They are in reserve status because of money and manpower issues.  Because
>>the Navy failed to update the engineering and firecontrol systems when they
>>modernized the ships in the eighties it requires a disproportional number
>of
>>sailors to man these ships.  The enginerooms and firerooms could have been
>>updated with the same technology that allows power companies to keep
>seventy
>>year old steam power plants in operation today with a fraction of the
>people
>>it took to operate them when they were built.
>>In the face of declining manpower and money the Navy could not continue to
>>operate these ships.
>
>
>The cost to cut through the armor belt to access engineering would have been
>prohibitive - not to mention that the skill set needed to weld that armor
>has been lost.  From what I understood, anything less than a full conversion
>to BBN was not practical.

Well when she was in the LBNSY(Long Beach Naval Ship Yard), they used 
"plasma arcs' to cut thru the armor belt, they had no problem putting back 
the armor. Essentially they "cut" out section, then lifted it out, when 
finished inside, put back the section and welded it back.

Part of why the projected costs were high was number of heavily armored 
bulkheads along "Broadway".

As for losing the skills, they just reactivated some "extremely" old 
retired sailors and a few yard workers of even older retirement status.<G> 
Talk about some surprised and pissed off individuals.

At that time I was serving on a US ship in the "yards" and employed by the 
shipyard to work on the New Jersey.

>The fire control suite was upgraded, what was not was the ammunition
>handling systems.  After the IOWA turret incident, I saw some documentation
>about converting the main guns from bagged powder to a injected 2-component
>plastic explosive propellent, but the decision to decommission the four BBs
>was made instead.

For changing out the ammo handling for the main guns, none was needed. 
Using "properly" trained, and supervised sailors, using the properly stored 
and handled powder. The reason for the turret incident was twofold some of 
the powder was improperly stored on shore, ie not temperature controlled 
becoming less stable than it should have been, and a "senior" handling 
person was experimenting using nonstandard loading procedures.

As for going to binary plastic explosives for propellant, I would have 
liked to have seen the method/plans for the that. The breach was/is big 
enough for me to lay down in, I did just that too. Talk about drilling 
holes in some tough metal, and the pressures that the "plumbing" fixtures 
would have to withstand.

>It is a sad truth that the BBs are TL5 relics in a TL8 world.  I've always
>regretted that I did not tour the IOWA when we were moored across from her.

If you get chance go on a tour, do it, "impressive" is an understatement.


Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:58:03 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #300

>>>>
Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what
I
think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with
some
of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove
it
from the web if you want me to!

Jesse
>>>>
What?  Not a blonde?  I definitely think of Ditzie as a blonde.  [Now
don't get me wrong, I like blonds - hey, I'm MARRIED to a blonde!]
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:59:59 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Player Safe Zones (was Re: For the "humor challenged")

At 05:27 PM 17/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>>Quite true; the bar is a sci-fantasy staple...Glenn Cook used them many
>>times
>>in his Black Company series. Interesting things always happened in bars...
>>
>>Ob Trav: use them in adventures...
>
>Yup, that's why _my_ characters always meet at a family restaurant to do
>their plotting. The noise level's higher, but the threat level's lower :-)
>

        My CP2020 players tried that.  All that happened is that the head
hitman for the Bad Guys walked in, sat down with them, and explained to them
that if they didn't come quietly, his 30-man Ops team out side in three vans
was going kill every last innocent civvie in the place in a hail of bullets
and RPG-A fire that would make the screamsheets for months.
        The team went quietly.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:01:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: PBEM Opening

Yeah, I almost signed on but then I saw that the Sarah "Buffy" Gellar
character was in another campaign...  : )

- --Clif


> Hello, everyone!
> My TNEC PBEM is now "full" again;  both available slots are now
>filled.
> I must say I am startled by how fast you can recruit players on
>this list.  Thanks, everyone!


...though, Alysson Hannigan and Charisma Carpenter are by far, finer looking
babes, in my opinion...  That C.C. could have me whipped with just a smile
and that's not a position I like to be in.  I'd be a moth to the flame.  I
bet that girl gives a black hole's attraction a run for its money!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:53:14 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

At 12:39 PM 3/17/99 , SD Mooney wrote:

>Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>
>>Yes, but, from what I've been told since moving here, IOWA would never
>>make it past the US 190 bridge over the Mississippi in north Baton
>>Rouge.  Supposedly, Gov. Huey P. Long decreed that the bridge should be
>>built too low to allow ocean-going vessels to pass under, in order to
>>ensure that no river city north of Baton Rouge could become a seaport.
>
>One last hurrah for the 16" ers?

Dom,

Dealing the pieces that the 16 in would make of the bridge would be minor 
problem, just don't miss by too much.<G> But I know some of the Cajun river 
fishermen would not mind a few misses to increase their "catch of the day".

Hmm how many catfish will a 2000 pound high explosive round stun/kill and 
at what radius?

Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:10:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: H&K G11

The bullet doesn't make the turn.  The cartwheel/carousel/chamber does...
In other words, the same housing that puts the round in place for firing is
the same piece that IS the chamber.

>Bullets going through a ninety degree turn in two axes is simple?

Two axes?  Try one.
>
>>It actually has LESS moving parts than most weapons.  And I've never heard
>>anything about the weapon's function being the problem.  Just the ammo.
H&K
>>claims that it worked all of that out and that during tests, the solid
>>propellant was subjected to crushing, dropping a magazine from an
aircraft,
>>etc.
>
>Insensitive munitions are no big deal.

They are if rumors abound that the ammo won't make it in the field.  Also,
the rounds have no brass to protect their propellant, so this SOLID
PROPELLANT is what can survive the shock.  Ever played with Model Rockets?
Try dropping a D-size engine (with a cardboard somewhat protective tubing)
from an aircraft and see how the solid propellant IN it fares!
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:11:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump Capable Vessel

Now THAT is a cool idea! 

- --Clif


>Under TL21, you can build a jump capable space suit.
>
>The design is squirred away on my web site somewhere,
>probably easier to find from the Gearhead page.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/
>
>I didn't design it, I just liked it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:14:42 -0800
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

Well, their's always someone cheaper...

...just thought someone might want to help support another traveller rather
than some huge corporation.

BTW: If anyone is still interested in having designs digitized by me, I will
work in trade for Out-of-print traveller material.

Shawn Campbell
Electric Stitch Digitizing
electric-stitch@w-link.net
http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...


>On the other hand, I just got this ad...
>
>   Quality embroidered active wear is a great gift idea!
>*High Quality Custom embroidered active wear at great prices.
>*Custom Embroidered 100% Cotton Golf Shirt 19.00 ea.
>*Custom Embroidered Satin,Quilt lined Jacket 45.00 ea.
>*Custom Embroidered 80/20 Sweat Shirt 18.00 ea.
>*Custom Embroidered 50/50 Golf Shirts 16.00 ea.
>*Quality American made apparel.
>*Prices include heart size embroidered Logo up to 6 colors and
>all set up and shipping charges. CMI will digitize your
>group or corporate logo at no charge. 1000's of stock designs
>availible. CMI has a stock design to fit any project.
>*CMI ships custom design embroidered apparel in 10 working days.
>*CMI ships stock design embroidered apparel in 5 working days.
>*All orders embroidered in and shipped from Pennsylvania,U.S.A.
>*No minimum purchase required. Volume discounts available.
>*Personalized clothing is a great gift or corporate award.
>*CMI creates top of the line customized products at low
>prices with no set up or shipping charges. To order or to obtain
>more information contact CMI directly by fax at: 1-650-617-3754
>(Attn:Barbara)Please include your email address in correspondence.
>*Please contact CMI directly by fax. Removal information below:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>This quality offer presented by Worldgo Marketing.
>To be removed from future mailings email Worldgo at:
>bela@iloveindia.com with "Remove" in the subject line.
>Thank you,Worldgo Marketing,407 Kwain Krumah Ave.,Accra,Ghana
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #301
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 302



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: skimming time
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re; What DOES Ditzie look like?
The Traveller Burrito File
Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: Re; What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: PBEM Opening
re: Beanstalks
Re: On IISS Patches...
Fudge, Fusion & Steel
FUDGEing Traveller
Cardboard Heroes
re Beanstalks
re: Grav tank tactics
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel
Re: skimming time
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam
Re: PBEM Opening

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:16:01 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: skimming time

>Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:22:19 -0500
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: skimming time
>
>This may have been turned over before I subscibed to the TML, but does
>anybody have any ideas on how long it takes to fill the tanks of a skimming
>starship? How about pumping water? Refueling at a lowport? Highport? I'm CT
>all the way, but the times should not be affected by system.
>

Supplement 5: Lightning Class Cruisers, pp. 42-43, says that (for an AHL's
400-dton fuel shuttles) one pass through a gas giant takes 3 hours per
load, refueling in an ocean 6 hours per load, and refueling from an ice cap
9-10 hours per load. Times are for complete round trips, including
transfer. It's not clear from context whether these are absolute or related
to the size of the tanks (350 dtons each); however, see below.

Adventure 5: Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 39, says:

"One pass through the gas giant's atmosphere is sufficient to fill all
tanks and takes 7 turns [2 hours 20 minutes]. Fuel may be transferred
between ships in two turns [40 minutes]."

This suggests that the times in AHL are meant to be absolute: 2:20 + 0:40 =
3:00 for one complete load.

I'd imagine the 40 minutes to transfer fuel applies betweens ports and
ships as well.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:20:02 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>>The cost to cut through the armor belt to access engineering would have
been
>>prohibitive - not to mention that the skill set needed to weld that armor
>>has been lost.  From what I understood, anything less than a full
conversion
>>to BBN was not practical.
>
>Well when she was in the LBNSY(Long Beach Naval Ship Yard), they used
>"plasma arcs' to cut thru the armor belt, they had no problem putting back
>the armor. Essentially they "cut" out section, then lifted it out, when
>finished inside, put back the section and welded it back.
>
>Part of why the projected costs were high was number of heavily armored
>bulkheads along "Broadway".


I can't remember what my source was for my information - could have just
been scuttlebutt making the rounds.

>
>As for losing the skills, they just reactivated some "extremely" old
>retired sailors and a few yard workers of even older retirement status.<G>
>Talk about some surprised and pissed off individuals.
>
>At that time I was serving on a US ship in the "yards" and employed by the
>shipyard to work on the New Jersey.
>


I was in Norfolk when the IOWA came in, and in Louisville going through
their Phalanx Block 1 upgrade school when the restored turret equipment was
shipped out.  Skill loss was a big topic of conversation at the time- and
one of the reasons that the turret almost didn't get repaired.  There was a
lot of discussion about refitting a missile launcher in place of the
turret - but the cranes needed to pull the turrets out of the BBs no longer
existed, and there was some interesting discussions about what exactly
removing one of the turrets would do to the stability of the ship.  They
ended up rebuilding the turret using the parts in place, and parts that had
been in 'storage' at the Ordinance Center in Louisville.

>
>As for going to binary plastic explosives for propellant, I would have
>liked to have seen the method/plans for the that. The breach was/is big
>enough for me to lay down in, I did just that too. Talk about drilling
>holes in some tough metal, and the pressures that the "plumbing" fixtures
>would have to withstand.

As I recall, the article was in the 'Surface Warfare' magazine - had to have
been around '88 or '89 because I was still stationed on the East Coast.  The
method was to insert the projectile, then close, but not seal the breech.
At this point, the injection harware would still have access to the ingition
chamber and they would pump in the plastique.  Once the desired amount was
injected, the breach would close the rest of  the way, locking the gun and
also isolating the injection hardware from the ignition chamber.

OBTrav: ummm...I'm thinking, I'm thinking!  :)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:27:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

So you're saying that with the DGP publications for MT that all I would have
to do is paraphrase what's there?

- --Clif

>Slight problem with the MT/DGP stuff.  Due to copyright legalese,
etc, the MT/DGP stuff cannot be used verbatim.  The names and
concepts can be used, but the material would have to be re-written,
as the person who owns the rights to that material cannot be found
to give his permission to do so.  Several people have posted about it
here on the TML in the past.  That's the only thing I think that
stands in the way.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:33:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality

>The NECAR 4 uses liquid hydrogen for fuel but production
>models will probably use methanol due to cost and safety
>issues. I mean, come on, can you really see trying to
>skim a gas giant in a Chrysler? :-P


After seeing "Heavy Metal", yes, I can!  : )

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:38:11 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Damn!  Ditzie's a #&%$ing MUFFIN!  Too bad she likes BIG GUNS...  : (  She
reminds me of some celebrity, but I can't recall who.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:30:49 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re; What DOES Ditzie look like?

I went to the page and looked..and laughed so hard I startled my cat :) That
is ABSOLUTELY what she looks like in my mind :) Hopefully Ian will agree..or
you and he can work together on a revised sketch :)

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:51:51 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: The Traveller Burrito File

Rob Prior spake unto us and advised a large swarm of pregenerated
NPCs for use when players go somewhere unexpected.  His point
is "be prepared".  Very well then, I want to compile a buncha people,
places, and things that can be used in various general settings.

Applying the Burrito Principle (80% of the meat is in 20% of the burrito),
I then deduce that picking the most commonly encountered people,
places, and things for my efforts makes the most sense; hence, the
Traveller Burrito File is created.

Phase I (the easy phase): enumerate the possibilities.
Phase II (the harder phase): build up the Burrito File with a plethora
of each item in each list.

The Most Commonly Encountered NPCs
* bartenders
* business/corporate factors
* military factors?
* nobles
* passengers!!
* starship crew
* thugs (bouncers, criminals...)
* ?

The Most Commonly Encountered Places
* bars
* corporate buildings
* the countryside?!
* estates
* hotels
* military bases
* starships (duh!)
* starports
* startowns
* ?

The Most Commonly Encountered Things
* personal technology (Central Supply Catalog)
* weaponry (take your pick of catalogues!)
* ?

Anyone want to help me put together a Traveller Burrito File?

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:50:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

I wasn't trying to undermine your business, Shawn.  Just would have felt
guilty if I had not forwarded this after receiving it such a timely moment.

- --Clif

Quality, as you say, is what counts.


>Well, their's always someone cheaper...
>
>...just thought someone might want to help support another traveller rather
>than some huge corporation.
>
>BTW: If anyone is still interested in having designs digitized by me, I
will
>work in trade for Out-of-print traveller material.
>
>Shawn Campbell
>Electric Stitch Digitizing
>electric-stitch@w-link.net
>http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 5:07 PM
>Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...
>
>
>>On the other hand, I just got this ad...
>>
>>   Quality embroidered active wear is a great gift idea!
>>*High Quality Custom embroidered active wear at great prices.
>>*Custom Embroidered 100% Cotton Golf Shirt 19.00 ea.
>>*Custom Embroidered Satin,Quilt lined Jacket 45.00 ea.
>>*Custom Embroidered 80/20 Sweat Shirt 18.00 ea.
>>*Custom Embroidered 50/50 Golf Shirts 16.00 ea.
>>*Quality American made apparel.
>>*Prices include heart size embroidered Logo up to 6 colors and
>>all set up and shipping charges. CMI will digitize your
>>group or corporate logo at no charge. 1000's of stock designs
>>availible. CMI has a stock design to fit any project.
>>*CMI ships custom design embroidered apparel in 10 working days.
>>*CMI ships stock design embroidered apparel in 5 working days.
>>*All orders embroidered in and shipped from Pennsylvania,U.S.A.
>>*No minimum purchase required. Volume discounts available.
>>*Personalized clothing is a great gift or corporate award.
>>*CMI creates top of the line customized products at low
>>prices with no set up or shipping charges. To order or to obtain
>>more information contact CMI directly by fax at: 1-650-617-3754
>>(Attn:Barbara)Please include your email address in correspondence.
>>*Please contact CMI directly by fax. Removal information below:
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>-
>>This quality offer presented by Worldgo Marketing.
>>To be removed from future mailings email Worldgo at:
>>bela@iloveindia.com with "Remove" in the subject line.
>>Thank you,Worldgo Marketing,407 Kwain Krumah Ave.,Accra,Ghana
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:52:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Re; What DOES Ditzie look like?

I wonder if she would pose on an Ack-Ack gun in lingerie?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:55:53 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: PBEM Opening

At 08:01 PM 17/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Yeah, I almost signed on but then I saw that the Sarah "Buffy" Gellar
>character was in another campaign...  : )
>
>--Clif
>
        =)
        New player, new gamer, needed a name, and guess what he had just
finished watching...

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:02:02 +0000
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: re: Beanstalks

> From:          Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> Date:          Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:48:05 -0500
> 
> Depends where the cable breaks. Also, recall that the cable is moving at
> orbital speed (it's connected to a geosynchronous anchor) - it's not going
> to "stay still" while the planet turns under it, it's going to maintain some
> of it's orbital velocity as it falls. Still, that many tons of stuff at fall-from
> -orbit velocity...

Note that the cable is only moving at orbital velocity at the normal 
geosynch orbit.  Below that point, the cable is moving below orbital 
velocity.

 
> How long is this beanstalk cable, anyway? If you broke it at the base,
> would the geosynch anchor pull it away "safely"?

The beanstalk is usually tethered to a small planetoid above the 
geosynch orbit.  The planetoid is moving faster than orbital velocity 
at it's altitude, so holds the beanstalk taut.  Also, anything 
released from the beanstalk above geosynch gets a "free" energy boost 
for getting out of the planet's gravity well.  The cable would be 
pulled away if broken at the base.  The total length depends on how 
much the planetoid masses vs the cable's mass (below geosynch) vs 
required tension, but it must be taller than geosynch.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.paralynx.com/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:02:12 -0800
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

No hard feelings Clif.

Quality certainly does matter and you get what you pay for.

Shawn Campbell
Electric Stitch Digitizing
electric-stitch@w-link.net
http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/


>I wasn't trying to undermine your business, Shawn.  Just would have felt
>guilty if I had not forwarded this after receiving it such a timely moment.
>
>--Clif
>
>Quality, as you say, is what counts.
>
>
>>Well, their's always someone cheaper...
>>
>>...just thought someone might want to help support another traveller
rather
>>than some huge corporation.
>>
>>BTW: If anyone is still interested in having designs digitized by me, I
>will
>>work in trade for Out-of-print traveller material.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:10:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Fudge, Fusion & Steel

<Peter Newman>
How about the following:

Terrible      Poor    Mediocre     Fair    Good    Great   Superb

Jump drive (standards for military ships)
no Jump Drive  Jump1    Jump2       Jump3    Jump4  Jump5   Jump6

Weapons
None          1 turret 1 tripple   lots    bay    Spinal     Death
              w/ 1      turret     of     weapons Weapon     Star
              small               turrets                    main
              laser                                          gun

Tech Level(in Milieu 1100)
stone        pre     early       average   high   TL16       Grand
knives      stellar  stellar     stellar   stellar           father
and                                                          gave
bearskins                                                    it to
                                                             me
</Peter Newman>

LOL!  Love it!  Will use it!  The TL table was the best one.


<Phil Kitching>
I'm not surprised - I had to jack the TL to 16 before I could get the
accumulator volume low enough.

Proudly presenting the 3dp laser turret, aka "The Charles Collin Zapper"
</Phil Kitching>

Wow!  I am truly honored!  I was sure I had given a set of impossible
values, but I didn't think about TL-16+.

<Phil>
Totals                     21.223   42.667
</Phil>

You gotta be shittin' me, you got the values right on?  <Monty Python
French Guy> Thatza veyray naaice! <MPFG>

Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:15:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: FUDGEing Traveller

<pester> Hey Eris, part 1 of FUDGEing Traveller was really good, but
where's part 2 man? I'm running a FUDGE Trav thing this weekend and I
could use it if you've got it. </pester>

Many thanks,
Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:18:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Cardboard Heroes

Hi all.  Does anyone own or has anyone used/seen the Cardboard Heroes
figures from SJG?  I'd like to get people's comments.  

If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
Traveller Cardboard Heroes?

Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:19:40 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re Beanstalks

Edward Swatschek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Depends where the cable breaks. Also, recall that the cable is moving at
> orbital speed (it's connected to a geosynchronous anchor) - it's not going
> to "stay still" while the planet turns under it, it's going to maintain some
> of it's orbital velocity as it falls. Still, that many tons of stuff at fall-from
> -orbit velocity...

Note that the cable is only moving at orbital velocity at the normal 
geosynch orbit.  Below that point, the cable is moving below orbital 
velocity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Below orbital velocity, that's why it's falling - but recall that the orbital
radius drops as you get closer to the surface. The cable is moving
slower as you get closer to the planet, but should still be keeping up
with the planet's rotation. Thus the cable should impact close to the
base - though I'd hate to have to do the math to see how many kilometers
away "close" would be.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:18:43 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re: Grav tank tactics

> OGRE - Big Nasty Armoured Cybertank; Run away quickly.
> 
> Ob Trav: An Ogre with Virus?

Hmm... reminds me of the time the players went up against a Virus infected
Hiver Bruiser.  Wasn't pretty at all (thing blew up their APC and gunned down
more than a couple characters) before they had the Victrix ship strafe the
thing w/ its 76-Mj plasma guns.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:18:32 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel

>   Ive done a whole pile of ships with FF&S1 (for a guy who does them with
> pencil paper & calculator) from a 5 D.ton assault boat to several thousand
> D.ton liner (that was for 2300AD, though), and Ive never come even close
> to running out of hull surface.

Small fries.  :-P   When doing Hiver capital ships (39k dt) J4 G5, I ran out
of surface area quite quickly.  CG, Manuever drive and J-drive gobbled it all
up. I couldn't get in 7 or 8 hex PEMS.  Had to stick w/ 6.  Given the missions
of the ships (a carrier and light cruiser), and the complement of escorts and
other sensors capabilities (Numerous 16hex AEMS, 6 hex PEMS and 8hex LADARs),
it was enough to swallow.

It's proving VERY difficult for a 90k dt ship of similar specs.  It gets alot
worse in FFS2 because of their radiators (but we won't even go there!).  LOL.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:18:34 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: skimming time

> This may have been turned over before I subscibed to the TML, but does
> anybody have any ideas on how long it takes to fill the tanks of a skimming
> starship? How about pumping water? Refueling at a lowport? Highport? I'm CT
> all the way, but the times should not be affected by system.

Unfortunately, it does appear to.  FF&S (and FFS2 IIRC) allow u to put the
percentage of the hull as fuel scoops.  Based on hull size, percentage of
surface area that's fuel scoops, and a simple calculation you figure out how
quickly it can take to fill the tanks.  10% is around average, though I've
gone up to 15% to get it as low as possible, to minimize the time one needs to
refuel. 

MT is 1 hour to skim a gas giant.  30 min for a Ocean refueling.  Supp 5:
Lightning Class Cruisers has the fuel shuttles able to skim 350 tons in 3
hours.  Twice as long for ocean.  9-10 hours for ice cap.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:18:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

> Sounds like a reasonable description of a helicopter gunship, except it's
> tougher.  Tactically probably very similar, however.

Maybe a little.  Still seems more than a little different from something that
can take several direct hits from a main weapon (high energy or CPR).

> >Unless arty improves significantly it isn't a serious threat to armor, much
> >less grav armor, and point defense isn't needed for a line MBT, though
> >possibly specialized support units might maintain some.
> 
> I would tend to disagree.  Extrapolating some of our current technologies, I
> can see fin stabilized artillery munitions incorporating terminal guidence
> and a variety of warhead packages to fit the shell to the job.  For example,
> how about warheads incorporating chemical-powered lasers for stand-off
> kills?  EW shells to provide jamming and deception services to the warhead
> shells following?  Carrier shells that 'seed' minefields with munitions
> designed to damage/destroy the underside grav plates.  Carrier shells that
> 'seed' sensors over a large area.

Thats starting to sound more like tac missiles than arty, but ok. :-)  Grav
vehicles are of such speed and maneuverability (comparably to ground tanks,
even at the lower tech levels) that you're going to need to add a much better
guidance system for it be effective.  Doesn't sound much like indirect fire
anymore...

Nearly every grav tank would already have pd capability, even if just from an
advanced fire control and stabalization system, though they wouldn't be
capable of area effect due to the main weaponry that's common.  I doubt this
would be a dedicated weapon, though.  It starts to muddle the actual identity
of what the grav tank actually is.  A grav tank w/ a dedicated pd weapon has
that much less space to be useful against a grav tank w/ that space dedicated
to killing another grav tank, be that ammunition, fuel or a slightly larger
main weapon or armor.  The complement of decoys, etc should work just as well
in here, as well.  And teh platform that launches these probably hideously
expensive (at least on a per capita basis) weapons is going to have a big
bullseye on it, should it be found.

There would be pd vehicles in teh support role to take care of special smart
weapons like that, whose cost might well prove prohibitive in comparison to
the relative effect against countermeasures.  RCVG has a TL15 Imperial Point
Defense APC w/ a 18.5-Mj rapid pulse fusion gun.  It's stated to have
antiaircraft, antimissile, antiartillery roles in a single platform.  They're
only deployed to guard high value batallion and regimental headquarters,
though, as most all of the vehicles in that book are capable of self defense
pd.

> These shells would not be cheap, but I think that many of the same
> principles that we apply to ship-to-ship missiles are perfectly adaptable to
> an environment where MBTs cost as much as a small starship.

Yeah.  Remember that ship-to-ship missiles tend to need to be specialized (det
lasers or big monstrosities like "Bubba" or whatever it was called).  'Simple'
KKMs have a hard time cutting the mustard.  You're also gonna need to the
delivery platform for these shells.  Given the speed, manueverability,
firepower, and armor of grav tanks, arty is going to have to be more than arty
is today.  

> Again, this assumes dumb shells.  Smart shells with internal guidence, or an
> external targeting device feeding information to the shell would change the
> whole concept of a 'ranging shot'.  More likely, the first shot would be a
> killing one.

Once you have shells w/ internal guidance, you're not talking bout artillery
anymore, but effectively have the makings of tac missiles, which are
counterable by the main fire control (and thus weapons) systems of anything
worthy of the title "grav tank."

> With smartshells, harrassment fire could be considerably more deadly.  A
> anti-armor shell is fired blind into any given area with several criteria to
> search for - AFV, APC, bunker, etc...  It continues along it's ballistic
> path until it finds a target that matches it's search criteria, then goes
> into terminal mode.  Otherwise, it impacts at the end of it's flight - still
> makes a boom and keeps people reminded that the Imperium loves them.

This is where the appropriate countermeasures devices (MCD,etc) take their
role.  Also, detection systems to detect these at range become more
commonplace.  Radar/EMS envelope around the unit, possibly by dedicated EW
platform, possibly put into each MBT to find these and where they came from
(best situation probably a combination).  Plus, there's always orbital
surveillance and ortillery to deal with.  Arty probably goes the way of the
dodo, to have it's role replaced by ortillery w/ laser weapons.  Harder to
counter (need PDMs, deepsites, or the ability to dispute space control) &
practically instant effect.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:27:42 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam

Jesse,

Very nice work, as usual, Jesse.

I guess you're among those who see Ditzie as a teenager. I think this is
missing the gag, though; as Ditzie's inability to pwonounce her R's
indicates that she's barely of grade school age.

But I suppose you weren't on the list when the topic of the infamous
Famille Spofulam creche first surfaced. Roderick Darroch Elliot and Ian
Whitchurch were bouncing memos back and forth which made reference to the
various psychochemicals made available to the little kids in the family
creche, which also happens to be the design department of the FS High
Energy Solutions Division...

Best,

Glenn


(Jesse's portrait of Ditzie Spofulam...)
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm


               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in trade paperback from Tor Books
          Watch for _Northern Suns_ in April 1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:32:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: PBEM Opening

LOL!  Yeah, I can believe that.
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>        =)
>        New player, new gamer, needed a name, and guess what he had just
>finished watching...
>
>        --Michel

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #302
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 303



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Canonicity
Re: The Traveller Burrito File
Re: re Beanstalks
Re: Cardboard Heroes
RE: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Cardboard Heroes
RE: The Traveller Burrito File
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam
Re: The Traveller Burrito File
Re: Re; What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Ditzie for Empress!
Re: Uses for decommissioned starships
Re: Ditzie for Empress!
The Burrito File: bartenders
Re: Ditzie for Empress!
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
SayBOOM Violates Family Values!!!!
Re: For the "humor challenged"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:42:07 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

theres also the "Cardboard Bimbos" from Macho Women With Guns!
and I think there was a set of the old cardboard heroes for Traveller.
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:41:51 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

>Hi all.  Does anyone own or has anyone used/seen the Cardboard Heroes
>figures from SJG?  I'd like to get people's comments.
>
>If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
>Traveller Cardboard Heroes?
>
>Charles C.
>
>-----
>"Omnia intelligi possunt"

You mean a REPRINT of the Traveller CardBoard Heroes from SJG's don't you?

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:18:41 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

> > It doesn't *have to* have any adverse effect when T-plates don't.  You
> > might want to introduce such effects, but it isn't necessary (or
> > desirable).  HEPLaR isn't a fusion drive, after all.
> 
> It _has to_ as long as its a simple reaction drive, because the power output
of
> a reaction drive has a lower limit of (jet velocity) * (thrust).  As a
HEPLaR
> thruster has an exhaust velocity of between .05 and .1 c (I don't recall

<snip>

I wasn't saying it would be pretty to sit behind that HEPLaR ignition chamber
when it's active.  :-)  Or even for the vegetation nearby.  My point was that
it doesn't have to have any adverse effects *when compared to T-plates.*  eg
blasting off from a starport, the actual conduct of any adventure, etc.  

As far as the lightspeed exhaust, I've seen handwaves as good as anything for
T-plates (actually better, but i'm biased).  ;-)  Blacklight Zero-Point-Energy
or something like that.  Jon Goff brought it up on the TNE list. This is out
of my element, though.  I'm not a physics major, and I don't even play one on
tv.  :-)

There just isn't any reason that T-plates should be good on the environment
when HEPLaR is bad and vice versa.  Or in other words, the handwave of my
choice is as good as anyones.  lol. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:41:02 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: The Traveller Burrito File

>Anyone want to help me put together a Traveller Burrito File?
>
>-Rob

Am I correct in assuming that you want just general descriptions?  Or do you
want stats for a particular ruleset?

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:36:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: re Beanstalks

Yeah, gravity would bring it straight down, but the strength of the stalk
itself would cause it to go in random directions in sections I would think.
It would have to be demolitioned by some very skilled people to bring it
straight down.

Why don't they just 100mph Tape massive rockets to the bottom at the last
minute and fire it all into space?  ; )

- --Clif

>Below orbital velocity, that's why it's falling - but recall that the
orbital
>radius drops as you get closer to the surface. The cable is moving
>slower as you get closer to the planet, but should still be keeping up
>with the planet's rotation. Thus the cable should impact close to the
>base - though I'd hate to have to do the math to see how many kilometers
>away "close" would be.
>
>Walt Smith
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:42:01 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

Charles,

I looked over SJG's latest reprint of their Cardboard Heroes just last
week. They are on good quality card stock and, while a little cartoonish
(what else would you expect?) they would be useful. These are reprints
however, and since SJG has already printed one set of Traveller C.H.'s
back in the late '70's early '80's I'd expect to see them if the sales
warrent.

In the meantime, I have a couple of .pdf files up on my site
(mercenaries and combat armor) at 

http://members.home.net/travelleri/index

Look under Paper Armies.

I've about finished another page of adventurers that I need to post
soon.

If you print them out on index paper stock and use a washer or a penny,
etc. as a base weight they work for those times when you need a quick
set of fills for NPCs to throw against your players.

Mike

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> Hi all.  Does anyone own or has anyone used/seen the Cardboard Heroes
> figures from SJG?  I'd like to get people's comments.
> 
> If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
> Traveller Cardboard Heroes?
> 
> Charles C.
> 
> -----
> "Omnia intelligi possunt"

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:51:26 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: RE: Cardboard Heroes

	SJG actually put out sets of Cardboard Heroes for Traveller many
moons ago.  The only problem I have with them is that they're designed for
15mm use so they're a bit small for the 25mm hex maps that I mostly use now.
Since the original Traveller miniatures, like the ones from Martian
Miniatures were 15mm as well, they do go well with those.
	I picked up a set of Traveller Cardboard Heroes from Crazy Igor's a
few weeks back for about $5.00 plus shipping.  I think he's got a good many
in stock.  If SJG does come out with more for Traveller, I'd like to see
them in 15mm and 25mm.

		Alan Hatcher

Crazy Egor's URL : http://www.crazyegors.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:01:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

The James Bond 007 had some good cardboard miniatures for both Spec Ops and
Suit & Tie affairs, plus vehicles to match!

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh@aracnet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes


>>Hi all.  Does anyone own or has anyone used/seen the Cardboard Heroes
>>figures from SJG?  I'd like to get people's comments.
>>
>>If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
>>Traveller Cardboard Heroes?
>>
>>Charles C.
>>
>>-----
>>"Omnia intelligi possunt"
>
>You mean a REPRINT of the Traveller CardBoard Heroes from SJG's don't you?
>
> Zane
>| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
>| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
>| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
>|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
>|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
>|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:09:18 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: The Traveller Burrito File

I'd love to contribute, if I can find the time :/
Meanwhile, how about:
NPCs
* police officers
* petty bureaucrats
* starport grunts (refueling crew, cargo handlers, life support 
	specialists, etc.)
* pirates
* taxi drivers
* hookers (a common NPC with one of my players)
Places
* mining base on an asteroid
* public transit system
* police station/jail
Things
* clothing
Not to mention pets.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:13:41 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

I'm easy.  Probably only two or three :)  You'll probably have to stand over
my shoulder with a cattle prod to make sure I get it done though.  Todd can
attest to this!!

Jesse




>At 02:50 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with
some
>>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>>from the web if you want me to!
>
>Perfect!
>
>How many beers do I need to buy you at BayCon to get you to draw Arameth
>Gridlore?
>
>(Note to self.. tell wife I will be in quiet bar all weekend...)
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:23:55 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam

Harry D and the folks at Body Counts R Us want Ditzies com #
and 2 of the guns. or at least the guns... 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:24:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: The Traveller Burrito File

I came THIS cloes    ---->  <----   to ruining ANOTHER keyboard with that
title!  LOVE IT!!!!!

Jesse


>Rob Prior spake unto us and advised a large swarm of pregenerated
>NPCs for use when players go somewhere unexpected.  His point
>is "be prepared".  Very well then, I want to compile a buncha people,
>places, and things that can be used in various general settings.
>
>Applying the Burrito Principle (80% of the meat is in 20% of the burrito),
>I then deduce that picking the most commonly encountered people,
>places, and things for my efforts makes the most sense; hence, the
>Traveller Burrito File is created.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:26:22 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Re; What DOES Ditzie look like?

I'm DEFINATELY not going there (unless Ian requested it of course :)   I do
have SOME impulse control ;)

Jesse

>I wonder if she would pose on an Ack-Ack gun in lingerie?
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:33:06 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam

Thanks!

No, I definately wasn't around back then.  I don't remember how long I've
been around on the TML, but I think is was shortly (less than a month)
before the FS autoshotgun "riot control" system :)

If anyone has those in archives or can point me at a URL, I'd appreciate it.
Hey Todd, how about a Traveller game at BayCon that involves Ditzie?  :D

Jesse



>Jesse,
>
>Very nice work, as usual, Jesse.
>
>I guess you're among those who see Ditzie as a teenager. I think this is
>missing the gag, though; as Ditzie's inability to pwonounce her R's
>indicates that she's barely of grade school age.
>
>But I suppose you weren't on the list when the topic of the infamous
>Famille Spofulam creche first surfaced. Roderick Darroch Elliot and Ian
>Whitchurch were bouncing memos back and forth which made reference to the
>various psychochemicals made available to the little kids in the family
>creche, which also happens to be the design department of the FS High
>Energy Solutions Division...
>
>Best,
>
>Glenn
>
>
>(Jesse's portrait of Ditzie Spofulam...)
>>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>
>               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
>_Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
>          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
>           now in trade paperback from Tor Books
>          Watch for _Northern Suns_ in April 1999
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:28:05 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

At 07:20 PM 3/17/99 , Douglas Glatz wrote:
><snip>>
>I can't remember what my source was for my information - could have just
>been scuttlebutt making the rounds.

There more than enough of that being passed around, yes I did some too.<G>

>>snip<
>I was in Norfolk when the IOWA came in, and in Louisville going through
>their Phalanx Block 1 upgrade school when the restored turret equipment was
>shipped out.  Skill loss was a big topic of conversation at the time- and
>one of the reasons that the turret almost didn't get repaired.  There was a
>lot of discussion about refitting a missile launcher in place of the
>turret - but the cranes needed to pull the turrets out of the BBs no longer
>existed, and there was some interesting discussions about what exactly
>removing one of the turrets would do to the stability of the ship.  They
>ended up rebuilding the turret using the parts in place, and parts that had
>been in 'storage' at the Ordinance Center in Louisville.

Damn that means that "Herman The German" the LBNSY floating crane(a 
captured WWII German Made Piece Crane Ware)is no more;-(. That is what 
LBNSY used to remove the 5" dual mounts for its refit. I still remember the 
"Herman" lifting out a 5" dual turret and then cruising across the harbor 
to put on the shore. It could also do all of the main turret barrel 
replacements.

"Herman" had IIRC four 750 hp diesel power plants just for the four 
maneuvering thrusters ie one diesel for each thruster. The thrusters were 
it's main water propulsion. It's main lifting point had cables that were 
greater than 12 inches in diameter and in block and pulley of 12 loops. It 
did no use the main lifting point to remove the 5" dual turrets. It quite 
literally could have removed any one of the main turrets of the NJ class 
sans barrels with out any assistance from other cranes.

The crane operator had to be certified heavy lift crane and harbor 
certified boat operator.

Was that the Iowa 16" turret that took the hit during the Korean War, I 
believe it was a 8-10" shell that hit it.

The "Mighty Mo" had "rippled" bottom from running aground at too high a 
speed. Rather than fix her they decommissioned her.

>>snip<
>As I recall, the article was in the 'Surface Warfare' magazine - had to have
>been around '88 or '89 because I was still stationed on the East Coast.  The
>method was to insert the projectile, then close, but not seal the breech.
>At this point, the injection harware would still have access to the ingition
>chamber and they would pump in the plastique.  Once the desired amount was
>injected, the breach would close the rest of  the way, locking the gun and
>also isolating the injection hardware from the ignition chamber.

Ok that sounds better than I was imagining it being done. So then they were 
going to use the "original" method of putting the fire to it?

I got out in '85 or was it thrown out.....<BG>
I guess it depends on which end you were on<G>
But I still got my Honourable.<G>


Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:52:19 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Ditzie for Empress!

>Hey Todd, how about a Traveller game at BayCon that involves Ditzie?  :D


And thus, a Traveller legend was born...

How about Ditzie for Empress?  She must have quite a cult following amongst
the Merc community.  Surely it couldn't be too difficult, with a combined
effort to put her on the throne.  That would make for a great campaign
poster...  The slogan could read, "A Gauss Rifle cradled in every bosom."

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:12:41 -0500
From: Robert Glaub <rwglaub@smart.net>
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships

At 07:32 PM 3/17/1999 EST, you wrote:
>	A large decomissioned ship would make a great gambling casino.   Since it is
>off world, it can be technically in Imperial jurisdiction, so if gambling is
>outlawed on planet, an off-world site could get some good business.
Likewise,
>since the ticket would be a factor in attendence, it would attract "high
>rollers" and keep out the riff-raff.
>
>			Dave Nelson
>

How do I get off the mailing list. Thanks.

Robert Glaub
rwglaub@smart.net
http://www.smart.net/~rwglaub

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:32:33 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Empress!

or just make her the corporate Spokesmerc,
and have her do ads in really skimpy body armor.
Battlelords of the 23rd Century has a corporation
whos spokesman is a 90 some odd year old granny
with a taste for heavy weapons that would do X-Tek
and company proud. never mind the fact that shes 
a retired special forces major, with 3 engineering degrees
since she retired. some of the cartoons of her are priceless.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:37:56 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: The Burrito File: bartenders

The Burrito File
Bartenders

Osric Farland, age 47
Though average height, his blonde-white hair singles him out in a crowd.
Osric has been in the Marines.  He's also been a criminal.  He still has
contacts from both careers, but uses them sparingly.  He often gives out
drinks to Marine veterans with stories to trade.  It's also whispered
that he's been the middleman in an interstellar smuggling ring, but of
course that's all nonsense.

Polos Kallisto, age 35
Polos' fair skin still has remnants of a hard solar tan.  He looks more like
a librarian than a bartender, but he is obviosuly not a wimp.
Polos retired from freelance freight running when his father passed away.
From the moment Polos returned to his homeworld he knew he was
there to stay.  He found running a bar much easier than plying the lanes
between neglected and dangerous systems.  He's still part owner/investor
in his Free Trader, the _Lady of the Rift_, which he sold to his pilot.
Polos named his trader after a legendary lady who locals claim to have
visions of from time to time.

Johan Tanner, age 63
This man is a bit shorter than most, is well-muscled, and sports an
eye patch.  Johan eschews technology as it affects the body; the
Imperial cyborg rules has him worried about physical tampering,
to the point that he is somewhat bigoted against augmentation,
transplantation, and prosthetics.
A retired engineer, Johan worked for Arkesh Spacers, a rather
predatory company.  He did some choice sabotage for Arkesh,
and made a bundle.  The bar is his hobby; he doesn't have to
worry about retirement income.

Jakob Giness, age 42
The first thing you notice when you enter the Orion bar and grill is
Jakob's voice.  His loud baritone carries over the most noisy conditions
- -- perfect for his tavern.  The bar is a large affair, with very good
acoustic qualities.  In fact, in some places one can hear a conversation
clear on the other side of the room.  But usually all one hears is
a rowdy cacophany from all points of the building.
Jakob himself is a very ordinary man.  He is left-handed, but beyond
that his brown hair, brown eyes, and plain face makes him forgettable;
at least until you hear his voice.  He used to be a political science
lecturer, and flew from one major star system to another to give
speeches for universities, clubs, political rallies, what-have-you.
After making one too many enemies, he called it quits and took out
a loan on the bar.

'Benji' Saligbotha, age 60
A sharp-featured man with a scar on his cheek, Benji has never told
anyone his real first name.  He is happy with paying customers but
never volunteers information.  His friends are few and close-knit;
most people he knows are merely acquaintences.  Benji is an avid
secret supporter of a well-known people's army of freedom
fighters, which is labelled by the Imperium as a subversive terrorist
group (due to its economic disruption).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:34:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Empress!

Can we see some of them?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Empress!


>or just make her the corporate Spokesmerc,
>and have her do ads in really skimpy body armor.
>Battlelords of the 23rd Century has a corporation
>whos spokesman is a 90 some odd year old granny
>with a taste for heavy weapons that would do X-Tek
>and company proud. never mind the fact that shes 
>a retired special forces major, with 3 engineering degrees
>since she retired. some of the cartoons of her are priceless.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:32:37 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Hey, wait a minute!  I thought Ditzie was about four years old!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:41:52 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:
> 
> >Yes, but, from what I've been told since moving here, IOWA would never
> >make it past the US 190 bridge over the Mississippi in north Baton
> >Rouge.  Supposedly, Gov. Huey P. Long decreed that the bridge should be
> >built too low to allow ocean-going vessels to pass under, in order to
> >ensure that no river city north of Baton Rouge could become a seaport.
> 
> One last hurrah for the 16" ers?
> 

NO!  BAD idea!  We _need_ that bridge!  The Interstate-10 bridge in
south-central Baton Rouge is too prone to traffic jams as it is; imagine
losing the only alternate route over the Mississippi for quite a few
miles....

ObTrav:  What could a subsector government do to prevent worlds in a
neighboring subsector from competing on an equal footing with the first
subsector's trade routes?  More importantly, what would the Imperial
government _permit_ the first subsector to do to achieve the goal
mentioned above?

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:47:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: SayBOOM Violates Family Values!!!!

Hey, kids!!!!!

What's sexier than a high-tech machine gun?

Why, a Two-Blond(e)s-and-a-Trampoline-Powered machine gun!

- ----------------------

TL-C ETC Machine Gun  (FF&S1)

Ammo:  7x30mm necked ETC   
       Mass 6.16g, Cr0.12 ea.  
       Avg Energy 2561.5 joules   
       Required Input Energy 153.7 joules (from CPR gun design sequence).
Cassette:  8000 rounds (66.6 minutes firing)
       Mass 2kg empty, 51.3kg loaded
       Cost Cr514 empty, Cr1498 loaded.

Barrel:   Heavy rifled ETC, 50cm long, 1.5kg, actual muzzle energy 3730.8
joules.
Receiver: Heavy, 20.2cm long, 2.86kg
Options:  Shock absorbing rifle stock, gyrocompensator, bipod, optical
sight, laser sight

ROF:          10   Required power: 307.4 watts
Damage:       4                          (HE/HEAP damage: 5)
Short Range:  200 meters (using bipod)   (HE/HEAP short range: 150 meters)
Recoil:       3.72
Weight:       8.03 / 10.03 / 59.29 kg (stripped / empty cassette / full
cassette)
Length:       95cm    
Cost:         Cr2,239   

Power Source:  Blond(e)s-and-a-Trampoline plant, basic model (2 75kg units
exercising at net 4x base energy rate), yielding 300 watts.  (Please note
that more than simply muscular and cardiovascular stamina is necessary to
empty a magazine.)  20kg, 1m3 (disassembled), 14m3 (assembled and
functioning), Cr500.  Complimentary 10 meter power cable included.  
Blond(e)s _not_ included.

We at SayBOOM observe that, given sexual dimorphism in mutant hominid
species, two blonds will (statistically) provide more energy than two
blondes, though marketing surveys suggest the latter will appeal more to
the present customer base.  Power figures given above are averages.  For
more robust needs, we have a four-blond multiple-barrel rotary tool
version, available upon request.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz
for the Sayat Board for the Optimization and Operationalization of
Munitions

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:56:01 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: For the "humor challenged"

E.D.Quibell wrote:
> 
> Mark Urbin wrote:
> >
> > The generic bar bit was what we on this planet call "a joke."
> > Hmmm..instead of naming the bartender "Guy", call him "Joe"
> > as in "Joe Generio".
> 
> They call him Joe Public over here.
> 
"Joe Genero" is a reference to (IIRC) SHADIS magazine.  The premise of
the series of cartoon-articles was that, given an absolutely average
character in a game system, how would that character interact with the
game setting, within the game rules.  For instance, just how many times
would one have to shoot Joe Genero with [fill-in-the-blank weapon] to
incapacitate/kill him?  Or, how difficult is it in a given rules set for
Joe Genero to drive from his house to the supermarket five kilometers
away, without having a serious accident?

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #303
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 18 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 304



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
The Burrito File: Business/Corporate Factors
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam
Re: SayBOOM Violates Family Values!!!!
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Increase your sales by 1500%!!!
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Increase your sales by 1500%!!!
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)
Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: GT Sublike combat
Re: The Burrito Files
Re: For the "humor challenged"
Re: FUDGEing Traveller
TPlates and Heplar
RE: The Traveller Burrito File
Doctor Bull lives?
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:59:24 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Glenn brought up the fact that there had been some discussion about Ditzie's
age previous to my joining the TML.  My question though, is what is a 4yr
old doing as a weapon's designer and PR flack?  :)

'Course we can just consider the pic I did as being a couple of years in the
future <applying liberal handwave>   :D

Jesse



>Hey, wait a minute!  I thought Ditzie was about four years old!
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:05:56 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: The Burrito File: Business/Corporate Factors

The Burrito File
Business/Corporate Factors

Andrei Contescu, age 70
A tall, lean man, Andrei has that 'stretched' look that shows he has
been taking anagathics for some time.  A deliberate man, Andrei
speaks clearly and precisely, without using a "noble" accent.  He
seems down-to-earth in his manners, though he seems a bit too
polished to be totally sincere.  He is also very careful who he talks
with, and will quickly zero in on a leader when interacting with a
group.

Eneri Khaashir, age 55
This man has no fashion sense.  He wears outfits cobbled together
from a mix of eras, from the 1060's to the 1100's.  The fact is
made worse when one realizes that his suits are his best attempts
at textile coordination.
Eneri is a low-rank worker, and as such seldom realizes the inner
workings of his company.  He merely goes about his job --
regardless of whatever suspicions he might harbor -- and manages
his assignments as well as he can.

Liisha Kinushid, age 35
Liisha has long, brown hair and piercing eyes.  At times she wears
glasses -- for effect only.
She is a young, upwardly mobile female in a man-centered company
in a man-centered galaxy.  She is bold, confident, and very competent.
She can bargain with the best of them, and can drink people twice
her weight under the table.  She knows things about the company
that some chief administrators don't know.

Dalia Solado, age 48
Dalia is a tall woman, with yellow hair that has one lock of red-brown
twisting through it.  She is a calm, efficient woman who is currently
double-crossing her company by feeding information to a direct
rival (for cash, of course).  Any assignments she gives out are
almost immediately reported to the rival company -- especially if
the assignment is important to her company.

Arden Backus, age 52
Arden has jet-black hair and olive-toned skin.  He's given a lot of
latitude with his choices of assignments and people to do them:
in the past he has gotten excellent results by his methods.  In
exchange for such a wide latitude, his company does everything
it can to divorce itself from any involvement with his 'assignments'.
As a result, Arden looks more like a freelancer than a factor; in
reality, all his creditors can be traced back to one company only:
in effect, his employer.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:02:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 StevenA201@aol.com wrote:

> Hey, wait a minute!  I thought Ditzie was about four years old!

Uh-huh.  Growth hormones.  We spiked her crystal with 'em.

Yr. obt. svts.,
SayB.O.O.M.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:58:20 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Aye, that I can.  Cattle prod hooked up to a plasma generator.

T

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:00:01 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam

Jes, I'm a major newbie here, get me up to speed on Ditzie and a game can be
done baby!!

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:05:27 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM Violates Family Values!!!!

SSSSSSSSSPPPPPRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

I have GOT  to stoppp dddringggkkkigngg llgiiiiieuuuuuuidddssw hifwnenn
III'''''''mmmm  __  reeeeeeeeeddnnng    te jldk
TTMllllLLL.........<<<<<<<<<zzzzzzzpop!!

[sounds of equipment repair]

Luckily I work for a computer manufacturer and have started carrying around
extra parts with me :)

Jesse



>Hey, kids!!!!!
>
>What's sexier than a high-tech machine gun?
>
>Why, a Two-Blond(e)s-and-a-Trampoline-Powered machine gun!
>
>----------------------
>
>TL-C ETC Machine Gun  (FF&S1)
>
>Ammo:  7x30mm necked ETC
>       Mass 6.16g, Cr0.12 ea.
>       Avg Energy 2561.5 joules
>       Required Input Energy 153.7 joules (from CPR gun design sequence).
>Cassette:  8000 rounds (66.6 minutes firing)
>       Mass 2kg empty, 51.3kg loaded
>       Cost Cr514 empty, Cr1498 loaded.
>
>Barrel:   Heavy rifled ETC, 50cm long, 1.5kg, actual muzzle energy 3730.8
>joules.
>Receiver: Heavy, 20.2cm long, 2.86kg
>Options:  Shock absorbing rifle stock, gyrocompensator, bipod, optical
>sight, laser sight
>
>ROF:          10   Required power: 307.4 watts
>Damage:       4                          (HE/HEAP damage: 5)
>Short Range:  200 meters (using bipod)   (HE/HEAP short range: 150 meters)
>Recoil:       3.72
>Weight:       8.03 / 10.03 / 59.29 kg (stripped / empty cassette / full
>cassette)
>Length:       95cm
>Cost:         Cr2,239
>
>Power Source:  Blond(e)s-and-a-Trampoline plant, basic model (2 75kg units
>exercising at net 4x base energy rate), yielding 300 watts.  (Please note
>that more than simply muscular and cardiovascular stamina is necessary to
>empty a magazine.)  20kg, 1m3 (disassembled), 14m3 (assembled and
>functioning), Cr500.  Complimentary 10 meter power cable included.
>Blond(e)s _not_ included.
>
>We at SayBOOM observe that, given sexual dimorphism in mutant hominid
>species, two blonds will (statistically) provide more energy than two
>blondes, though marketing surveys suggest the latter will appeal more to
>the present customer base.  Power figures given above are averages.  For
>more robust needs, we have a four-blond multiple-barrel rotary tool
>version, available upon request.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>Kenji Schwarz
>for the Sayat Board for the Optimization and Operationalization of
>Munitions
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:19:25 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

>Glenn brought up the fact that there had been some discussion about Ditzie's
>age previous to my joining the TML.  My question though, is what is a 4yr
>old doing as a weapon's designer and PR flack?  :)
>
>'Course we can just consider the pic I did as being a couple of years in the
>future <applying liberal handwave>   :D

Me, I always assumed she was middle aged.  Sort of like someones ditzie
Aunt.  Of course I also (ducking and dodging) assumed she's blond :^)

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 99 11:22:41 PM
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Increase your sales by 1500%!!!

YOU CAN INCREASE YOUR SALES 1500% 
  Overnight by Accepting Major Credit Cards! 

  Are you turning away your share of more than 375 
  million sales? That's how many credit cards are being used 
  nationwide. Charges in 1997 alone topped $1 Trillion! 

  Regardless of your credit history... 
  You can accept Visa, Mastercard, American Express and 
  Discover/Novus, all with the lowest startup cost! 

  You are Pre-Approved! 
  You are 100% GUARANTEED to get a merchant account! 

  Remember your ID number and receive FREE Check Guarantee. 

  CALL NOW!!! 
  1-877-SWIPE-CC 
  ID# 25 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:32:46 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

A nice drawing, but not how I've always pictured Ditzie.

My mental image is of a slender 12-year-old with light brown skin, dark
brown/black, slightly slanted eyes, shoulder-length slightly frizzy hair
(usually pulled back out of the way), and a wide innocent grin. The 180+
IQ is, of course, invisible at first glance.

I'll admit, this is a composite between one of my friends (aged 4) and her
mother.  Tieing this into the ethnic origins thread, she's black/Chinese
from Trinidad, if that helps anyone's mental picture. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:34:31 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

That and other chemicals could explain why she can even bloody LIFT the
thing :)
Jesse


>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 StevenA201@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Hey, wait a minute!  I thought Ditzie was about four years old!
>
>Uh-huh.  Growth hormones.  We spiked her crystal with 'em.
>
>Yr. obt. svts.,
>SayB.O.O.M.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:35:55 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Increase your sales by 1500%!!!

SHIT!!!!  We've been SPAMMED!!!  Ditzie, grab your cannon!!  Everyone else,
DUCK!!!

Jesse


>YOU CAN INCREASE YOUR SALES 1500%
>  Overnight by Accepting Major Credit Cards!
>
>  Are you turning away your share of more than 375
>  million sales? That's how many credit cards are being used
>  nationwide. Charges in 1997 alone topped $1 Trillion!
>
>  Regardless of your credit history...
>  You can accept Visa, Mastercard, American Express and
>  Discover/Novus, all with the lowest startup cost!
>
>  You are Pre-Approved!
>  You are 100% GUARANTEED to get a merchant account!
>
>  Remember your ID number and receive FREE Check Guarantee.
>
>  CALL NOW!!!
>  1-877-SWIPE-CC
>  ID# 25
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:37:29 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:
>If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
>Traveller Cardboard Heroes?

Or we could start lobbying Jesse? :-)

Actually, I think this could be a serious suggestion. 

Jesse, what about doing a line of Cardboard Starships?  How hard would it
be to create (a) top-down views for counters (usable with, say, Full
Thrust), or (b) double-sided cardboard models (like those old 'slide
fuselage over wings' airplanes)?

I know you've got the models already created. Would this be a lot of extra
work?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:46:04 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

I wrote 

>My mental image is of a slender 12-year-old with light brown skin, dark
>brown/black, slightly slanted eyes, shoulder-length slightly frizzy hair
>(usually pulled back out of the way), and a wide innocent grin. The 180+
>IQ is, of course, invisible at first glance.
>
>I'll admit, this is a composite between one of my friends (aged 4) and
>her mother.  Tieing this into the ethnic origins thread, she's
>black/Chinese from Trinidad, if that helps anyone's mental picture. 

StevenA201@aol.com writes:
>Hey, wait a minute!  I thought Ditzie was about four years old!


I'd missed her being _that_ young, but I can see it. Even easier to
visualize, that's precisely how old Kaitlin is.  Boy does she love being
silly, but the thought of a moody Kaitlin with a particle accelerator...
yikes!

(Mind you, Mom's a dentist. Can you imagine what FS would cook up as a
dentists' drill?)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:46:25 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Just goes to prove that the only one who can TRULY answer the question is
Ian, who's been surprisingly quiet so far on this :)  He must use digest
mode.....

Jesse


>A nice drawing, but not how I've always pictured Ditzie.
>
>My mental image is of a slender 12-year-old with light brown skin, dark
>brown/black, slightly slanted eyes, shoulder-length slightly frizzy hair
>(usually pulled back out of the way), and a wide innocent grin. The 180+
>IQ is, of course, invisible at first glance.
>
>I'll admit, this is a composite between one of my friends (aged 4) and her
>mother.  Tieing this into the ethnic origins thread, she's black/Chinese
>from Trinidad, if that helps anyone's mental picture.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:53:26 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

Actually, for the ship counters, rendering a shot from the proper
perspective is quite simple.  You just move the camera around a click away
from the ship, then zoom the camera back in all the way.  What this does is
gets rid of the perspective warping that you'd otherwise see.  It's
identical to useing a telephoto lens with your camera.  When you're zoomed
all the way, the picture is "flattened" quite a bit.

Maybe once the Starport project is done I'll have time to do something like
that and post it....

Jesse



>Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:
>>If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
>>Traveller Cardboard Heroes?
>
>Or we could start lobbying Jesse? :-)
>
>Actually, I think this could be a serious suggestion.
>
>Jesse, what about doing a line of Cardboard Starships?  How hard would it
>be to create (a) top-down views for counters (usable with, say, Full
>Thrust), or (b) double-sided cardboard models (like those old 'slide
>fuselage over wings' airplanes)?
>
>I know you've got the models already created. Would this be a lot of extra
>work?
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 23:57:45 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)

On 03/17/99 at 06:45 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>>Beanstalks may not be 100% safe, either. 
>>A White Dwarf magazine had a scenario called "Tower Trouble" in it, based
>>around the beanstalk on Terra. One possible (though unlikely) outcome
>>of the scenario had the beanstalk being cut, with the devastation of a major
>>urban area following as miles of superdense cable fell on it from near-orbit.

>Make that devastation of the equator of the planet.  That beanstalk
>is *tall*, and it's going to wrap itself around the planet at least
>once. -- 

I *know* I remember this happening during the post-Rebellion period.
So, who remembers what planet got "whipped" by a falling beanstalk
during the Virus infestations?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:08:18 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

"Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> stitches out on his
weasel powered sewing terminal:
>No hard feelings Clif.
>Quality certainly does matter and you get what you pay for.

   I make a point not to do business with spammers also.  So Shawn gets my
vote.



- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
What did the devil say when the first email spammer showed up in hell?
"There goes the neighborhood!" -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/ 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:20:34 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
...
>these awful puns involving Sisters of Mercy song titles.
>
>ObTrav: Hmm... Stuck for this one, suspect the thread has wandered too far...

  It's just a shame that you weren't able to give it up in a fast fashion.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:20:28 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: The Burrito Files

Should I consider these as submissions? ;-)


_______________________________
              www.downport.com 
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:37:04 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: For the "humor challenged"

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) suggests:

>Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>>Quite true; the bar is a sci-fantasy staple...Glenn Cook used them many
>>times
>>in his Black Company series. Interesting things always happened in bars...
>>
>>Ob Trav: use them in adventures...
>
>Yup, that's why _my_ characters always meet at a family restaurant to do
>their plotting. The noise level's higher, but the threat level's lower :-)

 Well, maybe. Remember Tarantino's First Rule, however:

 "Never make a trip to the restroom while on-camera. The karmic punishment
for doing so far outweigh the benefits of an empty bladder."

 Anyone who doubts need only watch a few of his movies and keep count...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 00:36:55 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: FUDGEing Traveller

On 03/17/99 at 09:15 PM,  Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> said:

><pester> Hey Eris, part 1 of FUDGEing Traveller was really good, but
>where's part 2 man? I'm running a FUDGE Trav thing this weekend and I
>could use it if you've got it. </pester>

Glad you liked it.  

Ive been busy with work and the PBEM's I'm in/running.

I'll try to get part 2 out tomorrow. I guess I'll have Fudge for lunch again. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 00:43:23 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: TPlates and Heplar

On 03/17/99 at 09:18 PM,  TravelrTNE@aol.com said:

>As far as the lightspeed exhaust, I've seen handwaves as good as
>anything for T-plates (actually better, but i'm biased).  ;-) 
>Blacklight Zero-Point-Energy or something like that.  Jon Goff
>brought it up on the TNE list. This is out of my element, though. 
>I'm not a physics major, and I don't even play one on tv.  :-)

ZPE and blacklight are different things.

Personally, I thought the Plasma Focus drive was a much better Heplar explanation than the ZPE or Blacklight stuff. Something about plasma arcs between two tubes collapsing in to from a high energy pressure point causing a fusion ignition..or something, I'm not a physics major either so I'll let someone else explain how it all works. 

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 00:45:21 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: RE: The Traveller Burrito File

On 03/17/99 at 10:09 PM,  Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> said:

>I'd love to contribute, if I can find the time :/
>Meanwhile, how about:
>NPCs
>* police officers
>* petty bureaucrats

<snip>

Me too!  However, I'd *most* like to steal everyone elses NPC's! So how's about starting to post a few? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:03:08 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Doctor Bull lives?

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: FS FwdObsvr Ops (was Re: Grav tank tactics)
...
>        Speed up and spread out?  Nope.  Those rounds are rolling in at
>4000m/sec every 1.5 seconds.  The guy with the painter is under camo with
...

  I may have missed something in Ditzie's original specs (and just why is
she channelling for a second millenium canuck, anyway?), but a kinetic
penetrator keeping the majority of its' energy at the end of a maximum 
ballistic run through an atmosphere sounds distinctly like a game mechanism
being pushed well past breaking point.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:20:47 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Date sent:      	Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:50:45 -0500
From:           	Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

>Doug Berry writes:
>>We did get a chance to mingle, and one of their snipers joked that if they
>>had been operational during WWII, their first mission would have been to
>>elminate Patton.

>Patton was given much more credit by the German General Staff than
>the Allied General Staff did.

Patton was one of those few American commanders in the 2nd WW that
had a clear grasp of the weaknesses (and strengths) the American military
machine. Patton realised that his troops had to advance (their morale would
have collapsed in relatively short order if they did not).

>It is arguable that his greated foe in WWII wasn't Rommel but,
>Montgomery.

>There was a Pyramid article on Time Travel missions that had the heros
>trying to shorten WWII by trying to get more theatre command to Patton,
>and less to Monty.

Montgomery  is one of the most maligned commanders of the 2nd WW
(especially by American commentators). Montgomery was a master of the
set piece battle (thats why Eisenhower put him in overall command of the
Normandy battles). Montgomery had a particular eye for minute detail and
was a brillant planner. Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
superiority to avoid defeat.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:17:42 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

>Does anyone familiar w/ OGRE or the Renegade Legion stuff by FASA have
>anything relevant or any light to shed here?

Renegade Legion just shows that grav tanks are huge targets when flying,
They're only useful when
dug in and their enemy doesn't have Interceptors or a Thor satellite.

The point is that armour never quite matches the penetrating power of the
weaponry, if this is violated, the Renegade Legion lessons don't apply.

Even if your armour can withstand a Thor's shot, the impact is going to ground
your tank deep into the earth and probably overload or destroy whatever
generates your lift.

When facing other armour alone, the tanks that are hull down and hidden are
the ones that will survive, flying in to a combat zone gets you dead real
quick.

The attack helicopter example is accurate, but unlike the turkey-shoot in
Iraq, in grav-tank on grav-tank combat _both_ sides are the attack
helicopters, and both sides are eqully vulnerable (asssuming main battle tanks
on each side).

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:38:23 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

>Montgomery  is one of the most maligned commanders of the 2nd WW
>(especially by American commentators). Montgomery was a master of the
>set piece battle (thats why Eisenhower put him in overall command of the
>Normandy battles). Montgomery had a particular eye for minute detail and
>was a brillant planner. Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
>superiority to avoid defeat.

And the reason Monty didn't like Patton is because he was a cowboy bigot who
didn't follow orders, who was more interested in grand-standing and making
himself look good than actually winning the war

I'm surprised even Americans consider Patton any good at warfare.

Though he _was_ great at public relations, it wasn't until many years later
that his nasty habits and cruel treatment of his own troops was effectively
publicized.

Frankie

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #304
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 18 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 305



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
What does Ditzie look like ?
Format Conversion - Help Needed!
Re: Fudge, Fusion & Steel
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam
re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: For the "humor challenged"
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: Increase your sales by 1500%!!!
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: GT Sublike combat
Re: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality
Re: Grav tank tactics
re: Grav Tank Tactics
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #299

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:34:56 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality

At 20:33 17/03/1999 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>
>>The NECAR 4 uses liquid hydrogen for fuel but production
>>models will probably use methanol due to cost and safety
>>issues. I mean, come on, can you really see trying to
>>skim a gas giant in a Chrysler? :-P
>
>
>After seeing "Heavy Metal", yes, I can!  : )

Not unless they sort out that 280 mile range :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:03:16 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

>A good song from a so-so movie.  I heard that they are going to make a new
>bigger budget version of the Lord of the Rings.  Anybody got any info as to
>the status of the project?

Yes, it's being made down here in New Zealand by Peter Jackson. ( Heavenly
Creatures, Bad Taste, The Frighteners, etc )

 My brother-in-law's doing the sound, a guy up the road is training the
ravens, and my son's piano teacher's son is doing CG work for it. Shows how
big New Zealand is, huh ?
<grin>

There's been regular stuff in our media about it, from our large female
prime-minister visiting Jackson's soundstage and being presented wuith a
preproduction sketch, to the announcement that Orodruin would be White Island,
to that he was using full size actors to play hobbits, and electronically
shrinking  them.

I've been told several ads for extras have appeared at odd times in local
papers.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:29:55 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: What does Ditzie look like ?

These replies are to a bunch of people, so I've compressed it.

Jesse, the picture is wonderful. She's a bit older than I usually imagine
her - I think of her as about 7 years old, rather than the pre-teen in your
sketch. Her expression is perfect though. You did a magnificent job. Whats
a 7 year old doing as a weapons designer and PR flack ? Working for Famile
Spofulam, of course.

Jason, thats pretty close, except I imagine her a bit younger.

Kenji, wrong gender, and much younger. You're right about the pupils though.

Glen, yeah.

Clif, she's 7 years old. Although given the relationship between FS and
Mothers Against Grav Bike Carnage, I doubt you would have many problems
with the Imperial moralists if you did get her to pose on a FS CPR gun.

Dave, well, Ditzie has never been heavily into ideology. I'd advise telling
her you hate Leeeegals and leave it at that.

OK. Now the important bit.

The gun.

Clearly, it's about 1.6 meters by about 0.3 meters, and it doesnt seem to
have any recoil dampening, so it obviously (cues drum roll from FS Gauss
Gun) ... the Famile Spofulam Squad Support Laser. It's got fumes coming out
of it, so I think it's a chemical laser.

On the other hand, it may also be a Circular PAW, and I am not ready (at
this point in time) to deny rumours that it is in fact a Fusion Gun of some
sort.

I'll work up some designs and get back to you all.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:14:49 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Format Conversion - Help Needed!

Hi!
After trying dozens of different types of formats in MSWord 97, I can't
convert Wordpro ".lwp" files (In Australia, we didn't sell Wordpro until
just recently), is there somebody that can help. I've tried the MS Website,
I've tried Edit, I've tried AmiPro (Wordpro by another name) and now I'm
starting to lose hair. I've also tried using AmiPro to convert the files,
but no joy there. Is there someone out there who can help me?

"The face to launch a thousand dredgers."
Jack de Manio, a British broadcaster speaking of the actress Glenda Jackson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:45:19 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fudge, Fusion & Steel

At 21:10 17/03/1999 -0500, Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
wrote:

><Phil>
>Totals                     21.223   42.667
></Phil>
>
>You gotta be shittin' me, you got the values right on?  <Monty Python
>French Guy> Thatza veyray naaice! <MPFG>

"Trust the spreadsheet, the spreadsheet is your friend." :-)

Of course, I didn't cross check the figures by hand,
but I'm a computer person so you wouldn't expect me to. ;-)

The mass does cheat slightly because I had to armour the turret
to get it correct.

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 05:34:18
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

At 09:38 PM 3/18/99 +1300, you wrote:

>And the reason Monty didn't like Patton is because he was a cowboy bigot who
>didn't follow orders, who was more interested in grand-standing and making
>himself look good than actually winning the war

Huh?  You are talking about the guy who turned Third Army around, and
marched on Bastonge in a blizzard to relieve the 101st.  Patton was a
genius at Armored Warfare.  He was also nuts, which got him in constant
trouble.

>I'm surprised even Americans consider Patton any good at warfare.

Something about him winning every battle he ever fought.

>Though he _was_ great at public relations, it wasn't until many years later
>that his nasty habits and cruel treatment of his own troops was effectively
>publicized.

He was almost relieved for slapping a soldier suffering from battle
fatigue.  The story was covered extensively at the time, and Patton
received hundreds of letters telling him he had done the right thing.
Patton was an idiot at public relations.  So much so that Eisenhower
threatened to relive him if he so much as spoke to a reporter without a
script approved by SHAEF.

I'd love to here in private email how you arrived at these conclusions.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 05:28:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

At 11:58 PM 3/17/99 EST, you wrote:
>Aye, that I can.  Cattle prod hooked up to a plasma generator.

Better.  He doesn't get the beer until I get the drawing.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 05:21:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam

At 07:33 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:

>If anyone has those in archives or can point me at a URL, I'd appreciate it.
>Hey Todd, how about a Traveller game at BayCon that involves Ditzie?  :D

Only if I can play Cassandra Gridlore, head of GT's legal department.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:50:38 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Sam Thomas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The "Mighty Mo" had "rippled" bottom from running aground at too high a 
speed. Rather than fix her they decommissioned her.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of the CO you could say: His crew grounds the warship he walks on.*

Isn't the Missouri now serving duty as a museum in Pearl?



Walt Smith

*Switch around "warship" and "ground" in the sentence for the gag. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:22:32 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth

At 08:12 AM 3/18/99 +1100, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>This is the first time I have had a moment to sit down and compose any sort
of missive to the TML. Apologies for being off the air - I haven't even had
time to read any of the TML (from #266 to #291 !!) so I don't know if the
Debate has been cancelled or not. Too bad, even if it has, I am still
working on chiselling "Stephen Alkell" into something resembling order
before I post his reply. Was this Strephon's problem - too many things going
on to cover every one adequately? The old J-O-T dilemma?
>
>Anyway, on to the announcement (and reason for my delayed reply):
>	"David and Leanne are pleased to announce the arrival of their
>	second child, James Alan. Weighing in at 8 lb 3 oz*, he came
>	into the world at 8.12 am on Saturday 6 March 1999. Mother
>	pleased with the 5-hour labour (beats the previous 22hr ordeal)."
>
>	"Mother and child both doing well." ;-)
>
>And yes, pics WILL be posted to the webpage shortly, just as soon as I
>finish my complete revamp of my site. Gee, I may even get around to
>updating my links page!! (one can only hope!!!)
>

Congradulations!!!!  and best wishes for you, your wife, your first child,
and your new arrival.

I trust you have socked away two complete sets of traveller books (all
versions) for your two future gamers...

One bit of advice, don't let them play with that Ditzy girl with the speach
imparement and private arsonal.  If you do their Chrismas wish list might
come out of one or more of the Jane's books!  Nukes are ALMOST as expensive
as a colledge education. 

(GRIN)

All kidding aside, congradulations again and best wishes.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:22:42 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

At 04:45 PM 3/17/99 EST, you wrote:
>> The problem is that at TL9, the tanks will have individual point-defense
>> systems (at least if FS is anywhere near the contract), allowing them to
>> shred a lot of incoming artillery fire. 
>
>Unless arty improves significantly it isn't a serious threat to armor, much
>less grav armor, and point defense isn't needed for a line MBT, though
>possibly specialized support units might maintain some.  

>Does anyone familiar w/ OGRE or the Renegade Legion stuff by FASA have
>anything relevant or any light to shed here?  
>
>
>Gary
>

Yes, self steering smart shells with armor seeking heads.  These already
exist as specialised rounds for mortors.  It's only a matter of time before
the long toms get something similar.  A plunging 105 shell does not make a
good target and it is bid enough to be hard to kill.  It's mass/energy alone
would kill most MBTs.

As for renagade legion, don't forget the THOR systems.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:22:53 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: For the "humor challenged"

At 04:35 PM 3/17/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/17/99 7:48:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>prevattec@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
><< The bar'/inn has been a fixture of all to many games I've played in.
> Everyone uses it in pick up games or to fast start a new group.  I've always
> done my best in campains to make 'the bar' an interesting place.  Sometimes
> a very scary place.  If it is to be the 'gangs' hangout it should have some
> personality.  If it is just an inn on the road to somewhere more interesting
> then I just say, 'You find lodging for the night.  The night passes without
> incident and you continue your journey at dawn.'
>  >>
>
>Quite true; the bar is a sci-fantasy staple...Glenn Cook used them many times
>in his Black Company series. Interesting things always happened in bars...
>
>Ob Trav: use them in adventures...
>

Try having a bad guy or group of bad guys attack the PCs in a crowded
bar/club with no regard to bystanders.  It will curtainly wake up the PCs as
the partiers panic and stanpeed or die in droves.  Like the bar scene from
the Terminater.  She though she would be safe in such a public place.  Prove
them wrong and scare them shitless.  Killer robots that become confused and
shoot at everyone believing them to be theats would be a cute trick too.
The robot were originally designed for perimeter patrol and were badly
reprogramed when they were sent after the PCs.

Charles L.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:23:04 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

At 02:50 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>from the web if you want me to!
>
>Jesse
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>

Not bad, but I think you got the smile wrong.  I think she needs a more
cute/oops/sorry I was just trying it out nervious smile or a I'm to cute to
be mad at smile.  The one she has now looks a little to much like
nervious/guilty/I'm SO sorry for Ditzy.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:57:29 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

UURRAHHH!!!!!!!!!!!  Big guns, and she's a babe as well.  Course, she'd
probably kill you for making a pass at her though.  Or for not doing a
good enough job..........sorry, couldn't resist.................

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:58:45 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:08:24 -0700 Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>j a c wrote:
>> 
>> Oh, please, stop it, your killin' me, stop it, stop it I say, I'm 
>havin'
>> hallucinations of great sky spanning starships propelled by 
>fly-wheels
>> powered up by elephants on carousels chased by mad weasels pursued 
>by
>> Sayat troopers with cattle prods........
>
>It gets worse...look closer...those aren't cattle prods.
>
>-- 
>Bruce Johnson




===
GASP!!!!  <blush>  Oh my Lord!

JimC
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:31:19 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

I'd suspect you have a very good chance of ending up with a schizophrenic
OGRE.  Sounds like a nightmare to me.

JimC

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:25:06 EST Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 3/17/99 3:01:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
>dom@cybergoths.u-
>net.com writes:
>
><< OGRE - Big Nasty Armoured Cybertank; Run away quickly.
> 
> Ob Trav: An Ogre with Virus?
>  >>
>
>How would an Ogre with the Decartes package (true self aware AI 
>sentience...)
>do against virus (fighting off the infection...) ?

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:10:17 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Increase your sales by 1500%!!!

PDSB (Point Defense Spam Batteries) on line and tracking sir.  (Sounds
like another SayBOOM development, eh?)

JimC

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:35:55 -0800 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
writes:
>SHIT!!!!  We've been SPAMMED!!!  Ditzie, grab your cannon!!  Everyone 
>else,
>DUCK!!!
>
>Jesse
>
>
>>YOU CAN INCREASE YOUR SALES 1500%
>>  Overnight by Accepting Major Credit Cards!
>>
>>  Are you turning away your share of more than 375
>>  million sales? That's how many credit cards are being used
>>  nationwide. Charges in 1997 alone topped $1 Trillion!
>>
>>  Regardless of your credit history...
>>  You can accept Visa, Mastercard, American Express and
>>  Discover/Novus, all with the lowest startup cost!
>>
>>  You are Pre-Approved!
>>  You are 100% GUARANTEED to get a merchant account!
>>
>>  Remember your ID number and receive FREE Check Guarantee.
>>
>>  CALL NOW!!!
>>  1-877-SWIPE-CC
>>  ID# 25
>>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:28:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Great job, Jesse!

I must admit, I pictured her about four to five years younger, 
without the curves, but with the same facial expression and general 
features.  The Gun was a great touch!

I sure hope Ian likes it.  Either that, or I'd like to see her end up 
in a future Traveller product.  :)

So, what would you guess she looks like in Ditzie-designed combat 
armor?  :)

Keep On Travellin',
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:37:30 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> types:
>Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
>superiority to avoid defeat.

Hence Patton's comment: "Monty's more worried about not losing 
battles than winning them."




- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend 
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY 
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting. 
              http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:41:57 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> taps out:
>>Montgomery  is one of the most maligned commanders of the 2nd WW
>>(especially by American commentators). Montgomery was a master of the
>>set piece battle (thats why Eisenhower put him in overall command of the
>>Normandy battles). Montgomery had a particular eye for minute detail and
>>was a brillant planner. Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
>>superiority to avoid defeat.
>And the reason Monty didn't like Patton is because he was a cowboy bigot who
>didn't follow orders, who was more interested in grand-standing and making
>himself look good than actually winning the war

    It was probably because Patton was better at winning battles with less 
material than Monty was.  While Patton certainly was flamboyant, at least
he knew it.  Monty strutted about and then tried to assume modesty.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:49:04 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat

Dom wrote...

<<SNIP>>>these awful puns involving Sisters of Mercy song titles.
>
>ObTrav: Hmm... Stuck for this one, suspect the thread has wandered too
far...
>
<<UNSNIP>>

New code for pc's to use?  How many 'pop' fans would know, say, the next
line of a certain song; "Gentlemen, today's password challenge is 'We got
the Kingdom, we got the key'.  You all know the reply...".

  Or even decide on 'nicknames' for places, then away you go...
"Sgt Jones just sang 'Bat Out of Hell', so the bad guys are coming NOE from
the volcano crater..."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:02:07 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality

At 08:33 PM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>The NECAR 4 uses liquid hydrogen for fuel but production
>>models will probably use methanol due to cost and safety
>>issues. I mean, come on, can you really see trying to
>>skim a gas giant in a Chrysler? :-P
>
>
>After seeing "Heavy Metal", yes, I can!  : )
>
>--Clif
>

Now THAT is funny!!!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:14:11 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

SD Mooney wrote:

> Ob Trav: An Ogre with Virus?

only two responses to that: 

wet yourself and cry "I want my momeeee!" 
or 
wet yourself and scream "Game Over MAN!"

Actually speaking, an OGRE with a Virus would be little different than an OGRE.

Mean, nasty, and it's best to fight them with near-c rocks.

"Get out and nuke 'em from the Oort cloud..it's the only way to be sure!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:17:40 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Grav Tank Tactics

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually speaking, an OGRE with a Virus would be little different than an OGRE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Steve Jackson Games web site www.sjgames.com has some
Ogre/GEV fiction on it. One story is of the closing days of the war,
when the Ogre revolt occurred.

Ogres forcing humans into fatally radioactive areas to salvage spare parts
was a scene the heroes were witness to, for example.

By the way, GEV is an acronym (Ground Effect Vehicle), it ought to be
all caps. "Ogre" is a nickname. Not that I'd argue the point with an Ogre...

IIRC, one of the rule books noted that humans serving with the cybertanks
were always a bit scared of them. They never called them She or He...
cybertanks were called It.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:27:13 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Jesse, I like the redering of Ditzie.  Great job.  But somehow I pictured
her somewhat....younger.

Now that Ditzie has a potrait, makes me wonder what the other TML denizens
may look like.

How about her uncle, Hengebar Spofulam?  Or Arameth Gridlore?  Or
Commander X?

Since the commander is my creation, I can help on that end.  I always
pictured him as a tall barrel chested middle aged man.  With greying hair
and Salt-n-Peper breard.  His usual attire is a custom made black dress
tunic made in Imperial Navy style, with a gold "X" crisscrossing it.
Pants are Imperial Navy standard and dark black boots.  An impressive
figure if you ever met him for the first time.

Another picture I'd like to see is the head CEO of SayBOOM demonstrating
the  PMPG in action. 
(Just scary visualising about it!)

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:12:50 -0500
From: Joseph Coles <coles@evtc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #299

>------------------------------

><<  In the early 90's
> Intrepid started to host various sorts of corporate parties and events.
> They found that acting as a disco is much more profitable than being a
> museum.  But all those airplanes got in the way of dancing. So they've got
> rid of them.  Intrepid used to have a very fine collection of aircraft, but
> no more.  his has irritated lots of people and many of the other contributed
> displays (small artifacts, scale models, etc.) on Intrepid have been removed
> by the respective owners.  >>
>
>I haven't lived in New since '90. I heard about the parties and thought it a
>good idea to generate some more money for the museum, but I didn't know that
>they removed the aircraft. I remember that most of the aircraft were on the
>flight deck, and that the hanger deck had some WWII birds, missiles and
>exhibits. What did they remove? If they moved the planes up to the flightdeck;
>I guess that's not too bad, as I asume that the parties are in the hanger
>deck. I wish that they only used some of the hanger deck (1/3 to 1/2) for the
>parties and saved the rest for the museum. Of course a compromise like this
>would make too much sense to do...:-(. Has anybody tried a campaign to stop
>this nonsense like a letter writing campaign. I bet that if a lot of people
>wrote and complained to contributers and to the Marine Corps Association (I
>think that's the name of their fraternal club?); it would embarrrass this
>knucklehead into restoring the exhibits. What's happening the the aircraft?
>Are they being stored elsewhere or are being disposed of? This whole thing
>upsets me greatly, as I used to spend a LOT of time there...

as far as I remember (and I haven't lived in the NY metro area since '93)
some of the aircraft were still owned by the original users and merely on
load to Intrepid. These had been removed and most, I believe, were then lent
to other museums.  Other aircreaft were sold or donated.  I don't remember
the exact numbers, but I seem to recall that Intrepid went from a collection
of about 30 aircraft to something under a dozen.  Keep in mind that all of
this is based on memories that are several years old.  I would be very
pleased to find that the situation there has changed.

>
>Ob Trav: Does the 3I care nothing about History (especially Military History)
>like Americans?
>
- -----------------------------------
Joseph Coles
coles@evtc.com
Full Circle Recycling (www.evtc.com)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #305
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 18 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 306



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Grav Tank Tactics
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)
Patton
BayCon Adventure (Was Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #305
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)
Re: BayCon Adventure (Was Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam)
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: H&K G11
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: Grav Tank Tactics
Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #305

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:40:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

Thanks to everybody who replied on this.  I did not realise that SJG had
already made Traveller CBHs.  I'm searching Crazy Egors for old copies as
I write this.  Also, I downloaded Mike Peters's soldier PDFs.  Nice work
Mike!  

Oh, and Jesse:  Why not a Ditzie counter!?  If you see it on the table,
it's time to RUN! :-)

Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:50:50 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Grav Tank Tactics

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:17:40 -0500 Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
writes:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Actually speaking, an OGRE with a Virus would be little different than 
>an OGRE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>By the way, GEV is an acronym (Ground Effect Vehicle), it ought to be
>all caps. "Ogre" is a nickname. Not that I'd argue the point with an 
>Ogre...

>
>IIRC, one of the rule books noted that humans serving with the 
>cybertanks
>were always a bit scared of them. They never called them She or He...
>cybertanks were called It.
>
>Walt Smith


Sorry, a couple of nit picky points from an old OGRE hand.  Ogre was the
name of the Mk I cybertank first built by the North American Combine in
2060.  The name stuck with the cybertanks as being rather appropriate.

Enemy OGREs are called It, friendly OGREs are called He (very
respectfully, of course)

How many OGREs does it take to change a light bulb?  Just one, but he
just uses a tac nuke to light up the landscape.

Most common phrase used on first sighting an OGRE?  OH
SHI......BOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!

OGRE terms for other units;

friendly OGRE; Bro'
enemy OGRE; Cuz' (why?  Cuz I don't like you)
standard armor units; LIGHT BULBS!!!!
Infantry;  munchies
Arty; target practice
Militia;  a target rich environment

8^)

JimC (OGRE old fart)

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:59:31 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

>>> We are pleased to offer to the Imperial public
>>> our first adaptation of this new technology to the personal energy
>weapons
>>> line, with the Weasel-Human Interface Pistol, or WHIP.
>>
>As a friend of mine used to sing, "Where there's a WHIP, there's a WAY!"

Took me a minute to recall... Its from "The Lord of The Rings" animated
movie.  I believe it was sung by the Uruk-Hai Orcs to their slaves.

The things we store in those unused brain cells.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:04:27 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)

j a c wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry, a couple of nit picky points from an old OGRE hand.  Ogre was the
name of the Mk I cybertank first built by the North American Combine in
2060.  The name stuck with the cybertanks as being rather appropriate.

Enemy OGREs are called It, friendly OGREs are called He (very
respectfully, of course)
>>>>>>>>>>
Ah, It and He, now I remember - it's been some years since I've read that
bit. And "Ogre", as I said, is a nickname, not an acronym.

Unless we start the TML '99 OGRE acronym contest...<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:20:42 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Patton

Patton may have been nuts, but he fought and he knew his onions.

This was the guy who as a junior officer took on most of the establishment
to get a decent cavalry sword, terrorised Mexican bandits by actually
fighting them, and generally got the job done, to hell with the
consequences. When you're that good, I suppose you get arrogant, and results
get you forgiven for being an arrogant sod, or even disobeying orders (Ask
Rommel).

Patton knew how to fight, and he was willing to fight. Friction with others
was a problem, but he knew what he was about. That's how he ended up in
charge... you need these men in war.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:16:55 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: BayCon Adventure (Was Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>At 07:33 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>If anyone has those in archives or can point me at a URL, I'd appreciate
it.
>>Hey Todd, how about a Traveller game at BayCon that involves Ditzie?  :D
>
>Only if I can play Cassandra Gridlore, head of GT's legal department.

SPLURRRTT!!

ROFLMAO! Oh m'gawd, I can see it now!

SWAT Officer: "Sir, here's the list of the hostages."

Police Commander: "What the..?!? Oh, those poor, poor bastards."

SWAT Officer: "Sir, we'll get the hostages out alive."

Police Commander (looking annoyed): "I'm not talking about *them*!"


The Baycon adventure would be:

A group of heavily armed, fanatic terrorists have
captured a number of megacorp executives, which
include Ditzie and Cassandra.

The PCs are hired to resolve the situation by a secret
patron; their mission:  save the terrorists!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:25:09 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #305

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:34:56 +0000
> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality
>
> At 20:33 17/03/1999 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> >
> >>The NECAR 4 uses liquid hydrogen for fuel but production
> >>models will probably use methanol due to cost and safety
> >>issues. I mean, come on, can you really see trying to
> >>skim a gas giant in a Chrysler? :-P
> >
> >
> >After seeing "Heavy Metal", yes, I can!  : )
>
> Not unless they sort out that 280 mile range :-)

The current range on the NECAR 4 is 450km, or 280 mile.  That's not bad, I've got
about a 50 litre tank, the most gas I've ever put in is 44 litre's and I'm getting
between 450-550 km a tank.  So a hydrogen car getting 450 isn't all that bad,
considering the lower boom ratio of H2 to HC.

It's odd that whole H2 explosiveness myth, ever since the whole Hindenburg thing
everyone's been terrified of Hydrogen, most people don't realize, careful marketing
here, that the tank of gas in their car is about 3 times more volitile than a
smiliarly sized tank of Hydrogen.

As for Methanol.  Some of you may remember the 72? 74?  Indy race.  That was
Methanol...

DS

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:45:01 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

>This basically suggests that 'artillery' at traveller levels will either be
>simple infantry support stuff with fairly short ranges (mortars are still
>perfectly useful), have pretty smart terminal guidance systems

Terminal guidance is almost a certainty, though; TL10+ artillery should
have considerable self-maneuvering capability (possibly tiny grav thrusters).

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:53:59 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

DOH!!!!!!  :)

Jesse



>At 11:58 PM 3/17/99 EST, you wrote:
>>Aye, that I can.  Cattle prod hooked up to a plasma generator.
>
>Better.  He doesn't get the beer until I get the drawing.
>-- 
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:56:23 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Oh Gawd, don't get me started on DitzieArmor!!  That could be just TOO much
fun >:D  Hell, maybe a little later.  I have to finish the younger Ditzie
first....

Jesse


=====================
Great job, Jesse!

I must admit, I pictured her about four to five years younger,
without the curves, but with the same facial expression and general
features.  The Gun was a great touch!

I sure hope Ian likes it.  Either that, or I'd like to see her end up
in a future Traveller product.  :)

So, what would you guess she looks like in Ditzie-designed combat
armor?  :)

Keep On Travellin',
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:49:22 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:04:27 -0500 Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
writes:
>j a c wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>bit. And "Ogre", as I said, is a nickname, not an acronym.
>
>Unless we start the TML '99 OGRE acronym contest...<G>
>
>Walt Smith


heheheheheh,

OGRE = Oh God Run Everybody

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:00:26 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon Adventure (Was Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam)

SSSSSSSSSPPPPPRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

[sounds of equipment repair]

Luckily I'm at work so I don't have to use my home stash of repair
components!

I am SERIOUSLY ROFLMAO over this one!!!  That is absolutely priceless David!

Jesse




>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>
>>At 07:33 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>>If anyone has those in archives or can point me at a URL, I'd appreciate
>it.
>>>Hey Todd, how about a Traveller game at BayCon that involves Ditzie?  :D
>>
>>Only if I can play Cassandra Gridlore, head of GT's legal department.
>
>SPLURRRTT!!
>
>ROFLMAO! Oh m'gawd, I can see it now!
>
>SWAT Officer: "Sir, here's the list of the hostages."
>
>Police Commander: "What the..?!? Oh, those poor, poor bastards."
>
>SWAT Officer: "Sir, we'll get the hostages out alive."
>
>Police Commander (looking annoyed): "I'm not talking about *them*!"
>
>
>The Baycon adventure would be:
>
>A group of heavily armed, fanatic terrorists have
>captured a number of megacorp executives, which
>include Ditzie and Cassandra.
>
>The PCs are hired to resolve the situation by a secret
>patron; their mission:  save the terrorists!
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:33:39 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Charles Collin wrote:

> Hi all.  Does anyone own or has anyone used/seen the Cardboard Heroes
> figures from SJG?  I'd like to get people's comments.  
> 
> If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
> Traveller Cardboard Heroes?

There were Traveller Cardboard Heroes for Classic in 15mm.  There were
also some generic Sci-Fi ones in 25mm.  Next Week is the GAMA trade show
and SJ is going to be there.  I have gotten my FLGS owner to promise to
bring up the subject with SJ.  I think if we push for them hard enough,
SJG will repring them.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

  "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
 we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
                        for our fire control system"

> 
> Charles C.
> 
> -----
> "Omnia intelligi possunt"
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:45:50 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

Charles Collin wrote:

> Hi all.  Does anyone own or has anyone used/seen the Cardboard Heroes
> figures from SJG?  I'd like to get people's comments.
>
> If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
> Traveller Cardboard Heroes?

Yes, lets all be loud about this. They were great, I still wonder who
snagged
mine.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:39:54 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
> think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
> of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
> from the web if you want me to!

I always thought see was a pale blonde.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:40:55 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 02:50 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
> >think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
> >of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
> >from the web if you want me to!
>
> Perfect!
>
> How many beers do I need to buy you at BayCon to get you to draw Arameth
> Gridlore?

Speacking of which, when is BayCon this year?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:09:11 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>>>Ob Trav: How does the major interstellar navies classify their ships?
>>By size and role.
>
>But how do roles vary? There are no specialized "submarines" to attack.
>In non-capital ships (<=10,000 tons) I suppose a distinction can be made
>between ships optimized for attacking fighters, or other non-capital ships,
>or capital ships, with armament varying accordingly. Imperial naval doctrine
>in the canon sources seems to be that only capital ships fight other capital
>ships; smaller ships are "escorts" of one kind or another, optimized for
>engaging their smaller brethren. This is fair enough (and a legitimate
>consequence of most Traveller combat systems, especially High Guard) but
>implies that other navies don't work that way - the Solomani or Zhodani or
>Vargr must have small ships designed for attacks against capital ships
>(mostly missiles.) If I were a ship designer I would reserve the
>"destroyer" name for ships with some anti-capital-ship punch, "escort" 
>or "frigate" for others.

I would suggest:

Battleship - back to the `old' definition as `a ship capable of standing
in the line of battle' - in other words, the biggest and fightyest ship
you can build...

Dreadnought - except for this one. Uncompromising on firepower and
armour; expensive as it gets.

Cruiser - A ship capable of independent action. Really, it's going to be
the `light' wing of a battle fleet; with missions including patrol,
recce by force, and fleet scouting. It needs to be the analogue of
German Battlecruisers - able to outfight anything it can't outrun; and
outrun anything it can't outfight.

Destroyer - Although it goes against cannon, this is probably synonymous
with escort. Not designed for action independent of a fleet, they exist
to screen the heavy ships from other light ships; freeing the heavy
forces to engage and destroy enemy heavy forces.

Frigate - Back to the age of sail here, too - it becomes the smallest
ship capable of independent action. It's going to look like a lighter,
cheaper cruiser.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:56:17 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: H&K G11

Clif wrote:

>>Bullets going through a ninety degree turn in two axes is simple?
>
>Two axes?  Try one.

Are we talking about the P90 still? The one where the ammo sits sideways
in a magazine over the barrel?

>>Insensitive munitions are no big deal.
>
>They are if rumors abound that the ammo won't make it in the field.  Also,
>the rounds have no brass to protect their propellant, so this SOLID
>PROPELLANT is what can survive the shock.  Ever played with Model Rockets?
>Try dropping a D-size engine (with a cardboard somewhat protective tubing)
>from an aircraft and see how the solid propellant IN it fares!

There's a difference between military grade propellants (that are
designed not to go off, even when shot) and My First Rocket.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:15:41 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Weekend of May 28th-31st.  Gonna' be there?
Jesse


>Speacking of which, when is BayCon this year?
>
>--
>Evyn...
>
>Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:17:03 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

At 08:14 AM 3/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
>SD Mooney wrote:
>
>> Ob Trav: An Ogre with Virus?
>
>only two responses to that: 
>
>wet yourself and cry "I want my momeeee!" 
>or 
>wet yourself and scream "Game Over MAN!"
>
>Actually speaking, an OGRE with a Virus would be little different than an OGRE.
>
>Mean, nasty, and it's best to fight them with near-c rocks.
>
>"Get out and nuke 'em from the Oort cloud..it's the only way to be sure!"
>

Not the best way though.

The best way would be to star trigger the primarry and then send a Tigeress
Batron in a month latter the finish of the Ogre.  (Grin)

If it were a Bolo model XXXIII or better your best chance is to surrender
quickly to minimize the damage you ARE going to take.  They are in effect
supper Ogres with more brain power that a pack of Pak Protecters.  It's a
little frightening when they are armed with 'planetary bombardment units' as
SECONDARY weapons!  They are tanks the size of the Nimitz.

Great stories though.  Most are about model XX or so units.  Their AI Have
lots of personallity.

One of the defining short stories of the 'Dynachrome Brigade' was one of the
first, "For the Honor of the Regiment".  It delt with the first fully
sentient Bolo.  Unit DNE or Denny was ordered into it's first battle.  His
programers had filled his AI with military history.  In combat he refused to
retreat regardless of the damage he was taking.  Near the 'end' he charged
out of the nuclear crater he was dug into by enemy fire directly into the
thickess part of the enemies lines.  The enemy broke and ran at the sight of
the 'unstopable' super tank.  DNE was a total.  When asked by his designer
why did you do something so tactically stupid, unit DNE said simply, 'For
the honor of the regiment.'

The stories are very well written.

OB traveller:  How would a group of PC deal with an altrusitic and dedicated
to the cause AI?  What type of patron enemy would it make even without a
tank body?  What if a Brusser processor core unit carrried as cargo on the
PC's ship were damaged in shipment and came to like as a senteient?  It
would want to keep on existing.  Perhaps it just want to like peacfully but
the athorities do not want it running arround loose and the PCs get roped
into hunting it down.  Your standarn run amock AI story but with the AI as
the hounded good guy.  The Bolo stories meet 'Mean Dog Blues'?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:17:14 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Grav Tank Tactics

>Sorry, a couple of nit picky points from an old OGRE hand.  Ogre was the
>name of the Mk I cybertank first built by the North American Combine in
>2060.  The name stuck with the cybertanks as being rather appropriate.
>
>Enemy OGREs are called It, friendly OGREs are called He (very
>respectfully, of course)
>
>How many OGREs does it take to change a light bulb?  Just one, but he
>just uses a tac nuke to light up the landscape.
>
>Most common phrase used on first sighting an OGRE?  OH
>SHI......BOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!
>
>OGRE terms for other units;
>
>friendly OGRE; Bro'
>enemy OGRE; Cuz' (why?  Cuz I don't like you)
>standard armor units; LIGHT BULBS!!!!
>Infantry;  munchies
>Arty; target practice
>Militia;  a target rich environment
>
>8^)
>
>JimC (OGRE old fart)
>

Interesting.

Bolos are a bit different though.  They like people and conversation.  Only
maned Bolo fought other bolos normally.  Later Bolos were designed to defend
mankind.  Two Bolos fighting would be very odd as they were built and used
by only one 'side' in the books but the enemy did build similar but
individually inferior unit.  Good old human know-how don't'ch know.

The later Bolos can like people, fall in love, hate, dislike, distrust, ect.
They have a safety curcuit that keeps them under control but in at least one
story a Bolo 'goes rogue' when it learns that is orders where given by a
traitor.  The safety curcuit launches a self distruct virus that in time
kills the Bolo but the Bolo defenses it's mind long enough to 'save the day'
and avenge the murder of it's human commander.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:17:25 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)

At 11:04 AM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>j a c wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>Sorry, a couple of nit picky points from an old OGRE hand.  Ogre was the
>name of the Mk I cybertank first built by the North American Combine in
>2060.  The name stuck with the cybertanks as being rather appropriate.
>
>Enemy OGREs are called It, friendly OGREs are called He (very
>respectfully, of course)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>Ah, It and He, now I remember - it's been some years since I've read that
>bit. And "Ogre", as I said, is a nickname, not an acronym.
>
>Unless we start the TML '99 OGRE acronym contest...<G>
>

How about "Oh God! Run Everybody!"

(GRIN!)

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:16:37 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #305

At 08:25 18/03/1999 -0800, Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:
>Traveller-digest wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:34:56 +0000
>> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>> Subject: Re: Liquid Hydrogen Fuel Vehicle A Reality
>>
>> At 20:33 17/03/1999 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>The NECAR 4 uses liquid hydrogen for fuel but production
>> >>models will probably use methanol due to cost and safety
>> >>issues. I mean, come on, can you really see trying to
>> >>skim a gas giant in a Chrysler? :-P
>> >
>> >
>> >After seeing "Heavy Metal", yes, I can!  : )
>>
>> Not unless they sort out that 280 mile range :-)
>
>The current range on the NECAR 4 is 450km, or 280 mile.  That's not bad,
<snip>

Oops, sorry, unclear...

I was referring to trying to do gas giant skimming with a 280 km range.

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #306
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 18 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 307



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)
Re: BayCon Adventure (Was Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam)
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Grav Tank Tactics
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Grav-Ball T-shirt design in progress..
Re: Fusion Guns
TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)
KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
How do I get off this list?
BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam
[Fwd: Naval funny]
Famille Spofulam background

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:18:53 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

Hey, didn't you hear? I upgraded to the new weasel3 system!


>"Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> stitches out on his
>weasel powered sewing terminal:

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:26:08 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

In a message dated 3/17/99 11:24:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< Montgomery  is one of the most maligned commanders of the 2nd WW
 (especially by American commentators). Montgomery was a master of the
 set piece battle (thats why Eisenhower put him in overall command of the
 Normandy battles). Montgomery had a particular eye for minute detail and
 was a brillant planner. Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
 superiority to avoid defeat. >>

ie, he was too cautious, but I'm a biased American...

Ob Trav: Santanocheev Vs. Norris...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:37:19 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would suggest:

Battleship - back to the `old' definition as `a ship capable of standing
in the line of battle' - in other words, the biggest and fightyest ship
you can build...

Dreadnought - except for this one. Uncompromising on firepower and
armour; expensive as it gets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I get the idea that a CT Dreadnaught differs from a CT Battleship in
specialization. A Battleship carries the honkingest big spinal mount, 
extensive secondary weapons, and all the armor you can get. A 
Dreadnaught carries all that plus fighter wings, Marine assault brigades (or 
battalions), etc. Makes the Dreadnaughts lots bigger.

Matt again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Cruiser - A ship capable of independent action. Really, it's going to be
the `light' wing of a battle fleet; with missions including patrol,
recce by force, and fleet scouting. It needs to be the analogue of
German Battlecruisers - able to outfight anything it can't outrun; and
outrun anything it can't outfight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Agreed. Myself, I distinguish Battlecruisers from Cruisers by armament - 
the Battlecruiser has the same spinal mount the Battleships use, the
Cruiser has a smaller spinal but more secondary weapons, armor, 
agility, whatever fits in the space not given to the bigger spinal. This
makes the Cruiser more multi-role than the Battlecruiser, but I often
mix the two in independent squadrons - a BC flagship with a couple
of CA/CS wingmen.

I like to make cruisers lighter and faster, and give a small fighter
compliment (like AHL carries) to the longer-ranging types that may have
to pretend to be a fleet all by their lonesome.

Matt again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Destroyer - Although it goes against cannon, this is probably synonymous
with escort. Not designed for action independent of a fleet, they exist
to screen the heavy ships from other light ships; freeing the heavy
forces to engage and destroy enemy heavy forces.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I base my Destroyers on the idea that a TL 6 wet navy Destroyer could,
if lucky, take out a Battleship in one shot. Get in close, open up with
your torpedo tubes and hope you didn't get torn to scrap in the process.
Thus my Destroyers are lightly armored, agile ships with the smallest
available spinal mount. Since I like to work at TL12, this is an HG Meson
C spinal. Ton for ton, a pack of these might make short work of an
enemy dreadnaught in a turn or two - which might be their lifespan against
such a foe.

Matt again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Frigate - Back to the age of sail here, too - it becomes the smallest
ship capable of independent action. It's going to look like a lighter,
cheaper cruiser.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My Frigates and Corvettes are light patrol/escort craft. I often make Frigates 
in the 2000-5000 ton range so I can give them a missile bay or two,
Covettes are anything smaller.

I also make Escorts - ships up to Destroyer size, with high agility and
a lot of turret weapon batteries for work against fighters and 1500tn
missile boats.

Oh, yeah, I also make 1500 ton missile boats...<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:40:50 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon Adventure (Was Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam)

At 10:16 AM 3/18/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>
>>At 07:33 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>>If anyone has those in archives or can point me at a URL, I'd appreciate
>it.
>>>Hey Todd, how about a Traveller game at BayCon that involves Ditzie?  :D
>>
>>Only if I can play Cassandra Gridlore, head of GT's legal department.
>
>SPLURRRTT!!
>
>ROFLMAO! Oh m'gawd, I can see it now!
>
>SWAT Officer: "Sir, here's the list of the hostages."
>
>Police Commander: "What the..?!? Oh, those poor, poor bastards."
>
>SWAT Officer: "Sir, we'll get the hostages out alive."
>
>Police Commander (looking annoyed): "I'm not talking about *them*!"
>
>
>The Baycon adventure would be:
>
>A group of heavily armed, fanatic terrorists have
>captured a number of megacorp executives, which
>include Ditzie and Cassandra.
>
>The PCs are hired to resolve the situation by a secret
>patron; their mission:  save the terrorists!
>
>

PSUSTTT! COUGH! GAG! CHOKE!

OK, does anybody know how to get Orange Crush ouf a computer monitor and out
of a keyboard?!

In the future PLEASE put a warning of stuff like this NOT to read during lunch.

VERY FUNNY JOKE!

VERY SCARY ADVENTURE!!!!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:22:35 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

In a message dated 3/17/99 9:41:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< Actually, I think this could be a serious suggestion. 
 
 Jesse, what about doing a line of Cardboard Starships?  How hard would it
 be to create (a) top-down views for counters (usable with, say, Full
 Thrust), or (b) double-sided cardboard models (like those old 'slide
 fuselage over wings' airplanes)?
 
 I know you've got the models already created. Would this be a lot of extra
 work?
  >>

How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA starship
combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:37:05 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Grav Tank Tactics

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:17:14 +0000 Charles Prevatte
<prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>Interesting.
>
>Bolos are a bit different though.  They like people and conversation.  


Oh, yes, gotta love those Bolos.  I do.  They are a LOT different from
Ogres.  Don't forget the story about the Mk XXXIII that wakes up in an
enemies laboratory, and proceeds to take over, and in the end frees its
comrades and they basically take over the planet.  Then they find that
the war has been over for decades (IIRC), so the lead Bolo relaxes, sets
up a pattern of stellar observations, and puts on his favorite music,
while waiting for the relief column which will take 40+ years to get
there.  The Mk XXXIII is called a planetary siege unit, weighs in at
somewhere over 30,000 tons, and uses CG to land itself on a target world.
 Its weapons are starship class, and is capable of using them to defend
itself as it comes down.  Wicked weapon, gotta love em.

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:27:37 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

In a message dated 3/18/99 1:36:16 AM Pacific Standard Time,
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< I'm surprised even Americans consider Patton any good at warfare. >>

he took ground....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:38:17 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

In a message dated 3/18/99 9:36:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, pengebos@NMSU.Edu
writes:

<< There were Traveller Cardboard Heroes for Classic in 15mm.  There were
 also some generic Sci-Fi ones in 25mm.  Next Week is the GAMA trade show
 and SJ is going to be there.  I have gotten my FLGS owner to promise to
 bring up the subject with SJ.  I think if we push for them hard enough,
 SJG will repring them. >>

I'm working the booth. I'll tell him that all of the TML'ers are foaming at
the mouth for these....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:04:03 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

Never saw them, but I'm sure it's do-able.  If I were to do something like
this, what is the size that the counters, cubes, whatever should be?

Jesse




>In a message dated 3/17/99 9:41:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:
>
><< Actually, I think this could be a serious suggestion.
>
> Jesse, what about doing a line of Cardboard Starships?  How hard would it
> be to create (a) top-down views for counters (usable with, say, Full
> Thrust), or (b) double-sided cardboard models (like those old 'slide
> fuselage over wings' airplanes)?
>
> I know you've got the models already created. Would this be a lot of extra
> work?
>  >>
>
>How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA starship
>combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:11:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Grav-Ball T-shirt design in progress..

Hey, gang!  The design for the Grav-Ball t-shirt is underway and I'd
like some input.

First off, let me describe the artwork.  There is a single floating
player in a short-sleeved blue jumpsuit, wearing protective eyeware,
leaping directly towards you, the viewer.  The glowing golden grav-ball
is floating in the foreground (between you and him) just out of his
reach.  This is all surrounded by a white nimbus and is pictured against
the red Imperial Sunburst, which is the standard for the IISS.

I'll be posting the artwork on a website by this weekend for everyone
to view and critique.  BTW, I will accept any and all recommendations
for changes, but reserve the right to implement any of them as I see
fit.  However, if anyone else on the list would like to offer alternate
designs to mine, I'll be glad to display them on the same website, so
as to give the assembled TML more than one choice.

What I'm really interested in getting from the list is *TEXT*.  What
should the t-shirt say?  I'm considering phrases like:

    IISS 114th Exploration Branch
        Efate Grav-Ball Team      (above artwork)

    "Taking ACM to a new level"   (below artwork)

What I want is input from the entire TML.  I'd like to take a couple
weeks to collect what folks want printed *ABOVE* and *BELOW* the art-
work.  Let's set the end of the month as the cutoff date for submissions.
Then, I'll put all the entries on the the web-site with the artwork and
we'll give everyone a week to vote.  There will be separate votes for
the TEXT ABOVE and the TEXT BELOW.  Majority votes win.  BTW, TML
members can vote multiple times, but only the last vote counts.  (That
way,if you change your mind, you can vote again.)

'Til later,

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:38:52 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fusion Guns

>>>>How do you build a tank barrel which can handle the heat and shock of a
>>>>plasma bolt hot enough to melt the frontal armour of a heavy grav tank?
>>>
>>>You don't.
>>>
>>>Plasmas are contained, accelerated,  and directed using magnetic or other
>>>non-materiel,  fields. The "barrel" merely acts as a support for the
>>>field-generation and control equipment.
>>>
>>>Of course, the barrel still needs to be built tough to withstand
>battlefield
>>>conditions.
>>
>>But where does the heat go? Especially with a Rapid Fire Plasma Gun...
>
>Into the enemy tank :-)
>
>The heat theoretically doesn't get transferred thru the magnetic "bottle"
> the one with a hole in it pointing at the enemy tank every second or so) very
>much, especially if the space containing the field is evacuated so the barrel
>doesn't  get too hot, except perhaps round the contact point for the vacuum
>seal at the end......

Hmmm, well you need a vacuum in the chamber anyway where the fusion/plasma
is created.  Once made it can be propelled outwards.  Making a vacuum in
the barrel implies all sorts of other problems; how do you keep the vacuum
under battlefield conditions?  you know that you're going to take a hit or
two in the course of things - if the vacuum is lost after a near miss or
two you're just riding around inside 100 tons of paperweight.

In addition, the temperatures required to "make" fusion (and plasma, but
not in the barrel) are quite significant, but that can be shielded from the
barrel and the materials that are close can be made now (molybdenum is
typically used in experimental reactors).  This can be further helped by
"temporarily" making a vacuum in the barrel via the use of an initial burst
of energy through the tubeway.  Or perhaps some extreme "barrel evacuator"
at the business end around the opening.

What I'm actually worried about is the magnetics in the barrel which are
propelling the plasma/fusion and keeping it away from the surface of the
barrel.    This stuff has to be all along the barrel in coils, and at
operating power electromagnets can get very hot.  My only benchmark, the
Experimental Fusion device over my left shoulder, goes through about
$220,000 worth of liquid nitrogen (at $0.23 per 100 cubic feet) for cooling
the reactor vessel a year.  I'm told that the majority of the heat is from
the magnets, not the reaction itself, which has a molecular density so low
it doesn't make much transmitted heat at all.

Those barrels, especially at low tech levels, are going to be massive,
stubby things with lots of projections and such - overengineered to resist
damage and increase tolerances.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:19:12 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)

I just had a wild idea with all the talk of portraits and carboard heroes
and such.
Has anyone thought of TML personality trading cards?

Hav a portrait with various stats on the bottom.  Most ships built in a
single year, number of units sold to Merc groups, highest destructive
yield with a man portible weapon, etc...


I can see it now, kids in the Imperium trading these cards...

Kid #1 "You got a Ditzie Spofulam Rookie Card?"

Kid #2 "Yeah, sweet aint it?"

Kid #1 "I'll trade you an Arameth Gridlore and 2 Commander X's for it!"

Kid #2 "No way dude, this sucker is priceless!"

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:27:57 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

|How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA starship
|combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...

Origami Starships!  




==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com 
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:34:41 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)

SSSSSPPLLLLLLORRRRRRRRRKKKK   HACK COUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A Whopper sprayed on your keyboard is not a pretty thing!!!  :)

That is absolutely too classic dude!!!

Jesse




>I just had a wild idea with all the talk of portraits and carboard heroes
>and such.
>Has anyone thought of TML personality trading cards?
>
>Hav a portrait with various stats on the bottom.  Most ships built in a
>single year, number of units sold to Merc groups, highest destructive
>yield with a man portible weapon, etc...
>
>
>I can see it now, kids in the Imperium trading these cards...
>
>Kid #1 "You got a Ditzie Spofulam Rookie Card?"
>
>Kid #2 "Yeah, sweet aint it?"
>
>Kid #1 "I'll trade you an Arameth Gridlore and 2 Commander X's for it!"
>
>Kid #2 "No way dude, this sucker is priceless!"
>
>\\  // Commander X
> \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
>T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
> //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
>//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:51:28 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the quality
is better as well.

Best,
Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:29:53 -0500
From: Robert Glaub <rwglaub@smart.net>
Subject: How do I get off this list?

Can someone please tell me how I get off this list? I lost the
instruction sheet...

Thanks.

Robert Glaub
rwglaub@smart.net
http://www.smart.net/~rwglaub

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:48:34 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Weekend of May 28th-31st.  Gonna' be there?
> Jesse

 Thinking about it. Yes if the Wife leaves me, Maybe if she's
still here. How's that for the grimest line on the list?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:50:52 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 07:33 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >If anyone has those in archives or can point me at a URL, I'd appreciate it.
> >Hey Todd, how about a Traveller game at BayCon that involves Ditzie?  :D
>
> Only if I can play Cassandra Gridlore, head of GT's legal department.

That depends Doug how do look in Leather and Kevlar thigh boots with
6" spike heels?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:02:11 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: [Fwd: Naval funny]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------9750D58FEE8A5404C3BAF05F
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Got this off of alt.folklore.military.

Could be very close to Travelling

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999


- --------------9750D58FEE8A5404C3BAF05F
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Path: news!global-news-master!newsfeed.concentric.net!netnews.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail
From: redc1c4 <redc1c4@bigREMOVEfoot.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.military
Subject: Naval funny
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:50:08 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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X-ELN-Date: 2 Mar 1999 06:51:07 GMT
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Reply-To: redc1c4@bigREMOVEfoot.com
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U)
Xref: news alt.folklore.military:31106

got this from an army buddy who's gotten out.......sounded alot like
USA, not just USN.
redc1c4

Navy Sea Duty At Home

I am speaking today on behalf of those of us who have family members
that think we live a "TOP GUN" existence. You know, those family members

that have watched one too many episodes of JAG, and think that Navy life
is
glamorous.
I have a few suggestions for these people on how they can experience
Navy
life, right in the comfort of their own homes.

1. Buy a dumpster, paint it gray and live in it for 6 months straight.
2. Run all of the piping and wires inside your house on the outside of
the walls.
3. Pump 10 inches of nasty, crappy water into your basement, then pump
    it out, clean up, and paint the basement "deck gray"
4. Every couple of weeks, dress up in your best clothes and go the
scummiest
    part of town, find the most run down, trashy bar you can, pay $10
per beer
    until you're hammered, then walk home in the freezing cold.
5. Perform a weekly disassembly and inspection of your lawnmower.
6. On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays turn your water temperature up
    to 200 degrees, then on Tuesday and Thursday turn it down to 10
degrees.  On
    Saturdays, and Sundays declare to your entire family that they used
too much
    water during the week, so all showering is secured.
7. Raise your bed to within 6 inches of the ceiling.
8. Have your next door neighbor come over each day at 5am, and blow a
    whistle so loud that Helen Keller could hear it and shout "Reveille,
Reveille,
    all hands heave out and trice up"
9. Have your mother-in-law write down everything she's going to do the
    following day, then have her make you stand in the back yard at 6am
and read
    it to you.
10. Eat the raunchiest Mexican food you can find for three days
      straight, then lock the bathroom door for 12 hours, and hang a
sign on it that reads
      "Secured contact OA DIV at ext..-3053"
11. Submit a request form to your father-in-law, asking if it's OK for
      you to leave your house before 3pm.
12. Invite 200 of your not-so-closest friends to come over, then board
      up all the windows and doors to your house for 6 months.  After
the 6 months
      is up, take down the boards, and since you're on duty, wave at
your friends
      and family through the front window of your home...you can't leave
until
      the next day.
13. Shower with above-mentioned friends.
14. Make your family qualify to operate all the appliances in your home
      (i.e.Dishwasher operator, blender technician,etc)
15. Walk around your car for 4 hours checking the tire pressure every
      15 minutes.
16. Sit in your car and let it run for 4 hours before going anywhere.
      This is to ensure your engine is properly "lit off".
17. Empty all the garbage bins in your house, and sweep your driveway 3
      times a day, whether they need it or not.
18. Repaint your entire house once a month.
19. Cook all of your food blindfolded, groping for any spice and
      seasoning you can get your hands on.
20. Have your neighbor collect all your mail for a month, randomly
      losing every 5th item.
21. Spend $20,000 on a satellite system for your TV, but only watch CNN
      and the Weather Channel.
22. Have your 5-year-old cousin give you a haircut with goat shears.
23. Sew back pockets to the front of your pants.
24. Spend 2 weeks in the red-light districts of Europe, and call it
"world travel"
25. Attempt to spend 5 years working at McDonalds, and NOT get promoted.

26. Ensure that any promotions you do get are from stepping on the dead
      bodies of your co-workers.
27. Needle gun the aluminum siding on your house after your neighbors
have gone to bed.
28. When your children have been in bed for 3 hours, run into their room
with a
      megaphone, and shout at the top of your lungs that your home is
under
      attack, and order them to man their battle stations.
29. Post a menu on the refrigerator door informing your family that you
      are having steak for dinner. Then make them wait in line for at
least an
      hour, when they finally get to the kitchen, tell them that you are
out of
      steak, but you have dried ham or hot dogs. Repeat daily until they
don't pay
      attention to the menu any more they just ask for hot dogs.
30. In the middle of January, place a podium at the end of your
      driveway. Have you family stand watches at the podium, rotating at
4-hour intervals.
31. Lock yourself and your family in your house for 6 weeks. Then tell
      them that at the end of the 6th week you're going to take them to
Disneyland
      for "weekend liberty". When the end of the 6th week rolls around,
inform
      them that Disneyland has been canceled due to the fact that they
need to get
      ready for E-cert, and that it will be another week before they can
leave the
      house.

Put your family through these, and then let them tell you how glamorous
Navy life is.



- --------------9750D58FEE8A5404C3BAF05F--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:47:06 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Famille Spofulam background

Ross,

Can you ask Roderick if he's still got the ZIP file with all the original
Spofulam stuff in. I can host it at my site if he wants to make it
available.

It may satisfy some curiousity around here....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #307
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 18 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 308



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Sublike combat
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?
RE: Delay in Replying due to a Birth
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
FS FwdObsvr Ops (was Re: Grav tank tactics)
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: Cardboard Heroe
Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Now I know what happened to IG's stock of Traveller items...
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #302
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
Re: Grav Tank Tactics
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:58:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat

"Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>New code for pc's to use?  How many 'pop' fans would know, say, the next
>line of a certain song; "Gentlemen, today's password challenge is 'We got
>the Kingdom, we got the key'.  You all know the reply...".


We got the Empire, now as then?

>  Or even decide on 'nicknames' for places, then away you go...
>"Sgt Jones just sang 'Bat Out of Hell', so the bad guys are coming NOE from
>the volcano crater..."

Now this is a cool idea, especially if you combined it with the TNE handles
and MT Hard Times Slang.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:10:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com> wrote:

>I'm pretty late to this thread, so if this has already been mentioned,
>forgive me. David Drake's "Hammer's Slammers" has a pretty excellent story
>or two on using hovertanks. Now, these are more like hovercraft than grav
>tanks.

If you can, have a play on an Atari Jaguar, with the game 'Hoverstrike'. It
looks dated now, and isn't the best, but gives you an idea of the challenge
of piloting a hovertank. If there are two of you, one can be the gunner,
the other the pilot!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:02:49 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?

OUCH!!!!!!  I feel for you bro'.  Been there, done that.
Jesse

> Thinking about it. Yes if the Wife leaves me, Maybe if she's
>still here. How's that for the grimest line on the list?
>
>--
>Evyn...
>
>Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:09:41 +1100
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Subject: RE: Delay in Replying due to a Birth

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE71F2.0A8EAF20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Folks -

>Weighing in at 8 lb 3 oz*

* I forgot to add my comment about using Imperial units in a metric =
country! *Officially*, James is 3740 grams, but NO-ONE uses metric when =
talking baby weights. I guess it's a case where the inability to compare =
pre-metric-conversion numbers to post-, combined with inability to =
_visualise_ that many grams, means that the old measurements win out.

ObTrav: Each planet has to use the Imperial Calendar when dealing with =
Imperial business, but each world has its own revolution period ("year") =
around its central star. How often do the lines get blurred when dealing =
with the local and Imperial calendars?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE71F2.0A8EAF20--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:21:53 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

There were, in fact, Traveller Cardboard heroes a long time ago.  I own the 3 sets (marines, Zhodani, & Travellers).  
They are great!  Hopefully, with the success of G:T they will also be reborn!!!

The ones currently published have monstors, battle axes, etc. ... good for 
fantasy games.

>  Cardboard Heroes
> 
> Hi all.  Does anyone own or has anyone used/seen the Cardboard Heroes
> figures from SJG?  I'd like to get people's comments.  
> 
> If they're a good product, perhaps we should start lobbying for some
> Traveller Cardboard Heroes?
> 
> Charles C.


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:23:56 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

Jesse DeGraff posted:
>
>OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
>working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the quality
>is better as well.
>
>Best,
>Jesse
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

JACKPOT!!!!

Your new illo is *exactly* as I pictured Ditzie.

My hat is off to you (for the 8th time).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:34:13 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

Assuming I'm not way behind the power curve here, I like the "#2" scout
better.  Not only does the weight distribution thing seem to ring positive in
my noggin, but I always think its gives character and looks better.  

Damn Jesse...  I don't suppose you could put a Reformation Coalition Aurora
Class Clipper on the queue, could you?  I can envision an RC Guide to the
Aurora Clipper w/ some of your artwork on the front...  aaaah. 

And finally I take a look at the Ditzie pix (sounds like I'm browsing a porn
site or something) lol.  I'm thinking I need to put Ditzie in the New Era
somewhere as an NPC.  Maybe have a division of FS in the Reformation Coalition
w/ a Ditzie clone or soemthing...  

Hey Kenji, does Jesse know bout the PMPP?  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:34:06 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: FS FwdObsvr Ops (was Re: Grav tank tactics)

>         The problem with this, Gary, is you missed the original gun's
> spec...  4000m/sec flight speed with a hail range of 100km, with the shells

I just skimmed them when they came around the first time.   Was that the one
in "Ditzie speak" or the one after it?  

I remember the one after had a (presumably FFS2) 'pen factor' (is this the
same as TNE pen value?) that was only 2 hundred something.  That wouldn't
penetrate a Trepida.  

As you describe it, it would indeed be a nightmare, but somehow I didn't get
that from the Ditzie and FS described weapons...  My only question would be on
the ability to really hide the platform from detection (EMS especially).  If
it's mobile, it should be visible.  If it's fortified/hidden, if it's found,
it's dead.  Arty, in today's TL-8 world anyways, relies on the ability to
move.  They fire (the whole process from ranging to full barrage) then boogey
out to somewhere else so they don't get themselves dead.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:38:58 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

If asked (and no one did) I'd suggest something like  FASA did with
their Interceptor game, print the front, rear, top, right and left views
and shape them into boxes. These make fairly manageable paper "Mini"s.
I've used the ones from Interceptor in several games... except
Interceptor itself!

Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Actually, for the ship counters, rendering a shot from the proper
> perspective is quite simple.  You just move the camera around a click away
> from the ship, then zoom the camera back in all the way.  What this does is
> gets rid of the perspective warping that you'd otherwise see.  It's
> identical to useing a telephoto lens with your camera.  When you're zoomed
> all the way, the picture is "flattened" quite a bit.
> 
> Maybe once the Starport project is done I'll have time to do something like
> that and post it....
> 
> Jesse

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:34:08 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroe

> |How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA starship
> |combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...
> 
> Origami Starships!  

The ones TSR made for Spelljammer certainly made things fun.  Do these things
make money for the publisher?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:34:10 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)

> I get the idea that a CT Dreadnaught differs from a CT Battleship in
> specialization. A Battleship carries the honkingest big spinal mount, 
> extensive secondary weapons, and all the armor you can get. A 
> Dreadnaught carries all that plus fighter wings, Marine assault brigades (or
> battalions), etc. Makes the Dreadnaughts lots bigger.

I think Supp 9 would bear that out.  My interpretation of the whole thing was
that DNs are BB's (look at the ship profiles in Supp 9... all BBs, even the
"dreadnaughts"), though not all BBs are DNs.  That DN was more of a
designation that something was "first line" rather than secondary/colonial. 

Cruisers I've always thought of as BBs w/o the armor or secondary weaponry.
BB style spinal mounts, but less secondary weaponry and armor.  I don't think
we have any models of BCs.  I would imagine this would be like a BB, but
lacking the secondary weaponry or armor, but having the other.  So just one up
on a cruiser and one down from a true BB.  YMMV

> Matt again:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Destroyer - Although it goes against cannon, this is probably synonymous
> with escort. Not designed for action independent of a fleet, they exist
> to screen the heavy ships from other light ships; freeing the heavy
> forces to engage and destroy enemy heavy forces.

I don't think that goes against canon.  The Midu is supposed to be a fleet
ship.

> I also make Escorts - ships up to Destroyer size, with high agility and
> a lot of turret weapon batteries for work against fighters and 1500tn
> missile boats.

Don't forget the "big" escorts of Rapier/ED-15 fame.  Something intermediate
between cruisers and DDs.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:44:37 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:21:29 -0500, "Jesse DeGraff"
<fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>from the web if you want me to!

>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

Pretty good, Jesse.  If it wasn't for that pocket knife she was
trying to hide, and if I didn't know what she did for a living
(and under what conditions), I'd consider flirting with her.
However, I'm quite fond of living, thank you.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:42:20 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

This'll teach me not to read all of my mail before replying! Great idea
Seth, I cast my vote this way.

Mike

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
> 
> How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA starship
> combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:36:08 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

They both are *Excellent* work!!

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie


>Jesse DeGraff posted:
>>
>>OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
>>working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the
quality
>>is better as well.
>>
>>Best,
>>Jesse
>>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>JACKPOT!!!!
>
>Your new illo is *exactly* as I pictured Ditzie.
>
>My hat is off to you (for the 8th time).
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:37:41 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Now I know what happened to IG's stock of Traveller items...

see below -

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: MWJ342@aol.com <MWJ342@aol.com>
To: douglas@teleport.com <douglas@teleport.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 3:20 PM
Subject: Traveller


>Dear Traveller
> I have just received a very large shipment of Marc Miller's Traveller
books
>and games. I would like to offer them to you at a special price. I now
carry
>over $13,000 in inventory of products from Marc Miller's Traveller. If you
are
>interested in any of these please contact me ASAP, because these will be
going
>very fast due to great prices. Here is a list of what I have avaiable. Note
>all books are brand new.
>
> MARC MILLER'S TRAVELLER LIST
>
>1. Anomalies retail $22.95  my price $5.95
>2. First Survey retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>3. Psionic Institutes retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>4. Milievo Campaign retail $29.95 my price $7.95
>5. Missions of State retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>6. Game Screen retail $12.95 my price $2.95
>7. Emperor's Aresnal retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>8. Milieu O retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>9. Long Way Home retail $12.95 my price $2.95
>10. Emperor's Vechicles retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>11. Aliens Archive retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>12. Pocket Empires retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>13. Fire, Fusion &Steel retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>14. Gateway retail $12.95 my price $2.95
>15. Annililik Run retail $12.95 my price $2.95
>16. Central Supply Catalog retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>17. Naval Architect's Manual retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>18. Imperial Squadrons retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>
>Please E-Mail me at MWJ342@aol.com
>
>You pay actual shipping cost I will ship any way you would like
> Thanks,
> Mark
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:49:28 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:17:49 -0500, "Joseph Kimball"
<HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:

>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>from the web if you want me to!

>What?  Not a blonde?  I definitely think of Ditzie as a blonde.  [Now
>don't get me wrong, I like blonds - hey, I'm MARRIED to a blonde!]

Naah, Blondes don't usually have that sadistic streak that Ditzie
has.  Ditzie is definitely a redhead.  I mean, bright, coppery
RED-head.  Don't let her stand in the sun; you'll be blinded.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:37:29 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

I like the younger picture of Ditzie too.  I still think a blonde
version would be appropriate though <G>.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:50:19 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

HEY NEAT, multi-Millieu Ditzies!!!! Lessee, if the first picture was in
Year 0 then the second would be... Year 18/19 ? Guess I'm moving my
campaign!

Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
> working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the quality
> is better as well.
> 
> Best,
> Jesse
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:57:02 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #302

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:34:59 -0500, Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
wrote:

>Very nice work, as usual, Jesse.

>I guess you're among those who see Ditzie as a teenager. I think this is
>missing the gag, though; as Ditzie's inability to pwonounce her R's
>indicates that she's barely of grade school age.

Naah, the psychochemicals have stunted her mental development.
Besides, Barbara Walters can't even pronounce her own name, and
she's older than Jesse's Ditzie.

Of course, you could always change the interpretations - the top
one is what she'll look like in 10-15 years (if FS lets her
live); the bottom one is what she looks like now...


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:54:54 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

Actually, voting's been nearly largely in favor of "Damn the geometry, full
CT ahead :)"  I'll either be flattening what I've got down towards classic
Scout lines, or just re-building it with the correct lines.

Please say the Aurora Class Clipper is the Gazelle with the Scout grafted to
the front....No offense, but I can't stand that ship (if that's the one).

I'm working on Ditzie in a "Hostile Environment Fun Suit", aka
"BabyBattledress" or "Ditzie's Playsuit".  If anyone can come up with a
better name, let me know!!!!

PMPP?.......Can't say as I remember seeing anything about that
anywhere......


Jesse



>Assuming I'm not way behind the power curve here, I like the "#2" scout
>better.  Not only does the weight distribution thing seem to ring positive
in
>my noggin, but I always think its gives character and looks better.
>
>Damn Jesse...  I don't suppose you could put a Reformation Coalition Aurora
>Class Clipper on the queue, could you?  I can envision an RC Guide to the
>Aurora Clipper w/ some of your artwork on the front...  aaaah.
>
>And finally I take a look at the Ditzie pix (sounds like I'm browsing a
porn
>site or something) lol.  I'm thinking I need to put Ditzie in the New Era
>somewhere as an NPC.  Maybe have a division of FS in the Reformation
Coalition
>w/ a Ditzie clone or soemthing...
>
>Hey Kenji, does Jesse know bout the PMPP?  ;-)
>
>
>Gary
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:48:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Grav Tank Tactics

At 10:50 AM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Most common phrase used on first sighting an OGRE?  OH
>SHI......BOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!

Ha.  OGREs don't frighten me.  I mastered the four-howitzer defense early.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:03:56
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

At 10:27 AM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Or Arameth Gridlore?

Arameth is tall (over 2m) and thin to the point of being skeletal.  He
obviously is the product of a zero-g enviroment, and when forced to exist
in a normal g-field, travels in a grav chair.  He has thin white hair
(sholuder length, bald on top.) His face is best described as severe.

Arameth wears loose fitting ship jumpsuits for the most part.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:06:22
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

At 08:50 AM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Sam Thomas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The "Mighty Mo" had "rippled" bottom from running aground at too high a 
>speed. Rather than fix her they decommissioned her.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Of the CO you could say: His crew grounds the warship he walks on.*

Ghu-dammnit!! I just cleaned this desk!!!!

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:28:18 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> Naah, Blondes don't usually have that sadistic streak that Ditzie
> has.  Ditzie is definitely a redhead.  I mean, bright, coppery
> RED-head.  Don't let her stand in the sun; you'll be blinded.

We must have date very different Blondes then. Mine was
cool calculating and had no idea what she wanted.
And the redhead turned out tobe Bi-Polar.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:41:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 

> PMPP?.......Can't say as I remember seeing anything about that
> anywhere......

Pelvic Mounted Plasma Pistol...a particularly twisted design that
SAYBOOM introduced just after a TML discussion of From Dusk Till Dawn
movie with Quentin Tarantino and George Clooney. One of the bad guys
wears a pistol that is strapped to his crotch in a pop-up holster. 

(This weapon also makes an brief appearance in Desperado, and is
allegedly one of the scarier things in the guitar case in El Mariachi)

Scary thing is...the PMPP being a plasma weapon, has a recoil like the
kick of a mule.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #308
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 18 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 309



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Grav Tank Tactics
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)
Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
SPAM??????
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #307
Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
Re: H&K G11
Re: [Fwd: Naval funny]
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: Increase your sales by 1500%!!!
Re: Patton
Re: [Fwd: Naval funny]
Re: Grav-Ball T-shirt design in progress..
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
Re: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)
Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
RE: What DOES Ditzie look like?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:42:29 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Grav Tank Tactics

If I remember that defense correctly, it would be more accurate to say AN
Ogre doesn't scare you...  :)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: Grav Tank Tactics


>At 10:50 AM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Most common phrase used on first sighting an OGRE?  OH
>>SHI......BOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!
>
>Ha.  OGREs don't frighten me.  I mastered the four-howitzer defense early.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:45:17 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Date sent:      	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:37:30 -0500
From:           	Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

>"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> types:
>>Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
>>superiority to avoid defeat.

>Hence Patton's comment: "Monty's more worried about not losing 
>battles than winning them."

Its not really fair to compare Montgomery and Patton. Its an apples and
oranges situation. Both were excellant commanders, but they were the
products of totally different systems, using completely dissimilar tools.
Montgomery was a meticulous planner and paid attention to minute
detail. But Montgomery was acutely aware of Britians manpower crisis
(out of a population 1/3rd the size Britian produced an airface and navy
as large as the US and an army half the size). He knew that there was
no manpower pool to replace losses. If Montgomery lost a division it was
not comming back. Montgomery could not afford to lose.

Also Montgomery (like all 2nd WW British commanders) had lived
through the 1st WW and had seen nearly 1,000,000 British dead.
Compare this with the US losses of only 50,000. As a result of this
British commanders were a lot more careful than US commanders.
The British looked for an alternative to the direct assault and were far
more miserly with resources. Plus the British military establishment
was based on an "indirect approach" born of centuries of what was
essentially a naval strategy.

Patton on the other hand was a product of a classical Clauswitzian
establishement. The US military believed in "march to the enemies
main force and defeat them in battle". He was backed by lavish reserves
and knew that if he stuffed up totally, it was not the end, another army
could be built. He was in the position of being able to take risks and
could afford bold strokes that might end in disaster.Patton was also
deeply aware of the fragility of his troops morale. He knew that if his
troops were not going forwards their morale would collapse in short order.
He also knew that his troops were relatively "unsophisticated" and were
not really capable of subtle maneuvers. Therefore he adopted simplistic
plans and ignored such "unneccessaries" as flank guards or latteral
maneuver. Of course this was risky, but he could afford those risks.

Actually if it were not for the fact that they were both arrogent buggers
with ego's the size of a small planet; Patton and Montgomery would have
made a good team. Montgomery to break open the line and Patton to
exploit the breakthrough. Of course this was Eisenhower's basic plan at
Normandy, however he did not factor their egos into the equation.

ObTrav. Just how would the various strengths and weakness of the "great
powers" in Traveller (the Imperium, the Zhodani, Solomani Confederation,
Aslan etc) be reflected in their military doctrine?


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:04:47 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> j a c wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> Sorry, a couple of nit picky points from an old OGRE hand.  Ogre was the
> name of the Mk I cybertank first built by the North American Combine in
> 2060.  The name stuck with the cybertanks as being rather appropriate.
> 
> Enemy OGREs are called It, friendly OGREs are called He (very
> respectfully, of course)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> Ah, It and He, now I remember - it's been some years since I've read that
> bit. And "Ogre", as I said, is a nickname, not an acronym.
> 
> Unless we start the TML '99 OGRE acronym contest...<G>
> 
"Oh, God, Run Everyone!"

> Walt Smith

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:17:09 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)

Black ICE wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > Unless we start the TML '99 OGRE acronym contest...<G>
> >
> "Oh, God, Run Everyone!"
> 
Unanimous, so far....

Unless you prefer:  "Oh, Great.  Real Excitement!"

> > Walt Smith
> 
> --
> ------
> |    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> |JOLT|
> |COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
> |    |
> ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:35:01 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

(ARGH... NO NO I wont get into this! NO! I won't! Argh...  )

Ok, so be it. Apropos undies are on...

Andrew, much as I love your other traveller work, here, I must
respectfully disagree. On his good days, Montie was a boy screwing
(literally, alas) ass. 

Patton, I will happily agree, was not a whole hell of a lot better by
any description; so?

If I had to argue for the best general of WWII it would come down to
Guderian or Bradley. Either was so much better than their more famous
companions that I don't know where to begin. (Yep, I'll  also argue that
Ike was the best of _all_ of them. Sure, he had his fallings, but will
you really dare tell me that Noris Aledon wasn't as human as you and I?)

You won't convince me - I won't convince you; shall we drop this bomb
here and now?

William


Date: The, 18 Mar 1999 13:26:08 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

In a message dated 3/17/99 11:24:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< Montgomery  is one of the most maligned commanders of the 2nd WW
 (especially by American commentators). Montgomery was a master of the
 set piece battle (thats why Eisenhower put him in overall command of the
 Normandy battles). Montgomery had a particular eye for minute detail and
 was a brillant planner. Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
 superiority to avoid defeat. >>

ie, he was too cautious, but I'm a biased American...

Ob Trav: Santanocheev Vs. Norris...

Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:49:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: SPAM??????

- -----Original Message-----
From: rwm@tansoft.com <rwm@tansoft.com>
To: accusalz.net@mpgn.com <accusalz.net@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 12:31 AM
Subject: Increase your sales by 1500%!!!


>YOU CAN INCREASE YOUR SALES 1500% 
>  Overnight by Accepting Major Credit Cards! 
>
>  Are you turning away your share of more than 375 
>  million sales? That's how many credit cards are being used 
>  nationwide. Charges in 1997 alone topped $1 Trillion! 
>
>  Regardless of your credit history... 
>  You can accept Visa, Mastercard, American Express and 
>  Discover/Novus, all with the lowest startup cost! 
>
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>
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>
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>  1-877-SWIPE-CC 
>  ID# 25 
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:22:12 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #307

()Spljkahsdfkjhasdkfhg) (Aw... f* ... there goes _that_ keyboard &
monitor. Despite the warning...)

Dude, that's an exquisite portrait; but it isn't Ditzy...

No, that's Peewee Reisfeld and she can make Ditzy look utterly and
completely normal..

(If, perchance, you are unaware of who I refer to; run to your nearst
bookstore and find Robert Heinlein's "Have Spacesuit - Will Travel"
THAT woman makes Ditzy look like the baby she is...)

The master was _always_ right.... ;'p

William



- -----------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:51:28 -0800
> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> Subject: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
> 
> OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
> working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the quality
> is better as well.
> 
> Best,
> Jesse
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
> 
> ------------------------------
> 


- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:22:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam

In literature, it is wise to ALWAYS listen to a Cassandra, as they will
reveal what is to happen in the future.  Certainly, some authors probably
don't know this, but well-read ones will.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: Portrait of Ditzie Spofulam


>At 07:33 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>If anyone has those in archives or can point me at a URL, I'd appreciate
it.
>>Hey Todd, how about a Traveller game at BayCon that involves Ditzie?  :D
>
>Only if I can play Cassandra Gridlore, head of GT's legal department.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:10:32 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

> Please say the Aurora Class Clipper is the Gazelle with the Scout grafted to
> the front....No offense, but I can't stand that ship (if that's the one).

No, the Auroras are the one pictured on the front of Brilliant Lances.  They
have modules all along the sides.  Look kinda like the ships in the movie
Starship Troopers.  The one u're talking bout is the Coventry (i think) class
ship that was put together by the Covenant of Sufren.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:27:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: H&K G11

>
>>>Bullets going through a ninety degree turn in two axes is simple?
>>
>>Two axes?  Try one.
>
>Are we talking about the P90 still?

No, look at the subject.  "H&K G-11"

> The one where the ammo sits sideways
>in a magazine over the barrel?
>
>>>Insensitive munitions are no big deal.
>>
>>They are if rumors abound that the ammo won't make it in the field.  Also,
>>the rounds have no brass to protect their propellant, so this SOLID
>>PROPELLANT is what can survive the shock.  Ever played with Model Rockets?
>>Try dropping a D-size engine (with a cardboard somewhat protective tubing)
>>from an aircraft and see how the solid propellant IN it fares!
>
>There's a difference between military grade propellants (that are
>designed not to go off, even when shot) and My First Rocket.

And if the difference is that military grade solid propellants can survive
the shock of a drop from an aircraft while model rocket engine solid
propellants protected by a tube of cardboard CANNOT, then THAT explains why
"insensitive munitions ARE a big deal, especially when people are saying
that Dynamit Nobel's ammo won't make it in the field.  Follow the thread,
please.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:31:39 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Naval funny]

Scarey. This sounds just like every bush rotation I was on in the US Army...

Scariest part is that Squids and I have more in common than I (or they)
care to think about ...

William
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:31:33 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

> If you can, have a play on an Atari Jaguar, with the game
> 'Hoverstrike'.  It looks dated now, and isn't the best,
> but gives you an idea of the challenge of piloting a 
> hovertank. If there are two of you, one can be the gunner,
> the other the pilot!

On that note... Has anyone ever tried GunMetal?  (for the PC)
It looks like Quake2 with grav tanks.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:24:59 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Increase your sales by 1500%!!!

At 08:10 AM 3/18/99 , you wrote:
>PDSB (Point Defense Spam Batteries) on line and tracking sir.  (Sounds
>like another SayBOOM development, eh?)
>
>JimC
>
>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:35:55 -0800 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
>writes:
>>SHIT!!!!  We've been SPAMMED!!!  Ditzie, grab your cannon!!  Everyone
>>else,
>>DUCK!!!
>>
>>Jesse
>>snip total spam<

Ok no more mister nice guy.!!!
Igor!, Unlease the US Lawyers with NO morals, scruples, and/or milk of 
human kindness!!

After they have had their way with them, strap them in for a "Gilligan's 
Island", "Pettycoat Junction", and "CSPAN" marathon.

Remember the cookies with no milk, too.

After the prep work let get serious.

Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:30:14 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Patton

At 10:20 AM 3/18/99 , you wrote:
>Patton may have been nuts, but he fought and he knew his onions.
>
>This was the guy who as a junior officer took on most of the establishment
>to get a decent cavalry sword, terrorised Mexican bandits by actually
>fighting them, and generally got the job done, to hell with the
>consequences. When you're that good, I suppose you get arrogant, and results
>get you forgiven for being an arrogant sod, or even disobeying orders (Ask
>Rommel).
>
>Patton knew how to fight, and he was willing to fight. Friction with others
>was a problem, but he knew what he was about. That's how he ended up in
>charge... you need these men in war.
>
>MJD

Agreed Patton was not made for peace but only for war, but the military 
needs persons like him even in peace time.

Now for the US Marine members of the list, lets us not forget General 
Patton's first cousin, General "Chesty" Puller. Can we have an Urahh for that.


Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:41:11 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Naval funny]

At 05:02 PM 3/18/99 , you wrote:
>Got this off of alt.folklore.military.
>
>Could be very close to Travelling
>Evyn...
<snip a long list>
Boy that brings back some almost forgotten memories/nightmares.<G>
I have at least a 85% match for the things on that list.



Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:50:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-shirt design in progress..

> I'm considering phrases like:
>
>    IISS 114th Exploration Branch
>        Efate Grav-Ball Team      (above artwork)
>
I want something that at least gives the viewer a clue as to what they are
seeing, like this one, above.  Then, with the straightest face I can muster,
I can tell them how the Air Force sends up a big bird to do zero G descents
complete with an indoor Grav-ball court and how I'm one of the highest-paid
players (In zero G, you don't have to be buff.) in the world.  Then I'll see
how long I can pull that off.  I'll say, you've heard of Generation X games?
This is a Generation Z game (for the axis?).  I'll end with, "Look for us at
the next olympics".

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:51:24 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

LOVE it!!!!
Jesse





>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> 
>
>> PMPP?.......Can't say as I remember seeing anything about that
>> anywhere......
>
>Pelvic Mounted Plasma Pistol...a particularly twisted design that
>SAYBOOM introduced just after a TML discussion of From Dusk Till Dawn
>movie with Quentin Tarantino and George Clooney. One of the bad guys
>wears a pistol that is strapped to his crotch in a pop-up holster. 
>
>(This weapon also makes an brief appearance in Desperado, and is
>allegedly one of the scarier things in the guitar case in El Mariachi)
>
>Scary thing is...the PMPP being a plasma weapon, has a recoil like the
>kick of a mule.
>
>-- 
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:52:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)

You mean like, "Clif card.  Most TMLers pissed off to date"?

- --Clif

P.S.:  I got some catchin' up to do!  ; )


>I just had a wild idea with all the talk of portraits and carboard heroes
>and such.
>Has anyone thought of TML personality trading cards?
>
>Hav a portrait with various stats on the bottom.  Most ships built in a
>single year, number of units sold to Merc groups, highest destructive
>yield with a man portible weapon, etc...
>
>
>I can see it now, kids in the Imperium trading these cards...
>
>Kid #1 "You got a Ditzie Spofulam Rookie Card?"
>
>Kid #2 "Yeah, sweet aint it?"
>
>Kid #1 "I'll trade you an Arameth Gridlore and 2 Commander X's for it!"
>
>Kid #2 "No way dude, this sucker is priceless!"
>
>\\  // Commander X
> \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
>T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
> //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
>//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:55:02 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

Now use a morphing program to do an animated age projection...
Befooorrrrrreee...afteerrrrrrrrrrrr.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 4:59 PM
Subject: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie


>OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
>working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the quality
>is better as well.
>
>Best,
>Jesse
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:06:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Yeah, that's true.  Red-heads CAN be pretty bitter women.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?


>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:17:49 -0500, "Joseph Kimball"
><HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:
>
>>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with
some
>>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>>from the web if you want me to!
>
>>What?  Not a blonde?  I definitely think of Ditzie as a blonde.  [Now
>>don't get me wrong, I like blonds - hey, I'm MARRIED to a blonde!]
>
>Naah, Blondes don't usually have that sadistic streak that Ditzie
>has.  Ditzie is definitely a redhead.  I mean, bright, coppery
>RED-head.  Don't let her stand in the sun; you'll be blinded.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:10:36 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>The cost to cut through the armor belt to access engineering would have
been
>prohibitive - not to mention that the skill set needed to weld that armor
>has been lost.  From what I understood, anything less than a full
conversion
>to BBN was not practical.

The kinds of modifications that I'm talking about do not require cutting
through the armor belt. Pneumatic boiler control systems are replaced with
computer controls. Manual valve wheels are replaced with motor operated
valve actuators.  Temperature sensor wells are welded into piping. Gauges
are replaced by either Linear Variable Differential Transmitters or
capacitive effect pressure sensors.
At the present time the U.S. Navy has installed a computer monitoring system
called ICAS (I forget what ICAS stands for) on several of it's ships.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:13:11 -0600
From: "Van Tate" <v2@softhome.net>
Subject: RE: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Ack! I was too late and I did not get to see it. Where is the rendition
again?

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Charles Prevatte
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 8:23 AM
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?


At 02:50 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with
some

Not bad, but I think you got the smile wrong.  I think she needs a more
cute/oops/sorry I was just trying it out nervious smile or a I'm to cute to

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #309
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 310



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Diplo armor - what is it?
Colonization
Re: On IISS Patches...
Baby Ditzie
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Renegade LEGION  Centurion
Re: Diplo armor - what is it?
Re: Ditzie for Empress!
Re: BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Baby Ditzie
Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)
Re: On IISS Patches

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:19:30 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

At 05:23 PM 18/03/99 -0600, you wrote:

>
>JACKPOT!!!!
>
>Your new illo is *exactly* as I pictured Ditzie.
>
>My hat is off to you (for the 8th time).
>
>

        What gets me is the hair-clip...  <snicker>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:27:13 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Both the teenage (future) Ditzie and the current (grade school) Ditzie are
at my website.  Keyboard and monitor warning!!  You shouldn't be eating or
drinking anything when you visit the site :)

Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm





>Ack! I was too late and I did not get to see it. Where is the rendition
>again?
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:28:41 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

I couldn't help it.  Elmyra on Tiny Toons always cracked me up :)

Jesse


>        What gets me is the hair-clip...  <snicker>
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
> ICQ # 31172292
> Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
> Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:24:02 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Diplo armor - what is it?

I don't own, nor can I find, any T4 stuff. However, I've heard about
this Diplo armor. Could some kind soul take a moment and let me know
just what that is?
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:54:27 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Colonization

        Hiya, folks!
        IMTU, the UN has opened the stars to individual exploration and
colonization, largely on the concept that greedy private sector is more
efficient than the beuacratized UN Deep Space Rangers (Scouts, MTU).  So,
basically, you build a ship, get a charter and GO!
        So here is my question....  what would the charter *say*?  In my FTF
game, the players are raising enough cash to build an explorer...  they want
to go find some garden world and stake a claim on it.  I am somewhat stumped
as to what rational limits to put on thier activities and rewards there-from.
        I presume that finding a planet isn't enough.  Doing a full
geographic analysis is a minimum;  where are the fault lines and "ring of
fire" that we *don't* want to build the Colony on.  A resource survey would
probably be required, too.  Maybe even having a Nav becon set up and a bare
piece of bedrock (Class E) to land on.
        So, after the explorers jump through hoops, what's the payback?
1/100 of a percent of the GSP (Gross Stellar Product) of the system every
year?  A BCr per fully surveyed world?  A round of applause and the primary
named after them?

        I am looking for suggestions and "how I did it"'s from YTU....
neither Book 6 or Book 7 have any guidelines at all.

        Thanks in advance!

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:15:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Clif wrote:

> On the other hand, I just got this ad...

There is no cost savings sufficient to justify supporting SPAM.

Brannon
http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:18:16 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Baby Ditzie

Ditzee aka Becca Foy in Disguise:

I'm afraid I'm going to have to sue some  people on this list for image
copyright infingement. Jesse's younger Ditzie is the splitting image of
my 8 year old daughter, Rebecca. She can whip my ass in Doom, Nam,
Quake, and Duke Nukem. She first played Doom when she was four.
Currently she is putting X-Wing Gold through its paces (full shields
double front and full thrust) and is mastering Rebel Assault I. She is a
junior jedi master with her life-like Darth Vader Lightsabre when
sparring with me and I had two years of Kendo in college. No prisoners!
In my other life I reenact a  ACW Berdan's Sharpshooter (2nd Reg. Co.
C), and Becca pesters me constantly about when can she shoot my .54
caliber Sharp's Rifle (It kicks like a .308). If I could put it up
somewhere I'd show y'all the photo of my leering daughter cradling "Ma
Belle", (the name for my gun, she reaches out and touches someone).
She's helped me fire my .50 caliber Hawken with a 20 grain load (about
as much force as a percussion cap). The 'face' she gets when she's
"killin' the dudes" on the PC is extremely frightening and downright
menacing. She wants to either be a veterinarian/astronaut (NASA has 'em)
or A-10 pilot (she wrecks the hog in A-10 Cuba, give her a few weeks!!!)
when she grows up. Except for the lip, Becca is Ditzee Spofulam. Me on
the other hand, I'm St. Francis of Assisi compared to that Clan
Sinistre!

MUSASHI

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:18:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> Hey Kenji, does Jesse know bout the PMPP?  ;-)

I don't think so -- the Sayat website's been down for a while now and it
hasn't been a big, bulging, topic on the list really.

Work started on a mockup of a PMPP last summer, but I gave it up -- I just
don't have the knack or patience for model-building.  The earlier recoil
testing was as far as I got, which was at least _practical_, damn it.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:22:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Pelvic Mounted Plasma Pistol...a particularly twisted design that
> SAYBOOM introduced just after a TML discussion of From Dusk Till Dawn
> movie with Quentin Tarantino and George Clooney. One of the bad guys
> wears a pistol that is strapped to his crotch in a pop-up holster. 
> 
> (This weapon also makes an brief appearance in Desperado, and is
> allegedly one of the scarier things in the guitar case in El Mariachi)

I don't remember that being the inspiration for it, actually, but it's all
a blur at this point.  Having made a point of avoiding that movie, I can
lay all blame for my knowledge of it upon the TML with a clear conscience.

> Scary thing is...the PMPP being a plasma weapon, has a recoil like the
> kick of a mule.

I think 6, on the TNE scale.  But as my simulated recoil experiments
demonstrated (duct tape + plexiglass + foam rubber + dildo harness +
boxer), pelvic mounts are much better firing platforms than arm/shoulder
locations.  At least for ~50% of the current human population.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:27:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

Why isn't she on the Grav Pogo Stick?????????

Kenji

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
> working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the quality
> is better as well.
> 
> Best,
> Jesse
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:39:42 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Renegade LEGION  Centurion

I have actually used the little plastic Centurion tanks in an actual
(100's) of Centurion games and I feel like I'm the only one in the world
who has Gm'd Renegade Legion RPG: Legionaire. If you play with all the
supplements for Centurion you have a fun game: very quick, very lethal,
and very nervewracking. W/Out Thor Satellites it is a very LETHAL
battlefield. Without mines, arty, orty, and infantry it is very LETHAL.
But that is what the universe of RL is all about: Combat, Combat, Combat
with the slightest premise of backstory.INTECEPTOR was a cute PC game,
it came out about the same time as  Wing Commander II.  RL is still
going on strong with an E-Zine, mailing list, and a few web pages here
and there. E-mail me direct and I'll send some to ya!  BTW, does anyone
on the TML play/played Levithian/Battlespace? None of the Battletech
feinds I know have even cracked open their Battlespace box if they ever
bought one in the first place. Ever see what a 200 megawatt laser does
to a Draconis Dropship? Its sorta like watching a popcorn kernel explode
in your microwave but without  the tasty bits lying (floating) around
afterwards. BFG :-))

DEATH TO TH' F**KING TOGGIE SCUM!

COMMONWEALTH FOREVER! THE LEGION NEVER SURRENDERS!

MUSASHI
Traveller '77
2300AD '87
RL from the begining!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:38:35 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Diplo armor - what is it?

At 08:24 PM 3/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't own, nor can I find, any T4 stuff. However, I've heard about
>this Diplo armor. Could some kind soul take a moment and let me know
>just what that is?

According to T4 central supply catalog, it is a form-fitting flexible armor
that can be worn under formal or light clothing.  It masses 1kg, provides a
flexible armor rating of 3, and imposes a -1 DM on End-based rolls, since
it has no air-circulation and is thus hot and uncomfortable.  It costs 500Cr.

A heavier version is available, which has reflective plates attached. It
gives armor 5 (flexible) vs. most stuff, 8 vs. lasers.  It gives -1 DM to
End- and Dex-based rolls.  It masses 2kg, and costs 1000Cr.

Both versions are TTL-11



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:47:54 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Empress!

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote

> How about Ditzie for Empress?  She must have quite a cult following 
> amongst the Merc community.  Surely it couldn't be too difficult, with 
> a combined effort to put her on the throne. 

I think that the Empress Wave from TNE must be Ditzies attempt to be
Empress.  If you look at the TNE rulebook front cover middle left
illustration you will see the Milieu 1100 Ditzie.  1100 years later &
she only looks 20 or 30 years older.  That is some serious use of
anagathics. [OTOH the Empress Wave is Psionic so perhaps Ditzie learned
Awareness-15 & developed the same immortality power that Grandfather is
descibed as having in Secret of the Ancients.  Somehow I find the idea
of a psionic Ditzie makes me somewhat nervous.]

I think that we have finally discovered the "true" answer to one of
TNE's mysteries.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:51:05 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Evyn MacDude wrote:

> > Weekend of May 28th-31st.  Gonna' be there?
> > Jesse
> 
>  Thinking about it. Yes if the Wife leaves me, Maybe if she's
> still here. How's that for the grimest line on the list?

My divorce from my gaming-hating ex was final on Friday, and I am happily
engaged to my wonderful girlfriend who has the ability to see what I enjoy
and doesn't try to take it away from me :)

And I got full custody of my son to boot.  :) :) :)

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:51:12 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

At 10:11 PM 3/18/99 -0500, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>>"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> types:
>>>Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
>>>superiority to avoid defeat.
>
>>Hence Patton's comment: "Monty's more worried about not losing 
>>battles than winning them."
>
>Its not really fair to compare Montgomery and Patton. Its an apples and
>oranges situation. Both were excellant commanders, but they were the
>products of totally different systems, using completely dissimilar tools.

   Both were arrogant, egotisical, brilliant, and extremely charismatic.
Both used these traits to their advantage for the most part...

>Montgomery was a meticulous planner and paid attention to minute
>detail. But Montgomery was acutely aware of Britians manpower crisis
>(out of a population 1/3rd the size Britian produced an airface and navy
>as large as the US and an army half the size). He knew that there was
>no manpower pool to replace losses. If Montgomery lost a division it was
>not comming back. Montgomery could not afford to lose.

   Perhaps, but do you care to explain Operation Market Garden?  Many lives
in the British First Airborne Division (among many others) were sacrificed
in a scheme that simply relied too much on timing and luck.  Had it even
succeeded, it would not have been the knockout blow that Monty always
thought it would have been.

>Also Montgomery (like all 2nd WW British commanders) had lived
>through the 1st WW and had seen nearly 1,000,000 British dead.
>Compare this with the US losses of only 50,000. As a result of this
>British commanders were a lot more careful than US commanders.

   Caution was a British military command trait prior to WW I.  Let the
situation develop in front of you, then picking the precise moment and
place of enemy weakness to strike.

>The British looked for an alternative to the direct assault and were far
>more miserly with resources. Plus the British military establishment
>was based on an "indirect approach" born of centuries of what was
>essentially a naval strategy.

   Montgomery took large amounts of resources to implement Market Garden,
resources that were taken away from Patton and forced him to stop his
offensive operations elsewhere along the front around Nancy.

   Eisenhower spent much of campaign weighing competing demands for
resources from both Patton and Montgomery as each attempted to become the
one to get to Germany first.

   IMHO, Montgomery in summary: a product of British military training, the
hero of El Alamein, a more than competant commander and superior organizer
who earned his field marshal rank but who at times allowed his ego to rule
him too much.

>Patton on the other hand was a product of a classical Clauswitzian
>establishement. The US military believed in "march to the enemies
>main force and defeat them in battle".

   Patton is the product of a military establishment that believed in using
the tactics that work.  While Clausewitz is definately an influence, one
should first look to Sherman and Grant and the American Civil War before
going back to Clausewitz.  Both Sherman and Grant were students of
Clausewitz, but implemented his philosophies in different ways.

>He was backed by lavish reserves and knew that if he stuffed up totally, 
>it was not the end, another army could be built. He was in the position 
>of being able to take risks and could afford bold strokes that might end in 
>disaster.

   Patton did not waste resources or men.  Indeed, when you compare the
quality of the tanks and equipment the Germans were using in relation to
that being produced for the U.S. Army, he simply had no choice but to order
his men into an extremely aggressive strategy of engaging the enemy
frequently and often, pressing and overwhelming the enemy when necessary.
Men die in such circumstances, but in fewer quantities than if a long
campaign of atrition had been carried out.

>Patton was also deeply aware of the fragility of his troops morale. He 
>knew that if his troops were not going forwards their morale would collapse 
>in short order.

   This explains the stand of the 101st Airborne at Bastogne...I could go
on but why...

   A rather simplistic opinion of the Third Army and U.S. Army in general.

>He also knew that his troops were relatively "unsophisticated" and were
>not really capable of subtle maneuvers.

   At the height of the Battle of the Bulge, Patton turned his army north
from their positions in the vicinity of Nancy and thrust into the southern
flank of the German offensive, relieving Bastogne and helping to bring the
situation under control.  It was a manuever with few prescendents in
military history.

   BTW, subtle manuevers in the vicinity of a Pzkw V "Panther" (or worse
yet a Pzkw VIb "King Tiger") while driving a Sherman tank are a sure way to
end up dead...

>Therefore he adopted simplistic plans and ignored such "unneccessaries" 
>as flank guards or latteral maneuver. Of course this was risky, but he 
>could afford those risks.

   When you are implementing a tactic of pressing the enemy in the manner
that Patton did, forward thrust prevents the enemy from reorganizing,
resupplying, or having the time to do things like staging flank attacks.
This is one of the reasons that Patton was always railing for more
supplies, particularly gasoline--his tactics required a steady stream of it
in order to work.

   IMHO, Patton in summary: Understood the German Army proably better than
most German generals.  Understood his men and their capabilities better
than anyone but Omar Bradley.  Well thought of, would have been better
thought of were it not for his massive ego and his cannon mouth--then again
he might not have been the general he was without them.

>Actually if it were not for the fact that they were both arrogent buggers
>with ego's the size of a small planet; Patton and Montgomery would have
>made a good team. Montgomery to break open the line and Patton to
>exploit the breakthrough. Of course this was Eisenhower's basic plan at
>Normandy, however he did not factor their egos into the equation.

   That Eisenhower was able to utilize both men to their maximum potential
is a tribute to his own leadership capabilties.

   The basic plan at Normandy was to use the threat of Patton performing a
flanking manuever crossing at Calais to keep the Germans from committing
all their reserves to stopping the real invasion.  The Allies went to great
lengths to make it look like Patton has a sizeable force ready to cross at
Calais, when it reality it was nothing more than a bunch of guys with
radios pretending to be an army.  The British under Montgomery held the
eastern flank of the Normandy invasion force, and though they did not
achieve all their objectives, they nevertheless locked up considerable
German forces which allowed the Americans to eventually execute a breakout
that forced the Germans to retreat rapidly eastward.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:57:07 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Baby Ditzie

Careful Miyamoto, the CIA may now keep an eye on her.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
To: Traveller TML <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:24 PM
Subject: Baby Ditzie


>Ditzee aka Becca Foy in Disguise:
>
>I'm afraid I'm going to have to sue some  people on this list for image
>copyright infingement. Jesse's younger Ditzie is the splitting image of
>my 8 year old daughter, Rebecca. She can whip my ass in Doom, Nam,
>Quake, and Duke Nukem. She first played Doom when she was four.
>Currently she is putting X-Wing Gold through its paces (full shields
>double front and full thrust) and is mastering Rebel Assault I. She is a
>junior jedi master with her life-like Darth Vader Lightsabre when
>sparring with me and I had two years of Kendo in college. No prisoners!
>In my other life I reenact a  ACW Berdan's Sharpshooter (2nd Reg. Co.
>C), and Becca pesters me constantly about when can she shoot my .54
>caliber Sharp's Rifle (It kicks like a .308). If I could put it up
>somewhere I'd show y'all the photo of my leering daughter cradling "Ma
>Belle", (the name for my gun, she reaches out and touches someone).
>She's helped me fire my .50 caliber Hawken with a 20 grain load (about
>as much force as a percussion cap). The 'face' she gets when she's
>"killin' the dudes" on the PC is extremely frightening and downright
>menacing. She wants to either be a veterinarian/astronaut (NASA has 'em)
>or A-10 pilot (she wrecks the hog in A-10 Cuba, give her a few weeks!!!)
>when she grows up. Except for the lip, Becca is Ditzee Spofulam. Me on
>the other hand, I'm St. Francis of Assisi compared to that Clan
>Sinistre!
>
>MUSASHI
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:59:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."













http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:14:05 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

> Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...
> 
> Clif wrote:
> > 
> <<snip discussion of IISS patches>>
> > >>
> > What's the story behind the Pony Express-Like patch with the 8 or 4 legged
> > beast? (depending on how you look at it)  Where does this beast come from?
[deletion]
> That, sir, is a "poni."  The poni is a riding beast found on certain
> Imperial worlds.  When the Communications Branch was devising a
[deletion] 
> (The above is from my memories of the "Scouts and Assassins" book, from
> [IIRC] Paranoia Press.  This book is also the source of the Scout

Here's the straight dope:

"The xboat service emblem (above) was taken from a history of Terra by
Professor Dinimbue of the University of Sylea.  The professor found
records of an organization called the Pony Express, but her knowledge of
old anglic was not complete enough to equate the word pony with the
Terran horse.  The professor translated the word as poni, a beast of
burden used on several worlds of the Sylean Federation.  When the xboat
service was organized, the emblem was designed, even though by then the
professor's mistake had been discovered."

L. Wiseman and M. Miller, "The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service", 6
Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society 11, 12.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 23:39:49 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

On 03/18/99 at 01:26 PM,  Sethkimmel@aol.com said:

><< Montgomery  is one of the most maligned commanders of the 2nd WW
>(especially by American commentators). Montgomery was a master of
>the set piece battle (thats why Eisenhower put him in overall command of
>the Normandy battles). Montgomery had a particular eye for minute detail
>and was a brillant planner. Montgomery won by ensuring that he had
>sufficent superiority to avoid defeat. >>

>ie, he was too cautious, but I'm a biased American...

Montgomery was a very good defensive strategist.  He had a solid
staff and he listened to them.  However, like many defensive
oriented generals he wasn't given to bold offensive strokes,
preferring slow methodical advances.  Montgomery gave the
appearance, to most Americans anyway, of being a conceited snob, but
he was undeniably an excellent political general.

Patton was a very good offensive tactician.  He probably understood
the concepts of the armored offensive better than any Allied
general.  However, he wasn't patient enough to run defensive actions
and slow methodical actions chaffed him so much he would routinely
blow up, saying and doing half-crazy things.  Patton was an unstable,
unpolitic, loose cannon, and a real SOB...and yes, a conceited
megalomaniac, who would have probably blown his brain's out if he
had survived the war and couldn't draw the US into another one.

I suspect, Ike putting Montgomery in overall command of the Normandy
offensive was mostly a political move.  Having a "Brit" in the
forefront of the invasion was considered a public relations coup in
the UK, among the non-US allies, and in occupied Europe.  Having a
defensive specialist in charge of securing the expanded beachhead
against the expected German couter-offensive wasn't a bad idea.  As
it turned out, I'm sure there were better choices from a purely
military point of view, but no one knew that before the invasion
began.  I don't think George Patton would have been the right choice
either.

>Ob Trav: Santanocheev Vs. Norris...

You know Santanocheev wasn't supposed to be a *bad* Admiral.  He was
just the wrong man at the wrong time fighting the wrong war..

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 23:44:41 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)

On 03/18/99 at 01:34 PM,  "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> said:

>SSSSSPPLLLLLLORRRRRRRRRKKKK   HACK COUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>A Whopper sprayed on your keyboard is not a pretty thing!!!  :)

>That is absolutely too classic dude!!!

You guys have *got* to learn to stop doing that!  

I keep my glass/cup of whatever at arms length and never have a
mouthful of *anything* when I call up a new TML post.  Eating and
drinking are between posts activities.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:49:51 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> >> ( why does a Led Zeppelin or Harley Davidson t-shirt, or that black one
> with
 
> VeedBack  (from "Roadshow" by John Ford")

Yes!  I want a VeedBack tour tshirt!  Or maybe VeedBack tour security.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #310
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 311



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules
Re: Baby Ditzie
Burrito Files NPC Format; Campaign Blues; GURPS CharGen
Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Generals and stuff
Re: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)
Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Armour/mech tactics
Re: FS Gauss Gun vs Trepida

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:51:25 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

>> Does some brave soul want to do the GURPS: Traveller bar encounter 
>> rules for T:TSE?

>GURPS already has rules for this in GURPS Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
>(based on the Spider Robinson books of the same name).  Callahans would
>make a good crossover for G:Trav.

>Obviously Harmonian = Ancient

> No, no.. Harmonians are from the Fourth Imperium!

If you mean the government that the shattered remnants of the Regency
and the Zhodani Consulate will cobble together after the Empress Wave
perhaps they are.

If by the Fourth Imperium you mean the racist Vilani terrorist group
plotting to overthrow the Imperium in early DGP product then no.

> So, should I just write up the G:T entry as "buy GURPS Callahan's 
> Crosstime Saloon"?

Well G: Callahans is OP & the others are up on your site so logically
G:Trav should be too.  I would post a note on the site similar to those
SJG prints on the backs of the GURPS books saying something like G:Trav
Bar Encounter rules require Gurps 3rd ed Revised, Gurps Traveller, &
either Gurps Callahans of Gurps Goblins (both of which have the complete
drinking rules & drinking related advantages & disadvantages, Goblins is
in print)

GURPS Traveller
Random Alcohol Establishment Encounter House Table 

Roll on the Reaction Table (pg 204-5) with the following modifiers:
All normal applicable Social modifiers

1)	Critical Success at a Carousing Roll +4
	Success at a Carousing Roll +2
	Failure at a Carousing Roll -1
	Critical Failure at a Carousing Roll -4 and Roll on the 		Potential
Combat section of the reaction table OR roll on the 	Fright Check Table
using the ammount the roll failed by as a 	modifier OR pull out your old
Travellers Digests & consult the 	Scout Brew Tables

2)	Bar Social Status Modifiers

Apply the average social status of the bars other patrons (including the
other PC's if they are more than 1/3 of the people in hte bar) as a
bonus of penalty to the charecters Carousing skill [Example - The Hub
Bar is a lowlife dive that serves to alchoholic street people with an
average socail status of -2, all Reaction rolls in The Hub are at -2,
Darwins Theory is an upscale bar that caters to yuppies & lawyers with
an averge Social status of +1, all reaction Rolls in Darwins Theory are
at +1  Note that some rowdy bars, especially those in startowns should
have other modifiers.  Example - Chilkoot Charlies is a middle class
bar, most of whose patrons are Soc 0 but it is big and loud and rowdy so
all reaction rolls at Koot's are subject to a -1penalty]

Apply the difference between the charecters social status and that of
the bars other patrons as a negative modifier to the charecters
Reaction. [Example Baron Trier dehah Tarlineal is Soc 3.  If he enters
the Hub Bar he will have a -5 to his Reaction Roll in addition to the -2
that anyone in the Hub Bar would suffer.  He will still get the +3 from
his social status as a bonus to the roll but will suffer a -5 penalty
because that staus is so different from that of the other patrons]

If charecters are simply trying to have a quiet time all positive
modifiers from Appearance become Negative modifiers as the charecter is
hassled by unwanted pickups.

4)	This Reaction Roll represent the charecters first hour or two 
of Bar Activity, roll again - making sure to apply all applicable 
drunkeness modifiers.

5) 	At the referees discression other skills may be used to modify the
Reaction Roll: Area Knowledge, Bard, Savoir Faire, & Sex Appeal are
often appropriate

For purposes of Reputation Bonus most Bars regular Clientele count as
small groups. [Example at Norms favorite bar "everyone knows his name
and they are always glad he came."  Norm has a +4 Reaction from a small
group of people, which costs (20/3 round down) 6 points

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:57:04 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Baby Ditzie

A picture like that I've gotta' see.  I'd be happy to post it on my site :)
Jesse


>If I could put it up
>somewhere I'd show y'all the photo of my leering daughter cradling "Ma
>Belle", (the name for my gun, she reaches out and touches someone).
>She's helped me fire my .50 caliber Hawken with a 20 grain load (about
>as much force as a percussion cap). The 'face' she gets when she's
>"killin' the dudes" on the PC is extremely frightening and downright
>menacing. She wants to either be a veterinarian/astronaut (NASA has 'em)
>or A-10 pilot (she wrecks the hog in A-10 Cuba, give her a few weeks!!!)
>when she grows up. Except for the lip, Becca is Ditzee Spofulam. Me on
>the other hand, I'm St. Francis of Assisi compared to that Clan
>Sinistre!
>
>MUSASHI
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:08:43 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Burrito Files NPC Format; Campaign Blues; GURPS CharGen

1. Burrito Files NPC Format

After logging off last night I had an idea for the format
for an NPC entry:


line 1: NPC title + Name + age.  Later, add the date + location where the PCs
meet this NPC.
line 2: appearance (what's he/she look like?)
line 3: Played By: <celebrity name> -- this helps referee's act out the NPC

Personal facts, one per line, e.g.
Likes to gamble.
Carries a weasel-powered gun wherever he goes.

List of major posessions, e.g.
Owns _The Shrieking Eel Bar and Grill_, a ramshackle dive on the
outskirts of startown.  He doesn't want it anymore because protection
fees are skyrocketing, but he also can't dig himself out of debt.  Most
likely he will just disappear on the next ship bound to leave the system.

Interaction log.  This section is blank at first -- it's a log summarizing the
major points of interaction with this NPC, by the PCs as well as other
NPCs.


"Full" Example

Pilot Douglas McFee, age 40
Scraggly red hair, freckled, youthful-looking.  Irish brogue.
Played by: Any Irish stereotype

Likes home-brewed alcohol.
Has a good ear for finding cargo shipments.
Knows how to pilot a ship's boat.

Owns _The Shrieking Eel Bar and Grill_, a ramshackle dive on the
outskirts of startown.  He doesn't want it anymore because protection
fees are skyrocketing, but he also can't dig himself out of debt.  Most
likely he will just disappear on the next ship bound to leave the system.

Interaction Log:
<not yet met>



2. Campaign Blues

Perhaps I'm overtired today, but tonight's meeting was depressing.
I decided we should try GURPS rules, and the night was spent
tinkering with GURPS character generation software.  We created
charactes immensely slowly -- we should have used the templates
in the GURPS Traveller book -- and the whole major point of
generating characters (to conduct interviews, on the assumption that
only half of the interviewees would be hired) we didn't have the time
or patience for.  As a result, character development was stunted,
no interviewing took place at all, and half the group was bored at
any one time.

To make matters worse, one of us isn't into role-playing at all;
rather, he just wants something to shoot.  He's not a munchkin
really; he just doesn't care at all for PC personality.  He is a
wet blanket in my opinion.  My campaigns are boring enough
as it is -- whenever I get my nerve up to run some combat I
either plan it badly or else they somehow circumvent it.  I want
to see character development and wheels within wheels.

I guess I'm just frustrated because I don't know how to make this
campaign *work*, no matter how much I do, try, and read.

3. GURPS CharGen

...is not Traveller.  I can't say anything bad about it, because I
think it is well thought out and does what it sets out to do.  But
it is not Traveller, and for that reason I don't like it.  I suspect
GURPS combat is good -- Dave Smart likes it, so I believe him --
but the characters look yucky; they remind me of D&D, and I
don't prefer D&D.  This is my personal preference.  When T5
comes out, I will be there to buy it.

Marc, take as much time as you need, but no longer.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:04:34 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

ROFL!!  I HAVE seen the Grav Pogo Stick on the web somewhere (Doug's?) and
loved it.  However, this IS Ditzie we're talking about after all, so large
scale weapons............er, "recreational devices" are definately called
for :)

Jesse


>Why isn't she on the Grav Pogo Stick?????????
>
>Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:12:26 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Generals and stuff

Sinbad Sam types:
>Now for the US Marine members of the list, lets us not forget General 
>Patton's first cousin, General "Chesty" Puller. Can we have an Urahh for that.

Double Urahh!

One of his daughters used to babysit me and my brother when we were wee-tykes 
in Woodbridge, VA.

My dad was doing his tour of lovely southeast Asia at the time.  My mother had 
no clue as to who this person was until he got back.




- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be 
infringed.  -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:19:40 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: TML trading Cards (Ditzie Portraits, etc...)

Sometimes I'm a bit thick.  After the Whopper incedent, I think I've learned
my lesson finally :)

Jesse


>You guys have *got* to learn to stop doing that!
>
>I keep my glass/cup of whatever at arms length and never have a
>mouthful of *anything* when I call up a new TML post.  Eating and
>drinking are between posts activities.  ;->
>
>Eris
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:57:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Well, the (partially complete) first draft of the grav-ball t-shirt
design is ready for view and review.  You'll find it at the URL:

  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/gravball

The more feedback I get, the better I can make it! :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:07:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Armour/mech tactics

>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
...
>   When you are implementing a tactic of pressing the enemy in the manner
>that Patton did, forward thrust prevents the enemy from reorganizing,
>resupplying, or having the time to do things like staging flank attacks.

  In a more general sense (i.e., not just WW II in the west) the above is
only true if flank security is available on demand - as late as mid-`44 the
Soviets were discovering that the (rare) effective panzer counter-attack
was a very efficient way for the Germans to neutralize spearhead armour
regiments. The advances in the west would have been much slower if the
defenders ability to resist weren't already effectively eliminated. AFAIK
that also applied to Fantasian motor rifles...

  ObTrav - dunno; never played Invasion: Earth  :(

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:05:07 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: FS Gauss Gun vs Trepida

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: FS FwdObsvr Ops (was Re: Grav tank tactics)
>
>I remember the one after had a (presumably FFS2) 'pen factor' (is this the
>same as TNE pen value?) that was only 2 hundred something.  That wouldn't
>penetrate a Trepida.  
>

The FS Gauss Gun is built to TL 9 specs.

As far as I remember, the Trepida was TL 15.

Also, look at the top armour of the Trepida. I suspect that a hit would do
some harm to it.

Me, I reckon thats pretty good when spotting the opposition six tech levels.

Ian Whitchurch



>As you describe it, it would indeed be a nightmare, but somehow I didn't get
>that from the Ditzie and FS described weapons...  My only question would
be on
>the ability to really hide the platform from detection (EMS especially).  If
>it's mobile, it should be visible.  If it's fortified/hidden, if it's found,
>it's dead.  Arty, in today's TL-8 world anyways, relies on the ability to
>move.  They fire (the whole process from ranging to full barrage) then boogey
>out to somewhere else so they don't get themselves dead.

The Gauss Gun was just the weapon system. I would imagine it would be on
some sort of mobile 'grav sled', plus a point-defense turret.

>
>
>Gary
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:38:58 -0500
>From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
>Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
>
>If asked (and no one did) I'd suggest something like  FASA did with
>their Interceptor game, print the front, rear, top, right and left views
>and shape them into boxes. These make fairly manageable paper "Mini"s.
>I've used the ones from Interceptor in several games... except
>Interceptor itself!
>
>Mike
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> 
>> Actually, for the ship counters, rendering a shot from the proper
>> perspective is quite simple.  You just move the camera around a click away
>> from the ship, then zoom the camera back in all the way.  What this does is
>> gets rid of the perspective warping that you'd otherwise see.  It's
>> identical to useing a telephoto lens with your camera.  When you're zoomed
>> all the way, the picture is "flattened" quite a bit.
>> 
>> Maybe once the Starport project is done I'll have time to do something like
>> that and post it....
>> 
>> Jesse
>
>- -- 
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:34:08 EST
>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroe
>
>> |How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA
starship
>> |combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...
>> 
>> Origami Starships!  
>
>The ones TSR made for Spelljammer certainly made things fun.  Do these things
>make money for the publisher?
>
>
>Gary
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:34:10 EST
>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)
>
>> I get the idea that a CT Dreadnaught differs from a CT Battleship in
>> specialization. A Battleship carries the honkingest big spinal mount, 
>> extensive secondary weapons, and all the armor you can get. A 
>> Dreadnaught carries all that plus fighter wings, Marine assault brigades
(or
>> battalions), etc. Makes the Dreadnaughts lots bigger.
>
>I think Supp 9 would bear that out.  My interpretation of the whole thing was
>that DNs are BB's (look at the ship profiles in Supp 9... all BBs, even the
>"dreadnaughts"), though not all BBs are DNs.  That DN was more of a
>designation that something was "first line" rather than secondary/colonial. 
>
>Cruisers I've always thought of as BBs w/o the armor or secondary weaponry.
>BB style spinal mounts, but less secondary weaponry and armor.  I don't think
>we have any models of BCs.  I would imagine this would be like a BB, but
>lacking the secondary weaponry or armor, but having the other.  So just
one up
>on a cruiser and one down from a true BB.  YMMV
>
>> Matt again:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Destroyer - Although it goes against cannon, this is probably synonymous
>> with escort. Not designed for action independent of a fleet, they exist
>> to screen the heavy ships from other light ships; freeing the heavy
>> forces to engage and destroy enemy heavy forces.
>
>I don't think that goes against canon.  The Midu is supposed to be a fleet
>ship.
>
>> I also make Escorts - ships up to Destroyer size, with high agility and
>> a lot of turret weapon batteries for work against fighters and 1500tn
>> missile boats.
>
>Don't forget the "big" escorts of Rapier/ED-15 fame.  Something intermediate
>between cruisers and DDs.
>
>
>Gary
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:44:37 GMT
>From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
>Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
>
>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:21:29 -0500, "Jesse DeGraff"
><fenris@slip.net> wrote:
>
>>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
>>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>>from the web if you want me to!
>
>>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>Pretty good, Jesse.  If it wasn't for that pocket knife she was
>trying to hide, and if I didn't know what she did for a living
>(and under what conditions), I'd consider flirting with her.
>However, I'm quite fond of living, thank you.
>
>
>- --
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:42:20 -0500
>From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
>Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
>
>This'll teach me not to read all of my mail before replying! Great idea
>Seth, I cast my vote this way.
>
>Mike
>
>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> 
>> How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA starship
>> combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...
>
>- -- 
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:36:08 -0800
>From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
>
>They both are *Excellent* work!!
>
>douglas
>
>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
>IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
>To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 3:31 PM
>Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
>
>
>>Jesse DeGraff posted:
>>>
>>>OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
>>>working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the
>quality
>>>is better as well.
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>Jesse
>>>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>>
>>JACKPOT!!!!
>>
>>Your new illo is *exactly* as I pictured Ditzie.
>>
>>My hat is off to you (for the 8th time).
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:37:41 -0800
>From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>Subject: Now I know what happened to IG's stock of Traveller items...
>
>see below -
>
>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
>IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: MWJ342@aol.com <MWJ342@aol.com>
>To: douglas@teleport.com <douglas@teleport.com>
>Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 3:20 PM
>Subject: Traveller
>
>
>>Dear Traveller
>> I have just received a very large shipment of Marc Miller's Traveller
>books
>>and games. I would like to offer them to you at a special price. I now
>carry
>>over $13,000 in inventory of products from Marc Miller's Traveller. If you
>are
>>interested in any of these please contact me ASAP, because these will be
>going
>>very fast due to great prices. Here is a list of what I have avaiable. Note
>>all books are brand new.
>>
>> MARC MILLER'S TRAVELLER LIST
>>
>>1. Anomalies retail $22.95  my price $5.95
>>2. First Survey retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>3. Psionic Institutes retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>4. Milievo Campaign retail $29.95 my price $7.95
>>5. Missions of State retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>6. Game Screen retail $12.95 my price $2.95
>>7. Emperor's Aresnal retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>8. Milieu O retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>9. Long Way Home retail $12.95 my price $2.95
>>10. Emperor's Vechicles retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>11. Aliens Archive retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>12. Pocket Empires retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>13. Fire, Fusion &Steel retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>14. Gateway retail $12.95 my price $2.95
>>15. Annililik Run retail $12.95 my price $2.95
>>16. Central Supply Catalog retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>17. Naval Architect's Manual retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>18. Imperial Squadrons retail $22.95 my price $5.95
>>
>>Please E-Mail me at MWJ342@aol.com
>>
>>You pay actual shipping cost I will ship any way you would like
>> Thanks,
>> Mark
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:49:28 GMT
>From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
>Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
>
>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:17:49 -0500, "Joseph Kimball"
><HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:
>
>>Having a serious impulse control problem, I had to (quickly) draw what I
>>think Ditzie of Famile Spofulam looks like.  I used my idea couple with some
>>of Jason's and just went with it.  All apologies to Ian and I'll remove it
>>from the web if you want me to!
>
>>What?  Not a blonde?  I definitely think of Ditzie as a blonde.  [Now
>>don't get me wrong, I like blonds - hey, I'm MARRIED to a blonde!]
>
>Naah, Blondes don't usually have that sadistic streak that Ditzie
>has.  Ditzie is definitely a redhead.  I mean, bright, coppery
>RED-head.  Don't let her stand in the sun; you'll be blinded.
>
>- --
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:37:29 -0700
>From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
>Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
>
>I like the younger picture of Ditzie too.  I still think a blonde
>version would be appropriate though <G>.
>- - Joseph
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:50:19 -0500
>From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
>Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
>
>HEY NEAT, multi-Millieu Ditzies!!!! Lessee, if the first picture was in
>Year 0 then the second would be... Year 18/19 ? Guess I'm moving my
>campaign!
>
>Mike
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> 
>> OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I started
>> working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the quality
>> is better as well.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Jesse
>> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>- -- 
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:57:02 GMT
>From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #302
>
>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:34:59 -0500, Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Very nice work, as usual, Jesse.
>
>>I guess you're among those who see Ditzie as a teenager. I think this is
>>missing the gag, though; as Ditzie's inability to pwonounce her R's
>>indicates that she's barely of grade school age.
>
>Naah, the psychochemicals have stunted her mental development.
>Besides, Barbara Walters can't even pronounce her own name, and
>she's older than Jesse's Ditzie.
>
>Of course, you could always change the interpretations - the top
>one is what she'll look like in 10-15 years (if FS lets her
>live); the bottom one is what she looks like now...
>
>
>- --
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:54:54 -0800
>From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
>Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
>
>Actually, voting's been nearly largely in favor of "Damn the geometry, full
>CT ahead :)"  I'll either be flattening what I've got down towards classic
>Scout lines, or just re-building it with the correct lines.
>
>Please say the Aurora Class Clipper is the Gazelle with the Scout grafted to
>the front....No offense, but I can't stand that ship (if that's the one).
>
>I'm working on Ditzie in a "Hostile Environment Fun Suit", aka
>"BabyBattledress" or "Ditzie's Playsuit".  If anyone can come up with a
>better name, let me know!!!!
>
>PMPP?.......Can't say as I remember seeing anything about that
>anywhere......
>
>
>Jesse
>
>
>
>>Assuming I'm not way behind the power curve here, I like the "#2" scout
>>better.  Not only does the weight distribution thing seem to ring positive
>in
>>my noggin, but I always think its gives character and looks better.
>>
>>Damn Jesse...  I don't suppose you could put a Reformation Coalition Aurora
>>Class Clipper on the queue, could you?  I can envision an RC Guide to the
>>Aurora Clipper w/ some of your artwork on the front...  aaaah.
>>
>>And finally I take a look at the Ditzie pix (sounds like I'm browsing a
>porn
>>site or something) lol.  I'm thinking I need to put Ditzie in the New Era
>>somewhere as an NPC.  Maybe have a division of FS in the Reformation
>Coalition
>>w/ a Ditzie clone or soemthing...
>>
>>Hey Kenji, does Jesse know bout the PMPP?  ;-)
>>
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:48:07
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Grav Tank Tactics
>
>At 10:50 AM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Most common phrase used on first sighting an OGRE?  OH
>>SHI......BOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!
>
>Ha.  OGREs don't frighten me.  I mastered the four-howitzer defense early.
>- -- 
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:03:56
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
>
>At 10:27 AM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Or Arameth Gridlore?
>
>Arameth is tall (over 2m) and thin to the point of being skeletal.  He
>obviously is the product of a zero-g enviroment, and when forced to exist
>in a normal g-field, travels in a grav chair.  He has thin white hair
>(sholuder length, bald on top.) His face is best described as severe.
>
>Arameth wears loose fitting ship jumpsuits for the most part.
>- --
>
>Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
>
>"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
>                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:06:22
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
>
>At 08:50 AM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Sam Thomas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>The "Mighty Mo" had "rippled" bottom from running aground at too high a 
>>speed. Rather than fix her they decommissioned her.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Of the CO you could say: His crew grounds the warship he walks on.*
>
>Ghu-dammnit!! I just cleaned this desk!!!!
>
>- -- 
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:28:18 -0800
>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
>Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
>
>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>
>> Naah, Blondes don't usually have that sadistic streak that Ditzie
>> has.  Ditzie is definitely a redhead.  I mean, bright, coppery
>> RED-head.  Don't let her stand in the sun; you'll be blinded.
>
>We must have date very different Blondes then. Mine was
>cool calculating and had no idea what she wanted.
>And the redhead turned out tobe Bi-Polar.
>
>- --
>Evyn...
>
>Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:41:03 -0700
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> 
>
>> PMPP?.......Can't say as I remember seeing anything about that
>> anywhere......
>
>Pelvic Mounted Plasma Pistol...a particularly twisted design that
>SAYBOOM introduced just after a TML discussion of From Dusk Till Dawn
>movie with Quentin Tarantino and George Clooney. One of the bad guys
>wears a pistol that is strapped to his crotch in a pop-up holster. 
>
>(This weapon also makes an brief appearance in Desperado, and is
>allegedly one of the scarier things in the guitar case in El Mariachi)
>
>Scary thing is...the PMPP being a plasma weapon, has a recoil like the
>kick of a mule.
>
>- -- 
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #308
>**********************************
>
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>
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------------------------------

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 312



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Baby Ditzie
Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Any Phoenix-area gamers?
Ditzee-Becca Similarities and Children in Traveller
Re: Baby Ditzie
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Baby Ditzie
Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?
Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?
RE: Any Phoenix-area gamers?
Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?
Re: Generals and stuff
Re: FS Gauss Gun vs Trepida
A Walrus
Traveller Burrito File:  Femme Fatales
Re: Ditzee-Becca Similarities and Children in Traveller
Re: Traveller Burrito File:  Femme Fatales
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:20:12 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Baby Ditzie

The Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net> speaks:

>Ditzee aka Becca Foy in Disguise:

>I'm afraid I'm going to have to sue some  people on this list for image
>copyright infingement. Jesse's younger Ditzie is the splitting image of
>my 8 year old daughter, Rebecca. She can whip my ass in Doom, Nam,

 <snip>

>The 'face' she gets when she's
>"killin' the dudes" on the PC is extremely frightening and downright
>menacing.

 <snip>

>Except for the lip, Becca is Ditzee Spofulam.

 Get the kid one of those BIG SuperSoakers (the CPS 2000 comes to mind; looks
like a freakin Plasma gun...) and take a picture. Then we will have not "just"
a drawing (understand, I love the drawings), but a _photo_ of Ditzie as
well...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:30:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

[Holding himself back from a flame war.]

Yeah, I'm a BIG supporter of "SPAM".  : /  It ain't my business and I was
just trying to help, so go.... [mphf!]

- --Clif


>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Clif wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, I just got this ad...
>
>There is no cost savings sufficient to justify supporting SPAM.
>
>Brannon
>http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:34:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?

Man, it must be in the air.  One of my 4 teachers is getting divorced,
tomorrow.  First we heard about it is today.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brannon W. Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: BayCon was: What DOES Ditzie look like?


>On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Evyn MacDude wrote:
>
>> > Weekend of May 28th-31st.  Gonna' be there?
>> > Jesse
>>
>>  Thinking about it. Yes if the Wife leaves me, Maybe if she's
>> still here. How's that for the grimest line on the list?
>
>My divorce from my gaming-hating ex was final on Friday, and I am happily
>engaged to my wonderful girlfriend who has the ability to see what I enjoy
>and doesn't try to take it away from me :)
>
>And I got full custody of my son to boot.  :) :) :)
>
>Brannon
>
>--
>"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
>will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."
>
>http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:45:59 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Any Phoenix-area gamers?

I wasjust wondering if therre are any Traveller (any version) games looking
for players in the Phoenix, AZ, area.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:42:58 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Ditzee-Becca Similarities and Children in Traveller

Despite my daughters prediliction for guns and ultraviolent video games,
she still likes Barney and Teletubbies (not for target practice). Go
figure! She has a "PO" doll with her in bed along with "Spikey", a
Starship Troopers Warrior Bug (Galoob), the one that makes 'chomping
sounds' when the jaws are snapped. She was really put out when the MI
invaded "Spikey's" home planet, after all it was theirs and the nasty
humans are just meanies, as per her take of Starship Troopers. She says
how would we feel if someone invaded earth? Wouldn't we be mad and
scary? BTW, she loves "Mars Attacks", right on her level. She can't wait
to be old enough to play in either my Traveller or 2300AD campaigns. She
just adores Kafers. Weird kid!

ObTraveller: Has any one seriously had children npc or characters that
weren't brats or Dr. Z super geniouses (shameless BG: 1980  referencee).
Someone like Newt or Anakin so to speak.
Also has anyone had younger players is their campaigns?. When I was in
my twenties playing MT, I had a ten year old player who explained the
starship construction rules to me. And he had never played a roleplaying
game before this! I still have some of his ships somewhere in my stuff.
{He now works for Sierra Online} Sometimes an intellegent (pre-)
teenager has more vigour in roleplaying his character than a soon to be
middle aged adult. Adults seem to morph into GearHeads, History Buff's
(What was Cleon III's middle name? ), or GameoGraphers (Let's see if  I
don't sleep before I go to work  I can finish all the subsectors in that
new Rimward Sector {That's without convenient softwar}).  At a certain
age or lethargy, you don't (your loss) need players, just interested
nostaligists. "Whippersnapper, I was there when the second Library Data
book came out. We waited a long time, too. Yup, thems were th' days".

Looking at Forty but not dead yet:

MUSASHI

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:49:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Baby Ditzie

Has your kid ever been to Kennedy Space Center?

- --Clif

>> She wants to either be a veterinarian/astronaut (NASA has 'em)
>>or A-10 pilot (she wrecks the hog in A-10 Cuba, give her a few weeks!!!)
>>when she grows up. >>MUSASHI
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:52:41 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Pretty impressive, so far.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
To: Traveller Mail List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 2:04 AM
Subject: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...


>Well, the (partially complete) first draft of the grav-ball t-shirt
>design is ready for view and review.  You'll find it at the URL:
>
>  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/gravball
>
>The more feedback I get, the better I can make it! :^)
>
>        - Mark C.
>          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>          Front Sight First Family member #1
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
> 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
>    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
>    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
>    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
>    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:54:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Baby Ditzie

Yeah, but paint the supersoaker some subdued colors, first.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: GypsyComet@aol.com <GypsyComet@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: Baby Ditzie


>The Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net> speaks:
>
>>Ditzee aka Becca Foy in Disguise:
>
>>I'm afraid I'm going to have to sue some  people on this list for image
>>copyright infingement. Jesse's younger Ditzie is the splitting image of
>>my 8 year old daughter, Rebecca. She can whip my ass in Doom, Nam,
>
> <snip>
>
>>The 'face' she gets when she's
>>"killin' the dudes" on the PC is extremely frightening and downright
>>menacing.
>
> <snip>
>
>>Except for the lip, Becca is Ditzee Spofulam.
>
> Get the kid one of those BIG SuperSoakers (the CPS 2000 comes to mind;
looks
>like a freakin Plasma gun...) and take a picture. Then we will have not
"just"
>a drawing (understand, I love the drawings), but a _photo_ of Ditzie as
>well...
>
>GypsyComet
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:02:27 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?

>I wasjust wondering if therre are any Traveller (any version) games looking
>for players in the Phoenix, AZ, area.


    Over here, is one.

>Damien Fox


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:02:27 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?

>I wasjust wondering if therre are any Traveller (any version) games looking
>for players in the Phoenix, AZ, area.


    Over here, is one.

>Damien Fox


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:26:02 -0600
From: "Van Tate" <v2@softhome.net>
Subject: RE: Any Phoenix-area gamers?

Ahh...the infinitely inevitable double posting. Got to love those. Heh. Been
lurking for too long...had to say something.

- ---ooOOoo-------------------
Van Tate
v2@softhome.net
Editor-in-Chief
Gaming Spectrum Magazine

ICQ #33370901

:: -----Original Message-----
:: From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
:: [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Legate Legion
:: Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 2:02 AM
:: To: traveller@mpgn.com; Traveller
:: Subject: Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?
::
::
:: >I wasjust wondering if therre are any Traveller (any
::
::     Over here, is one.
::
:: >Damien Fox

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:43:44 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?

>Ahh...the infinitely inevitable double posting. Got to love those. Heh.
Been
>lurking for too long...had to say something.


    Same here.  *weg*

>Van Tate
>v2@softhome.net
>Editor-in-Chief
>Gaming Spectrum Magazine


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:45:18 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Generals and stuff

>Now for the US Marine members of the list, lets us not forget General
>Patton's first cousin, General "Chesty" Puller. Can we have an Urahh for
that.

Oorah.  Now Chesty is one admirable man and Marine.  5 Navy Crosses.  When
surrounded 8 to 1 by Chinese divisions when the US Army and UN forces broke
and fled, he said "So they've got us surrounded, good, now we can fire in any
direction, the bastards won't get away this time."  

Also amusing, when the Army Chief of Staff phone teh Commandant of the Marine
Corps requesting the return of some of the abandoned equipment and vehicles
(of which everything operable was brought out, wounded and dead evacuated, and
tactical integrity maintained by the Marines), which had all been cannibalized
and the hulks put up on gunnery and target ranges, the Commandant replied
"What equipment is that?"

Ob trav.  NPC of the Imperial Marines with a comparable combat record and
noted 
decorations and proven leadership ability.


Gary 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:45:23 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: FS Gauss Gun vs Trepida

> The FS Gauss Gun is built to TL 9 specs.
> 
> As far as I remember, the Trepida was TL 15.
> 
> Also, look at the top armour of the Trepida. I suspect that a hit would do
> some harm to it.
> 
> Me, I reckon thats pretty good when spotting the opposition six tech levels.

Touche.  :-)  

I didn't say it wasn't.  Just FTR, an Oriflamme TL9 grav tank and grav tank
destroyer could both take it and/or come out reasonably well on the frontal
arcs (AV 204 for both).  Side armor is going to be some bad damage and rear
and belly hits is going to be really bad juju.  Maybe I should do a TL9 tank
that would result in response to teh FS design...  ;-)

Plus, Striker II (the source) indicates both have point defense capable Fire
Control (-2 diff mods). 

> >move.  They fire (the whole process from ranging to full barrage) then
boogey
> >out to somewhere else so they don't get themselves dead.
> 
> The Gauss Gun was just the weapon system. I would imagine it would be on
> some sort of mobile 'grav sled', plus a point-defense turret.

That's what i was thinking.  If the grav tanks should find out where this
beasty is, much less ortillery, they're going to rush it and see if the grav
sled has armor to withstand grav tank level main weaponry or friendly killer
gauss guns.

Don't get me wrong, it's a hideously dangerous weapon system...which is what I
expect from FS.  ;-)


Gary 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:03:24 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: A Walrus

Dom,
>
>We got the Empire, now as then?
>
Maybe G:T has an uipside after all?

Frankie,
>
>"I'd guess it's because you don't _need_ a stable platform
>to land a Harrier"
>
IIRC, the roll/pitch has to be within 27 degrees of horizontal, but cannot
remember the allowed pitch/roll rates.  If anyone is *really* interested, I
suggest either McAir or BAe public relations.

Matt,
>
>..."The rader for the Nimrod AEW.3 never worked."
>
It did so, too.  It just couldn't keep up with the constantly changing
Requirements issued by the MoD - in fact, the whole thing was beter than the
*original* spec called for, but MoD just kept changing things ("Oh, so you
can do that as well now? In that case, add this...")


Clif
Good coupla' posts from you - (aren't we all glad he's still out there? );
is there an international league for Grav-ball, and where do I sign up!
(Hold on - I'd have more luck convincing people I *AM* the ball!).

Mark.C
I like the design.  When did you say they'd be available?

Keep up the good work, all!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:06:25 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Traveller Burrito File:  Femme Fatales

These are women whose sole mission is to embroil a character in a
sex-related scandal or influence them to break a law that will tarnish their
record for the rest of their lives.

Agent or Rogue Mahgdah Lina (or an alias beginning with M) Age 31
Dark, Shiny Hair; Very Light Blue or Very Light Hazel Eyes, A soft-looking
Face, and a natural tannish skin tone, about 5' 4" and a great body for a
mother of 4.
Played By: Elizabeth Hurley with more weight.  The Gypsy Esmeralda in
Disney's "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" or Catherine-Zeta Jones with more
weight and Blue Eyes.  Demi Moore another possibility.

Plays a piano-type instrument skillfully on rare occasions.
She is vivacious and very animated and expressive.
She uses her eyes and eyelashes for a devastating effect.
She's a schemer but a pretty lousy liar.
She's a control freak, but keeps a nice house.
She'll find out what her target likes to eat and offer him some.
She'll sneak behind the character's back and undo his work and later ask
about it.
She is a pretty skilled psychologist and will compile a case study on the
target.
She'll interact with the character intermittently, allowing him or her time
to wish she'd come back.
She'll try to establish commonalities with the target.
Alone with the target she may engage in some innocent seeming discussion
about a racy body part.
She'll complain about needing to get out of debt and then buy expensive
things.
She claims to be spiritually in tune with whatever religious cover she has
adopted for this mission.
She likes to dance.
If the target eludes entrapment and the two go their separate ways, this
agent will commence a media-wide psychological warfare operation to the end
of "gaslighting" (making people think the target is cracking up) the target.
An aloof and half-way decent looking man or woman is liable to turn the
tables on her and affect her to some degree emotionally.  All others are
hamburger.

Possessions:  4 Children and a politically powerful and good-natured husband
20 years older.

Interaction log.

Agent or Rogue  Sindy Lameer  29
Dark hair dyed Auburn or Red, Green Eyes, Pretty face with an upper lip that
is wider on the sides, killer figure:  round fanny, great legs, small waist,
flat tummy, hip bones stick out ready for grinding, average but firm chest:

Will stand near the target with her knuckles on her hips., arms akimbo,
looking like she should have a supergirl outfit on.
Always wears jeans or equivalent.
Woodsy long sleeve shirt or tight short-sleeved pullover.
May recline legs in a 4 position with fingers of one hand suggestively on
her inner thigh.
Loves to discuss alcoholic drinks with suggestive names like "blow job."
Will offer the target a ride if he or she needs one.
Masters 3-D computer shoot 'em ups.
Brings home-made cookies for all of her coworkers every Friday.
If the target makes an advance, she will carry the sexual harrassment
complaint to an extreme.  Target's job may be threatened, may have charges
pressed, and be sued in a civil court.  Her so-called military "husband" may
come to give the target a pounding.

Possessions:  Off-road SUV or similar Grav vehicle.  Home.

Interaction Log:

Agent or Rogue Shannen Murphy  25
She is about 4' 10" but her figure is properly proportioned for her height.
Sandy blonde hair, Men interested in young girls and small women they can
pick up will be particularly attracted to her.
Played By: Elisabeth Shue

She is on an anti-depressant and has a rather bubbly and feisty personality.
Think Elaine Benes of Seinfeld but more hyper.
Hourly runs off to "pee," squeezing her legs together if detained.
Will confide in the target with the knowledge that she would leave her
husband if she thought her husband wouldn't take her little daughter away.
Will go into detail about how she lost her virginity at age 14 in a
boyfriend's car.
Will "accidentally" press her chest firmly against the character's arm, not
seeming to notice.
Will come right out and say "I know you want me, [target's name]."
Will call the character up to ask him or her out to the theatre, bringing
her daughter along.
Has a highly temperamental and jealous husband with a colorful vocabulary.
Will cry "sexual harrassment" and take the character's job as a promotion.

Possessions:  Truck, House.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:10:40 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzee-Becca Similarities and Children in Traveller

Sounds to me like she's ready for you campaign, now!  She's certainly seen
enough blood & gore!  : )  RPG'ing will be mild in comparison.


>She was really put out when the MI
>invaded "Spikey's" home planet, after all it was theirs and the nasty
>humans are just meanies, as per her take of Starship Troopers. She says
>how would we feel if someone invaded earth? Wouldn't we be mad and
>scary? BTW, she loves "Mars Attacks", right on her level. She can't wait
>to be old enough to play in either my Traveller or 2300AD campaigns. She
>just adores Kafers. Weird kid!


Cool kid, more like!  Obviously a gifted independent thinker!
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:20:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Burrito File:  Femme Fatales

Forgot a point on this one:

>Agent or Rogue Shannen Murphy  25
>She is about 4' 10" but her figure is properly proportioned for her height.
>Sandy blonde hair, Men interested in young girls and small women they can
>pick up will be particularly attracted to her.
>Played By: Elisabeth Shue
>
>She is on an anti-depressant and has a rather bubbly and feisty
personality.
>Think Elaine Benes of Seinfeld but more hyper.
>Hourly runs off to "pee," squeezing her legs together if detained.
>Will confide in the target with the knowledge that she would leave her
>husband if she thought her husband wouldn't take her little daughter away.
>Will go into detail about how she lost her virginity at age 14 in a
>boyfriend's car.
>Will "accidentally" press her chest firmly against the character's arm, not
>seeming to notice.
>Will come right out and say "I know you want me, [target's name]."
Will stand close behind target while he is talking to someone and sniff his
armpits.
>Will call the character up to ask him or her out to the theatre, bringing
>her daughter along.
>Has a highly temperamental and jealous husband with a colorful vocabulary.
>Will cry "sexual harrassment" and take the character's job as a promotion.
>
>Possessions:  Truck, House.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:11:45 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?


>Since the commander is my creation, I can help on that end.  I always
>pictured him as a tall barrel chested middle aged man.  With greying hair
>and Salt-n-Peper breard.  His usual attire is a custom made black dress
>tunic made in Imperial Navy style, with a gold "X" crisscrossing it.
>Pants are Imperial Navy standard and dark black boots.  An impressive
>figure if you ever met him for the first time.


    You know I have been thinking about this, but I would have to say, to me
at least, the good Commander X, looks like a older, wiser Captain Harlock.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:03:34 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

At 10:57 PM 18/03/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Well, the (partially complete) first draft of the grav-ball t-shirt
>design is ready for view and review.  You'll find it at the URL:
>
>  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/gravball
>
>The more feedback I get, the better I can make it! :^)
>

        Hi, Mark....
        Ummm....  None of the three of them look like they have ever played
before.  Body postures, etc....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:34:26 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Date sent:      	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:51:12 -0500
From:           	"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>

This is getting way too long and way to OT. However I think I've managed
to sneak in a small ObTrav at the end.

>At 10:11 PM 3/18/99 -0500, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>>Montgomery was a meticulous planner and paid attention to minute
>>detail. But Montgomery was acutely aware of Britians manpower crisis
>>(out of a population 1/3rd the size Britian produced an airface and navy
>>as large as the US and an army half the size). He knew that there was
>>no manpower pool to replace losses. If Montgomery lost a division it was
>>not comming back. Montgomery could not afford to lose.

>   Perhaps, but do you care to explain Operation Market Garden?  Many lives
>in the British First Airborne Division (among many others) were sacrificed
>in a scheme that simply relied too much on timing and luck.  Had it even
>succeeded, it would not have been the knockout blow that Monty always
>thought it would have been.

Despite the risk of Market Garden, relatively little was risked (basically just
three divisions, only one of which was British and therefore irreplacable). It
was uncharacteristic of Montgomery to take such risks. I guess all generals
can have bad days.

>>Also Montgomery (like all 2nd WW British commanders) had lived
>>through the 1st WW and had seen nearly 1,000,000 British dead.
>>Compare this with the US losses of only 50,000. As a result of this
>>British commanders were a lot more careful than US commanders.

>   Caution was a British military command trait prior to WW I.  Let the
>situation develop in front of you, then picking the precise moment and
>place of enemy weakness to strike.

Largely the result of a history of adopting a maritime strategy. It goes with
the British foundness for attacking the perpheries rather than the direct
drive.

>>Patton on the other hand was a product of a classical Clauswitzian
>>establishement. The US military believed in "march to the enemies
>>main force and defeat them in battle".

>   Patton is the product of a military establishment that believed in using
>the tactics that work.  While Clausewitz is definately an influence, one
>should first look to Sherman and Grant and the American Civil War before
>going back to Clausewitz.  Both Sherman and Grant were students of
>Clausewitz, but implemented his philosophies in different ways.

US strategy was classic Clausewitz, march into the enemy heartland and
force the mainforce to battle. British strategy owed far more to Mahan,
attack the enemy at the perpheries and weaken them so they can fall to a
well placed offensive.

>>He was backed by lavish reserves and knew that if he stuffed up totally, 
>>it was not the end, another army could be built. He was in the position 
>>of being able to take risks and could afford bold strokes that might end in 
>>disaster.

>   Patton did not waste resources or men.

Most certainly not. However Patton also knew that if total disaster struck
the 3rd Army and every single man was killed or captured, they could be
replaced. Montgomery knew that if the 21st Army Group was lost it could
not be replaced.

>Indeed, when you compare the
>quality of the tanks and equipment the Germans were using in relation to
>that being produced for the U.S. Army, he simply had no choice but to order
>his men into an extremely aggressive strategy of engaging the enemy
>frequently and often, pressing and overwhelming the enemy when necessary.
>Men die in such circumstances, but in fewer quantities than if a long
>campaign of atrition had been carried out.

The relative strengths of the US and German tanks had little to do with it. 
Armour was the only area of German superiority (albeit a biggie). Most
Allied equipment (artillery, transport, etc) was at least equal and much of
it was superior (the US had the best standard issue side arm) and Allied 
superiority in airpower paralysed the German ability to respond.

>>Patton was also deeply aware of the fragility of his troops morale. He 
>>knew that if his troops were not going forwards their morale would collapse 
>>in short order.

>   This explains the stand of the 101st Airborne at Bastogne...I could go
>on but why...

The 101st (one of the elite US formations) was invested on the 20th (by a
single division, the 26th Volksgrenadier), the allied counteroffensive began
on the 21st (the garrision could actually hear the artillery), aerial resupply
and extensive airsupport began on the 23rd and the garrison was relieved on
the 26th. Even Singapore took 8 days to fall. And with all that, most writers
comment on the fact that the garrisons morale held. Not to underestimate
the importance or stuborness of the stand of 101st, but just to keep it in
perspective. Yes US units could perform excellantly, but their morale was
still brittle.

>   A rather simplstic opinion of the Third Army and U.S. Army in general.

However an unfortunately accurate one. While the US army in the 2nd WW
was made up of excellent raw material (first class manpower, competant
leadership, lavish supplies, superb equipment etc) and should have
performed accordingly. Yet its overall performance was only adequate. The
problem was mostly with the way the army was managed (especially with
regard to manpower). The individual US soldier was treated as just another
item of materiale. No attempt was made to keep units intact. If a soldier
was wounded, he would be treated (very well) but when he recovered he
would be shipped to a replacement depot and assigned to a new unit as
required. The US high command regarded war as just another management
problem rather than a clash of wills. Consequently US units tended to lack
cohesion and their morale was somewhat brittle.

>   BTW, subtle manuevers in the vicinity of a Pzkw V "Panther" (or worse
>yet a Pzkw VIb "King Tiger") while driving a Sherman tank are a sure way to
>end up dead...

Subtle maneuvers (or the "ambush and gang-up", a British speciality) were
the only way an M4 could take out a Panther or Tiger :*>. But mostly the
Panthers and Tigers never reached the front. They were blown up by P41s
and Typhoons.

>>Therefore he adopted simplistic plans and ignored such "unneccessaries" 
>>as flank guards or latteral maneuver. Of course this was risky, but he 
>>could afford those risks.

>   When you are implementing a tactic of pressing the enemy in the manner
>that Patton did, forward thrust prevents the enemy from reorganizing,
>resupplying, or having the time to do things like staging flank attacks.
>This is one of the reasons that Patton was always railing for more
>supplies, particularly gasoline--his tactics required a steady stream of it
>in order to work.

Patton relied on the fact that allied airpower had removed the German's
ability to maneuver and would pummel anything that moved.

ObTrav. Just how does the Imperium regard war. Does it follow Clausewitz
and concentrate on the drive on the enemy capital? or does it follow Mahan
and pick away at the edges, slowly weakening their opponent? What about
the Solomani? the Vargr (classic candidates for Mahan IMHO)? the Aslan?
Do any of the great powers have any unique approaches?


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #312
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 313



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Diplo armor - what is it?
Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Renegade LEGION  Centurion
Re: Grav-Ball T-shirt design in progress..
Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)
Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)
Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
Re: Diplo armor - what is it?
Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:39:43 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Diplo armor - what is it?

>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:38:35 -0500
>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>Subject: Re: Diplo armor - what is it?
>
>At 08:24 PM 3/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>I don't own, nor can I find, any T4 stuff. However, I've heard about
>>this Diplo armor. Could some kind soul take a moment and let me know
>>just what that is?
>
>According to T4 central supply catalog, it is a form-fitting flexible armor
>that can be worn under formal or light clothing. 

If you are using GURPS Traveller, a reasonable facsimile can be found in
GURPS Ultra-Tech 2, pp. 73-74, under "Tailored Flexible Armor". These rules
(too long to reproduce here, unfortunately) allow you to design flexible
armor as clothing, with protection proportional to thickness and stiffness.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:47:43 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Baby Ditzie
>
>Yeah, but paint the supersoaker some subdued colors, first.
>
>- --Clif


Subdued colors ? From Famile Spofulam weapons ? Are you sure ?



>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: FS Gauss Gun vs Trepida
>
>I didn't say it wasn't.  Just FTR, an Oriflamme TL9 grav tank and grav tank
>destroyer could both take it and/or come out reasonably well on the frontal
>arcs (AV 204 for both).  Side armor is going to be some bad damage and rear
>and belly hits is going to be really bad juju.  Maybe I should do a TL9 tank
>that would result in response to teh FS design...  ;-)

Ummm, it hurts more than 204. A lot more. More like damage 300 when firing
KEAP, in fact.

>
>Plus, Striker II (the source) indicates both have point defense capable Fire
>Control (-2 diff mods). 

Like I said earlier, I'd expect most TL9 and up AFVs to have integral point
defense.

The question is is TL9 fire control good enough to stop KEAP projectiles
going at kilometers per second, or is it designed to stop ATGMs going at a
fraction of this ?

>> The Gauss Gun was just the weapon system. I would imagine it would be on
>> some sort of mobile 'grav sled', plus a point-defense turret.
>
>That's what i was thinking.  If the grav tanks should find out where this
>beasty is, much less ortillery, they're going to rush it and see if the grav
>sled has armor to withstand grav tank level main weaponry or friendly killer
>gauss guns.
>
>Don't get me wrong, it's a hideously dangerous weapon system...which is
what I
>expect from FS.  ;-)

The thing that makes it obscenely dangerous, in my view, is the rate of fire.

The original concept was to operate from a hull-down direct fire role,
protected by anti-laser aeosols, and to pour fire into targets of opportunity.

Most hi-tech weapon systems fire at or about a shot every 20 seconds.

The FS gauss gun is designed to put about 16 rounds out in that period.

With a good gunner, it isnt impossible you could tag 3 or 4 enemy tanks in
that period. You could certainly miss on the first shot, and have a second
inbound while the enemy is reacting to it.

After that, things slow down a lot - what makes it so big is the obscene
amount of power it takes to accelerate 30 kilo slugs to that speed.

The same investment in accumulators for a TL10 fusion gun is truly scary to
think about. 

Finally, I think ortillery is over-rated. The atmosphere, cloud cover and
sheer distance will strongly limit the effectivness of orbital fire support
in my opinion.

The other issue that has to be regarded in 'good wars' is the Imperial
guidelines against making war in space.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:08:46 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

>Well, the (partially complete) first draft of the grav-ball t-shirt
>design is ready for view and review.  You'll find it at the URL:
>
>  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/gravball

That was quick !

>The more feedback I get, the better I can make it! :^)

I actually didn't expect that much colour & complexity, I was originally
thinking of something like athelete's wear during training & warm-ups, on a
sweat shirt type material with probably a monotone logo and maybe a name or
number, like all those colllege football team sweatshirts.

That one  looks more like the shirt they'd sell to the crowd at the gate than
one the players would wear !
:-)

It's a good design for a publicity shirt,  though as someone else said you
might need to work on the people's posture. I'll see if I can dig out some old
2000AD's, there were some good-looking shots from that sort of angle in the
grav-ball series in there.

What did  you use to make the people ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:10:15 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

>This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???

There was some once. 

I remember they came out of the woodwork when we mentioned lunar cycles !
<GD&R>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:20:51 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Renegade LEGION  Centurion

>I have actually used the little plastic Centurion tanks in an actual
>(100's) of Centurion games and I feel like I'm the only one in the world
>who has Gm'd Renegade Legion RPG: Legionaire.

Nope, you;r not the only one. Some of the players round here first started on
RL (though I started a bit earlier ). and still have all the books and games.

If you play with all the
>supplements for Centurion you have a fun game: very quick, very lethal,
>and very nervewracking. W/Out Thor Satellites it is a very LETHAL
>battlefield. Without mines, arty, orty, and infantry it is very LETHAL.

Yep, in RL at least, grav-tanks are largely sitting ducks for fighters and
space weaponry.
That is, if you can get Command to release them for ground attack ...

>But that is what the universe of RL is all about: Combat, Combat, Combat
>with the slightest premise of backstory.

That's a litle harsh. There was quite a bit of backstory and at least three
novels
( Traveller took longer to get that far )

>INTECEPTOR was a cute PC game,
>it came out about the same time as  Wing Commander II.

Interceptor is also a cute boardgame.
I'd be interested to know how similar it is to AeroTech.

>RL is still
>going on strong with an E-Zine, mailing list, and a few web pages here
>and there. E-mail me direct and I'll send some to ya!  BTW, does anyone
>on the TML play/played Levithian/Battlespace?

Yes to Leviatghan, never owned the Battletech stuff though
The _best_ way to do it is to have all four Centurion, Interceptor, Leviathan,
and Prefect, and play a mutliplayer, ful-scale, combined-arms invasion.

I have also used Centurion for Traveller skirmishes.

<snip>
>DEATH TO TH' F**KING TOGGIE SCUM!
>
>COMMONWEALTH FOREVER! THE LEGION NEVER SURRENDERS!

Traitorous rebel imbecile.
Submit to the Government now and we may spare your cattle.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:32:55 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-shirt design in progress..

>Hey, gang!  The design for the Grav-Ball t-shirt is underway and I'd
>like some input.

<snip>
>What I'm really interested in getting from the list is *TEXT*.  What
>should the t-shirt say?  I'm considering phrases like:
>
>    IISS 114th Exploration Branch
>        Efate Grav-Ball Team      (above artwork)

Yep, something like that that sounds good., though tying them to just Efate
sounds a little small for the ISS,
you sort of expect them to range woder somehow. And 114th Exp _Branch_ doesn't
quite ring true. maybe :

114th Sqdn, Exploration Branch

(or Troop, or Flotiilla, or Detachment, or whatever)


>    "Taking ACM to a new level"   (below artwork)

Or you could try some sort of pun on the motto like "First In the Hoop"

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:41:54 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)

>>> > Unless we start the TML '99 OGRE acronym contest...<G>
>> >
>> "Oh, God, Run Everyone!"
>> 
>Unanimous, so far....
>
>Unless you prefer:  "Oh, Great.  Real Excitement!"

Geez, I expected some gearhead answers from you guys. like 

"Objective Geographical Renovation Equipment"


I also liked :

"One Greatly Respected Enemy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:39:54 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

At 23:47 19/03/1999 +1000, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
<snip>
>After that, things slow down a lot - what makes it so big is the obscene
>amount of power it takes to accelerate 30 kilo slugs to that speed.

not forgetting the problem of feeding it a ton and a half of ammo
every minute.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:47:55 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)

At 02:41 AM 3/20/99 +1300, you wrote:
>
>>>> > Unless we start the TML '99 OGRE acronym contest...<G>
>>> >
>>> "Oh, God, Run Everyone!"
>>> 
>>Unanimous, so far....
>>
>>Unless you prefer:  "Oh, Great.  Real Excitement!"
>
>Geez, I expected some gearhead answers from you guys. like 
>
>"Objective Geographical Renovation Equipment"
>
>
>I also liked :
>
>"One Greatly Respected Enemy"
>

        "Overt Gropos Regiment Exterminator"?

        "Openly Graphic Regional Eliminator"?
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:49:52 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

At 01:39 PM 3/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 23:47 19/03/1999 +1000, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
><snip>
>>After that, things slow down a lot - what makes it so big is the obscene
>>amount of power it takes to accelerate 30 kilo slugs to that speed.
>
>not forgetting the problem of feeding it a ton and a half of ammo
>every minute.
>
>Phil Kitching
>--

        It's *got* an auto-loader....  =)

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:06:50 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Ahhh...another Poser fan I see.  Cool...

I agree about the two players in the back...not optimal poses.
If I get any spare time this week, I'll try to come up with some 
alternate poses for the background players.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend 
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY 
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting. 
              http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:10:07 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

At 09:49 19/03/1999 -0400, Michel Vaillancourt
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
>At 01:39 PM 3/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>At 23:47 19/03/1999 +1000, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>><snip>
>>>After that, things slow down a lot - what makes it so big is the obscene
>>>amount of power it takes to accelerate 30 kilo slugs to that speed.
>>
>>not forgetting the problem of feeding it a ton and a half of ammo
>>every minute.
>>
>
>        It's *got* an auto-loader....  =)

But what loads the auto-loader? Is there an auto-loader-loader?

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:07:36 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)

The WWI battlecruisers were longer (750' vs 650'),
heavier (35kt vs 32kt) and more expensive (4M GBP vs 2M GBP)
than the battleships.

The weapons (main and secondary) were similar.

In CT, at TL 15, you can expect the battleships to pull 6G whilst
firing all weapons. At lower tech, the trade off between armour
and agility might be more significant.

A better comparison would be to have the battleships at J3 or 4 and
the battlecruisers at J5 or 6.

Besides, shouldn't all 200kt+ battleships be buffered planetoids
to get that factor 21 armour?

I agree with the idea of dreanoughts being multi-role battleships,
so a dreadnought battlecruiser should be J6, 6G, meson T, lots of
lasers and missiles, fully streamlined, fuel scoops, fighters,
assault battalions, cargo. Oh, and some armour if it fits.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:15:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Howdy!
> 
[snip]

>    Montgomery took large amounts of resources to implement Market Garden,
> resources that were taken away from Patton and forced him to stop his
> offensive operations elsewhere along the front around Nancy.
> 
[snip]

...which pause opened the way for Lt. Kelly's little operation... :)

ObTrav: Fifth Frontier War - small band of opportunists take advantage
of a fluid situation to jump to a system "behind" enemy lines to 
liberate valuables.
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:21:10 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

At 02:10 PM 3/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 09:49 19/03/1999 -0400, Michel Vaillancourt
><misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
>>At 01:39 PM 3/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>>At 23:47 19/03/1999 +1000, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>>><snip>
>>>>After that, things slow down a lot - what makes it so big is the obscene
>>>>amount of power it takes to accelerate 30 kilo slugs to that speed.
>>>
>>>not forgetting the problem of feeding it a ton and a half of ammo
>>>every minute.
>>>
>>
>>        It's *got* an auto-loader....  =)
>
>But what loads the auto-loader? Is there an auto-loader-loader?
>
>Phil Kitching

        A weasel-driven conveyor belt coming out of an elephant powered
nickel-smelter....
        We could get *really* silly with this thread....


        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:23:39 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

At 09:15 AM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Howdy!
>> 
>[snip]
>
>>    Montgomery took large amounts of resources to implement Market Garden,
>> resources that were taken away from Patton and forced him to stop his
>> offensive operations elsewhere along the front around Nancy.
>> 
>[snip]
>
>...which pause opened the way for Lt. Kelly's little operation... :)
>
>ObTrav: Fifth Frontier War - small band of opportunists take advantage
>of a fluid situation to jump to a system "behind" enemy lines to 
>liberate valuables.
>-- 

        Unfortuantely during one crucial engagement, the missile racks turn
out to be loaded with paint rounds for target practice....

        =)

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:35:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Mark Cook wrote:
> 
> Well, the (partially complete) first draft of the grav-ball t-shirt
> design is ready for view and review.  You'll find it at the URL:
> 
>   http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/gravball
> 
> The more feedback I get, the better I can make it! :^)

The lead players nose is still straight...he's either a rank newbie or has 
had lots of cosmetic surgery. Grav-ball's gonna be a contact sport, and if
they're not wearinh helmets and masks they're gonna look like the average
hockey or rugby player.

There's a logo for ya!

'Grav-ball players eat their dead'

In Bilindin, of course! (ducks into bunker)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:47:57 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: KEYBOARD / SCREEN WARNING :) - A younger Ditzie

OH thats good, really good.  I still like an older Ditzie though.

JimC

On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:51:28 -0800 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
writes:
>OK, after I learned Ditzie's generally supposed to be younger, I 
>started
>working on a new pic last night.  I took my time on this one so the 
>quality
>is better as well.
>
>Best,
>Jesse
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:46:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 

> I don't remember that being the inspiration for it, actually, but it's all
> a blur at this point.  Having made a point of avoiding that movie, I can
> lay all blame for my knowledge of it upon the TML with a clear conscience.
> 
> > Scary thing is...the PMPP being a plasma weapon, has a recoil like the
> > kick of a mule.
> 
> I think 6, on the TNE scale.  But as my simulated recoil experiments
> demonstrated (duct tape + plexiglass + foam rubber + dildo harness +
> boxer), pelvic mounts are much better firing platforms than arm/shoulder
> locations.  At least for ~50% of the current human population.

I dug up a ref to it on my HWIG CD:


- ----------------------------------------------------
The Commander's BureauX Agents report that Kenji transmitted the following:

> -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!
>
> Weapon Type:      TL-11 manual repeater plasma frontarm
>
> Ammunition:       2.8x8.5 cm CPC
> Pulse Energy:     90 kJ
> Weapon Length:    30.4 cm
> Weapon Weight:    4.188 kg loaded, 3.108 kg empty with no magazine
>
> Weapon Price:     Cr1322
> Magazine Weight:  1.08 kg loaded, 0 kg empty
>
> Features:         Laser sight, shock absorber
>
> Range 30m, recoil 6.266
>
> Mark Miller's Traveller
> Name            Damage   TL   Range   Shots   Mass    Reloads   Cost
> Plasma Novelty     9     11   Short     5    4.2 kg   1.1 kg   Cr1325


GAAAH!  What in the burning suns.....

Why didn't I think of it!   I ENVY this toy.   It all seems FREUDIAN 
somehow.  Do the Sayat have some kind of FIXATION?


Sorry for the psychological humor, but I was a psych student at one time ;-)

But whatever you do, please, PLEASE keep this away from Hengie and the 
kids!!!

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:50:53 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Diplo armor - what is it?

Juliean Galak wrote:
> 
> At 08:24 PM 3/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >I don't own, nor can I find, any T4 stuff. However, I've heard about
> >this Diplo armor. Could some kind soul take a moment and let me know
> >just what that is?
> 
> According to T4 central supply catalog, it is a form-fitting flexible armor
> that can be worn under formal or light clothing.  It masses 1kg, provides a
> flexible armor rating of 3, and imposes a -1 DM on End-based rolls, since
> it has no air-circulation and is thus hot and uncomfortable.  It costs 500Cr.
> 
> A heavier version is available, which has reflective plates attached. It
> gives armor 5 (flexible) vs. most stuff, 8 vs. lasers.  It gives -1 DM to
> End- and Dex-based rolls.  It masses 2kg, and costs 1000Cr.
> 
> Both versions are TTL-11

Thanks! That's going to go into my players' equipment list.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:54:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

No, I'm not.

- --Clif

>>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>>Subject: Re: Baby Ditzie
>>
>>Yeah, but paint the supersoaker some subdued colors, first.
>>
>>- --Clif
>
>
>Subdued colors ? From Famile Spofulam weapons ? Are you sure ?
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:01:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

Given Ditzie's aura of impending doom, how in the world will she ever become
a woman?

- --Clif
Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
Spokescartoon/Mascot.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #313
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 314



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GT Adventure in Pyramid...
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)
Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Ship Classes
Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
[none]
Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:01:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: GT Adventure in Pyramid...

For those interested,

SJG's online magazine, Pyramid, includes a GT adventure, complete 
with stats on two NPCs, a cold sleep-related disorder Cryogenic 
Narcosis, a cargo-bot, a star system (and all it's associated 
planetary bodies) and a minor race.  Although I have some minor 
problems with certain little details, the adventure overall seems 
quite sound, and the level of rules related detail is great.

The name of the adventure is "The Theta-Nine Sleepers", by Rick 
LaRue.

While it may or may not be useful to you, I'd still recommend looking 
it over and rating it.  That will help support further GT adventures, 
by demonstrating an interest in them.

Thanks for your time.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled 
thread, already in progress...

Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:23:53 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

AM-V axed:
|ObTrav. Just how does the Imperium regard war. Does it follow Clausewitz
|and concentrate on the drive on the enemy capital? or does it follow Mahan
|and pick away at the edges, slowly weakening their opponent? What about
|the Solomani? the Vargr (classic candidates for Mahan IMHO)? the Aslan?
|Do any of the great powers have any unique approaches?


I do see the Imps as having any particular war college.  They seem to rely
on the whim of the admiral at the front.  Each of their "big" wars were
fought differently.  About the only recurring theme is that they do not have
the initiative in any war.  Early losses, slow regrouping, reluctant
reinforcement and reliance on frontier admirals to "solve" the war.  They
seem to take it for granted rather than regard it in one way or another (at
least circa 1110).




==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:24:54 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

No,no, I'm not gonna touch this...........awwwwww, heck, yeah I will. 
Ditzie would probably go in for a guy who's 1) a gearhead 2) a crack shot
3) at least a little crazy.  Safe sex, however, takes on a whole new
meaning with Ditzie.  As in, at a minimum, a set of custom cloth,
possibly with headgear, and a first aid kit close by.  Probably the whole
thing would initiate with a discussion of plasma weapon design, followed
by demonstrations of individual prowess with said weapons.  Ditzie would
probably get rather excited by a guy who can really handle weapons well. 
Just dont let her blind side you, you might regret it.

JimC

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:01:20 -0500 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>Given Ditzie's aura of impending doom, how in the world will she ever 
>become
>a woman?
>
>--Clif
>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:47:42 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

Reminds me of a scene in John Gardner's Bond book "License to Kill" (I
think) where Q'ute (Anne Reilly, female Q branch assistant) pisses Bond of
when they're alone and he is lovingly cleaning on the grease packing from a
new (as in, never worked by the end-user) Browning 9mm.  Her comment was
something about how he was making love to that gun as if it were a woman.

- --Clif

[How Ditzie might be attracted to a crack-shot gearhead who knew his
weapons.]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:09:59 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Clif wrote:

> Given Ditzie's aura of impending doom, how in the world will she ever become
> a woman?

You've never met a woman with an aura of impending doom? Where do you
LIVE???

Brannon  ;)

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:07:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

Great work!  Man, I can't wait until they're done!

I do have some comments, though:

On Postures, it might look better if the other team are trying to 
dive for the ball, too.  Or at least one of them.  While it looks 
like the main player had bowled the other two over, it doesn't carry 
that same zero-g feel to it.

On Taglines, Above, how about:

IISS 114th Explorers
Regina Raiders

...or something similar, based off of a subsector name.  Limiting 
oneself to a single system sounds like it's a little league set-up, 
and sectors are too big to sponsor anything more frequently than the 
occasional decade-based Imperial Grav-Ball Tournament.  Or if you're 
looking to put the Traveller name on it, try Trin's Travellers  :)

On Taglines, Below, how about:

First Win!

From AstroBurgers, a Proud Sponsor of the Spinward Marches team in 
the 1120 Imperial Grav-Ball Open

We're Not Just First Contact Anymore...

If You Can't Take The Heat, Stay Out Of The Corona

The True "First Contact" Sport

Survey This, Buddy!

Grav-Ball: Sport Or Obsession

The Stench You Smell Is Your Impending Defeat

....

One last note:  How hard would it be to make one of the players be a 
Vargr or an Aslan?

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:13:57 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?

In message <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9903181023520.14384-
100000@magicnet.magicnet.net>, William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
writes
>Since the commander is my creation, I can help on that end.  I always
>pictured him as a tall barrel chested middle aged man.  With greying hair
>and Salt-n-Peper breard.  His usual attire is a custom made black dress
>tunic made in Imperial Navy style, with a gold "X" crisscrossing it.
>Pants are Imperial Navy standard and dark black boots.  An impressive
>figure if you ever met him for the first time.

Even more impressive if you insert a comma between dress and tunic
above.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:24:07 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

>On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Clif wrote:
>
>> Given Ditzie's aura of impending doom, how in the world will she ever
become
>> a woman?
>
>You've never met a woman with an aura of impending doom? Where do you
>LIVE???
>
>Brannon  ;)
>

That was pretty good.  : )
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:26:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes:

>         Ummm....  None of the three of them look like they have ever played
> before.  Body postures, etc....

Wow!  I didn't realize we had a veteran grav-ball player on the list! :^)

So, help me fix them.  How *should* they be posed?

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:26:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

It would be nice if part of the pic showed a hit of a floor far(?) below, to
give a sense of altitude.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 11:16 AM
Subject: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas


Great work!  Man, I can't wait until they're done!

I do have some comments, though:

On Postures, it might look better if the other team are trying to
dive for the ball, too.  Or at least one of them.  While it looks
like the main player had bowled the other two over, it doesn't carry
that same zero-g feel to it.

On Taglines, Above, how about:

IISS 114th Explorers
Regina Raiders

...or something similar, based off of a subsector name.  Limiting
oneself to a single system sounds like it's a little league set-up,
and sectors are too big to sponsor anything more frequently than the
occasional decade-based Imperial Grav-Ball Tournament.  Or if you're
looking to put the Traveller name on it, try Trin's Travellers  :)

On Taglines, Below, how about:

First Win!

>From AstroBurgers, a Proud Sponsor of the Spinward Marches team in
the 1120 Imperial Grav-Ball Open

We're Not Just First Contact Anymore...

If You Can't Take The Heat, Stay Out Of The Corona

The True "First Contact" Sport

Survey This, Buddy!

Grav-Ball: Sport Or Obsession

The Stench You Smell Is Your Impending Defeat

....

One last note:  How hard would it be to make one of the players be a
Vargr or an Aslan?

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:30:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:

> It's a good design for a publicity shirt,  though as someone else said you
> might need to work on the people's posture. I'll see if I can dig out some old
> 2000AD's, there were some good-looking shots from that sort of angle in the
> grav-ball series in there.

I'd like to see that.  It'd give me an alternate on which to work.

> What did  you use to make the people ?

On, you know.  Amino acids, lightning, the usual stuff. :^)

Seriously, I used an application called Poser 3 by MetaCreations.
It's extemely powerful when it come to generating human figures.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:34:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:

> >What I'm really interested in getting from the list is *TEXT*.  What
> >should the t-shirt say?  I'm considering phrases like:
> >
> >    IISS 114th Exploration Branch
> >        Efate Grav-Ball Team      (above artwork)
> 
> Yep, something like that that sounds good., though tying them to just
> Efate sounds a little small for the ISS,
> you sort of expect them to range woder somehow. And 114th Exp _Branch_
> doesn't quite ring true. maybe :
> 
> 114th Sqdn, Exploration Branch
> 
> (or Troop, or Flotiilla, or Detachment, or whatever)

Yeah, I agree with all of that, Frank.  It needs a little tweaking.

> >    "Taking ACM to a new level"   (below artwork)
> 
> Or you could try some sort of pun on the motto like "First In the Hoop"

Now *THAT* is a great idea!  I'd like to hear more suggestions along
this line.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:37:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> writes:

> Ahhh...another Poser fan I see.  Cool...

Yup.  I'm a firm believer in, "Buy the best; then you can't blame
poor results on poor tools."

> I agree about the two players in the back...not optimal poses.
> If I get any spare time this week, I'll try to come up with some 
> alternate poses for the background players.

Michel V. indicated the same thing.  I'd love some alternate poses
or pose suggestions from any of you.  If you actually could provide
Poser (v2 or v3) files, it'd be even better!

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:41:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

> The lead players nose is still straight...he's either a rank newbie or has 
> had lots of cosmetic surgery. Grav-ball's gonna be a contact sport, and if
> they're not wearinh helmets and masks they're gonna look like the average
> hockey or rugby player.

Oh, that's *easy* to fix!  I'll just break his nose! :^)

I really can do that.  Additionally, I'd planned to put headgear
and shades on each player, make them a bit less personable.

> There's a logo for ya!
> 
> 'Grav-ball players eat their dead'
> 
> In Bilindin, of course! (ducks into bunker)

Maybe that's what should be on the chest of the lead player. :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:57:36 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)

>so a dreadnought battlecruiser should be J6, 6G, meson T, lots of
>lasers and missiles, fully streamlined, fuel scoops, fighters,
>assault battalions, cargo. Oh, and some armour if it fits.

From a naval historian's standpoint, that's a coke-on-the-keyboard
line. "Oh, and some armour if it fits" is the best summary of the
Fisher school of battlecruiser design I've ever heard...

Later variants that don't cap armour and handle it in the weird way HG 
does make a "battlecruiser" concept more viable, since large ships are
often trading armour and speed; I suspect that an evolved FFS1/FFS2 
battleship design would probably be about 4G rather than 6. This does leave
a battlecruiser niche (6G but less armour), but I'm not sure the IN
would take it.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:20:56 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Ogres (was re: Grav Tank Tactics)

>> I also liked :
>>
>> "One Greatly Respected Enemy"
>
>        "Overt Gropos Regiment Exterminator"?
>        "Openly Graphic Regional Eliminator"?


Official Government Reform Enforcer

  "Unit 1138 to Command.  Small arms fire detected in
   grid Bravo 27.  Would you like them smashed, diced,
   or fried?"

  "Negative 1138, they are potential tax paying lifeforms."
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:29:29 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

At 08:26 AM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes:
>
>>         Ummm....  None of the three of them look like they have ever played
>> before.  Body postures, etc....
>
>Wow!  I didn't realize we had a veteran grav-ball player on the list! :^)

        I try not to mention it, because the MIB gets cranky at me about
"waking up" the occupants of this utterly unremarkable blue-green ball of
rock.  =)

>So, help me fix them.  How *should* they be posed?
>
>        - Mark C.
>
        Well, the two guys in the back are obviously *completely*
destabilized....  the red player on the right facially looks surprised to be
playing...  "<snore> >SLAM!<  Eh?  Wha?  How the hell did I wind up >WHAM!<
..face first against the wall of a grav ball court? <whimper>"
        
        You mentioned in mail that the idea was to make the two red players
look like they had been shoulder/ checked out of the way...  Ok, but "comic
book" it...  rotate the red player on the left to face inwards, and bring
him forwards towards the blue player so it looks like the hit was more
recent...  The guy on the right...  he just looks so *lost*...  not sure how
to fix him.

        Maybe make him look like he is in pursuit of the blue team player...
They all ought to be wearing goggles and soccer-goalie-style fingerless
gloves...  Make the facial expression on the blue team player to communicate
aggression...  "You better be jumpin' aside, son, or you'll be in pain when
I'm done..."  ...  right now he looks like he's terrified...  "Omigod...  if
I even *touch* that thing they'll cream me!"....

        Just the humble opinions from the guy who played on the winning team
at the Denebian Freestyle Open Invitational...  Hmmm, better get my black
Raybans on...

        --Michel


        
        
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:39:22 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Ship Classes

Bruce Allan MacIntosh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From a naval historian's standpoint, that's a coke-on-the-keyboard
line. "Oh, and some armour if it fits" is the best summary of the
Fisher school of battlecruiser design I've ever heard...

Later variants that don't cap armour and handle it in the weird way HG 
does make a "battlecruiser" concept more viable, since large ships are
often trading armour and speed; I suspect that an evolved FFS1/FFS2 
battleship design would probably be about 4G rather than 6. This does leave
a battlecruiser niche (6G but less armour), but I'm not sure the IN
would take it.
>>>>>>>>>>
I've found that at TL12 you *do* have to trade armor for speed - or at least
agility. Power plants take up so much room that high agility plus an
energy-hog weapon will run you out of hull space before you hang the
armor plates on it.

As tech levels rise, this becomes less and less of a problem - at TL 14+
or so, the max armor max agility battleship is less of a problem. Thus,
as it should be, increases in tech level lead to serious changes in
ship design philosophies. Unless, of course, a hidebound naval
leadership kept building ship classes the old way because it was
familiar, whether or not new technical opportunities made these older
design ideas efficient or not.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:41:10 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

>--Clif
>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>Spokescartoon/Mascot.


 That's actually a pretty cool idea I think.  Pages could even have a
"Ditzie Approved" (or maybe Ditzie Targeted >=) logo on them....

All those in favor, say "Aye!"


Jesse - "Aye!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:49:03 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

At 09:41 AM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>--Clif
>>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>
>
> That's actually a pretty cool idea I think.  Pages could even have a
>"Ditzie Approved" (or maybe Ditzie Targeted >=) logo on them....
>
>All those in favor, say "Aye!"
>
>
>Jesse - "Aye!"
>
        More like "AIEEEEEEEEEE!"

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:42:49 -0400
From: Les_Howie@keane.com
Subject: [none]

Michel wrote:
>        So, after the explorers jump through hoops, what's the payback?
>1/100 of a percent of the GSP (Gross Stellar Product) of the system every
>year?  A BCr per fully surveyed world?  A round of applause and the primary
>named after them?

Why not use a "patent" model?  After filing a survey/planting a claim beacon the
owners have a period in which to file a full survey (1 year, 2 years , whatever
- -- depends upon raising capital).  Rules for a full survey are well defined (eh.
well, more on this later).

If you file the survey, you have a specified period in which to initiate
colonization.   If you colonize, you have specified rights (landing fees,
whatever) which can be used to establish income.  You may also license
additional rights from the UN -- which is, after all, a government, and so
probably will consider itself to have the "real" ownership of the property in
question.

The real model is that the explorers come home, file a claim, and then find a
big corporation to sell it to at a marginal profit.  (Look at Babylon 5 --
Planetary Explorations closed in on the easy wins, but there were independents
who took bigger risks, but had someone to sell the results to)

Why?  Lawyers.  Government defined rights mean that the big corporations can
squeeze in and "examine" your claim, and get some judge to find out that your
claim is "defaulted".

OTOH, you will also have claim jumpers, squatters, and all manner of rif-raf
trying to get in and get the goods on your world.

My understanding of the basic rules of traveller economics is that the players
will always be "on the edge" and "just scraping by" -- with just enough chance
of success to keep them trying for the next big one.

So the main result for "smart" players will be selling the discovery rights to a
major corporation, including a contract on the survey.  For "stubborn" players
(is there another kind) we get a squeeze at home, claim jumpers in the field, a
dim hope of ill defined payoff, maybe a few bucks in backing from a fringe group
that wants a world to settle on, and hey --- we got an adventure.

My thought for your Mileau, Michel, for what it is worth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:53:13 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)

>>>>
I agree with the idea of dreanoughts being multi-role battleships,
so a dreadnought battlecruiser should be J6, 6G, meson T, lots of
lasers and missiles, fully streamlined, fuel scoops, fighters,
assault battalions, cargo. Oh, and some armour if it fits.

Phil Kitching
>>>>
Hold on a moment here!
The whole Dreadnought concept was a streamlining of roles and weapons
systems.  Prior to the ship called HMS Dreadnought, battleships had a
wide variety of weaponry of various sizes, as well as dozens of roles
they were supposed to play.  This made spotting the fall of shot
difficult and made for supply problems and such.  The beauty of the
Dreadnought concept is that it had one size of big guns, one size of
medium guns, and no other significant guns (significant in the sense of
shoot at another ship).  It was not cluttered with a dozen different
things it was supposed to do.  It had two roles, one being to destroy
enemy ships, and the other being to threaten to destroy enemy ships (the
second role is for "peace time" of course).  HMS Dreadnought was a truly
revolutionary design rather than evolutionary.
In keeping with this tradition, Traveller Dreadnought class ships would
NOT have large marine detachments (some for internal security of
course), would NOT have large fighter groups (some shuttles and small
craft of course, and perhaps a few fighters for picket duty, but
probably not fighters at all).  Traveller Dreadnoughts WOULD have
massive armor (as much as you can put on a non-asteroid ship of the TL),
6g, 6 agility, Jump-4, the biggest spinal mount you can get at the tech
level (two or three if using FF&S), a fair number of 100dT bay weapons,
and probably a smattering of laser turret batteries (for anti-missile
work).
Dreadnoughts are pretty much combat only ships.  Battleships on the
other hand would likely have a bit of everything, and thus might be a
bit bigger, but definitely not any more capable in combat than a
Dreadnought.  If the Battleship was not larger than the Dreadnought, it
would probably not be quite a match for the Dreadnought (close but no
cigar - as the saying goes).
Ok, this started out a bit in flame mode, but perhaps some more
discussion of the roles is appropriate.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #314
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #315</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B>
Date:	3/19/99 11:15:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 315



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Keyboard Solution
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Grav Ball T-Shirts
Re: Keyboard Solution
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Keyboard Solution
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Poser 3
Type S Scout

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:56:29 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

AYE!!!

JimC

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:41:10 -0800 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
writes:
>
>>--Clif
>>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>
>
> That's actually a pretty cool idea I think.  Pages could even have a
>"Ditzie Approved" (or maybe Ditzie Targeted >=) logo on them....
>
>All those in favor, say "Aye!"
>
>
>Jesse - "Aye!"
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:12:26 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: Keyboard Solution

	For all you guys who spew coffee, tea, or other liquids all over
your workstations while reading the TML, here's a partial solution for you:

	http://www2.inpace.com/flexi.html

	Regards,

	Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:16:30 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Ahhh...another Poser fan I see.  Cool...

Gee, that make three of us here....

> I agree about the two players in the back...not optimal poses.
> If I get any spare time this week, I'll try to come up with some
> alternate poses for the background players.



- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:19:21 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Grav Ball T-Shirts

>One last note:  How hard would it be to make one of the players be a 
>Vargr or an Aslan?

Hmm...I make the rounds of the Poser web ring fairly often, and I haven't
seen any furry conversions.

Take some custom work.

For those who don't know about the 3-D human model software Poser, check out 
http://www.poserforum.com/


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:23:09 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Solution

COOL!!!
Jesse




> For all you guys who spew coffee, tea, or other liquids all over
>your workstations while reading the TML, here's a partial solution for you:
>
> http://www2.inpace.com/flexi.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:22:06 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

I vote for the younger version, aye.  But I'd like to see the young one
holding the weapon that the older version has.  Could the girls swap, here?
And how about a few freckles?




= Visit the Subsidized Merchant =
      http://surf.to/traveller-trader

_________hosted_by____________
            www.downport.com
  A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:27:12 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

YIKES!!

I mean AYE!

(could Ditzie stop pointing the... **What the hell is that anyway???** at me
now?)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 9:51 AM
Subject: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot


>
>>--Clif
>>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>
>
> That's actually a pretty cool idea I think.  Pages could even have a
>"Ditzie Approved" (or maybe Ditzie Targeted >=) logo on them....
>
>All those in favor, say "Aye!"
>
>
>Jesse - "Aye!"
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:28:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> There's a logo for ya!
> 
> 'Grav-ball players eat their dead'
> 
> In Bilindin, of course! (ducks into bunker)

There's always the rugby slogan for adaptation: "Give Blood -- Play
Gravball"

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:32:30 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Aye!  or "Ditzie-Tested" or "Put Through the Paces by Ditzie"

Or "Ditzie was here" with bullet holes and scorch marks .jpgs to put on your
site at random places.  (You could even put up some pictures of some NPCs
after you blew a hole in them with your .45 and scanned them in with a black
construction paper background.)

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 12:48 PM
Subject: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot


>
>>--Clif
>>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>
>
> That's actually a pretty cool idea I think.  Pages could even have a
>"Ditzie Approved" (or maybe Ditzie Targeted >=) logo on them....
>
>All those in favor, say "Aye!"
>
>
>Jesse - "Aye!"
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:36:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

I suppose I should make that caveat.  The motion is for the younger Ditzie.
Freckles...maybe.  What's everyone think?

Jesse

>I vote for the younger version, aye.  But I'd like to see the young one
>holding the weapon that the older version has.  Could the girls swap, here?
>And how about a few freckles?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:37:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Imagine if Jesse started making the big bucks with a Ditzie/Traveller
cartoon to suck in the Saturday morning crowd into the game!

Can you just hear her now?

"Eeeeeeeeaaaat Fweshette, youuuu Vargr-wargr!"

chik-chik BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

AhrwwrwrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRHHHHH!

Strong feminine heroines are big money these days...  (Besides, heroines is
highly addictive, I hear.)

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:38:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

>        More like "AIEEEEEEEEEE!"
>
>        --Michel


RIMCLMAO!

- --Clif
Who Would be Snorting Coke (the liquid kind) Had He Been Drinking Some When
He Read That....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:43:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Clicking on bullet hole or scorch mark would take you to the Official Ditze
Spofulam site.  This may be just the angle Traveller needs to appeal to the
masses, and Jesse, you certainly have the drawing ability for it.  WE CAN DO
THIS!

- --Clif
Onward Ditzian Soldiers!

- -----Original Message-----
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Cc: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot


>AYE!!!
>
>JimC
>
>On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:41:10 -0800 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
>writes:
>>
>>>--Clif
>>>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>>>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>>
>>
>> That's actually a pretty cool idea I think.  Pages could even have a
>>"Ditzie Approved" (or maybe Ditzie Targeted >=) logo on them....
>>
>>All those in favor, say "Aye!"
>>
>>
>>Jesse - "Aye!"
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:49:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Solution

Cool!

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: J. Alan Hatcher <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 1:17 PM
Subject: Keyboard Solution


> For all you guys who spew coffee, tea, or other liquids all over
>your workstations while reading the TML, here's a partial solution for you:
>
> http://www2.inpace.com/flexi.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:56:15 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Maybe the future has stick-on freckles as a girl's accessory?  That way, you
could have a freckled and a freckle-free version.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@clinic.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot


>I vote for the younger version, aye.  But I'd like to see the young one
>holding the weapon that the older version has.  Could the girls swap, here?
>And how about a few freckles?
>
>
>
>
>= Visit the Subsidized Merchant =
>      http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>
>_________hosted_by____________
>            www.downport.com
>  A domain for Traveller on the Web
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:59:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Why not ask Ian whether she has freckles or not?

I think she's perfect, as is.  I'd be a proud papa if she were MY daughter.

(Is that a skull hairband?)
- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot


>I suppose I should make that caveat.  The motion is for the younger Ditzie.
>Freckles...maybe.  What's everyone think?
>
>Jesse
>
>>I vote for the younger version, aye.  But I'd like to see the young one
>>holding the weapon that the older version has.  Could the girls swap,
here?
>>And how about a few freckles?
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:02:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

Jason, I love the slogan suggestions!  I'm archiving them all.  Keep
'em coming!

> One last note:  How hard would it be to make one of the players be a 
> Vargr or an Aslan?

I *think* I can do Varg'r.  Aslan could be a serious challenge.  I'll
give the Varg'r options a shot tonight and post the result if I get
something halfway decent.

Micheal Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes
(regarding figure poses):

> Well, the two guys in the back are obviously *completely*
> destabilized....  the red player on the right facially looks surprised
> to be playing...  "<snore> >SLAM!<  Eh?  Wha?  How the hell did I wind
> up >WHAM!< ..face first against the wall of a grav ball court? <whimper>"
>         
> You mentioned in mail that the idea was to make the two red players
> look like they had been shoulder/ checked out of the way...  Ok, but
> "comic book" it...  rotate the red player on the left to face inwards,
> and bring him forwards towards the blue player so it looks like the hit
> was more recent...  The guy on the right...  he just looks so
> *lost*...  not sure how to fix him.
> 
> Maybe make him look like he is in pursuit of the blue team player...
> They all ought to be wearing goggles and soccer-goalie-style fingerless
> gloves...  Make the facial expression on the blue team player to
> communicate aggression...  "You better be jumpin' aside, son, or you'll
> be in pain when I'm done..."  ...  right now he looks like he's
> terrified...  "Omigod...  if I even *touch* that thing they'll cream
> me!"....

Oh-*KAY*!!  This is *exactly* the kind of feedback I was hoping to
get.  Thanks, Michael.  I'll try to implement some of these changes
tonight.

Back to the salt mines (mutter, mutter, mutter...)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:02:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

I.E., a "bit" of the floor....

- --Clif


>It would be nice if part of the pic showed a hit of a floor far(?) below,
to
>give a sense of altitude.
>
>--Clif
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 11:16 AM
>Subject: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
>
>
>Great work!  Man, I can't wait until they're done!
>
>I do have some comments, though:
>
>On Postures, it might look better if the other team are trying to
>dive for the ball, too.  Or at least one of them.  While it looks
>like the main player had bowled the other two over, it doesn't carry
>that same zero-g feel to it.
>
>On Taglines, Above, how about:
>
>IISS 114th Explorers
>Regina Raiders
>
>...or something similar, based off of a subsector name.  Limiting
>oneself to a single system sounds like it's a little league set-up,
>and sectors are too big to sponsor anything more frequently than the
>occasional decade-based Imperial Grav-Ball Tournament.  Or if you're
>looking to put the Traveller name on it, try Trin's Travellers  :)
>
>On Taglines, Below, how about:
>
>First Win!
>
>>From AstroBurgers, a Proud Sponsor of the Spinward Marches team in
>the 1120 Imperial Grav-Ball Open
>
>We're Not Just First Contact Anymore...
>
>If You Can't Take The Heat, Stay Out Of The Corona
>
>The True "First Contact" Sport
>
>Survey This, Buddy!
>
>Grav-Ball: Sport Or Obsession
>
>The Stench You Smell Is Your Impending Defeat
>
>....
>
>One last note:  How hard would it be to make one of the players be a
>Vargr or an Aslan?
>
>Thanks,
>Jason
>
>==============================
>Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
>(512)458-7111 ext. 3375
>
>Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
>==============================
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:07:39 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

At 01:59 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>(Is that a skull hairband?)
>--Clif

        Yep.

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:00:19 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

<sweating profusely>

ummm, aye, yep, the younger one, yeah, with the bigger weapon, umm,
Ditz...errrrrr.....I mean, MIZ Ditzie, would you mind putting that down,
uh please, uh, at least point it over there, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh
deaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, no, not that trigger, NO! NOT THAT ONE!!!!   
AAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  DUCK!!!!!!!  

<clik>

WHAARRROOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

</sweating profusely>

I like the idea of a link graphic.  What about a Gif animation, mushroom
cloud maybe?

8^)

JimC

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:08:47 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Okay, now the question...

Just how DO you pronounce "Spofulam"?

Brannon

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:11:59 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

At 11:02 AM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Micheal Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes
>(regarding figure poses):

        It's Michel, please..  no "a".

        [Me being critical snipped]

>Oh-*KAY*!!  This is *exactly* the kind of feedback I was hoping to
>get.  Thanks, Michael.  I'll try to implement some of these changes
>tonight.

        Glad I could help!

>Back to the salt mines (mutter, mutter, mutter...)
>
>        - Mark C.
>
        BTW:  I like the SSG website...

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:14:54 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Poser 3

From the shopping website for the company:

        MetaCreations Poser 3
        Store special! $189.00 

        ...so much for me getting a copy...  damn....

        --Michel


 
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:17:50 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Type S Scout

  FWIW, the RAFM mini Type S (and hey, they do a nice Donosev...) is
29.5mm long, 17mm at its widest, and has three landing gear doors - two
2mm x 3mm ones centred 4.5mm off of the centerline (and 23.5mm from the
tip of the nose) and a half-sized door centred 9.5mm back from the nose
along the mid-line of the ship.

  In fact, they're probably nearly perfectly scaled for dropping onto
the re-released Space: 1999 Moonbase model set :)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #315
**********************************

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #316</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B>
Date:	3/19/99 1:56:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 316



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
Re: Poser 3
Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
re:  [Debate] Sir Renner 2 resp Solomani Sam
Re: Poser 3
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Poser 3
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Poser 3
Re: Poser 3
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules
Re: Poser 3
Re: Scout survey and Ditzie
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
re:Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: Poser 3
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:21:03 -0500
From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

I rarely say much on this list, but in this case I feel a need to speak
up.
PLEASE DON'T.  I beg of you....  I find it quite annoying....

John,
Pirate for hire.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:22:38 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

>(Is that a skull hairband?)
>--Clif


Absolutely.  Gleefully plagerized from Elmyra of Tiny Toons fame.


Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:22:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller

http://www.poserforum.com/viewed.cdk?galleryid=11

Wow!  Poser is pretty impressive!

- --Clif

P.S.:  The subject still applies...

"observing heavenly bodies"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:27:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

I could go there, but anyone know off the top of their heads what the system
requirements are?

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 2:23 PM
Subject: Poser 3


>>From the shopping website for the company:
>
>        MetaCreations Poser 3
>        Store special! $189.00
>
>        ...so much for me getting a copy...  damn....
>
>        --Michel
>
>
>
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
> ICQ # 31172292
> Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist,
> Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:37:41 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller

At 02:22 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>http://www.poserforum.com/viewed.cdk?galleryid=11
>
>Wow!  Poser is pretty impressive!
>
>--Clif
>
>P.S.:  The subject still applies...
>
>"observing heavenly bodies"
>

        Yeah, I'd *love* to get a copy...  This would be great for a Cp2020
project I am working on...

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:32:24 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: re:  [Debate] Sir Renner 2 resp Solomani Sam

My dear Sam, 

You seem to have misunderstood what I am suggesting.  I am not
suggesting democracy as the one and only answer to the current state of
the Imperium.  In fact, because of the communication delays inherent in
the governance of an interstellar political grouping democracy is one of
the least effective ways of governance for the Imperium.

The most invasive activity I am suggesting the Imperium do on
individual planets is to be more strict in enforcing the extrality zones
of starports.  Specifically, if a sophont comes into the starport, they
need to be immune from extradition as long as they have not committed an
Imperial crime.  This is what I mean by the right to vote with one's
feet.  Where reasoned persuasion come in is to convince planetary
governments not to restrict access to and from the starpot extrality
zone.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:37:31 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

Try shopping for Lightwave @ $1780.00.

Jesse


>>From the shopping website for the company:
>
>        MetaCreations Poser 3
>        Store special! $189.00 
>
>        ...so much for me getting a copy...  damn....
>
>        --Michel
>
>
> 
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
> ICQ # 31172292
> Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
> Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:38:27 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Better not let Ditzie hear you say that ;)
Jesse


>I rarely say much on this list, but in this case I feel a need to speak
>up.
>PLEASE DON'T.  I beg of you....  I find it quite annoying....
>
>John,
>Pirate for hire.
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:42:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

At 02:27 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I could go there, but anyone know off the top of their heads what the system
>requirements are?
>

        From the website (http://www.metacreations.com/):

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

Macintosh:
PPC Processor, 603 or above recommended 
System 7.6.1 or later 
16-bit color display, 24-bit recommended 
CD-ROM drive 
20MB available RAM for application, 32MB recommended 
80MB hard disk space minimum 


Windows:
IBM PC compatible, Pentium recommended
Microsoft Windows 95, Windows 98 or Windows NT v4 or later 
Color display, true color recommended
CD-ROM drive 
32MB of system memory (RAM) 
80MB hard disk space minimum 
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:45:54 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> types:
>Jason, I love the slogan suggestions!  I'm archiving them all.  Keep
>'em coming!
> One last note:  How hard would it be to make one of the players be a 
>> Vargr or an Aslan?
>I *think* I can do Varg'r.  Aslan could be a serious challenge.  I'll
>give the Varg'r options a shot tonight and post the result if I get
>something halfway decent.

Hmm...Vargr...Standard figure, set the head not-visible, add a dog from the
library, make everything but the head not-visible.  That part's easy.

The digitgrade feet could probably be done the same way, bit more a pest to
scale and attach though.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:55:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Uh, okay, because...?

- --Clif


>I rarely say much on this list, but in this case I feel a need to speak
>up.
>PLEASE DON'T.  I beg of you....  I find it quite annoying....
>
>John,
>Pirate for hire.
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:58:09 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

I could handle that..

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: Poser 3


>At 02:27 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>I could go there, but anyone know off the top of their heads what the
system
>>requirements are?
>>
>
>        From the website (http://www.metacreations.com/):
>
>SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
>
>Macintosh:
>PPC Processor, 603 or above recommended
>System 7.6.1 or later
>16-bit color display, 24-bit recommended
>CD-ROM drive
>20MB available RAM for application, 32MB recommended
>80MB hard disk space minimum
>
>
>Windows:
>IBM PC compatible, Pentium recommended
>Microsoft Windows 95, Windows 98 or Windows NT v4 or later
>Color display, true color recommended
>CD-ROM drive
>32MB of system memory (RAM)
>80MB hard disk space minimum
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
> ICQ # 31172292
> Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist,
> Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:07:01 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

At 02:58 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I could handle that..

        Yeah, me too...  but as I said, the sticker is a bit much for
playing...  it'd be different if I made my meals with it like Jesse...

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:43:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

At 08:59 PM 3/18/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???

My wife reads over my shoulder much of the time.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:53:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules

At 08:51 PM 3/18/99 -0900, Peter Newman wrote:

>GURPS Traveller
>Random Alcohol Establishment Encounter House Table 

We have a winner!

- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:26:53 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!  Stop it, you're killin' me!!  <oooooh, aching ribs!>

I WISH I was making enough to live off of, but alas, I pay my bills with a
regular job for a computer manufacturer.  Keep tryin' to get that winning
Lottery ticket, but no luck so far.

ObTrav:  Does FS, SayBOOM, or Gridlore make a machine for fixing Lottery
numbers?  :D   Some kind of gravimetric device to make the right #'d balls
drop into the little thingy?


Jesse




>At 02:58 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>I could handle that..
>
>        Yeah, me too...  but as I said, the sticker is a bit much for
>playing...  it'd be different if I made my meals with it like Jesse...
>
>        --Michel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:03:31 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Scout survey and Ditzie

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>Please say the Aurora Class Clipper is the Gazelle with the Scout grafted to
>the front....No offense, but I can't stand that ship (if that's the one).

Nope, that's a Covenant ship. The Aurora is a big Space 1999 Eagle :-)

Actually, it doesn't look like an Eagle, but it has the same modular
approach - Path of Tears has some Piccies. They're modular, Multi-role,
TL12 military vessels run by the RCES. Their fuel is all carried in a fuler
starship which skims...

>PMPP?.......Can't say as I remember seeing anything about that
>anywhere......

Pelvic Mounted Plasma ?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:38:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

 "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net> wrote:

>Okay, now the question...
>
>Just how DO you pronounce "Spofulam"?

*Exactly* how Ditzie tells you to.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:32:15 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Given Ditzie's aura of impending doom, how in the world will she ever become
>a woman?

I'm more concerned that she seems to be becoming an aspect of Elric of
Melnibone....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:11:03 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Ditzie has my vote on this!!!! When can we expect the graphic and what's
the criteria for use? Maybe an addition to the Traveller web-ring
graphic? 

Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> >--Clif
> >Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
> >Spokescartoon/Mascot.
> 
>  That's actually a pretty cool idea I think.  Pages could even have a
> "Ditzie Approved" (or maybe Ditzie Targeted >=) logo on them....
> 
> All those in favor, say "Aye!"
> 
> Jesse - "Aye!"

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:16:32 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

Elric with a man portable meson gun.

AAAIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  WE're doomed, thats
all, just plain doomed.

JimC

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:32:15 +0000 SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
writes:
>
>I'm more concerned that she seems to be becoming an aspect of Elric 
>of
>Melnibone....
>
>Dom

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:25:05 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

Michel,

One of the Brittish computer arts magazines (in fact I think it was
Computer Arts) had Poser 1 as a free give away on their attached disk.
I'll see if I can't dig out which issue since I think the had it posted
on their web site as well. It's nowhere near as powerful as Poser 3 but
kind of neat to play with for the price. Not to mention the magazine is
great all by itself.

Mike

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> 
> At 02:58 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >I could handle that..
> 
>         Yeah, me too...  but as I said, the sticker is a bit much for
> playing...  it'd be different if I made my meals with it like Jesse...
> 
>         --Michel
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:23:46 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

I've been hashing over ideas and haven't decided what it should look like
yet.  I'll keep you posted :D

Jesse



>Ditzie has my vote on this!!!! When can we expect the graphic and what's
>the criteria for use? Maybe an addition to the Traveller web-ring
>graphic?
>
>Mike

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:58:11 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?


>Given Ditzie's aura of impending doom, how in the world will she ever
become
>a woman?


    Well, would you tell her that you are not going to sleep with her?

>--Clif
>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>Spokescartoon/Mascot.


    I have to agree with this, but then she does have a large slingshot
pointed at my head.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:23:07 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

>I vote for the younger version, aye.  But I'd like to see the young one
>holding the weapon that the older version has.  Could the girls swap, here?
>And how about a few freckles?


    I vote for the older version, but only because I see Ditzie as about 16
at some times & yet I can also see her at 8 at others.  Could she be a clone
of some sort?

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:45:51 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:23:07 -0700 "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
writes:
>    I vote for the older version, but only because I see Ditzie as 
>about 16
>at some times & yet I can also see her at 8 at others.  Could she be a 
>clone
>of some sort?
>
>Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart



Awww, jeez, we don't want to go
there.............................................

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:53:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

You're mistaken... She has put YOU in the slickshot.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Legate Legion <legate@futureone.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?


>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
>
>
>>Given Ditzie's aura of impending doom, how in the world will she ever
>become
>>a woman?
>
>
>    Well, would you tell her that you are not going to sleep with her?
>
>>--Clif
>>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>
>
>    I have to agree with this, but then she does have a large slingshot
>pointed at my head.
>
>Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
>ICQ # 8973001
>legate@futureone.com
>http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm
>
>"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
>the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
>mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of
>French porn." - Edmund Blackadder
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #316
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</HTML>
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 317



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Colonization
Re: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Ditzie Assisting SayBoom in Going Green
Re: Poser 3
Re: Ditzie Assisting SayBoom in Going Green
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: H&K G11
RE: Colonization
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Depot's 
Beanstalk Handwave
Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?
Re: Beanstalk Handwave
Re: Colonization
Re: Poser 3
Poser/Vargr,  was: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: Poser 3
KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: Poser 3
Re: Patent Model
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: Depot's
Re: Poser 3

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:59:23 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

>>    I vote for the older version, but only because I see Ditzie as
>>about 16
>>at some times & yet I can also see her at 8 at others.  Could she be a
>>clone
>>of some sort?


>Awww, jeez, we don't want to go
>there.............................................


    Well, the older version picture, reminds me of the wife when she was 16.
*weg*   Though the younger version reminds me of my daughter.

>JimC


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:06:11 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

>This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???

Somehow, with the attitudes often displayed on this list, I'm not wholly
surprised that female posters are few and far between.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:02:49 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Colonization

In a message dated 3/18/99 11:03:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<<        I presume that finding a planet isn't enough.  Doing a full
 geographic analysis is a minimum;  where are the fault lines and "ring of
 fire" that we *don't* want to build the Colony on.  A resource survey would
 probably be required, too.  Maybe even having a Nav becon set up and a bare
 piece of bedrock (Class E) to land on. >>

	I think that an expolration charter that would require the things you listed
would be good.  The explorer would then have to register the planet with the
UN "Land Office" or some such body.   I would then let the explorer have "full
settlement rights" to the planet which he could then do with what he would.
Usually this would involve selling to the highest bidder for whatever sum he
could get.   The UN general laws would still apply so the right-holder of the
planet could not do anything an earth-based nation could not (presumably no
slavery, cannabalistic-god cult etc).
	You may also impose settlement restrictions  to prevent "rich exploiters"
from outbidding everyone on all the good planets.  The government might
exclude a high bid, force the explorer to take a lower bid from a more
politically correct bidder, and if the government were at all just, compensate
the explorer for the difference between the high bid and accepted bid, but
don't hold your breath.   
	To prevent the rise of a "noble land-owning class"  the settlement charter
might also  have a time frame/homestead provision.  The person with the
settlement charter (original or puchased)  will have exlusive right to settle
the planet for a period of time after the claim registration (at least ten
years, no more than 50) and gains full permanent ownership of all land on the
planet that he has actually developed at the end of the charter--at which time
an elected local government takes over the administration of all undeveloped
land. The ownership provisions extend to anyone who buys a segment of land
from the charter holder.  There might be provisions for a direct UN take over
of public land if the population is too small or "politically incorrect".
	Finally, the UN armed forces have the right to seize any discovered but
unsettled world for "security reasons".  You may or may not have rules for a
"fair market value" payment being made to the charter holder, or perhaps not,
depending on how you view your government's respect for property rights.

		Dave Nelson 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:16:30 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)

>Kim Stanley Robinson Mars trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) has a
>falling beanstalk in it. It shows just how much damage it coud really
>cause. Simply because a beanstalk has to reach a geostationary orbit makes
>it unbelievably long, and if it is cut near it's upper end, it's far end
>will reach _very_ high velocity before impacting with the surface.

And this was the source for the "ballpark" figures I used in my post (which
I meant to disclaim; I did no real number crunching).

As has been implied or outright mentioned, the beanstalk doesn't go
"Straight up" from the surface, but is connected to a ballasting asteroid
or planetoid which is racing ahead of the point where the tether comes
down.

I also forgot to mention (and forgot!) that a beanstalk must be tethered at
the equator.  Think of Africa's economy after this was built.

Bruce has a valid point about the cheap reactionless thrusters making the
beanstalk economically ridiculous.  I can only handwave frantically around
this by saying that perhaps some planets have dangerous atmospheres, or
perhaps don't want the sound and air pollution associated with a lot of
ship traffic (cough), or maybe they want to collect big landing fees if the
ships avoid the up port (cough cough, *choke*, cough) {Excuse me} or
perhaps (cough) they have a personal taboo against not touching their own
planet (hack) but (choke) can do so through a surrogate (cough)
and...sorry, I'm choking on this handwave...gotta go (collapse in a fit).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:17:27 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> >This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???
> 
> Somehow, with the attitudes often displayed on this list, I'm not wholly
> surprised that female posters are few and far between.

Yes, I suppose so....   I had expected more because it was Sue Dollar who
pointed me at this list in the first place.

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:19:05 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Assisting SayBoom in Going Green

Kenji Wrote;
>> We're goanna catch an Accountant-wountant an an an have them assist us with
>> our enquiries.
>
>Are they actually warm-blooded?

Hey!  I resemble that remark!


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:21:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

At 12:26 PM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote:

>ObTrav:  Does FS, SayBOOM, or Gridlore make a machine for fixing Lottery
>numbers?  :D   Some kind of gravimetric device to make the right #'d balls
>drop into the little thingy?

How do you think Gridlore Technologies got started?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:39:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Assisting SayBoom in Going Green

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> Kenji Wrote;
> >> We're goanna catch an Accountant-wountant an an an have them assist us with
> >> our enquiries.
> >
> >Are they actually warm-blooded?
> 
> Hey!  I resemble that remark!

Shhhh.... unless you like chilly body-cavity probes.  

ISTR Famille Spofulam manufacturing a G-tank that involved smart-gel
administered through various nozzles -- no doubt these are being
reconfigured for this little experiment.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:41:10 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

LOL, boy my brain is something else.  SLICKSHOT it types instead of
slingshot.

- --Clif


>You're mistaken... She has put YOU in the slickshot.
>
>--Clif
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Legate Legion <legate@futureone.com>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 4:43 PM
>Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
>
>
>>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>>Subject: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
>>
>>
>>>Given Ditzie's aura of impending doom, how in the world will she ever
>>become
>>>a woman?
>>
>>
>>    Well, would you tell her that you are not going to sleep with her?
>>
>>>--Clif
>>>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>>>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>>
>>
>>    I have to agree with this, but then she does have a large slingshot
>>pointed at my head.
>>
>>Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
>>ICQ # 8973001
>>legate@futureone.com
>>http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm
>>
>>"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his
friends,
>>the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
>>mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
>of
>>French porn." - Edmund Blackadder
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:44:01 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

>On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>> >This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???
>>
>> Somehow, with the attitudes often displayed on this list, I'm not wholly
>> surprised that female posters are few and far between.
>
>Yes, I suppose so....   I had expected more because it was Sue Dollar who
>pointed me at this list in the first place.


And it's been a real looooong time since I've seen a post under her name.
:(

douglas

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:27:22 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: H&K G11

Clif wrote:

>>Are we talking about the P90 still?
>
>No, look at the subject.  "H&K G-11"

And when you read the messages in a digest, the subjects aren't
highlighted.

>>There's a difference between military grade propellants (that are
>>designed not to go off, even when shot) and My First Rocket.
>
>And if the difference is that military grade solid propellants can survive
>the shock of a drop from an aircraft while model rocket engine solid
>propellants protected by a tube of cardboard CANNOT, then THAT explains why
>"insensitive munitions ARE a big deal, especially when people are saying
>that Dynamit Nobel's ammo won't make it in the field.  Follow the thread,
>please.

Ah, bite me. I was down at Fort Halstead just the other day, and I can
assure you that insensitivity of munitions to attack isn't a big deal.
It's a standard test that anything we are buying or making has to pass.
I can't recall the last time something was rejected from our procurement
system for failing it.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:28:17 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Colonization

Michel Vaillancourt writes:
"So, after the explorers jump through hoops, what's the payback?
1/100 of a percent of the GSP (Gross Stellar Product) of the 
system every year?  A BCr per fully surveyed world?  A round of 
applause and the primary named after them?"

	How did/does crown land work? What deal did the Hudson's 
	Bay Company have? I cannot see handing out powers that 
	amount to government of the planet, but perhaps outright 
	ownership of a portion of land and a monopoly on imports 
	of, say, food; or exports of, say, radioactives. On the 
	other hand, maybe just collect some percentage of the GSP 
	for the first 50 years (this would encourage rapid 
	development). In fact, I expect that a time limit on 
	these deals might be useful. On the gripping hand, this 
	might leave some colonies to rot after the investors have
	finished their 50-years, if the colony has not developed 
	enough to take off on its own (maybe thats OK with the UN).

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:29:49 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Michel Vaillancourt writes:
"Unfortuantely during one crucial engagement, the missile racks turn
out to be loaded with paint rounds for target practice...."

	Always with the negative waves, Michel!

:)
Ian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:47:40 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

It's a mother-BEAUTIFUL tank!
:)
Jesse


>Michel Vaillancourt writes:
>"Unfortuantely during one crucial engagement, the missile racks turn
>out to be loaded with paint rounds for target practice...."
>
> Always with the negative waves, Michel!
>
>:)
>Ian
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:51:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
Subject: Depot's 

What makes up a depot, what can be found there. What sort of system
defenses are present. 

Chris T
The impossible is possible
if you've willing to risk
all for it 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:08:43 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Beanstalk Handwave

Perhaps smuggling is a big concern.  After all, think of all the little
cubby-holes a ship has.  The solution? A beanstalk!  Now all cargo has to be
off-loaded at the high point, clear customs, then down to the surface.  This
also keeps local COACC people happy- anything in the atmosphere is either
(friendly) military or a hostile- no worries about overflights of sensitive
areas.  Admittedly, this handwave ignores the economic aspects of
contra-grav, but a society with a high enough law level might approve.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:09:43 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Any Phoenix-area gamers?

So, are you guys looking for any other players?  What system are you
currently using?

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:30:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Beanstalk Handwave

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Damien Fox wrote:

> Perhaps smuggling is a big concern.  After all, think of all the little
> cubby-holes a ship has.  The solution? A beanstalk!  Now all cargo has to be
> off-loaded at the high point, clear customs, then down to the surface.  This
> also keeps local COACC people happy- anything in the atmosphere is either
> (friendly) military or a hostile- no worries about overflights of sensitive
> areas.  Admittedly, this handwave ignores the economic aspects of
> contra-grav, but a society with a high enough law level might approve.

True on one hand, yet if you had contragrav, you could get the same effect
by simply mandating that all cargo must be offloaded at the high port, and
only customs-run shuttles may transport cargo to the surface (for a fee
naturally!). It seems there would be no difference in the effort required
to offload a cargo, search it, and then load it onto a beanstalk capsule,
compared with the same procedure followed by loading it into a shuttle.

So anything in the atmosphere is either government (presumably with a
transmitter to prove it) or an illegal/hostile (shoot to kill).

Naturally, it seems obvious that this would be inconvenient for shipping
and may affect the attractiveness of your world for trade.

YMMV.

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:00:54 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Colonization

Just a couple of quick notes on this topic.

1.  I could make up a long list of great explorers who died penniless.  It's
not what you discover, it's how efficiently it is developed/exploited.

2.  For some fictional input, check out Jerry Pournelle's books.  He set's
them in the relatively near future, like you are planning, and he goes into
some depth on the economics and politics involved on colonization.

Hope this helps.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:18:12 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Try shopping for Lightwave @ $1780.00.

Jesse you forgot to tell them that is the starting price.

Like Adobe's Photoshop it's ok out of the box,
but it doesn't rock until you start adding plugins...

Ob Trav kinda: I didn't reply to the gent who was thinking of starting

a trav server. I one word do it. One of these days I'll have my web
page done and I'll need a place for it.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:33:44 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Poser/Vargr,  was: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Hmm...Vargr...Standard figure, set the head not-visible, add a dog from the
> library, make everything but the head not-visible.  That part's easy.

Have you found a mesh that looks good yet? I was thinking ofusing the stock
dogs head. But I haven't tried to build a morph
target for it yet.

> The digitgrade feet could probably be done the same way, bit more a pest to
> scale and attach though.

Easy if your going to do it wearing shoes. Lengthen the foot and shorten
the calf and thigh.

The tail is going tobe the other hard part.


- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:37:35 -0700
From: Gordon Horne <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

>Michel wrote<
>From the shopping website for the company:
>
>        MetaCreations Poser 3
>        Store special! $189.00
>
>        ...so much for me getting a copy...  damn....

Don't know if it's still available, but in the fall i picked up the
MetaCreations 3D pack: Bryce 3D, Poser 3, Painter 3D, Ray Dream for under
CDN$400.00

  g

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:36:23 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

OK, I'll stop posting these messages every time after this one.  Check back
every couple of days as I continue to have fun ideas for Ditzie pictures
(plus she's got a Fusion Gun pointed at my head so I don't really have a
choice :)

Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:19:40 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

Gordon Horne wrote:

> >Michel wrote<
> >From the shopping website for the company:
> >
> >        MetaCreations Poser 3
> >        Store special! $189.00
> >
> >        ...so much for me getting a copy...  damn....
>
> Don't know if it's still available, but in the fall i picked up the
> MetaCreations 3D pack: Bryce 3D, Poser 3, Painter 3D, Ray Dream for under
> CDN$400.00

What did you think of Painter 3D.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 20:26:45 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Patent Model

On 03/19/99 at 01:42 PM,  Les_Howie@keane.com said:

>Michel wrote:
>>        So, after the explorers jump through hoops, what's the payback?
>>1/100 of a percent of the GSP (Gross Stellar Product) of the system every
>>year?  A BCr per fully surveyed world?  A round of applause and the primary
>>named after them?

>Why not use a "patent" model?  After filing a survey/planting a claim
>beacon the owners have a period in which to file a full survey (1
>year, 2 years , whatever -- depends upon raising capital).  Rules for
>a full survey are well defined (eh. well, more on this later).

Excellent idea!

<major snip>

Now, let's say you have competing governments in the area.  You
could very well have rival claims not only by groups within one
government, but groups among several governments.  Working this sort
of thing out would be a nautral for diplomats...*and* gunboats.  And
PC's mixed into the middle of it all. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:42:52 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

Ok, unfortunately I don't remeber the right person's name and I just
cleared my message folders but how about about a Ditzie "t" shirt. If we
don't have some one on the list that has access I know several screen
printers that I can get prices from (assuming Jesse agrees), I'd
propose  the cost plus something to support the currently reigning
Premier Traveller Artist. We have to keep this guy in beer!

Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> OK, I'll stop posting these messages every time after this one.  Check back
> every couple of days as I continue to have fun ideas for Ditzie pictures
> (plus she's got a Fusion Gun pointed at my head so I don't really have a
> choice :)
> 
> Jesse
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:56:27 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Depot's

>What makes up a depot, what can be found there. What sort of system
>defenses are present.

Think everything needed to outfit a sizable battleforce.  As such it would
have to be well defended.  I'd guess the a lot of thier locataions are
carefully guardes secrets.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:09:41 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

>> Try shopping for Lightwave @ $1780.00.
>
>Jesse you forgot to tell them that is the starting price.

He also didn't mention the price of <gulp> upgrades.  One of these days I
need to get upgrades for Poser, Bryce, Photoshop, Infini-D and a couple
others.  Need to look into Infini-D one of these days and see what they've
added to it.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #317
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 20 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 318



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: Depot's[Long]
Re: Depot's[Long]
OT Painter 3D
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Web Site status
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Cardboard Heroes
RE: Colonization
Heading OT was Re: Poser 3
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Poser 3
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: Depot's[Long]
Re: A Walrus
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: New Ditzie "shots" :) (uh-oh)
Re: Poser 3
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_KB_warning_-_New_Ditzie_=22shots=22_:=29=7F?=
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
BayCon t-shirts??
Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System
Ship limits
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Ship limits
Re: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:06:32 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

>OK, I'll stop posting these messages every time after this one.  Check back
>every couple of days as I continue to have fun ideas for Ditzie pictures
>(plus she's got a Fusion Gun pointed at my head so I don't really have a
>choice :)


    Love the new pics, Jesse.  *weg*

>Jesse


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 21:33:37 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

On 03/19/99 at 08:06 PM,  "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said:

>>OK, I'll stop posting these messages every time after this one.  Check back
>>every couple of days as I continue to have fun ideas for Ditzie pictures
>>(plus she's got a Fusion Gun pointed at my head so I don't really have a
>>choice :)

>    Love the new pics, Jesse.  *weg*

Yes, they were good, but don't ditch the original.  I liked "of
legal age" Ditzie too.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:04:05 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Depot's[Long]

The Locations of the Depots arent secrets at all
there is one depot per sector. there are 19 Depots in all
1 per sector with one exception. Delphi has 2 depots.

 Depots provide the following 

Maintenance and Repair Services
Personnel Services
Training

The Depot systems are often used for gunnery training and various
squadron/fleet exercises
Each Depot typically maintains 3 fleets.
Training Fleet
Mothball Fleet
Security Fleet

The Depots generally encompass an entire star system.

This information is from the MT Rebellion Sourcebook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:09:59 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Depot's[Long]

>The Locations of the Depots arent secrets at all
>there is one depot per sector. there are 19 Depots in all
>1 per sector with one exception. Delphi has 2 depots.

But doesn't one of the TNE books mention a secret Depot?  Hmmm, on the
otherhand, I think we're talking about to different classes and I was
thinking of a lot smaller one, although I did vagely remember reading about
the Depot's you're talking about.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:49:43 -0700
From: Gordon Horne <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: OT Painter 3D

>Evyn asked...
>What did you think of Painter 3D.
>
Generally i like it. The import/export functions are quite robust; the
plug-ins are relatively stable; i've yet been unable to do something i
wanted to.

My two favourite features are the ability to have a 2D map and 3D mapped
model windows open at the same time and any modification in one
automatically applied to the other, and the ability to set brushes to
effect multiple channels simultaneously.

All in all it's powerful software for the price, especially in a package deal.

ObTravCommunity: We've had ship design contests for the gearheads and story
contests for the literary. Are there enough of us out there who try to take
photos of the non-existant to try a Traveller computer illustration
contest? We could give Jesse the first prize and fight amongst ourselves
for second and third.

    g

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:03:27 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
 writes:

>OK, I'll stop posting these messages every time after this one.  Check back
>every couple of days as I continue to have fun ideas for Ditzie pictures
>(plus she's got a Fusion Gun pointed at my head so I don't really have a
>choice :)

 While I've seen the new ones, I also liked the teen-aged one, and my browser
ate the cache file (#!@#! AOL). Is there any way of getting that picture
directly?

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:12:02 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Web Site status

All,
  Due to long-term computer problems just recently overcome, my site has
been languishing unchanged for three+ months. This should change soon*, as
I have a variant Type C in the works, as well as (finally) making a real
page for the Subsidized Liner I put up in December. A few other updates
as well, but nothing major yet. A facelift is also looking necessary, but
I'll need to fiddle with graphics for a bit before doing that.
 Keep an eye here for updates...

GypsyComet
http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

*"soon" as in "the next couple weeks"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:20:16 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

>>Who Thinks Little Ditzie should become the Official Traveller
>>Spokescartoon/Mascot.
>
> That's actually a pretty cool idea I think.  Pages could even have a
>"Ditzie Approved" (or maybe Ditzie Targeted >=) logo on them....

That's a large cross-hair sight with words "Targeted by Ditzie" at 30 degrees
in that blocky military font across it, OK ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:30:29 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

>> I vote for the older version, but only because I see Ditzie as
>>about 16
>>at some times & yet I can also see her at 8 at others.
>>Could she be a  clone of some sort?

>Awww, jeez, we don't want to go
>there.............................................

Yes, let's.

Who has met Matt Howarth's Carolines ?

Frankly I always saw Ditzie as a young Caroline, and Uncle Hengie as Professor
Ed.

The Post Bros, Russ & Ron, are just so obviously her older brothers
:-)


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:38:30 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

>Never saw them, but I'm sure it's do-able.  If I were to do something like
>this, what is the size that the counters, cubes, whatever should be?

I'll send you a scan of an unfolded one if you like, Jesse.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:24:03 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Colonization

>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: RE: Colonization
...
>	How did/does crown land work? What deal did the Hudson's 
>	Bay Company have? /...

  The HBC would have had exclusive trading rights within the North-West -
the British Crown never claimed to own the land, I suspect. Certainly
monopoly trading companies were very popular with early modern European
governments, not least because they brought private capital into service
of State interests (which was a two-way street...).

  For most of the period Crown land would likely simply have been land
that wasn't held as private property (ignoring aboriginals here); IIRC,
nowadays Crown land is only rarely alienated (B.C. is a special case so
I'm not sure if that applies back east :> ).

  Perhaps someone could give us an Oz perspective?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:32:38 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Heading OT was Re: Poser 3

Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:

>        From the website (http://www.metacreations.com/):
>
>SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
>
>Macintosh:
>PPC Processor, 603 or above recommended
>System 7.6.1 or later
>16-bit color display, 24-bit recommended
>CD-ROM drive
>20MB available RAM for application, 32MB recommended
>80MB hard disk space minimum

While we're heading OT - I'mcurrently looking for a DTP package for my Mac.
Ideally, I'd look at Quark, but realistical I can't afford the 800 GBP
cost (sole personal rpg derived income to date 22.95 ;-) ). Now, I was
going to get PageMaker 6.5, but now I notice Adobe is rolling out InDesign.
So do I go for PageMaker (which will likely be reduced to clear) or plump
for InDesign? Answers probably best off list.

ObTrav - I want the DTP package for BITS work.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:39:12 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) write:

>>This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???
>
>Somehow, with the attitudes often displayed on this list, I'm not wholly
>surprised that female posters are few and far between.

Me neither.

For example, the testosterone level in the current Ditzie thread is getting
a bit high. The current 'Phwar, Shag That!' level of the discussion isn't
exactly conducive to female posters.

I know that there was at least one woman on the list, but I'm not sure if
she's still around: Suz Dollar.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:44:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com> wrote:

>He also didn't mention the price of <gulp> upgrades.  One of these days I
>need to get upgrades for Poser, Bryce, Photoshop, Infini-D and a couple
>others.  Need to look into Infini-D one of these days and see what they've
>added to it.

And that doesn't include the cost of upgrading the hardware to make the
software run as fast as the previous version.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:53:30 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

>Probably the whole
>thing would initiate with a discussion of plasma weapon design, followed
>by demonstrations of individual prowess with said weapons.  Ditzie would
>probably get rather excited by a guy who can really handle weapons well.
>Just dont let her blind side you, you might regret it.

Makes me think of Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 3(?) comparing scars with the
policewoman.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:16:04 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Depot's[Long]

There are Regency Calibration Points that are talked about
in Keepers of the Flame.
There are also Jumpstart Sites talked about in
Keepers of the Flame,
I dont have my copy handy, but one of things mentioned 
in the book was the Nemesis Class Cruiser.
A High Jump, heavy spinal mount ship, equipped with
a black globe, and very little secondary armarment.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:59:07 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A Walrus

Jeffrey Rowse wrote:

>>..."The rader for the Nimrod AEW.3 never worked."
>>
>It did so, too.  It just couldn't keep up with the constantly changing
>Requirements issued by the MoD - in fact, the whole thing was beter than the
>*original* spec called for, but MoD just kept changing things ("Oh, so you
>can do that as well now? In that case, add this...")

Not enough space in the airframe for the radar (or, more specifically,
the processing power required). 2 Billion UKP down the tubes...

ObTrav: And the biggest waste of money the Imperial Navy had was...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:43:29 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

PLEASE!  DO NOT go there!  Jesse might draw a picture of that!  Don't
encourage him!!  <must get image out of head>>  GGAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:50:18 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

is John anti-ditzie??!! <<fingers PGMP>> tsk tsk, I'd take ya out John, but I
know Ditzie will first.  Hey Jess!!  For BayCon, VFG can sell Ditzie T-shirts
hehe!!

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:33:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

At 05:36 PM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
>OK, I'll stop posting these messages every time after this one.  Check back
>every couple of days as I continue to have fun ideas for Ditzie pictures
>(plus she's got a Fusion Gun pointed at my head so I don't really have a
>choice :)

We hope that viewing these shots of our distinguished competition will make
everyone think twice before buying Famile Spofulam products.

Sir Arameth Gridlore
Gridlore Technologies
"At least our stuff is designed by sober adults."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:46:35 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: New Ditzie "shots" :) (uh-oh)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>:
: We hope that viewing these shots of our distinguished competition will
make
: everyone think twice before buying Famile Spofulam products.
:
: Sir Arameth Gridlore
: Gridlore Technologies
: "At least our stuff is designed by sober adults."




=:-o





       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:53:47 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Poser 3

It's pretty scary nowadays when you can easily spend twice as much money on
plug-ins and upgrades than you ever did on the original program.  Major
bummer.  That is however one of the reasons that I like Lightwave as
compared to 3dStudio Max.  The basic package is very powerful and the
plug-ins tend to cost less overall :)

Jesse




>>> Try shopping for Lightwave @ $1780.00.
>>
>>Jesse you forgot to tell them that is the starting price.
>
>He also didn't mention the price of <gulp> upgrades.  One of these days I
>need to get upgrades for Poser, Bryce, Photoshop, Infini-D and a couple
>others.  Need to look into Infini-D one of these days and see what they've
>added to it.
>
> Zane
>| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
>| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
>| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
>|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
>|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
>|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:08:23 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_KB_warning_-_New_Ditzie_=22shots=22_:=29=7F?=

Due to overwhelming support, I'll pst that shot back up.  Maybe I'll improve
it over the weekend between renders for "First In" and pre-production work
for "Starports".

Jesse

> While I've seen the new ones, I also liked the teen-aged one, and my
browser
>ate the cache file (#!@#! AOL). Is there any way of getting that picture
>directly?
>
>GypsyComet
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:10:13 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

That's one of the ideas I had >=D
Jesse


>That's a large cross-hair sight with words "Targeted by Ditzie" at 30
degrees
>in that blocky military font across it, OK ?
>
>Frankie
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:18:01 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: BayCon t-shirts??

That's an idea, but I'm not sure about licensing on that :)  After all, I
didn't create Ditzie the character, I just created the character drawing of
Ditzie.  Then there's the issue if it had "Traveller" on it or other
copyrighted materials.  Hmmmmmm............

Jesse




>is John anti-ditzie??!! <<fingers PGMP>> tsk tsk, I'd take ya out John, but
I
>know Ditzie will first.  Hey Jess!!  For BayCon, VFG can sell Ditzie
T-shirts
>hehe!!
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:15:12 -0800
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System

Does anyone that plays MT use the Lifeforce/Damage Points system? Lifeforce
was equal to ST+DX+EN; a lifeforce of 30 gave you a Hits Value of 4/7. If
you took 4 damage points you were inoperative and 7 would kill you.

We've been playing "mostly" MT, except this point. We've been playing where
dice are rolled for damage (like CT) the first hit came off of 1 stat... the
rest could be spread around as desired.

I have mixed feelings about the exceptional success and extra damage. I
liked the idea of getting more damage for a better hit, but I thought that
x8 damage was a bit extreme.

I was toying around with an idea of +1 die of damage for each number beyond
the target number. For example if you need 7+ to hit and you roll 9 you
would get +2 dice. MT system would double the dice. A roll of 15 would give
you +8 dice. MT would x8 the dice. It think a guass rifle doing 12 dice
damage is pretty good... I think 32 dice is a bit much.

What do you think? Other suggestions? What do you do in CT/MT?

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:27:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
Subject: Ship limits

What is the largest possible hull. Would a 10,000,000 ton battle tender be
possible. It would be open frame and unstreamlined, the perpose to carry a
complete fleet of riders and support craft. Useful for big battle but
useless for frontier patrol/piracy patrol. Comments etc?

Chris T
The impossible is possible
if you've willing to risk
all for it 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:34:13 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

In my own defense, I didn't start the testosterone part :)
Jesse

>For example, the testosterone level in the current Ditzie thread is getting
>a bit high. The current 'Phwar, Shag That!' level of the discussion isn't
>exactly conducive to female posters.
>Dom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:41:35 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ship limits

I think one of the more serious gear-heads (I just primarily do the visual
stuff :) would have to fully answer your question, but I've been playing
with Andy Akins' excellent FF&S v2 spreadsheet and have gone up to 10MDT.

Jesse


>What is the largest possible hull. Would a 10,000,000 ton battle tender be
>possible. It would be open frame and unstreamlined, the perpose to carry a
>complete fleet of riders and support craft. Useful for big battle but
>useless for frontier patrol/piracy patrol. Comments etc?
>
>Chris T
>The impossible is possible
>if you've willing to risk
>all for it
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:47:43 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports

At 06:55 pm 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Rob!
>> 
>> Time to expand your starport modules!
><snipped>
>
>Hey Rob,
>
>Where is the Beanstalk? I'dthink that there would be a lot of medium
and
>high tech worlds, in particular the high-pop ones that would use
some
>type of beanstalk rather than have multi-mega-ton star ships flying
over
>their heads.

	I'd rather have starships than a beanstalk ... but that's just my
evil terrorist-NPC mindset thinking about how nice it would be to be
able to lay a 40,000km long line of nuclear-equivalent destruction ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:08:10 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

At 09:13 am 3/15/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Evyn MacDude writes:
>>  
>> Depends on you target. Newer tankers are built like bricks.
>> 
>> Way back when I was young. I was ordered to board a tanker that
was
>> hit by a mine in the Persian Gulf. a small gash in the outer hull,
a
>> hairline crack in the inner, and a couple of stuck below decks
hatches.
>
>Ex-coast guard friend of mine pointed out a major reason why that
freighter was
>very difficult to sink -- if you take a cargo ship and fill it with
empty
>55-gallon drums, you're going to pretty much have to disintegrate it
to make it
>sink, since flooded cargo compartments will still float...

	ISTR reading somewhere that the Q-Ships of WWII used this. A Q-Ship
was an armed merchantman, masquerading as a unarmed merchantman in a
convoy. Idea was, Nazi raiders sneak in for a turkey shoot, and find
themselves wearing the feathers ...

	Anyway, take your average Liberty ship, fill the hold with ping-pong
balls, and tie down guns on the deck ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #318
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 20 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 319



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Beanstalks
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)
Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System
Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...
Re: Ship limits
Re: Ship limits
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :
Re: OT Painter 3D 
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :
Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System
FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual 
Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System
Ship Artists Association
Re: (OT reply to :)Ship Artists Association
The Green Berets
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: Beanstalks
Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: H&K G11

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:51:27 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks

At 01:48 pm 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:20 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
><<Cool sales pitch snipped>>
>>P.S. Remember that if the Tether is ever broken by natural forces
or
>>sabotage at the high anchor, the massive cable will wrap itself
three times
>>around the earth before the end hits.  That would be Bad.
>
>Three times around the earth?  You mean that the tether extends to a
>distance of ~75,000 miles?  I did not think that they reached that
high.

The "central" point has to be at geostationary orbit: 38,400km IIRC.
The tether is extended in *both* directions for balance ... But I
don't think that's three times around the earth. IIRC, the earth's
radius is around 40,000km? (Too lazy to look it up ... plus all my
references are in a warehouse somewhere.)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:07:16 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

At 10:32 pm 3/17/99 +1300, you wrote:
>
>><< And yes, it is possible to perform flight ops from a STOVL
carrier when
>> a CTOL carrier can't.
>> >>
>>
>>How? The Nimitz class CVN's are HUGE! Their freeboard is (I think
125' from
>>waterline to flight deck) and size makes them VERY stable. I would
think that
>>a 90,000 ton platform would be more weather resistant than an
Illustrious
>>class CVS that is only 15,000 tons (I think ?)... Matt what's her
tonnage?
>
>I'd guess it's because you don't _need_ a stable platform to land a
Harrier.

	Launch, maybe, but I'd be nervous as *hell* if I'm trying to
approach a deck that could come up and smash the hell out of me, then
drop away again as I go smoking over the side ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:41:46 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

At 07:52 pm 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On the other hand, I just got this ad...
>
>   Quality embroidered active wear is a great gift idea!
>*High Quality Custom embroidered active wear at great prices.
>*Custom Embroidered 100% Cotton Golf Shirt 19.00 ea.

	Your choice, but I'd beg you to boycott ANY company that employs
"spam" marketing. It's part of the cure for those jackasses. That,
and thorough complaints to postmasters and upstream ISPs. I think I'm
up to about 8 or 10 account deletions, three sites have fixed their
mail system, and one complaint got forwarded to legal for action ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:31:23 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

At 08:27 pm 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>So you're saying that with the DGP publications for MT that all I
would have
>to do is paraphrase what's there?

	Not quite. The DGP license granted by GDW did not in anyway strip
the DGP work of its copyright protection. So you can't just reword it
and distribute it. But it *did* explicitly reserve for GDW (and now
Marc Miller) the right to reuse the concepts. So *Marc* can
paraphrase what's there and distribute it, as the legitimate owner of
Traveller(R).
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:13:24 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

At 09:43 am 3/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Frank Pitt wrote:
>> Well, I'm going into a local badge manufacturer tomoorrow to see
how much
>> they'll charge to produce the Exploration Branch badges.

	We made up engineering patches in my squadron; wound up costing
about $4 apiece for an order of 100. The usual irreverent stuff: head
of a madman surrounded by the words "Is the satellite falling out of
the sky? No? Then SHUT UP!," plus the squadron and branch.

	Price usually depends on (a) number of colors, and (b) quantity.
This is assuming the store you're having them made at has one of
those computer-controlled embroidery machines.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:56:09 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Classes (was re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?)

At 01:37 pm 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Destroyer - Although it goes against cannon, this is probably
synonymous
>with escort. Not designed for action independent of a fleet, they
exist
>to screen the heavy ships from other light ships; freeing the heavy
>forces to engage and destroy enemy heavy forces.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I base my Destroyers on the idea that a TL 6 wet navy Destroyer
could,
>if lucky, take out a Battleship in one shot. Get in close, open up
with
>your torpedo tubes and hope you didn't get torn to scrap in the
process.

	Actually, that's exactly what destroyers were designed to PREVENT
... the original name was "Torpedo Boat Destroyers," and they were
intended to go after small torpedo boats which could, if lucky, take
out a battleship in one shot ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:27:00 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System

At 12:15 pm 3/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone that plays MT use the Lifeforce/Damage Points system?
Lifeforce
>was equal to ST+DX+EN; a lifeforce of 30 gave you a Hits Value of
4/7. If
>you took 4 damage points you were inoperative and 7 would kill you.

	I did and I really liked it. Made it fast and easy to play (as GM,
*I* kept track of damage, and just told the players "ouch! That
really hurt!" and the like). It modelled the way nobody really keep
track of how badly their hurt in the fight--it's afterwards you feel
the pain. That's when I rolled the actual damage.

	BTW, I don't think 7 meant you were dead, it just meant you were
inoperative: out of the fight. Once all the damage dice were rolled,
THEN you might be dead--unless high-tech medical was available.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:14:47 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball logo: 1st draft ready...

At 07:35 am 3/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>The lead players nose is still straight...he's either a rank newbie
or has 
>had lots of cosmetic surgery. Grav-ball's gonna be a contact sport,
and if
>they're not wearinh helmets and masks they're gonna look like the
average
>hockey or rugby player.
>
>There's a logo for ya!
>
>'Grav-ball players eat their dead'

	How about "Grav-Ball players eat YOUR dead!"
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:41:41 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Ship limits

>Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:27:47 +0000 (GMT)
>From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
>Subject: Ship limits
>
>What is the largest possible hull. Would a 10,000,000 ton battle tender be
>possible. It would be open frame and unstreamlined, the perpose to carry a
>complete fleet of riders and support craft. Useful for big battle but
>useless for frontier patrol/piracy patrol. Comments etc?
>

High Guard, 2d Ed, p. 15 says:

"The starships operated by the navies of the galaxy range in size from 100
to 1,000,000 tons and represent the most potent weapons available anywhere."

None of the other systems give a specific upper limit, but none of them
give statistics for anything larger than 1,000,000 dtons, either. You could
infer that vessels of more than 1Mdton are possible, but simply haven't
been built in the OTU.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:01:30 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Ship limits

>
> >What is the largest possible hull. Would a 10,000,000 ton battle tender be
> >possible. It would be open frame and unstreamlined, the perpose to carry a
> >complete fleet of riders and support craft. Useful for big battle but
> >useless for frontier patrol/piracy patrol. Comments etc?
> >
>
> High Guard, 2d Ed, p. 15 says:
>
> "The starships operated by the navies of the galaxy range in size from 100
> to 1,000,000 tons and represent the most potent weapons available anywhere."
>
> None of the other systems give a specific upper limit, but none of them
> give statistics for anything larger than 1,000,000 dtons, either. You could
> infer that vessels of more than 1Mdton are possible, but simply haven't
> been built in the OTU.

I think that eventually you get into a surface area problem ala square/cube
problem.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:32:39 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :

>    Love the new pics, Jesse.  *weg*

Please, please, somebody tell me what a weg is?  --S

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:50:44 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OT Painter 3D 

> >Evyn asked...
> >What did you think of Painter 3D.
> >
> Generally i like it. The import/export functions are quite robust; the
> plug-ins are relatively stable; i've yet been unable to do something i
> wanted to.
[ snip ]
I also like it, but ... It works well with RayDream and 3DS but not with Bryce 
or Poser. In particular, the Poser file format changed between Poser 2 and 
Poser 3 and the stuff you used to be able to do with Detailer and Poser 2 you 
can no longer do with Painter 3D and Poser 3. Hopefully they'll fix this.

Somebody else mentioned they were wondering what had changed about Infini-D - 
latest versions are much improved over 4.0 (ie it now works) but still no 
NURBS support, in particular, and in general there seem to be problems with 
the ray tracing engine (specifically, on anti-aliasing). For still-rendering I 
prefer RDS (of the low end packages - I don't have LightWave).

> ObTravCommunity: We've had ship design contests for the gearheads and story
> contests for the literary. Are there enough of us out there who try to take
> photos of the non-existant to try a Traveller computer illustration
> contest? We could give Jesse the first prize and fight amongst ourselves
> for second and third.
> 
Good idea. Maybe someone with a website might contribute a permanent gallery 
site? Also a place to share meshes?

M
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:49:19 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :

Guess I always assumed "Wide, Evil Grin" but someone correct me if I'm
wrong.....
Jesse



>>    Love the new pics, Jesse.  *weg*
>
>Please, please, somebody tell me what a weg is?  --S
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:56:08 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System

Dave,

I reread the Player's Manual, (pg 66, top of second column)
The number before the slash is inoperative, the number after the slash is
killed or destroyed.
So, 4 / 7 would be 4 points to inoperative, 7 points to kill.

Did you use the x2 for +2, x4 for +4 and x8 for +8 rule? What do you think
of adding damage dice instead of multiplying?

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> BTW, I don't think 7 meant you were dead, it just meant you were
>inoperative: out of the fight. Once all the damage dice were rolled,
>THEN you might be dead--unless high-tech medical was available.
>-- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
> Dave Golden

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:00:58 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual 

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
>
>We hope that viewing these shots of our distinguished competition will make
>everyone think twice before buying Famile Spofulam products.
>
>Sir Arameth Gridlore
>Gridlore Technologies
>"At least our stuff is designed by sober adults."

If you want a solution packaged to maximise total cost of ownership while
minimising achievment of mission or strategic objectives, go with Gridlore.

For the rest of your personal, corporate or system-wide security needs,
consider Famile Spofulam - a High Energy Team delivering High Energy
Solutions for a High Energy Universe.


Now, a word from one of our users about the weapon Ditzie the Elder is
holding ... the RAPPOTEUR man-portable emplaced fusion gun. Available soon
exclusivly through BITS' 101st Spaceborne.

"Famille Spofulam have some scary weapons: I know I wouldn't like to be
anywhere near it when it fires - I can imagine it going off, blinding
people looking towards it, destroying the area behind it and cutting a 15m
wide swathe of destruction along the 200m length, with another 18m radius
blast at the end... And everything on fire that was caught it the blast
areas. And it makes one hell of a noise."
Lance-Sergant Jonas Arbuthot, Ruie Fusiliers

Ian Whitchurch

Personal Assistant to Ms Ditzammer Spofulam, Executive Vice-President, High
Energy Solutions Division, Famile Spofulam

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:13:45 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System

I was wondering what everyone thought of the difference between in the
effect of armor in MT vs. G:T?

MT: Penetration is compared to rrmor rating in determining how much damage.
G:T: Armor rating (damage resistance) is subtracted from the damage rolled.

I prefer the MT task system... but am looking for something better for
damage determination. I'm looking for ideas to create some house rules.

Thanks,
Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:18:42 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Ship Artists Association

>> ObTravCommunity: We've had ship design contests for the gearheads and
story
>> contests for the literary. Are there enough of us out there who try to
take
>> photos of the non-existant to try a Traveller computer illustration
>> contest? We could give Jesse the first prize and fight amongst ourselves
>> for second and third.
>>
>Good idea. Maybe someone with a website might contribute a permanent
gallery
>site? Also a place to share meshes?
>
>M




There's already a very small library at Freelance Traveller, but I don't
know if Jeff would want to take on the added duties of something like this.
I'll think about it.  I've certainly got the space and bandwidth (both
"unlimited" with my Hosting Service), but I'm not sure if I can put out the
time necessary to keep the project going and updated.


I've thought about the idea of posting meshes in the past, but I have one
problem with it.  Over the last 3 1/2 months I've put a very large amount of
time (I've lost track of how many man-hours) in creating the meshes that are
shown on my site and in the upcoming SJG G:T books that I've done work for.
I've now got a library of 10 OTU ships and sub-craft, of varying levels of
complexity.  More will be coming in the near future and over the course of
the year based on my conversations with Loren about upcoming G:T books.  I
would have a serious problem with another artist useing my meshes that would
take away business from me, just like a writer would be upset if someone
took 100 pages of manuscript that they'd posted on their website and turned
it in to SJG as their own.

I think the only way to handle something like this is to have a rule set
about useage (just like the other public domain meshes out there for Star
Wars, Babylon 5, etc).  I would only be comfortable posting my meshes with
the following caveats:  1.Personal use only (exception later) and credit
must be given if used in a picture that's posted on the net  2.If it's for
commercial use, i.e. you're going to use it for pics that you're submitting
to one of the Traveller publishers, then I want a % of the profit.  I used
with permission a mesh from a non-Traveller modeler on the web, and I'm
going to give him 50% of the $ from the pictures that appear with that mesh
in it.  I'd expect a similar type of arrangement with other Traveller
modelers, but % would not necessarily have to be that high.

My Cr.02 worth of brain fodder.

Best Regards,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:44:19 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: (OT reply to :)Ship Artists Association

Jesse,

This is a general problem with the web and art IMHO. My wife and I have
struggled with putting her art on the net in a gallery, sales page for
quite a while, the problem is with the proliferation on high quality
printers and graphic programs out there anything published on the web
can, almost easily, be reproduced in acceptable quality.

That's not to say that everyone is a cheat. For the most part I think
people are honest, however instant gradification plays into the
equation.

Question: How can you tell if some one is using one of your meshes in a
commercial peice of art submitted to say, SJG? Once it's "covered" isn't
it hard to tell if it's yours, or one they built? 

Maybe a solution would be to offer them, on request,for a small fee,
along with the appropriate "contract" for a % if used comercially.
Another possibility is to only allow them to s select group or club,
again with the approriate contract in place. It's a real quandry, since
I know from the generous way you let us on the TML have access to your
work, that you are a generous person, however, your talent should really
be supported as well! (selfish motive here, I want to see more of it!!!)

Just my Cr.02 added to yours

Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 

> 
> I've thought about the idea of posting meshes in the past, but I have one
> problem with it.  Over the last 3 1/2 months I've put a very large amount of
> time (I've lost track of how many man-hours) in creating the meshes that are
> shown on my site and in the upcoming SJG G:T books that I've done work for.
> I've now got a library of 10 OTU ships and sub-craft, of varying levels of
> complexity.  More will be coming in the near future and over the course of
> the year based on my conversations with Loren about upcoming G:T books.  I
> would have a serious problem with another artist useing my meshes that would
> take away business from me, just like a writer would be upset if someone
> took 100 pages of manuscript that they'd posted on their website and turned
> it in to SJG as their own.
> 
> I think the only way to handle something like this is to have a rule set
> about useage (just like the other public domain meshes out there for Star
> Wars, Babylon 5, etc).  I would only be comfortable posting my meshes with
> the following caveats:  1.Personal use only (exception later) and credit
> must be given if used in a picture that's posted on the net  2.If it's for
> commercial use, i.e. you're going to use it for pics that you're submitting
> to one of the Traveller publishers, then I want a % of the profit.  I used
> with permission a mesh from a non-Traveller modeler on the web, and I'm
> going to give him 50% of the $ from the pictures that appear with that mesh
> in it.  I'd expect a similar type of arrangement with other Traveller
> modelers, but % would not necessarily have to be that high.
> 
> My Cr.02 worth of brain fodder.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Jesse

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:28:35 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: The Green Berets

Has anyone read Robin Moore's "The Green Berets".  If so, what did you think
about it?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:51:25 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

The next question is whether this extends to Marc Miller's subsequent
license holders (i.e. SJ Games) .  There's been some confusion as to
whether concepts from DGP are useable in G:T products.  My understanding
was that, because the operate under a license granted by the rights holder,
SJ Games should have the ability to use DGP concepts as you describe, but
others have said that DGP concepts are off limits.

What's the real answer?

- ----------
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD
Date: Saturday, 20 March, 1999 6:31 PM

At 08:27 pm 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>So you're saying that with the DGP publications for MT that all I
would have
>to do is paraphrase what's there?

	Not quite. The DGP license granted by GDW did not in anyway strip
the DGP work of its copyright protection. So you can't just reword it
and distribute it. But it *did* explicitly reserve for GDW (and now
Marc Miller) the right to reuse the concepts. So *Marc* can
paraphrase what's there and distribute it, as the legitimate owner of
Traveller(R).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:06:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Beanstalks

In mail you write:

> At 01:20 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
> <<Cool sales pitch snipped>>
>>P.S. Remember that if the Tether is ever broken by natural forces or
>>sabotage at the high anchor, the massive cable will wrap itself three ti=
> mes
>>around the earth before the end hits.  That would be Bad.
>
> Three times around the earth?  You mean that the tether extends to a
> distance of ~75,000 miles?  I did not think that they reached that high.

They have to reach all the way to geo-synchronous orbit. So they'd only
wrap around once. But due to variou effects, the end is gonna hit *hard*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:34:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie: Perpetual Virginity?

The policewoman was Rene Russo, a VERY muffinish older woman.

You can see her in "Tin Cup", "Let's Get Shorty", "Lethal Weapon 4",
"Outbreak", "Freejack", and "Buddy".  I think she would be perfect to play
008.  Unfortunately, someone ripped off elements of my incomplete 008
screenplay and put them in the last two Bond movies.  Rene Russo is a strong
feminine screen persona who deserves more leading roles.

- --Clif


>>Probably the whole
>>thing would initiate with a discussion of plasma weapon design, followed
>>by demonstrations of individual prowess with said weapons.  Ditzie would
>>probably get rather excited by a guy who can really handle weapons well.
>>Just dont let her blind side you, you might regret it.
>
>Makes me think of Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 3(?) comparing scars with the
>policewoman.
>
>Frankie
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:21:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

You could EASILY do a BIG Traveller comic, Jess.

(Please put the picture of the older Ditzie up...  you could call it a
computer-aided age-progression picture).

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:15:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: H&K G11

>Clif wrote:
>
>>>Are we talking about the P90 still?
>>
>>No, look at the subject.  "H&K G-11"
>
>And when you read the messages in a digest, the subjects aren't
>highlighted.

Oh, okay, I didn't know that.
>
>>>There's a difference between military grade propellants (that are
>>>designed not to go off, even when shot) and My First Rocket.
>>
>>And if the difference is that military grade solid propellants can survive
>>the shock of a drop from an aircraft while model rocket engine solid
>>propellants protected by a tube of cardboard CANNOT, then THAT explains
why
>>"insensitive munitions ARE a big deal, especially when people are saying
>>that Dynamit Nobel's ammo won't make it in the field.  Follow the thread,
>>please.
>
>Ah, bite me. I was down at Fort Halstead just the other day, and I can
>assure you that insensitivity of munitions to attack isn't a big deal.

What do you mean, "to attack"?

You don't seem to get it.  The only reason I'm even bringing up these ammo
tests is because SOMEONE ELSE was perpetuating the rumor that I ALSO thought
to be true until I did some reading--namely, that the caseless ammo wouldn't
make it in the field.  I merely returned with, "They tested it, and it makes
it."  Maybe the reason you don't think solid propellant surviving a drop
from an aircraft (I'm not talking about a drop with a parachute) is because
you had some of it hit you on the head?  Hmm?

>It's a standard test that anything we are buying or making has to pass.

And I'm only saying that it passed the test.  Go back and read the thread.

>I can't recall the last time something was rejected from our procurement
>system for failing it.

And I'm saying that there is no reason to reject it because of the ammo and
the soldiers who have tested the thing in the field LOVE it, but because it
isn't COLT, American soldiers probably won't get it.  That's all I'm
saying....

- --Clif

>
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt
>--
>Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
>My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
>for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #319
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 21 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 320



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: A Traveller Products CD (hey LKW)
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_KB_warning_-_New_Ditzie_=22shots=22_:=29=7F?=
Re: (OT reply to :)Ship Artists Association
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :
Re: FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual 
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :
Re: "Lost" Keith Brothers supplements - Status?
Re: The Green Berets
Re: FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual 
Re: Ship Classes
The Green Berets
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :
Why we Travel...
Re: OT Painter 3D
Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: A Walrus
Re: T4 - what to do
FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:24:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

I was thinking how great that would be, myself.

I'd like to see a comic, too.  I know some of you guys could come up with
some awesome Traveller-based stories...

Cartoon people in LightWave spaceships.  That would be cool.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)


>Ok, unfortunately I don't remeber the right person's name and I just
>cleared my message folders but how about about a Ditzie "t" shirt. If we
>don't have some one on the list that has access I know several screen
>printers that I can get prices from (assuming Jesse agrees), I'd
>propose  the cost plus something to support the currently reigning
>Premier Traveller Artist. We have to keep this guy in beer!
>
>Mike
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>
>> OK, I'll stop posting these messages every time after this one.  Check
back
>> every couple of days as I continue to have fun ideas for Ditzie pictures
>> (plus she's got a Fusion Gun pointed at my head so I don't really have a
>> choice :)
>>
>> Jesse
>> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>--
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:44:50 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD (hey LKW)

: The next question is whether this extends to Marc Miller's subsequent
: license holders (i.e. SJ Games) .  There's been some confusion as to
: whether concepts from DGP are useable in G:T products.  My
understanding
: was that, because the operate under a license granted by the rights
holder,
: SJ Games should have the ability to use DGP concepts as you describe,
but
: others have said that DGP concepts are off limits.
:
: What's the real answer?


Loren said that there are some parts of the plot line that are
forbidden, not specific company product info.  Maybe he would like to
clarify.  Loren?



       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:46:35 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_KB_warning_-_New_Ditzie_=22shots=22_:=29=7F?=

I think a "small" arms catalog with Ditzie commentary throughout would be a
GREAT pub, just like the JB 007 RPG's excellent "Q Manual", that had Q
commentary and some from other members of Q Branch.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)


>Due to overwhelming support, I'll pst that shot back up.  Maybe I'll
improve
>it over the weekend between renders for "First In" and pre-production work
>for "Starports".
>
>Jesse
>
>> While I've seen the new ones, I also liked the teen-aged one, and my
>browser
>>ate the cache file (#!@#! AOL). Is there any way of getting that picture
>>directly?
>>
>>GypsyComet
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:19:34 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: (OT reply to :)Ship Artists Association

Well, when you spend anywhere from five to fifty hours modelling something,
you tend to get a pretty good idea of EXACTLY what the geometry involved
looks like :)  Visually right off of the bat, that's all that you really
have to go off of.  Any piece of equipment that's yours and you use often
you can usually tell that it's yours because of that little tiny scratch
there from the time that...or the burn mark from....or the paint spray
from.....etc.  You get the idea.  In the case of the meshes, I can visually
pick up on little things like boolean artifacts, angles, etc.  There's also
a little trick you can do if the belligerant in question just kept being,
well, belligerant.  You can take them to court and have them provide "their"
mesh.  You can then zoom in to certain areas down to the submicron level and
show the jury the little "footprints" that you left.  Really all you need is
your name and a date with a surface color the same as the surrounding area.
This little footprint is barely bigger than a point (a point has no real
physical size and is infintesimally small) and would be virtually impossible
for someone to find unless they knew EXACTLY where it was (i.e. they were
you).  You could even do something like create the footprint, then do an
operation that clones that footprint object to every point present in your
geometry.  As an example, the lowly Scout I've done has 2,437 points WITHOUT
the landing gear, gear doors, turret, and external doors.  With all of it's
parts present, it has 11,544 points.  My Marava Far Trader on the other hand
has over 44,000 points in it.  You can see just what kind of a
needle-in-a-haystack that would be for someone who knew about this trick.
It's just really not worth it.  In the amount of time it would take someone
to check that many points, they could build about 10 of their OWN damn ships
:)

If I end up posting my meshes to the web, I'll have this sort of protection
in place.

As for your wife's flat art, there's at least one software maker that has a
program that can add a "watermark" to her images that is undectable to
someone who doesn't know they exist.  And, the only way to see that
watermark is with that program, so it's not like every punk on the 'net
could see it without some investment.  IIRC, even if they have that software
to see it, they still can't alter it.  You've then got your proof when you
take their a@@'es to court :)

Best,
Jesse



>Jesse,
>
>This is a general problem with the web and art IMHO. My wife and I have
>struggled with putting her art on the net in a gallery, sales page for
>quite a while, the problem is with the proliferation on high quality
>printers and graphic programs out there anything published on the web
>can, almost easily, be reproduced in acceptable quality.
>
>That's not to say that everyone is a cheat. For the most part I think
>people are honest, however instant gradification plays into the
>equation.
>
>Question: How can you tell if some one is using one of your meshes in a
>commercial peice of art submitted to say, SJG? Once it's "covered" isn't
>it hard to tell if it's yours, or one they built?
>
>Maybe a solution would be to offer them, on request,for a small fee,
>along with the appropriate "contract" for a % if used comercially.
>Another possibility is to only allow them to s select group or club,
>again with the approriate contract in place. It's a real quandry, since
>I know from the generous way you let us on the TML have access to your
>work, that you are a generous person, however, your talent should really
>be supported as well! (selfish motive here, I want to see more of it!!!)
>
>Just my Cr.02 added to yours
>
>Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:55:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :

Is your last name Madewell? StevenA201@aol.com  ?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: StevenA201@aol.com <StevenA201@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :


>>    Love the new pics, Jesse.  *weg*
>
>Please, please, somebody tell me what a weg is?  --S
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:57:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual 

Ditzammer?  Cool name!  Makes her seem more like royalty, rather than some
silly "Ditzie".

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 9:06 PM
Subject: FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual


>
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>>Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
>>
>>We hope that viewing these shots of our distinguished competition will
make
>>everyone think twice before buying Famile Spofulam products.
>>
>>Sir Arameth Gridlore
>>Gridlore Technologies
>>"At least our stuff is designed by sober adults."
>
>If you want a solution packaged to maximise total cost of ownership while
>minimising achievment of mission or strategic objectives, go with Gridlore.
>
>For the rest of your personal, corporate or system-wide security needs,
>consider Famile Spofulam - a High Energy Team delivering High Energy
>Solutions for a High Energy Universe.
>
>
>Now, a word from one of our users about the weapon Ditzie the Elder is
>holding ... the RAPPOTEUR man-portable emplaced fusion gun. Available soon
>exclusivly through BITS' 101st Spaceborne.
>
>"Famille Spofulam have some scary weapons: I know I wouldn't like to be
>anywhere near it when it fires - I can imagine it going off, blinding
>people looking towards it, destroying the area behind it and cutting a 15m
>wide swathe of destruction along the 200m length, with another 18m radius
>blast at the end... And everything on fire that was caught it the blast
>areas. And it makes one hell of a noise."
>Lance-Sergant Jonas Arbuthot, Ruie Fusiliers
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
>Personal Assistant to Ms Ditzammer Spofulam, Executive Vice-President, High
>Energy Solutions Division, Famile Spofulam
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:36:53 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :

From: StevenA201@aol.com <StevenA201@aol.com>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :


>>    Love the new pics, Jesse.  *weg*
>
>Please, please, somebody tell me what a weg is?  --S


    A weg is something you wear when you are bald?
    Wide Evil Grin.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:35:48 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: "Lost" Keith Brothers supplements - Status?

At 03:32 PM 3/8/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Has anyone heard a status on the "lost"
>Keith Brothers' Traveller supplements
>which was supposed to have been published
>awhile back?
>
>It's now March and I haven't received
>a thing for my $100. Regardless of the
>desireability for quality, I am now
>becoming rather irritated.

Sorry for the delay, but I am still working on the supplements. At present,
I am not even hazarding a guess as to when I will be shipping them. I will
only say that this has turned out to be a very time consuming project, but
that I do manage to work on it at least a couple of hours most every day.

Cordially,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:38:29 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

I liked it better than the movie, and I thought it was well written
I didnt realize Robin Moore also wrote "The French Connection"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:30:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual 

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Ian or Katts wrote:

> Personal Assistant to Ms Ditzammer Spofulam, Executive Vice-President, High
> Energy Solutions Division, Famile Spofulam

Ah, I remember way back when she was just a wee tyke working in
Compliance, writing memos to Ungle Hengie and asking for more yellow
pills.  How she's grown!

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:17:51 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Ship Classes

>        Actually, that's exactly what destroyers were designed to PREVENT
>... the original name was "Torpedo Boat Destroyers," and they were
>intended to go after small torpedo boats which could, if lucky, take
>out a battleship in one shot ...

Technically true, but they rapidly were armed with torpedoes, and 
assumed the torpedo boat ecological niche themselves with the 
intention that they would both attack enemy capital ships with 
torps and protect friendlies against similar attack. (cf the 
employment of destroyers at Jutland.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:30:24 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: The Green Berets

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> types:
>Has anyone read Robin Moore's "The Green Berets".  If so, what did you think
>about it?

Read it years ago.  May still have a dog eared copy I'm not going to part with.
Liked it.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. 
That's our story and we're sticking to it.  
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:53:20 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :

>>Please, please, somebody tell me what a weg is?  --S
>
>Guess I always assumed "Wide, Evil Grin" but someone correct me if I'm
>wrong.....
>

Naw, it's the initials of West End Games


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:41:11 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Why we Travel...

Ok, it time for the Liberal arts side of Trav.

Why do we Travel, become Travellers persay...

I once had a Docter running from his ex wife.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:50:57 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: OT Painter 3D

Mark Watson wrote:

> I also like it, but ... It works well with RayDream and 3DS but not with Bryce
> or Poser. In particular, the Poser file format changed between Poser 2 and
> Poser 3 and the stuff you used to be able to do with Detailer and Poser 2 you
> can no longer do with Painter 3D and Poser 3. Hopefully they'll fix this.

Bummer, but I'm still looking at it.

> > ObTravCommunity: We've had ship design contests for the gearheads and story
> > contests for the literary. Are there enough of us out there who try to take
> > photos of the non-existant to try a Traveller computer illustration
> > contest? We could give Jesse the first prize and fight amongst ourselves
> > for second and third.
> >
> Good idea. Maybe someone with a website might contribute a permanent gallery
> site? Also a place to share meshes?

Ok, Jesse you win...

The site is a good idea.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:26:38 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

> >I didn't say it wasn't.  Just FTR, an Oriflamme TL9 grav tank and grav tank
> >destroyer could both take it and/or come out reasonably well on the frontal
> >arcs (AV 204 for both).  Side armor is going to be some bad damage and rear
> >and belly hits is going to be really bad juju.  Maybe I should do a TL9
tank
> >that would result in response to teh FS design...  ;-)
> 
> Ummm, it hurts more than 204. A lot more. More like damage 300 when firing
> KEAP, in fact.

Hmm... could u give me the stats for this beasty again?  Or point to the date
(or best yet digest #) where this was presented?  I seem to recall the pen
"factor" being 2 hundred something.  Was this the one presented in "ditzie
speak?"

> >Plus, Striker II (the source) indicates both have point defense capable
Fire
> >Control (-2 diff mods). 
> 
> Like I said earlier, I'd expect most TL9 and up AFVs to have integral point
> defense.

And that's where I put my foot in my mouth saying it wasn't probably needed by
anything other than perhaps a dedicated pd vehicle.  It largely stands against
conventional arty, but of course FS was left out of my ruminations.  ;-)
 
> The question is is TL9 fire control good enough to stop KEAP projectiles
> going at kilometers per second, or is it designed to stop ATGMs going at a
> fraction of this ?

Very good question.  Would depend on teh time, range and weapon system I would
think.  Course TL9 should be pretty advanced, though a phalanx type thing
might be required.  Something like the IVIS system immediately turning an
appropriate weapon system on target of an incoming doesn't seem preposterous
to me for TL 9.  YMMV.  Inside a certain range and there just isn't time to
react, though getting inside a sensors envelope by a system of comparable TL
might require some heavy explanation (and/or nailing more than one target,
before the delivery system gets destroyed by another grav tank).

> The original concept was to operate from a hull-down direct fire role,
> protected by anti-laser aeosols, and to pour fire into targets of
opportunity.
> 
> Most hi-tech weapon systems fire at or about a shot every 20 seconds.
> 
> The FS gauss gun is designed to put about 16 rounds out in that period.

Maybe in T4...in TNE's 5 second combat rounds, most good combat vehicles has a
SA5 *per fire action* (up to 5/round).  On a standard semi auto ROF, that'd be
4 shots in 20 seconds.  On full bore, it's 20 in that same period of time.

The CPR loading times in FF&S is one of the only things I was unsatisfied
with.  When I made up the M256 120mm smoothbore gun (the Rheinmetal-sp?) it
gave a loading time of 4 turns w/ mechanical loading assistance, which is way
off.  During TCGST (Tank Crewman Gunnery Skills Test), tankers are required to
load in 7 seconds for SABOT and HEAT rounds and 9 seconds for MPAT rounds in
air mode (requires flipping a switch on the top of the round) which is 1-2 TNE
combat rounds.  That includes the time to press the knee switch to open the
hydraulic ammo door and arming the main gun.  Now, i've done a sabot in 4.3
seconds and an MPAT Air inside 7 (IIRC on the MPAT).   Is this different in
FFS2?  I don't have my copy handy at the moment...

As a house rule, I had the FF&S derived # be the default in rounds and was
divided by the average of STR and AGL for the basic number of rounds.  Next
follows an attribute check (doesn't really have much to do w/ skill IMO, just
strength and coordination).  Outstanding success cuts by 1/2, success is
normal, failure is double, catastrophic means that (damaging the round,
releasing the propellant in the vehicle, etc etc).  

The above for Joe Genero would give 20/6 or rounded to 3 rounds or 15 seconds,
which is abysmal.  Oustanding success would let him get it done in 7 seconds
(inside 2 rounds).  Failure would mean he fumbled around gets in the pipe and
probably forgets to arm the gun (causing the TC to smack him when the gun
fails to fire and sends everyone in misfire checks).  Odds say Joe Genero is
either going to be a driver or hating life or he'll get stronger from
regularly hefting rounds and/or manually turning the turret 720 degrees
around.  ;-) 

> Finally, I think ortillery is over-rated. The atmosphere, cloud cover and
> sheer distance will strongly limit the effectivness of orbital fire support
> in my opinion.

>From lasers?  Given space combat ranges, the distance is small fries.  The
others could have an effect, but given the distance probably not a large
one...

> The other issue that has to be regarded in 'good wars' is the Imperial
> guidelines against making war in space.

Hmm?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:26:40 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> While I've seen the new ones, I also liked the teen-aged one, and my browser
>ate the cache file (#!@#! AOL). Is there any way of getting that picture
>directly?

On a Mac, drag the picture to the desktop from the browser window. On a PC,
right click on the image, and select save image. IE may do things
differently from Navigator 4.

And check Jesse is happy with you downloading them ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:46:13 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:


>>For example, the testosterone level in the current Ditzie thread is getting
>>a bit high. The current 'Phwar, Shag That!' level of the discussion isn't
>>exactly conducive to female posters.
>>Dom

>In my own defense, I didn't start the testosterone part :)
>Jesse

I know - but did you provoke it with the gorgeous piccies? ;-)

BTW, on licensing....

Roderick Darroch Elliot created Famille Spofulam. Ian took the ball and
developed Ditzie, and you're drawing her...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:30:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A Walrus

Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>It did so, too.  It just couldn't keep up with the constantly changing
>>Requirements issued by the MoD - in fact, the whole thing was beter than the
>>*original* spec called for, but MoD just kept changing things ("Oh, so you
>>can do that as well now? In that case, add this...")
>
>Not enough space in the airframe for the radar (or, more specifically,
>the processing power required). 2 Billion UKP down the tubes...


I saw a Project Management analysis of the project and it argued that once
the spec was fixed (about 12 months from the end) they were within 3 years
of completion. But at that point it was a political embarrassment.


>ObTrav: And the biggest waste of money the Imperial Navy had was...

Admiral Sanatocheev

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:43:56 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: T4 - what to do

>"Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I am a fairly new Traveller player and I am going to purchase some
>>supplementary material for T4.  I currently own only the basic T4 book.
>>Please let me know of 4 additional products you think are good buys (T4
>>material only).
>>
>>My preliminary thoughts were running along the line of:
>>Milieu 0 Campaign
>
>Yes - don't buy MO and First Survey Separately.
>
>>Starships

Do not, on any account, pay money for this.

Run, do not walk, run, to your web browser. Plug in a search for 'THUDDD'
(three Ds, no quotes). Go to the THUDDD web pages via Craig Berry's home page.

Download more ships than you could want for Milleau 0, ranging from
exploratory traders, to lo-tech SDBs for Pocket Empires, to the
Imelda-class yacht for the mega-rich.

Then go to Jesse's home page, 
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm and
print off some starship pictures.

You should have a design that reeks of adventure and some handouts.

Has anyone got deckplans on the web for suitable ships ? I know there are a
set of plans for the FSY Exploratory Trader design, the Recollet (*), but I
got it via snail mail.

Ian Whitchurch

(*) Ditzie has been mucking around stealthing, upgunning and generally
modifying one, in order to continue her feud with Gridlore by, as she says,
'Knocking the Colonel-wonel Daaaaaaaarby cwass into obsoleswence an an an
selling lots an lots of Wecollet Armiiiiigeurs to twooopers all over the
Iiiiiimpewium'.

By the way, she wants to know if people want the fusion guns for
atmospheric work in the 50, 100 or 200 megajoule range (projected damage
circa 280, 400 or 520 range, where 20=1 cm of Superdense).

A shipboard FS Gauss Gun is also under consideration.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:22:33 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun

When Famile Spofulam goes for a rapid-fire solution, they dont pull their
punches. Featuring the capability to output 4 pulses a second, it can put
out a staggering 1200 megajoules of plasma energy per minute. 

Featuring an integrated firing unit backed up by a unique dual-feed system,
the RPPG is able to utilise main plant power or an auxilary box of 120 EPG
rounds, the FS RPPG has a number of applications, ranging from point
defense, to crowd dispersal, to mineclearing..

In short, another example of the design flair and technical excellence for
which Faile Spofulam is reknowned.

************************************************************************

Technical Specs :

Tech level 12

20 kg firing unit ; Cr 12000
20 kg support ; Cr 12000
700 kg accumulator ; Cr 3500
72 kilos hydrogen (1m3 - 1000 pulses)
1 kg EPG action ; Cr 100 <includes loading for Ditzie's Retirement Fund>
496 kg magazine for 120 12 kg rounds ; Cr 5000
1440 kg worth of rounds (120 rounds) ; Cr 15000 (rounds Cr 125 each)
360 kg autoloader ; Cr 3600

Total : 2820 kg, KCr 47.6. 2.5 m3

Short range 220 meters. Damage 89.

Power demand = 28 MW at 4 pulses/second

Weapon stabailisation, TL12 Ballistic computer, Wide Spectrum Visual Scope,
Advanced Rangefinder ; 225kg, KCr 180

Total system = 3.1t, 2.7 m3, KCr 230

Note that FFS2 does not have a Point Defense fire control system per se.
The Ballistic Computer is capable of overcoming 4 difficulty increases 'due
to range, target motion and so on'.

**************************************************************************

I couldnt think of whether to go with a EPG based system or good old
regular current from the main power plant, so I went with both.

This baby (known as 'Ditzie's Super Soaker' in some quarters) is capable of
pulling some serious point-defense duty. At 4 rounds per second, and
hitting as hard as a 400 MJ laser, it is capable of keeping a point quite
secure.

Oh, and one of these babies in a turret will give most rampaging mobs pause
before they damage the paint of your nice starship. Plus go
wubba-wubba-wubba real fast as it spews hot plasma death all over the
starport.

Plus you can sign your name in the blast berms.

Hey, thats an idea ... a business recycling EPG cartridges ... re-inject
them with hydrogen, reseal them and then sell to gullible plasma gun owners.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #320
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 21 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 321



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Cloning in Mileu 0
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: The Green Berets
Replicant Parts & Jesse
Re: Why we Travel...
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun
Empress Ditzammer
Re: The Green Berets
The Burrito File: reformatted
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Computing power (was Re; a Walrus)
Re: Ship Artists Association 
re: Ship Classes
Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
In Praise of PingPong balls.
Re: Ship limits
Re: The Green Berets
Electric Eel Plasma Rifle
Re: The Green Berets
Paint Rounds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:57:32 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Cloning in Mileu 0

Is full cloning possible in Milieu 0?
In cannon, is it possible to transfer minds/memories to a clone? If so, at
what TTL?


"The face to launch a thousand dredgers."
Jack de Manio, a British broadcaster speaking of the actress Glenda Jackson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:38:29 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

<<SNIP>>

>Michel Vaillancourt writes:
>"Unfortuantely during one crucial engagement, the missile racks turn
>out to be loaded with paint rounds for target practice...."
>
> Always with the negative waves, Michel!
>
>:)
>Ian
<<UNSNIP>>


What does paint do to sensors?  (Hint: many aircraft and ships, plus
ground-based radomes, have "DO NOT PAINT" on them for a reason...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:07:20 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

Clif,

	I read The Green Berets years ago and remember liking it.  BUT here's my
strong suggestion ---Let's NOT open up the whole Vietnam can of worms again,
we've just gotten over the last "sniper" flame war, please no more.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:35:07 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Replicant Parts & Jesse

Reminds me of replicant parts in "Blade Runner"

- --Clif

> You can then zoom in to certain areas down to the submicron level and
>show the jury the little "footprints" that you left.  Really all you need
is
>your name and a date with a surface color the same as the surrounding area.
>This little footprint is barely bigger than a point (a point has no real
>physical size and is infintesimally small) and would be virtually
impossible
>for someone to find unless they knew EXACTLY where it was (i.e. they were
>you).  You could even do something like create the footprint, then do an
>operation that clones that footprint object to every point present in your
>geometry.  As an example, the lowly Scout I've done has 2,437 points
WITHOUT
>the landing gear, gear doors, turret, and external doors.  With all of it's
>parts present, it has 11,544 points.  My Marava Far Trader on the other
hand
>has over 44,000 points in it.  You can see just what kind of a
>needle-in-a-haystack that would be for someone who knew about this trick.
>It's just really not worth it.  In the amount of time it would take someone
>to check that many points, they could build about 10 of their OWN damn
ships
>:)


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:41:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Why we Travel...

We travel to try to outrun death, attempting to see all of the sights
creation has to offer before the day comes that we can see no more.

Consider Rutger Hauer's dying speech in "Blade Runner".  He was lamenting
all of the sights he had seen that would be lost upon his death, and wanted
more time.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
To: TML <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 3:46 AM
Subject: Why we Travel...


>Ok, it time for the Liberal arts side of Trav.
>
>Why do we Travel, become Travellers persay...
>
>I once had a Docter running from his ex wife.
>
>--
>Evyn...
>
>Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:44:09 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

Just as Albert "Cubby" Brocoli put 007 on the silver screen while Ian
Fleming put him in prose?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)


>"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>For example, the testosterone level in the current Ditzie thread is
getting
>>>a bit high. The current 'Phwar, Shag That!' level of the discussion isn't
>>>exactly conducive to female posters.
>>>Dom
>
>>In my own defense, I didn't start the testosterone part :)
>>Jesse
>
>I know - but did you provoke it with the gorgeous piccies? ;-)
>
>BTW, on licensing....
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliot created Famille Spofulam. Ian took the ball and
>developed Ditzie, and you're drawing her...
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:46:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun

Awwww, that wasn't in Ditzie Speak... I've been waiting to hear from her now
that I know she is this cool weapon's testing girl rather than a drag-queen
strung out on drugs.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:49:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Empress Ditzammer

I just want to know what Miss Ditzammer promises us if we make her Empress.

Would she be a Nero, but much prettier?

- --Clif

>'Knocking the Colonel-wonel Daaaaaaaarby cwass into obsoleswence an an an
>selling lots an lots of Wecollet Armiiiiigeurs to twooopers all over the
>Iiiiiimpewium'.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:50:54 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

I was just asking about a book.  Yeesh!

- --Clif


>Clif,
>
> I read The Green Berets years ago and remember liking it.  BUT here's my
>strong suggestion ---Let's NOT open up the whole Vietnam can of worms
again,
>we've just gotten over the last "sniper" flame war, please no more.
>
> Dave Nelson
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:01:40 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: The Burrito File: reformatted

I have revised my definition for the Traveller Burrito File:

"A file consisting of objects of a particular class, which
are important enough to exist in a persistant state across
a significant portion of a Traveller campaign".


I now have a budding young Burrito File.  Here's how I've
organized it:

1. One HTML page per class of NPCs, in Arial 8-point font.

2. Each NPC gets 8 'lines' of text -- whatever the page
composer defaulted to.  This text fits onto the blank side of a
ruled 3x5" index card.

3. "Unassigned" cards are organized in clear plastic 4x6" photo
pages. These pages are available at office supply stores, and hold
2 4x6" photos per page.  The pages have holes in the side for
storage in a regular sized binder.  I find that 4 or more index cards
can fit, side down, in each photo pocket.  Thus I have one
pocket (or one page even) per category.  I call these pockets
Resources.

4. In a separate section, pouches are designated as belonging to
a Place -- a city, world, system, whatever.  When I need a persistant
NPC for a Place, I draw one from the appropriate Resource and put
it in that Place.  That NPC now lives there, unless game flow dictates
a move.  There!  Now I have to try it out in a real game.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 03:08:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In mail you write:

>>> Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.
>>> They are unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on
>>> the reserve list for political reasons, not practical ones.

>> They are in reserve status because of money and manpower issues.
>> Because the Navy failed to update the engineering and firecontrol
>> systems when they modernized the ships in the eighties it requires a
>> disproportional number of sailors to man these ships.  The
>> enginerooms and firerooms could have been updated with the same
>> technology that allows power companies to keep seventy year old
>> steam power plants in operation today with a fraction of the people
>> it took to operate them when they were built.

>> In the face of declining manpower and money the Navy could not
>> continue to operate these ships.

> The cost to cut through the armor belt to access engineering would
> have been prohibitive - not to mention that the skill set needed to
> weld that armor has been lost.  From what I understood, anything less
> than a full conversion to BBN was not practical.

> The fire control suite was upgraded, what was not was the ammunition
> handling systems.  After the IOWA turret incident, I saw some
> documentation about converting the main guns from bagged powder to a
> injected 2-component plastic explosive propellent, but the decision
> to decommission the four BBs was made instead.

> It is a sad truth that the BBs are TL5 relics in a TL8 world.  I've
> always regretted that I did not tour the IOWA when we were moored
> across from her.

Given how useful they've proved several times in the "modern, limited
conflict" warfare, I wonder if there might not be some value to
consider building a few BBNs. I think you need at least three to unsure
that you could have continuous coverage of an area by a Battle Group (1
on station, one in transit, 1 being repaired or in reserve). 

I know it'd never get past Congress, but it's still an interesting
idea. Just what *would* be a good design for a BBN? 

Obviously, you'd have integral Tomahawk launchers as well as the
turreted main guns. What size should the main guns be? 400 mm? 450 mm?
500 mm? How many to a turret? 2 or 3? How many turrets? 2, 3, 4?
What sort of armor? How *big* should the ship be? Do we want to include
launchers for something bigger than tomahawks? Probably not.

I would say that provisions for mounting a *big* laser for anti-air,
anti-missile work should be included. Even a mere 1 MW laser will do
nasty things to most missiles. It's not as if the ship can't spare the
power. :-)

OBtrav. There will be situations where a world will be ordering ships
that will be built at high TLs but designed to be operated & maintained
at lower TLs (silly example: you are trading with a planet at 1600s TL,
what sort of ships will you sell their wet navy?). What parts of the
ship do you use the high TL for, and which do you use the lower TL for?

I think the hull and internal structure might as well be the high TL,
as major damage requires a shipyard regardless, and any repairs made in
the field would be makeshift anyway.  Weapons definitely need to be
lower TL, simply because they require *lots* of maintenance. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 03:31:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In mail you write:

>>The fire control suite was upgraded, what was not was the ammunition
>>handling systems.  After the IOWA turret incident, I saw some documentation
>>about converting the main guns from bagged powder to a injected 2-component
>>plastic explosive propellent, but the decision to decommission the four BBs
>>was made instead.
>
> For changing out the ammo handling for the main guns, none was needed. 
> Using "properly" trained, and supervised sailors, using the properly stored 
> and handled powder. The reason for the turret incident was twofold some of 
> the powder was improperly stored on shore, ie not temperature controlled 
> becoming less stable than it should have been, and a "senior" handling 
> person was experimenting using nonstandard loading procedures.
>
> As for going to binary plastic explosives for propellant, I would have 
> liked to have seen the method/plans for the that. The breach was/is big 
> enough for me to lay down in, I did just that too. Talk about drilling 
> holes in some tough metal, and the pressures that the "plumbing" fixtures 
> would have to withstand.

Well, I suspect that one possibility would be to have a mixer/extruder
gizmo. Either it extrudes a "grain" the right length onto the loading
ramp, and it then gets rammed, or it swings into place against the
breech after the ramp is retracted and extrudes the "grain" directly
into the breech. It then swings back to "stowed" position and you close
the breech.

Either way the extruder would only have to endure fairly low pressures
(less than a lot of hydraulics already in the turret) and the two
components would only get mixed as they exited the extruder.

While it's not practical for such uses, I'm reminded of an interesting
binary explosive used in coal mines. You drill the hole, pack it with
cotton, then saturate the cotton with LOX. Ignite with a standard
blasting cap. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:41:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

In mail you write:

> What if you powered the thing with lots of Floridian Palmetto bugs (big ass
> roaches) in small wheels?
>
> Or maybe you could attach a crank to the pelvis of a male rabbit behind a
> female rabbit?

Much simpler....

Use bioengineering to produce *lots* of the membrane used by electric
eels, electric rays, and other such critters to generate potential
differences. In essence, you'll have *millions* of layers of the
stuff, and a setup that feeded oxygenated glucose solution to them.
That should be able to produce some *incredible* discharges.

An adult electric eel is about as thick as your arm and maybe 2 meters
long. It can discharge *multiple* pulses in the 500 to 1500 volt range,
with enough current to kill a *horse*. 

By stripping the "electric organ" down to its essentials (the membrane
and the solutions), you should be able to get a *lot* more "oomph" out
of it. Voltage depends on the number of layers, current on the area of
the layers. I'm sure there are references somewhere that give the
details. 

Note that as with most fuel cells the plumbing is a nightmare, since it
has to be set up in such a way as to not act as a conductor between the
individual cells.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:50:43 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Computing power (was Re; a Walrus)

Matt wrote
<<SNIP>>
>Not enough space in the airframe for the radar (or, more specifically,
>the processing power required). 2 Billion UKP down the tubes...
>
>ObTrav: And the biggest waste of money the Imperial Navy had was...
>
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt
<<UNSNIP>>

Ah, so you didn't mean it "didn't work", just that it didn't work where it
was supposed to .  Sorry, I misunderstood.  By way of apology I offer the
following...


In 1953 the most powerful computers (with names like Eniac and, wait for
it... Maniac!!) were the size of University buildings.  These literally took
weeks to work out comparitively simple sums.  (Less computing power than a
digital watch!)
In 1963 (IIRC) the computer used to control Atlas ICBMs was a box approx 2ft
x 8ft x 20ft. This could control (again, IIRC) the initialization and launch
control for one ICBM.  (Computing power roughly equivalent to a digital
watch with stopwatch and date function).
 In 'my' computer room we have a CRAY/SGI 'Origin 2000' used to design and
'windtunnel test' Airbus airliners (amongst other things;).  The Origin 2k
is 512 Intel Pentium2's running in series/parallel - the system
automatically arranges them in the best '3d' config for any particular
problem - Massively Parallel Processing.
These are all 'big' boxes that require specialized rooms to run in, with
industrial power supplies and *huge* airconditioing requirements..
For a few months we also had a Hitachi supercomputer that was (IIRC) almost
as capable as the Origin 2k but in a box about 50cm x 100cm x 75cm, with a
sculptured 'wavy' top to stop idiots putting their coffee cups on it - this
is designed to sit in a normal, air-conditioned office with Secretaries,
Juniors and Users next to it - something that would have been undreamed of
with the other systems.

Some Desktop systems are now approaching the capability of CRAY
supercomputers designed in the 1980's.  Data storage has improved by so much
that even the phrase 'orders of magnitude' hardly touches it.

ObTrav:  Someone (Imperial Intelligence in disguise?) approaches the party
and asks them to take a 'pocket calculator' to a neighbouring world.
Unbeknown to the pc's though, the 'calculator' contains the memory chip from
a sophisticated spy system that the locals would like to get their grubby
mitts on...  Always assuming that 'Imperial Intelligence' is not a
contradiction in terms ;).

Imperial Navy's biggest waste of money?  The "Bwana Always Everywhere
Watching-3" Elint cruiser - a converted Type C with a huge sensor suite
(both PESA and AESA) attatched to a mod/1 computer armed with four  and a
huge nose blister that ground crew can never resist painting red...


Jeff R.
"Never mind 'what do you do *with* a manically-depressed robot'.  What do
you do if you *are* a manically-depressed robot?"
"Zootle whurdle.  Zootle whurdle.  Zootle whurdle."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:05:41 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship Artists Association 

In response to the following, Jesse wrote quite alot:
> >Good idea. Maybe someone with a website might contribute a permanent
> gallery
> >site? Also a place to share meshes?
> >
> >M
>
Jesse
While I'd be perfectly happy with the ruleset you suggest, my initial suggestion was more aimed at the amateurs sharing with each other rather than the professionals (or professional, singular) sharing with the amateurs. I don't think anyone would begrudge you keeping the ones you do to yourself, given the knock on improvement on published Traveller material.
One idea might be to get a license from Marc, or through one of the existing licenses, and sell the meshes. I don't know how much you're getting from SJG, but you might be able to find some happy medium whereby you can also sell the meshes on the side for a decent price. As for submitting them to SJG, I'd be surprised if anyone could match the quality of the texturing anyway.
M

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:21:53 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Ship Classes

David J. Golden wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I base my Destroyers on the idea that a TL 6 wet navy Destroyer
could,
>if lucky, take out a Battleship in one shot. Get in close, open up
with
>your torpedo tubes and hope you didn't get torn to scrap in the
process.

	Actually, that's exactly what destroyers were designed to PREVENT
.. the original name was "Torpedo Boat Destroyers," and they were
intended to go after small torpedo boats which could, if lucky, take
out a battleship in one shot ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I see.

Well, you can't expect me to put a spinal mount in a fighter now, 
can you? <G>

Minor error - colored by my recollections of destroyer actions against
capital ships in WW2. Didn't Bismark eat a critical torpedo hit from a
british destroyer? Not enough to sink it, but effectively a mission-kill.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:28:43 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

David J. Golden wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Ex-coast guard friend of mine pointed out a major reason why that
freighter was
>very difficult to sink -- if you take a cargo ship and fill it with
empty
>55-gallon drums, you're going to pretty much have to disintegrate it
to make it
>sink, since flooded cargo compartments will still float...

	ISTR reading somewhere that the Q-Ships of WWII used this. A Q-Ship
was an armed merchantman, masquerading as a unarmed merchantman in a
convoy. Idea was, Nazi raiders sneak in for a turkey shoot, and find
themselves wearing the feathers ...

	Anyway, take your average Liberty ship, fill the hold with ping-pong
balls, and tie down guns on the deck ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Worked great, nearly unsinkable.

Note that ping-pong balls are really, really flammable.

Trade-off...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:09:56 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

somebody did a novel about a Battleship refitted with high energy weapons
called "the Ayes of Texas

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:14:15 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

while rummaging through the web for GURPS Traveller I found CmdrX's page
and his 10 ton weapons pods. no reason these couldnt be used to outfit Q-ships
and since there integrated, you could add some really nasty surprises. The
Honor
Harrington book "Honor Among Enemies" covers this point nicely.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:43:40 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: In Praise of PingPong balls.

One nice trick with a ping pong ball is to bore a hole in one big enough for
a kitchen matchhead to fit through.  Cut off kitchen matchheads (blue-tip, I
think) and put them into the ball into it is cram-packed.  a piece of tape
over the hole will do.

Slam the ping pong ball down on the cement a couple of meters away at night.

Viola!  Your own mini-firework!  (there will probably be a one or two second
delay after impact that will make you think that it didn't go off.  I
haven't had any fail to go off, yet.)

- --Clif

P.S.:  I heard a rumor that Ditzie filled a Gravball with something similar
once and then placed bets as to which team member would get fragged...

>Note that ping-pong balls are really, really flammable.
>
>Trade-off...
>
>Walt Smith
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:43:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Ship limits

At 10:27 PM 3/20/99 +0000, you wrote:
>What is the largest possible hull. Would a 10,000,000 ton battle tender be
>possible. It would be open frame and unstreamlined, the perpose to carry a
>complete fleet of riders and support craft. Useful for big battle but
>useless for frontier patrol/piracy patrol. Comments etc?

You can build as large as you want, but you quickly begin to run into major
problems in surface area.  Big ships need lots of power, which needs lots
of surface area for radiators.

I did a million-man colonist vessel.. that was about 5 Mdt IIRC.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:45:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

At 08:50 AM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I was just asking about a book.  Yeesh!

A book that has little, if anything, to do with Traveller.  Try alt.war, or
alt.folklore.military.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:48:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Electric Eel Plasma Rifle

Sounds like a good pentapod weapon for 2300 AD

>Much simpler....
>
>Use bioengineering to produce *lots* of the membrane used by electric
>eels, electric rays, and other such critters to generate potential
>differences. In essence, you'll have *millions* of layers of the
>stuff, and a setup that feeded oxygenated glucose solution to them.
>That should be able to produce some *incredible* discharges.
>
>An adult electric eel is about as thick as your arm and maybe 2 meters
>long. It can discharge *multiple* pulses in the 500 to 1500 volt range,
>with enough current to kill a *horse*. 
>
>By stripping the "electric organ" down to its essentials (the membrane
>and the solutions), you should be able to get a *lot* more "oomph" out
>of it. Voltage depends on the number of layers, current on the area of
>the layers. I'm sure there are references somewhere that give the
>details. 
>
>Note that as with most fuel cells the plumbing is a nightmare, since it
>has to be set up in such a way as to not act as a conductor between the
>individual cells.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:58:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

Right, a book about Green Berets (special ops) has "little to do with
Traveller" but one can go on and on about Heinlein just because he's a
sci-fi writer.  It's okay to talk about WWII Q-boats but not take a quick
opinion poll about a book that I was obviously correct in assuming a number
of TML'ers had read?

- --Clif


>At 08:50 AM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>I was just asking about a book.  Yeesh!
>
>A book that has little, if anything, to do with Traveller.  Try alt.war, or
>alt.folklore.military.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:04:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Paint Rounds

I remember when my Armor 1st Sergeant laughed at the idea of paint rounds
for tanks, saying, "Could you imagine one of those hitting an infantryman?"

- --Clif


>It's a mother-BEAUTIFUL tank!
>:)
>Jesse
>
>
>>Michel Vaillancourt writes:
>>"Unfortuantely during one crucial engagement, the missile racks turn
>>out to be loaded with paint rounds for target practice...."
>>
>> Always with the negative waves, Michel!
>>
>>:)
>>Ian
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #321
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 21 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 322



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Green Berets
Re: Why we Travel...
wallpaper authorization
Imperial Black Ops
Re: FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun
Re: Why we Travel...
Re: T4 - what to do
Re: Empress Ditzammer
Re: Ship Artists Association 
Re: OT Painter 3D
re: Ship Classes
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Why we Travel...
VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Cardboard Ships (was: Cardboard Heroes)
Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: The Burrito File: reformatted
re: Ship Classes
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: OT Painter 3D
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: The Green Berets

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:29:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

At 11:58 AM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Right, a book about Green Berets (special ops) has "little to do with
>Traveller" but one can go on and on about Heinlein just because he's a
>sci-fi writer.  It's okay to talk about WWII Q-boats but not take a quick
>opinion poll about a book that I was obviously correct in assuming a number
>of TML'ers had read?

Heinlein can be directly applied to Traveller.  The discussion on Q boats
can be directly applied to Traveller.  Asking for a review of "The Green
Berets" is not related to traveller, and should be addressed in another forum.

If you had asked about Imperial Special-ops forces, or mentioned the
book/movie in relation to a proposed campaign, that would have been
on-topic.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:31:05 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Why we Travel...

Insert several good sigs from TML'ers here :)
Jesse



>Ok, it time for the Liberal arts side of Trav.
>
>Why do we Travel, become Travellers persay...
>
>I once had a Docter running from his ex wife.
>
>--
>Evyn...
>
>Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:35:11 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: wallpaper authorization

No prob!  Warms my heart that there are at least half a dozen systems out
there (aside from the three that are mine ;) that have some of my pics as
wallpapers.

On a serious note, I have absolutely no problem with non-commercial, private
use of any of the gallery pictures posted on my site.  If you want to use
any of these images for your website, you are also free to do so as long as
you 1.notify me and 2.give proper credit and URL.


Best,
Jesse


>GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>
>> While I've seen the new ones, I also liked the teen-aged one, and my
browser
>>ate the cache file (#!@#! AOL). Is there any way of getting that picture
>>directly?
>
>On a Mac, drag the picture to the desktop from the browser window. On a PC,
>right click on the image, and select save image. IE may do things
>differently from Navigator 4.
>
>And check Jesse is happy with you downloading them ;-)
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:42:48 -0500
From: William Louis Cusick <maldeus@olg.com>
Subject: Imperial Black Ops

Hi There!

This Green Beret argument does bring up a traveller question for me.
Are there any canon sources for Imperial Black Ops.  How about in home
brewed campaigns.  I'm formulating a campaign employing Imperial Special
Forces and just wanted to see how others handled it.

Thanks,
Bill

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:38:16 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun

Ooooohhhh, I feel a good Ditzie cartoon coming on!!!
:D

Jesse




>
>When Famile Spofulam goes for a rapid-fire solution, they dont pull their
>punches. Featuring the capability to output 4 pulses a second, it can put
>out a staggering 1200 megajoules of plasma energy per minute.
>
>Featuring an integrated firing unit backed up by a unique dual-feed system,
>the RPPG is able to utilise main plant power or an auxilary box of 120 EPG
>rounds, the FS RPPG has a number of applications, ranging from point
>defense, to crowd dispersal, to mineclearing..
>
>In short, another example of the design flair and technical excellence for
>which Faile Spofulam is reknowned.
>
>************************************************************************
>
>Technical Specs :
>
>Tech level 12
>
>20 kg firing unit ; Cr 12000
>20 kg support ; Cr 12000
>700 kg accumulator ; Cr 3500
>72 kilos hydrogen (1m3 - 1000 pulses)
>1 kg EPG action ; Cr 100 <includes loading for Ditzie's Retirement Fund>
>496 kg magazine for 120 12 kg rounds ; Cr 5000
>1440 kg worth of rounds (120 rounds) ; Cr 15000 (rounds Cr 125 each)
>360 kg autoloader ; Cr 3600
>
>Total : 2820 kg, KCr 47.6. 2.5 m3
>
>Short range 220 meters. Damage 89.
>
>Power demand = 28 MW at 4 pulses/second
>
>Weapon stabailisation, TL12 Ballistic computer, Wide Spectrum Visual Scope,
>Advanced Rangefinder ; 225kg, KCr 180
>
>Total system = 3.1t, 2.7 m3, KCr 230
>
>Note that FFS2 does not have a Point Defense fire control system per se.
>The Ballistic Computer is capable of overcoming 4 difficulty increases 'due
>to range, target motion and so on'.
>
>**************************************************************************
>
>I couldnt think of whether to go with a EPG based system or good old
>regular current from the main power plant, so I went with both.
>
>This baby (known as 'Ditzie's Super Soaker' in some quarters) is capable of
>pulling some serious point-defense duty. At 4 rounds per second, and
>hitting as hard as a 400 MJ laser, it is capable of keeping a point quite
>secure.
>
>Oh, and one of these babies in a turret will give most rampaging mobs pause
>before they damage the paint of your nice starship. Plus go
>wubba-wubba-wubba real fast as it spews hot plasma death all over the
>starport.
>
>Plus you can sign your name in the blast berms.
>
>Hey, thats an idea ... a business recycling EPG cartridges ... re-inject
>them with hydrogen, reseal them and then sell to gullible plasma gun
owners.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:40:25 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Why we Travel...

Damn Clif, that was actually quite eloquent!
Jesse


>We travel to try to outrun death, attempting to see all of the sights
>creation has to offer before the day comes that we can see no more.
>
>Consider Rutger Hauer's dying speech in "Blade Runner".  He was lamenting
>all of the sights he had seen that would be lost upon his death, and wanted
>more time.
>
>--Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:44:06 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: T4 - what to do

YES to all >:D

Jesse

>(*) Ditzie has been mucking around stealthing, upgunning and generally
>modifying one, in order to continue her feud with Gridlore by, as she says,
>'Knocking the Colonel-wonel Daaaaaaaarby cwass into obsoleswence an an an
>selling lots an lots of Wecollet Armiiiiigeurs to twooopers all over the
>Iiiiiimpewium'.
>
>By the way, she wants to know if people want the fusion guns for
>atmospheric work in the 50, 100 or 200 megajoule range (projected damage
>circa 280, 400 or 520 range, where 20=1 cm of Superdense).
>
>A shipboard FS Gauss Gun is also under consideration.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:49:02 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Empress Ditzammer

From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
: I just want to know what Miss Ditzammer promises us if we make her
Empress.


Would you prefer your payment in one lump of plasma or in VRF small
change?

"Dulche et decorum est pro Ditzammer more."


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:58:55 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Artists Association 

Ah, but given time, interest, (and my master plan of Lightwave converts >:)
I expect there'll be a lot more illustrated sites out there from Traveller
artists.  And while I don't have direct experience with them, some of the
lower level packages that were mentioned look to be capable of really nice
work.  I certainly hope more people out there get interested in the fun.
It's like building a plastic model kit where you have to make the pieces,
put 'em together, and then make the paint to paint 'em with =)  I'm sure
Chris Cox and Mike Linsenmayer can agree with me on that (if they're out
there on the TML).

As always I'll give any help, advice, or tips that I can when it comes to 3D
artwork.  With the completion of my new Sulieman I should have a tutorial on
building it up sometime shortly after the Starports deadline on the 29th.

I've given a little bit of thought to the licensing issue, but haven't
mulled it over enough yet :)

Best,
Jesse




>Jesse
>While I'd be perfectly happy with the ruleset you suggest, my initial
suggestion was more aimed at the amateurs sharing with each other rather
than the professionals (or professional, singular) sharing with the
amateurs. I don't think anyone would begrudge you keeping the ones you do to
yourself, given the knock on improvement on published Traveller material.
>One idea might be to get a license from Marc, or through one of the
existing licenses, and sell the meshes. I don't know how much you're getting
from SJG, but you might be able to find some happy medium whereby you can
also sell the meshes on the side for a decent price. As for submitting them
to SJG, I'd be surprised if anyone could match the quality of the texturing
anyway.
>M
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:09:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT Painter 3D

 Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:

>> Good idea. Maybe someone with a website might contribute a permanent gallery
>> site? Also a place to share meshes?

How big a site are you thinking about?

I currently have about 15MB unused.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:15:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Ship Classes

 "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:
<deja vu>

>Minor error - colored by my recollections of destroyer actions against
>capital ships in WW2. Didn't Bismark eat a critical torpedo hit from a
>british destroyer? Not enough to sink it, but effectively a mission-kill.

A Fairy(sp?) Swordfish put a torpedo in her which knackered her steering
IIRC. If you go back a few months there was a whole thread on the Bizmarck
which we got told off about for being so OT ;-)
</deja vu>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:41:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Use bioengineering to produce *lots* of the membrane used by electric
> eels, electric rays, and other such critters to generate potential
> differences. In essence, you'll have *millions* of layers of the

[snip]

I loathe the crass materialistic spirit that infests your very thoughts,
Mr. Erickson.  What sort of solution is that?  What grandeur is there in
the obsessively micromanaged filleting of eels?  What awe is there in
compulsive cost/benefit optimization of petri dishes?  Where is the
experience of the numinous to be found in a <cough> membrane-pack-powered
laser pistol?  

Base Enlightenment, begone from Strephon's realms!

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:42:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Why we Travel...

Yeah, even if QUITE off-topic.  : P~

- --Clif

P.S.:  Can you BUY TML citizenship?  You know, so that I can be above the
law level of the list like old-timers like Doug?


>Damn Clif, that was actually quite eloquent!
>Jesse
>
>
>>We travel to try to outrun death, attempting to see all of the sights
>>creation has to offer before the day comes that we can see no more.
>>
>>Consider Rutger Hauer's dying speech in "Blade Runner".  He was lamenting
>>all of the sights he had seen that would be lost upon his death, and
wanted
>>more time.
>>
>>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:48:38 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

Hi All,

I've added a simple "holographic" display (that can be rotated) on the 
bridge and some comm panels about the ship.  Any feedback appreciated.  

Many improvements will take a while due to non-hobby intrusions.
But the rest of the Scout ship and furniture will be next.

I'd also like to find a small (<100 kB) film clip (mpeg, avi...) of
a space battle to display on the bridge's viewscreen.  If anyone
knows of one let me know.  I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Kristian
http://www.3rd-imperium.com  chose Imperial Ship Yards.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:46:34 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
><< Montgomery  is one of the most maligned commanders of the 2nd WW
> (especially by American commentators). Montgomery was a master of the
> set piece battle (thats why Eisenhower put him in overall command of the
> Normandy battles). Montgomery had a particular eye for minute detail and
> was a brillant planner. Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
> superiority to avoid defeat. >>
>
>ie, he was too cautious, but I'm a biased American...
>
>Ob Trav: Santanocheev Vs. Norris...

Keep in mind the different logistical situations. The Americans had larger
reserves of manpower, more equipment, generally more everything. They
could afford costly victories, or even several defeats, and still keep
fighting. The British were stretched mighty thin, and knew it.  They
couldn't afford any more heavy losses.

(That said, my grandafther was always extremely scathing of Monty, more so
than anyone else I've ever heard him talk about, so there's at least one
British Army vet who didn't like him.)  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:50:07 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Cardboard Ships (was: Cardboard Heroes)

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> writes:
>Never saw them, but I'm sure it's do-able.  If I were to do something like
>this, what is the size that the counters, cubes, whatever should be?
>
>Jesse
>
>
>>How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA
>starship
>>combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...

How about making them in scale to the Rafm ship models?  Certainly not any
smaller.

If you're game, I'll see if I can send you a digital photo of some of my
ship models, with a ruler for size.  Or I could just give you
length/width/height (which is easier).  Let me know...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:29:01 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System

At 05:56 pm 3/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Dave,
>
>I reread the Player's Manual, (pg 66, top of second column)
>The number before the slash is inoperative, the number after the
slash is
>killed or destroyed.
>So, 4 / 7 would be 4 points to inoperative, 7 points to kill.

	Can't argue, as my PM is with all my other worldly possessions,
being abused in a warehouse somewhere. I could have sworn there was
something in there (or in the ref's manual) that the second number
wasn't actually killed for characters, just critical, near-death.
Death was if, when you actually rolled the damage dice, all three
characteristics wound up zero.

>Did you use the x2 for +2, x4 for +4 and x8 for +8 rule? What do you


	I don't recall; I thought I just played it more or less by the book
(apparently not ...).

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:36:28 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

At 10:51 pm 3/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
>The next question is whether this extends to Marc Miller's
subsequent
>license holders (i.e. SJ Games) .  There's been some confusion as to
>whether concepts from DGP are useable in G:T products.  My
understanding
>was that, because the operate under a license granted by the rights
holder,
>SJ Games should have the ability to use DGP concepts as you
describe, but
>others have said that DGP concepts are off limits.
>
>What's the real answer?

	Talk to a lawyer for a good answer to that. I was just rehashing
what Marc himself has posted over the years about the GDW/DGP
license.

	Or, have Ditzie hunt down and ... de-exist ... Roger Sanger (who
bought DGP, and is apparently being irrational about licensing it),
and then talk to his heirs ...

	Oh, and make sure Ditzie knows the difference between Roger Sanger,
and Paul Sanders (this confusion popped up a while back ...)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:44:24 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: The Burrito File: reformatted

At 08:01 am 3/21/99 -0600, you wrote:
>4. In a separate section, pouches are designated as belonging to
>a Place -- a city, world, system, whatever.  When I need a
persistant
>NPC for a Place, I draw one from the appropriate Resource and put
>it in that Place.  That NPC now lives there, unless game flow
dictates
>a move.  There!  Now I have to try it out in a real game.

	Worked great for me when I ref'd. But why restrict yourself to just
8 lines? I used as much as I needed, and could fit on a 3x5 card
front & back. There's a couple of useful programs out there to
intercept printer output, do any necessary rescaling and layout, and
tile it front & back on the sheet. Also organizes the pages to allow
booklet folding, etc. Marvelous tool for getting loads of info
without wasting paper, or doing special things like weapons & NPC
cards. The one I use is ClickBook, and it's available for Mac and
Winblows.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:48:42 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Ship Classes

At 10:21 am 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>	Actually, that's exactly what destroyers were designed to PREVENT
>.. the original name was "Torpedo Boat Destroyers," and they were
>intended to go after small torpedo boats which could, if lucky, take
>out a battleship in one shot ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I see.
>
>Well, you can't expect me to put a spinal mount in a fighter now, 
>can you? <G>
>
>Minor error - colored by my recollections of destroyer actions
against
>capital ships in WW2. Didn't Bismark eat a critical torpedo hit from
a
>british destroyer? Not enough to sink it, but effectively a
mission-kill.

	As Bruce correctly pointed out, the Torpedo Boat Destroyer very
quickly took on the characteristics of its prey, and was used both to
attack and defend capital ships. Wasn't there a fairly big nigthttime
action in the Pacific between a Japanese carrier fleet and a US
destroyer squadron?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:49:43 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

At 10:28 am 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>	ISTR reading somewhere that the Q-Ships of WWII used this. A Q-Ship
>was an armed merchantman, masquerading as a unarmed merchantman in a
>convoy. Idea was, Nazi raiders sneak in for a turkey shoot, and find
>themselves wearing the feathers ...
>
>	Anyway, take your average Liberty ship, fill the hold with
ping-pong
>balls, and tie down guns on the deck ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Worked great, nearly unsinkable.
>
>Note that ping-pong balls are really, really flammable.

	Do tell ... are they filled with something cool, or is it just the
plastic shell?h
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:52:09 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: OT Painter 3D

At 05:09 pm 3/21/99 +0000, you wrote:
> Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>>> Good idea. Maybe someone with a website might contribute a
permanent gallery
>>> site? Also a place to share meshes?
>
>How big a site are you thinking about?
>
>I currently have about 15MB unused.

	I've got an unknown but large amount still available, but little
time to do much with it.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:54:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

URL, please.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 2:53 PM
Subject: VRML 3D Deckplans continue


>Hi All,
>
>I've added a simple "holographic" display (that can be rotated) on the 
>bridge and some comm panels about the ship.  Any feedback appreciated.  
>
>Many improvements will take a while due to non-hobby intrusions.
>But the rest of the Scout ship and furniture will be next.
>
>I'd also like to find a small (<100 kB) film clip (mpeg, avi...) of
>a space battle to display on the bridge's viewscreen.  If anyone
>knows of one let me know.  I'd appreciate it.
>
>Thanks,
>Kristian
>http://www.3rd-imperium.com  chose Imperial Ship Yards.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:00:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

>Heinlein can be directly applied to Traveller.

Oh, and any other work of fiction can't be applied to an RPG?  Gimme a
break.

>  The discussion on Q boats
>can be directly applied to Traveller.  Asking for a review of "The Green
>Berets" is not related to traveller, and should be addressed in another
forum.
>
I can't apply if I haven't read it because I don't know whether it is
worthwhile reading, now can I?

>If you had asked about Imperial Special-ops forces, or mentioned the
>book/movie in relation to a proposed campaign,

Why would I if I haven't read it, yet?

> that would have been
>on-topic.
>--

- --Clif

>
>Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
>
>TML Great Old One
>Plaque of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
>Chant "Skidmore" thrice to summon.
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #322
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 21 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 323



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: The Green Berets
Re: Imperial Black Ops
WHO is Ditzammer, REALLY?
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System
Re: wallpaper authorization
Re: Cardboard Ships (was: Cardboard Heroes)
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Combine MT with G:T combat (was Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System)
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Ship Design Rules
Re: Ship Design Rules
Re: Ship Artists Association
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Depot's 
Re: Ship Design Rules
Green Berets
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Ditzie Does Gauss Guns
web site space
Re: Ship Design Rules
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: A Walrus
Re: H&K G11

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:02:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Watch out, you wouldn't want Doug to throw his weight (!) around by telling
you your posts aren't on-topic.

- --Clif

Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...


>Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>><< Montgomery  is one of the most maligned commanders of the 2nd WW
>> (especially by American commentators). Montgomery was a master of the
>> set piece battle (thats why Eisenhower put him in overall command of the
>> Normandy battles). Montgomery had a particular eye for minute detail and
>> was a brillant planner. Montgomery won by ensuring that he had sufficent
>> superiority to avoid defeat. >>
>>
>>ie, he was too cautious, but I'm a biased American...
>>
>>Ob Trav: Santanocheev Vs. Norris...
>
>Keep in mind the different logistical situations. The Americans had larger
>reserves of manpower, more equipment, generally more everything. They
>could afford costly victories, or even several defeats, and still keep
>fighting. The British were stretched mighty thin, and knew it.  They
>couldn't afford any more heavy losses.
>
>(That said, my grandafther was always extremely scathing of Monty, more so
>than anyone else I've ever heard him talk about, so there's at least one
>British Army vet who didn't like him.)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:06:13 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

I sorry if I irritated you Cliff, but I really didn't want to see the Vietnam
flame war start all over again.   I shouldn't have mentioned that wish, I
apologize.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:08:52 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

	The Imperium would never need such a thing as "Black Ops".  Honrable people
act above board.   I am insulted at such a suggestion.

			The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:11:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: WHO is Ditzammer, REALLY?

Could Ian please describe, in truth, not in jest, what Ditzammer is like?
Everyone seemed to be afraid of her because of the chance of being
accidentally shot.  Now it seems that she is sinister and will hunt people
down and kill them?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:18:51 -0500
From: William Louis Cusick <maldeus@olg.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>         The Imperium would never need such a thing as "Black Ops".  Honrable people
> act above board.   I am insulted at such a suggestion.
>
>                         The Old Marquis

So where does the Imperium fit into that statement?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:15:48 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

In a message dated 3/21/99 2:51:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< 
 Keep in mind the different logistical situations. The Americans had larger
 reserves of manpower, more equipment, generally more everything. They
 could afford costly victories, or even several defeats, and still keep
 fighting. The British were stretched mighty thin, and knew it.  They
 couldn't afford any more heavy losses. >>

	Americans were also still applying lessons learned in our Civil War.
McClellan and some of the other commanders who foolowied him were cautious,
slow and put the preservation of their army at the top of their priority
list--and the result was failure and stalemate over and over again against a
numerically inferior opponent.  Grant, Sherman and the later commanders made
constant engagement and winning strtegic victories regardless of tacitical
cost as the high priority and this led to the final victory (at a high cost in
lives).   The lesson the Americans learned, and continued to apply was that
high casulties in the short run are worth the cost since the war will be over
sooner and the total casulties will in fact be lower.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:21:21 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System

Dave,

Your right,

The damage assesment was to determine how  damaged they are. If the first
number is not reached, none of the characteristics are allowed to go below
zero. If the second number was not reached, all three characteristics are
not allowed to go below zero. If all three characteristics reach zero,
diagnosis within 1D minutes will keep the character (barely) alive long
enough to get into a low berth or to nearby  tech 9+ hospital

I guess, technically, reaching the second number brings you to a "destroyed"
state... but not actual death.


>being abused in a warehouse somewhere. I could have sworn there was
>something in there (or in the ref's manual) that the second number
>wasn't actually killed for characters, just critical, near-death.
>Death was if, when you actually rolled the damage dice, all three
>characteristics wound up zero.
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:20:40 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: wallpaper authorization

>No prob!  Warms my heart that there are at least half a dozen systems out
>there (aside from the three that are mine ;) that have some of my pics as
>wallpapers.

Thanks for that Jesse. To tell you the truth I already was using some of your
scans on two of my machines, and I'm sure a few other people I know are doing
so as well, basd on the number of people who asked me where I got the cool
wallpaper, though I did tell them to go to your site to find them, so at least
you should be getting the advertising !

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:26:32 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Ships (was: Cardboard Heroes)

Either would be fine.  Frank Pitt sent me a scan of the Ren Legion cubes, so
I've got that much to go off of so far.
Jesse




>"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> writes:
>>Never saw them, but I'm sure it's do-able.  If I were to do something like
>>this, what is the size that the counters, cubes, whatever should be?
>>
>>Jesse
>>
>>
>>>How about the Cardboard cubes that Leviathan (Renagade Legion FASA
>>starship
>>>combat) used. You could show top, front, rear, bottom and side views...
>
>How about making them in scale to the Rafm ship models?  Certainly not any
>smaller.
>
>If you're game, I'll see if I can send you a digital photo of some of my
>ship models, with a ruler for size.  Or I could just give you
>length/width/height (which is easier).  Let me know...
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:31:11 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

My guess would be follow the URL at the bottom of his message ;)  Like most
posts of URL's that's the gateway.

Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm



>URL, please.
>
>--Clif
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
>To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 2:53 PM
>Subject: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
>
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>I've added a simple "holographic" display (that can be rotated) on the
>>bridge and some comm panels about the ship.  Any feedback appreciated.
>>
>>Many improvements will take a while due to non-hobby intrusions.
>>But the rest of the Scout ship and furniture will be next.
>>
>>I'd also like to find a small (<100 kB) film clip (mpeg, avi...) of
>>a space battle to display on the bridge's viewscreen.  If anyone
>>knows of one let me know.  I'd appreciate it.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kristian
>>http://www.3rd-imperium.com  chose Imperial Ship Yards.
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:33:55 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

Clif have you ever done time?  At work, we're always preventing the Inmates
from "hoarding" matches for just the same reason.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:44:31 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Combine MT with G:T combat (was Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System)

I'm thinking of exchanging the Penetration vs. Armor of MT for the Damage
Resistance in Gurps.

Didn't TNE use a DR system? I've only seen the cover... so I know almost
nothing about TNE.

I'm looking for help in determining what the DR should be for armor and what
the damage should be for weapons. I was comparing the stats in G:T and MT.

It looks like more damage dice are added to weapons with higher penetraition
and those with really low penetration actually have less damage.

MT: A guass pistol (dmg 4D , pen 4) would do 2D damage to an unarmored
person on a roll of 7.
G:T : A guass pistol (dmg 6(2)) would do 6D damage to an unarmored person on
a successful attack.

Same scenario, but target has Combat Enviro Suit (AR Value 6 / DR 24)
MT: Guass Pistol does 0d damage (1/10 dmg for zero pen and 1/2 for marg.
success / 0.2d damage)
G:T : Guass Pistol does 6d damage, DR is 1/2 for guass weapon, result, 6d -
12 points.

Doesn't G:T seem a lot deadlier? Consider a Gurps character on average has
10 HT and a traveller character has 21 lifeforce (7's in ST, DX, EN). It
could take 4 shots with the guass pistol in MT to kill and just 1 in Gurps.
How damaging should a guass pistol be?

I was almost thinking that the Gurps numbers would work better for traveller
unadjusted. What do all y'all think? If I come up with a good conversion,
I'll post it on a web page.

Thanks,
Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:45:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

Oh yeah, I see it, now.  "Chose imperial shipyard"

- --Clif


>My guess would be follow the URL at the bottom of his message ;)  Like most
>posts of URL's that's the gateway.
>
>Jesse
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:46:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

No, I think I learned that trick from some Mormon missionaries.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:33:43 -0500
From: William Louis Cusick <maldeus@olg.com>
Subject: Ship Design Rules

Hi There!

I've tried to design ships using MT and T4, with some success in T4 and
none in MT.  I see these ships designed with the HG rules, and I like
the look of them.  Does anyone know where I could possibly get HG, or
are the rules published separately anywhere?

Thanks,
Bill

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:40:56 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Design Rules

: I've tried to design ships using MT and T4, with some success in T4
and
: none in MT.  I see these ships designed with the HG rules, and I like
: the look of them.  Does anyone know where I could possibly get HG, or
: are the rules published separately anywhere?


==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader

[Hey, just trying to be helpful ;-) ]


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:14:57 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Ship Artists Association

On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:43:39 -0500, "Jesse DeGraff"
<fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>>> ObTravCommunity: We've had ship design contests for the gearheads and story
>>> contests for the literary. Are there enough of us out there who try to take
>>> photos of the non-existant to try a Traveller computer illustration
>>> contest? We could give Jesse the first prize and fight amongst ourselves
>>> for second and third.

>>Good idea. Maybe someone with a website might contribute a permanent gallery
>>site? Also a place to share meshes?

>There's already a very small library at Freelance Traveller, but I don't
>know if Jeff would want to take on the added duties of something like this.
>I'll think about it.  I've certainly got the space and bandwidth (both
>"unlimited" with my Hosting Service), but I'm not sure if I can put out the
>time necessary to keep the project going and updated.

The only reason that Freelance Traveller's Multimedia Gallery is
small is because I don't get a lot of contributions.  I have a
few more Linsenmayers that I have to put in; lately, time and
life (and I don't mean the magazines, either) have been
conspiring to keep me from spending as much time on site
maintenance as I'd like.  It looks like I may be able to get a
break to do some of this stuff soon; it will be lots easier
if/when Downport supports the FrontPage extensions.  I've also
been concentrating on trying to analyze why some people seem to
get the pages screwed up when they view 'em; that problem is now
"solved" and waiting for upload.  The problem is that there's a
bug in Netscape that doesn't exist in IE; Netscape either
distorts background images or doesn't handle mixed width
specifications on tables properly.

If other people are willing to run these contests, I'm willing to
host a page/pages in the Gallery for the winners.  As far as
rights go, all rights remain with the creator - and so does all
responsibility.  I _can't_ stop people from misusing what's
posted on Freelance Traveller; if the creator sees misuse, it's
his/her responsibility to pursue it.  The most that I will do is,
at the creator's request, _reluctantly_ remove it from Freelance
Traveller.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:46:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> numerically inferior opponent.  Grant, Sherman and the later commanders made
> constant engagement and winning strtegic victories regardless of tacitical
> cost as the high priority and this led to the final victory (at a high cost in
> lives).   The lesson the Americans learned, and continued to apply was that
> high casulties in the short run are worth the cost since the war will be over
> sooner and the total casulties will in fact be lower.

Qewl -- so they were Vilani :)

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:51:13 +0000
From: David Scott <d.scott@ic.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Depot's 

>What makes up a depot, what can be found there. What sort of system
>defenses are present. 

In TD7 the main feature is set in a depot Dynam 0409/Masionia/lishun a 
red zone.

Main world is a home to naval families.
A moon of a gas giant has the orbital moth balled ship yard. Deep 2 meson 
sites for defence and an orbital base w. 1 meson &1 pa spine, missiles & 
lasers.
This depot has no ship yards or design facilitieswhich is unusual.

1200 mothballed ships [fighters to BB's]

system patrol = 

18 Scorpion class SDBs [2000t, needle, 6g, missle bay, pa, fusion & sand, 
ND9, mS9, armour-10
50 wasp class SDBs [1000t,2000t, needle, 6g, missle bay, pulse lasers & 
sand, ND9, mS9, armour-10

all hg designed.


























David

mailto:d.scott@snail.dircon.co.uk
http://www.snail.dircon.co.uk/
- --
List owner: CoreShamanism@onelist.com
Subscribe: CoreShamanism@snail.dircon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:01:43 -0500
From: William Louis Cusick <maldeus@olg.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Design Rules

Just for the info, what's the difference between 1st Ed and 2nd Ed HG?

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:10:19 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Green Berets

The book actually does have some good ideas for people running Star Merc
campaigns.
Like what do when Sepoy troops you don't quite trust are manning the
machine gun
nests at your firebase parameter...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
      Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:16:02 -0000
From: "Richard Talbot" <richard.talbot@abbadon.sol.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

I ran a campaign based around the Imperial Marine Special Operations Group
(IMSOG) and did a few preliminary docs with standard equipment and
organisation.  These were mainly recon and infiltration missions in the
Hinterworlds sector.  If you like I can post these Word 6.0 docs onto my web
pages

Richard Talbot
richard.talbot@abbadon.sol.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:13:30 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns

Best sophonts of Famile Spofulam,

We have recently had the distinct pleasure to view your proposal for a 
120mm RF gauss gun (aka Ditzies little helper).

We cannot however not understand why the gun uses TL-4 KEAP rounds when 
it could be using TL-8 APFSDSDU round or even TL-12 APFSDSSD.

Dimashq Industries
Military Vehicles Division

<serious mode>
Ian, you made a slight oversight when you designed the weapon. At higher 
TL:s than 4 the pen rating is multiplied with a constant as the 
projectile becomes more advanced. With APFSDSDU the pen rating would 
become 936. If this sounds to much for anyone remember that the gun has 
~27 times more power than the Rheinmetal 120mm smoothbore on M1:s and 
Leopards. 
<serious mode off>

Ohh, and as we are talking guass weapons:
Why doesnt velocity effect the gun barrel in terms of weight even 
slighty. Some thing like Wt = Cal^2*Vel/60000 (tons) maybe.

Im trying to design a 10-cm Gauss RapidFire heavy mortar but the barrel 
weights 4 tons and that is a little to much for a mortar in my taste 
(especially as it has 4 barrels).

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:16:41 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: web site space

Currently, xoom.com is offering "unlimited" site space.  The cost is a
rather small banner across the top, and 1-2 ads in email a week.  Pretty
easy to filter if you want to.

For an example, take a look at http://members.xoom.com/S_Strasse/

They have a counter service, lots of good detail, but a big banner.  An
example can be seen at 
http://members.xoom.com/S_Strasse/CSkies.htm


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
   Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:21:25 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Design Rules

Would you like help with MT ship design? I could put my notes to making a
ship on a web page if your interested.

MT ships are the only kind I have ever designed... it took a while to get a
good understanding of what the rules are doing... theirs a bit of going back
and changing what you did because it doesn't work farther along the design
sequence. I find using a spreadsheet helps greatly. At the very least, have
a calculator handy. Also, for your first designs, make simple things...
maybe a grav tank or a fighter... then redesign a scout ship. This may help
when making more "custom" designs.

I found having the 101 vehicles from DGP very useful in figuring out MT
design.

Good luck with HG!

I think I like the HG system for being its simplicity (Compared to MT). I've
never seen FFS(2), so I don't know how difficult they can get their. I saw a
spreadsheet someone made for T4 and it seemed to have similarities to MT.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)


>Hi There!
>
>I've tried to design ships using MT and T4, with some success in T4 and
>none in MT.  I see these ships designed with the HG rules, and I like
>the look of them.  Does anyone know where I could possibly get HG, or
>are the rules published separately anywhere?
>
>Thanks,
>Bill
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:47:21 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

At 10:28 AM 21/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>	Anyway, take your average Liberty ship, fill the hold with ping-pong
>balls, and tie down guns on the deck ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Worked great, nearly unsinkable.
>
>Note that ping-pong balls are really, really flammable.
>
>Trade-off...
>
>Walt Smith
>
          Us Canucks filled the holds with timber...  pre-soaked.

- --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:13:11 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A Walrus

SD Mooney wrote:

>>ObTrav: And the biggest waste of money the Imperial Navy had was...
>
>Admiral Sanatocheev

:>

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:11:11 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: H&K G11

Clif wrote:

>>And when you read the messages in a digest, the subjects aren't
>>highlighted.
>
>Oh, okay, I didn't know that.

Fair enough.

>>Ah, bite me. I was down at Fort Halstead just the other day, and I can
>>assure you that insensitivity of munitions to attack isn't a big deal.
>
>What do you mean, "to attack"?

Basically, you test munitions to see what happens to them if they're hit
by enemy fire. Assuming the hit isn't immediately catastrophic (i.e. no
form of ammunition is going to fail to burn when hit by the jet from a
HEAT warhead), the worst any ammunition should do is burn *slowly*
(since rapid burning and low-order detonation are in essence the same
thing).

Now, if a munition is capable of surviving this kind of treatment, it's
safe to drop.

>You don't seem to get it.  The only reason I'm even bringing up these ammo
>tests is because SOMEONE ELSE was perpetuating the rumor that I ALSO thought
>to be true until I did some reading--namely, that the caseless ammo wouldn't
>make it in the field.  I merely returned with, "They tested it, and it makes
>it."  Maybe the reason you don't think solid propellant surviving a drop
>from an aircraft (I'm not talking about a drop with a parachute) is because
>you had some of it hit you on the head?  Hmm?

We already use combustible case ammo in the field (not quite the same as
caseless, but nearly). Why would I think that it's unsafe? I get the
impression that we've been arguing the same side here.

>>It's a standard test that anything we are buying or making has to pass.
>
>And I'm only saying that it passed the test.  Go back and read the thread.
>
>>I can't recall the last time something was rejected from our procurement
>>system for failing it.
>
>And I'm saying that there is no reason to reject it because of the ammo and
>the soldiers who have tested the thing in the field LOVE it, but because it
>isn't COLT, American soldiers probably won't get it.  That's all I'm
>saying....

Ah, NIH. It is a trait observed far to often on your side of the pond.

ObTrav: Although people might express a preference for gear made in a
particular system, is NIH going to be a major problem for the Imperium's
constituent worlds?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #323
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 21 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 324



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: Ship limits
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: Ship Classes
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: Alternate weapon systems. Was: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
re: Q-Ships
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
re: Ship Classes
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Ditzie, FTML'ers, and an apology.
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Dizie Does Gauss Guns - correct version
Re: Grav tank tactics
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:05:01 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

At the end of the original message...

Clif wrote:
> 
> URL, please.
> 
> --Clif
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
> To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 2:53 PM
> Subject: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
> 
> >Hi All,
> >
...
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Kristian
> >http://www.3rd-imperium.com  chose Imperial Ship Yards.
> >

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:25:02 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship limits

In a message dated 3/21/99 8:50:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< What is the largest possible hull. Would a 10,000,000 ton battle tender be
 >possible. It would be open frame and unstreamlined, the perpose to carry a
 >complete fleet of riders and support craft. Useful for big battle but
 >useless for frontier patrol/piracy patrol. Comments etc?
 
 You can build as large as you want, but you quickly begin to run into major
 problems in surface area.  Big ships need lots of power, which needs lots
 of surface area for radiators.
 
 I did a million-man colonist vessel.. that was about 5 Mdt IIRC. >>

I did a HG 1Mton battlerider tender. She carried LOTS of riders...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:30:03 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

In a message dated 3/21/99 12:01:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
goldendj@pcisys.net writes:

<< Or, have Ditzie hunt down and ... de-exist ... Roger Sanger (who
 bought DGP, and is apparently being irrational about licensing it),
 and then talk to his heirs ...
  >>

just make sure that the FBI knows that "Ditzie" is a fictional person. Ask
Steve Jackson; he'll tell you how much sense of humor the feds have....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:31:20 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

In a message dated 3/21/99 12:08:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< Watch out, you wouldn't want Doug to throw his weight (!) around by telling
 you your posts aren't on-topic.
  >>

Well; it IS off topic; but I'm as guilty as everyone else...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:36:11 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

In a message dated 3/21/99 3:35:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<<  Us Canucks filled the holds with timber...  pre-soaked. >>

I thought that waterlogged wood doesn't float?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:01:29 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship Classes

In regards to the Bismark, it was a torpedo dropped from a Fairey Swordfish
(an obsolescent carrier based biplane) that damaged the ship's rudder,
allowing the British Capital ships to arrive and pound it to pieces.  IIRC,
several destroyers did succeed in inflicting several additional torpedo hits
prior to it finally sinking.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:01:24 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/21/99 12:01:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> goldendj@pcisys.net writes:
> 
> << Or, have Ditzie hunt down and ... de-exist ... Roger Sanger (who
>  bought DGP, and is apparently being irrational about licensing it),
>  and then talk to his heirs ...
>   >>
> 
> just make sure that the FBI knows that "Ditzie" is a fictional person. Ask
> Steve Jackson; he'll tell you how much sense of humor the feds have....

I had the distinct pleasure of gaming with Steve Jackson at CoastCon
this weekend (the Lego Pirate Game).  Today, at a panel discussion, he
was wearing a t-shirt that read, in part, "Steve 1, Secret Service 0." 
At least _one_ of the two parties involved in that mess has a sense of
humor....

(BTW, I also had the pleasure of getting Evil Stevie's autograph... in a
copy of the SJG edition of _Principia Discordia_.  He thanked me for my
help in running the Lego Pirate Game.  ~walking on air, with a big ol'
grin ~)  

ObTrav:  What would be the most likely security agency, in the 3I circa
1100, to pull something like the SS raid on SJG?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:09:11 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

> just make sure that the FBI knows that "Ditzie" is a fictional person. Ask
> Steve Jackson; he'll tell you how much sense of humor the feds have....

"We at the FBI do not have any sense of humor that we're aware of"

(paraphrased from MIB)

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:44:43 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/21/99 3:35:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
> 
> <<  Us Canucks filled the holds with timber...  pre-soaked. >>
> 
> I thought that waterlogged wood doesn't float?
> 

	Douglas fir, is ever-so-slightly-more than neutrally boyant when
waterlogged.  It also will not burn worth a damn, but will produce
horrible amounts of smoke trying...
	So, U-Boat slugs the Q-Ship with its deck gun at the waterline,
and is gratified to see great gouts of white smoke pooring out the cargo
hatches in short order.  The they get the nasty surprise....

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:58:33 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Alternate weapon systems. Was: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

IN TML 321 "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>

>>Michel Vaillancourt writes:
>>"Unfortuantely during one crucial engagement, the missile racks turn
>>out to be loaded with paint rounds for target practice...."
>>
>>Always with the negative waves, Michel!
>>
>>:)
>Ian
<<UNSNIP>>
>
>
>What does paint do to sensors?  (Hint: many aircraft and ships, plus
>ground-based radomes, have "DO NOT PAINT" on them for a reason...

I've used (MTU) a veriation on this, the Wideangle Heavy Attack Microwave
(WHAM) Cannon and one use pulse missiles (WHAM Shots) the principle was to
blind, usually slowly by frying the sensor arrrays of opposing ships. The
physics was wobbly (if not ignored) and degrading effects relied on sensor
locks being required before fireing.

If anyone can gear head a toy (pwease Miz Ditzie) I'd love to see it on the
list.


Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:58:39 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

In TML 323, David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote.

>At 10:28 am 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>David J. Golden wrote:
>>       ISTR reading somewhere that the Q-Ships of WWII used this. A Q-Ship
>>was an armed merchantman, masquerading as a unarmed merchantman in a
>>convoy. Idea was, Nazi raiders sneak in for a turkey shoot, and find
>>themselves wearing the feathers ...
>>
>>       Anyway, take your average Liberty ship, fill the hold with ping-pong
>>balls, and tie down guns on the deck ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Worked great, nearly unsinkable.
>>
>>Note that ping-pong balls are really, really flammable.
>
>       Do tell ... are they filled with something cool, or is it just the
>plastic shell?

Unitll recently ping-pong balls were made of two thin celluloide shells.
Celluloide is/was much more flamable than modern plastics (ref Clif's
pyrotecnic TML 320). The volume of air (oxygen) to celluloide (Carbon) on a
carton (or ships hold)of ping-pong balls cica 1940 is a relatively poor
explosive, but great site for a fire.


Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:10:31 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

AveNelso@aol.com types on his weasel powered keyboard:
>        The Imperium would never need such a thing as "Black Ops".  Honrable 
>people
>act above board.   I am insulted at such a suggestion.
>                        The Old Marquis

   A proper Gentlemen knows when "not to see" and "not to hear."



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. 
That's our story and we're sticking to it.  
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:19:43 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Given how useful they've proved several times in the "modern, limited
> conflict" warfare, I wonder if there might not be some value to
> consider building a few BBNs. I think you need at least three to unsure
> that you could have continuous coverage of an area by a Battle Group (1
> on station, one in transit, 1 being repaired or in reserve).
> 
Rather than duplicate effort, I recommend that you check the
sci.military.naval newsgroup on DejaNews.  You'll find quite an
extensive discussion on this and related subjects.  The bottom line is,
few (more accurately: no) informed naval analysts will state, given the
current naval combat environment, that a ship armed with
battleship-sized guns is cost-effective as new construction.  A few
folks will (reluctantly) suggest that the IOWAs, since they are already
built (and modernized), are sufficiently useful to keep on standby in
the Naval Reserve.  (TravRef: the Mothball Fleet).

In Traveller, fighters (and thus carriers) are of minor importance in
major fleet actions, ship spinal mount guns can reach hundreds of
thousands of kilometers in a couple of seconds, and missiles are of
secondary importance in capital-ship combat (due to PD lasers,
sandcasters, nuclear dampers, and distance).

Find a way to accelerate fighters to at least 10x the average speed of a
fleet (in World War II terms, 200 knots versus 20 knots), and
Traveller's combat assumptions will change as radically as they did
during World War II. 

I wouldn't suggest, however, that you use Traveller combat assumptions
to decide what forces would be useful in Milieu:  AD 2000.

<<snip>>
> 
> OBtrav. There will be situations where a world will be ordering ships
> that will be built at high TLs but designed to be operated & maintained
> at lower TLs (silly example: you are trading with a planet at 1600s TL,
> what sort of ships will you sell their wet navy?). What parts of the
> ship do you use the high TL for, and which do you use the lower TL for?
> 
> I think the hull and internal structure might as well be the high TL,
> as major damage requires a shipyard regardless, and any repairs made in
> the field would be makeshift anyway.  Weapons definitely need to be
> lower TL, simply because they require *lots* of maintenance.

I figure that, to maintained at a lower TL, a starship should be built
to within a TL or so of the supporting TL.  (That's why, in my ref's TU,
the TL13 BROOKLYN-class cruiser is new construction in the M:1100
Spinward Marches.) 

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:28:55 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>>This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???
>
>Somehow, with the attitudes often displayed on this list, I'm not wholly
>surprised that female posters are few and far between.

The level does seem to have sunk while I was (briefly) on holiday. :-(

At the risk of making an overly personal observation, I'll note that no
matter which of the two mental pictures you have of "Ditzie", the
character is still a minor. Some of you may recall how snappish I was
earlier this year, and the reason. (Nasty case of child abuse, for you
newcomers.)  There's something about the tone of some of the remarks that
I've seen that reminds of that case.

Now, I'm fully aware that you are discussing an imaginary character, and
yes, I understand the difference between reality and fantasy. 

But could you PLEASE not fantasize about this topic anymore?  

(I'd really like to keep the nightmares safely buried until summertime,
when I've got time to deal with them permanently.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:36:12 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Q-Ships

David J. Golden wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>	Anyway, take your average Liberty ship, fill the hold with
ping-pong
>balls, and tie down guns on the deck ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Worked great, nearly unsinkable.
>
>Note that ping-pong balls are really, really flammable.

	Do tell ... are they filled with something cool, or is it just the
plastic shell?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They're filled with air - the shell is a very thin plastic that bounces nice,
but is very *NOT* fireproof. 

Generally not a big deal if the problem is a cracked hull from torpedo hits,
but if the torpedo hit somehow caused a fire - or if the Q-ship were attacked
by a deck gun or aircraft cannon - you probably weren't putting the fire out
in time for it to matter.

This is third hand from a WW2 convoy escort captain to my US Coast
Guard uncle to me, so may be innacurate.

ObTrav: While a Q-Ship may be a nightmare for an ethically-challenged
merchant, she'll be a worse nightmare for her own crew once her
Captain forgets she's *not* a warship.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:40:37 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

In a message dated 3/21/99 5:08:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wombat@premier.net writes:

<< ObTrav:  What would be the most likely security agency, in the 3I circa
 1100, to pull something like the SS raid on SJG?
  >>

I would say the IMOJ, or maybe IRIS if it involves a threat to the safety of
the Imperial family...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:42:15 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

In a message dated 3/21/99 5:48:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<< Douglas fir, is ever-so-slightly-more than neutrally boyant when
 waterlogged.  It also will not burn worth a damn, but will produce
 horrible amounts of smoke trying...
 	So, U-Boat slugs the Q-Ship with its deck gun at the waterline,
 and is gratified to see great gouts of white smoke pooring out the cargo
 hatches in short order.  The they get the nasty surprise....
  >>

LOL! Brilliant...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:52:26 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>The lesson the Americans learned, and continued to apply was that
>high casulties in the short run are worth the cost since the war will be
>over
>sooner and the total casulties will in fact be lower.

Hmm.

The Imperium seems to rely on early delaying actions, followed by massive
retaliation supported by both technological and logistical superiority.  

From what I recall, Imperial strategy seemed to be fairly direct during
most wars. Rather in the nature of (1) assemble your forces, (2) head
straight for the enemy and beat him.  This seems to be backed up by the
battle rider doctrine.

The Zhodani, OTOH, seem to be pursuing an indirect strategy (although
their goal is not what the Imperium thinks it is).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:16:42 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: re: Ship Classes

From:           	"Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Date sent:      	Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:21:53 -0500

>I see.

>Well, you can't expect me to put a spinal mount in a fighter now, 
>can you? <G>

Cmdr X where are you :*>

>Minor error - colored by my recollections of destroyer actions against
>capital ships in WW2. Didn't Bismark eat a critical torpedo hit from a
>british destroyer? Not enough to sink it, but effectively a mission-kill.

I know this is OT and has been replied to several times. Bear with me and
I'll bring it kicking and screaming back to Traveller.

Bismark was hit by an aerial torpedo from a Fairey Swordfish that crippled
her stearing gear and enabled the Home fleet to catch and pummel her.
Now one of the main reasons why the Swordfish was able to score the hit
was because Bismark's radar controlled AA guns were calibrated for a
minimum target speed of 100 knots. However the venerable old Swordfish
was an obsolete biplane (TL 5 Vs TL 6) and made its attack run at a speed
of less than 100 knots (around 80 IIRC). Now to drag the topic KaS back to
Traveller, just how often do high tech forces get themselves into this sort of
situation. Imagine if you will the Imperial Marine with his/her FGMP-14 and
battledress with advanced sensors. Along comes your TL 3 guerilla with
his/her rifled musket, triangular socket bayonet, paint bomb and a few human
looking local critter decoys...


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:43:31 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

>>>This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???
>>
>>Somehow, with the attitudes often displayed on this list, I'm not wholly
>>surprised that female posters are few and far between.

I've been offline for a few weeks as I prepared for the switch to the new
ISP, but yes, there are women on the list.

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:57:27 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Ditzie, FTML'ers, and an apology.

Well put Rob.  I'm afraid I inadvertantly caused a bit of a ruckus.
Hindsight and all but I wish I'd known the "in" joke before my first post -
the fact that Ditzie's actually just a little kid.  That would have
prevented alot of that.

I'm sticking with the little Ditzie as she's alot like my kid sister Erin
(who's now not such a kid anymore) and there's alot more potential for just
good ol' comic relief instead of fueling the (mentally) adolescent fatansies
of a few members of the TML.

On a positive note, I did get a personal e-mail from a female TML'er whose
name I shall protect (I've always had an anacrhonistic streak of chivalry in
the modern screwed up world).  To directly quote her "I think your
characterisation was great. I've always seen Ditzie as a wide-eyed angelic
pyschotic maniac."  I couldn't have put it better myself :)  I hope everyone
on the list can just sit back and enjoy the Ditzie stuff I've done (and the
FS press releases posted by Ian) at their face value, as a good little
chuckle between flame wars.

OK Ditzie, you can put the particle accelerator away now....


Best,
Jesse



Rob Prior wrote:
>The level does seem to have sunk while I was (briefly) on holiday. :-(
>
>At the risk of making an overly personal observation, I'll note that no
>matter which of the two mental pictures you have of "Ditzie", the
>character is still a minor. Some of you may recall how snappish I was
>earlier this year, and the reason. (Nasty case of child abuse, for you
>newcomers.)  There's something about the tone of some of the remarks that
>I've seen that reminds of that case.
>
>Now, I'm fully aware that you are discussing an imaginary character, and
>yes, I understand the difference between reality and fantasy.
>
>But could you PLEASE not fantasize about this topic anymore?
>
>(I'd really like to keep the nightmares safely buried until summertime,
>when I've got time to deal with them permanently.)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:02:41 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in your
life.  A cat-call (I didn't see anything worse) at a cartoon that someone
said was of her at age 16 (looks like mid-20's, to me) is hardly cause for
you to stifle our fun and entertainment.

Sure, abuse is ugly and I don't know what has gone on in your life, but
there are surely people there who can help you with it.  I, for one, am not
going to walk on eggshells and put on a sleeveless sweater and a bow tie and
glasses just because of someone else's problems when they won't seek help.

No one here is advocating child molestation.

==Clif

>
>At the risk of making an overly personal observation, I'll note that no
>matter which of the two mental pictures you have of "Ditzie", the
>character is still a minor. Some of you may recall how snappish I was
>earlier this year, and the reason. (Nasty case of child abuse, for you
>newcomers.)  There's something about the tone of some of the remarks that
>I've seen that reminds of that case.
>

Yeah, and Joseph the Carpenter was a child molester, too.  Get real.

>Now, I'm fully aware that you are discussing an imaginary character, and
>yes, I understand the difference between reality and fantasy.
>
>But could you PLEASE not fantasize about this topic anymore?
>
>(I'd really like to keep the nightmares safely buried until summertime,
>when I've got time to deal with them permanently.)


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:49:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Dizie Does Gauss Guns - correct version

In mail you write:

> Uncieeee ....
>
> We've finished it. Weeeee reckon-weckon it's a pretty-weety neato caaaaan
> opener, an an an the weaaaapon itself is pretty-weety small (not really
> weaallly Barbie-sized PAAAAAAAAAAWWWW size, but small for tankie-wankies).
> But the battery-wattery an an an the accumulator-wumulator bankie is
> preeeety big.

Have you written up the Lex specs for "ditzie speak"? You should. It'll
save you time, and the filter would be fun for everyone.

As to the "indirect fire" role of the weapon, the high muzzle velocity
is going to set *severe* restrictions on its use. Those rounds are
travelling at half of Earth orbital velocity. 

Work out the range at 45 degrees. Also work out the peak altitude
reached and the total flight time. Then try the same calcs for 70 or 80
degrees (true "plunging fire"). I suspect that the flight time will be
excessive. And that the peak altitude will be such that low orbital
installations are in danger.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:35:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Grav tank tactics

It occurs to me that "homing" on a CG field should be even easier than
homing on a flying blowtorch (aka jet plane). 

In fact, I suspect that CG may even allow a unique form of "terminal
guidance. Set up the right kind of "field" in the missile, and the
tanks CG could *attract* it. 

Luckily, I doubt that the power requirements would be low enough for
this to affect terminal velocity much. 

On the other hand, such an "anti-CG" coil would make a lovely way to
boobytrap an LZ or an approach to one. Basicly anyplace where the grav
tank is going to be relatively close to the ground, especially if it's
moving fast. 

In such a situation, having the CG act as if it was *attracting* the
ground could be nasty. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:03:25 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

>> While I've seen the new ones, I also liked the teen-aged one, and my
browser
>>ate the cache file (#!@#! AOL). Is there any way of getting that picture
>>directly?
>
>On a Mac, drag the picture to the desktop from the browser window. On a PC,
>right click on the image, and select save image. IE may do things
>differently from Navigator 4.

 Actually, AOL's internal browser is an older IE, and has this "amusing"
format it drops some graphics into when saving them to cache:
AOL "ART". These files can be either GIFs or JPEGs originally, but
the AOL cache version is unopenable in anything but AOL. I hate
to debase Jesse's work by screen-shotting it and recropping,
which is why I asked.

>
>And check Jesse is happy with you downloading them ;-)

 If people aren't printing my deckplans and using them in Traveller
games, then I'm wasting my webspace...

>
>Dom


GypsyComet (two birds and the guy who types for them)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #324
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 325



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Doctor Bull lives?
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Apologies my Ass!
Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Don't be crass!
New Sulieman shots up
Re: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al
Re: mostly Grav tanks (certified free of Ditzie-speak)
Re: mostly Grav tanks (certified free of Ditzie-speak)
Re: New Sulieman shots up
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
max accel
Max Accel
BayCon
Re: Ditzie
Re: The Green Berets
Re: Ditzie, FTML'ers, and an apology.
Re: A Traveller Products CD
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:05:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Doctor Bull lives?

In mail you write:

>>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>>Subject: FS FwdObsvr Ops (was Re: Grav tank tactics)
> ...
>>        Speed up and spread out?  Nope.  Those rounds are rolling in at
>>4000m/sec every 1.5 seconds.  The guy with the painter is under camo with
> ...
>
>   I may have missed something in Ditzie's original specs (and just why is
> she channelling for a second millenium canuck, anyway?), but a kinetic
> penetrator keeping the majority of its' energy at the end of a maximum 
> ballistic run through an atmosphere sounds distinctly like a game mechanism
> being pushed well past breaking point.

Don't forget that for "high angle" fire very little of the trajectory
is actually *in* the atmosphere!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:17:56 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

At 11:02 PM 3/21/99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in your
>life.  A cat-call (I didn't see anything worse) at a cartoon that someone
>said was of her at age 16 (looks like mid-20's, to me) is hardly cause for
>you to stifle our fun and entertainment.

Gee, I see nothings changed while I've been off the list.  The nice people
are still nice and the rude people are still rude.

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:23:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Apologies my Ass!

>
>I'm sticking with the little Ditzie as she's alot like my kid sister Erin
>(who's now not such a kid anymore) and there's alot more potential for just
>good ol' comic relief instead of fueling the (mentally) adolescent
fatansies
>of a few members of the TML.

Including your own, Jesse.  YOU drew the pic!  : )  It's really STUPID to be
putting down "mentally adolescent fantasies" on a mailing list about a
Role-playing game.

Face it!  Gamers are geeks!  You're a geek!  I'm a geek!  (I know, Dough,
you're not a geek.  You're a big he-man, bad-ass, etc., etc., who still
can't find it in himself to crack on himself now and then.)  What the hell
are we really doing wasting are time on this game, anyway?  If we can't
fantasize and escape and have a little fun, what the hell good is the game
in the first place?

That's what makes Jesse one of the nicest people on the list.  He doesn't
take himself too seriously.

- --Clif

P.S.:  Is there any relation to Ditzammer and the Katzenjammer kids?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:25:24 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

> Actually, AOL's internal browser is an older IE, and has this "amusing"
>format it drops some graphics into when saving them to cache:
>AOL "ART". These files can be either GIFs or JPEGs originally, but
>the AOL cache version is unopenable in anything but AOL. I hate
>to debase Jesse's work by screen-shotting it and recropping,
>which is why I asked.



ThumbsPlus will do it as well.  I love the program and use it extensively in
my web prep work, as well as for selecting wallpapers, and just plain
all-around graphics management.  You can try it out at www.cerious.com.  If
you try it, you'll wanna' buy it like I did!!!!

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:24:27 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

Dr. Joy-Joy Clif recommends:
: Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in
your
: life.

Very tactful, very nice.  What can you recommend for a hangnail, dude?
Should I just hack the finger off and stop crying about it?

ObTrav: The ship's medic is a total hack with the bedside manner of
Clint Eastwood, but since he is also the Captain's favorite nephew what
extremes will the PCs go to in order to remain healthy?


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:33:51 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Don't be crass!

[begin sopbox]

I'll only say this once, and I hope everyone else will refrain from igniting
another "I hate Clif" thread.

Clif, grow up and join human race.  Your manners are atrocious, and your
lack of feelings for another person's concerns (let alone a fellow TML'er)
are truly frightening.

You've actually had *some* really great input lately, not to mention you
were basically the one (if I'm not mistaken) who created the idea for the
Web Sector Project.  Don't blow it like this!  Keep the good ideas coming.
If you feel the need to write a post like this, fine-go ahead and write it
as your impulse control is about as good as mine.  JUST DON'T SEND IT!!!
Some of my co-workers and I do this all the time at work just so we can vent
over some of the idiots that we're forced to deal with.  Then we send it to
each other, laugh, and then draft a PROPER reply.

If you feel a need to vent over this message I've written, please reply to
me directly at fenris@slip.net and spare the list.  Thanks!!

[end soapbox]


Best Regards,
Jesse


>Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in your
>life.  A cat-call (I didn't see anything worse) at a cartoon that someone
>said was of her at age 16 (looks like mid-20's, to me) is hardly cause for
>you to stifle our fun and entertainment.
>
>Sure, abuse is ugly and I don't know what has gone on in your life, but
>there are surely people there who can help you with it.  I, for one, am not
>going to walk on eggshells and put on a sleeveless sweater and a bow tie
and
>glasses just because of someone else's problems when they won't seek help.
>
>No one here is advocating child molestation.
>
>Yeah, and Joseph the Carpenter was a child molester, too.  Get real.
>
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:49:14 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: New Sulieman shots up

Thank you one and all for all of the feedback for the Sulieman profile
survey.  Due to overwhelming demand, I said to hell with the geometry and
re-did the ship more along the lines of the CT version.  As many pointed
out, this is with the handwave that the lower deck floor slopes up, and the
upper deck ceiling slopes down.  I've posted three seperate shots for the
TML, all are 1024x768 and of high quality (as compared to maximum).

Best regards and thanks again!!!
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:32:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al
...
>Find a way to accelerate fighters to at least 10x the average speed of a
>fleet (in World War II terms, 200 knots versus 20 knots), and
>Traveller's combat assumptions will change as radically as they did
>during World War II. 

  You could probably build a missile with some useful space combat duration
at 40-80 G's, but I don't see how that would change a small crafts striking
power or ability to dodge laser fire at close ranges.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:24:09 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: mostly Grav tanks (certified free of Ditzie-speak)

>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
>Subject: Re: FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual 
>
>Ah, I remember way back when she was just a wee tyke working in
>Compliance, writing memos to Ungle Hengie and asking for more yellow
>pills.  How she's grown!
>
>Kenji
>

As her percentage of FS' output has increased, she's been assuming promotions.

Remember, there are TML subscribers who only know of Hengabar Sofulam as
Ditzie's boss :)

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
>
>> Like I said earlier, I'd expect most TL9 and up AFVs to have integral point
>> defense.
>
>And that's where I put my foot in my mouth saying it wasn't probably
needed by
>anything other than perhaps a dedicated pd vehicle.  It largely stands
against
>conventional arty, but of course FS was left out of my ruminations.  ;-)

Even without obscenities like the FS Gauss Gun (and I'm still not convinced
it's an effective artillery weapon - any sane power plant will take yonks
to repower the 170 ton battery pack), there are still enough ATGMs floating
around a TL9 battlefield to make at least a 20mm high ROF autocannon plus a
small radar/ladar a good investment.

The way I look at it, at TL6 naval missiles became common, and at TL7 big
ships started to get point defense. Now, at TL8, it's on virtually every
'real' naval ship.

Now, an effective land point defense system has to be smaller and better,
because ground vehicles and missiles are smaller.

I'd be interested to see how a ZSU or equivalent would do against TOW and
similar, if it's radar could be tweaked enough to deal with ground clutter.
Something like FLIR could actually be better than radar, die to a lack of
ground clutter effects.

>Very good question.  Would depend on teh time, range and weapon system I
would
>think.  Course TL9 should be pretty advanced, though a phalanx type thing
>might be required.  Something like the IVIS system immediately turning an
>appropriate weapon system on target of an incoming doesn't seem preposterous
>to me for TL 9.  YMMV. 

My guess is 'not often' at TL9, 'probably' at TL10 and 'yes' at TL11.

This will basically make solid rounds workable at TL9, obsolescent at TL10
and obsolete at TL11, which is the way I feel it should be.

You might want to look at the FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun for an idea of what
you can do at TL12 in the way of a point defense weapon.

>> The FS gauss gun is designed to put about 16 rounds out in that period.
>
>Maybe in T4...in TNE's 5 second combat rounds, most good combat vehicles
has a
>SA5 *per fire action* (up to 5/round).  On a standard semi auto ROF,
that'd be
>4 shots in 20 seconds.  On full bore, it's 20 in that same period of time.

I'd be interested in seeing the power demand for energy weapons firing at
60 rpm.

CPR guns, yeah the ROF numbers in FFS2 are too low.

>
>From lasers?  Given space combat ranges, the distance is small fries.  The
>others could have an effect, but given the distance probably not a large
>one...

The problem isnt the range, it's the refraction from differing densities in
the atmosphere and so on. If you are trying to plug individual tanks from
orbit, then 5 meters out with a laser just doesnt cut it.

Cloud cover will also limit you, and chew up rather a lot of power.

>
>> The other issue that has to be regarded in 'good wars' is the Imperial
>> guidelines against making war in space.
>
>Hmm?

One of the themes of the Imperial Rules of War is 'No-one makes War in
space but us'. How broad or narrow this is depends on who's interpreting
the deliberately loose guidelines.

This isnt an issue in TNE, but then again TNE doesnt interest me.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:24:09 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: mostly Grav tanks (certified free of Ditzie-speak)

>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
>Subject: Re: FS and Gridlore - slugging it out on the Low Road as usual 
>
>Ah, I remember way back when she was just a wee tyke working in
>Compliance, writing memos to Ungle Hengie and asking for more yellow
>pills.  How she's grown!
>
>Kenji
>

As her percentage of FS' output has increased, she's been assuming promotions.

Remember, there are TML subscribers who only know of Hengabar Sofulam as
Ditzie's boss :)

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat
>
>> Like I said earlier, I'd expect most TL9 and up AFVs to have integral point
>> defense.
>
>And that's where I put my foot in my mouth saying it wasn't probably
needed by
>anything other than perhaps a dedicated pd vehicle.  It largely stands
against
>conventional arty, but of course FS was left out of my ruminations.  ;-)

Even without obscenities like the FS Gauss Gun (and I'm still not convinced
it's an effective artillery weapon - any sane power plant will take yonks
to repower the 170 ton battery pack), there are still enough ATGMs floating
around a TL9 battlefield to make at least a 20mm high ROF autocannon plus a
small radar/ladar a good investment.

The way I look at it, at TL6 naval missiles became common, and at TL7 big
ships started to get point defense. Now, at TL8, it's on virtually every
'real' naval ship.

Now, an effective land point defense system has to be smaller and better,
because ground vehicles and missiles are smaller.

I'd be interested to see how a ZSU or equivalent would do against TOW and
similar, if it's radar could be tweaked enough to deal with ground clutter.
Something like FLIR could actually be better than radar, die to a lack of
ground clutter effects.

>Very good question.  Would depend on teh time, range and weapon system I
would
>think.  Course TL9 should be pretty advanced, though a phalanx type thing
>might be required.  Something like the IVIS system immediately turning an
>appropriate weapon system on target of an incoming doesn't seem preposterous
>to me for TL 9.  YMMV. 

My guess is 'not often' at TL9, 'probably' at TL10 and 'yes' at TL11.

This will basically make solid rounds workable at TL9, obsolescent at TL10
and obsolete at TL11, which is the way I feel it should be.

You might want to look at the FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun for an idea of what
you can do at TL12 in the way of a point defense weapon.

>> The FS gauss gun is designed to put about 16 rounds out in that period.
>
>Maybe in T4...in TNE's 5 second combat rounds, most good combat vehicles
has a
>SA5 *per fire action* (up to 5/round).  On a standard semi auto ROF,
that'd be
>4 shots in 20 seconds.  On full bore, it's 20 in that same period of time.

I'd be interested in seeing the power demand for energy weapons firing at
60 rpm.

CPR guns, yeah the ROF numbers in FFS2 are too low.

>
>From lasers?  Given space combat ranges, the distance is small fries.  The
>others could have an effect, but given the distance probably not a large
>one...

The problem isnt the range, it's the refraction from differing densities in
the atmosphere and so on. If you are trying to plug individual tanks from
orbit, then 5 meters out with a laser just doesnt cut it.

Cloud cover will also limit you, and chew up rather a lot of power.

>
>> The other issue that has to be regarded in 'good wars' is the Imperial
>> guidelines against making war in space.
>
>Hmm?

One of the themes of the Imperial Rules of War is 'No-one makes War in
space but us'. How broad or narrow this is depends on who's interpreting
the deliberately loose guidelines.

This isnt an issue in TNE, but then again TNE doesnt interest me.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:05:13 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: New Sulieman shots up

>Thank you one and all for all of the feedback for the Sulieman profile
>survey.  Due to overwhelming demand, I said to hell with the geometry and
>re-did the ship more along the lines of the CT version.  As many pointed
>out, this is with the handwave that the lower deck floor slopes up, and the
>upper deck ceiling slopes down.  I've posted three seperate shots for the
>TML, all are 1024x768 and of high quality (as compared to maximum).

Fantastic shots!  That scout base is really cool, I like the fact that the
hangers look almost like something out of WWII, and not all High Tech like
the ships themselves!

Glad to see you went for the classic geometry!  I've always loved that
shape for a ship, dating back to what I suspect are it's origins in "Planet
of the Apes".

Any chance of you doing some future ones in 1280x1024 :^)  All my systems
have that size desktops and I'd love to use one of your shots for a desktop
picture!

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:00:36 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

From:           	"Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Date sent:      	Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:02:41 -0500

>Sure, abuse is ugly and I don't know what has gone on in your life, but
>there are surely people there who can help you with it.  I, for one, am not
>going to walk on eggshells and put on a sleeveless sweater and a bow tie and
>glasses just because of someone else's problems when they won't seek help.

Okay this was totally uncalled for. Rob is a teacher and by all accounts is
dealing with a nasty case of abuse involving one of his students. Abuse is
a nasty brutish thing that leaves everyone touched by it scared. Rob has
asked politely that a particular topic of discussion be dropped for personal
reasons. Nobody is asking you to walk on eggshells, somebody is asking
for people to show a little common decency and respect. I work with abuse
surviors and perpertrators and it ain't fun,in fact its a shitty fucking disgusting
mess. And everyday you get to deal with ignorant attitudes and just
sometimes it gets too much and you ask for the those misinformed
attitudes to please shut up.

>No one here is advocating child molestation.

I know you honestly believe what you just said, and a lot if not all
of the people here would agree with you, but you're wrong. You may
not be advocating child abuse, but your (and lots of other people
here) attitudes are helping to make abuse possible.

Okay, so this had nothing to do with Traveller, and I've probably gone
more than a little over the top with my rant. But sometimes the shit
gets to you.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 01:35:42 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: max accel

Ok, I'm in a quandary.  Looking at the COACC rules, it seems that using the
good ole' Fusion Rocket, I can easily design small craft with (maintainable)
accelerations of over (way, way over...) 6G.  What's up?  I assume that
maybe inertial compensators are limited to 6G, thus preventing manned craft
from exceeding the 6G barrier, but what's to stop building a ship-killer
missile?  Even accounting for relatavistic effects, I find it relatively
easy to obtain .1C+ velocities in a reasonable time.  For example, before
relativity rears it's ugly head, a 100G missile accelerating for only one
20-minute HG turn will reach a whopping (V=1/2AT^2)
(7.056*10^8m/s=[.5][9.8m/s/s][100][1200sec][1200sec]) 705,600km/sec, or
roughly 2.5C.  Now, off the top of my head, I can't recall the formula for
relativity, so could someone either come up with that or perhaps show me the
error in my (rusty) astrophysics.  BTW, the "warhead" on this missile is a
cast-iron harpoon.  Why bother with anything more"deadly"?

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com
Sorry, that's all the sig you get.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 01:50:08 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Max Accel

OOps, a slight miscalculation, it must be past my bedtime... But anyway, a
missile consisting of a fusion rocket, a (very) little fuel, and a (very)
simple guidance package, and NO warhead, is easily capaple of 30G, and
before relatavistic effects, would be easily capable of reaching near-light
velocities in a very short time- in fact, about 25 minutes of constant
accel.  Hitting something would be tricky, but the price (around Mcr .4,
before mass-production discounts and the like) is ok, and the effects of a
hit, well, devestating.  Note that anti-planet use is limited by size of the
missile- about 5-6 tons, displacement of about  ?

Anyway, definitely not canon.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 01:05:33 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: BayCon

Well, guys I'll be there.

She left today taking one thing I value most, my Son.
nowarning no number.

Pray chant think good thoughts that she drops the Ben off at the
sitters
tomorrow I'll pick him up.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:50:27 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ditzie

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun
>
>Awwww, that wasn't in Ditzie Speak... I've been waiting to hear from her now
>that I know she is this cool weapon's testing girl rather than a drag-queen
>strung out on drugs.

Clif, those two things are not contradictory.

And, yes, she is rather strung out on pharmecuticals ... the FS solution to
the 'Two Hundred Barrier'.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:24:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

At 03:00 PM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>TML Great Old One
>>Plaque of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
>>Chant "Skidmore" thrice to summon.

Clif:

1.  My first name is spelled "Doug", not "Dough".

2.  Please refrain from altering my .sig files.  It is immature.

3.  Have you looked in the forums I mentioned for info about the book?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 06:13:14 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Ditzie, FTML'ers, and an apology.

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> writes:
>Well put Rob.  I'm afraid I inadvertantly caused a bit of a ruckus.
>Hindsight and all but I wish I'd known the "in" joke before my first post
>-
>the fact that Ditzie's actually just a little kid.  That would have
>prevented alot of that.

You didn't know, and the pictures were great.
>
>I'm sticking with the little Ditzie as she's alot like my kid sister Erin
>(who's now not such a kid anymore) and there's alot more potential for
>just
>good ol' comic relief instead of fueling the (mentally) adolescent
>fatansies
>of a few members of the TML.

As well, she better fits Ian's mental picture :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:39:46 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: A Traveller Products CD

At 19:01 21/03/1999 -0600, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:

>ObTrav:  What would be the most likely security agency, in the 3I circa
>1100, to pull something like the SS raid on SJG?

The Office of Calendar Compliance because it does not use "proper" units
of measurement.

Or the IISS for confusing everyone about tech levels.

;-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:14:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

In mail you write:

> One nice trick with a ping pong ball is to bore a hole in one big enough for
> a kitchen matchhead to fit through.  Cut off kitchen matchheads (blue-tip, I
> think) and put them into the ball into it is cram-packed.  a piece of tape
> over the hole will do.
>
> Slam the ping pong ball down on the cement a couple of meters away at night.
>
> Viola!  Your own mini-firework!  (there will probably be a one or two second
> delay after impact that will make you think that it didn't go off.  I
> haven't had any fail to go off, yet.)

AIIIIEEEEE!!!!

This is a really, *really* BAD IDEA. Under even moderate "compression"
match-heads have been known to self-ignite. At least you are using a
ping-pong ball, not a used CO2 cartridge. So you'll only have 2nd & 3rd
degree burns to worry about, not shrapnel, and blast effects.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:18:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

In mail you write:

> Clif have you ever done time?  At work, we're always preventing the Inmates
> from "hoarding" matches for just the same reason.

Out of curiousity, how did you arrive at the "contraband" list? Is
there some sort of "standard" list floating around, or has it been
compiled from experience at your location only?

If there's a standard list, it might be interesting to post it just to
show the sort of stuff that *can* be dangerous in the wrong hands. 

Here's an interesting one that *should* work, but I won't swear to it...

	Ammonia
	drain cleaner (non-lye-based)
	sugar

Your mission is to determine *how* I can cause trouble with the above. :-)
And here's a moldy oldy:
	Antiseptic
	ammonia


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:44:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns

In mail you write:

> Ohh, and as we are talking guass weapons:
> Why doesn't velocity effect the gun barrel in terms of weight even
> slighty. Some thing like Wt = Cal^2*Vel/60=92000 (tons) maybe.

Because the barrel is a simple "guide tube". Unlike a gun barrel, it
doesn't have to withstand huge pressures. 

Depending on whether the weapon is a "rail" gun or a "coil" gun, there
may or may not be extra bracing needed to resist the "recoil" of
accelerating the projectile. But this doesn't need as much mass as a
regular gun barrel. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #325
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 326



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns
Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot
Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns
re: Ship Classes
Re: Ditzie, FTML'ers, and an apology.
Re: Ship Classes
1-900-TRAVLER (was Female TMLers?)
older Traveller stuff
X-TEK Press Release
C-Plus Cannon?!
Re: older Traveller stuff
Game log posted.
Re: Apologies my Ass!
The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
Relic starships on planet surface
Re: Relic starships on planet surface
Re: New Sulieman shots up
Re: Apologies my Ass!
Re: Don't be crass!
Minor race: Komodani (long)
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:28:06 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

Aye!

I also vote for younger Ditzie with gun from older-Ditzie pic.

Regards PLST

"The universe ... the ultimate violation of the law of
Conservation of Matter/Energy!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:57:51 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns

>Depending on whether the weapon is a "rail" gun or a "coil" gun, there
>may or may not be extra bracing needed to resist the "recoil" of
>accelerating the projectile. But this doesn't need as much mass as a
>regular gun barrel.

Why would there be a difference between a coil gun and a rail gun in terms
of recoil stress on the launch tube? Electromangnetic forces act upon the
bullet to accelerate it to V and thus imparts an equal but opposite
direction momentum in both cases.

Maybe the coilgun does most of the acceleration at a shorter time?


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:19:31 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie for Official TML Spokescartoon/Mascot

On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:59:23 -0700 "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
writes:
>*weg*   Though the younger version reminds me of my daughter.
>
>>JimC
>
>
>Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart


Yep, the frightening part is, the little one is an awful lot like my 6
year old, Katie.  Or, as she is wont to tell you when in her nasty mode,
"My name is Kat'erine!"

Oh, my!  Now I'm really gonna have nightmares!

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:46:40 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns

>>Ohh, and as we are talking guass weapons:
>>Why doesn't velocity effect the gun barrel in terms of weight even 
>>slighty. Some thing like Wt = Cal^2*Vel/60=90000 (tons) maybe.
>
>Because the barrel is a simple "guide tube". Unlike a gun barrel, it 
>doesn't have to withstand huge pressures. 

Then the MD barrel should be considerably lighter. A 10cmL60 gun is 1.2 
tons and a 10 cm MD barrel comes at 2 tons. At even larger caliberes it 
becomes worse.

>Depending on whether the weapon is a "rail" gun or a "coil" gun,
>there may or may not be extra bracing needed to resist the "recoil" >of 
accelerating the projectile. But this doesn't need as much mass >as a 
regular gun barrel. 
>
>Leonard Erickson

But should a 300m/s barrel be the same thing as a 6000 m/s barrel? In 
the gauss handgun design sequence it doesn't. It probably isn't as 
linear as in the handgun sequence (and in my proposal above) but there 
should be a difference as the 6000m/s barrel would have to handle 400 
times the energy compared with the 300 m/s barrel. The difference in 
power cabling, length and whatever accelerates the projectile (rail or 
coil) should be noticeable (i.e. I want my MD mortar).

The problem is probably that MD:s " in FFS1&2 aren't as "fleshed out 
compared with chemical guns. I remember trying to design a MD grenade 
launcher under FFS1 and I ended up using a lot of assumptions.

Maybe MD mortars should have their own design sequence? Any takers?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:49:31 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: re: Ship Classes

>Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:16:42 +1200
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: re: Ship Classes

>From:                   "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>Date sent:              Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:21:53 -0500

>>I see.

>>Well, you can't expect me to put a spinal mount in a fighter now, 
>>can you? <G>

>Cmdr X where are you :*>

Right here!

While no, you can't put a spinal mount on a fighter, you CAN put a 3ton
PAW or Meson on it!

X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC has produced a PAW fighter (TTL-15/GTL-12)
and an experimental Meson Fighter (TTL-16/GTL-13).  Stats are on the X-TEK
website.  The PAW fighter is in both HG and GURPS stats, the meson fighter
in GURPS stats.

These weapons are extreamly short ranged when compaired to laser weapons.
The fighters are heavily armored to resist fire and get inclose to fire
their gun.

<Shameless Plug>
You can view the stats for these and many other X-TEK ships and weapon
systems on the X-TEK website:
http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm
Select "Year 1100" for HG and "Year 1120" for GURPS

Also, look for upcomming X-TEK news releases as it works on its new ad
campaign to counteract the "Ditziemania" that has swept the Imperium!  And
its merger with Maximus Interstellar Defence Industries. "X-TEK/Maximus
Industries, We don't kid around!"

</Shameless Plug>



\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:59:41 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie, FTML'ers, and an apology.

>OK Ditzie, you can put the particle accelerator away now....
>
>
>Best,
>Jesse
>
>

Jesse,

I'd just like to say that you really got the grin right on the new Ditsie
drawing, the test firing one.  Very much the manical child weapons designer
protagee enjoying the fruits of her labors.  Nice work of the 'sliding
shoes' from the recoil as fell.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:45:12 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship Classes

In a message dated 3/21/99 7:21:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<<  Along comes your TL 3 guerilla with
 his/her rifled musket, triangular socket bayonet, paint bomb and a few human
 looking local critter decoys...
  >>
Unless said guerilla pushes the paint blinded trooper off a cliff; how's a
Brown Bess going to crack open battledress?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:57:13 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: 1-900-TRAVLER (was Female TMLers?)

Bruce Alan Macintosh failed to be unclear when he wrote:
>>This thread made me think: Are there ANY women on this list???
>
>Somehow, with the attitudes often displayed on this list, I'm not wholly
>surprised that female posters are few and far between.


Bravo, Bruce. I belatedly and heartly second this observation. I'd be
embarrassed as hell to let my girlfriend read half of the comments I've
seen this morning (as I dig through the backlog created by days of neglect
- -- 1,300+ messages -- aiieee!). I think the phrase she would use is "why
those rotten suckers." ;-)

ObTrav (aw, man, now I gotta turn this "me too" post into a Trav' post):
Hmm. Rotten suckers. That puts me in mind of the old AD&D monster called
the rot grub. *That* puts me in mind of alien life forms that might be
dangerous or hostile to Travellers.

I remember whan I was young there was a book that dealt with dangerous
alien life forms -- not Traveller, but one of a group of books that were
published in the late 70s/early 80s. IIRC, essentially what the authors did
was take a bunch of sf paintings, bundle them together and write a
narrative about them as if the scenes were actually photos of some real,
living, future universe. IIRC, there was a book on dangerous alien life
forms, one that was sort of an overview of popular tourist sites in the
galaxy, one that was a listing of ships (much like the Salamander books of
modern military hardware you used to be able to find on the bargain book
tables in stores like B. Dalton and Waldenbooks), and a couple that dealt
with a hypothetical future war (between a federation composed of humans
from Terra and near-humans from Alpha Centauri against another agressive
near-human race from Proxima Centauri). I *loved* these books when I was a
kid.

Anyway, the thing I remember most about the book about dangerous aliens was
that there was an entry for this highly dangerous bipedal organism that
originated on this little blue planet that orbited a type G2V star. The
place had been essentially "red zoned," because the inhabitants were
considered every bit as dangerous if not more dangerous than the amorphous
blob horrors and trans-dimensional psionic death-trees that were the other
subjects of the book.

But that's actually besides my point. What I would like to know is this:
Does anyone know what the titles of these books are or who published them?

Okay, so that wasn't exactly ObTrav, but it was close. How's this ...

ObTrav: Would the Imperium red-zone a minor human world that was, say, TTL
6-8 if it's inhabitants were highly xenophobic and aggressive? Or would
they just roll in like the biggest steamroller this side of <insert
favorite wrathful deity here> and flatten said xenophobic, aggressive minor
humans into abject submission?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:06:31 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: older Traveller stuff

  Just a reminder for those of you having trouble finding titles for your
collection - Titan Games, <www.titan-games.com> ; very reliable service,
and an extensive used catalog:

...
>     Game Designer's Workshop
>          MegaTraveller
>               Player's Manual (211) [$9, NM], [$8, VF]
>               Referee's Manual (212) [$9, NM]
>               Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$11, NM], [$7, Fa]
>               Referee's Companion (215) [$10, NM]            
...
>Striker: Book 2 - Advanced Rules [$8, NM]
>The Traveller Book (hardbound) (201) [$28, VF]
>Alien Module 1 - Aslan (254) [$26, NM], [$24, VF]
>Alien Module 8 - Darrians (264) [$35, NM]
>Traveller Boxed Set (digest sized) (301) [$15.5, Box
>G-Contents NM], [$15, Box F-Contents VF], [$13, Box G-Contents F]
>Traveller Boxed Set (3rd printing, picture on back, digest sized) (301)
[$50, Boxed-N]
>Book 1 - Characters and Combat [$7.5, NM], [$5.5, F], [$4.5, G]
>Book 2 - Starships [$7.5, NM], [$6.5, VF], [$5.5, F], [$4.5,G]
>Book 3 - Worlds and Adventures [$7.5, NM], [$6.5, VF], [$5.5, F]
>Book 6 - Scouts (337) [$15, M]
>Suppl. 2 - Animal Encounters (305) [$12, NM], [$7, VF], [$4, Fa]
>Suppl. 6 - 76 Patrons (315) [$7.5, F]
>Suppl. 8 - Library Data (A-M) (320) [$10, VF]
>Adv. 2 - Research Station Gamma (311) [$11, VF], [$10, F]
>Adv. 7 - Broadsword (326) (tape on spine)[$17.5, VF]
>Adv. 10 - Safari Ship (338) [$13, M]
>Adv. 11 - Murder on Arcturus Station (339) [$13, M], [$11, VF]
>Double Adv. 1 - Annic Nova/Shadows (312) [$13, M], [$12.5, NM], [$12, VF]
>Double Adv. 2 - Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face (313) [$12, VF],
[$10.5, F]
>Double Adv. 3 - Death Station/The Argon Gambit (321) [$15, M], [$14, NM],
[$12.5, VF]
>Double Adv. 5 - Horde/The Chamax Plague (327) [$13, NM], [$12, VF]
...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:04:39 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: X-TEK Press Release

X-TEK/Maxiumus Defence Industries Press Relase:

045-1120 X-TEK Corporate HQ@HRD(1623 Vincennes/Deneb)
In an unprecedented move today by the CEO's of X-TEK and MIDI, the two
corporations have decided to merge. 

"Together with X-TEK's research and MIDI's ingenuity and stratagies, the
merger promises to be a formidable force in the area of weapon and
starship construction from the Solomani Sphere to Behind the Claw"
- --Commander X

The New Corporation, XTEK/Maximus Defence Industries, LIC is beginning a
vigorous ad campaign in retaliation to the "Ditziemania" that has swept
the Imperium thanks to the efforts of Famille Spofulam. The ads will
feature Harry Morrant, former head of corporate security at X-TEK as
"Spokesmerc". There is a possibility of adding Blaze of Tir Na nOg into
the ads as well.  

The ad slogan will be "When you want someting more than child's play, come
to X-TEK/Maxiumus Defence Industries.  We don't kid around!"

*>>End of Transmission<<*

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:19:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: C-Plus Cannon?!

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: max accel
...
>missile?  Even accounting for relatavistic effects, I find it relatively
>easy to obtain .1C+ velocities in a reasonable time.  For example, before
>relativity rears it's ugly head, a 100G missile accelerating for only one
>20-minute HG turn will reach a whopping (V=1/2AT^2)

  Above is D formula;  v = at

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:20:31 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: older Traveller stuff

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:06:31 -0800 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson) writes:
>  Just a reminder for those of you having trouble finding titles for 
>your
>collection



Also, go to E-Bay at ebay.com, there is usually a fair amount of old
stuff up at auction there.  I just got LBBs 1-3, High Guard, Trillion
Credit Squadron, and 76 Patrons for 17 bucks.  Just search under
Traveller and/or GDW

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:30:35 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Game log posted.

Morning all.

Just thought I'd let you know that the second session of my PBICQ game
went well on saturday night and I've posted the log for your enjoyment
at my site.

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

I won't included it on this letter it's to long.

Let me know what you think...

DS

PS - If you haven't checked out Jesse DeGraff's awsome pics go to his
site now...  That's an order...

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/welcome_to_the_patinir_belt.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:40:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Apologies my Ass!

Clif <brclif@digital.net> spews:

> Face it!  Gamers are geeks!  You're a geek!  I'm a geek!  (I know, Dough,
> you're not a geek.  You're a big he-man, bad-ass, etc., etc., who still
> can't find it in himself to crack on himself now and then.)  What the hell
> are we really doing wasting are time on this game, anyway?  If we can't
> fantasize and escape and have a little fun, what the hell good is the game
> in the first place?

Clif, you are truly beneath contempt.  I'm convinced that you suffer
from some severe form of Gilles de la Tourette syndrome.  The arrested
emotional development is a bit more blatantly obvious.

I'd love to have you come out west so some of us on the left coast
could demonstrate just exactly what kind of "geeks" we are, but I'd
be wasting me time.  As my grandfather (and doubtless many others)
were fond of saying, "Never wrestle with a pig.  All you get is
filthy and the pig loves it." :^(

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:45:58 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

Here's something to think about (maybe). A lot of people apparently don't
want to see the decks of the Suleiman perpendicular to thrust, but prefer a
parallel, airplane-style layout. This causes some problems with the landing
gear aesthetic, though.

However, since you are using grav plates to make a parallel-deck ship
feasable anyway, why not just line up the decks so that they are neither
parallel nor perpendicular to thrust, but rather just parallel to the
bottom spine of the ship? That way you could have a nose-down Suleiman,
without nose-down decks when you turn off the artificial grav.

Ciao,

Joseph R. "playin' in Illustrator cause he's frustrated with StrataVision
3D's continuous habit of crashing his G3/300" Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:54:17 -0500
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: Relic starships on planet surface

Hi all,

This is kind of a test post to see if my posting problems have been
eliminated.

I've been working on an intro scenario for trav and I'm trying to
determine some way of preserving a relic starship on a plant surface for
use by future generation. As an example - a critical starship component
is broken and the crew of a vessel wants to preserve the ship for future
use if a replacement part can be manufactured. Any ideas on how long the
basic integrity of the systems (airlock seals, etc. ) can be relied on
in a standard earth type atmosphere.

The tar pits come to mind, perhaps pump the ship full of noble gas and
coat it in tar?

Hope this gets through,

Glenn
______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers                 Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
ANSYS Inc.                       
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:58:50 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Relic starships on planet surface

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:54:17 -0500 Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
writes:
>
>The tar pits come to mind, perhaps pump the ship full of noble gas 
>and
>coat it in tar?
>
>Hope this gets through,
>
>Glenn




Dont use tar, corrosive.  You need to get hold of some natural rubber or
latex, coat it in that, the noble gas idea sounds good, though a vacuum
would be better.  Be sure you get the humidity down if you use a gas.

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:10:40 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: New Sulieman shots up

>Any chance of you doing some future ones in 1280x1024 :^)  All my systems
>have that size desktops and I'd love to use one of your shots for a desktop
>picture!
>
> Zane




Sheesh!  Go big or go home, eh?  My favorite motto!!!  That's why I shoot a
.45 USP instead of those little baby catridges ;D

I'll see what I can do.  My eventual plan for the gallery portion is to have
several different sizes/resolutions/compressions available, so if you're
internet connection is a nice fat pipe, you can download a 1280x1024 at 100%
if you want to.  Not recommended for less than 56k :)  Right now I don't
have the time to set that up, but when I do I'll send a message to the TML.

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:21:50 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Apologies my Ass!

In a message dated 99-03-21 23:30:18 EST, you write:

<< 
 Face it!  Gamers are geeks!  You're a geek!  I'm a geek!  (I know, Dough,
 you're not a geek.  You're a big he-man, bad-ass, etc., etc., who still
 can't find it in himself to crack on himself now and then.)  What the hell
 are we really doing wasting are time on this game, anyway?  If we can't
 fantasize and escape and have a little fun, what the hell good is the game
 in the first place? >>

A few points here Cliff,

1 I don't take Jesse too seriously either ;-)

2 WE'RE GEEKS???!!!!  What??!!  Nobody told me that!  When did this happen!?
Who authorized this!!!!????  This will look very bad on a job application.

3 fantasize and escape from reality is great.  It's better than choosing drugs
or something else dangerous/illegal as an escape.  HOWEVER i'm sure Cliff that
you're not suggesting that fantasies (even slightly sexual) about a very young
girl are a normal, no I didn't think you were, even in RPGs.

I love RPG and of course do things in RPG mode that normally I wouldn't, we
can't take it seriously, it's a game!  On that I do agree on.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:29:42 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Don't be crass!

In a message dated 99-03-21 23:38:58 EST, you write:

<< Yeah, and Joseph the Carpenter was a child molester, too.  Get real. >>

do you have his address?

c'mon Cliff.  No need to be that hard on the guy.  I agree that on the net and
on something like the TML you do have to deal with your own personals and face
them sometimes, but don't scrag the guy just for speaking up.  Besides, all
this is off topic now anyway so, can't we all just agree to disagree and stop?

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:09:28 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Minor race: Komodani (long)

One of my players expressed interest in playing a 'new' minor race in our new campaign, so I asked him to go ahead and create a race. This is what he came up with (with a little help from me):

Komodani (Tjassi-ssri-sstarr): Intelligent minor race originating on Heath (0209 Trojan Reach).
The Komodani is a bipedal, carnivorous reptilian. They are divided into male and female sex. The hands and feet each have 5 digits with claws. The saliva is rich on bacteria and is highly infecteous - it acts as pre-digesting agent. The Komodani spine ends in a tail which easily reaches the ground when the individual is standing upright. The Komodani are coldblooded and thus have no self-heating or cooling mechanism. Instead, they rely on external heat-supply in order to maintain appropriate body-heat and vice-versa regarding body-heat reduction. Comfortable temperature for a Komodani is around 33.8C.

Average height is 1.9 meters for the male, and 2.2 meters for the female. Average weight is 130 kg for males and 180 kg for females. Eyesight is poor, hearing is average, but the sense of smell is high. The Komodani uses flickering of the tongue as a sensory apparatus for smell. Sense of motion is also high when on all fours, otherwise it is average. Komodani possess average motorskills.

This minor race spends two thirds of the day resting; the remaining one-third is spent throughout the day - both nocturnal and daytime.

The Komodani female lays appoximately 50 eggs in a batch after a pregnancy lasting up to 200 days. Hatching-time of the eggs is 30 days. In the period following the hatching the young are only raised by the female Komodani. The young live in constant fear of predation by the males, and the actual survival rate is only 20 to 30 percent. Male Komadani lives on average 130 standard years - female lifespan is somewhat shorter; only 90 standard years.

Having reptilian origins, the Komodani seldom needs to feed. This is done approximately every 100 days and is called "The Calling" (klariss-rasstirr). The male Komodani will hunt for food in the wild, returning for 3 to 4 days to his savage state and engage in a feeding frenzy. When the male returns from the hunt, he will have only a slight memory of what happened. Most criminals are male Komodani who did not manage to get into the wild before undergoing "The Calling".

Architecture: Typical Komodani constructions use natural or artificially made caves as the base-form. Each guild will have a central plaza (usually including a hot-spring). Living quarters make up the inner ring surounding the plaza. The second ring contains educational and administrative constructions. In the outer ring one will find factories and storage areas. The guild areas are connected by large tunnels.

Communication: The Komodani have only one spoken language but several writen ones. A common writen language does exist but each guild also has it's own which is used when guild matters are involved. The Komodani rely heavily on signs and body-language; even scent is involved when the Komodani communicate with each other. This is the reason it is virtually impossible for any non-komodani to speak/see/smell the language fluently.

Evolution: Archeological findings support the thesis that the Komodani are a separately evolved race. These findings are however very inconclusive due to the fact that the Komodani race has not shown any interest in archeology whatsoever until recently.

The separation of the sexes is seen as a simple mean of survival. The early Komodani were so aggresive that any contact between male and female would result in lethal combat and the death of at least one of the Komodani. Hence the Komodani live apart. It is believed that a gradual change in the climate, in the form of global cooling, sparked the need for a more intelligent Komodani. There is evidence that in the archeological period where the cooling took place there where a limited amount of geographical locations where thermal heat escaped the planet core (hot-springs, mud-pools etc.). These places where used by the females as breeding grounds, and taking into account that the physical size of the female in those days exceeded the size of the male with up to 100%, the male would have little hope of gaining any territory in the heated geographical areas. It is thought that the necessity for an external heat-supply forced the males to rely on self-initiated means of heating th!
eir bodies. On the other hand, the females did not have a need for intelligence since they had the physical power to hold on to the increasingly important heated areas.

The female Komodani still use these heated locations as their territories, but in modern days the male Komodani have built several artificial hot-spots where the females can live. Since the race rely on an external heat supply in order to survive the male has no problem in finding a female when the need for breeding arises.

It is believed that the uncontrollable desire to breed was kept in the nature of the male in order to force the male Komodani away from their safe, self-heated areas and engage in the ordeal of mating. Not only would the male have to cross country where the threat of death by freezing was ever present - the male also had to fight the physically stronger female if the race as a whole were to survive. Hence the unavoidable desire to mate among the male Komodani. Since the male would need all his strength in the ordeal, the body and mind enters a state of frenzy where everything is centered around brute physical strength (this explains why the female breeding grounds are kept away from the male society).

Since the young male Komodani would be driven away from the heated areas by the young females from their batch, it was, and still is, necessary for the young males' survival that the adult male population can keep them out of harms way when the young females start showing signs of territorial demand.

History: The most significant fact when looking at this minor race from a historical point of view is that the pace in which the Komodani develop and change their society is relativly slow. They do not seem to approach change with much eagerness, relying instead on carefully taken steps towards both social and technological advancements. There has not been done much research into the Komodani history prior to First Contact.

Although some tales suggests that the Komodani experienced visits from the stars already during the First Imperium, no evidence has been uncovered to prove the theory neither right nor wrong. Ancient Komodani legends tell about god-like beings who descended from the heavens riding on large animals, and wielding mighty powers of destruction and healing.

These tales have first been written down in much more recent times, and it is unclear from which period they originate, or if more than one visit took place. Researchers has theorized on a number of different possibilities, claiming that the visitors were respectively Vilani, Vargr or Aslan. No conclusive evidence has been uncovered to support neither theory, neither on Heath nor on any other planet.

The first documentable contact with off-worlders happened in -161 when Floriani explorers contacted the Komodani, who at that time had a stable and slowly progressing tech level 7 society. Although science was advanced, knowledge of the true nature of the stars and planets was only in it's formative period, as the planet's sky is mostly overcast, which caused the Komodani to begin to speculate about the nature of the universe outside their world rather late. Still, it was not totally incomprehensible to the locals when they were contacted by off-worlders.

Floriani-Komodani relations have been relatively uneventful since then. Both races are somewhat placid and normally unaggressive, so no reason for conflict between the two races has ever appeared.

Although the Floriani in general seems to like the Komodani, Heath has never been a member of the Florian League, despite it's proximity to Floria (0213 Trojan Reach). Trade and commerce between the two races has been conducted on a steadily increasing level, as the Komodani society has been advancing.

The Komodani came into contact with the third Imperium for the first time in 203 when imperial scouts landed on their homeworld. At this time, Komodani had already been offworld, and some had even met Aslan. Although small in numbers, Floriani were always present on Heath, and the Komodani had been members, albeit not very important ones, of interstellar society for over 300 years. The IISS decided to leave the minor race to the Floriani, and established friendly although irregular ties with the Komodani.

Today, Heath is still mostly oriented towards Floria, but many Komodani also travel to the Third Imperium for trade, education or cultural exchange, and the world is occasionally visited by an Imperial ship. Komodani-Aslan relations in recent times have been cool, but almost non-existing.

Homeworld: Heath (0209 Trojan Reach B487532-B) is the name used among humans. The Komodani themselves call the world Tjassi-ssri-rassh-kiasrr. Although archeological evidence suggests that the middle temperature once was about 30C, the world experienced a major shift in climate about the time when the Komodani started on the evolutional path towards intelligence (it was this shift which sparked this development in the first place). Major geological upheaval, possibly caused by a passing large celestial body, caused the atmospheric composition to change, lowering the greenhouse effect and increasing the world's albedo. The result was a much cooler world, and this situation has remained unchanged until this day, where the mean temperature is around 14C. The sky is mostly overcast.

One local day is approximately 14 hours and 40 minutes. One local year is 112.47 standard days.

Heath is governed by a group of Elders (Jgarrioss Hjrar B'tass). Each member of this council has been recruited from one of the many guilds. The selection-process is strictly in the hands of the B'tass. There are 21 members of the council and it is headed by a Hrjar Ustass (coordinator). No guild may be represented by more than one member in the B'tass. The council may not interfere in intra-guild matters but may step in as mediator in inter-guild quarrels and disputes when these seem unresolvable by the guilds themselves - this does however require a request from the involved guilds. The B'tass takes care of all matters regarding off-planet relationships - the council was in fact only established as a result of First Contact. The Komodani realized that they needed a way in which their interests could be communicated to and coordinated with off-world cultures. Some may say that the existense of the B'tass is in conflict with The One Law but the Komodani themselves see it as a !
necessity in dealing with off-worlders, since the have realized that the The One Law is not universally recognized.

With respect to The One Law, off-worlders are usually regarded as intelligent beings. There are no weapons restrictions on Heath, since self-defence is seen as a legal response to violence. One should however note that the degree of violence used in self-defence must reflect the degree of the attack upon the victim's freedom.

Society: Komodani society only has a very loose structure. Individual status is determined by physical size. Male and female societies are divided and the two sexes only interact when mating occurs. Intelligence is much more advanced in the male part of the population. The females act as drones and do not possess any culture. Male Komodani must venture into the wild in order to find a female. When found, the female will seldomly willingly mate. After breeding, the male returns to society. This happens once every 400 days and is called "The Beginning" (ssafo-kjiass). 200 local days later, and also only once every 400 local days male hunting groups will gather in order to retrieve male young from the wild. Not many young survive this, but are instead killed and eaten in the proces. This event is known by the male society as "The Turning" (kssirr-brass). Every adult male participating in this event (only the ones who participated in the previous Beginning) will try to capture one!
 young male - this must be one of his own hatchlings - and bring this young Komodani back to society where the upbringing will take place. The adult male recognizes his own off-spring by scent. Other hatchlings that the adult male encounters, will be killed and sometimes eaten.

The male society (tjassi-ssri-sstarr) is devoted to the search for knowledge. The male Komodani loathes the savage side of himself - the genetic programming that makes him crave The Beginning and The Turning. As a consequence of this the male will act very peacefully when not engaged in the two reproduction events. The society has only one law: Thou shall not hinder the personal freedom of another intelligent Komodani. This law is seldomly broken - and when it is, punishment is swift and merciless. The criminal will be hunted down by other males and will be executed. By breaking The One Law (xserss-biass) the criminal has lost his status as an intelligent Komodani and has thereby lost his protected status. This hunting proces will also call forth the savage side of the male.

The male community is made up by various guilds which span from the Brass-ksarr (sanitary) to the Stiash-mniss (space-tech). The Komodani do not place any guild over the other. The young male will be brought up in his father's guild and will take his place when the older male dies. All have equal status in society. This is probably a derived effect from The One Law. The guilds usually interact with each other. Some guilds even have representives within the bounderies of other guilds. The above mentioned Brass-ksarr is a good example of the inter-guild coorporation.

Each male will spend at least one year in the Drasaur-Jiss (Guild of the Claw) learning basic combat techniques. Many of the young males will then continue their fighting training in the various military guilds. The basic training will aid the young males when mating and it also serves as a necessary base of personal discipline in the remainder of the young male's life. It is during this year that the males learn to contain their natural aggressive behavior.

The Komodani seem to have a relaxed attitude towards other races, but it should be noted that no non-Komodani has ever been taken in by a Komodani guild. Some visitors have been known to misunderstand the Komodani's attitude regarding personal freedom and thought them lawless. The only type of crime the Komodani have any concept of is the use of physical violence. However since other forms of non-Komodani crime usually involve a violation of the personal freedom of other individuals the punishment will be swift. The Komodani have no judicial system - punishment will be executed by the guild that happens upon the criminal act. There are only 3 types of disciplinary action among the Komodani: Warning, banishment and death. The Komodani do not see activities where a personal choice is involved as criminal. It does not matter if an invidual wants to destroy himself by using drugs as long as that individual does not interfere with the freedom of other individuals. The drug-abuser p!
ersonally chooses to buy (or sell) drugs and this is not against The One Law. If, however, this is forced upon an individual it is an all together different matter. The same goes for areas such as prostitution and gambling. 

Comments?

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:39:42 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

There isn't a list exactly shadow, it's actually a precautionary definition.
At our facility "contraband" is defined as ANYTHING that can not be purchased
at the facilities commisary OR any item purchased at the commisary but then
altered in any way.

The match head thing was learned from experiences at a riot at the Corcoran St
Prison where inmates stuffed match heads in tooth paste tubes with a
wick/fuse.  This created a small incindiary type explosive that they used to
start various fires at long (throwing) distance.

Our contraband definition is so broad because "they" have 24/7 to figure out
new ways to make weapons/drugs/other items and are always coming up with new
ones.

TAS

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #326
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 327



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Apologies my Ass!
Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
Re: mostly Grav tanks (certified free of Ditzie-speak)
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: Apologies my Ass!
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Apologies
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Don't be crass!
Ships Locker on Scout Ships
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Ditzie
Re: The Green Berets
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
re: Minor Race: the Komodani
Re: Don't be crass!
Re: older Traveller stuff (OT)
Re:  Dont' be crass! (unsub'ing)
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Apologies!
Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:44:56 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Apologies my Ass!

In a message dated 99-03-22 11:44:59 EST, you write:

<<  "Never wrestle with a pig.  All you get is
 filthy and the pig loves it." :^(
 
         - Mark C.
           Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
           EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
           NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
           Front Sight First Family member #1
  >>

Ok, it's official, I'm scarred of Mark.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:47:48 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> Here's something to think about (maybe). A lot of people apparently don't
> want to see the decks of the Suleiman perpendicular to thrust, but prefer a
> parallel, airplane-style layout. This causes some problems with the landing
> gear aesthetic, though.
>
> However, since you are using grav plates to make a parallel-deck ship
> feasable anyway, why not just line up the decks so that they are neither
> parallel nor perpendicular to thrust, but rather just parallel to the
> bottom spine of the ship? That way you could have a nose-down Suleiman,
> without nose-down decks when you turn off the artificial grav.

Well, I believe somebody has mentioned that the Scout uses two landing struts
and the tail to form its landing tripod.  Makes sense too, since most of the
weight is in the rear, volumewise and densitywise (drives and plants)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:29:44 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: mostly Grav tanks (certified free of Ditzie-speak)

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>The way I look at it, at TL6 naval missiles became common, and at TL7 big
>ships started to get point defense. Now, at TL8, it's on virtually every
>'real' naval ship.
>
>Now, an effective land point defense system has to be smaller and better,
>because ground vehicles and missiles are smaller.

At current tech levels, hard kill defences for land vehicles are
unlikely, since the weapons don't scale. You use a missile the size of a
sidewinder or a 20mm cannon to defeat a naval missile weighing a few
hundred kilos. What do you use to kill a man-portable ATGW with an all-
up mass of 50kg?

For current tech, look to soft kill (Arena/Shorta) and improved reactive
armour (Kontact-5).

>I'd be interested to see how a ZSU or equivalent would do against TOW and
>similar, if it's radar could be tweaked enough to deal with ground clutter.
>Something like FLIR could actually be better than radar, die to a lack of
>ground clutter effects.

TOW is slow flying, and it's not a crossing target. Then again, it's
small. The best use for that ZSU would be to hose down the area where
the launch signature came from, since you can kill the operator and
abort the missile before it hits you.

>>From lasers?  Given space combat ranges, the distance is small fries.  The
>>others could have an effect, but given the distance probably not a large
>>one...
>
>The problem isnt the range, it's the refraction from differing densities in
>the atmosphere and so on. If you are trying to plug individual tanks from
>orbit, then 5 meters out with a laser just doesnt cut it.

Use a cheap penetrator with a simple homing unit and guidance fins. Drop
from orbit. Repeat. Sure, you are ammo limited (vice a laser with a
fusion power supply); but it'll work through clouds, fog, smoke,
moisture...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:17:42 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

Sethkimmel wrote:

><< Douglas fir, is ever-so-slightly-more than neutrally boyant when
> waterlogged.  It also will not burn worth a damn, but will produce
> horrible amounts of smoke trying...
>       So, U-Boat slugs the Q-Ship with its deck gun at the waterline,
> and is gratified to see great gouts of white smoke pooring out the cargo
> hatches in short order.  The they get the nasty surprise....
>  >>
>
>LOL! Brilliant...

Not really. While no-one is using Q-Ships, the U-boats will at least
give the crew/passengers time to abandon ship before using the deck gun.
When it gets out that this trick is going on, they'll just use torpedoes
from underwater and d*mn the conventions.

ObTrav: I know that the Imperial Rules of War prevent the use of nukes;
but is there any requirement to give a freighter crew time to abandon
ship before it's vapourised?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:42:46 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Apologies my Ass!

Oh, you're just scared of him 'cause he shoots better'n you :)  Of course,
I've always shot better than you as well *weg*!!

Jesse


>In a message dated 99-03-22 11:44:59 EST, you write:
>
><<  "Never wrestle with a pig.  All you get is
> filthy and the pig loves it." :^(
>
>         - Mark C.
>           Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>           EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>           NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>           Front Sight First Family member #1
>  >>
>
>Ok, it's official, I'm scarred of Mark.
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:42:40 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

Well, never having had a hangnail, if its anything like ingrown toenails, I
went to a doc, had him shoot up my toe with anesthetic, the cut the sides of
the nail all the way back to the root and then burn the roots with some kind
of chemical.

- --Clif

As for my bedside manner, *I* didn't claim to be the help.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:42:34 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Apologies

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:40:52 -0800 (PST), Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:

>Clif <brclif@digital.net> spews:
>
>> Face it!  Gamers are geeks!  You're a geek!  I'm a geek!  (I know, Dough,
>> you're not a geek.  You're a big he-man, bad-ass, etc., etc., who still
>> can't find it in himself to crack on himself now and then.)  What the hell
>> are we really doing wasting are time on this game, anyway?  If we can't
>> fantasize and escape and have a little fun, what the hell good is the game
>> in the first place?
>
>Clif, you are truly beneath contempt.  I'm convinced that you suffer
>from some severe form of Gilles de la Tourette syndrome.  The arrested
>emotional development is a bit more blatantly obvious.

Mark, I must (somewhat reluctantly) come to Clif's defense on this one
point.

I admit that I'm a geek, though I've never done that thing with the 
chicken.  *grin*  And escapism is my primary reason for gaming, and gaming
my primary form of escapism.  So on this point, I have to agree.

However, Clif:  another poster made a request to end this topic based on
RL unpleasantness and issues deriving therefrom.  That's a FULL STOP on
the joking for me (and should be for you too); it's like a woman saying
"no," or "safeword."  It means that the kidding around is done and that
to continue is to deliberately cause pain to another human being, however
ephemeral they may seem over the Net at times.

Never mock or criticize someone for spoiling your "fun" because it touches
on painful personal stuff.  If nothing else, remember karma - that which
you do shall be returned to you threefold someday.

- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:43:55 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

That's what they're there for!

- --Clif

>At 11:02 PM 3/21/99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>>Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in
your
>>life.

>Gee, I see nothings changed while I've been off the list.  The nice people
>are still nice and the rude people are still rude.
>
>Suz
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:46:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Don't be crass!

Just send me unsubscribe directions so I want have to walk on eggshells for
someone who won't get the help he needs to keep from freaking out over
comments about a freaking CARTOON!

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 11:43 PM
Subject: Don't be crass!


>[begin sopbox]
>
>I'll only say this once, and I hope everyone else will refrain from
igniting
>another "I hate Clif" thread.
>
>Clif, grow up and join human race.  Your manners are atrocious, and your
>lack of feelings for another person's concerns (let alone a fellow TML'er)
>are truly frightening.
>
>You've actually had *some* really great input lately, not to mention you
>were basically the one (if I'm not mistaken) who created the idea for the
>Web Sector Project.  Don't blow it like this!  Keep the good ideas coming.
>If you feel the need to write a post like this, fine-go ahead and write it
>as your impulse control is about as good as mine.  JUST DON'T SEND IT!!!
>Some of my co-workers and I do this all the time at work just so we can
vent
>over some of the idiots that we're forced to deal with.  Then we send it to
>each other, laugh, and then draft a PROPER reply.
>
>If you feel a need to vent over this message I've written, please reply to
>me directly at fenris@slip.net and spare the list.  Thanks!!
>
>[end soapbox]
>
>
>Best Regards,
>Jesse
>
>
>>Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in
your
>>life.  A cat-call (I didn't see anything worse) at a cartoon that someone
>>said was of her at age 16 (looks like mid-20's, to me) is hardly cause for
>>you to stifle our fun and entertainment.
>>
>>Sure, abuse is ugly and I don't know what has gone on in your life, but
>>there are surely people there who can help you with it.  I, for one, am
not
>>going to walk on eggshells and put on a sleeveless sweater and a bow tie
>and
>>glasses just because of someone else's problems when they won't seek help.
>>
>>No one here is advocating child molestation.
>>
>>Yeah, and Joseph the Carpenter was a child molester, too.  Get real.
>>
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:54:07 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

IMTC I gave the party ACR's in a Donosev locker, one of the players an 
old traveller hand, commented that this was a lot of fire power and that 
the ACR was primarily a military weapon...I guess I was going on the 
fact that on U.S. Naval vessals..they keep M16's in the ships 
locker...General comments? Flames? :)
Mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:52:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

>No one here is advocating child molestation.

I know you honestly believe what you just said, and a lot if not all
of the people here would agree with you, but you're wrong. You may
not be advocating child abuse, but your (and lots of other people
here) attitudes are helping to make abuse possible.

No, YOU are wrong.  It is a legal system which outlaws a patriarch taking a
rapist's life into his own hands that enables abuse of children.

>Okay, so this had nothing to do with Traveller, and I've probably gone
more than a little over the top with my rant. But sometimes the shit
gets to you.

You're telling ME?  My own sister was molested.  It's not the guys who can
appreciate a well-drawn cartoon of a girl with a big gun that you have to
worry about it.  So tell me all about it, why don't you?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:56:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie

Okay, but she isn't a drag-queen, being a girl, at least.

>> now
>>that I know she is this cool weapon's testing girl rather than a
drag-queen
>>strung out on drugs.
>
>Clif, those two things are not contradictory.
>
>And, yes, she is rather strung out on pharmecuticals ... the FS solution to
>the 'Two Hundred Barrier'.
>
>Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:57:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Berets

I already got info from the TMLers, thank you.

- --Clif

>3.  Have you looked in the forums I mentioned for info about the book?
>-- 
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:59:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

Uh, Chlorine gas?  Kinda deadly.

>Here's an interesting one that *should* work, but I won't swear to it...
>
> Ammonia
> drain cleaner (non-lye-based)
> sugar
>
>Your mission is to determine *how* I can cause trouble with the above. :-)
>And here's a moldy oldy:
> Antiseptic
> ammonia

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:02:35 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

In all of my throwings I NEVER had this happen until an impact.  I probably
shouldn't have used the word "cram-packed".  "packed until there is no more
air space left inside" would be a better description.  The impact provides
the compression.

- --Clif

Certainly, "Don't try this at home, kiddees!"  (your mom will kill you.)

>AIIIIEEEEE!!!!
>
>This is a really, *really* BAD IDEA. Under even moderate "compression"
>match-heads have been known to self-ignite. At least you are using a
>ping-pong ball, not a used CO2 cartridge. So you'll only have 2nd & 3rd
>degree burns to worry about, not shrapnel, and blast effects.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:02:54 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Minor Race: the Komodani

Regarding Mark Seeman's minor race:

A combat critter that gets to act intelligent, but keeps getting sidetracked
by genetically-programmed atavism. 

Feeds once every three months? It must go into a torpor after feeding,
because it just ate enough to choke a (human) platoon.

This race will probably only exist on their homeworld, with very rare
exceptions. They turn unintelligent and go hunting every 100 days, which
means they'll have to hunt in an appropriate environment - which means
home. At most, you'll meet travelling Komodani within five or six jumps
of Heath - say, ten to twenty parsecs max range? Any more and they
won't be able to get home for their hunting instincts to come out.

Sounds like their thin veneer of civilization tears the moment they think
someone has broken their One Law. Interesting, as a horde of tranquil
philosophers become red-clawed predators at the drop of a faux-pas.

There's a problem with the description of the males as devoted to the
pursuit of knowledge, and the description of the race as somewhat 
plodding and slow to develop - unless, of course, Komodani just aren't
that good at science and creative thinking. Combine a traditionalistic
culture with individual random bouts of savagery, this might be the result.

Imagines the First Contact team being introduced to the greatest
Komodani philosophers and scientists, and realizing these worthies
can't tell a hypothesis from a hypotenuse...but could shred you in a
moment if you annoy them. <weg>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:12:42 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Don't be crass!

> Just send me unsubscribe directions...<snip>
> 
> --Clif


If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <Majordomo@lists.MPGN.COM> with the following
command in the body of your email message:

    unsubscribe traveller brclif@digital.net


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:08:41 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: older Traveller stuff (OT)

:   Just a reminder for those of you having trouble finding titles for
your
: collection -

<shameless plug>

Or for better prices and a larger selection you could try the Subsidized
Merchant http://surf.to/traveller-trader  (aka
www.downport.com/ct/trader.html )

</shameless plug>



       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:12:07 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re:  Dont' be crass! (unsub'ing)

As you wish.

    unsubscribe <list> [<address>]
Unsubscribe yourself (or <address> if specified) from the named <list>.
"unsubscribe *" will remove you (or <address>) from all lists.  This
_may not_ work if you have subscribed using multiple addresses.

If you have any questions or problems, please contact
"Majordomo-Owner@lists.MPGN.COM".


Jesse


>Just send me unsubscribe directions so I want have to walk on eggshells for
>someone who won't get the help he needs to keep from freaking out over
>comments about a freaking CARTOON!
>
>--Clif
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 11:43 PM
>Subject: Don't be crass!
>
>
>>[begin sopbox]
>>
>>I'll only say this once, and I hope everyone else will refrain from
>igniting
>>another "I hate Clif" thread.
>>
>>Clif, grow up and join human race.  Your manners are atrocious, and your
>>lack of feelings for another person's concerns (let alone a fellow TML'er)
>>are truly frightening.
>>
>>You've actually had *some* really great input lately, not to mention you
>>were basically the one (if I'm not mistaken) who created the idea for the
>>Web Sector Project.  Don't blow it like this!  Keep the good ideas coming.
>>If you feel the need to write a post like this, fine-go ahead and write it
>>as your impulse control is about as good as mine.  JUST DON'T SEND IT!!!
>>Some of my co-workers and I do this all the time at work just so we can
>vent
>>over some of the idiots that we're forced to deal with.  Then we send it
to
>>each other, laugh, and then draft a PROPER reply.
>>
>>If you feel a need to vent over this message I've written, please reply to
>>me directly at fenris@slip.net and spare the list.  Thanks!!
>>
>>[end soapbox]
>>
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>Jesse
>>
>>
>>>Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in
>your
>>>life.  A cat-call (I didn't see anything worse) at a cartoon that someone
>>>said was of her at age 16 (looks like mid-20's, to me) is hardly cause
for
>>>you to stifle our fun and entertainment.
>>>
>>>Sure, abuse is ugly and I don't know what has gone on in your life, but
>>>there are surely people there who can help you with it.  I, for one, am
>not
>>>going to walk on eggshells and put on a sleeveless sweater and a bow tie
>>and
>>>glasses just because of someone else's problems when they won't seek
help.
>>>
>>>No one here is advocating child molestation.
>>>
>>>Yeah, and Joseph the Carpenter was a child molester, too.  Get real.
>>>
>>>
>>>--Clif
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:10:27 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:52:39 -0500 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>
>>No one here is advocating child molestation.
>
>I know you honestly believe what you just said, and a lot if not all
>of the people here would agree with you, but you're wrong. You may
>not be advocating child abuse, but your (and lots of other people
>here) attitudes are helping to make abuse possible.
>
>No, YOU are wrong.  It is a legal system which outlaws a patriarch 
>taking a
>rapist's life into his own hands that enables abuse of children.
>
=========================

Lurk cloak off.

Okay Clif, your own self righteous preaching has gone too far.  I come to
this list to get ideas, and have a good time with others of like mind.  I
made my own male oriented comments about the drawings.  Then I dropped
it.  If what I said insulted someone, my apologies.  We do NOT have the
right to slam others, nor  to act without tact or respect for others. 
That applies to you as well.  I don't give a damn what you have been
through, you still have to act with respect for others, no matter whether
you want to or not.  If someone asks you to drop it, respectfully, then
drop it.  IF you want to debate someone on a subject, then do so off
list.  You've been asked to drop this more than once.  Drop it.  Now.

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:18:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Apologies!

>3 fantasize and escape from reality is great.  It's better than choosing
drugs
>or something else dangerous/illegal as an escape.  HOWEVER i'm sure Cliff
that
>you're not suggesting that fantasies (even slightly sexual) about a very
young
>girl are a normal, no I didn't think you were, even in RPGs.
>

*I* was thinking about having sex with a 2-D cartoon, were you?  You can
look at and appreciate the Venus de Milo without taking sideglances to make
sure the guards aren't looking while I reach for my fly.  Comparing the two
activities is pretty stupid and rather uneducated.  (Or, at least, a
knee-jerk reaction that requires some help.)

>I love RPG and of course do things in RPG mode that normally I wouldn't, we
>can't take it seriously, it's a game!  On that I do agree on.
>
>TAS
>

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:24:51 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

Back in the late '80s, when I was stationed on a cruiser and part of the
SAT/BAF, our primary weapons were .45s and shotguns.  Topside security would
be given a M-14 (which I still prefer to the M-16).  On the Nimitz, the
Marines had M-16s, but us swabbies still had shotguns.

Looking back on it, I prefer the way we were armed.  The .45 has enough
authority to stop someone, but probably won't put a hole in a high pressure
steam line - and the shotgun is a very authoritive passageway sweeper - and
the ranges inside the skin of the ship make it *very* effective.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:07 AM
Subject: Ships Locker on Scout Ships


>IMTC I gave the party ACR's in a Donosev locker, one of the players an
>old traveller hand, commented that this was a lot of fire power and that
>the ACR was primarily a military weapon...I guess I was going on the
>fact that on U.S. Naval vessals..they keep M16's in the ships
>locker...General comments? Flames? :)
>Mike
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #327
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 328



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: mostly Grav tanks (certified free of Ditzie-speak)
Re: Minor race: Komodani
Clif
re: Female TMLers?
Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)
Re: Minor Race: the Komodani
Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
Re: Clif
Re: Clif
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Re: Clif
Re: Clif
Re: Minor Race: the Komodani
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
re: Ship Design Rules
Re: Ship Design Rules
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)
Plug for IRC game
Free Mac 3-D modeling software (was 3-D deckplans)
Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:28:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

Kiss my ass.  Who made you the emperor?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Cc: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)


>
>
>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:52:39 -0500 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>>
>>>No one here is advocating child molestation.
>>
>>I know you honestly believe what you just said, and a lot if not all
>>of the people here would agree with you, but you're wrong. You may
>>not be advocating child abuse, but your (and lots of other people
>>here) attitudes are helping to make abuse possible.
>>
>>No, YOU are wrong.  It is a legal system which outlaws a patriarch 
>>taking a
>>rapist's life into his own hands that enables abuse of children.
>>
>=========================
>
>Lurk cloak off.
>
>Okay Clif, your own self righteous preaching has gone too far.  I come to
>this list to get ideas, and have a good time with others of like mind.  I
>made my own male oriented comments about the drawings.  Then I dropped
>it.  If what I said insulted someone, my apologies.  We do NOT have the
>right to slam others, nor  to act without tact or respect for others. 
>That applies to you as well.  I don't give a damn what you have been
>through, you still have to act with respect for others, no matter whether
>you want to or not.  If someone asks you to drop it, respectfully, then
>drop it.  IF you want to debate someone on a subject, then do so off
>list.  You've been asked to drop this more than once.  Drop it.  Now.
>
>JimC
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:39:12 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: mostly Grav tanks (certified free of Ditzie-speak)

At 05:29 PM 3/22/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>The problem isnt the range, it's the refraction from differing densities in
>>the atmosphere and so on. If you are trying to plug individual tanks from
>>orbit, then 5 meters out with a laser just doesnt cut it.
>
>Use a cheap penetrator with a simple homing unit and guidance fins. Drop
>from orbit. Repeat. Sure, you are ammo limited (vice a laser with a
>fusion power supply); but it'll work through clouds, fog, smoke,
>moisture...

I remember my father telling me about something similar to this from when
he was in the South Pacific in the 2nd World War.  It seems that the local
medium bomber squadron on occasion dropped what were called "bird dogs",
which were basicly one or two ounce lead fishing weights with small tin
fins, on suspected Japanese positions.  Individually they were not too
impressive, but when a flight of B-25's overflew a beach area where they
were taking fire from and dumped several tons of the little beasties, my
father changed his opinion.  When they went ashore from the PT boat to
investigate, he said all they found was shredded jungle.

OB Trav:  Trapped on a low tech world with the Chamax advancing, all you
have is a pinnace, a coulple brawnly locals with shovels, and a lots of
lead fishing weights...

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:38:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Minor race: Komodani

> From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
> Subject: Minor race: Komodani (long)

*** The rest of the article deleted to save bandwidth. ***


Very well written and presented.  Both you and your player are to be 
commended on the quality of the presentation.  I do note some 
similarities between the Komodani of the Trojan Reaches and the 
Drakarans from coreward of Gvurrdon sector.  (Details on the 
Drakarans can be found in GT: Alien Races 1.)  It might be worth 
looking into for some additional ideas, although you do seem to have 
a lot of bases covered already.  :)

Thanks for sharing that with us.

Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:44:48 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Clif

He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.

Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:44:15 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Female TMLers?

Cliff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
<deleted stuff about emperors
>>>>>>>>>>
**plonk**.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:51:59 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Q-Ships (was re: Who says Civilian Ships...)

At 05:17 PM 3/22/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Not really. While no-one is using Q-Ships, the U-boats will at least
>give the crew/passengers time to abandon ship before using the deck gun.
>When it gets out that this trick is going on, they'll just use torpedoes
>from underwater and d*mn the conventions.

        Actually, the issue was economics...  they had more deckgun rounds
than torpedoes, and Q-Ships were always "tramps"...  alone, no convoy
escorts, or straggling behind a convoy just a bit too far for the escorts to
get to...  in other words, a prime candiate for the U-Boat to surface and
shell stupid.
        In most cases, the ship the U-Boat surfaced and shelled *was* a
straggler or a tramp.  So, the U-Boat captains always took the risk, saving
the torpedoes for situations where they *had* to attack submerged.

>ObTrav: I know that the Imperial Rules of War prevent the use of nukes;
>but is there any requirement to give a freighter crew time to abandon
>ship before it's vapourised?
>
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt

        No, but there is nothing that says the Navy has to allow the pirate
with that reputation to surrender, either...  ;-)

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:58:08 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Minor Race: the Komodani

> There's a problem with the description of the males as devoted to the
> pursuit of knowledge, and the description of the race as somewhat
> plodding and slow to develop - unless, of course, Komodani just aren't
> that good at science and creative thinking. Combine a traditionalistic
> culture with individual random bouts of savagery, this might be the
result.
>
> Imagines the First Contact team being introduced to the greatest
> Komodani philosophers and scientists, and realizing these worthies
> can't tell a hypothesis from a hypotenuse...but could shred you in a
> moment if you annoy them. <weg>

A different tack might be that the Komadani might be purists, in the sense
that they have mastered the higher theories of mathematics, etc., they
simply have not applied the principals to practical matters.  They might
simply appreciate the subtle aesthetics of the sciences without getting
their appendages 'dirty.' <g>  Cultural pressures, religious convictions, or
their own unique perspective on The Universe (tm) could be used to explain
this behavior.


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:49:04 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

Mike

  As to a Ships locker on  Scout ship, ACRs do not seem 
unreasonable to me.

  Depends how many and how much ammo.


  If the landing part of a Donosev finds tracks of a 
Crested Jabberwock, then calling up to have the ACRs 
sent down does not seem unreasonable.

  If there was a war going on then having ACRs would
not make a lot of difference.  They had best hope that
no one starts firing missiles at them.




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:54:27 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Clif

Thankyou kindly.

JimC

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:44:48 -0500 Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com> writes:
>He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
>
>Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.
>
>Rob
>
>--
>Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
>Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
>http://www.mpgn.com/
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:54:27 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Clif

Thankyou kindly.

JimC

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:44:48 -0500 Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com> writes:
>He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
>
>Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.
>
>Rob
>
>--
>Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
>Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
>http://www.mpgn.com/
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:52:49 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

Sigh.  Clif is clearly determined to be contentious no matter what.  His
sometimes brilliant flashes are not worth the abuse he heaps on those who
do not agree with him.

1]  I will remain on list, but will kill file his posts.

2]  I heretofore respectfully request to the list owner that Clif be
banned.  

3]  I will furthermore not respond anymore to any of Clif's sadfully
hateful and inflammatory comments.

4]  I respectfully request everyone else do the same.

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:28:27 -0500 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>Kiss my ass.  Who made you the emperor?
>
>--Clif

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:00:18 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Clif

AND THERE WAS MUCH REJOICING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We now return you to your regulary scheduled Traveller programming.
Jesse





>He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
>
>Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.
>
>Rob
>
>--
>Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
>Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
>http://www.mpgn.com/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:00:18 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Clif

AND THERE WAS MUCH REJOICING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We now return you to your regulary scheduled Traveller programming.
Jesse





>He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
>
>Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.
>
>Rob
>
>--
>Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
>Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
>http://www.mpgn.com/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:59:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Minor Race: the Komodani

> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>
> Regarding Mark Seeman's minor race:
> 
> A combat critter that gets to act intelligent, but keeps getting sidetracked
> by genetically-programmed atavism. 
> 
> Feeds once every three months? It must go into a torpor after feeding,
> because it just ate enough to choke a (human) platoon.

I must admit that I had some problems with this one, and that's the 
reason why I referenced earlier to the GT Minor Race, the Drakarans.  
Their feeding cycle is once every 20ish days.  The 100 day feeding 
cycle might be better served by lowering it, or by providing other 
means of Komodani sustenance.  (Like a sugar-water drink or something 
that gives them the calories to burn during active periods, or 
something.)  Just a thought.

> This race will probably only exist on their homeworld, with very rare
> exceptions. They turn unintelligent and go hunting every 100 days, which
> means they'll have to hunt in an appropriate environment - which means
> home. At most, you'll meet travelling Komodani within five or six jumps
> of Heath - say, ten to twenty parsecs max range? Any more and they
> won't be able to get home for their hunting instincts to come out.

Also, consider the requirement of a heightened heat source, brought 
about by the change that also gave rise to their intelligence.  In 
the beginning, the Komodani most likely couldn't have created 
artificial sources, but if you picture their homeworld as being, at 
least initially, volcanic, then the hotspots near volcanic areas 
becomes prime territory.  The need to possess this territory 
probably helped develop the intelligence of the species, and 
eventually, when reproducible means of creating and maintaining fire 
was developed, the population spread from the mountain ranges, etc, 
and into uncharted territory.

> Sounds like their thin veneer of civilization tears the moment they think
> someone has broken their One Law. Interesting, as a horde of tranquil
> philosophers become red-clawed predators at the drop of a faux-pas.

I like this interpretation, as it leads well into the next point.

> There's a problem with the description of the males as devoted to the
> pursuit of knowledge, and the description of the race as somewhat 
> plodding and slow to develop - unless, of course, Komodani just aren't
> that good at science and creative thinking. Combine a traditionalistic
> culture with individual random bouts of savagery, this might be the result.

Simply put, the Komodani aren't that bright, as a race.  Given their 
One Law, it would seem that the race is more prone to violent 
eruptions than they would like to be, and the One Law serves as their 
justification.  While not very advanced technologically, the Komodani 
are probably well developed in their Social structures, analyzing all 
situations with a view toward rationalizing their violent 
predispositions.  Hence the One Law becomes just that, the only law 
they need.  The permutations of its interpretation, however, could 
take volumes to cover.  A professor of ethics would have a field day 
on a research sabbatical on Heath, at least until he violated 
someone's personal freedom unintentionally.  <Adventure Idea>

> Imagines the First Contact team being introduced to the greatest
> Komodani philosophers and scientists, and realizing these worthies
> can't tell a hypothesis from a hypotenuse...but could shred you in a
> moment if you annoy them. <weg>

I like it!

Keep On Travellin',
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:21:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>URL, please.

>- -----Original Message-----

<snip>
How about trying?

>>http://www.3rd-imperium.com  chose Imperial Ship Yards.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:50:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Ship Design Rules

William Louis Cusick <maldeus@olg.com> wrote:


>I've tried to design ships using MT and T4, with some success in T4 and
>none in MT.  I see these ships designed with the HG rules, and I like
>the look of them.  Does anyone know where I could possibly get HG, or
>are the rules published separately anywhere?

You want Book 5 : High Guard. make sure it's the second edition though.

If you're in the UK try BITS, if you're in the US I'm sure someone else
will advise you.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:52:21 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Design Rules

 William Louis Cusick <maldeus@olg.com> wrote:

>Just for the info, what's the difference between 1st Ed and 2nd Ed HG?

The Ship Design System ;-)

It seems more complex and less straight forward. HG2 appears to have been
thought through a bit more.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:46:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

The Old Marquis, bless his heart, quoth:

"The Imperium would never need such a thing as "Black Ops".  Honrable
people act above board.   I am insulted at such a suggestion."

Respectfully Sir, Cleon the First's reduction and depopulation of Keshi
(1938 Core), the capital of the Chanestin Kingdom, in 2 Imperial could
hardly be called 'honourable'. Similarly, the sterilisation of an entire
planet's ecosystem such as practiced in Ilelish, or the entire basis of the
Zhunastu school of contact, are not actions which could ever be described
as honourable.

The Imperium grew from the actions of men and women which would not be
accepted in today's superficial, politically correct, Empire. These
people's decisions shaped our future, building an Empire greater than any
ever seen before. We should be thankful that we live in these sheltered,
stable, times and not in the blackness before the dawn of the new age, at
the ending of the Long Night. We do not have to face the same decisions,
nor test ourselves against morals and honour when they conflict political
demands in the same way our ancestors did.

To pretend the Imperium is innocent, and honourable, is to deceive oneself.
Honour is the guiding principle, but not a blinding principle as seen in
the Aslan. One has only to consider Cleon's ninety seventh edict to see
this any means necessary approach.

With kind regards,

A Realist.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:11:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Female TMLers? (was: Re: What DOES Ditzie look like?)

 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in your
>life.  A cat-call (I didn't see anything worse) at a cartoon that someone
>said was of her at age 16 (looks like mid-20's, to me) is hardly cause for
>you to stifle our fun and entertainment.

>Sure, abuse is ugly and I don't know what has gone on in your life, but
>there are surely people there who can help you with it.  I, for one, am not
>going to walk on eggshells and put on a sleeveless sweater and a bow tie and
>glasses just because of someone else's problems when they won't seek help.

Clif,

You disappoint me.

Truly.

At times you're thought provoking.

But then you go and say something like that.

Go away and don't come back until you can act like an adult.


ObTrav: None, I'm afraid.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:14:04 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Plug for IRC game

The band Tir Na n'Og is looking for more musicians and roadies to join
them as they tour the Spinward Marches in the "Magic Bus".  Many openings
available.

This GURPS:Traveller game meets on any Undernet server on the #traveller
chanel around 8:30pm Eastern.

Check the website for more info:
http://magicnet.net/~cmdrx/ircgame/index.html

Characters are basic 100 pointers with 40 disads and 5 quirks.  Ship
skills, technical skills, and musical skills are the norm.  Although
anything can fit the campaign, 

If you wish to join up with this merry band of mistrels, email me with
your character or catch me on IRC.

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:28:27 -0500
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: Free Mac 3-D modeling software (was 3-D deckplans)

Hi all,

I had this stored up from when I was not able to post...

After all the discussion on 3D tools I dug through my MacAddict
subscription and found nearly all the commercial 3-D packages on the Nov
98 CD-ROM. Most were demos (pixels:3d and cinema) but some were fully
functional (Strata3D 4.0)  

I heard someone say that Strata use to charge $10 but now the deal is
over. They distributed it for free with this issue. I don't know the
legalities of distributing something that was made freely available in
this manner. Can I legally give a copy to another user?

It's worth checking out to see if your favorite Mac zealot has this
issue.

Glenn (His own favorite Mac zealot)

FWIW, it appears my new account is working fine. I resubbed just in time
to watch Clif's departure. On my old account I was following a strict
"if it has the string 'clif' in it, kill it" rule.

______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers                 Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
ANSYS Inc.                       
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:30:56 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mostly Grav Tanks in combat

> to repower the 170 ton battery pack), there are still enough ATGMs floating
> around a TL9 battlefield to make at least a 20mm high ROF autocannon plus a
> small radar/ladar a good investment.

I don't have doubts bout the main or coaxial/secondary weapons on grav tanks
to be able to take an ATGM, at least if they have a ballistic computer and
stabalization.  For really convoluted systems, a dedicated pd platform is
needed.  IMOA.  YMMV.

> Now, an effective land point defense system has to be smaller and better,
> because ground vehicles and missiles are smaller.

We already have an MCD that works.  It isn't shooting down the incoming, but
it still works.  Radar, HRT/EMS sensors are standard on any grav tank, even
the TL9 ones.

> This will basically make solid rounds workable at TL9, obsolescent at TL10
> and obsolete at TL11, which is the way I feel it should be.
> 
> You might want to look at the FS Rapid Pulse Plasma Gun for an idea of what
> you can do at TL12 in the way of a point defense weapon.

Yup.  Also from the TL-15 PD APC in RCVG (RPW-15H, 18.5 Mj ROF 5 fusion gun).
That' up to 25 shots in one 5 second turn.  Pen Val: 129-129-65-13.

> >From lasers?  Given space combat ranges, the distance is small fries.  The
> >others could have an effect, but given the distance probably not a large
> >one...
> 
> The problem isnt the range, it's the refraction from differing densities in
> the atmosphere and so on. If you are trying to plug individual tanks from
> orbit, then 5 meters out with a laser just doesnt cut it.

From 3000 km, the TL11 80Mj laser found on the only "canon" ortillery squadron
in any books of mine (the 4518th Lift Infantry, the Duke of Regina's Own
Huscarles, which use system defense boats, presumably TL12 Shukugans) has a
performance of  1/7-22 in a standard atmosphere, which will be enough to ruin
any grav tanks day. (pen up to 166- of the high end Imperial/Regency vehicles
only the TL-15 Heavy Grav tank is safe on anything but the frontal arc).  A
whole grav tank division will be picked off if they can't do something to stop
the ortillery squadron (PDM, deep site, COACC friendly space forces), either.
Move up to TL12 120Mj (pen 255), much less TL15 150Mj (pen 322) or 210Mj (pen
444), lasers and it gets very messy.  

> One of the themes of the Imperial Rules of War is 'No-one makes War in
> space but us'. How broad or narrow this is depends on who's interpreting
> the deliberately loose guidelines.

Um... U mean with the ortillery?  I'm not assuming any particular scenario,
though this could apply an anti insurgency mission *by* the 3I or a combat
situation between the 3I and another power (Zhos, Solomani, K'kree vs Hivers,
etc).


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #328
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Monday, March 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 329



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
Ships Locker on Scout Ships
Solomani Confederation member states
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Gonzu Minor Race?
Re: Free Mac 3-D modeling software (was 3-D deckplans)
Scarey TMLers... :^)
Re: Scarey TMLers... :^)
Re: Don't be crass!
Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
re: Clif
Re: What Does Ditzie Look Like?
Re: Relic starships on planet surface
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
RE: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
[none]
Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
Re: Relic starships on planet surface

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:30:53 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: KB warning - New Ditzie "shots" :)

> Actually, AOL's internal browser is an older IE, and has this "amusing"
>format it drops some graphics into when saving them to cache:
>AOL "ART". These files can be either GIFs or JPEGs originally, but
>the AOL cache version is unopenable in anything but AOL. I hate
>to debase Jesse's work by screen-shotting it and recropping,
>which is why I asked.

You can always right click and "save as" which lets u save in the format
presented (gif, jpg, etc).  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:30:51 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

> Didn't TNE use a DR system? I've only seen the cover... so I know almost
> nothing about TNE.

Nope.  Damage Value and Penetration Rating vs Armor Value for character scale.
Vehicles up use a penetration value (divide DV by Pen Rtg) vs armor value.

A TL-13 gauss pistol w/ dart ammo has a Pen of Nil and won't penetrate a
Combat Environment Suit (AV 1).  HEAP rounds have a DV of 3 and Pen of 2-2-2.
Joe Genero would take 1 dice of damage and has 14 points in the head, 42 in
the chest and 28 for everything else.  Max possible damage from one shot is 24
(6 x 2 for outstanding success x 2 for quick kill), which is serious to the
head, slight to the chest, and serious to everything else.  Damage to an
unarmored Joe Genero has a max possible of 48 by dart, which will critical
everything but the chest (serious), and 72 by HEAP (ditto).

I use TNE w/ D10s for damage and the T2k quick kill, which tailored
particulars more towards my tastes.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:47:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Douglas Glatz wrote:

> Back in the late '80s, when I was stationed on a cruiser and part of the
> SAT/BAF, our primary weapons were .45s and shotguns.  Topside security would
> be given a M-14 (which I still prefer to the M-16).  On the Nimitz, the
> Marines had M-16s, but us swabbies still had shotguns.

With Scouts expected to be out of the ship a fair amount of time, in
potentially hostile environments, and with their primary threat being from
animals, how about a good hunting rifle style weapon in addition to
shotguns? With a few of each, it seems a scout crew woul;d be well
equipped for their mission.

Is there a real-life vessel analogous to a Scout Courier in mission?

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:47:20 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

 "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> types with a hangnail from a
weasel powered keyboard:
>IMTC I gave the party ACR's in a Donosev locker, one of the players an 
>old traveller hand, commented that this was a lot of fire power and that 
>the ACR was primarily a military weapon...I guess I was going on the 
>fact that on U.S. Naval vessals..they keep M16's in the ships 
>locker...General comments? Flames? :)

IMTU, the IISS is part of the Imperial Military, so putting an ACR in the
locker is not out of line.
Personally, I'm suprised he didn't try the argument that they should have
gauss rifles. :-)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
      Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:59:53 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Solomani Confederation member states

Is there anythign canonical (DGP) on the member states in the Solomani
Confederation?  In particular, i'm looking for anything on the Bootean
Federation, Old Earth Union, Protectorate of Cthonia, and Turin Consolidation.
Most desired is anything on the last two.  I do have Rats & Cats.

I presume Unbroken Pride is very detailed on the OEU (you ever get a version
in a format I can read, Mick?), but is there anything on the Protectorate of
Cthonia and Turin Consolidation in there?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:05:01 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

> I've added a simple "holographic" display (that can be rotated)
> on the  bridge and some comm panels about the ship.  Any feedback
> appreciated.  


Sticking in an animation loop where it rotates on the axis may be
a good look.  The general problem with transparent objects is that
their implementation varies from browser to browser.  At home with
my Riva TNT card it looks nice.  At work, the browser defaults to
'screen door' tranparency and the look isn't as good.

Perhaps replacing the sphere with a neon green 3d cross hair (at
the center of the sphere) would aid in the illusion.  Possibly
bright green with alternating dark green can be used to built a
grid.  Alternately, a transparent GIF can be used to great effect
as a circular grid on the 'horizon'.

> I'd also like to find a small (<100 kB) film clip (mpeg, avi...)
> of a space battle to display on the bridge's viewscreen.  If 
> anyone knows of one let me know.  I'd appreciate it.

One possiblity is to chorigraph the fight off the bow of the ship
and add a LOD group to easy the CPU burden when not at the bridge.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:59:55 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Gonzu Minor Race?

Does anyone know anything bout the "Gonzu" minor race at 2221 Old Expanses
(subsector K, Old Expanses)?  It's referenced in the Planet III data and am
curious on whether i'm going to be doing it myself for MTU, or if there's
nething I can base it on.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:14:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Free Mac 3-D modeling software (was 3-D deckplans)

Glenn Myers wrote:

> After all the discussion on 3D tools I dug through my MacAddict
> subscription and found nearly all the commercial 3-D packages on the Nov
> 98 CD-ROM. Most were demos (pixels:3d and cinema) but some were fully
> functional (Strata3D 4.0)

Pixels 3D 2.1.4 (an older version) is available for free as well, see
www.pixels.com but you have to call them for a serial #. Then they have
your address and phone # to bug you to upgrade.
 
> I heard someone say that Strata use to charge $10 but now the deal is
> over. They distributed it for free with this issue. I don't know the
> legalities of distributing something that was made freely available in
> this manner. Can I legally give a copy to another user?

The $10 Strata was charging was S/H; the product is listed as free on
their web site. As to the legalities, I have no clue, but since they're
giving it away in mass fashion like that I rather doubt they'd care.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:42:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Scarey TMLers... :^)

Tascelt@aol.com writes:

> <<  "Never wrestle with a pig.  All you get is
>  filthy and the pig loves it." :^(
>  
>          - Mark C.
>            Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>            EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>            Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>            NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>            Front Sight First Family member #1
>   >>
> 
> Ok, it's official, I'm scarred of Mark.

Hmmm.  I'm not sure which is the scarey part: my vita or the comment
about the pig! :^)

Jesse <fenris@slip.net> writes:

> Oh, you're just scared of him 'cause he shoots better'n you :)  Of course,
> I've always shot better than you as well *weg*!!

Well, I can't really speak to that.  I'm pretty fair with a handgun
but my wife Lori is a match for me in both SMG and Tac. Shotgun.

You know, Jesse, if you're ever up north, you *really* should stop
by so I can play host out at the range for an afternoon.

ObTrav (and on a totally different topic): I love what you did with
the IISS artwork on the Type-S.  My current plan is to have my own 
copy of Lightwave in house by the end of May.  Then, prepare yourself
for a *flood* of questions!! :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:18:04 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Scarey TMLers... :^)

My cousin's folks live just up above Klamath and we go up there
occaisionally.  Willamette's a wee bit north of that though :)  Hmmm, a
special road trip may be in order, especially if Class III is involved
*weg*.  Maybe I can pry Todd away from work for a bit as well.  I've only
had the pleasure of firing CIII stuff once, not counting airsoft.  Your
WIFE'S better with SMG and shotgun than you are?  What is she, ex-FBI HRT or
something?  very *weg*!!

It'll be my pleasure to answer every question I can about Lightwave.  I'm
still learning myself, but I am a bit further along than you are currently
;)  I can certainly help quite a bit with the initial learning curve.  The
trick is definately the textures.  Do those right and a mediocre mesh is
suddenly steller (pun intended!).

Best,
Jesse



>Well, I can't really speak to that.  I'm pretty fair with a handgun
>but my wife Lori is a match for me in both SMG and Tac. Shotgun.
>
>You know, Jesse, if you're ever up north, you *really* should stop
>by so I can play host out at the range for an afternoon.
>
>ObTrav (and on a totally different topic): I love what you did with
>the IISS artwork on the Type-S.  My current plan is to have my own
>copy of Lightwave in house by the end of May.  Then, prepare yourself
>for a *flood* of questions!! :^)
>
>        - Mark C.
>          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>          Front Sight First Family member #1
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
> 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
>    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
>    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
>    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
>    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836)
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:58:19 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Don't be crass!

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Just send me unsubscribe directions so I want have to walk on eggshells for
>someone who won't get the help he needs to keep from freaking out over
>comments about a freaking CARTOON!

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:
	unsubscribe traveller-digest
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".

I assume that you send
	unsubscribe traveller
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".

if you want out of the non-Digest version.

Bye.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:20:17 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

Couldn't help it, that impulse control problem again....

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:17:06 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

In a message dated 3/22/99 10:59:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< IMTC I gave the party ACR's in a Donosev locker, one of the players an 
 old traveller hand, commented that this was a lot of fire power and that 
 the ACR was primarily a military weapon...I guess I was going on the 
 fact that on U.S. Naval vessals..they keep M16's in the ships 
 locker...General comments? Flames? :)
 Mike
 Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
  >>

I would give them weapons that are good for repelling boarders, but not
powerful enough that they can bully the neighbors. Since the crew of a
Donosev's role dirtside is to play "sneaky pete" and observe and report
undectected; this shouldn't be a problem. Of course if they abuse the
priveledge; send an AHL with some Marine boarders to reposses the ship...:-).
I usually just issue my civilian PC's carbines and/or shotguns (depending on
their skills); but I've mostly been in low violence campaigns; except for the
one time my character "found" a set of battledress and a FGMP. Very fun until
the Marines came to reposses the suit...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:29:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Clif

Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com> wrote:

>He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
>Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.

Due to timing of the Digest some of my posts may follow this announcement.
Apologies.

Dom

PS What happens if he re-subs?

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:42:55 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: What Does Ditzie Look Like?

I think that I may be the one to owe the list an apology - as
near as I can tell, I'm the only one that made even a mildly
suggestive remark in connection with Jesse's Ditzie portraits -
and my comment was referring to the very first version, where one
could believe that the Ditzie pictured was legal.

As I recall, the remark I made was to the effect of "If I didn't
know what she did for a living, and under what conditions, I'd
flirt with her".

I get the digest version of the list, and I only check my mail
once a day.  Thus, when I reply, it usually ends up in the _next_
day's digest load.  So, by the time my comment above made it to
the digest, it's quite likely that Jesse's misconception had been
corrected, and the picture in question had been removed (I
_still_ think it should have been left up - it's a good
picture!).  I don't know what the delay to the reflector list is;
it may or may not have been down by the time my message got to
the reflector folks.

If I've offended anyone by my remark, I apologize.  More, I
apologize for making a remark that apparently set off a couple of
people; such was _not_ my intent.  I was thinking of it as a
compliment to Jesse's drawing skill - a skill that I wish I had,
but don't, not by a long shot.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:48:02 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Relic starships on planet surface

Glenn Myers wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> This is kind of a test post to see if my posting problems have been
> eliminated.
>
> I've been working on an intro scenario for trav and I'm trying to
> determine some way of preserving a relic starship on a plant surface for
> use by future generation. As an example - a critical starship component
> is broken and the crew of a vessel wants to preserve the ship for future
> use if a replacement part can be manufactured. Any ideas on how long the
> basic integrity of the systems (airlock seals, etc. ) can be relied on
> in a standard earth type atmosphere.
>
> The tar pits come to mind, perhaps pump the ship full of noble gas and
> coat it in tar?

How long you want to preserve it?

Slight internal overpressure should keep the other gases out.

If you can put it in a cave, or in this case, put a cave around it,
to protect it from the elements, that would help.  I'd think about
burying it too, to preserve it from erosive effects of the environment
if thats a concern.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:47:06 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

At 02:20 PM 3/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Couldn't help it, that impulse control problem again....
>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm

Looks like Ditze just vaped her crash test dummy...

BTW, nice shoes on the victim...



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:38:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
> > Didn't TNE use a DR system? I've only seen the cover... so I know almost
> > nothing about TNE.

<TNE example snipped>

GURPS example:
Gauss Pistol does 6d(2).  This is a projectile weapon, so blowthrough occurs at
1x HT.  This is an AP projectile, so damage is halved after applying DR.  The
order in which the halving and the blowthrough occur is not entirely clear,
arguments can be made both ways.  We will assume we are shooting at Joe Genero
(HT 10)
If blowthrough occurs first, damage is almost always 5.  Roughly a 50% chance
that Joe is knocked down; if he isn't, 50% chance he's stunned.  Zero chance of
direct lethality, though if untreated he has a small chance of bleeding to
death.
If blowthrough occurs second, there's about a 60% chance of doing 10 points,
which will on average render Joe unconscious in about 2 seconds (and have
effects as above); otherwise effects are basically as above.  There is a
moderate chance of bleeding to death.

If the shot was in the brain, average damage is 40, Joe makes 5 death checks
and has about a 97% chance of dying, and is automatically unconscious; assuming
he survives, bleeding to death is likely.

If the shot was in the vitals, average damage is 31, Joe makes 3 death checks
and has about a 87% chance of dying; assuming he survives, bleeding to death is
likely.

Note, however, that the gauss pistol in GT is a fully automatic weapon, and is
in fact rather low lethality.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:49:56 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

On Monday, 22 March 1999 16:20, Jesse DeGraff [SMTP:fenris@slip.net] wrote:
> Couldn't help it, that impulse control problem again....
> 
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm
> 
> Jesse


That's it!  You are one twisted, sick, demented, perverted sentient being.


I like it!


 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:59:09 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

Classic Ditzie "Oops, did I do that?"
>:)

Jesse


>Looks like Ditze just vaped her crash test dummy...
>
>BTW, nice shoes on the victim...
>
>
>
>Kurt Feltenberger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:00:38 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

Rob Prior just wrote to me, with respect to Clif:

>I thought I'd explained that I _understood_ that this was banter, but that
>it was getting very close to a real-life case I'm still dealing with.  I'm
>squeezing counselling sessions into a 70-hour work week, and his right to
>sound off about whatever he likes seems to take priority over everything
>else.
>
>I'm off the Mailing List for a while, I think.  I won't unsubscribe,
>but I probably won't read.  Please let me know if anything interesting
>happens (I'll save the digests for a while, so just the digest number will
>do).
>
>I'm also going to concentrate my gaming on Space: 1889.  I'll finish 101
>Starships
>for you, and send along those plots, but my (limited) gaming time will be
>reserved
>for 1889 for a while.

This *is* edited. Those of you who know Rob will now that he is usually
impeccably polite, and constructive, and does not tend to flame up. Suffice
it to say that he was not happy.

The upshot of this is that all Rob's Traveller software work is off for the
foreseeable future, plus he will no longer be contributing further new
material to BITS or from his own site. This, in my opinion (which is biased
as I consider Rob a personal friend) is a great loss to the TML, to BITS,
and to Traveller, for which you can thank Clif.

I could rant here, but the perpetrator has run away, and it isn't worth it.
Maybe if enough people contact Rob, maybe if people are a little more
supportive, maybe if people think of others before they write, maybe he'll
be back sooner rather than later. That is if you prefer the contribution of
someone who has written material for Traveller since MT days, has provided
some really good GURPS Traveller and T4 material both as shareware and
freely, and is always positive. If you prefer the *contributions* of the
likes of Clif, perhaps you'd like to say so I can consider unsubscribing
too.

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:05:33 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

At 05:17 PM 3/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>one time my character "found" a set of battledress and a FGMP. Very fun until
>the Marines came to reposses the suit...

What are the limits of the "weapon" mustering out benefit?  The book says,
IIRC, that it is applicable to a skill the character has, and subsequent
rolls of "weapon" can either mean multiple weapons or additional skill
levels.  We had a character muster out recently and his only weapons skill
was high energy weapons.  To compound things he was from a TL-15 world and
mustered out on a TL-15 world.  

Since he did not have battledress, there was only one weapon he qualified
for...FGMP-15.  Granted, the scenario was a trip into the jaws of hell, and
the firepower helped, I still can not come to terms that the Imperial
Marines would allow someone to claim a fusion gun as a benefit of service
unless the handwave was that he was doing 'odd jobs' for the Marines and
they knew where he might end up.

Comments?

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:04:04 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Relic starships on planet surface

No, no, no, don't use vacuum! Best way to preserve it would be to seal
it INSIDE a cavern or a hanger, etc. leave the lock doors open and fill
the container with nitrogen, ensureing that all oxygen is evacuated
during the process. A system of monitoring the nitrogen pressure, and
adding to it as needed to insure that a positive (above normal
atmospheric) pressure is maintaind, is also desirable.

Unfortuantely, this method doesn't make any allowances for gravity
"settling". Many of the components will suffer some warpage, dependant
on time. A check of all air-tight joints and a good balancing for any
rotating parts (such as generator rotors) would be needed during
re-commisioning.

Not sure what long term gravity effects on electronic components might
be.

By the way the nitrogen container storage method is how most large
machinery rotors are stored. They are typically "hung" by one end in
storage to reduce the effects of gravity warpage. At my facility we've
used this  method to store rotors for up to a decade, with a 1# positive
nitrogen blanket. Once unsealed they've shown no deterioration. They
were also check balanced and found to need very little re-work before
use.

Hmmm, you might concider disassembling delicate components and storing
them external of the craft in proper storage containers. This might
eleminate some of the gravitic effects.

Mike

j a c wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:54:17 -0500 Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
> writes:
> >The tar pits come to mind, perhaps pump the ship full of noble gas
> >and
> >coat it in tar?
> >
> >Hope this gets through,
> >
> >Glenn
> 
> Dont use tar, corrosive.  You need to get hold of some natural rubber or
> latex, coat it in that, the noble gas idea sounds good, though a vacuum
> would be better.  Be sure you get the humidity down if you use a gas.
> 
> JimC
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #329
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 330



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Relic starships on planet surface
Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
why cant you children grow up?
Re: 
Re: Mustering Out Bennies 
Re: What does Ditzie look like?
Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
At your request
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat (was Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System)
Re: Scout Ships (was Re: Ships Locker on ...)
Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
Brown Bess vs BD (was: Re: Ship Classes)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED : Traveller-digest V1999 #318
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Rob
Re: Mustering Out Bennies
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED : Traveller-digest V1999 #318
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Best Way to Post Ship Designs?
Re: Rob
Re: UNCLASSIFIED : Traveller-digest V1999 #318
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Re: Relic starships on planet surface
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:05:24 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Relic starships on planet surface

Things in this world seem to be best preserved in very dry places without alot
of exposure to wind.   A relic ship that crash landed in desert and was
quickly covered up with alot of sand could be preserved a long time.  Papyrus
buried in sand lasts thousands of years.  The key is shelter from both wind
and water

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:12:12 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

In a message dated 3/22/99 1:59:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< MTC I gave the party ACR's in a Donosev locker, one of the players an 
 old traveller hand, commented that this was a lot of fire power and that 
 the ACR was primarily a military weapon...I guess I was going on the 
 fact that on U.S. Naval vessals..they keep M16's in the ships 
 locker...G >>

	An ACR in a scout ship's locker sounds perfectly appropriate.   It is a
military weapon but it is not all that much more damaging than a hunting
rifle, only with a higher ROF.   I believe all sorts of paramilitary groups in
modern world (equivalent to scouts) would have such as M-16 (ACR-7) weapons
availible as back-up  (US Coast Guard, Treasury Agents, Border Patrol etc).
Now if you included a Plasma Gun or mortar, maybe he'd have something to gripe
about.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:15:07 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: why cant you children grow up?

look,

i was trying to stay out of this, but i really am getting fed up with your
childish attitudes.  the great attack Clif thing is over. He has left the
group, so drop it. all it dose is prove he was more MORALLY superior to you
since he left the mailing list.

i had assumed we were all adults, but i guess i am dreadfully wrong on this
little thought.  

Clif had brought up lots of good ideas as well as some really messed up stuff.
thats what a DELETE button is for if you dont like what some one says.  But
HEY some fo you who have Attacked Clif have been in the same boat as he was.
You have posted some good, some bad and some really sorry stuff that many did
not aggree to.

as for the whole child molestation thing. why dont you grow up. no one
promoted it, nor wnted it. and trying to place the blame of some sick
individuals on society as a whole is dreadfully wrong.  it dose not take a
village to raise a child, nor a mentally deranged person. it takes that
persons family to raise them.

I should know, since i am the victim of a homosexual rape, and i was not
offended by the whole ditzie thread since i pretty much ignored it while i did
let myself enjoy some new traveller (some what) related artwork.  if you find
it so damn impressionable you should have ignored it as well.  

next time, show some dignity and not act so damn childish.

richard

Ps to Dom: i will not write to someone who has childishly has picked up his
toys and gone home after he has succeeded in what he wanted in the first
place. this is the kind of childish behaviour i was hoping to get away form.
i prefered to have joined a list where your personal oppions are kept off list
and we could discuss the game we all love to play, but it seems that this list
keeps refueseing to do this. You wanted Clif of the list, now he is. You WON,
so stop your bloody childish attacks or you can act even more childish by
joining in with the rest with the rejoicing and fun that has been going on all
day?

As far as i am concerned if this list dosnt grow up some more ill be
unsubscribing soon as well.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:26:40 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: 

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> The upshot of this is that all Rob's Traveller software work is off for the
> foreseeable future, plus he will no longer be contributing further new
> material to BITS or from his own site. This, in my opinion (which is biased
> as I consider Rob a personal friend) is a great loss to the TML, to BITS,
> and to Traveller, for which you can thank Clif.

Well, I can't claim Rob as a personal friend, since I don't know him. However, I
consider him one of the people on the TML that I pay attention to. I get the TML
in individual post form, not as the digest, so I found it easy to ignore Clif.
Thus, he didn't bother me.

It is unfortunate that one arrogant jerk has ruined the "taste" of the TML for
someone who posts quality stuff. The TML has suffered a loss with Rob's absence.
Speaking for me, Rob will be missed.

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:31:37 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies 

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> What are the limits of the "weapon" mustering out benefit?  The book says,
> IIRC, that it is applicable to a skill the character has, and subsequent
> rolls of "weapon" can either mean multiple weapons or additional skill
> levels.  We had a character muster out recently and his only weapons skill
> was high energy weapons.  To compound things he was from a TL-15 world and
> mustered out on a TL-15 world.
> 

IIRC, the first year of military service is basic training, and the character
gets Combat Rifleman skill (or whatever the equivalent is in the flavor of
Traveller you play). That means that, IMTU, each military character must be
qualified on a weapon like an ACR. So the mustering out benefit would be an ACR
in this case.

> Since he did not have battledress, there was only one weapon he qualified
> for...FGMP-15.  Granted, the scenario was a trip into the jaws of hell, and
> the firepower helped, I still can not come to terms that the Imperial
> Marines would allow someone to claim a fusion gun as a benefit of service
> unless the handwave was that he was doing 'odd jobs' for the Marines and
> they knew where he might end up.

You're right. IMTU, the military doesn't allow "military weapons" to be
mustering out benefits. The exact definition of that term is open to debate,
naturally. I generally translate it to mean "reasonable weapon".

If the character does have an FGMP-15, there are certain problems you can impose
upon the character to make life interesting. If the weapon breaks down, there
are only a few worlds where it can be serviced (the nearest Marine base is, of
course, not normally an option for civilians). As an energy weapon, it's very
illegal on worlds with a law level of 1 or 2 (I forget which). Plus a weapon
that powerful is bound to be in demand by disreputable types on any world.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:41:35 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: What does Ditzie look like?

Jeff Zeitlin writes:

>...my comment was referring to the very first version, where one
>could believe that the Ditzie pictured was legal.
> 
>[...]
>
>I _still_ think it should have been left up - it's a good picture!).

Allow me to concur. So it isn't Ditzie. I can always use a picture of a
strong character (male or female) for my games. I like being able to
show my players a picture and say "This is what he/she looks like."
Unfortunately I can't put pen to paper without ruining both, so I'm
forced to fall back on photocopies and, nowadays, gifs (Strictly
personal use, btw.). So put her up again, Jesse, please?

Mind you, although I think the Young Ditzie pictures are fun, I can't
actually use them for anything (I'm not letting Ditzie into any of MY
universes, thank you very much! I spend far too much time building them...)
And if Legal Ditzie is carrying a MegaGun, I'll be hard pressed to find
a use for her, but maybe she'd do for a certain NPC... Anyway, I'd like
to see it.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:50:00 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

thanks to all for the helpful comments....

Mike





Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:55:16 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: At your request

If you scroll to the very bottom of the Ditzie page, there's a plain ol'
text link to the older version.  You're not the first one to request this,
so by popular demand it's back up for those of you miss it.

Best,
Jesse




>Jeff Zeitlin writes:
>
>>...my comment was referring to the very first version, where one
>>could believe that the Ditzie pictured was legal.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>I _still_ think it should have been left up - it's a good picture!).
>
>Allow me to concur. So it isn't Ditzie. I can always use a picture of a
>strong character (male or female) for my games. I like being able to
>show my players a picture and say "This is what he/she looks like."
>Unfortunately I can't put pen to paper without ruining both, so I'm
>forced to fall back on photocopies and, nowadays, gifs (Strictly
>personal use, btw.). So put her up again, Jesse, please?
>
>Mind you, although I think the Young Ditzie pictures are fun, I can't
>actually use them for anything (I'm not letting Ditzie into any of MY
>universes, thank you very much! I spend far too much time building them...)
>And if Legal Ditzie is carrying a MegaGun, I'll be hard pressed to find
>a use for her, but maybe she'd do for a certain NPC... Anyway, I'd like
>to see it.
>
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk
>------------
>        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>         events based on the individual situation."
>                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:37:15 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat (was Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System)

- ----------
> From: Shawn Campbell <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Combine MT with G:T combat (was Alt. CT/MT Combat/Damage System)
> Date: 21. maaliskuuta 1999 22:44
>
- ----bzzz----
 
> Doesn't G:T seem a lot deadlier? Consider a Gurps character on average
has
> 10 HT and a traveller character has 21 lifeforce (7's in ST, DX, EN). It
> could take 4 shots with the guass pistol in MT to kill and just 1 in
Gurps.
> How damaging should a guass pistol be?
> 
One must remember that in GURPS there is the "blow-thru"-rule, that states
that on a normal body hit a bullet attack can only do up to HT of damage.
Also as the death caused by damage over 2xHT can be avoided by a succesful
HT rolls, it can take from 2 to 6 average damage (21 pts, 10 after
blow-thru) hits to kill an unarmored character.

- ----bzzz-----

> Thanks,
> Shawn Campbell
> electric-stitch@w-link.net
> IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)
> 

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:09:26 -0700
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Scout Ships (was Re: Ships Locker on ...)

> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:47:40 -0800 (PST)
> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
> Subject: Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
> 
> Is there a real-life vessel analogous to a Scout Courier in mission?

Russian "trawler"? Probably smells about the same...

There really is little need for such a vessel in this age of more-or-less
instant communications. Prior to the advent of the wireless, a frigate or
packet steamer was probably closest in function. A PBY "Catalina" amphibian
might be a mid-20th century equivalent.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:32:50 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote

>Just how does the Imperium regard war. Does it follow Clausewitz
>and concentrate on the drive on the enemy capital? or does it follow Mahan
>and pick away at the edges, slowly weakening their opponent?

To quote G:T STAR MERCS: "First Orbital Craft...gain control of the upper
atmosphere and close orbit , allowing orbital bombardment of ground
targets....ground combat is characterized by short strikes of unbelievable
ferocity....drop troops, commandos....grav armor with APC's...the aim being
to being to daze the enemy into paralysis, envelope and annihilate...by
overwhelming firepower...Territory can be taken for free later, once the
enemy's ability to resist is shattered"

I think that that about says it!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:51:46 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Brown Bess vs BD (was: Re: Ship Classes)

Dear Folks -

Sethkimmel asked:
>a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

>>Along comes your TL 3 guerilla with his/her rifled musket,
>>triangular socket bayonet, paint bomb and a few human looking
>>local critter decoys...

>Unless said guerilla pushes the paint blinded trooper off a cliff;
>how's a Brown Bess going to crack open battledress?

From the Digest battledress article: the armour "has a few dangerously weak
spots" such as the visor which is only the equivalent of cloth.

Basically, you need a pinpoint shot to penetrate the armour. Probably your
average joe could't do it, but if you were facing Daniel Day-Lewis* you
would be in trouble.

* (or at least his "Last of the Moccasins" character. Or that other famous
Daniel, "Boone". Or the guy from "Tangos With Dingos". Etc, etc.)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:34:57 +1100
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED : Traveller-digest V1999 #318

	Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:24:03 -0800
	From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
	Subject: RE: Colonization

	>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
	>Subject: RE: Colonization
	...
	>	How did/does crown land work? What deal did the Hudson's 
	>	Bay Company have? /...

	  The HBC would have had exclusive trading rights within the
North-West -
	the British Crown never claimed to own the land, I suspect.
Certainly
	monopoly trading companies were very popular with early modern
European
	governments, not least because they brought private capital into
service
	of State interests (which was a two-way street...).

	  For most of the period Crown land would likely simply have been
land
	that wasn't held as private property (ignoring aboriginals here);
IIRC,
	nowadays Crown land is only rarely alienated (B.C. is a special case
so
	I'm not sure if that applies back east :> ).

	  Perhaps someone could give us an Oz perspective?

	        Steven Hudson

Pretty much the case here. It was all considered Crown Land and squatter's
then purchased rights to it from the crown (not sure how much it was
though). I think 70% of Australia is still crown land which is then leased
in 99 year leases to farmers and the like, unless it is national parkland,
then we just lease bits of it so they can mine uranium. Conservative
government, what are you going to do. 

Although purchases from Natives did occur such as Melbourne, which was
bought for blankets and knives and when that didn't work, we committed
genocide (white settlers were very enthusiastic ethnic cleansers of the
first order). 

As for native rights, their lack of it boils down to the fact that legally
Australia was regarded as Terra Anullius, (I think it means unclaimed land.)
Essentially as Aborigines didn't claim it (hell, they couldn't understand
the concept of boundaries and were nomadic to boot) then they lost it. 

A similar situation could make any colonization of planets with sentient
life quite interesting.

PS Sorry if I answered this wrongly. What's the protocol?

Michael Hughes

Australian Department of Defence

	

	

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:39:48 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

- ----------
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
> Date: 23. maaliskuuta 1999 0:38
> 
> 
- ----bzzz----

> GURPS example:
> Gauss Pistol does 6d(2).  This is a projectile weapon, so blowthrough
occurs at
> 1x HT.  This is an AP projectile, so damage is halved after applying DR. 
The
> order in which the halving and the blowthrough occur is not entirely
clear,
> arguments can be made both ways.  We will assume we are shooting at Joe
Genero
> (HT 10)

The blow-through rule is not clearly stated in any part of the rules, but
judging by the examples in G:High-tech, the blow-through limit is not
affected by the bullet type multiplier. Therefore the second of your
examples is correct.

> If blowthrough occurs first, damage is almost always 5.  Roughly a 50%
chance
> that Joe is knocked down; if he isn't, 50% chance he's stunned.  Zero
chance of
> direct lethality, though if untreated he has a small chance of bleeding
to
> death.
> If blowthrough occurs second, there's about a 60% chance of doing 10
points,
> which will on average render Joe unconscious in about 2 seconds (and have
> effects as above); otherwise effects are basically as above.  There is a
> moderate chance of bleeding to death.
> 
- ----bzzz----

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:49:00 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Rob

Rob Prior is a decent guy, a concerned educator (which are rare in this
world, a lot of the time) and a creative person who has some real talent
which he shares with us.

Clif is a piece of human flotsam who occasionally manages to belch out
something that seems semi-useful. This is no way even begins to balance the
scales for the abusive crap he has inflicted on this list.

I think the trade should be obvious, and I hope now that the garbage has
been taken out, Rob will consider returning.

Allen

ObTrav: some garbage has to get ejected out the airlock for the good of the
ship....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:58:50 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies

In a message dated 3/22/99 6:32:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, efritz@GLJA.com
writes:

<< 
 You're right. IMTU, the military doesn't allow "military weapons" to be
 mustering out benefits. The exact definition of that term is open to debate,
 naturally. I generally translate it to mean "reasonable weapon".
  >>

	As a rule of thumb, I've always allowed weapons roughly equivalent to Book 1
(CT weapons) as mustering out weapons:   rifles, laser rifles, auto rifles
yes,  plasma and fusion guns no.  I generally allow ACR's to Army and Marine
characters since they aren't too different from autorifles.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:05:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED : Traveller-digest V1999 #318

From 1860's to 1970's  public land in the US (equivalent to Crown Lands
elsewhere) could be gotten for free by private citizens, who staked a claim
and actually lived on the land for at least 5 years and built a "cabin" or
house.   There was a acreage limit, of course, but it allowed settlement by
people of modest means.  The lan, called the Homestead Act was proposed by
Lincoln and abolsihed by Jimmy Carter.

ObTrav:  This would be a good way of establishing colonization rights:  you
gain legal ownership if you actually live on the planet and develope it for a
period of time.

					Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:19:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

> The blow-through rule is not clearly stated in any part of the rules, but
> judging by the examples in G:High-tech, the blow-through limit is not
> affected by the bullet type multiplier. Therefore the second of your
> examples is correct.

I believe there's a discussion of this point in compendium II, actually,
suggesting that one could do it the other way instead.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:27:00 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?

A couple of questions about how best to post my T4 ship designs for your
use:

1.  Currently, I post the text description to my Web site in Rich Text
Format (because I want to preserve the formatting).  Is this a problem? 
Is RTF accessible enough cross-platform?  Should I forget the
formatting, and post in plain text?

2.  I occassionally post plain-text ship descriptions to the TML.  Is
this a waste of bandwidth?  Would you prefer that I merely alert you to
new ships on my site?

3.  I also post the Excel 5.0 spreadsheet (in .zip format) to my Web
site.  Do you find this useful?  Has anybody used the spreadsheet to
modify my designs?  (If so, let me see!)

4.  Some of my T4 designs are conversions of my HG2 designs.  Would
there be much interest in my posting the HG version as well?

Your feedback is appreciated.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:39:31 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Rob

This is getting out of hand.

I think it is great that we can all rally around someone we know only on a
mailing list.  I value Rob's input, and I feel it's a shame that he decided
to withdraw from active participation on the list.  I look forward to his
eventual return.

It was, however, his choice.

I haven't voluntarily read a message from Clif for 2 months, unless the
response showed it to be something worthwhile.  For a while, I stopped
reading the responses because they were as low in Traveller content as the
original posts - unless someone whose opinion I respected chimed in.  Still,
I think it's a shame that he found it necessary to leave the list.  (read
that - finally badgered and driven off the list)  We are trying to promote
interest in Traveller as a whole, not just our particular visions of how it
should be.  Every person we drive away is that much less support we will
have in the future.

I find it completely reprehensible that the personal attacks on him are
continuing *after* he has withdrawn from the list.

ObTrav - there is nothing remotely resembling Traveller in this post or in
any of the posts in this ugly thread.  I would not sully the game by trying
to bring in a traveller reference.  Hopefully, this will be the last post on
this topic.  If you find it necessary to discuss this with me, do it
off-list.  My email address is, as always, douglas@teleport.com

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Allen Shock <ashock@gte.net>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:18 PM
Subject: Rob


>Rob Prior is a decent guy, a concerned educator (which are rare in this
>world, a lot of the time) and a creative person who has some real talent
>which he shares with us.
>
>Clif is a piece of human flotsam who occasionally manages to belch out
>something that seems semi-useful. This is no way even begins to balance the
>scales for the abusive crap he has inflicted on this list.
>
>I think the trade should be obvious, and I hope now that the garbage has
>been taken out, Rob will consider returning.
>
>Allen
>
>ObTrav: some garbage has to get ejected out the airlock for the good of the
>ship....
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:40:27 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED : Traveller-digest V1999 #318

>
>PS Sorry if I answered this wrongly. What's the protocol?
>
>Michael Hughes
>
>Australian Department of Defence


Looked fine to me!  :)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because 
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:57:52 -0800
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

>Anthony Jackson wrote:
> If blowthrough occurs first, damage is almost always 5.  Roughly a 50%
>chance > that Joe is knocked down; if he isn't, 50% chance he's stunned.
>Zero chance of direct lethality, though if untreated he has a small chance
>of bleeding to death.
> If blowthrough occurs second, there's about a 60% chance of doing 10
>points, which will on average render Joe unconscious in about 2 seconds
>(and have effects as above); otherwise effects are basically as above.
>There is a moderate chance of bleeding to death.

I didn't even know of the blow-through rules. Sadly, the only gurps rules I
have are the "Gurps Lite". I was only basing my examples on what I saw in
the G:T book and the Gurps Lite.

>Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Gauss Pistol does 6d(2).  This is a projectile weapon, so blowthrough
>occurs at 1x HT.  This is an AP projectile, so damage is halved after
>applying DR.

Is the G:T book in error? On page 110 it states that Gauss Guns fire
high-intensity dart ammunition. Armor DR is halved, but damage is not halved
after penetrating DR.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:29:15 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Relic starships on planet surface

I'm not certain of all of the techniques that are used, but I can advise you
to look up the techniques used by the navy when they "mothball" vessels. I
know that our old family Encyclopedia Americana (c.1957 edition) had a nice
little essay on this topic.  Good luck!
Ken

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:37:51 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

"Shawn @ Electric Stitch" wrote:

> >Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Gauss Pistol does 6d(2).  This is a projectile weapon, so blowthrough
> >occurs at 1x HT.  This is an AP projectile, so damage is halved after
> >applying DR.
 
> Is the G:T book in error? On page 110 it states that Gauss Guns fire
> high-intensity dart ammunition. Armor DR is halved, but damage is not halved
> after penetrating DR.

I'm no GURPS expert, but that's about way I read the rules too, and I
mean the rules in the Basic book.  My reading was that you roll 6d and
reduce it by one point for each 2 points of armor penetrated and then
apply the rest to the target.

There *is* a blow-through rule (optional, like most GURPS rules), that
limits the amount of damage to some max (don't have my books here, but
I think it's HT). 

Let's say Joe Generio (10) had armor with 10 DR (that's pretty good
personal armor, I think) and your 6d roll was 21 with no modifications
for where it hits. After penetrating the armor (2 for 1) you'd have 11
points left. If I'm remembering the blow-through right, and I'm
probably not, then 10 of the 11 points would be inside of Joe and 1
would exit hitting the armor on his other side.

Or something like that, 


Eris

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #330
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 331



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
Ships Locker
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..
Re: Clif
Combine MT with G:T combat
Re: Clif
Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
Re: Rob
My apologies
Re: why cant you children grow up?
Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?
Re: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
Re: Clif
Re: Knoellighz Sector
RE: Female TMLers
Re: At your request
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?
Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate
Re: max accel
Re: At your request
Re: At your request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:56:23 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"


>Couldn't help it, that impulse control problem again....


    Let us hope you never get it under control...

>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm


    LOL.  Love it.

>Jesse


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:03:44 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Ships Locker

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:12:12 EST
> From: AveNelso@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
>
>         An ACR in a scout ship's locker sounds perfectly appropriate.   It is a
> military weapon but it is not all that much more damaging than a hunting
> rifle, only with a higher ROF.   I believe all sorts of paramilitary groups in
> modern world (equivalent to scouts) would have such as M-16 (ACR-7) weapons availible
> as back-up  (US Coast Guard, Treasury Agents, Border Patrol etc).
> Now if you included a Plasma Gun or mortar, maybe he'd have something to gripe about.

Sorry I didn't reply to this thread sooner.  I just noticed it.

I've got a sample ships locker posted on my site.  You might also want to check out the
Survival weapons listed on my weapons page.

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Logbook/Locker.html

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Weapons/weapons.html

Look at the 5mm Civilian and the 15cm Survival Laser.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:12:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

At 01:42 PM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi There!
>
>This Green Beret argument does bring up a traveller question for me.
>Are there any canon sources for Imperial Black Ops.  How about in home
>brewed campaigns.  I'm formulating a campaign employing Imperial Special
>Forces and just wanted to see how others handled it.

Really Black Ops would probabvly be carried out by the IISS.  Scouts are
everywhere, and tend to be the personality types that can handle things
like introducing tailored virii to destroy a zhodani world's grain crop.

Military types tend to stand out, which hurts their usefulness in these
kinds of missions.

IMTU, the Scouts are the main intellegence branch of the Imperium, sort of
like the CIA.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:34:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..

From the sick, sick mind of my wife:

"Ditzie, meet Bruno.  Bruno, Ditzie Spofulam.

"Have fun!"
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:44:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Clif

> Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com> wrote:
> 
> >He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
> >Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.
> 
> Due to timing of the Digest some of my posts may follow this announcement.
> Apologies.
> 
> Dom
> 
> PS What happens if he re-subs?

I suppose I will have to unsub him.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:55:53 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Combine MT with G:T combat

Shawn wrote:
>It could take 4 shots with the guass pistol in MT to kill and just 1 in
Gurps.
>How damaging should a guass pistol be?

Surprise! When you shoot a person with a high speed metallic projectile at
close range they die.

Terry Carlino

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

I.T.C.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:01:51 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Clif

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Clif


>> >He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
>> >Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.
>> Due to timing of the Digest some of my posts may follow this
announcement.
>> Apologies.
>> Dom
>> PS What happens if he re-subs?
>I suppose I will have to unsub him.


    Can't you ban him from the List?  I run a ML at OneList & there I can
ban people if I have to, is it not the same on MPGN?

>Rob


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:53:42 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

In a message dated 3/22/99 3:07:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, kurt@blazenet.net
writes:

<< Since he did not have battledress, there was only one weapon he qualified
 for...FGMP-15.  Granted, the scenario was a trip into the jaws of hell, and
 the firepower helped, I still can not come to terms that the Imperial
 Marines would allow someone to claim a fusion gun as a benefit of service
 unless the handwave was that he was doing 'odd jobs' for the Marines and
 they knew where he might end up.
  >>

I give characters like that a shotgun or carbine as a default weapon, though
theoretically you could get a FGMP15. Of course it's NEVER going to leave the
ship (except for the ocasional law level 0 world...). If the PC doesn't have a
ship, he/she is going to have to lug the thing around empty in a locked
container, and lock it in storage a lot at starports...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:11:07 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Rob

: Rob Prior is a decent guy,

Poor Rob came in at a bad moment, too.  He missed the earlier picture of
the twenty-ish Ditzie and couldn't reconcile the talk with the pix.
Sorry, dude.


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:00:50 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: My apologies

I apologize for breaking my vow of silence re: Clif and posting that nasty
message to the list.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:07:56 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: why cant you children grow up?

you have a point, but Rob Prior ditched, and I would rather have Rob back, so
I think everybody's attitude towards Cliff is justified...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:13:40 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?

: 4.  Some of my T4 designs are conversions of my HG2 designs.  Would
: there be much interest in my posting the HG version as well?

One vote for HG version.  Simple is good.


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com 
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:21:50 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al

>>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

>>Subject: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al
...
>>Find a way to accelerate fighters to at least 10x the average speed of a
>>fleet (in World War II terms, 200 knots versus 20 knots), and
>>Traveller's combat assumptions will change as radically as they did
>>during World War II.

>You could probably build a missile with some useful space combat duration
>at 40-80 G's, but I don't see how that would change a small crafts striking
>power or ability to dodge laser fire at close ranges.

Higher speed missiles would increase the range at which missiles could be
fired at capital ships.  Since most of the damage from missiles in Traveller
(G:T at any rate) is from kinetic damage the faster the missile goes the
more damage.

More effective yet would be the development of a weapon that could be
carried by a fighter and have enough power to defeat battleship armor.  WW
II aircraft were a danger to shipping because dumb bombs big enough to sink
a ship could be used against targets that were basically incapable of
shooting down the delivering aircraft.  That and the cost factor. The cost
of an airplane squadron (including support) was much less than the cost of a
ship. Note that the cost factor breaks down in modern times; when not only
is the aircraft that delivers the smart bomb more expensive than the target.
The cost of the smart bomb is more than the cost of the target.

Traveller fighters are much cheaper than capital ships, but they have no
weapon that can really wax an armored battlerider or cruiser.

Terry Carlino

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

I.T.C.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:26:08 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

:
: Looks like Ditze just vaped her crash test dummy...
:
: BTW, nice shoes on the victim...
:

Where do I get some of them Air Clifs?  They'd look great with my
smoking jacket!



       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:35:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Clif

> >> >He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
> >> >Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.
> >> Due to timing of the Digest some of my posts may follow this
> announcement.
> >> Apologies.
> >> Dom
> >> PS What happens if he re-subs?
> >I suppose I will have to unsub him.
> 
> 
>     Can't you ban him from the List?  I run a ML at OneList & there I can
> ban people if I have to, is it not the same on MPGN?
> 
> >Rob
> 

He is in the "taboo-headers" portion of the majordomo config file, but I've
been testing it and it doesn't seem to really work.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:18:42 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Knoellighz Sector

I just now noticed something.  The Knoellighz sector (and Ghoekhnael
sector) is listed with two different locations.  According to GDW's AM3:
Vargr, they are located 2 (and 3) sectors coreward of the Spinward Marches.
 According to  AM4: Zhodani, they are located 2 (and 3) sectors coreward of
Deneb.

The only reason I mention this is that in AM3: Vargr, the sectors
Tlabrieish and Anzsidiadl do not exist (AM4 places them at 2 & 3 sectors
above the Spinward Marches).  The listing that you mention uses the AM3
layout.  Now this is fine, but there are now two sources to contradict it.
GT Alien Races 1 places the Drakaran worlds encompassing parts of
Anzsidiadl and Ghoekhnael (Zheranzanzji to the Zhodani) sectors.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 21:04:06 +0100
From: Nikki Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Female TMLers

Hello all:

I am one of those rare female TMLers and I was going to keep my peace, 
but I am compelled to point out that this is a prime example of why I sit 
back and lurk.

>At 11:02 PM 3/21/99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>>Go see a therapist if you're that disturbed by whatever is going on in your
>>life.  A cat-call (I didn't see anything worse) at a cartoon that someone
>>said was of her at age 16 (looks like mid-20's, to me) is hardly cause for
>>you to stifle our fun and entertainment.

>Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:23:52 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Apologies my Ass!

>>I'm sticking with the little Ditzie as she's alot like my kid sister Erin
>>(who's now not such a kid anymore) and there's alot more potential for just
>>good ol' comic relief instead of fueling the (mentally) adolescent
>fatansies
>>of a few members of the TML.
>
>Including your own, Jesse.  YOU drew the pic!  : )  It's really STUPID to be
>putting down "mentally adolescent fantasies" on a mailing list about a
>Role-playing game.
>
>Face it!  Gamers are geeks!  You're a geek!  I'm a geek!  (I know, Dough,
>you're not a geek.  You're a big he-man, bad-ass, etc., etc., who still
>can't find it in himself to crack on himself now and then.)  What the hell
>are we really doing wasting are time on this game, anyway?  If we can't
>fantasize and escape and have a little fun, what the hell good is the game
>in the first place?
>- --Clif

I did take a few breaths before making my response, because I could not 
by any stretch of common netiquette type out what my initial exclamation 
regarding these posts was.  Instead I find I must add only a heart felt 
"agreed!" to Suz's response:

>Gee, I see nothings changed while I've been off the list.  The nice people
>are still nice and the rude people are still rude.
>
>Suz

Nikki Wieleba
scarab1@pacbell.net
Classic Traveller player and GM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:36:32 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: At your request

Jesse,

As I noted to the list, I was offline for a while. I didn't get your Ditzie
page address. Could you forward it to me?  I'd like to see the little kid
one.  I'm rather glad I missed the rest of the thread.

Thanks,

Suz

>If you scroll to the very bottom of the Ditzie page, there's a plain ol'
>text link to the older version.  You're not the first one to request this,
>so by popular demand it's back up for those of you miss it.
>
>Best,
>Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:30:37 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

> Hmm...Vargr...Standard figure, set the head not-visible, add a dog from the
> library, make everything but the head not-visible.  That part's easy.

Please don't use a dog.  The Ancients took wolves from Terra some
300,000 years ago, a very long time before humans developed the many
modern breeds of domestic dog.  ("Varg" means "wolf" in Swedish, by the
way.)

Gravball players need some kind of armor, too, as I recall.  I'll see if
I can find my copy of the game (I wonder which box it's in?) and look at
the 15mm Martian Metals figures that came with it.  

On text (further to my email), "branch" is too high an organizational
level.  I'd go with something like "1144th Exploration Squadron, Regina
Subsector".

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:02:19 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?

In a message dated 3/22/99 8:25:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
swordworlder@clinic.net writes:

<< 4.  Some of my T4 designs are conversions of my HG2 designs.  Would
 : there be much interest in my posting the HG version as well?
 
 One vote for HG version.  Simple is good. >>

Ditto!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:19:39 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

I-SPAN Brought to you as a public service by your Holovid Providers

<2nd Imeprium Classical Music>

PAO IRIS CORE CAPITAL Press Conference  11:30 Capital Time <on vid>

Communications Director, Directorate Public Affairs Office Jahon Lowvitz
<under Director>

Citizens of the Imperium:

My fellow Sophonts of the Third Imperium, the Imperial Regency of
Security and Intelligence would like to clear the air regarding the
involvement of the Emperor and His Government in alleged covert
operations, euphemistically called "Black Ops" by those romantically
minded members of the press corps. The reality of our situation is much
blander than the typical Starport newstand spy-thriller. There is no
"Capable Group", nor is there a Iamaes Bindii 2XX. Although there are
many excellent female sophonts serving IRIS and the Imperium, there is
no Ditzee Spofulam, Agent of Chaos, serving in the field for our
agency,. much to our complete regret! <laughter and hoots from male
press corps members>

Firstly, let me state that IRIS has never conducted covert operations
against citizens of the Third Imperium and its member states. Our
charter <DOC I> expressly forbids such actions and the 'constitution' of
the Imperium has through tradition and precedence of law eliminated such
actions from the perview of all members of the Imperial Intelligence
Community, except in times of war. Such actions are only taken on the
advise and consent of the Moot. We all know we are not in a state of war
with any of our neighbors. I'm sure Holo Headline News and our friends
at HNN would like a change in that state. <laughter> Who can forget
their epic reporting under fire from behind the Frontier! We should
commend Piotr Harnett for his brave coverage! <applause, embarrased
reporter stands up and meekly bows >

Secondly, as per our charter (DOC I) IRIS can only conduct covert
operations within territories of enemies of the Imperium. These actions
may only be taken with the express approval and oversight of the Emperor
himself. However, IRIS uses this Imperial Charter provision strictly in
manifesting review of activities of members of the Imperial Intelligence
Community. IRIS at this time is categorically, not engaging in such
activity in any foreign power, as that would violate treaty obligations
established with our Coreward and Spinward neighbors. <quiet calls of
'Zhos' from the press gallery>

Thirdly, our charter is of primary of purpose the protection of the
Imperial Body and Family. Our agency as budgeted by the Exchequer in the
1095-1115 Authorization is mandated to provide this security for the
safety and continuity of the Imperium at exclusion of other missions
previously associated with IRIS. We at IRIS are 'brown-baggers',  there
are no  Jump-3 lunches on our watch. <laughter> IRIS is the
clearinghouse for information and intelligence to the Emperor from our
more munificent friends in the Imperial Intelligence Community. At IRIS
we employ librarians and information scientists. Our typical employee is
not espionage material. We'd make terrible characters on the Holovid and
I'm sure had we been a series, IRIS would have been cancelled after the
Pilot. <snickering> And I've never fired a PGMP-14, though there are
some days...<pointing to various reporters in audience, much laughter>

In conclusion, my fellow sophonts,  rumours to the contrary, the
Imperial Regency  Of Intelligence and Security does not engage in "Black
Ops". Despite protestations of their legal counsel, IRIS categorically
refutes all charges made by Ctivey Iacqusen Simulations of Regina. These
baseless attempts to link recent criminal activities conducted against
their offices and livelihood with our agents are founded on paranoic
disinformation. This climate of paranioa and governmental distrust that
has pervaded the Spinward Marches. Experts at the Directorate of IRIS
and the Central Command of Imperial Naval Intelligence have determined
this to be a product of our Coreward interstellar neighbors. We deplore
the climate of fear and misapprehension resulting from these completely
unethical and undiplomatic activities. Citizens we must be vigilant! As
per our agency's motto "Custodiamus veritas":  We Guard the Truth, and
so should each and every one of you in the press and especially our
patriotic citizens at home.  <applause>

Thank You and Long Live the Emperor Strephon! <cheers>

I'm sorry but due to a chronographical error we will not be able to take
questions at this time.
<muted dissapointment and grumbling, PAO and staff quickly exit>

<flashing on vid>:
Please refer your questions and inquiries to:
1987-234A-TT376
Liberenti Barrria
Public Affairs Officer
Directorate Public Affairs Office
Imperial Regency of Intelligence and  Security
Djerinniskia Square
Eastern Region
Capital

This program will be repeated at 2330 Capital Standard Time

<Illeshian Pipe Music circa 990 >

Next on I-SPAN: Live Holocast at 1230-1830 CST: MOOT QUESTION TIME at
MOOT SPIRE

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 23:18:30 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

I haven't seen an answer to this one so I'll do it...

On 03/22/99 at 01:35 AM,  "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com> said:

>Ok, I'm in a quandary.  Looking at the COACC rules, it seems that
>using the good ole' Fusion Rocket, I can easily design small craft
>with (maintainable) accelerations of over (way, way over...) 6G.

Ok, so far.
 
>What's up?  I assume that maybe inertial compensators are limited to
>6G, thus preventing manned craft from exceeding the 6G barrier, but
>what's to stop building a ship-killer missile?  

Point defense lasers mainly, but IMTU it's just because
*I*don't*want*ship-killer*missiles. ;->

>Even accounting for relatavistic effects, I find it relatively easy
>to obtain .1C+ velocities in a reasonable time.  

Ummmm, well maybe, but that would be one honking missile if you're
using a reaction drives.

>For example, before relativity rears it's ugly head, a 100G missile
>accelerating for only one 20-minute HG turn will reach a whopping
>(V=1/2AT^2) (7.056*10^8m/s=[.5][9.8m/s/s][100][1200sec][1200sec])
>705,600km/sec, or roughly 2.5C. 

Whoa!  I think your formula is incorrect, doesn't V = AT?  I think
you are confusing it with the formula for distance travelled.

If you accelerate at 10m/s for 10 seconds you are travelling at
100m/s...right?

So, using your example of a 100g/turn acceleration we'd have...

 V = 980 * 1200 = 1,176,000m/s = 1,176km/s = 0.0039c

...that's nice and fast, but approaching c...not quite!  To get up
*near* c you'd have to accelerate at 100g for somewhat longer...like
almost 4 days.

Of course, I could be wrong here, but I'm sure one of our more
gearheaded science folks will let us know.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:20:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: At your request

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Suz Dollar wrote:

> As I noted to the list, I was offline for a while. I didn't get your Ditzie
> page address. Could you forward it to me?  I'd like to see the little kid
> one.  I'm rather glad I missed the rest of the thread.

Indeed. The URL is:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm

I find she reminds me of the daughter of a married couple I play Traveller
with. I have seen several other folks say she reminds them of their own
daughters or those of gaming friends.  Kinda scary, really...  ;)

My own daughters (8 y.o.) are the anti-Ditzies.

By the way, thanks for pointing me at this mailing list way back when...
I think.  ;)

Take care,
Brannon

PS: Don't miss the wonderful art on his main page!  The new scout
renditions are wonderful!!!
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/welcome_to_the_patinir_belt.htm

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:23:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: At your request

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Suz Dollar wrote:

> As I noted to the list, I was offline for a while. I didn't get your Ditzie
> page address. Could you forward it to me?

Taken care of.  -Brannon

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #331
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 332



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Re: Apologies!
Re: Clif
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
Re: My apologies
Re: Clif
Re: At your request
Re: why cant you children grow up?
Re: max accel
T4 Question
Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: T4 Question
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED : Traveller-digest V1999 #318
Imperial Black Ops
Imperial interdiction policies
digest and other delays in replying to threads
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
Colonization Rights
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:42:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:

> > From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
> 
> > Hmm...Vargr...Standard figure, set the head not-visible, add a dog from the
> > library, make everything but the head not-visible.  That part's easy.
> 
> Please don't use a dog.  The Ancients took wolves from Terra some
> 300,000 years ago, a very long time before humans developed the many
> modern breeds of domestic dog.  ("Varg" means "wolf" in Swedish, by the
> way.)

Ooooooh-kay...  I guess that means the basset hound model is
right out, huh?  :^) :^) :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:48:03 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

Hi Todd, and All:

"Todd A. Zircher" wrote:

> Sticking in an animation loop where it rotates on the axis may be
> a good look.  

I'm not sure I follow you...

> ... transparent objects ... implementation varies from browser to 
> browser. ... At work, the browser defaults to 'screen door' 
> tranparency and the look isn't as good.

That's a problem I'm aware of; but, I'd like to keep the hazy look of 
the holodisplay.
 
> Perhaps replacing the sphere with a neon green 3d cross hair (at
> the center of the sphere) would aid in the illusion.  ....  
> Alternately, a transparent GIF can be used to great effect as a 
> circular grid on the 'horizon'.

That's a really good idea and I'll think about it.  I might add it.
Does anyone know of a source for a transparent GIF of a compass 
outline?

> > of a space battle to display on the bridge's viewscreen.  If
...
> One possiblity is to chorigraph the fight off the bow of the ship
> and add a LOD group to easy the CPU burden when not at the bridge.

Another really good idea.
Thanks for the great ideas.  It will be a few weeks before I can get
back to my VRMLing so if anyone has any pointers to useful GIFs I'd
like to see them, but the need isn't urgent.

Kristian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 00:04:02 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

On 03/22/99 at 08:37 PM,  Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net> said:

>Let's say Joe Generio (10) had armor with 10 DR (that's pretty good
>personal armor, I think) and your 6d roll was 21 with no
>modifications for where it hits. After penetrating the armor (2 for
>1) you'd have 11 points left. If I'm remembering the blow-through
>right, and I'm probably not, then 10 of the 11 points would be inside
>of Joe and 1 would exit hitting the armor on his other side.

OOPS! ;->  Let me redo that.

It takes *5* to get through the 10 armor because the dart has a (2)
armor piercing multiplier.  This leaves 16 points of which the next
10 do damage to Joe and the last 6 hit the armor on the other side.
This should blow through the back armor as well.  Frankly, I wonder
if the dart shouldn't ricochet back into Joe doing more damage...

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:08:44 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Apologies!

Again Cliff, you seemed to miss the word FANTASY.  A 2-d cartoon no, but as it
would be a fantasy...never mind, it's obviously beyond you.  You call me
uneducated and stupid which means you are longer able to have an adult debate
but would rather lower it to personal attacks and name calling.  As I got past
that after the 6th grade or so, I wont join in thank you.  

Several people have given you the directions for unsubscribing, as you
requested, perhaps doing just that is best.  Buh-Bye.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:10:09 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Clif

works for me.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:19:19 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

Jesse you sick little monkey!!

All we can do now is hope that Cliff doesn't return in "hologram" form ;-)

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:05:06 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: My apologies

From: Allen Shock <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: My apologies


>I apologize for breaking my vow of silence re: Clif and posting that nasty
>message to the list.


    Don't worry about it.  You were being human.

>Allen


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:09:04 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Clif

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Clif


>>     Can't you ban him from the List?  I run a ML at OneList & there I can
>> ban people if I have to, is it not the same on MPGN?
>He is in the "taboo-headers" portion of the majordomo config file, but I've
>been testing it and it doesn't seem to really work.


    You know, Rob, you can move the TML to OneList.  Just go to
http://www.onelist.com/ & follow the steps.  Its quick & easy.  And, you
could move the list in about 10 minutes.

>Rob


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 00:20:50 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: At your request

On 03/22/99 at 07:36 PM,  Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net> said:

>As I noted to the list, I was offline for a while. I didn't get your
>Ditzie page address. Could you forward it to me?  I'd like to see the
>little kid one.  I'm rather glad I missed the rest of the thread.

Suz, maybe I need to look at it again.  I just don't see what all
the fuss was about.  I mean, there wasn't anything obscene or
purient about the drawing.  It was just a good drawing of a late
teen, early twenties, fully-clothed, female human who happened to be
holding a *really big* gun.  Ok, so I can see the freudian
implications of the really big gun, but...?  All the hu-ha it
caused!  ;->

BTW, Nikki, if Suz and you...and others, would post more often, I
think, there would be less of the sort of thing to which you
objected.  I'm sure the majority here would welcome your ideas.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:30:04 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: why cant you children grow up?

Richard, in fareness many people, myself included, were responding to posts by
cliff, AND THEN found out he had unsubscribed.  If I'd known he had done so I
wouldn't have wasted the time, believe me.  I doubt in most cases that the
posts continued due to "moral superiority" as you put it but due to that fact.

Do understand, I sure know what the delete button is for, BUT in **most**
cases people take silence for acceptance.  If no one speaks out, the person
decides, ah ha I can go just a bit further, or even think that everyone is
agreeing with them.  call it childish all day Richard but if I feel someone
went off on somebody like that, I will let them know.

I have no problem with you disagreeing, none at all, infinate power through
infinate diversity, as they say.

By the way, it's "does" not "dose"

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:03:08 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: max accel


>>What's up?  I assume that maybe inertial compensators are limited to
>>6G, thus preventing manned craft from exceeding the 6G barrier, but
>>what's to stop building a ship-killer missile?
>
>Point defense lasers mainly, but IMTU it's just because
>*I*don't*want*ship-killer*missiles. ;->

Actually, what will a PDL accomplish?  While  (see below) my missile won't
be moving at an appreciable fraction of "C", at the velocities I have in
mind, my missile uses no terminal guidance or warhead...the only way to take
kinetic energy from my "warhead" is to vaporize it, and far enough from your
hull that a high-velocity plasma jet doesn't reach you.  Basically, only a
catostrophic hard kill does the trick.  Also, no sneaky nuclear dampners.
>
>
>Of course, I could be wrong here, but I'm sure one of our more
>gearheaded science folks will let us know.
>

No, you're right.  Still, a good velocity, say 1000km/sec, obtainable by a
missile with a "mere" 30G in only one hour, would be:

a. Very, very hard to find- until within a second or two, the object's tiny
size means that it's apparent diameter is smaller than the resolution of any
ship-based sensor. It is also not emitting much, if anything.

b.  Hard to target.  It will be within range for a very, very short time
compared to conventional missiles and small craft.

c.  Enourmously deadly *IF* it hits.  I will leave the calculations of
energy imparted to those less astrophysically-challenged (I won't pretend to
remember the formula, this time).  The simple missile I built weighed in at
5.8 tons.  OTOH, terminal guidance was simple HARM, otherwise guidance was
command-control from firing ship. Great against slow abttlewagons, not so
great vs. fighters.



Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:16:58 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: T4 Question

What was Book F ? 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:20:30 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

Dear Folks -

So can you tell me, IYTU does "IRIS" exists or not?

I ask because:

1.   The original article is specifically labelled as a "variant".

2.   _Survival Margin_ discredits the organisation (Strephon's comment
about "Maybe someone should explain the Moot to them").

3.   IMTU, "IRIS" (if I ever get that far) will actually be a section of
the IMOJ that breaks away from Lucan's control during the Rebellion. They
set themselves up in the Vegan Autonomous District, and proceed to make
their claims about validating Imperial heirs. For me, this gells with their
"history" as stated in the original article.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:30:00 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

Mark Cook wrote:

> Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:
>
> > Please don't use a dog.  The Ancients took wolves from Terra some
> > 300,000 years ago, a very long time before humans developed the many
> > modern breeds of domestic dog.  ("Varg" means "wolf" in Swedish, by the
> > way.)
>
> Ooooooh-kay...  I guess that means the basset hound model is
> right out, huh?  :^) :^) :^)

Naw that is what I was going to use.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:14:08 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Question

: What was Book F ?

Not published



       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com 
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:29:22 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED : Traveller-digest V1999 #318

>From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
...
>As for native rights, their lack of it boils down to the fact that legally
>Australia was regarded as Terra Anullius, (I think it means unclaimed land.)
>Essentially as Aborigines didn't claim it (hell, they couldn't understand
>the concept of boundaries and were nomadic to boot) then they lost it. 

  The biggest difference was likely that in BNA there was a history of dealing
with the natives in a defined legal relationship (in no small part due to the
fact that they were strong enough to make conducting business unprofitable and
/or really helpful in squashing frogs or limeys, depending on what scenario
was being played at the time) - so the East was mostly the site of normalized
(if not thoroughly fair) relations, and although there was no pressing need to
be very nice to anyone out West the habit was sort of ingrained - even the NW
Rebellion and various incidents in BC were resolved with fairly low body counts.

  ObTrav: the obvious wrt newly discovered worlds. Also, it begs the question
of why the 3I treated the Solomani the way they did circa 700-900 - was the
Imperium being nice and acceding to legitimate demands, or were they being 
weak? Of course, the Party view wouldn't even start with conceding decent
treatment, but how that gets related to being given extensive autonomy which
gets used to carve out an empire and oppress others is beyond me.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:00:06 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Imperial Black Ops

> From: William Louis Cusick <maldeus@olg.com>
 
> This Green Beret argument does bring up a traveller question for me.
> Are there any canon sources for Imperial Black Ops.  How about in home
> brewed campaigns.  I'm formulating a campaign employing Imperial Special
> Forces and just wanted to see how others handled it.

Black Ops vs. Special Forces:  In my Traveller universe, these terms
implicate different issues.  I'll only talk about the Imperium here, but
certainly the other major and minor powers have special forces and
engage in black ops, too.  

Special forces are elite units capable of carrying out unusual missions
beyond normal supply.  Each uniformed service has special forces.  

Black operations are unconventional warfare operations which may or may
not be carried out by special forces, and which may or may not be
carried out during wartime.  These include espionage, recruitment and
subornation, various psychological and quasi-commando operations to
destabilize another power, and the like.  

The Imperial Army's special forces are used in much the same way as the
contemporary Green Berets -- to support and train Imperial allies who
need help, and sometimes to to perform commando operations (jump drops,
seizure of critical installations, etc.).  

The Imperial Marines are almost a special force unto themselves.  Marine
special forces perform commando operations, as well as some "black
operations" like kidnapping and assassination (especially military and
civilian leaders of powers with whom the Imperium is at war), capturing
(as opposed to just destroying) technology and information, and
escorting spy insertions and extractions.

The Imperial Navy's special forces consist of ships with special forces
missions, like long range jump troop transports, ships committed to the
communication / surveillance / jamming role, small intruders for
insertions and extractions, etc.

The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service has special forces consisting of
ship organizations and personnel organizations.  The ships perform
missions to similar to those of the Navy.  The personnel engage in some
support and training of Imperial allies, and perform black ops similar
to the Marines; they tend not to be used for commando operations. (There
is a considerable rivalry among the various special forces, as one might
expect.)

I don't know if canonical sources addressing special forces and black
operations exist. I think Book 4: Mercenary and Book 6: Scouts address
some of these issues.  

For some thoughts about Zhodani special forces, see Paranoia Press'
excellent book SORAG, which is long out of print.

- --Glenn

P.S.

> From: AveNelso@aol.com

>         The Imperium would never need such a thing as "Black Ops".  Honrable people
> act above board.   I am insulted at such a suggestion.
> 
>                         The Old Marquis

His Grace makes an important point.  Certainly the Imperium has stated
that its policy is that it spies on friends and foes alike, and believes
that its spies will not be found.  The Imperium is also quite above
board in letting friends and foes know that it will hunt down and turn
the spies of its friends and foes alike -- or imprison or kill them if
they can't be turned.  When it announces the capture of a spy, the
Imperium will never state that it is shocked by the behavior -- after
all, powers must spy on one another.  Treason is the offense that shocks
the conscience of an Imperial citizen.

In wartime, the Imperium makes no secret of its intention to and its
belief in its ability to destroy its enemies totally by any and all
means necessary -- including political destabilization, disruption of
military and civil communications, ruses de guerre, etc. The Imperium
does not lie to its enemies.  It truthfully states, we shall lie to you
until you yield, and you won't know when we're telling the truth and
when we're lying.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:28:02 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Imperial interdiction policies

> From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>

> ObTrav: Would the Imperium red-zone a minor human world that was, say, TTL
> 6-8 if it's inhabitants were highly xenophobic and aggressive? Or would
> they just roll in like the biggest steamroller this side of <insert
> favorite wrathful deity here> and flatten said xenophobic, aggressive minor
> humans into abject submission?

Well, it depends, I guess.  If the Imperium decided that the world would
be of greater benefit to the Imperium if it were interdicted for a
while, then it would interdict.  If it was in the Imperium's interest to
get the world into the Imperium right away -- maybe because of strategic
location or resources -- then it would probably just move in.  

Even in the latter case, I don't think that the Imperium would
necessarily invade in a big military way.  It would more likely just
"settle" some "interstellar trade personnel" on the planet, and maybe
some "colonists" later.  It would be sure to get "concessions" from "the
recognized, legitimate, government", allowing construction of a
starport, and the settlements noted.

Then when the local xenophobes "threatened the security" of the
"interstellar trade personnel and colonists", the Imperials on the
ground would ask the Imperial Marines to intervene to "protect Imperial
citizens and property."  This would likely involve some demonstrations
of force that would encourage "the recognized, legitimate, government"
to grant more concessions.

Meanwhile, of course, the real game is being played on the holovid and
in the streets.  The "interstellar trade personnel" are broadcasting
advertising of products just a step or two above the local tech level,
along with dramatic and documentary programming whose basic message is,
"gee, it's cool to be an Imperial citizen!"  The "colonists" are highly
visible, and living visibly great lives.  Eventually the local kids at
least will start demanding advertised toys, clothes, etc., and that
culture will largely disappear, only to be remembered by anthropologists
and historians.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:45:41 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: digest and other delays in replying to threads

>I find it completely reprehensible that the personal attacks on him are
>continuing *after* he has withdrawn from the list.


Unfortunately, the _majority_ of this is caused, IMO, by the fact that some
people are subscribed via digest mode, and others are not able to keep a
constant eye on the list and keep up to date, like I try and primarily
suceed in doing.

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:54:24 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

Not without some heavy modifying and re-texturing.  Unfortunately, at this
point, I'm no good with "organic" modeling (i.e. sophonts).

Jesse


>> Please don't use a dog.  The Ancients took wolves from Terra some
>> 300,000 years ago, a very long time before humans developed the many
>> modern breeds of domestic dog.  ("Varg" means "wolf" in Swedish, by the
>> way.)
>
>Ooooooh-kay...  I guess that means the basset hound model is
>right out, huh?  :^) :^) :^)
>
>        - Mark C.
>          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>          Front Sight First Family member #1
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
> 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
>    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
>    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
>    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
>    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836)
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:57:12 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

"You never learnnn, do you?" painting an "H" on forehead with curry....

You have to have seen the British comedy "Red Dwarf" to have gotten that one
;)

Jesse



>Jesse you sick little monkey!!
>
>All we can do now is hope that Cliff doesn't return in "hologram" form ;-)
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:10:53 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Colonization Rights

> ObTrav:  This would be a good way of establishing colonization rights:  you
> gain legal ownership if you actually live on the planet and develope it for a
> period of time.
>      Dave Nelson

	This reminds me of the main reason I do not find the official 
universe all that useful for my IMTU. The above can be easily argued 
in favor, in the Third Imperium, for worlds within its boundaries. 
Probably there is an "Imperial Rules of Colonization" document...

	..but the main area of play in MTU is far away from the Imperium, 
and the largest polity encompasses the fantastic quantity of 32 
worlds... so, almost any colonization effort would be outside its 
boundaries.

	So, this polity (the Federation) might have a policy regarding 
colonization of worlds, but, will this policy be accepted by their 
neighbours?

	For that matter, this is an important question in M:0. Say the 
Imperium recognizes the rights of a group of colonists over a world, 
but the nearest pocket empire suddenly decides that it is interested 
in that world... in fact, <ehem>, the historical documents of this 
empire *prove* <ehem> that he world has been claimend for over a 
century...

	For that matter, a world is a very big place. What happens if two 
different groups settle on different continents and claim 
colonization rights?
	Within the Imperium, probably not much. The world is now balkanized, 
hop.
	Outside the Imperium, what happens if each of the groups gets 
colonization rights from different interstellar states? Will a war 
erupt? Yes, of course, it depends, but let's assume it is that M:0 
situation. Will the early 3I go to war with a Pocket Empire to 
guarantee that *its* colonists get the whole world? Will they send 
the marines? Or will they negotiate? Makes for some interesting world 
hooks...

	Now that I stop to think about it, what about *half* a world 
belonging to the 3I, the other half to a pocket empire? The result of 
a failed negotiation attempt...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:11:17 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

>>All we can do now is hope that Cliff doesn't return in "hologram" form ;-)
>>TAS

    Well, he was a Smeg-head.  *weg*

>"You never learnnn, do you?" painting an "H" on forehead with curry....


    You like someone who would have a head shaped like a novelty ice cube,
not an "H".

>You have to have seen the British comedy "Red Dwarf" to have gotten that
one
>;)


    Yes, you would have.

>Jesse


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #332
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 333



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Homestead Act
Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Re: max accel
Re: Max Accel
Re: At you request
Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?
Laserconstruction tool
Re: Homestead Act
Apology
Near (dice) misses
Re: Gonzu Minor Race?
Re: At your request
Re: Apology
Re: Apology
Re: At your request
Garbage (was Re: Rob)
re: Max Acceleration
Re: Near (dice) misses
RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
Stepping outside the jump-field (be right back...)
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
RE: Mustering Out Bennies
re: Stepping outside the jump field...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:18:01 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Homestead Act

AveNelso@aol.com wrote

> From 1860's to 1970's public land in the US 
> could be gotten for free by private citizens, who staked a claim
> and actually lived on the land for at least 5 years and built a 
> "cabin" or house.   

Are you sure that the Homestead act required occupancy?  My parents
picked up 10 or 12 acres of lakefront land for free (but had to pay 
surveyors costs) in the late 70's before the program ended.  Maybe they
qualified under a smiliar state (of Alaska) program.  They never had to
build anything on the property & have not set foot on it in 15 or 20
years.

ObTrav:  There is a lot of land out there.  Even thoough most planets
are smaller then Earth most of them have less than a million people on
them.  There should be lots of good unused land available.  On some
planets it may well be "free" on others it may cost between a few
credits and a thousand credits per hectare.

OTOH: This means that the Aslan Second Sons should be able to pick up
land for pocket change, which is not generally the case in canon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:52:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns

In mail you write:

>>Depending on whether the weapon is a "rail" gun or a "coil" gun, there
>>may or may not be extra bracing needed to resist the "recoil" of
>>accelerating the projectile. But this doesn't need as much mass as a
>>regular gun barrel.
>
> Why would there be a difference between a coil gun and a rail gun in terms
> of recoil stress on the launch tube? Electromangnetic forces act upon the
> bullet to accelerate it to V and thus imparts an equal but opposite
> direction momentum in both cases.
>
> Maybe the coilgun does most of the acceleration at a shorter time?

The coil gun has the projectile reacting to an EM field generated by
several sets of coils. So the forces are exerted on the coils, and
worse, upon only a couple of sets at any given moment. That means the
coils need some heavy bracing.

A rail gun has a magnet (or rather, a pair of magnets) and a pair of
conducting rails. The structure is inherently simpler, and only part of
the force is on the magnets.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:29:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

In mail you write:

>>Here's an interesting one that *should* work, but I won't swear to it...
>>
>> Ammonia
>> drain cleaner (non-lye-based)
>> sugar
>>
>>Your mission is to determine *how* I can cause trouble with the above. :-)

> Uh, Chlorine gas?  Kinda deadly.

No, that'd be drain cleaner and bleach. No need for the sugar. 

Most non-lye drain cleaners seem to be hydrochloric acid. Allow the
*vapors* from HCl and ammonia to mix, and they'll form a fine white
"smoke". This is fine particles of solid ammonium chloride. 

My "guess" is that ammonium chloride is a sufficiently good oxidizer to
make a good combo with sugar. (The normal version of this is done with
sodium or potassium nitrate and sugar).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:59:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> Ok, I'm in a quandary.  Looking at the COACC rules, it seems that using the
> good ole' Fusion Rocket, I can easily design small craft with (maintainable)
> accelerations of over (way, way over...) 6G.  What's up?  I assume that
> maybe inertial compensators are limited to 6G, thus preventing manned craft
> from exceeding the 6G barrier, but what's to stop building a ship-killer
> missile?  Even accounting for relatavistic effects, I find it relatively
> easy to obtain .1C+ velocities in a reasonable time.  For example, before
> relativity rears it's ugly head, a 100G missile accelerating for only one
> 20-minute HG turn will reach a whopping (V=1/2AT^2)
> (7.056*10^8m/s=[.5][9.8m/s/s][100][1200sec][1200sec]) 705,600km/sec, or
> roughly 2.5C.  Now, off the top of my head, I can't recall the formula for
> relativity, so could someone either come up with that or perhaps show me the
> error in my (rusty) astrophysics.  BTW, the "warhead" on this missile is a
> cast-iron harpoon.  Why bother with anything more"deadly"?

Your problem is simple. The formula is V=AT. You got it confused with
D=.5AT^2. 

A 100 g missile accelerating for 20 minutes reaches:
	V=9.8*100*20*60=1,176,000 m/s 
or about .4% of c.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:55:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Max Accel

In mail you write:

> OOps, a slight miscalculation, it must be past my bedtime... But anyway, a
> missile consisting of a fusion rocket, a (very) little fuel, and a (very)
> simple guidance package, and NO warhead, is easily capaple of 30G, and
> before relatavistic effects, would be easily capable of reaching near-light
> velocities in a very short time- in fact, about 25 minutes of constant
> accel.

You've got a *major* miscalculation in there somewhere. The speed of
light is approximately one "g-year". So it should take about 1/30th of a
year at 30 g to reach c (ignoring relativity). That's 20 *days*. 

Keep in mind that we have already *built* rockets that did over 100 g
for multiple seconds. I'm still tryying to get more exact figures, but
the Sprint interceptor was capable of hitting orbital altitude in a
few seconds, and darn near reaching escape velocity.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:22:50 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: At you request

I must say, as my only comment on the mess is that Eris has a good point
here; it's easier to remember to be better behaved when you're reminded
of everyone who _is_ here.

ob-trav: the diference between a mixed gender military unit and one that
is single gender (which is irrelivant) can be rather startling at
times...  :'0

William


>BTW, Nikki, if Suz and you...and others, would post more often, I
>think, there would be less of the sort of thing to which you
>objected.  I'm sure the majority here would welcome your ideas.
>
>
>Eris
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:20:16 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?

><< 4.  Some of my T4 designs are conversions of my HG2 designs.  Would
> : there be much interest in my posting the HG version as well?
>
> One vote for HG version.  Simple is good. >>
>
>Ditto!

I'd vote for HG, except I think QSDS does a decent job with only
a little extra effort.  Hey, at least I don't have to build the hulls
myself...

How 'bout updating HG components to QSDS format?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:03:46 +0100
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Laserconstruction tool

Hello friends,

Although I'm perhaps the 756271st to do so, I wrote an Construction tool
for starship lasers. It is based on FFS V1 with some
house-modifications, but perhaps some of you might be interested. Is is
done in Excel 97, using lots of VBA (which is IMHO the only usefull
thing in Office 97).

AS I do not have a homepage, I will sent it to everyone interested by
email (ca 100kb).

Returning you to wantever you are doing,

Bye
Holger 'aradin' Kadlez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:25:11 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Homestead Act

>OTOH: This means that the Aslan Second Sons should be able to pick up
>land for pocket change, which is not generally the case in canon.

Yes but as these landless sons are aslan males and are dealing with humans
they're probably swindled with extreme markups. This may actually be the
reason why the humans seem to hate the aslans so much; they don't dislike
the aslans so much as they dislike those getting filthy rich by selling
cheap land for a fortune.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 05:55:41 +0100
From: Nikki Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Apology

Hello:

I recently posted:
>I am one of those rare female TMLers and I was going to keep my peace, but I 
am compelled to 
>point out that this is a prime example of why I sit back and lurk.

I would like to apologize for my outburst.  I do not in any way wish to 
intimate that the list in general is of questionable metal.  My opinion 
of it and its contributors is quite the opposite.

I do enjoy the abundance of insight and information that is presented 
here and am truly looking forward to getting back to our regularly 
scheduled Rule of Man, Near-C Rock and Virus flame wars!

;-)  <*really*)

Keep up the inspired work, guys!

Nikki
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 05:55:46 +0100
From: Nikki Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Near (dice) misses

Hello all:

A while back someone (I apologize for forgetting who, but I don't have 
the hardcopy at hand at the moment) posted a guideline for levels of 
experience for pilots: what rolls were needed at what character skill 
levels and what actions did not need to be rolled for.

I was wondering if anyone had already created a list or might have ideas 
regarding the consequences of failing piloting rolls.  Is there something 
written in canon already or does anyone have a homebrew table.

F.I., what happens if the pilot is attempting to dock with a ship and 
misses his roll by one, by two, etc.?

Perhaps a general guideline for "level of disaster" versus amount of 
failure?

Any information or pointers in the correct direction would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Nikki
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:41:33 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Gonzu Minor Race?

I know that the Planet III software was maid avalable as freeware, but dose
anyone have a URL to it's location, or a copy I could have.

Thanks

Ewan

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know anything bout the "Gonzu" minor race at 2221 Old Expanses
> (subsector K, Old Expanses)?  It's referenced in the Planet III data and am
> curious on whether i'm going to be doing it myself for MTU, or if there's
> nething I can base it on.
> 
> Gary

- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:40:25 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: At your request

>
>BTW, Nikki, if Suz and you...and others, would post more often, I
>think, there would be less of the sort of thing to which you
>objected.  I'm sure the majority here would welcome your ideas.
>
>
>Eris




Here Here!!!

Jim Clem
Pak Protector:  Can make a nuke from a Van DeGraf generator and a pile of
dirty socks

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 05:53:37 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Apology

No Virus flame wars Pleez :)

I'm looking forward to more discussion of the Scout service, 
colonization, and GT material in general...

mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 05:53:36 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Apology

No Virus flame wars Pleez :)

I'm looking forward to more discussion of the Scout service, 
colonization, and GT material in general...

mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:55:05 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: At your request

>Suz, maybe I need to look at it again.  I just don't see what all
>the fuss was about.  I mean, there wasn't anything obscene or
>purient about the drawing.  It was just a good drawing of a late
>teen, early twenties, fully-clothed, female human who happened to be
>holding a *really big* gun.  Ok, so I can see the freudian
>implications of the really big gun, but...?  All the hu-ha it
>caused!  ;->

I didn't object to anything except the way Rob Prior was treated. I've been
married to long not to understand that boys will be boys, but when it
offends anyone, Rob included, then its time to stop. And you don't treat
people poorly just because they have the guts to stand up and say something.

>BTW, Nikki, if Suz and you...and others, would post more often, I
>think, there would be less of the sort of thing to which you
>objected.  I'm sure the majority here would welcome your ideas.

When we have something meaningful to add, we post. 

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:04:02 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Garbage (was Re: Rob)

Allen Shock wrote:

> ObTrav: some garbage has to get ejected out the airlock for the good of the
> ship....

How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people think
this might have.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:20:18 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Max Acceleration

Damien Fox wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
No, you're right.  Still, a good velocity, say 1000km/sec, obtainable by a
missile with a "mere" 30G in only one hour, would be:

a. Very, very hard to find- until within a second or two, the object's tiny
size means that it's apparent diameter is smaller than the resolution of any
ship-based sensor. It is also not emitting much, if anything.

b.  Hard to target.  It will be within range for a very, very short time
compared to conventional missiles and small craft.

c.  Enourmously deadly *IF* it hits.  I will leave the calculations of
energy imparted to those less astrophysically-challenged (I won't pretend to
remember the formula, this time).  The simple missile I built weighed in at
5.8 tons.  OTOH, terminal guidance was simple HARM, otherwise guidance was
command-control from firing ship. Great against slow abttlewagons, not so
great vs. fighters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm wondering what the ramifications of such a weapon would be in terms
of fleet design philosophies.

Take HG, add a weapon that will kill a very large or low-agility target almost
every time. The only defenses against it are high agility, or the ability to
keep the firing unit from getting into range. Add that this weapon can be
fired from a very small ship. 

We have the WW2 air-dropped torpedo from hell, with the addition that
capital ships can use them on each other. Space combat becomes a lot
shorter, and a lot deadlier. The ships get tiny - why build a 5000tn
spinal mount when you can wax an enemy battlecruiser with a 100tn
missile bay? Heck, a 30tn fighter might be big enough.

Quite a difference.

BTW, a note on my High Guard work. Someone was mentioning how
ridiculous it was that a fighter squadron could slow down a battleship for
a turn. Note that in High Guard's original rules, one 400tn SDB can stop
twenty Dreadnaughts in their tracks, for as long as it takes them to kill
it. My rule ideas would make one dreadnaught hunt down the SDB, while
the others got to play with other targets.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:20:42 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Near (dice) misses

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Nikki Wieleba wrote:

> F.I., what happens if the pilot is attempting to dock with a ship and 
> misses his roll by one, by two, etc.?

In my own games, I attribute a certain amount of "automatic success" to
pilots of a given skill level. For instance, I don't think someone with
pilot-4 should have to roll for a routine docking. They're so highly
trained that they could do that in their sleep. Given extenuating
circumstances (under fire, thruster damaged, etc.) they would have to
roll.

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:24:46 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

On Monday, 22 March 1999 17:12, AveNelso@aol.com [SMTP:AveNelso@aol.com]
wrote:
> In a message dated 3/22/99 1:59:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> << MTC I gave the party ACR's in a Donosev locker, one of the players an
> 
>  old traveller hand, commented that this was a lot of fire power and that
>  
>  the ACR was primarily a military weapon...I guess I was going on the 
>  fact that on U.S. Naval vessals..they keep M16's in the ships 
>  locker...G >>
> 
> 	An ACR in a scout ship's locker sounds perfectly appropriate.   It
is a
> military weapon but it is not all that much more damaging than a hunting
> rifle, only with a higher ROF.   I believe all sorts of paramilitary
> groups in
> modern world (equivalent to scouts) would have such as M-16 (ACR-7)
> weapons
> availible as back-up  (US Coast Guard, Treasury Agents, Border Patrol
> etc).
> Now if you included a Plasma Gun or mortar, maybe he'd have something to
> gripe
> about.

I don't even see that much of a problem with one plasma gun, just in case.
Even Coast Toasties have MGs and larger deck guns.  I don't see a Scout team
carrying the MPPG regularly, but to have as a backup, to cover the
retreating team when everything drops in the pot, might be a good idea.

However, if it is ever needed, you can bet that Scout HQ will have words for
that team...

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:26:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Stepping outside the jump-field (be right back...)

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, E.D.Quibell wrote:

> How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people think
> this might have.

Good question. When something leaves the jump-field, does it precipitate
into normal space (probably thoroughly reduced to teeny-tiny component
particles) or does it simply "vanish"?

Any examples or discussion in "official" works (whatever that can be
construed to mean for Traveller these days!)?

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:29:16 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

This topic has been debated in enormous detail on this list and TTL.
I think a fair consensus would be that in general point defence lasers
do beat most kinetic-kill missiles (with the possible exception of 
huge, expensive missiles that deploy submunitions at quite long ranges),
and that (b) this isn't a bad thing, because missiles that can disable
battleships with a single hit are hardly Traveller canon.

>Actually, what will a PDL accomplish?  While  (see below) my missile won't
>be moving at an appreciable fraction of "C", at the velocities I have in
>mind, my missile uses no terminal guidance or warhead...the only way to take
>kinetic energy from my "warhead" is to vaporize it, and far enough from your
>hull that a high-velocity plasma jet doesn't reach you.  Basically, only a
>catostrophic hard kill does the trick.  Also, no sneaky nuclear dampners.
The missile probably does need some kind of terminal guidance and 
maneuver capability - if the missile goes ballistic even 30 seconds
out (one BL hex, quite short range) a 4-G battleship target has enough
time to move itself ~2 km away from where the missile is going to hit.
So the missile needs some kind of sensor or commo and some kind of
maneuver capability, which makes it vulnerable to lasers.

>No, you're right.  Still, a good velocity, say 1000km/sec, obtainable by a
>missile with a "mere" 30G in only one hour, would be:
>
>a. Very, very hard to find- until within a second or two, the object's tiny
>size means that it's apparent diameter is smaller than the resolution of any
>ship-based sensor. It is also not emitting much, if anything.
Sensors can detect things smaller than their resolution. (Your eye can
detect a star, which is much, much, much smaller than the resolution
of your eye.) Also, as long as the missile is maneuvering with a fusion
rocket it is incredibly easy to detect - you can see it halfway 
across the solar system. So you can follow it until it shuts down its
engine at (say) 30 seconds out then (see above) it'll just miss.
If it shuts down its engine at 1 second out it might hit but will be
well within laser engagement range. Finally, even with the engine off,
if you get a lock on it while it's still firing you can track it with
LIDAR or similar sensors.

>b.  Hard to target.  It will be within range for a very, very short time
>compared to conventional missiles and small craft.
Laser weapons can be astonishingly accurate. See the archived discussion
for details, but laser beams basically go where you point them with an
intrinsic error of a few nanoradian - about 1 cm at 10,000 km. The only
way not to get hit by a laser beam is to dodge in the time it takes the
laser beam to travel to you. For a missile to be able to dodge, it 
needs to keep accelerating (making it easy to detect) - if it goes
ballistic at even thirty thousand km the laser is guaranteed a hit
less than a second later.
Unfortunately for missiles, the size of
your "dodge radius" goes as range^2 (and only linearly with accel.) 
So a high-acceleration missile at very close range is actually easier
to hit than a battleship at long range. This means that even if the
missile keeps evading all the way to impact, once it's within about
5000 km it can't evade fast enough and the point defence laser is
guaranteed a hit (and has five whole seconds before the missile hits.)
One can (under FFS1) design lasers with really ludicrous rates of
fire that can catch a dozen missiles in this time. (I can post my
favourite, the BAMTech CSN/RT, if I can dig it up.)

>c.  Enourmously deadly *IF* it hits. 
This part is true, which is why we have to stop them.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:31:17 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Mustering Out Bennies

On Monday, 22 March 1999 18:59, AveNelso@aol.com [SMTP:AveNelso@aol.com]
wrote:
> In a message dated 3/22/99 6:32:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> efritz@GLJA.com
> writes:
> 
> << 
>  You're right. IMTU, the military doesn't allow "military weapons" to be
>  mustering out benefits. The exact definition of that term is open to
>  debate,
>  naturally. I generally translate it to mean "reasonable weapon".
>   >>
> 
> 	As a rule of thumb, I've always allowed weapons roughly equivalent
to
> 	Book 1
> (CT weapons) as mustering out weapons:   rifles, laser rifles, auto
> rifles
> yes,  plasma and fusion guns no.  I generally allow ACR's to Army and
> Marine
> characters since they aren't too different from autorifles.
> 
> 			Dave Nelson

If they will give a scout ship to a person, I don't see a problem with them
giving an ACR to someone. However, IMTU, any weapon given as a mustering out
benefit is engraved, decorated, etc with the servicemembers name, rank,
units, 'best wishes', etc that no one would ever consider using it in a real
fight unless it was the only weapon available.

Of course, if the weapon is used in a crime, it also make it easier for the
LEOs to track down the offender.

"Gosh, Officer - then this guy with this really ornate ACR opened
fire...looked like the same model I used in the Marines, except for all the
engraving."

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:32:59 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Stepping outside the jump field...

Brannon W. Boren wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, E.D.Quibell wrote:

> How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people think
> this might have.

Good question. When something leaves the jump-field, does it precipitate
into normal space (probably thoroughly reduced to teeny-tiny component
particles) or does it simply "vanish"?

Any examples or discussion in "official" works (whatever that can be
construed to mean for Traveller these days!)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU, a functioning, stable jump field is something you Do Not Fool With.
Maybe tossing things out the airlock will have no effect on it, maybe your
ship vanishes forever - this is not an experiment a ship crew will allow
you to perform.

Since ships destroyed while in jump space leave no wreckage to investigate
and no flight recorders, all kinds of myths and conjectures exist as to 
what happened. Many of these ideas caught on, and form a kind of SOP
for starship crews. One of the most common ones is "don't mess with
the jump field, even a little bit".

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #333
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 334



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate
Re: At your request
Primary Life Support Systems (PLSS)
Future psychology (was Re: why cant you children grow up?)
Re: Garbage (was Re: Rob)
Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate
Re: Imperial interdiction policies
Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?
Re: Colonization Rights
Re: Stepping outside the jump-field (be right back...)
Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate
Re: Near (dice) misses
Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate
Re: Garbage (was Re: Rob)
Re: Imperial interdiction policies
Re: (null)
Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav
Re: Future psychology (was Re: why cant you children grow up?)
Re: Colonization Rights
Garbage
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
M21: From First Contact to First IW (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:44:15 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

At 06:20 PM 3/23/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>So can you tell me, IYTU does "IRIS" exists or not?

I have sed IRIS since it was published.  I see it as a combination of MJ-12
and the darker aspects of FEMA.  Basicly, even those who have oversight or
hold the pursestrings never knew the scope or true charter IRIS operated under.

In most cases, they are neither good nor bad, just committed to their own
secret plans.  Actually, in one of the campaigns I was in they engineered a
hit on a peace meeting between a moderate faction of the Solomani
Confederation and the Fed of Daibei (sp?).  In the next few months
cooperation between the Solomani and Federation became much tighter as each
group tried to track down who they thought casued the assassination
attempt.  In the end, this caused the downfall of the extremists in the
Solomani Confederation and a cooperation treaty between the two polities.  

By the late 1100's (TNE had yet to be published), the newly created Rim
Republic had gone a long way to restoring peace and prosperity to the war
ravaged rim sectors.

I miss that campaign.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:49:37 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: At your request

Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> 
> When we have something meaningful to add, we post.

Amen! Disregarding this has, IMHO, caused most of the trouble
and ill-feelings of late. My first and last off-topic comment.

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:39:34 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <eholmes@lanl.gov>
Subject: Primary Life Support Systems (PLSS)

Fellow TMLers:

I have a burning question.

How many Traveller versions of PLSS are there and what
are their capabilities?  How are they used or combined with
Traveller armor such as Battle Dress, Combat Armor, etc?

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:51:38 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Future psychology (was Re: why cant you children grow up?)

>you have a point, but Rob Prior ditched, and I would rather have Rob back, so
>I think everybody's attitude towards Cliff is justified...

I am very saddened that Rob Prior left. However, that is not what bothers
me most about the entire affair.

It is entirely likely that Clif suffered from a personality disorder of
some type (my guess would be Borderline Personality Disorder).

He certainly tended towards abusiveness, but this does not excuse the many
abusive things said right back at him *on list.* This should have been
taken to private email (for those who want to argue with those who are most
likely mentally ill) *or* taken up with Rob Miracle (in the form of
requests to to have Clif removed from the list).

IMO, those that argued with Clif most vehemently were *worse* than Clif --
I was offended more by the well-thought-out, unpleasant things written (and
now, it seems, drawn) by certain others than the childish outbursts Clif
made.

IIRC, one poster even went so far as to bring up the possibility of Clif
being mentally unstable, then went right on berating him. This is, IMO,
akin to going up to a guy with schizophrenia on a street corner somewhere
and poking him with a stick because his ravings irritate you.

Clif was very difficult to get along with. He was abusive, short tempered,
paranoid, and ignored (or didn't understand) any advice given to him on how
to conduct himself in a social setting like this mailing list.

But still ...

ObTrav ('cause that is what this list is really about): Mental health in
the future. Some current theory holds that many of the most serious
psychological disorders are rooted in physiological breakdowns influenced
by many factors. Environmental stresses, genetic predisposition, bacterial
or viral infection, chemical poisoning, and even persistant illogical
thinking seem to have the ability to adversely affect the brain in such a
way as to cause a range of mental illnesses. Advanced technology might be
able to identify and correct many of these problems -- in fact, high tech
therapy might actually be able to make changes to the "hardware/software"
of the brain/mind interaction to both positive and negative results.

At what tech level does mental illness become a thing of the past? How
expensive is it? What are the ethical questions involved? What happens when
a high-tech society decides that certain traits -- traits that we might
consider "individual" -- are actually disorders that need to be treated? It
doesn't have to be something so blatant or Orwellian as "mind-stapling"
people to make them passive drones, either.

Sufficiently advanced techonology might even be able to affect mental
capacity. What would it be like to visit a world where everyone had an INT
of F?

IIRC, someone on the list (Robert?) wrote a piece on psychology at future
tech levels. Is this still in electronic form somewhere where I might get
at it? I can't seem to find it on my hard disk. :-(

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:49:31 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Garbage (was Re: Rob)

>How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people think
>this might have.
>
>Ewan

There was a comic strip in old White Dwarf called "The Travellers" where
they had signs put up on asteroids saying

"Conserve space, dump in jump!"

My PCs tend to get rid of embarassing bodies while in hyperspace.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:44:53 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

In a message dated 3/22/99 11:26:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, david.d.jaques-
watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

<< 
 2.   _Survival Margin_ discredits the organisation (Strephon's comment
 about "Maybe someone should explain the Moot to them").
 
 3.   IMTU, "IRIS" (if I ever get that far) will actually be a section of
 the IMOJ that breaks away from Lucan's control during the Rebellion. They
 set themselves up in the Vegan Autonomous District, and proceed to make
 their claims about validating Imperial heirs. For me, this gells with their
 "history" as stated in the original article. >>

I always intrepreted this as an organization that exceeded their mandate, but
quite legitemate at one time...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:52:33 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial interdiction policies

In a message dated 3/23/99 12:42:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< Meanwhile, of course, the real game is being played on the holovid and
 in the streets.  The "interstellar trade personnel" are broadcasting
 advertising of products just a step or two above the local tech level,
 along with dramatic and documentary programming whose basic message is,
 "gee, it's cool to be an Imperial citizen!"  The "colonists" are highly
 visible, and living visibly great lives.  Eventually the local kids at
 least will start demanding advertised toys, clothes, etc., and that
 culture will largely disappear, only to be remembered by anthropologists
 and historians. >>

Gee; it's just like McDonalds and Mickey Mouse sprouting up all over the
world. What does the 3I do when you get nationalist equivelents of the French
freaking over the pollution of their culture?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:02:50 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

Hi, all

First of all, Suz and Nikki, it's so nice to hear from
the both of you; I'd thought you all had left the list.
Glad to hear you haven't.

Secondly, I'm trying to find all the issues in the
GURPS engine which can affect a G:T game. Examples are
the effectiveness of point defense lasers vs. missiles,
the effectiveness of missiles in general, effective
use of fighter-type craft (if any), "double-booking",
etc.

I've already made a great deal of headway in IDing all
the advantages/disadvantages/skills I *don't* want to
use. I'm looking more for rules engine issues rather
than Traveller background issues.

Does anyone on the list know of any websites (other than
SJG and GURPSNet) which ID's/deals with these issues?
Basically, I'm looking for someone who has already done
the work rather than wading through 3 years of posts;
I've been tweaking Traveller rules since 1979 and I
admit to getting a little tired of it (one of the
reasons G:T will be the last set of Traveller rules I
learn).

Oh, one more thing..has anyone figured out why GURPS uses
armor PD in addition to DR rather than just DR? It seems
that PD is just an unnecessary complication. (YMMV)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:02:09 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?

In a message dated 3/23/99 5:20:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
washi@metronet.com writes:

<< How 'bout updating HG components to QSDS format?
  >>

How do you do this?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:57:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Colonization Rights

At 11:10 AM 3/23/99 +0000, Carlos wrote:

>	This reminds me of the main reason I do not find the official 
>universe all that useful for my IMTU. The above can be easily argued 
>in favor, in the Third Imperium, for worlds within its boundaries. 
>Probably there is an "Imperial Rules of Colonization" document...

Well, there is a canonical "Ministry of Colonization"

<snip>

>	For that matter, this is an important question in M:0. Say the 
>Imperium recognizes the rights of a group of colonists over a world, 
>but the nearest pocket empire suddenly decides that it is interested 
>in that world... in fact, <ehem>, the historical documents of this 
>empire *prove* <ehem> that he world has been claimend for over a 
>century...

"God is on the side of the biggest battalions"

Truly.  Consider the fate of the Meso-American nations when faced with the
Spanish technological superiority.  Or any case where on side has an
overwhelming advantage in population or technology.  Most of the time, that
side will win.

>	For that matter, a world is a very big place. What happens if two 
>different groups settle on different continents and claim 
>colonization rights?

Esalin/Jewell was co-owned by the Zhodani and the Imperium after the 4FW.
Each side had forces on the planet limited to the local TL, and port of
call rights.  Made for an interesting place to visit.  Especially when an
Imperial and Zhodani flotilla were making courtesy calls at the same time..
(cf: "The Trouble With Tribbles" bar fight sequence.)

>	Outside the Imperium, what happens if each of the groups gets 
>colonization rights from different interstellar states? Will a war 
>erupt? Yes, of course, it depends, but let's assume it is that M:0 
>situation. Will the early 3I go to war with a Pocket Empire to 
>guarantee that *its* colonists get the whole world? Will they send 
>the marines? Or will they negotiate? Makes for some interesting world 
>hooks...

Negotiate first.  But hold the negotiations onboard a Coronation class
battleship.  Let them know what the are facing.  If you go with the "Ugly
Sylean" school of thought for M:0, the Imperium *wants* to promote conflict
when it hits a multi-world polity.  Makes it easier to absorb the remains.

>	Now that I stop to think about it, what about *half* a world 
>belonging to the 3I, the other half to a pocket empire? The result of 
>a failed negotiation attempt...

Carlos, you have just launched a thousand campaigns.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:17:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Stepping outside the jump-field (be right back...)

At 07:26 AM 3/23/99 -0800, you wrote:

>Good question. When something leaves the jump-field, does it precipitate
>into normal space (probably thoroughly reduced to teeny-tiny component
>particles) or does it simply "vanish"?

Since the bubble is protecting you from jump space, I'd imagine that what
passes throught the field enters the jump dimension.

I'd also assume that dumping soldi matter through the field might be a very
bad thing.


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric flightless
 winged squirrel, coming through.."
                -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:12:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

At 12:19 AM 3/23/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Next on I-SPAN: Live Holocast at 1230-1830 CST: MOOT QUESTION TIME at
>MOOT SPIRE

ROTFLMAO at the very thought!

But who answers the questions?  Since the Emperor cannot enter the Moot
Spire without an invitation, does he have a PrimeMinister to handle this
duty, or is question time a regular event?
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:09:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Near (dice) misses

At 07:20 AM 3/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Nikki Wieleba wrote:
>
>> F.I., what happens if the pilot is attempting to dock with a ship and 
>> misses his roll by one, by two, etc.?
>
>In my own games, I attribute a certain amount of "automatic success" to
>pilots of a given skill level. For instance, I don't think someone with
>pilot-4 should have to roll for a routine docking. They're so highly
>trained that they could do that in their sleep. Given extenuating
>circumstances (under fire, thruster damaged, etc.) they would have to
>roll.

In CORPS (plug, plug) if a task's difficulty is lower than the character's
skill, success is automatic, no need to roll.

Taking the example given, missing the roll by only one or two might result
in the ship coming in a little hard, or the task taking longer because of
the need to fine tune the approach.  Watch videos of the shuttle docking
with Mir for ideas.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:15:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

At 06:20 PM 3/23/99 +1000, you wrote:

>So can you tell me, IYTU does "IRIS" exists or not?

No.  According to canon, the Moot is responsible for determining the
suitibility of any heir.  Hence the Emperors elevated to the throne by Moot
vote during the Civil War.

>I ask because:
>
>1.   The original article is specifically labelled as a "variant".
>
>2.   _Survival Margin_ discredits the organisation (Strephon's comment
>about "Maybe someone should explain the Moot to them").

That and his "I think I might have heard of them before comment."

>3.   IMTU, "IRIS" (if I ever get that far) will actually be a section of
>the IMOJ that breaks away from Lucan's control during the Rebellion. They
>set themselves up in the Vegan Autonomous District, and proceed to make
>their claims about validating Imperial heirs. For me, this gells with their
>"history" as stated in the original article.

I like the theory (forgot who put it forward) that IRIS was a construct of
the Brothers of Varian.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:24:27 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Garbage (was Re: Rob)

At 05:49 PM 3/23/99 +0000, you wrote:
<<snip>>
>My PCs tend to get rid of embarassing bodies while in hyperspace.

One memorable session the PCs decieded to get even with one of the other
PCs in the group.  While he was sleeping in a hotel room, the entered his
room, emptied several magazines of gauss pistol ammo into his sleeping
form, then loaded everything in the room onto a waiting grav van, replaced
all the fittings with new furnishings unloaded from grav van #2, then made
a bee-line for their ship waiting for them.  Once in J-space, they dumped
both grav vans.  



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:30:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial interdiction policies

At 10:52 AM 3/23/99 EST, you wrote:

>Gee; it's just like McDonalds and Mickey Mouse sprouting up all over the
>world. What does the 3I do when you get nationalist equivelents of the
>French freaking over the pollution of their culture?

Ignore them, and keep selling to the kids.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:32:25 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: (null)

>I could rant here, but the perpetrator has run away, and it isn't worth it.
>Maybe if enough people contact Rob, maybe if people are a little more
>supportive, maybe if people think of others before they write, maybe he'll
>be back sooner rather than later. That is if you prefer the contribution of
>someone who has written material for Traveller since MT days, has provided
>some really good GURPS Traveller and T4 material both as shareware and
>freely, and is always positive. If you prefer the *contributions* of the
>likes of Clif, perhaps you'd like to say so I can consider unsubscribing
>too.
>

I'm sharing your opinion totally!

Jens Maskus, not a big contributer!

- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:35:07 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

I don't have the GURPS rules in front of me...but PD is a type of Dex 
advantage... To me it works like the Dex advantage to armor in 
ADnD...Check out the combat section in the basic rulebook...there should 
be something in there...
Just a comment too..It might be biased :)

But once you "learn" the GURPS rules you can use the other sourcebooks 
too..Biotech, Dinosaurs and Robots might all be useful to a Traveller 
GM...
mike



Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:34:43 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav

ROFL!!!  Boyz from the Dwwwwarffff!!!!
Jesse

OBTrav:  Leviathan,...Red Dwarf....You be the judge ;)


>>>All we can do now is hope that Cliff doesn't return in "hologram" form
;-)
>>>TAS
>
>    Well, he was a Smeg-head.  *weg*
>
>>"You never learnnn, do you?" painting an "H" on forehead with curry....
>
>
>    You like someone who would have a head shaped like a novelty ice cube,
>not an "H".
>
>>You have to have seen the British comedy "Red Dwarf" to have gotten that
>one
>>;)
>
>
>    Yes, you would have.
>
>>Jesse
>
>
>Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
>Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
>ICQ # 8973001
>legate@futureone.com
>http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm
>
>"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
>the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
>mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of
>French porn." - Edmund Blackadder
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:41:18 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Future psychology (was Re: why cant you children grow up?)

In a message dated 3/23/99 7:55:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
yikes@evansville.net writes:

<< ObTrav ('cause that is what this list is really about): Mental health in
 the future. Some current theory holds that many of the most serious
 psychological disorders are rooted in physiological breakdowns influenced
 by many factors. Environmental stresses, genetic predisposition, bacterial
 or viral infection, chemical poisoning, and even persistant illogical
 thinking seem to have the ability to adversely affect the brain in such a
 way as to cause a range of mental illnesses. Advanced technology might be
 able to identify and correct many of these problems -- in fact, high tech
 therapy might actually be able to make changes to the "hardware/software"
 of the brain/mind interaction to both positive and negative results.
 
 At what tech level does mental illness become a thing of the past? How
 expensive is it? What are the ethical questions involved? What happens when
 a high-tech society decides that certain traits -- traits that we might
 consider "individual" -- are actually disorders that need to be treated? It
 doesn't have to be something so blatant or Orwellian as "mind-stapling"
 people to make them passive drones, either.
 
 Sufficiently advanced techonology might even be able to affect mental
 capacity. What would it be like to visit a world where everyone had an INT
 of F?
 
 IIRC, someone on the list (Robert?) wrote a piece on psychology at future
 tech levels. Is this still in electronic form somewhere where I might get
 at it? I can't seem to find it on my hard disk. :-( >>

sounds very Zhodani to me citizen...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:45:38 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Colonization Rights

In a message dated 3/23/99 8:22:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< 
 "God is on the side of the biggest battalions" >>

Nope; G-d's on the side of the best shots...:-).  Thanks Voltaire and Bernard
Cornwell (love the Sharpe's series). Hint, hint; who's game to write a
Traveller version of Maj. Sharpe?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:49:53 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Garbage

 "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk> types out:
>Allen Shock wrote:
>> ObTrav: some garbage has to get ejected out the airlock for the good of the
>> ship....
>How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people think
>this might have.

    It annoys the Jump Space Dragons.  


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco." 
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:51:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

Shawn @ Electric Stitch writes:
> 
> Is the G:T book in error? On page 110 it states that Gauss Guns fire
> high-intensity dart ammunition. Armor DR is halved, but damage is not
> halved after penetrating DR.
>

Hrm.  No, more likely I'm just forgetful, I was assuming APS rounds.  In any
case, blowthrough still limits damage to 10 pts, though this means that brain
and vitals shots will probably be instantly lethal (-5xHT in one shot).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:54:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

Eris reddoch writes:

> There *is* a blow-through rule (optional, like most GURPS rules), that
> limits the amount of damage to some max (don't have my books here, but
> I think it's HT). 

Hm..I never read it as optional.  Max is HT for bullets (different for other
types of attacks.
> 
> Let's say Joe Generio (10) had armor with 10 DR (that's pretty good
> personal armor, I think)

Actually, it's not; that's roughly equivalent to TL 8 light concealable armor
(light monocrys, DR 8).  Good ultratech armor tends to have DR 40+.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:01:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: M21: From First Contact to First IW (Long)

From Andrew M-V's Prometheus Rising data, I've found that Terra 
expanded from its own system to the following systems:

Barnard/Ikugi (SolRim 1926)
E200472-A
Population: 30,000

Prometheus (SolRim 2027)
C785763-6
Population: 90 million

Peraspera (SolRim 2028)
E7A2467-6
Population: 30,000

Junction (SolRim 1929)
D975765-3
Population: 10 million

Midway (SolRim 2029)
E699665-6
Population: 3 million

Fenris (SolRim 1830)
DA98668-4
Population: 5 million

Hades (SolRim 2030)
E432565-7
Population: 400,000

Hephaistos (SolRim 1931)
D930418-9
Population: 20,000

Calgary (SolRim 2031)
DA9A565-4
Population: 700,000

Inferno (SolRim 2131)
D578663-4
Population: 1 million

Forlorn (SolRim 2132)
D496663-5
Population: 1 million

Remulak (SolRim 1833)
E974573-4
Population: 400,000

Over a span of 14 years, the United Nations exported over 110 million 
people to the mainworlds of these systems, and this doesn't include 
the other worlds occupied during this time period either.

Good ol' Cats&Rats talks of a Terran initiative taken during the
early parts of the wars to send out colony ships that raised 20,000
people in creches onsite, and populated a world very quickly.  I
think that Hephaistos reflects the first experiments in that
direction.  (Note the high TL, the correct population, and its the
only Corporate government type in the whole list.)  The rest are
colonies, or started that way.

So, how big should a TL 9 colony ship be that was used to populate 
these worlds?  (All of them are primarily first generation settlers, 
so they've been moved in.)  Perhaps a third of the numbers listed 
came from enhanced fertility and such, promoted by the UNSC to get 
the Terran numbers up against their huge enemy.  That's still 70 
million that need to be moved.

Did the colony ships hold settlers in the range of a thousand a trip? 
 10,000 a trip?  20K?  50K?  100K?  If so, were they all under Cold 
Sleep, to reduce environmental conditions and strains?  (Was Cold 
Sleep available at TL 9?)

So here's the request:

I'd like to exchange some thoughts on the design philosophy of a TL 9 
Colony Ship.  It is limited to Jump 1, and probably carries enough 
fuel to make two jumps without refueling.  Maneuver drives can be 
kept at 1G.  How big should it be?  How many colonists would be 
transported, and how?  Any thoughts or suggestions would be 
appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Jason


==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #334
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 335



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: Stepping outside the jump field...
M21: Some Notes on World Histories...
Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Red Dwarf (was: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav)
RE: Garbage
Re: Near (dice) misses
Gurps Books
Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?
Re: Max Acceleration
Re: Clif
How do you "update" HG components into QSDS?
Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Re: Stepping outside the jump field...
Re: Gurps Books
re: Garbage
M:E21 Colony Ships
Re: Red Dwarf (was: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav)
Armor PD in GURPS
Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
re: Max Acceleration / High Guard
Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:17:45 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

Kristian Miller wrote:

> Hi Todd, and All:
>
> "Todd A. Zircher" wrote:
>
> > Sticking in an animation loop where it rotates on the axis may be
> > a good look.
>
> I'm not sure I follow you...

I did this:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/1056/berne.gif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:31:30 +0100
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Stepping outside the jump field...

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Brannon W. Boren wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, E.D.Quibell wrote:
> 
> > How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people think
> > this might have.
> 
> Good question. When something leaves the jump-field, does it precipitate
> into normal space (probably thoroughly reduced to teeny-tiny component
> particles) or does it simply "vanish"?
> 
> Any examples or discussion in "official" works (whatever that can be
> construed to mean for Traveller these days!)?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> IMTU, a functioning, stable jump field is something you Do Not Fool With.
> Maybe tossing things out the airlock will have no effect on it, maybe your
> ship vanishes forever - this is not an experiment a ship crew will allow
> you to perform.
> 
> Since ships destroyed while in jump space leave no wreckage to investigate
> and no flight recorders, all kinds of myths and conjectures exist as to
> what happened. Many of these ideas caught on, and form a kind of SOP
> for starship crews. One of the most common ones is "don't mess with
> the jump field, even a little bit".
> 
> Walt Smith



IMHO anything of a given size (molecules ? bullets ? stones ?
plasma-jets ?  - take whatever you think to be appropriate) or
energy-density (laserbeams ?) touching the jump-field will disturb it,
thus causing a (major ?) misjump.

Maybe the breakdown of the jumpfield while in jump (being a _really
major_ jumpdrive failure), or leaving the jumpfield results in the
immediate return of the ship (or whatever) in normal space, usually
spread out over a sphere with a diameter of several parsec. This might
qualify as *vanishing forever*.


Bye the way, why dumping annoying things like corpses in jump-space.
Dump it while conducting gasgiant refueling. I doubt anyone will find
anything dumped into a gg.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:30:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: M21: Some Notes on World Histories...

Fellow Sophonts,

I'd like to post some notes on some of the various worlds involved in 
the Andrew M-V's Prometheus Rising data, at the time of the 1st 
Interstellar War.  Your input would be greatly appreciated.

Barnard/Ikugi (SolRim 1926)
E200472-A
Population: 30,000

At the time of the Barnard Incident, the world of Barnard (Ikugi to
the Vilani) is divided into the Sharushiid Complex (pop. 10,000),
under Vilani rule, and three UN colonies (combined pop. 21,000). 
The people of the UN colonies are divided in Pro-Vilani/Anti-Vilani
sentiment, until the Cantebury is destroyed by a Vilani vessel. 
This incident galvanizes the population of the UN against the
Vilani, and launches the First Interstellar War.

Prometheus (SolRim 2027)
C785763-6
Population: 90 million

The second planet to be colonized, following the Barnard Colony, 
the Prometheus Colony recently celebrated its Tenth Year Anniversary.

Fenris (SolRim 1830)
DA98668-4
Population: 5 million

Fenris is a jungle world, protected by pollens that hyperactivates 
most Terran immune responses, sending unprotected humans into 
anaphylactic shock and death.  The world is also home to its own 
indeginous lifeforms.  Several companies lead hunting safaris into 
the wilds around the colonies, making Fenris the latest recreation 
site among Terran nobility.

Hephaistos (SolRim 1931)
D930418-9
Population: 20,000

"The Company," a European corporate conglomerate, has obtained the
rights to perform a colonization test program involving creche
births on the world of Hephaistos.  If successful, the system will
be utilized to help colonize many worlds to Rimward of Terra, in an
effort to insure the survival of the Terran race.  A majority of the
population are in their early teens, and are currently undergoing
deep education/training, based off of similar methods used in
military eugenics programs in the late 2000's in the Terran system.

Remulak (SolRim 1833)
E974573-4
Population: 400,000

Remulak contains the hold-overs from an attempt by several Navy 
captains to form a pocket empire to rimward of Terra and the Ziru 
Sirka.  Although the rebellion was put down two years ago, the 
population rejected UN rule, and began attracting all manners of 
political malcontents.  After the Vilani situation is taken care of, 
the UNSC is determined to resolve this issue.  Until then, the planet 
is kept under tight surveillance.

Thank you very much for your time,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:34:55 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

Michael McKeown posted:
>
>I don't have the GURPS rules in front of me...but PD is a type of Dex 
>advantage... To me it works like the Dex advantage to armor in 
>ADnD...Check out the combat section in the basic rulebook...there should 
>be something in there...
>Just a comment too..It might be biased :)

There is. Supposedly, PD is the ability of the armor to shrug off an attack
and represents the amount of damage the armor *always* protects
against even when the target is surprised, unconscious, etc.

My understanding (assumption) of armor is if it's between you and
an attack, it protects. The Dex advantage in ADnD represents a
character's ability to dodge an attack which is something completely
different. GURPS already separates the Dodge capability from amor
damage absorption/negation.

Now you know why I'm confused. I'll probably just ignore any PD ratings
and just stick with an armor's DR.

>But once you "learn" the GURPS rules you can use the other sourcebooks 
>too..Biotech, Dinosaurs and Robots might all be useful to a Traveller 
>GM...
>mike

Oh my, yes! I shelled out over $100 US for all the
non-fantasy GURPS books when I heard G:T was being
published. I have yet to regret it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:38:36
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Red Dwarf (was: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav)

At 08:34 AM 3/23/99 -0800, you wrote:

>OBTrav:  Leviathan,...Red Dwarf....You be the judge ;)

I theenk the RD is a *tad* larger than the Leviathan...

Just saw Red Dwarf VIII on the local PBS station, and they had an
interesting concept

<Spoiler Alaert for Red Dwarf seasons 7 & 8)

The nanobots in season 7 ended up recreating Red Dwarf, including the crew.
 This means we get the real arnold Judas Rimmer back, and our heroes are
thrown into the brig for stealing Star Bug.  As prisoners, they atre given
the oppotunity to become "Canaries."  These are suicide teams that RD uses
for a variety of purposes.  

ObTrav:  should be obvious...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:41:57 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Garbage

Ewan Quibell writes:
"How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people 
think this might have."

	IMTU no field is required to stay in jump space, rather you
	stay there due to 4th dimensional inertia. Thus, anything 
	ejected from the ship will share that inertia and will
	harmlessly continue through jump space until dropping out 
	(probably about the same time that you do). Because jump 
	space is not linear, however, the garbage may drop out a
	very long way away, particularly if it is ejected early in
	the jump.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:40:23 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Near (dice) misses

Having recently started converting to G:T I reviewed GURPS dice rolling
and decided that ALL major actions needed to be rolled. THe reason is
Critical Success and Critical Failure. Even though a character could
normally automatically succeed at a task if a critical was rolled it
still counted. The same was true of a critical success, if the character
would normally fail, a critical roll could cause a success. I did modify
this, slightly however, if a critical is rolled in the above cases (i.e.
normal automatic failure or success) the result become a NORMAL success
or failure.

How I handle the results varies for the situation. When writing an
adventure I only list MAJOR tasks (things like flying an air raft in a
storm, or hacking a secured database, etc.) and then list both normal
failure and critical failure for the task. For example, in hacking a
secured database, the normal failure would be just not geing able to
gain access, while a critical failure would be the triggering of an
alarm.

In general I try to think of a critical failure as "double the trouble"
of a normal failure. Likewise a critical success usually has some
benefit, again refering to the above example, such as finding a link to
a second hidden info file.
 
Mike

Nikki Wieleba wrote:
> 
> Hello all:
> 
> 
> Perhaps a general guideline for "level of disaster" versus amount of
> failure?
> 
> Any information or pointers in the correct direction would be appreciated.
> 
> 

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:53:17 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: Gurps Books

	These are the books I consider necessary to help run a Gurps:
Traveller campaign.  Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion and
yes I know you can run a campaign with just Gurps Light and Gurps Traveller.

Gurps Basic Set
Gurps Martial Arts (Really a necessary book for any campaign IMHO)
Gurps Robots
Gurps Psionics

	I didn't mention the obvious G:T books, and I didn't include Gurps
Space since I don't really feel it adds that much value beyond the basic G:T
book.
The Space Beastiary book might be useful, but it's been out of print for a
long time and I haven't even been able to locate a copy on the net.  I can't
comment on the two Compendium books since I haven't purchased them yet.
	On another note, has anyone given any thought to developing new
martial arts styles for the different Imperial or Zhodani services?  I was
thinking about it the other day and thought maybe you could take the basic
military training style from Gurps Martial Arts and tweak it for the
Marines, the Army, the Scouts and the S3 Scouts.  Any thoughts on what
manuvers to put in for each branch or whether it's even necessary to pursue
this at all?

		Alan Hatcher

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:48:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

Smart, David J (David) writes:
> There is. Supposedly, PD is the ability of the armor to shrug off an attack
> and represents the amount of damage the armor *always* protects
> against even when the target is surprised, unconscious, etc.

Actually, what PD represents is the tendency of armor to deflect hits (if they
come in at a poor angle), rather than absorbing them.  I don't necessarily
agree with how GURPS handles PD, but that's what it supposely represents.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:53:16 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Best Way to Post Ship Designs?

Black ICE wrote:

>1.  Currently, I post the text description to my Web site in Rich Text
>Format (because I want to preserve the formatting).  Is this a problem? 
>Is RTF accessible enough cross-platform?  Should I forget the
>formatting, and post in plain text?
>
>2.  I occassionally post plain-text ship descriptions to the TML.  Is
>this a waste of bandwidth?  Would you prefer that I merely alert you to
>new ships on my site?

I'm happy to see plaintext ships on the list. They don't take up as much
bandwidth as one HTML post to the list...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:02:11 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Max Acceleration

Walter Smith wrote:

>I'm wondering what the ramifications of such a weapon would be in terms
>of fleet design philosophies.
>
>Take HG, add a weapon that will kill a very large or low-agility target almost
>every time. The only defenses against it are high agility, or the ability to
>keep the firing unit from getting into range. Add that this weapon can be
>fired from a very small ship. 

Add one constraint - the weapon has very short range compared with the
main armament on the heavies- far, far less than the meson
guns/PAW/Lasers - i.e. you have to survive closing to point-blank range
to fire it.

>We have the WW2 air-dropped torpedo from hell, with the addition that
>capital ships can use them on each other. Space combat becomes a lot
>shorter, and a lot deadlier. The ships get tiny - why build a 5000tn
>spinal mount when you can wax an enemy battlecruiser with a 100tn
>missile bay? Heck, a 30tn fighter might be big enough.

With the modification above, there is now a justification for fighters.
Big ships probably aren't going to risk closing (since the enemy big
ship might fire one of these weapons back at you); but lobbing in a
squadron or two of fighters? Sure.

OTOH, if all you build are small craft with this weapon, the enemy is
going to build a few bigger ships that can toast you at range - so you
need a balanced fleet.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:46:22 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Clif

SD Mooney wrote:

>>He has unsubscribed him self before I had a chance to.
>>Lets drop the subject and get back to Traveller.
>
>Due to timing of the Digest some of my posts may follow this announcement.
>Apologies.
>
>Dom
>
>PS What happens if he re-subs?

Redleg, this is X-Ray six-six. Fire mission. Grid xxxxxx-yyyyyy. Four
rounds HE superquick, four rounds HE delayed. TOT. Over.

ObTrav: This is probably overkill to most groups of PCs - unless they
happen to be in a starship or a tank at the time.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:10:32 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: How do you "update" HG components into QSDS?

Sethkimmel@aol.com asks:
>washi@metronet.com writes:
>
><< How 'bout updating HG components to QSDS format?
> >>
>
>How do you do this?

I'm thinking of SWAGs; that is, approximation, interpolation,
extrapolation, and wild guesswork.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 1999 13:07:04 -0500
From: Scott E Kullberg <sekullbe@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> writes:

> Michael McKeown posted:
> >
> >I don't have the GURPS rules in front of me...but PD is a type of Dex 
> >advantage... To me it works like the Dex advantage to armor in 
> >ADnD...Check out the combat section in the basic rulebook...there should 
> >be something in there...
> >Just a comment too..It might be biased :)
> 
> There is. Supposedly, PD is the ability of the armor to shrug off an attack
> and represents the amount of damage the armor *always* protects
> against even when the target is surprised, unconscious, etc.
> 
> My understanding (assumption) of armor is if it's between you and
> an attack, it protects. The Dex advantage in ADnD represents a
> character's ability to dodge an attack which is something completely
> different. GURPS already separates the Dodge capability from amor
> damage absorption/negation.
> 
> Now you know why I'm confused. I'll probably just ignore any PD ratings
> and just stick with an armor's DR.

PD as an advantage seems to me to have a different rationale than armor
PD, but with the same effect- it's either some intrinsic ability to
avoid blows (like the Truul in GURPS Aliens), or hyper-reflexes, or
mystic force fields, or something else normal humans can't have. It can
also be plain old armor if you're building a robot or cybered
character. But I think in Traveller you won't see PD (or Enhanced Dodge)
as a PC advantage without a terribly generous GM...

I've always taken armor PD to represent the ability of armor to 'turn' a
blow, so it never strikes squarely enough to do damage at all. The PD
number is added to the active defense since they work together to avoid
attacks (i.e. if you dodge a little, your armor can cause the blow/shot
to glance off, but you'd have been damaged without armor). It's what
makes plate armor better than an equivalent weight of chain. (p.71-72 in
the main GURPS book)

If you leave PD off of armor, defense rolls will become much harder to
make and GURPS combat will get even deadlier; maybe this is what you
want though. :) There are probably other balance issues with PD that I
can't think of right offhand.


- -- 
Scott E Kullberg <*>  sekullbe@{mediaone.net|mit.edu} --><--
 "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:12:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Stepping outside the jump field...

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Holger Kadlez wrote:
> 
> Maybe the breakdown of the jumpfield while in jump (being a _really
> major_ jumpdrive failure), or leaving the jumpfield results in the
> immediate return of the ship (or whatever) in normal space, usually
> spread out over a sphere with a diameter of several parsec. This might
> qualify as *vanishing forever*.

Interesting encounter: The AE-35 antennae on the ship's exterior is giving
an indication that its structural brace has fractured. If it breaks loose
and contacts the jump field, it could be "bad." (imagine all life as we
know it ceasing to exist and every molecule in your body exploding at the
speed of light)

One of the PCs has to spacewalk on the outside of the ship, clinging to
the hull so as not to contact the jump field himself, and secure the
antennae.

And you thought engineering was a safe profession!

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:21:31 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Gurps Books

In my VERY humble opinion :) 

G: Martial arts is ok if that is going to be a very major part of your 
game. I feel that traveller is more hard sci-fi and not martial arts and 
stick to giving the players judo and karate and let then specify where 
they hit an attacking NPC....
G: Space is good I feel cause it gives me a quick reference for 
astronomical events and places that I as a GM might want the players to 
encounter...I know the GT/G: Space UWP system is differnt from CT/MT, 
I've never used it as I refer to CT publications. But I bought behind 
the claw to refer to....
mike




Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:31:12 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Garbage

>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
>Subject: Garbage
...
>>How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people think
>>this might have.
>
>    It annoys the Jump Space Dragons. 

  _Someone_ has been reading too much Cordwainer Smith (IIRC)...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:36:53 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: M:E21 Colony Ships

> So here's the request:
>
> I'd like to exchange some thoughts on the design philosophy of a TL 9
> Colony Ship.  It is limited to Jump 1, and probably carries enough
> fuel to make two jumps without refueling.  Maneuver drives can be
> kept at 1G.  How big should it be?  How many colonists would be
> transported, and how?  Any thoughts or suggestions would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Jason

I think a colony ship shouldn't be too large, and should have coldsleep of some
kind for best value.  A 10,000 ton J1 ship could have
6000+ tons free for low berths.  Using something like emergency
low berths (4 people per dton), 25,000 people could be squeezed
into a ship.  Make 4 round trips a year and you have 100,000 people
moved in one year.  Have 10 such ships and you have 1 million
people, per year.

Probably a safer way is to have a fleet of 1000-ton cold-sleep ships;
say, a few hundred of them, with 2000-2500 peoplesicles per ship.
This way, a hundred different interests can launch colony ships, from
nations, large corporations, and various agencies.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:33:27 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Red Dwarf (was: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav)

True.  Sure look similar though when you disregard the size ;)
Jesse

>I theenk the RD is a *tad* larger than the Leviathan...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:24:33 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Armor PD in GURPS

"Oh, one more thing..has anyone figured out why GURPS uses
armor PD in addition to DR rather than just DR? It seems
that PD is just an unnecessary complication. (YMMV)"

as explained in the rules. PD represents the armor's tendency to deflect
attacks completely; an armor with a high PD, when struck, is more likely to
bounce the attack completely. The PD is added to the defense roll of the
character. Without it, defense rolls would be made far less often, and
characters would die more often. DR, or Damage Resistance, is the number of
points of damage the armor absorbs when it is hit.

Rather than a needless complication, PD is in fact an integral part of the
defense/damage system that makes GURPS my preferred system for any genre
involving hand-to-hand combat. There are rules in High-Tech for reducing PD
to account for high-velocity bullets (thus making them harder to dodge), and
the GM is always free to say that a particular attack cannot be dodged (such
as lasers). Myself, I just let 'em do it anyway; GURPS is lethal enough that
I figure the characters need all the breaks they can get.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:41:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> I still can not come to terms that the Imperial
> Marines would allow someone to claim a fusion gun as a benefit of service
> unless the handwave was that he was doing 'odd jobs' for the Marines and
> they knew where he might end up.
>

Ayup! That fusion gun is gonna be a mighty big string tying that
character back to the marines as an 'irregular contractor'. For
instance...where is he going to get reloads for the thing? It's not like
he can walk into Joes Sporting Goods and ask for a box of fusion gun
rounds.

Similarly, he's not going to be using the thing without drawing lots and
lots of attention. So sure, the character gets a fusion gun with a
magazine o' rounds. Now what?

This is an automatic hook to get the PC's involved in all sorts of
almost-but-not-quite-legal-sort of jobs for people they _think_ are part
of the Imperial Military. Like that syndicated TV show SOF (which used
to be called Soldier of Fortune, but got changed along with a partial
cast change to Special Ops Forces..I think it's on the UPN network. It
now has Dennis Rodman as an actor in it...)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:58:59 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Max Acceleration / High Guard

Hello,
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Max Acceleration
...
>BTW, a note on my High Guard work. Someone was mentioning how
>ridiculous it was that a fighter squadron could slow down a battleship for

  That was probably me :)

>a turn. Note that in High Guard's original rules, one 400tn SDB can stop
>twenty Dreadnaughts in their tracks, for as long as it takes them to kill
>it. My rule ideas would make one dreadnaught hunt down the SDB, while
>the others got to play with other targets.

  Even in second edition HG a single vessel can be placed in the line such
enemy units may only fire at that one vessel and not any Reserve/Screened
units; the big difference from first ed. is that in 2ed the recognition is
made that both lines are clearly in effective range of all units in each 
battle-line.

  If such were to be gamed out a la Mayday (an old Dragon/Aries article made
a decent start on this) then clearly a ship _could_ not be rendered unable
to move; at best a ship could be prevented from moving through the hex of a
hostile vessel able to fire weapons capable of inflicting meaningful damage.
This reflects nicely the implications of going too close to a laser-armed
ship and being subject to near auto hits in near-ROF quantities (!); the best
way of handling this would be akin to Star Cruiser/2300 AD's overrun rules -
upon entering an enemy hex (or vice versa) all beams involved get to resolve
an additional combat phase at normal hit opportunities, without losing their
normal extended range combat phase later in the turn sequence.

  Did you ever clarify how in your proposed pseudo-Imperium adaptation
it was that a fighter squadron managed to operate as a coherent unit
yet a pair of cruisers seemed to be doomed to wander about randomly?

  FWIW, under the restrictions you seemed to be placing on co-ordinated
ops how would the optional Escort rules you posted be able to be used?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:09:27 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

At 11:41 AM 3/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>> 
>> I still can not come to terms that the Imperial
>> Marines would allow someone to claim a fusion gun as a benefit of service
>> unless the handwave was that he was doing 'odd jobs' for the Marines and
>> they knew where he might end up.
>>
>
>Ayup! That fusion gun is gonna be a mighty big string tying that
>character back to the marines as an 'irregular contractor'. For
>instance...where is he going to get reloads for the thing? It's not like
>he can walk into Joes Sporting Goods and ask for a box of fusion gun
>rounds.

This was a MT version of the FGMP-15.  With the grav compensator and
backpack.  The only reloads it needs is eiter a ships powerplant or refined
fuel.  His motto later in the campaign was "Have water, will blast!"

We were contracted quite a bit for cross border "trade".  ;-)



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #335
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 336



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Garbage in Jumpspace
Re: Garbage (was Re: Rob)
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
re: T4 Question
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"
HG Variant (was re: Max Acceleration/High Guard)
re: Ditzie says 'Bye Clif'
Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav
Re: GURPS PD
Re: Subject: RE: Garbage
Re: M:E21 Colony Ships
Re: Relic starships on planet surface
Re: Scarey TMLers... :^)
Re: Minor Race: the Komodani
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..
Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:06:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Garbage in Jumpspace

>Allen Shock wrote:
>> ObTrav: some garbage has to get ejected out the airlock for the 
good of the
>> ship....
> How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people
> think this might have.

We know from old TNS reports that someone has survived exposure to 
Jump Space (more than half of him anyway), and the ship returned to 
normal space intact.  Nothing further came of that news entry, to my 
knowledge.

Therefore, I would assume that chunking stuff into Jump Space doesn't 
destroy the ship, at least in the OTU.  Perhaps it depends on the 
mass that's dropped into J-Space.  If it's sufficient to change the 
gravitational moment by a significant amount (which varies from GM to 
GM), then the Jump field becomes unstable and the ship undergoes a 
misjump.

Suggestion:  For every unit of mass (say 1/1000th of the vehicle's
mass) ejected into J-space, impose a DM-1 on the original navigation
roll used to take the ship into J-space.  If the new result would
lead to a misjump, resolve as a misjump. The more penalties
accumulated, the more dangerous the misjump should be.

Alternatively, start with a particular mass, and modify the roll
based on orders of magnitude.  For example, at 1 X 10^-6
(1/1,000,000), the DM is -1.  At 1 X 10^-5 the DM is -2, and so on,
until we reach 10% of the vessel's mass, which imposes DM-5.  Beyond
10%, the Jump field integrity is violated, and the ship goes through
a horrible misjump or is most likely destroyed.

It's a starting point for a thought, anyway.

Keep On Travellin',
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:17:45 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Garbage (was Re: Rob)

>Allen Shock wrote:
>
>> ObTrav: some garbage has to get ejected out the airlock for the good of
the
>> ship....
>
>How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people think
>this might have.
>

hmmm...

Since the (mostly) accepted handwave is that the H2 fuel is used to maintain
a field of N-space around the ship - one that is slowly destroyed by contact
with J-space (hence the need to replentish it over the span of the jump), I
would think that dumping the garbage would cause a slight, but detectable
warpage of the J-field.  Because it did not occur as the field was formed,
it would not result in a major misjump (unless a catastrophic failure was
rolled), but would result in a minor course error.

Of course, minor is relative!  ;)

If it happened in MTU, I would probably double the error factor for the
target system emergance point.

Let's see, catastrophic failures could be:

- - Whatever was being dumped serves as a 'conductor' for J-space energy,
resulting in a breach of the J-field (and J-space sickness for anyone in the
area).

- - Garbage ejection opens both interior and exterior doors simultaneously -
explosive decompression begins NOW!

- - The JumpSpace dragon was waiting

- - Has anyone seen George since he went to dump the garbage yesterday?

douglas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:33:09 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

Joe Pettit writes:
>
>>> Sticking in an animation loop where it rotates on the axis
>>> may be a good look.
>>
>> I'm not sure I follow you...
>
> I did this:
> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/1056/berne.gif

Bingo!  In VRML, you would put all the parts into a group
and then rotate the group.

ObTrav:  Is there a canon description of a holotank or
         other such control interface/display for a
         ship's bridge?
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:12:08 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: T4 Question

"cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>

>What was Book F ?

The unreleased 'Nobles'.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:17:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>Most non-lye drain cleaners seem to be hydrochloric acid. Allow the
>*vapors* from HCl and ammonia to mix, and they'll form a fine white
>"smoke". This is fine particles of solid ammonium chloride.
>
>My "guess" is that ammonium chloride is a sufficiently good oxidizer to
>make a good combo with sugar. (The normal version of this is done with
>sodium or potassium nitrate and sugar).

Hmm.

FYI Bleaches are starting to switch to a Hydrogen Peroxide base from Sodium
Hypochlorite in Europe.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:29:15 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav

 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>ROFL!!!  Boyz from the Dwwwwarffff!!!!

Keep your eye out for 'White Dwarf', a BITS comedy adventure including the
Cat, Rimmer, Felix (exWD), Captain Jane A Way, and Hayes (ex WD), plus good
ole Mad 'Gav. Also included are an AI controlled AHL cruiser, assorted
Monsters, and the opening of the first McBurger chain in the Two Thousand
Worlds...

And the time travel bit ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:15:01 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"

 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>"You never learnnn, do you?" painting an "H" on forehead with curry....
>
>You have to have seen the British comedy "Red Dwarf" to have gotten that one
>;)

Red Dwarf VIII (now showing on BBC TV in the UK). Rimmer is more solid than
he used to be. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:39:40 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: HG Variant (was re: Max Acceleration/High Guard)

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  Even in second edition HG a single vessel can be placed in the line such
enemy units may only fire at that one vessel and not any Reserve/Screened
units; the big difference from first ed. is that in 2ed the recognition is
made that both lines are clearly in effective range of all units in each 
battle-line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I really need to find myself a copy of HG 1st Ed. I've picked up bits and
pieces of it from responses on the TML, but I'd like to get it all in one place
so I can really make a good comparison. 

IMO, the idea of a screened reserve in outer space is a bit crazy - especially
when the battle line can be one ship while the screened reserve numbers
in the dozens. I realize that it's a play mechanic, but I can't even come
up with an idea of what maneuvers it is abstracting. Maybe I can keep
you too busy to go after my transports by being right in your face and
firing, but I can't see slowing down the destroyers just because one
enemy gunboat survived being fired on by your cruisers.

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  If such were to be gamed out a la Mayday (an old Dragon/Aries article made
a decent start on this) then clearly a ship _could_ not be rendered unable
to move; at best a ship could be prevented from moving through the hex of a
hostile vessel able to fire weapons capable of inflicting meaningful damage.
This reflects nicely the implications of going too close to a laser-armed
ship and being subject to near auto hits in near-ROF quantities (!); the best
way of handling this would be akin to Star Cruiser/2300 AD's overrun rules -
upon entering an enemy hex (or vice versa) all beams involved get to resolve
an additional combat phase at normal hit opportunities, without losing their
normal extended range combat phase later in the turn sequence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Note that if the defending ship were close enough to the reserve for his
short range fire to be an effective deterrent to the enemy fleet, the
enemy fleet would be well within effective range of the reserve before getting
into the defender's deadly range. 

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Did you ever clarify how in your proposed pseudo-Imperium adaptation
it was that a fighter squadron managed to operate as a coherent unit
yet a pair of cruisers seemed to be doomed to wander about randomly?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
More ittle-bitty fighters fit in a light-second than big-ass cruisers. <G><G>

I think we're trying to push too much direct simulation onto the abstraction
here. I'm going to finish off the 1st draft rules and run a few test matches to 
see what the feel and results are like, that will be more important than
seeing how close the moment-by-moment game procedures mimic 
what it's like to sit at a CIC navplot and direct a warfleet. That kind of
simulation is possible, but it's not what I'm going for here.

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
  FWIW, under the restrictions you seemed to be placing on co-ordinated
ops how would the optional Escort rules you posted be able to be used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
*shrug*. Those were a variant for standard HG. This is a more serious
variant, not all variants will be compatible. The core idea of this variant
makes my optional Escort rules almost irrelevant anyway - if you want
your destroyer to keep his fighter squadron from attacking your transport,
match your destroyer against his fighter squadron.

I'm still a bit stuck on the commit order rules - commit order I'm sure will
make or break this, but the couple of ways I've come up with to resolve
it so far seem to get too fiddly.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:45:53 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Ditzie says 'Bye Clif'

Dom Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Keep your eye out for 'White Dwarf', a BITS comedy adventure including the
Cat, Rimmer, Felix (exWD), Captain Jane A Way, and Hayes (ex WD), plus good
ole Mad 'Gav. Also included are an AI controlled AHL cruiser, assorted
Monsters, and the opening of the first McBurger chain in the Two Thousand
Worlds...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My gamer friends are convinced I named my second son after good ole
Mad Gav. Just don't tell my wife....<G>

"The Travellers" was one of the best comic strips ever in a gaming 
magazine.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:19 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

Thanks to Michael McKeown, Anthony Jackson, Scott E Kullberg, 
and Allen Shock, I now understand that PD is a piece of armor's
innate ability to completely negate an attack without the armor
taking damage, thanks to that armor's material, surface area design
or whatever.

I believe some examples of armor which provide PD would be the
fluting on late 16th century Maximillian plate (surface area design)
or the frictionless armor of Larry Niven's KnownSpace books
(material).

Looks like I'm keeping PD (and I'm looking up the rules in High
Tech).

Thanks, guys!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:53:04 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav

Now THAT would be a great convention game :D
Jesse


>Keep your eye out for 'White Dwarf', a BITS comedy adventure including the
>Cat, Rimmer, Felix (exWD), Captain Jane A Way, and Hayes (ex WD), plus good
>ole Mad 'Gav. Also included are an AI controlled AHL cruiser, assorted
>Monsters, and the opening of the first McBurger chain in the Two Thousand
>Worlds...
>
>And the time travel bit ;-)
>
>Dom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:06:26 -0700
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS PD

>There is. Supposedly, PD is the ability of the armor to shrug off an
attack
>and represents the amount of damage the armor *always* protects
>against even when the target is surprised, unconscious, etc.


<snip>

>Now you know why I'm confused. I'll probably just ignore any PD
ratings
>and just stick with an armor's DR.


When it comes to vehicular combat, PD could probably be safely
ignored, especially considering the fact that GURPS has rules for
reduction of PD when using a high damage value weapon.

PD improves the ability of a target to dodge (or otherwise avoid
damage from) an attack. DR improves the ability of a target to absorb
an attack without taking damage. This could be important if you worry
about things like armor taking damage and such (this becomes an issue
in vehicular combat with ablative armor).

I would say that it's probably not a good idea to ignore PD in
non-vehicular combat, because people are going to get hit more often,
and GURPS combat is already deadly enough as is...

I would also avoid comparisons to D&D, as this will probably tend to
confuse you more. Just remember that PD helps avoid an attack and DR
helps absorb an attack.

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:28:13 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: Garbage

> Ewan Quibell writes:
> "How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people 
> think this might have."

IMTU (where one of Ewan's characters lives, btw ;-) ), ejecting 
garbage in jumpspace is not a problem. Opening a door to do it *is* a 
problem, since you break the lanthanum grid and, basically, jumpspace 
pushes in, with an unpredictable effect... it might swallow the 
character who was trying to dump the garbage. And it will probably 
affect the jump.

In principle, it could be easy to dump (jump?) garbage in jumpspace. 

Just have a chamber with lanthanum grid in the inside and the 
outside. Put the garbage there, open it, and let jumpspace swallow 
the garbage. However, it might affect the jump in an unpredictable 
way... maybe you end up 1 million km away from your destination, 
maybe it takes a day more.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:49:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: M:E21 Colony Ships

> From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
> I think a colony ship shouldn't be too large, and should have coldsleep of some
> kind for best value.  A 10,000 ton J1 ship could have
> 6000+ tons free for low berths.  Using something like emergency
> low berths (4 people per dton), 25,000 people could be squeezed
> into a ship.  Make 4 round trips a year and you have 100,000 people
> moved in one year.  Have 10 such ships and you have 1 million
> people, per year.

Nice, but I kinda like keeping the vessel size down, due to the 
length of time it takes to build larger vessels, and the various 
nations would want to stake their claims as quickly as possible.

> Probably a safer way is to have a fleet of 1000-ton cold-sleep ships;
> say, a few hundred of them, with 2000-2500 peoplesicles per ship.
> This way, a hundred different interests can launch colony ships, from
> nations, large corporations, and various agencies.

I like this idea.  This makes them approximately a quarter of the 
carrying capacity of the ESA Long-Range Colony ships launched in 
2049, but with the ability to quickly return to our homeworld and 
carry more people out into space.  Practically we looking at little 
more than six round trips a year per vessel, but we'd also see more 
vessels being constructed by a wider range of interests, which also 
covers the multitude of diverse cultures which fled to the stars, 
based on historical/world references from OTU canon.

Now to test this thought.  Prometheus was probably not settled until
2098 at the earliest, although I personally project the time to be
around late 2099 before colonization started in earnest.  The
population by 2010 is projected at 90 million (using Andrew M-V's
data), and we assume that a max of a third of that can be second
generation.  Then, we need to account for the movement of a minimum
of 60 million to Prometheus.  At 2500 per trip, that's 24000
vessel-trips.  Each round trip lasts a minimum of 32 days (4 J1
jumps with a two day loading and unloading time at each end, and
that's pushing it.)  One vessel could theoretically make eleven
round trips a year. Taking into account annual maintenance, and we
end up with ten round trips a year, roughly.  That's a minimum of
2400 ships running people non-stop to Prometheus over a ten year
time period.  (Or, if we look at the 10Kton Colony ships, it still 
takes 240 of them to cover the same situation.)  This doesn't take 
into account misjumps, which will eat a portion of the ships over the 
course of (24000 X 4=) 96000 jumps.

I like the concept of the 1000ton Colony ships, but we may have to
consider some much larger mega-colony ships to reduce the number of
vessels required to a realistic number.  We only need a relative few
of these mega-colony ships, though, with a swarm of 1000ton Colony 
vessels to spread the Terran race to the stars. 

Thanks,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:26:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relic starships on planet surface

In mail you write:

> I've been working on an intro scenario for trav and I'm trying to
> determine some way of preserving a relic starship on a plant surface for
> use by future generation. As an example - a critical starship component
> is broken and the crew of a vessel wants to preserve the ship for future
> use if a replacement part can be manufactured. Any ideas on how long the
> basic integrity of the systems (airlock seals, etc. ) can be relied on
> in a standard earth type atmosphere.
>
> The tar pits come to mind, perhaps pump the ship full of noble gas and
> coat it in tar?

Assuming that they can still fly it around the planet a bit (or
otherwise transport it), I'd say the best place would someplace like
Greenland or Antarctica. Snow & ice won't do too much to a ship, and the
cold will help preserve things. 

For that matter, Antarctica has these "dry valleys". Areas of bare rock
& gravel where it hasn't rained or snowed for thousands of years.
They'd be a *really* good place. Cold, dry, not anywhere *near*
primitives. 

The next best thing would be in lake far enough north or south. One
where the lower waters stay at 4C all year round. These waters will be
*very* depleted in oxygen. Not much in the way of fish or marine life
except for anaerobic micro-organisms.[1]

At, say, 100 ft (30 m) the pressure won't be that bad, but the ship
ship will be safe enough, and again the cold will help preserve it. The
lack of oxygen will help preserve the ship.

Tar pits would rank pretty low on my list. The tar, being a mix of all
sorts of petroleum type compounds is actually *more* likely to break
down seals. After all, it's got stuff like naptha in it. 

An old standby is to dig a cave, move the ship in, and seal it off. A
nice variant would be to get the local neolithic culture to raise a
"burial mound" over it. With only a bit of help from the party (in
cutting and selecting the larger pieces of stone) they could do it. 

Heck, teach them about the arch and the dome, maybe even the geodesic
dome. Build a stone dome over the ship, built of keyed triangular
pieces of stone. Then bury that under several feet of dirt.

[1] Lake Superior is such a lake. There's a line in "Wreck of the
Edmund Fitzgerald" about "Superior never gives up her dead". That's a
reference to the fact that because of the cold water, drowning victims
don't bloat and rise to the surface (the result of normal decay
processes). Instead, they stay on the bottom and decay via different
processes. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:57:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Scarey TMLers... :^)

In mail you write:

>>          - Mark C.
>>            Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>>            EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>>            Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>>            NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>>            Front Sight First Family member #1
>>   >>
>> 
>> Ok, it's official, I'm scarred of Mark.
>
> Hmmm.  I'm not sure which is the scarey part: my vita or the comment
> about the pig! :^)
>
> Jesse <fenris@slip.net> writes:
>
>> Oh, you're just scared of him 'cause he shoots better'n you :)  Of course,
>> I've always shot better than you as well *weg*!!
>
> Well, I can't really speak to that.  I'm pretty fair with a handgun
> but my wife Lori is a match for me in both SMG and Tac. Shotgun.
>
> You know, Jesse, if you're ever up north, you *really* should stop
> by so I can play host out at the range for an afternoon.

Gee, maybe I ought to see if our little shooting group can make a road
trip *south*. 

You should see the joke photos we made up of some of the ladies in web
gear, helmets, and a vicious grin while holding their favorite
implement of destruction. 

Hmmm... come to think of it, those photos might make a nice start for
some NPC illos. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:49:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Minor Race: the Komodani

In mail you write:

>> There's a problem with the description of the males as devoted to the
>> pursuit of knowledge, and the description of the race as somewhat
>> plodding and slow to develop - unless, of course, Komodani just aren't
>> that good at science and creative thinking. Combine a traditionalistic
>> culture with individual random bouts of savagery, this might be the
> result.
>>
>> Imagines the First Contact team being introduced to the greatest
>> Komodani philosophers and scientists, and realizing these worthies
>> can't tell a hypothesis from a hypotenuse...but could shred you in a
>> moment if you annoy them. <weg>
>
> A different tack might be that the Komadani might be purists, in the sense
> that they have mastered the higher theories of mathematics, etc., they
> simply have not applied the principals to practical matters.  They might
> simply appreciate the subtle aesthetics of the sciences without getting
> their appendages 'dirty.' <g>  Cultural pressures, religious convictions, or
> their own unique perspective on The Universe (tm) could be used to explain
> this behavior.

Maybe they decided that the bigger the engineering work, the more
trouble they could be in if someone went nutso. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:14:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

Tue, 23 Mar 99 00:04:02 -0600, "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>

On 03/22/99 at 08:37 PM,  Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net> said:
>This leaves 16 points of which the next
>10 do damage to Joe and the last 6 hit the armor on the other side.
>This should blow through the back armor as well.  Frankly, I wonder
>if the dart shouldn't ricochet back into Joe doing more damage...

Most GMs would have it blow through the armor (at this rade, it can
still do 4 points of damage to something else :-).  I suppose you
could make a passive defense roll (the same roll you would use
if the bullet was trying to pentrate from the other side)
to see if it bounced (maybe applying 1/2 damge to the victim)
but that would be a pretty hard-core GM (after all, he already
blew the bullet all the way through you, what more does he
want? :-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:19:09 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:29:03 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>My "guess" is that ammonium chloride is a sufficiently good oxidizer to
>make a good combo with sugar. (The normal version of this is done with
>sodium or potassium nitrate and sugar).

Ammonia chloride is not an oxidizer.  It is a reductant (but not
much of one).  Nitrate is, in fact, a decent oxidizer (though
it is kineticially slow, which is why it doesn't react with
sugar until it gets a kick).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:21:11
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

At 01:33 PM 3/23/99 -0600, you wrote:

>ObTrav:  Is there a canon description of a holotank or
>         other such control interface/display for a
>         ship's bridge?

In the MT Referee's Manual, page 81, there is an entry on Table 5 (Special
Control Panel add-ons) for a Large Holodisplay.  2m^3 1 ton Cr. 500,000.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:13:58 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..

>From the sick, sick mind of my wife:



>"Ditzie, meet Bruno.  Bruno, Ditzie Spofulam.


Ummm... Giordano Bruno?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:28:00 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:02:50 -0600, "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
>Oh, one more thing..has anyone figured out why GURPS uses
>armor PD in addition to DR rather than just DR? It seems
>that PD is just an unnecessary complication. (YMMV)

The premise is that if the shot hits, it may skip off of
the armor, particularly if it is smooth and rounded or
sloped.  If it doesn't skip off, it need to punch through.
PD is the former, DR is the latter.

While the line between the two can be pretty blurry, the
effect is real.  I have played around with a system gives
an piece of equipment one or the other, but not both, but
that has been just for fantasy games.  For SF games it pefer
it as is (since giving PCs _some_ chance of defending helps
roleplaying).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #336
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 337



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Re: Subject: RE: Garbage
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Re: Gurps Books
Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..
Re: GURPS PD (and MT combat)
Re: GURPS PD
Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..
Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..
Re: Garbage (was Re: Rob)
Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller [Long-esque]
Re: How do you "update" HG components into QSDS?
Re: Garbage
Re: Garbage
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:33:53 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

>There is. Supposedly, PD is the ability of the armor to shrug off an attack
>and represents the amount of damage the armor *always* protects
>against even when the target is surprised, unconscious, etc.

I always thought PD was intended to represent two things:

1) armor qualities such as roundedness, slope, and the like -- without
having to figure in a n-degree slope bonus for every make and model of
helmet, breastplate, vase, automobile door, etc.

and

2) a way to make combat less predictable -- as in, "Somehow that
high-powered rifle bullet was stopped by that SCA-guy's plate armor. It
must have hit just right (from the SCA-guy's POV, that is)."

Of course, in the latter case, this is sort of handled by the random damage
roll (5d, 3d+1, 24d, and so on).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:30:07 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: Garbage

<IMTU>

IMTU, opening the door is not a problem. The lanthanum grid only needs to be
"unbroken" to enter jumpspace. Once in jumpspace, the ship is contained in
the jump bubble. If something is pushed out and away from the ship, it would
float towards the edge of the bubble where it would form a bubble of its
own. The amount of hydrogen lost by the ejected object would be
insignificant if it was small, (say body parts, small trash., etc) If
someone tried to take an air/raft out for a joy ride... they would most
likely cause a misjump. 3 possibilities would exist, the air/raft gets all
it needs to complete jump safely, the ship keeps enough to jump safely, or
just enough is taken to cause both to misjump. It may be possible for the
power plant fuel to be vented into the bubble to make up for the loss.
Either way, the air/raft would suffer misjump (if it has enough of the jump
bubble, the damage might not be so bad) I would say the risk is extreme to
attempt such a maneuver... but might be better than getting eaten by the
"alien" that was on the ship. I think I might take my chances with jump
physics rather than becoming lunch. Might be interesting trying to explain
why you are at 100 diameters in an air/raft... or atleast the oxegen
deprived body might be an interesting find... might be an interesting
adventure, to be prepairing to jump when you come across a "dead" air/raft.
Finding a dead person at the controls. Last log entry was incoherent... just
ramblings of, "devil' in 'em" If the travellers took the air/raft in and
then jumps... oh how much fun they will have when the "body" opens it's
eyes.... and the horror begins again.

</IMTU>

Anyone have any reasons why my IMTU example couldn't work? Considering that
most of what we know of jumpspace is "theory" and the ref has to decide what
the "real" theory is. I figure if it is believable... it's playable.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)


- -----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: Garbage


> Ewan Quibell writes:
> "How about dumping garbage in Jump Space ? what effect do people
> think this might have."

IMTU (where one of Ewan's characters lives, btw ;-) ), ejecting
garbage in jumpspace is not a problem. Opening a door to do it *is* a
problem, since you break the lanthanum grid and, basically, jumpspace
pushes in, with an unpredictable effect... it might swallow the
character who was trying to dump the garbage. And it will probably
affect the jump.

In principle, it could be easy to dump (jump?) garbage in jumpspace.

Just have a chamber with lanthanum grid in the inside and the
outside. Put the garbage there, open it, and let jumpspace swallow
the garbage. However, it might affect the jump in an unpredictable
way... maybe you end up 1 million km away from your destination,
maybe it takes a day more.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:17:57 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

- ----------
> From: Shawn @ Electric Stitch <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
> Date: 23. maaliskuuta 1999 3:57
> 
- ----bzzz----
> 
> >Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Gauss Pistol does 6d(2).  This is a projectile weapon, so blowthrough
> >occurs at 1x HT.  This is an AP projectile, so damage is halved after
> >applying DR.
> 
> Is the G:T book in error? On page 110 it states that Gauss Guns fire
> high-intensity dart ammunition. Armor DR is halved, but damage is not
halved
> after penetrating DR.
> 
I checked it out from G:T and G:Ultra-tech 2 and it is that way. On the
G:UT2 page 53 is the high-density dart that is effectively both AP and
impaling so the damage penetrating the armor is not halved.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:36:22 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

- ----------
> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
> Date: 23. maaliskuuta 1999 8:04
>
- ----bzzz----
 
> Frankly, I wonder
> if the dart shouldn't ricochet back into Joe doing more damage...
> 
For that you'll need to use Phoenix Command instead of GURPS. ;)

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:20:06 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

- ----------
> From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
> To: 'traveller@mpgn.com'
> Subject: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
> Date: 23. maaliskuuta 1999 18:02
>
- ----bzzz---- 
> Oh, one more thing..has anyone figured out why GURPS uses
> armor PD in addition to DR rather than just DR? It seems
> that PD is just an unnecessary complication. (YMMV)

I think it is mainly to allow someone with a heavy armor (lowering move and
therefore dodge) some real chance of dodging an attack. 

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:35:36 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Gurps Books

- ----------
> From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Gurps Books
> Date: 23. maaliskuuta 1999 20:21
> 
- ----bzzz----
>I know the GT/G: Space UWP system is differnt from CT/MT, 
> I've never used it as I refer to CT publications. But I bought behind 
> the claw to refer to....
> mike
> 
As a side note I have used the MT UWP's with GURPS for a long time before
playing Traveller or buying G:T. I've also used them with a lot of other
scifi-games, including Mechwarrior and such. 

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:52:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..

At 04:13 PM 3/23/99 EST, you wrote:
>>From the sick, sick mind of my wife:

>>"Ditzie, meet Bruno.  Bruno, Ditzie Spofulam.
>
>Ummm... Giordano Bruno?

Cartoon character running in Pyramid.  Picture Arnold S. after using
uber-steroids.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:51:24 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS PD (and MT combat)

For my MT/G:T combat conversion:

The PD could be a negative DM to the attack roll, similiar to hand-to-hand
combat where the blockers weapon acts as a negative DM.

Is the G:T weapon damage high, simply as a measure of it's penetrating
power? That the blow through rule simply limits the amount of damage a
bullet can do? I wanted to re-look at the messages... but the digest archive
seems to be offline. Was it limited by HT? If someone has HT 7, then only 7
points of damage are caused and the rest goes out the back side? It still
drops the guy... just doesn't take him to -HT?

How can this be converted to MT? Would the blow through rule effect 1 of the
stats? Still drops the guy... but isnt dead, just 1 characteristic at 0. Can
the damage values in the G:T book be kept the same? or are they too high or
too low for MT? This blow-through rule only applies to projectiles, right? A
FGMP is still going to vaperize the guy... right? (as it should)

I really should go get the Gurps Basic... I could probably answer many of
the questions myself.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)



- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Batishko <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: GURPS PD


>>There is. Supposedly, PD is the ability of the armor to shrug off an
>attack
>>and represents the amount of damage the armor *always* protects
>>against even when the target is surprised, unconscious, etc.
>
>
><snip>
>
>>Now you know why I'm confused. I'll probably just ignore any PD
>ratings
>>and just stick with an armor's DR.
>
>
>When it comes to vehicular combat, PD could probably be safely
>ignored, especially considering the fact that GURPS has rules for
>reduction of PD when using a high damage value weapon.
>
>PD improves the ability of a target to dodge (or otherwise avoid
>damage from) an attack. DR improves the ability of a target to absorb
>an attack without taking damage. This could be important if you worry
>about things like armor taking damage and such (this becomes an issue
>in vehicular combat with ablative armor).
>
>I would say that it's probably not a good idea to ignore PD in
>non-vehicular combat, because people are going to get hit more often,
>and GURPS combat is already deadly enough as is...
>
>I would also avoid comparisons to D&D, as this will probably tend to
>confuse you more. Just remember that PD helps avoid an attack and DR
>helps absorb an attack.
>
>Andrew
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:54:22 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: GURPS PD

- ----------
> From: Andrew Batishko <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: GURPS PD
> Date: 23. maaliskuuta 1999 22:06
> 
- ----bzzz----
> 
> 
> When it comes to vehicular combat, PD could probably be safely
> ignored, especially considering the fact that GURPS has rules for
> reduction of PD when using a high damage value weapon.
> 
- ----bzzz-----

With G:Vehicles 2nd ed. the PD is quite an important part of the combat
system as the effects of armor sloping on projectile glancing are better
represented by the increased PD (and therefore also dodge) than by the DR
increase.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:03:16 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..

I've got Cr50 on Ditzie.
Jesse


>>>"Ditzie, meet Bruno.  Bruno, Ditzie Spofulam.
>>
>>Ummm... Giordano Bruno?
>
>Cartoon character running in Pyramid.  Picture Arnold S. after using
>uber-steroids.
>-- 
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:19:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..

In mail you write:

> From the sick, sick mind of my wife:
>
> "Ditzie, meet Bruno.  Bruno, Ditzie Spofulam.
>
> "Have fun!"

Huh?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:26:21 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage (was Re: Rob)

Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:17:45 -0800, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>>Since the (mostly) accepted handwave is that the H2 fuel is used to maintain
>a field of N-space around the ship - one that is slowly destroyed by contact
>with J-space (hence the need to replentish it over the span of the jump)

A bit of revisionism here?  :-)

There is a vocal group that advocates this, but that isn't quite
the same thing as being "mostly accepted".

> I
>would think that dumping the garbage would cause a slight, but detectable
>warpage of the J-field.  Because it did not occur as the field was formed,
>it would not result in a major misjump (unless a catastrophic failure was
>rolled), but would result in a minor course error.

In my games (which uses the jump fuel for energy to set up the
field) the question would be, what happens when the matter your
are dumping passes through the field?  The answer is that nobody
has wanted to risk death enough to try it intentionally and nobody
has done it accidentally and come back to tell about it....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:39:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller [Long-esque]

Hi all.

	Just GMed a FUDGE Traveller session on the weekend and it went
great!  I heartily recommend the system for those who prefer a little
more improv and a little less wargame in their RPG.  It's especially good
if you've got a) Newbie players, b) Jaded oldtimers, c) Both of the above
(my situation is c). 

	The great thing about the system is that it's really fast and
smooth.  The other thing is that I've come to realize that this sort of
improvisational system actually results in more realism because you're
never hemmed in by rules that don't fit a given situation (yes, you're
always free to ignore rules, but formalized systems inately discourage
this, I think).  Of course, this only works where the GM knows more about
a given topic than his players and/or his knowledgeable players are
willing to keep their mouths shut and suspend their disbelief.

	For those already using/interested in FUDGE, I've included the
handout I gave to my players below.  You might be especially interested in
the combat system, which is my own special creation... 

(Eris, since you're the resident FUDGE expert (?) maybe you can tell me:
Do I have to put the legal stuff from FUDGE on this?  I've done so here
just to be safe, but maybe I'm being neurotic?)


ONE PAGE FUDGE

Everything in FUDGE is rated on a scale using seven words:

Superb    Great     Good      Fair      Mediocre     Poor      Pathetic


TASKS

When a character tries to do something, you take one of his attributes as
the base rating for the task.  For instance, a character might have "Good
intelligence", so this would be his/her basic level for figuring out
puzzles, fixing things and so on (unless they have a more specific skill
such as Puzzle Solving or Fixing Stuff).  

To figure out exactly how well a character does at a given task, roll four
"FUDGE dice".  These are ordinary six-sided dice painted red on two sides,
green on two sides and white on two sides.  Every green side that comes up
raises the character up a rating.  Every red side that comes up knocks
him/her down a rating. White sides have no effect and are "neutral". So a
character with "Good intelligence" rolling two green and two whites would
have a result of Superb for that task (up two from Good).  If the same
character rolled two whites, a green and a red, the latter two would
cancel out and he would end up with his default Good result. 


CHARACTER CREATION

This is very free-form and simple.  First, write up a short paragraph
describing the character in plain english.  Then just write down words
representing skills, attributes, abilities, etc. and give each a rating
word.  Good things to include are some measure of strength, toughness,
dexterity, and intelligence.  Other than that, just pick 'em as you see
'em.  

Example Character:

Bob "Grease Monkey" Jovovich

Bob is a consumate techie.  He works as an engineer on a starship and
always seems to have his head in some machine.  If not, then he's reading
"Engineer's Monthly" or going over the specs for something.  Typically he
dresses in coveralls and an "INS Devereaux" cap.  The latter is a souvenir
from his days in the Imperial Naval Service where he learned his trade.
[This description part can be as long or as short as you like, I'm keeping
this one short but I could go on to describe appearance, personality,
political beliefs, philosophy of life or whatever else.]

Attributes:

Strength:  Good  (He is a burly guy, but not really big)
Health:    Fair  (Bob is of average physical fitness)
Dexterity: Good  (Works a lot with his hands)
Intellect: Great (A very smart guy, sub-genius, knows alot about stuff)


Skills:

Repair:     Superb  (Bob can fix ANYTHING, he's a mechanical genius)
Engineer:   Great   (He really knows the ins and outs of starships)
Space Suit: Good    (Bob has spent a lot of time in low gravity/space)
Rifle:      Fair    (In the Navy, Bob was taught to fight)
Pistol:     Fair
Brawling:   Fair
Botany:     Mediocre (He has a hobby of raising exotic plants)
[This is a short list, yours can be much longer]


Special Stuff:

Drinking:   Pathetic  (Bob has a thimble gut and gets drunk on one beer)
Coolness:   Good (Bob is pretty unflappable)


Note that there's nothing keeping you from just writing Superb beside
everything and creating a god-like character, but that's not the point
(and the GM won't let you do it anyway, which is really the only check on
powergaming in any RPG, so...). 


COMBAT

Here's my system for fudge combat.  All characters must have defined
weapon skills and some sort of "Damage Capacity" attribute, which I call
Health below.  Weapons have a damage rating, and maybe some accuracy
bonuses or penalties (e.g., shotgun +1, autoweapons+2).  Armor has a
rating as well, which is modified by weapon type as necessary. 

1. Initiative:  Roll with your dex/combat reflexes/whatever.  Highest roll
goes first.

2. To Hit (Ranged): GM assigns a minimum roll to hit based on range,
target size, target movement, etc.  Roll with weapon skill to exceed this
minimum.

3. To Hit (Melee): Attacker and defender both roll.  If attacker rolls
higher than defender, he hits.

4. Damage:  Roll weapon's damage rating.  Roll target's armor rating
(=Pathetic if no armor).  The number of levels by which the damage roll
beats the armor roll is the number of points of damage done.  The victim's
Health is reduced by this number.

5. (Optional) Damage Effects:  Roll with present Health rating:
>Mediocre: No effects.
Mediocre: Stunned. -1 to all actions next round.
Poor: Stunned+Roll again for Poor+ to avoid falling (lose a turn).
Pathetic: Fall down (lose a turn)+Roll again for Pathetic+ to avoid KO.
<Pathetic: Knocked out+Roll again for Pathetic+ to avoid death.

There's a lot of rolls, but since there's very little figuring to do, it
works out okay.  You can skip step 5 and just say that when health goes
below Pathetic, you're unconscious and "eventually dead" without medical
aid.


Okay, that's all there is to it.  Any comments or thoughts?

Charles.

<Legal stuff>
ABOUT FUDGE
FUDGE is a role-playing game written by Steffan O'Sullivan, with
extensive input from the Usenet community of rec.games.design.  The
basic rules of FUDGE are available on the internet via anonymous ftp
at ftp.csua.berkeley.edu, and in book form or on disk from Grey Ghost
Games, P.O. Box 838, Randolph, MA 02368.  They may be used with any
gaming genre.  While an individual work derived from FUDGE may specify
certain attributes and skills, many more are possible with FUDGE.
Every Game Master using FUDGE is encouraged to add or ignore any
character traits.  Anyone who wishes to distribute such material for
free may do so - merely include this ABOUT FUDGE notice and disclaimer
(complete with FUDGE copyright notice).  If you wish to charge a fee
for such material, other than as an article in a magazine or other
periodical, you must first obtain a royalty-free license from the
author of FUDGE, Steffan O'Sullivan, P.O. Box 465, Plymouth, NH 03264.


DISCLAIMER
The preceeding materials based on FUDGE, entitled ONE PAGE FUDGE,
are created by Charles Collin and made available by Charles Collin, and
are not authorized or endorsed in any way by Steffan O'Sullivan or any
publisher of other FUDGE materials.  Neither Steffan O'Sullivan or any
publisher of other FUDGE material is in any way responsible for the
content of these materials.  Original FUDGE materials (c) Copyright
992-1995 Steffan O'Sullivan, All Rights Reserved.

FUDGE URL:  http://members.aol.com/ghostgames/fudge.html
</Legal Stuff>

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:45:11 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: How do you "update" HG components into QSDS?

Rob Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> Sethkimmel@aol.com asks:
> >washi@metronet.com writes:
> >
> ><< How 'bout updating HG components to QSDS format?
> > >>
> >
> >How do you do this?
> 
> I'm thinking of SWAGs; that is, approximation, interpolation,
> extrapolation, and wild guesswork.
> 
I look at the function the ship was designed to perform in one rules
set, and design a ship with a similar function in the other.  The things
I keep constant are size, TL, configuration (that's why I have all those
Wedge configuration T4 ships), jump capacity, and (approximately)
normal-space acceleration.  Everything else is negotiable. 

> -Rob

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:52:53 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Garbage

>Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:17:45 -0800, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>>>Since the (mostly) accepted handwave is that the H2 fuel is used to
maintain
>>a field of N-space around the ship - one that is slowly destroyed by
contact
>>with J-space (hence the need to replentish it over the span of the jump)
>
>A bit of revisionism here?  :-)

>

Revisionism?  Well...

I've bought into the handwave - it fits my jump model better than anything
else I've seen.

>
>There is a vocal group that advocates this, but that isn't quite
>the same thing as being "mostly accepted".


granted.  apologies offered where necessary.

>
>> I
>>would think that dumping the garbage would cause a slight, but detectable
>>warpage of the J-field.  Because it did not occur as the field was formed,
>>it would not result in a major misjump (unless a catastrophic failure was
>>rolled), but would result in a minor course error.
>
>In my games (which uses the jump fuel for energy to set up the
>field) the question would be, what happens when the matter your
>are dumping passes through the field?  The answer is that nobody
>has wanted to risk death enough to try it intentionally and nobody
>has done it accidentally and come back to tell about it....


As I said, 'minor' is a relative term.  Slowly, but surely, I am becoming
convinced that (IMTU anyway) a default Jump takes you to the stellar limit,
not the planetary one.  So a minor course deviation is measured against the
stellar system, not the planetary one.

As an aside, before I rolled the campaign back to M:0, I had a group of PCs
running around in a lab ship.  The PC who got administrative control of the
ship (i.e. rolled it as a mustering out benny) had to share it with two
other professors, one of which was a Jump Space Theorist.  He had this great
Vacc Suit that he had his grad students construct.  It would *supposedly*
tie into the ship's NavComp and patch into the Lanthanum grid.  It was
supposed to allow a person to be able to spacewalk in J-space...and he was
convinced that the failures of the previous suits were due to J-spaces
unique interference with robotic systems.

As far as I know, he is still trying to get some poor grad student into that
suit...

It was a lot of fun presenting the PC captain with the experiment plans for
the next jump and watch him try and figure out what it would do to the ship,
and it made the period spent in Jump at least as adventurous as the period
on the planet!

douglas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:54:42 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Garbage

David P. Summers and Douglas Glatz wrote:

> >Since the (mostly) accepted handwave is...
> 
> There is a vocal group that advocates this, but that isn't quite
> the same thing as being "mostly accepted".


"FIGHT! FIGHT!  Two credits on the bigger fellow!"

:)  -Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:00:14 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

Two of the items were "ammonia" and "disinfectant."  If the disinfectant
is iodine-based, you can make a reasonably powerful explosive (nitrogen
tri-iodide).  You had best be careful, though; once it dries, nitrogen
tri-iodide will blow up if you look at it wrong.  Don't ask me how I
know this.... >;-)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #337
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 338



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
Re: Max Acceleration
Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..
Re: Brown Bess vs BD (was: Re: Ship Classes)
Re: T4 Question
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Re: Max Acceleration / High Guard
Re: Gonzu Minor Race?
Re: Scarey TMLers... :^)
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Re: Garbage
Re: GURPS PD (and MT combat)
Re: GURPS PD
Re: GURPS PD (and MT combat)
Re: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al
Re: Female TMLers
My Wife's Yacht
Re: GURPS PD
Re: Mustering Out Bennies
Re: Garbage
Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:12:53 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I haven't seen an answer to this one so I'll do it...
>
> On 03/22/99 at 01:35 AM,  "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com> said:
>
> >Ok, I'm in a quandary.  Looking at the COACC rules, it seems that
> >using the good ole' Fusion Rocket, I can easily design small craft
> >with (maintainable) accelerations of over (way, way over...) 6G.
>
> Ok, so far.
>
> >What's up?  I assume that maybe inertial compensators are limited to
> >6G, thus preventing manned craft from exceeding the 6G barrier, but
> >what's to stop building a ship-killer missile?

Sorry I missed the earlier part of this thread, but just wanted to pipe
in
here with my view that the G ratings of most Traveller ships are waaay
to low.  IMTU, if you're ship can't withstand 10Gs for 10 minutes,
it doesn't get certified.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:19:45 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Max Acceleration

Walter Smith wrote:

> I'm wondering what the ramifications of such a weapon would be in terms
> of fleet design philosophies.
>
> Take HG, add a weapon that will kill a very large or low-agility target almost
> every time. The only defenses against it are high agility, or the ability to
> keep the firing unit from getting into range. Add that this weapon can be
> fired from a very small ship.
>
> We have the WW2 air-dropped torpedo from hell, with the addition that
> capital ships can use them on each other. Space combat becomes a lot
> shorter, and a lot deadlier. The ships get tiny - why build a 5000tn
> spinal mount when you can wax an enemy battlecruiser with a 100tn
> missile bay? Heck, a 30tn fighter might be big enough.
>
> Quite a difference.

Did you read Reality Dysfunction books?  Antimatter powered missiles
pulling 30Gs continuously.  They were small, with explosive warheads
and called Wasps.  You would launch a swarm of them to attack.
The defender would launch his own to attack the incoming ones.
They were highly illegal, and even the military didn't use them.

Because Antimatter powered them, it was a controlled substance.
Mere possession was a crime.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:15:07 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Scary GURPS: Traveller thought..

Jesse DeGraff posted:
>
>I've got Cr50 on Ditzie.
>Jesse
>
>
>>>>"Ditzie, meet Bruno.  Bruno, Ditzie Spofulam.
>>>
>>>Ummm... Giordano Bruno?
>>
>>Cartoon character running in Pyramid.  Picture Arnold S. after using
>>uber-steroids.

100 quatloos on the newcomer!

oh..

Sorry.

It's been a long day.

(BTW, Jesse, *awesome* scouts! Just in case no one's
told you....)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:19:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Brown Bess vs BD (was: Re: Ship Classes)

In mail you write:

>>Unless said guerilla pushes the paint blinded trooper off a cliff;
>>how's a Brown Bess going to crack open battledress?
>
> From the Digest battledress article: the armour "has a few dangerously weak
> spots" such as the visor which is only the equivalent of cloth.
>
> Basically, you need a pinpoint shot to penetrate the armour. Probably your
> average joe could't do it, but if you were facing Daniel Day-Lewis* you
> would be in trouble.
>
> * (or at least his "Last of the Moccasins" character. Or that other famous
> Daniel, "Boone". Or the guy from "Tangos With Dingos". Etc, etc.)

I'd go with "Quigley Down Under"... :-)

It also helps to realize that weapons such as the Brown Bess and the
Kentucky long rifle were considerably "over powered" by modern
standards. They shot *high* mass, medium velocity rounds. They'd
actually be *more* likely to pentrate than more recent military rounds.


Anybody have to data handy to compare muzzle energy of the Brown Bess
and modern weapons?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:27:00 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Question

SD Mooney wrote:

> "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
>
> >What was Book F ?
>
> The unreleased 'Nobles'.

Who were the writers of this one?  They should be able to
release/sell the material without copyright problems.

Steve Jackson Games is looking for one.
http://www.sjgames.com/general/author/wish.html

I'd be more than willing to assist converting what material has
been done into Gurps format.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:15:44 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

> >This Green Beret argument does bring up a traveller question for me.
> >Are there any canon sources for Imperial Black Ops.  How about in home
> >brewed campaigns.  I'm formulating a campaign employing Imperial Special
> >Forces and just wanted to see how others handled it.

IMTU, there are regular reminders of Lucan's Black War and Black Ops, even if
just in the form of Virus.  :-)  Also the other conventional things (ships of
the black war, biowarfare weapons, etc).  

One of the Special/Black Ops forces from the pre-Rebellion 3I IMTU, is a
special breed of commando.  The rumors go as follows:  Enhanced by geneering
and cybernetics, as well as access to TL-16 hardware and to geneered and
trained for psionics, these were very well trained and very deadly,
accountable directly to the Iridium Throne, though their own chain of command.
Access, through channels that could sometimes be circumvented in extreme
measures, was also possible to assets and of the IN, IMC, and IISS as well as
the various intelligence apparatuses of the 3I.  There were 8 seperate
"forces," the definition, scope and size of which was very carefully held
secret.  Designations of these forces (or the parent organizations) were
letters of the Greek alphabet (Alpha Force, Beta Force, Gamma Force, etc etc
to Theta Force).  

Particular exploits of any single force have likewise been unrevealed, though
an RCES-discovered secret INI memorandum theorized each force was a platoon
sized unit and that 6 of the 8 Forces deployed in coordinated actions in the
Fifth Frontier War.  Also hypothesized was an ordinary dispersion of 1 Force
per Domain with the 1 serving either as personal protection for the Emperor
and his family or as a reaction force to be deployed to a trouble area or for
special missions desired by the Emperor (though of course, any of them could
be pulled from their Domain).

Activites during the Rebellion are unknown except for a confused mention of
'Eta Forces' by a Vermene intelligence cache discovered by the RCN in late
1202 and also by revelations by Ililek Kuligaan that the IHD had cracked the
communications cipher of a unit calling itself "ISF [Imperial Special Forces]
Theta," but had failed to identify or discover anything more substantial.

More detail, I'll tell anyone interested, privately, as I believe one or more
of the players in my upcoming campaigns may be lurking.  None of the above is
anything beyond the detailed information available at the local office of the
Reformation Coalition Intelligence Service.

> Really Black Ops would probabvly be carried out by the IISS.  Scouts are
> everywhere, and tend to be the personality types that can handle things
> like introducing tailored virii to destroy a zhodani world's grain crop.

I think it'd be more appropriate to have an intelligence unknowingly dispersed
in (or just making use of) IISS assets, as it doesn't compromise the IISS, nor
it's mission, itself.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:15:48 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Max Acceleration / High Guard

> This reflects nicely the implications of going too close to a laser-armed
> ship and being subject to near auto hits in near-ROF quantities (!); the
best
> way of handling this would be akin to Star Cruiser/2300 AD's overrun rules -
> upon entering an enemy hex (or vice versa) all beams involved get to resolve
> an additional combat phase at normal hit opportunities, without losing their
> normal extended range combat phase later in the turn sequence.

Very Interesting.  I'm gonna have to get Star Cruiser one of these days... 

Is there a calculation where I can plug in a lasers stats and the targets
acceleration and find out the range at which automatic hits are guaranteed?
Probable?  This could also show exactly how close a missile can get...  Also
ship to ship ramming.  PD should be able to scrub a missile, but a kamikaze is
another ball of wax... ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:15:46 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gonzu Minor Race?

> I know that the Planet III software was maid avalable as freeware, but dose
> anyone have a URL to it's location, or a copy I could have.

IIRC, its:

ftp://ftp.davtechsys.com

So I take it noone knows anything bout em.  Not mentioned in Challenge, TD,
MTJ, etc?  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:32:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Scarey TMLers... :^)

Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:

> Gee, maybe I ought to see if our little shooting group can make a road
> trip *south*. 

Yes, you should.  Especially considering that you're "just up the
interstate a ways" from me.  BTW, our club has a *HUGE* full-auto
shoot scheduled for the weekend of May 15-16.  It's the biggest
annual full-auto event on the west coast and, of course, the general
public is invited to come, watch, and even participate!!

> You should see the joke photos we made up of some of the ladies in web
> gear, helmets, and a vicious grin while holding their favorite
> implement of destruction. 
> 
> Hmmm... come to think of it, those photos might make a nice start for
> some NPC illos. :-)

Put 'em on a web-site!  Let's see 'em! :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:34:54 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>Hi There!
>>
>>This Green Beret argument does bring up a traveller question for me.
>>Are there any canon sources for Imperial Black Ops.  How about in home
>>brewed campaigns.  I'm formulating a campaign employing Imperial Special
>>Forces and just wanted to see how others handled it.

>Really Black Ops would probably be carried out by the IISS.  Scouts are
>everywhere, and tend to be the personality types that can handle things
>like introducing tailored virii to destroy a zhodani world's grain crop.


I believe S-3, the IISS Special Security Service might have some duties
along this line. Technically they perform Scout extractions from hazardous
worlds and recapture prohibited technologies on low tech worlds.  I would
assume that this would include prior First and Second Imperium worlds not
yet re-absorbed into the Third Imperium in most Milieus.

I expect that INI, Imperial Naval Intelligence also has field agents in
neighboring confeds.  They would probably concentrate on military
intelligence.

The Sylean Rangers (at least IMTU) perform a role more like the Navy Seals
and Delta Force. For example: A RECON squad might go in to get Humit (Human
Intelligence) Assets out or take a weather control station.  An ASSAULT
squad might be inserted to respond to a terrorist group that was holding an
Imperial noble hostage.


All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

I.T.C.

Terry C

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:46:39 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Garbage

In the MT Starship Operators Manual the Old Timer talks about what happens
to those who come in contact
with a jump field.
Insanity, and death. either way not pretty.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:42:43 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS PD (and MT combat)

Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:51:24 -0800, "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>

>The PD could be a negative DM to the attack roll, similiar to hand-to-hand
>combat where the blockers weapon acts as a negative DM.

This has been suggested as a house rule.  I don't use it
myself....

>Is the G:T weapon damage high, simply as a measure of it's penetrating
>power?

High damage means "high damage".  Power to damage is, to a first
aproximation, also power to punch through armor. Weapons that are
designed to be expecially pentrating (with respect to other weapons
that do similar damage) get a modifier to DR.

>That the blow through rule simply limits the amount of damage a
>bullet can do?

Yes.  The bullet literally "blows through you" and out the otherside.
The amount a damage you take by getting a reasonable sized hole
punched through does really depend on how much energy the bullet
had left when it was done....

>Was it limited by HT? If someone has HT 7, then only 7
>points of damage are caused and the rest goes out the back side? It still
>drops the guy... just doesn't take him to -HT?

Right.  Unless it hits the vitals (in which case it is limited
by 3xHT) or the Brain (I don't remember if it is 4xHT or if
there is no blowthrough limimt for the brain).  In which a shot
might take him to -2xHT or -3xHT.

>How can this be converted to MT? Would the blow through rule effect 1 of the
>stats? Still drops the guy... but isnt dead, just 1 characteristic at 0

Don't know.  The premise of the limit is that if you stick a hole
through a guy and not hit a vital organ, he isn't likely to drop
dead one the spot.  He is likely to loose consciousness and may
bleed to death.  If you hit him in a vital organ, he may well
be likely to die.

>This blow-through rule only applies to projectiles, right? A
>FGMP is still going to vaperize the guy... right? (as it should)

No.  It applies to any weapon that will punch through you like
that (a spear thrust has blow through, an axe doesn't). However,
I don't know if one expects a FGMP to punch a hole through
you or to blow the front off of you (maybe do both?  :-).  I
don't have my book in front of me....

>I really should go get the Gurps Basic... I could probably answer many of
>the questions myself.

If you want an "official" answer...  :-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:45:07 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS PD

Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:54:22 +0200,  <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>

>With G:Vehicles 2nd ed. the PD is quite an important part of the combat
>system as the effects of armor sloping on projectile glancing are better
>represented by the increased PD (and therefore also dodge) than by the DR
>increase.

I think the poster was refering to idea that, since vehicles tend
to have big weapons, they tend to ignore PD under the PD reduction
rule.  It might be said that PD isn't important for moderate to
large sized vehicles....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:54:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS PD (and MT combat)

David P. Summers writes:

> >This blow-through rule only applies to projectiles, right? A
> >FGMP is still going to vaperize the guy... right? (as it should)
> 
> No.  It applies to any weapon that will punch through you like
> that (a spear thrust has blow through, an axe doesn't). However,
> I don't know if one expects a FGMP to punch a hole through
> you or to blow the front off of you (maybe do both?  :-).  I
> don't have my book in front of me....

An FGMP does Exp damage, which does not blow through.  As such, the minimum
damage for an FGMP (160 damage) instakills any human.

However, a laser (doing Imp damage) can blow through, though I think they blow
through at 2xHT instead of 1xHT.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:45:00 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gun-armed Capital Ships in M:AD2K, et al

In a message dated 3/22/99 11:26:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jcarlino@home.com writes:

<< 
 Traveller fighters are much cheaper than capital ships, but they have no
 weapon that can really wax an armored battlerider or cruiser.
  >>
Actually, if you use T4 combat rules, every hit has some small chance for a
"ship explodes" result.   So enough fighters blasting away at a captial ship
might indeed blow it up.   Multiple small hits will also wear down armor
eventually and scrub off turret weapons and other devices.   So in T4 at least
fighters are not completely insignificant.   No, they won't routinely sink
capital ships in one hit--but hell why would anyone build a captial ship if
that were the case (as no one does today).

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:47:02 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Female TMLers

Nikki,

	That wasn't a typical TML lister that was CLIF!    May he smoke in peace.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:53:28 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: My Wife's Yacht

In our M:1100 game, my main character's wife (Soc: C) came into a truly
obscene amount of money, and commissioned the following yacht (design by
AuricTech Shipyards):

Electra II-class Yacht

Tons: 1000 std (SL Needle Hypersonic) 
Dimensions: 174.9 m x 17.6 m x 17.6 m
Volume: 14000 m3
Cargo: 7 std (1 hatches, Hdl: 1 x 5 t) 
Mass (L/C): 8569 t / 8071 t 
Maintenance Points: 280
Passengers High/Med: 14/0 
Crew: 9 / 18 
Frozen Watch: 0
Cost: 996.526 MCr 
Tech Level: 13
Size: 9 

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, High automation. 3 xFibComp (CM: 0.3 CP: 3.33).
Terrain following sensors (TF:510, NOE:170). Bridge.
Communications: 2 x Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 2 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (13.5 [16 mkm], 0.01 MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5 mkm] LP, 1.25
MW). 1 xLIDAR (14.5 [500 kkm], 0.6 MW).
Survey/Science: None
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (11, .39 MW). 
1xPas. Jammer (14, .16 MW).
Signatures: Vis:-.5, IR: -.5 (-1 at 951 MW, -1 at 109 MW), Act:-.5,
Neu:-1, Grav:1

Performance 
4 Jump (100 std/pc fuel) 
3 / 3.1 Maneuver (Thruster: 632 MW)
1 / 1 Contra-grav (139 MW)
3916 kph/4065 kph Atmosphere Maximum 
2971 kph/3049 kph Atmosphere Cruise 
2 Power (Fusion: 1088 MW,1yr) 
0 Battery
407.8 Fuel (Scoop:5 /Purif:39 hrs, 4 MW) 
0/32/0/8 Accomodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low Berth) 
640 Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Excellent Food/Storage) 
3 G-Comp 
2 Sandcasters (AV: 66 / Cans: 27)
10 [29] Armor, 20 Structure 

Weapons (300,000km range bands) 
1 x 61-Mj Laser Turret (+4) 1/2-2-2-2 [1,400/20-20-20-20] 400 rof

Features
10 x Airlock 
0x Decontamination Airlock 
1 x  Sickbay (8std ea.) 
1x Ship's locker (.5 std ea.) 
1 x Armory (1.14 std ea.) 
1 x Gym (2.5 std ea.)
1 x Full Galley (Cap: 32 each) 


Small Craft
1 x Minimal Hangar (4 std, 1 hatch) 
1 x Spacious Hangar (30 std, 1 hatch)



Backups 
Drives: None 
Screens: None
Communications: None 
Sensors: None
ECM: None 
Power & Fuel: None 


Crew Details 2 x Maneuver. 5 x Engineering. 2 x Gunnery. 2 x Screen. 2 x
Flight. 2 x Command. 2 x Steward . 1 x Medical.



- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:58:26 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS PD

>With G:Vehicles 2nd ed. the PD is quite an important part of the combat
>system as the effects of armor sloping on projectile glancing are better
>represented by the increased PD (and therefore also dodge) than by the DR
>increase.

This is also very consistent with RL.  One of the early discoveries in tank
designs was that sloped armor is _much_ more effective then unsloped.  An
example using GURPS:

A veteran tank driver, with a skill of 16 has a basic dodge of 4.  This
means he needs to roll 4 or less on 3d6 to avoid a blow, thus, a tank will
suffer damage from a successful hit 98.2% of the time.  Adding sloped armor
to this, raises the dodge to 10, thus dropping the probability of damage to
only 50%.  
	
This is an _integral_ part of the GURPS combat system, and I strongly
suggest that it be used if you plan on using the rest of the GURPS system.
If you choose not to use it, you may want to significantly raise the DR of
all available armors, otherwise, the weapon-armor balance will suffer greatly.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:05:04 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies

>Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:58:50 EST
>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies
>In a message dated 3/22/99 6:32:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, efritz@GLJA.com
>writes:
><< 
> You're right. IMTU, the military doesn't allow "military weapons" to be
> mustering out benefits. The exact definition of that term is open to debate,
> naturally. I generally translate it to mean "reasonable weapon".
>  >>
>        As a rule of thumb, I've always allowed weapons roughly equivalent 
>to Book 1
>(CT weapons) as mustering out weapons:   rifles, laser rifles, auto rifles
>yes,  plasma and fusion guns no.  I generally allow ACR's to Army and Marine
>characters since they aren't too different from autorifles.
>                        Dave Nelson
	I generally am inclined to let them have the weapons.  I won't let them
use/carry them without getting in lots of trouble.  I think they make a
wonderful temptation and overall great plot hook as they try to hang onto
this white elephant they can't carry anywhere.  My theory on weapons
acquired while mustering out is they are responsible for them.  Don't get
them stolen.  Don't do anything stupid with them. OR ELSE! <g>

								Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:08:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Douglas Glatz writes:

>Since the (mostly) accepted handwave is that the H2 fuel is used to maintain
>a field of N-space around the ship - one that is slowly destroyed by contact
>with J-space (hence the need to replenish it over the span of the jump),

I'm at a loss to understand that statement, since one of the problems with
jump drive fuel consumption is that ALL the jump fuel is used up BEFORE the
ship enters jump space.

[My own explanation is that jump space is denser than (outer) real space,
and that it is therefore impossible to cross the dimensional interface
without 'softening it up' first (Compare it to the effect of a high-speed
vehicle trying to dive into water; at sufficiently high velocities the
water is as rigid as steel). All the H2 is used to create a small spot in
jumpspace where a ship can slip into the dimension. Once inside jump space
there's no problem (the water analogy applies here too) and no more
hydrogen is necessesary. The reason why you need more H2 to enter higher
jumpspace dimensions is that they are denser and need more hydrogen to
create a 'soft spot'. This also explain why you can't jump without H2 even
if your capacitors are fully charged.]


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:52:21 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

In a message dated 3/23/99 12:22:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fides3@earthlink.net writes:

<< 
 Firstly, let me state that IRIS has never conducted covert operations
 against citizens of the Third Imperium and its member states. Our
 charter <DOC I> expressly forbids such actions and the 'constitution' of
 the Imperium has through tradition and precedence of law eliminated such
 actions from the perview of all members of the Imperial Intelligence
 Community, except in times of war. Such actions are only taken on the
 advise and consent of the Moot.  >>


	See, I told you there was no such thing as "Black Ops" and here's proof rigth
from the horse's mouth.  I mean if IRIS doesn't do it or know about it, who
would?

				The Old Marquis

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #338
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 339



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate
Re: Homestead Act
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Sort of OT: Thanks for Visiting!
Re: Garbage
Re: Re: Imperial interdiction policies
Re: Clif
M:E21  How to colonize Prometheus
Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue
Re: M:E21 Colony Ships
Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
The Burrito File - Pilots
Re: Scarey TMLers... :^)
Re: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts
Blind Transmission
My Wife's Yacht (Corrected Version)
Re: Gurps Books
Re: Max Acceleration
Re: Red Dwarf (was: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav)
Re: HG Variant
Re: Clif
Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller [Long-esque]
Re: Red Dwarf (was: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:59:41 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

In a message dated 3/23/99 2:26:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, david.d.jaques-
watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

<< 
 So can you tell me, IYTU does "IRIS" exists or not?
  >>

	IMTU they were actually the faction called "The brotherhood of Varian"  in
the Rebellion Sourcebook who invented the pseudonymn of "IRIS" as an attempt
to discredit Lucan and other "dishonorbale" contenders.

		Dave nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:03:14 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Homestead Act

In a message dated 3/23/99 5:21:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pnewman@alaska.net writes:

<< 
 Are you sure that the Homestead act required occupancy?   >>

	It did in its initial version in the 1800's, perhaps it was modified later, I
don't know for sure.   
		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:15:17 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

At 02:38 PM 3/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
>TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
>> > Didn't TNE use a DR system? I've only seen the cover... so I know almost
>> > nothing about TNE.
>
><TNE example snipped>
>
>GURPS example:
>Gauss Pistol does 6d(2).  This is a projectile weapon, so blowthrough
occurs at
>1x HT.  This is an AP projectile, so damage is halved after applying DR.  The
>order in which the halving and the blowthrough occur is not entirely clear,
>arguments can be made both ways.
Actually, I believe that the official ruling on the matter is that
blowthrough is always the last thing you look at, after all other damage
modifiers (including DR, the doubling for an impaling weapon, or the
halving for an AP weapon)

>If blowthrough occurs first, damage is almost always 5.  Roughly a 50% chance
>that Joe is knocked down; if he isn't, 50% chance he's stunned.  Zero
chance of
>direct lethality, though if untreated he has a small chance of bleeding to
>death.
>If blowthrough occurs second, there's about a 60% chance of doing 10 points,
>which will on average render Joe unconscious in about 2 seconds (and have
>effects as above); otherwise effects are basically as above.  There is a
>moderate chance of bleeding to death.
>
>If the shot was in the brain, average damage is 40, Joe makes 5 death checks
>and has about a 97% chance of dying, and is automatically unconscious;
assuming
>he survives, bleeding to death is likely.
There is _no_ blowthrough for the damage to the brain (see the GURPS FAQ at
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/#BS-04)
Thus, average damage is 84, resulting in instant death.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:24:04 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Sort of OT: Thanks for Visiting!

I just wanted to let y'all know:  the Traveller page of my Web site is
now the second-most-visited page on my site, and looks to become the
most-visited page soon.  Based on the numbers, I would figure that you
come for the ship designs, and stay to visit my wargaming, military, and
weird sites.

I appreciate the support!  :-)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:27:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Garbage

shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net> writes:

>In the MT Starship Operators Manual the Old Timer talks about what happens
>to those who come in contact with a jump field.
>Insanity, and death. either way not pretty.

You're right. It's hard enough to deal with dead people, but when they're
also insane there's just no reasoning with them.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
                "I am a jelly doughnut."
                        J.F. Kennedy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:16:52 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Re: Imperial interdiction policies

In TML 334 "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote,

>At 10:52 AM 3/23/99 EST, you wrote:
>
>>Gee; it's just like McDonalds and Mickey Mouse sprouting up all over the
>>world. What does the 3I do when you get nationalist equivelents of the
>>French freaking over the pollution of their culture?
>
>Ignore them, and keep selling to the kids.
>

Use the British option, invent Burger King. While the toys arn't always as
good you can taste the meat, the buns (IIRC)arn't suger laced and the
patties are flame grilled not hot plate cooked (less dietary fat per
burger).


Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:16:58 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Clif

In TML  Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>

<snip>
<<
Redleg, this is X-Ray six-six. Fire mission. Grid xxxxxx-yyyyyy. Four
rounds HE superquick, four rounds HE delayed. TOT. Over.

ObTrav: This is probably overkill to most groups of PCs - unless they
happen to be in a starship or a tank at the time.
>>

you cruel nasty person. (huh!)
here Clif-ie wear this armoured metal weve jacket, it's made of all sorts
of differwent metals to help avoid detection. [metals like copper,
aluminium and magnesuim]

SFX run, run, run.

' Redleg, this is Foxtrot ywo-seven. Adjust Fire mission Grid
xxxxxx-yyyyyy. load Air burst WP. Fire for effect. Over. '


Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:12:06 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: M:E21  How to colonize Prometheus

Let me play with the numbers, too.

Basic assumption 1: you can squeeze 2.5 people per ton into 1000+ dton ships.
Basic assumption 2: a ship can make 10 round trips per year.
Goal: move at least 60 million people in 11 years.

Ships    People moved   6 million people =
         per year       how many ships?
1000t     25,000        240
2000t     50,000        120
3000t     75,000         80
4000t    100,000         60
5000t    125,000         48
6000t    150,000         40
7000t    175,000         34
8000t    200,000         30
9000t    225,000         27
10000t   250,000         24
20000t   500,000         12

So I think your solution may be in 3000t and 4000t
ships, which give you the most bang for your buck.

40 or 50 of these two types, making more or less
regular runs for 10 years, will get you over 60
million people on Prometheus.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:13:35 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: VRML 3D Deckplans continue

Joe,

That looks great!  Would you mind if I used it for a 2D display for
my VRML world?  You would be credited in the lower right hand corner
of the display.  I would either put the credits in text or if you have
a logo you'd prefer I would use that.  For an example see:

http://www.3rd-imperium.com/ShipYards/controlPanel_01.wrl

Thanks,
Kristian

Joe Pettit wrote:

> I did this:
> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/1056/berne.gif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:48:59 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: M:E21 Colony Ships

In a message dated 3/23/99 1:36:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
washi@metronet.com writes:

<< Make 4 round trips a year and you have 100,000 people >>

But if you use T4 rules, then 8,000 of those or so will end up dead.  That's
pretty steep.  Perhaps you can jam people into a ship in an uncomfortable
fashion and avoid cold sleep, as CoDominium  Bureau of Relocation does in
Jerry Pournelle's Falkenberg's Legion series.   The description of
"involuntary colonist" transport is unpleasant, but sounds better than a 1 in
12 chance of death.

		Dave Nelson
(unfortunately my Fast Drug solution doesn't work either since it's a TL 11
invention)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:53:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

	I think the objections to military weapons as mustering out benefits is a
little misplaced.   We have to remember that the "Imperium"  has pretty loose
controls over weapon possesion, but that their territory consists of only the
starports, and deep space.   So letting a Marine carry a gauss rifle is no big
deal, when ships are flying about with laser cannon.   When mercaries and
others are wandering about with military weapons why should the Imperium care
if some trusted veterans have surpluss weapons in private hands.  Getting hold
of a weapon doesn't give a character the right to carry it on memeber world
territory either.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:36:30 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: The Burrito File - Pilots

Douglas McFee, age 40
Scraggly red hair, freckled, youthful-looking.  Irish brogue.
Played by: Any Irish stereotype
Likes home-brewed alcohol. Has a good ear for finding cargo shipments. Knows how to
pilot a ship's boat. Owns a ramshackle dive on the outskirts of startown.  He
doesn't want it anymore because protection fees are skyrocketing, but he also can't
dig himself out of debt.  Most likely he will just disappear on the next ship bound
to leave the system.


Lucas Reynard, age 33
Straight red hair, serious expression.
Played by: Gerard of Amber
Knows a lot of local lore. He was training to be a prospector. He has Cr500,000 in
the bank. This money is ill-gotten, from a scam pulled long ago.  He has laid low
for the past 5 years, waiting patiently for another prime chance to get more money
from unsuspecting freighters.



Sir Kashiin Renner, age 38
Short flax hair; cocky grin.
Played by: ST:Voyager's pilot, or Renner from _Mote_
A cocky ex-Navy boy, Renner is a great pilot and knows it.  He also thinks he's a
pretty good captain as well, and often gets in trouble for over-analyzing
strategic situations.  On the other hand, he is a bright person.  He barely got out
of the Navy intact; his casual manner guaranteed that he never rose in the ranks.


Burke Scrimshaw, age 32
Bald.  Intense.
Played by: James Burke
A philosopher-pilot, Burke concentrates on the human condition almost as much as
piloting.  He is a competent pilot, and doesn't let his habit of staring into the
heavens get in the way of his work.  Much.  In his spare time, Burke prefers to
play poker, sip exotic alcohols, and bounce philosophic concepts off the crew.  He
does this mainly for amusement, for he seldom finds "a worthy adversary".


Alesendria Dracar, age 38
Long, red hair.  Short temper.
Played by: Gates McFadden
A pilot by trade, Alesandria dabbles in the arts and sciences.  Her background
includes research and (a little) teaching at a college, spending time as an intern
at a major hospital, and some business experience.  She paints for recreation.  She
also likes to visit the firing range (she needs the practice).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:56:03 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Scarey TMLers... :^)

THAT I've gotta' look into.  My appointment book is at work so I'll have to
take a peek tomorrow.  I'll drop you a personal line tomorrow for some more
info if all works out.

Jesse

>Yes, you should.  Especially considering that you're "just up the
>interstate a ways" from me.  BTW, our club has a *HUGE* full-auto
>shoot scheduled for the weekend of May 15-16.  It's the biggest
>annual full-auto event on the west coast and, of course, the general
>public is invited to come, watch, and even participate!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:59:17 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts

I've always had a problem with the Lanthium Grid concept that M.M. described
a number of years after the initial creation of Traveller.  The ability to
PREVENT a ship from jumping by creating a break in the grid should effect
combat damaged ships in ways that I've not seen in the rules.  It also gives
ships that are being hijacked an option that I don't want... I DO want
"pusher" ships IMTU...  ships which can attach themselves to uncoated
objects and jump... without the need to wrap the object in some type of
shell.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:14:14 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Blind Transmission

Thanks to those of you who emailed notes of support.  Always nice to get
thanked for your efforts. Any chance you could teach that to my team
leader?  :-)

Based on the emails I received, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions:

1) I'm in no danger of cracking up.  I'm not the one in trouble, and my
kid will pull through in the end.  I'm certainly not worried about finding
a suicide note this time.  (Been there, done that, and don't want to do it
again. Ever.) If you really want to help, do some volunteer work in your
local community (many of you do this already).  

2) I didn't, and don't, think that any member of the TML practices violent
crime (including non-consensual sex) or sex with minors.  I teach
children, 12-19, and unfortunately some of the remarks simply hit too
close to a current situation I'm dealing with*.  My request to drop the
topic was in the same vein as someone who recently lost a friend wanting
to avoid the topic of death for a while. 

3) While I'm not reading the TML right now, I (obviously) haven't
unsubscribed, and I haven't deleted any digests. I probably won't have
time to read the digests, but if you desperately want a comment email me
with the digest number and I'll have a look. (Or send me the original
message, whichever is easier.)  However, I think it best for everyone if I
stay away for a week or so -- I'm short of sleep and that always makes me
say things I regret later.

4) I'm not dropping Traveller, just not interacting with the TML for a
while. I've emailed Jeff Zeitlin the RTF version of 101 Starships revision
2, and BITS and SJG will get the PDF versions tomorrow.  GT Shipyard is
out, Imperial Grand Survey is out, and Metator is well underway.  

5) Aldous Huxley summarized all the advice he gave in his life as: "Try to
be a little kinder."  If we all (including most emphatically myself)
follow this, we'll get along fine.


*Obviously I can't give you details about any specific case. Divorce,
suicide, murder, rape, incest, forced prostitution... it's been an
eventful career so far, with nearly thirty years to go. I'd gross over a
million dollars more if I stayed an engineer, but quite frankly I love my
kids too much to leave them behind and go back to code and circuits.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:16:26 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: My Wife's Yacht (Corrected Version)

Ooops!  Forgot one important feature....

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> In our M:1100 game, my main character's wife (Soc: C) came into a truly
> obscene amount of money, and commissioned the following yacht (design by
> AuricTech Shipyards):
> 
> Electra II-class Yacht
> 
> Tons: 1000 std (SL Needle Hypersonic)
> Dimensions: 174.9 m x 17.6 m x 17.6 m
> Volume: 14000 m3
> Cargo: 7 std (1 hatches, Hdl: 1 x 5 t)
> Mass (L/C): 8569 t / 8071 t
> Maintenance Points: 280
> Passengers High/Med: 14/0
> Crew: 9 / 18
> Frozen Watch: 0
> Cost: 996.526 MCr
> Tech Level: 13
> Size: 9
> 
> Electronics
> Controls: Holographic, High automation. 3 xFibComp (CM: 0.3 CP: 3.33).
> Terrain following sensors (TF:510, NOE:170). Bridge.
> Communications: 2 x Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 2 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
> Sensors: 1xPEMS (13.5 [16 mkm], 0.01 MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5 mkm] LP, 1.25
> MW). 1 xLIDAR (14.5 [500 kkm], 0.6 MW).
> Survey/Science: None
> ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (11, .39 MW).
> 1xPas. Jammer (14, .16 MW).
> Signatures: Vis:-.5, IR: -.5 (-1 at 951 MW, -1 at 109 MW), Act:-.5,
> Neu:-1, Grav:1
> 
> Performance
> 4 Jump (100 std/pc fuel)
> 3 / 3.1 Maneuver (Thruster: 632 MW)
> 1 / 1 Contra-grav (139 MW)
> 3916 kph/4065 kph Atmosphere Maximum
> 2971 kph/3049 kph Atmosphere Cruise
> 2 Power (Fusion: 1088 MW,1yr)
> 0 Battery
> 407.8 Fuel (Scoop:5 /Purif:39 hrs, 4 MW)
> 0/32/0/8 Accomodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low Berth)
> 640 Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Excellent Food/Storage)
> 3 G-Comp
> 2 Sandcasters (AV: 66 / Cans: 27)
> 10 [29] Armor, 20 Structure
> 
> Weapons (300,000km range bands)
> 1 x 61-Mj Laser Turret (+4) 1/2-2-2-2 [1,400/20-20-20-20] 400 rof
> 
> Features
> 10 x Airlock
> 0x Decontamination Airlock
> 1 x  Sickbay (8std ea.)
> 1x Ship's locker (.5 std ea.)
> 1 x Armory (1.14 std ea.)
> 1 x Gym (2.5 std ea.)
> 1 x Full Galley (Cap: 32 each)

***forgotten feature***
1 x Ballroom (50 std ea)

> 
> Small Craft
> 1 x Minimal Hangar (4 std, 1 hatch)
> 1 x Spacious Hangar (30 std, 1 hatch)
> 
> Backups
> Drives: None
> Screens: None
> Communications: None
> Sensors: None
> ECM: None
> Power & Fuel: None
> 
> Crew Details 2 x Maneuver. 5 x Engineering. 2 x Gunnery. 2 x Screen. 2 x
> Flight. 2 x Command. 2 x Steward . 1 x Medical.
> 
> --
> ------
> |    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> |JOLT|
> |COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
> |    |
> ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:15:00 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Gurps Books

At 12:53 PM 3/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>	These are the books I consider necessary to help run a Gurps:
>Traveller campaign.  Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion and
>yes I know you can run a campaign with just Gurps Light and Gurps Traveller.
>
>Gurps Basic Set
>Gurps Martial Arts (Really a necessary book for any campaign IMHO)
>Gurps Robots
>Gurps Psionics

Personally, I don't use the G:Martial Arts rules, but the others are
appropriate.

The second tier of books (read as: not necessary, but will really, really
help.) are: 

Compendium I (But the GM should carefully limit which ads/disads are
available)
Ultratech
Ultratech 2
Hightech (If you have a lot of GTL7- stuff in your campaign)

The third tier is 
Mecha (for battledress)
Fantasy Folk (For minor race creation)
Vehicles 2nd
Biotech





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:17:55 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Max Acceleration

At 06:02 PM 3/23/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Walter Smith wrote:
>
>>I'm wondering what the ramifications of such a weapon would be in terms
>>of fleet design philosophies.
>>
>>Take HG, add a weapon that will kill a very large or low-agility target
almost
>>every time. The only defenses against it are high agility, or the ability to
>>keep the firing unit from getting into range. Add that this weapon can be
>>fired from a very small ship. 
>
>Add one constraint - the weapon has very short range compared with the
>main armament on the heavies- far, far less than the meson
>guns/PAW/Lasers - i.e. you have to survive closing to point-blank range
>to fire it.

Sounds like the plasma(?) weapon from the classic Star Trek episode
"Balance of Terror"  (The one where the Romulans shoot an expanding ball of
plasma at the enterprise.)

I think a weapon like this also exists in the Babylon Wars war game.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:56:37 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Red Dwarf (was: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav)

Now that IS an interesting idea!!  Jesse, be ready for BayCon!!
<<EG>>

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:29:31 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: HG Variant

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: HG Variant (was re: Max Acceleration/High Guard)
...
>IMO, the idea of a screened reserve in outer space is a bit crazy - especially
>when the battle line can be one ship while the screened reserve numbers
>in the dozens. I realize that it's a play mechanic, but I can't even come
>up with an idea of what maneuvers it is abstracting. Maybe I can keep

  The one ship bit bothers me, too, although HG does make you pay a stiff 
price for putting your reserve behind an inadequate screem - IIRC, it's a
free round of unanswered fire on the reserve/screened elements if no firing
vessels remain in your line at the end of a round.

  If you do play it out on hexes (and assume that you can't enter a hex
occupied by a firing enemy unit - see alternative below) then the number
of "line" sites that need to be occupied increases as detachments try to
go around the otherwise near-point (single hex) battleline to get at your
reserves. The discussion on SF-CONSIM pretty much concluded that you could
force at least a comprehensive 2-D situation using vector movement, but a
given game design may not wish to complicate matters with a map.

...
>you too busy to go after my transports by being right in your face and
>firing, but I can't see slowing down the destroyers just because one
>enemy gunboat survived being fired on by your cruisers.

  Agreed, and the 2300 rule pretty much fixes it if applied - at close enough
range shots are simply exchanged (at short range or short w/bonus hit mods)
tit for tat until one unit is unable to continue firing - at which point it
will likely be completely scrubbed away; ROF 400+ at a few thousands of km's
is nothing less than appalling, even in theory.

  There might actually be a special niche for (non-HG design sequence) gunships
with either battery powered (rules-dependent) or det-laser missile armaments
that serve primarily as speed bumps to deter enemy escorts from closing rapidly;
impaling oneself on units optimized for short term firepower is not a good idea.

...
>Note that if the defending ship were close enough to the reserve for his
>short range fire to be an effective deterrent to the enemy fleet, the
>enemy fleet would be well within effective range of the reserve before getting
>into the defender's deadly range. 

  Does not follow if the intervenor is between the two elements. The limited
case you describe would, however, apply to a force in a hex trying to stop
attackers in multiple divergent locations, which is where hex maps or highly
sophisticated abstract displays become essential - of course, some of those
might be more awkward than a hex display itself...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:01:52 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Clif

NNNOOOOOOO!!!  You made me spew chocolate shake on <<ffzzzt>> cons<<scwarrrk>>
you ba...<<<schmunk...POP!>>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:34:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller [Long-esque]

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> 
>         Just GMed a FUDGE Traveller session on the weekend and it went
> great! 

Ahh...Brother Eris, we have another convert to the dark, sticky and sweet side ;-)

Very cool, Charles, VERY well done one pager. Did your players actually get
around to combat? How did you do things like guns? (If you want, somewhere
around here I have an old, old rec.games.frp post entitled FudgeGunz dealing
with the subject...)

You hit the nail squarely on the head, though, at one point: the GM's iron
will is necessary to keep things from getting way out of hand, or else you
need to institute some sort of points system, per the Fudge rules. (making it
more like GURPS in many ways)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:39:26 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Red Dwarf (was: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav)

I'll start dusting off the FGMP ;)
Jesse

>Now that IS an interesting idea!!  Jesse, be ready for BayCon!!
><<EG>>
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #339
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 340



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?
Re: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts
Re: Garbage
Re: max accel
Re: GURPS PD
RE:Brown Bess vs BD
Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller
Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.
Re: Clif
GURPS: Far Trader at my FLGS!!!
Re: GURPS: Far Trader at my FLGS!!!
Re: Brown Bess vs BD
BayCon
RE: Garbage
RE: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts
Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas
Re: Clif
Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate
Ships Locker on Scout Ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:47:16 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Have Any G:T Rules Issues?

Smart, David J (David) wrote:

>Secondly, I'm trying to find all the issues in the
>GURPS engine which can affect a G:T game. Examples are
>the effectiveness of point defense lasers vs. missiles,
>the effectiveness of missiles in general, effective
>use of fighter-type craft (if any), "double-booking",
>etc.

That's a tough one, as you're trying to hit a moving target in some ways.
You've got your GURPS psionic rules, your Ultra-Tech medical rules, your
GURPS Space spacecraft combat rules (which are modified for Traveller by the
G:T book.) which is abstract combat, the detailed combat rules in G:T which
for space combat, which uses a hex map; your vehicle combat rules (also
modified for traveller) from GURPS Vehicles.  This leaves out GURPS
Cybertech, the Ultra-Tech 2 Safe-tech rules and about a half dozen other
possibilities.

>Oh, one more thing..has anyone figured out why GURPS uses
>armor PD in addition to DR rather than just DR? It seems
>that PD is just an unnecessary complication.

I believe that this system is used because GURPS was originally evolved from
the MAN-TO-MAN rule set which was primarily concerned with fantasy-medieval
weapon combat. The use of armor and shields is very important in that
context and SJ wanted a way to differentiate the Passive Defense that
resulted from the use of a shield or armor, which prevents a character from
taking a hit and the Damage Resistance clothing or armor gives when taking a
hit.  It's been a good 18 years since I first used M-T-M so I might remember
wrong.  Anybody ever have SJ tell them why he used this system?

Terry C

I.T.C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:10:36 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts

Paul Schirf wrote:

> I've always had a problem with the Lanthium Grid concept that M.M. described
> a number of years after the initial creation of Traveller.  The ability to
> PREVENT a ship from jumping by creating a break in the grid should effect
> combat damaged ships in ways that I've not seen in the rules.  It also gives
> ships that are being hijacked an option that I don't want... I DO want
> "pusher" ships IMTU...  ships which can attach themselves to uncoated
> objects and jump... without the need to wrap the object in some type of
> shell.

I've made this suggestion numerous times.  Use a combination of grid and coil
technology.  The coil will make a spheroid jump field with multiple coils able
to deform it somewhat.  However, it becomes very inefficient to wrap a needle
configuration in a sphere.  Thus you use the grid in order to mould your jump
field into a tighter shape around your vessel.

How does this apply to your complaints?

Well, in the case of ship damage, the field will tend to leak out through holes
in the grid which might cause a bubble in the field at the leak while reducing
the field slightly around the rest of the ship.  Until the leakage draws enough
off to bring the field into contact with the hull, you can still jump.  You then
arbitrarilly set  the damage to suit your game universe.  Likewise, if you can
produce enough extra jump capability (extra power, fuel, etc.) you might be able
to compensate for more damage.

In the case of pusher ships, you can design their grids so that they
intentionally leak out in a specific direction (towards the captured vessel) or
even do away with your ship's grid and rely on spheroid shaped bubbles from
coils.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:16:33 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

I thought I had an interesting take on jump fields in my house jump rules for
MTU.  Aside from the people who requested em, did anyone else read em?  In
short, there's a variable # of fluctuations in the jump field, based on the
Final Jump Factor.  These can be corrected and prevented by proper task rolls.
Various levels on severity on jump sickness (wounds to head and chest) based
on how bad the fluctuation, and response, is.

IMO, you throw something out into jumpspace, you never see it again w/ no
(discernable- I have fun and am a very patient and cunning Ref, if I do say so
myself) ill effect as long as you keep yourself inside the J-field.  The
Jumpspace article from JTAS (by one Marc Miller) says:  "Anything (personnel,
small craft, missiles) becomes subject to the physics of the current jump
space. People die; equipment malfunctions; small craft disappear."


Hans wrote:

> I'm at a loss to understand that statement, since one of the problems with
> jump drive fuel consumption is that ALL the jump fuel is used up BEFORE the
> ship enters jump space.

It is?  I know that view of the fuel usage (which I'm not sure the source of)
is what dooms drop tanks, too.  Why not just say some has to be used
throughout jump (as "displacement mass, coolant, and/or "normal" fuel)?  What
canon does that violate?  It would seem to go against the grain of the
Jumpspace article in JTAS (which implies that jump w/o Lhyd is possible), but
anything else?

[IMTU, J-fuel is, as listed in FF&S, collectively "normal" fuel, coolant, and
displacement mass, all of which is Lhyd.  The coolant and fuel 'parts' are
both consumed at the same time and are used throughout jump (maintaining the
J-field) while the displacement mass is used to to fill the space that
"leaves" normal space w/ the ship and precedes the space the ship will fill
when it precipitates.]


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:16:35 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

Bloo wrote:

> in here with my view that the G ratings of most Traveller ships are waaay
> to low.  IMTU, if you're ship can't withstand 10Gs for 10 minutes,
> it doesn't get certified.

G-comp is limited by technology.  I'm pretty sure u're aware of that, but just
making sure it's noted.  I'm sure limited periods of high accel are possible
in atmosphere by craft designed for such (pulling and/or turning hard, etc),
though I'm not sure if such is possible in space...  maybe a "slingshot"
around a gravity well or something.  I don't believe in "overdrive" as the
higher accel isn't designed for (at least in FF&S and FFS2... not sure bout
G:V).  For long periods (20min HG and 30 min BL/BR turns) the *crew* can't
take the higher accel.  In workstations/accel couches, you can take off 2 more
G's of str8 accel and 1 more of evasion.  Pop in G-tanks and there's another.
Then one more and there's a -1 Diff Mod to all actions.  Another and Bad
Things (tm) start to happen.  So at TL-15 you're limited to 10G's max for
straight, 9 for evasion.  Now look at how much of the ship is to M-drives.
Note how much space is lost to the g-tanks.  

Or do you mean for short intensity bursts?  To what end?  Evasion?  Given
'short intensity,' ineffective with the long range and duration of Traveller
space combat.

And antimatter isn't a concern in 1100, as its' largely beyond of the tech
capabilities of the 3I.  Now in the Regency, it's on the horizon (Vincennes
and Mora are TL-16 and Vincennes, at least, is TL-17 if you just add water).
That'll just mean the ROF 800 PD lasers make a firm appearance on military
ships.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:16:37 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS PD

> A veteran tank driver, with a skill of 16 has a basic dodge of 4.  This
> means he needs to roll 4 or less on 3d6 to avoid a blow, thus, a tank will
> suffer damage from a successful hit 98.2% of the time.  Adding sloped armor
> to this, raises the dodge to 10, thus dropping the probability of damage to
> only 50%.  

There's a huge common sense problem w/ dodge rules against direct fire and one
here, too IMO.  Basically, a hit or miss is based on the aim of the weapon.
Jinking, fast movement, range, etc etc all affect the aim (giving proper lead,
anticipating movement), but a tank driver can't do anything but jink
randomly... there is no active "dodge" involved, just trying to avoid patterns
in movement, etc.  Berm drills involve coming up just enough to fire and
backing down just as soon as the tank has fired.  No dodging involved.  GURPS
doesn't let characters dodge against small arms fire, does it?  I can see
adding a raw difficulty or target number or whatever, and also cover and
concealment, but not a skill in actively evading fire.  For vehicle and
personal combat. IMOA.  YMMVTRLDNIMO.

Was one of my biggest beefs w/ Star Wars, too.  I had players that made The
Mask and Remo Williams proud when in Real Life (tm), there's very little you
can do except hope the other guy isn't as good as shot and you can nail him
first.

Just FTR, tanks have been and are my business.  USMC MOS 1812 M1A1 tank
crewman here (gunner).  Being a gunner means I was once a driver, too.  It's
avoiding a pattern that's the tricky part...  even if you think you're not,
you end up falling into one (though it might be a complicated one) without
constant direction from the TC, unless u're very erratic (which has a bad
habit for po'ing the gunner).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:37:40 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE:Brown Bess vs BD

Musashi chimes in:

Having shot a .69 caliber Brown Bess dozens of times I would not want to
be within its threat envelope at 50 to 100 yards. Very messy to flesh,
pumpkins, and cinder blocks at that range. They're not very aimable but
devestating to legs, arms, heads, and torsos if these are hit with the
Bess's lead rock within these ranges. Bernie Cornwell ain't kidding when
he writes about the carnage those guns can do in his Sharpe novels.
Reading surgeons reports from the American Revolution and the Pennisular
Wars are pretty gruesome, and I know a gentleman who was 'knicked' by a
.69 in a range accident, if you can call scars that look like a roll of
quarters was shoved through his outer right thigh. And he was hit a 80+
yards! I haven't fired my Dixie BB in about two years but my shoulder
still cringes at the thought.

A Kentucky/Pennsylvania Rifle of .50 or .60 caliber will put a fairly
devestating deep crater in a V-8 engine block at 200 yards. I've done
it. They  kick like a Garand, hit like a .308 Winchester. Their chief
limitation is ROF. In (very) much  better hands than mine they can be
the equal of most modern bolt action rifles for aim and damage, with
delicate hand loading these people can hit a targets at 700 yards. I own
a .50 Cal. Hawken now that has an effective range of 200 yards, but
usually is more lethal from 50 to 150. It has tremendous penetration for
a round ball.

My current love is a .54 Caliber Berdan's Sharps, "MA BELLE"  (orignals
were .52 caliber, but the replicas are a little bigger to help
distinguish from real ones and fakes, and they shoot better). With this
double trigger long rifle with a dropping  breech (8-10 RPM) I'm sure  a
marksman could nail a trooper in Battle Dress at 300 yards or more. An
accuritized Sharp's with a 4X scope is a extremely lethal sniper rifle
out to 500 yards. This was done repeatedly during the American Civil War
by members of Berdan's United States Sharpshooters. Other heavy,
particularly Bavarian percussion target (jaeger) rifles had longer
ranges and bigger calibers. The confederates used in small numbers the
english Whitworth, which had a hexagonal 'rilfling' with a corresponding
'hex' bullet. One of these killed Maj. General John Sedgwick at
Spotsylvania from over 800 yards. His last words were "Why men, they
can't hit an elephant at this dis...."

Now if the entire BD is bullet resistant to an ACR (which they're not)
then a Brown Bess or a Berdan's couldn't really mess up a Imperial
Troopers day. But I wonder, how the Imeprial Army (or Marines) would
allow guerillas to get that close with the tech lead in sensors,
counter-fire, and intelligence. Perhaps a sharpshooter would nail one
trooper or even two, but the anti-sniper response would be devestating.
With doppler, micromillimeter radars, ladar, ballistic compututers the
size of matchbooks,etc for sensors, PGMP, FGMP, smart mortars, or just
plain tunsten rods from orbit for retaliation would make such an attack
untenable. Guerillas might not give a damn, but good shots are scarce.
However, don't underestimate the power of black powder rifles! Try the
North-South Skirmish Association web site for tables 'n' such. I'm not
kidding!


Musashi
aka
Private Mike Foy
2nd Regiment Co. C
United States Sharpshooters
Army of the Potomac
Who'd never claim himself to be a real one.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:45:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller

<Bruce Johnson>
Ahh...Brother Eris, we have another convert to the dark, sticky and sweet
side
;-)
</Bruce Johnson>

Ya, I must admit I'm finding it very freeing.  I've been comparing it to
Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do martial art:  Abandon strict regulated forms, all
movement must flow freely! :-)  One of my friends added that Jeet Kune Do
is best practiced after many years of training in other, more formal,
martial arts.  Therefore, he reasoned, FUDGE in the hands of a "true geek
master" would be ultimately devastating! :-) 

<Bruce Johnson>
Very cool, Charles, VERY well done one pager. Did your players actually
</Bruce Johnson>

Thanks!

<Bruce Johnson>
around to combat? How did you do things like guns? (If you want, somewhere
around here I have an old, old rec.games.frp post entitled FudgeGunz
with the subject...)
</Bruce Johnson>

Oh, we _definately_ had combat! :-)  A bunch of Aslan Ihatei invaders blew
in through the roof of a mall on Tarsus where the characters were trying
to buy some equipment and all hell broke lose.  I basically pulled the
values out of my head, giving the Aslan heavy battledress Superb
protection against most things and slug weapons damage ratings from Good
to Superb. The characters quickly headed for the weapons shop (Tarsus Law
Level=0, BTW) and grabbed a heavy guass gun and an anti-aircraft missile
launcher.  The HDGG made quick work of a couple of baddies, but the AA
headed straight up through the hole in the roof looking for airborne
targets instead of hitting the Alsan it was aimed at. Much hilarity ensued
when a damaged Aslan G-Carrier came crashing down through the roof a
moment later... :-)

Oh ya, I'd definately like to see the FudgeGunz file!  

We even had space combat in fact, though here I used the "story element" 
system.  I have a bunch of notes/thoughts/scribbles on FUDGE space combat
lying around, perhaps I'll clean them up a bit and send them along?  It's
basically similar to the personal combat system I posted.

<Bruce>
You hit the nail squarely on the head, though, at one point: the GM's iron
will is necessary to keep things from getting way out of hand, or else you
need to institute some sort of points system, per the Fudge rules. (making
it more like GURPS in many ways)    
</Bruce>

Ya, like I said, I think the only real limitation on power-gamers is the
GM anyways.  The only thing the _system_ can change by trying to "balance" 
things is the limits to which one can go.  In a system like FUDGE's
subjective character design, the sky's the limit.  In a system like GURPS
the limit depends on the points allowed for chargen.  In either system a
power-gamer is going to go to the limit, and the only thing stopping him
is the GM.  It's like that old joke about trains: 

"They say the car on the end of a train is the most dangerous one to be in
if it crashes."

"Oh really?  Then why don't they take it off?" :-)
 
Trying to "balance" a game system is similarly doomed to fail, IMHO.
You just end up changing the end-points of the scale.  Not that there's no
benefit in giving some structure to chargen, just that it won't stop
minmaxers.

Luckily for me, I've got a good group of players (two veterans and two
newbies), so I didn't have to do much of the iron fist thing. One of the
newbies may be a budding power-gamger, but in the young ones it's just
kinda cute, y'know? :-)

Ciao,
Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:21:20 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: In Praise of PingPong balls.

At 11:18 pm 3/21/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Clif have you ever done time?  At work, we're always preventing
the Inmates
>> from "hoarding" matches for just the same reason.
>
>Out of curiousity, how did you arrive at the "contraband" list? Is
>there some sort of "standard" list floating around, or has it been
>compiled from experience at your location only?
>
>If there's a standard list, it might be interesting to post it just
to
>show the sort of stuff that *can* be dangerous in the wrong hands. 

	You want dangerous in the wrong hands? Yesterday on the plane I was
reading an article in Reader's Digest about a kid who built a BREEDER
REACTOR in his mother's garden shed. Imagine coming home and seeing
yellow tape around your neighbor's yard, and men in full isolation
suits emptying the contents of your neighbor's shed into 55-gallon
drums with radiation warnings, and then dissassembling the same shed
into those drums ...

	Brief synopsis (some details mangled): kid with too much
imagination. Parents start him off on "Golden Age of Chemistry
Experiments Book." He gets banished to experimenting in garden shed
after explosion in basement. Dad, in attempt to provide good
experience, enrolls kid in Boy Scouts. First merit badge he earns:
Atomic Energy.

	Kid decides he wants to irradiate stuff. Impersonates high school
teacher, corresponds with NRC about isotopes, enrichment, etc.
Helpful bureaucrat tells him safety isn't a big issue, as anything
that strong is under NRC license. Kid discovers smoke detectors
contain americium. Convinces smoke detector company to sell him a
hundred broken ones, at a buck apiece (part of "science project.").
Collects americium, places in small lead block with tiny hole, which
is now emitting alpha particles. Places aluminum foil in front of
alpha stream, which absorbs alphas and emits neutrons.

	Kid decides that's not enough, takes to salvaging old clocks,
scraping radium off. Finds vial of radium paint in antique store,
purifies. Stronger neutron emitter.

	Somehow gets hold of piece of pitchblende (uranium ore). Afer a few
false starts, manages to produce neutrons of right energy to aim at
pitchblende.

	Discovers gas lantern mantles contain thorium. Buys a few gross
mantles, burns to ash. Throws in stack of lithium batteries, cut
open, and heats in bunsen burner to produce thorium a few thousand
times purer than nature, and a few hundred times above level
requiring NRC license. 

	Mixes thorium, pitchblende in aluminum foil, irradiates with
neutrons. At this point, walking the neighborhood with his geiger
counter, he's getting readings all the way down the street. Thinks
perhaps this Is Not A Good Idea. Throws stuff in trunk, drives off.

	Concerned Citizen reports possible tire theft, cops respond.
Discover briefcase in trunk, padlocked, sealed with tape. Kid warns
about contents. Cops get concerned, contact EPA, eventually full
radiation team responds.	
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:44:57 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Clif

Here's a hint bro', never eat OR drink anything whilst reading the TML, it's
VERY bad for your computer :)
Jesse


>NNNOOOOOOO!!!  You made me spew chocolate shake on <<ffzzzt>>
cons<<scwarrrk>>
>you ba...<<<schmunk...POP!>>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:06:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GURPS: Far Trader at my FLGS!!!

The Nice Man at my FLGS called today to tell me my copy of Far Trader 
is in! I'll let you know how it looks after a good look this weekend.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:35:37 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Far Trader at my FLGS!!!

>The Nice Man at my FLGS called today to tell me my copy of Far Trader
>is in! I'll let you know how it looks after a good look this weekend.
>
>Terry
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

SADIST!!!

My FLGS _FINALLY_ got my copy of Star Mercs two weeks ago :^(  I might see
Far Trader prior to summer.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:18:28 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Brown Bess vs BD

>
> Now if the entire BD is bullet resistant to an ACR (which they're not)
> then a Brown Bess or a Berdan's couldn't really mess up a Imperial
> Troopers day. But I wonder, how the Imeprial Army (or Marines) would
> allow guerillas to get that close with the tech lead in sensors,
> counter-fire, and intelligence. Perhaps a sharpshooter would nail one
> trooper or even two, but the anti-sniper response would be devestating.
> With doppler, micromillimeter radars, ladar, ballistic compututers the
> size of matchbooks,etc for sensors, PGMP, FGMP, smart mortars, or just
> plain tunsten rods from orbit for retaliation would make such an attack
> untenable. Guerillas might not give a damn, but good shots are scarce.
> However, don't underestimate the power of black powder rifles! Try the
> North-South Skirmish Association web site for tables 'n' such. I'm not
> kidding!

Technology is a poor replacement for tactics.  One of the problems with
putting a high tech trooper on the ground is that if, through superior
tactics and terrain advantage, one (or hundreds) of those neanderthals does
manage to take out one of your troopers, then they would have your tech.
Don't risk what you aren't willing to lose.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:51:52 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: BayCon

First, the last couple of days have been grim for me.

Today I have much more prospective, and husband
and wife team of lawyers that come highly recommended.

Cheer for the the right side, the one where I can
talk to my Soon to be Ex friendly like, and we
share in raising my son.

Thanks everybody for your support.


NOW, Would wants to meet at BayCon?
I would like a show of  Appendages.
And being that I haven't seen a program
yet when would be a good time.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:50:17 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Garbage

Douglas Glatz writes:

>>Since the (mostly) accepted handwave is that the H2 fuel is used to 
maintain
>>a field of N-space around the ship - one that is slowly destroyed by 
contact
>>with J-space (hence the need to replenish it over the span of the jump),
>
>I'm at a loss to understand that statement, since one of the problems with
>jump drive fuel consumption is that ALL the jump fuel is used up BEFORE 
the
>ship enters jump space.
>
>[My own explanation is that jump space is denser than (outer) real space,
>and that it is therefore impossible to cross the dimensional interface
>without 'softening it up' first (Compare it to the effect of a high-speed
>vehicle trying to dive into water; at sufficiently high velocities the
>water is as rigid as steel). All the H2 is used to create a small spot in
>jumpspace where a ship can slip into the dimension. Once inside jump space
>there's no problem (the water analogy applies here too) and no more
>hydrogen is necessesary. The reason why you need more H2 to enter higher
>jumpspace dimensions is that they are denser and need more hydrogen to
>create a 'soft spot'. This also explain why you can't jump without H2 even
>if your capacitors are fully charged.]

Perhaps I am the one with the misunderstanding.  I believe (but I'm not 
pulling out tomes to verify it yet) that the jump process required 'most' 
of the fuel, with the remaining amounts originally going to cool the Zuccai 
crystals.  Then, when the theory of the N-space bubble was put forth, it 
was theorized (fantasized??) that the pure H2 was needed so that the 
deterioration of the N-space bubble would be controlled and easier to 
forecast (and explain why unpurified H2 causes misjumps, when it doesn't 
affect N-space power generation).

Thus (my numbers) 90% of the required fuel is put into energy productions, 
with the remaining 10% needed to ensure the N-space bubble's integrity 
through the duration of the Jump.  This is how it is explained IMTU, at any 
rate.

douglas
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:53:35 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts

I've always believed that Lanthanum 'cables' or emergency runs are carried 
in the Engineering repair lockers, and that the ability to 'jury rig' 
repairs to the J-drive involves correcting problems in the grid.

But you are right, there is no defined process for the damaging and/or 
repairing the Lanthanum grid.

douglas


- ----------
From: 	Paul Schirf[SMTP:pc@PerkWorks.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, March 23, 1999 9:59 PM
To: 	traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: 	Re: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts

I've always had a problem with the Lanthium Grid concept that M.M. 
described
a number of years after the initial creation of Traveller.  The ability to
PREVENT a ship from jumping by creating a break in the grid should effect
combat damaged ships in ways that I've not seen in the rules.  It also 
gives
ships that are being hijacked an option that I don't want... I DO want
"pusher" ships IMTU...  ships which can attach themselves to uncoated
objects and jump... without the need to wrap the object in some type of
shell.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:55:02 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-Ball T-Shirt Ideas

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Not without some heavy modifying and re-texturing.  Unfortunately, at this
> point, I'm no good with "organic" modeling (i.e. sophonts).

 That is what I have been working on. I'm still way down on the learning
curve thou.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:19:31 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Clif

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Here's a hint bro', never eat OR drink anything whilst reading the TML, it's
> VERY bad for your computer :)
> Jesse
>
> >NNNOOOOOOO!!!  You made me spew chocolate shake on <<ffzzzt>>
> cons<<scwarrrk>>
> >you ba...<<<schmunk...POP!>>
> >

 Hummm..... Looks like time for another remedial Fluid Retention class.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:20:38 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Public Affairs Office of the IRIS Directorate

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> >So can you tell me, IYTU does "IRIS" exists or not?

> No.  According to canon, the Moot is responsible for determining the
> suitability of any heir.  Hence the Emperors elevated to the throne by 
> Moot vote during the Civil War.

Yes but presumably the Moot does not make their decisions in a vacuum.
They need sources of information to make these sorts of decisions.  Is
it not possible that IRIS is one of them?

> >I ask because:
> >
> >1.   The original article is specifically labeled as a "variant".

Yes it is however that can just as easily be interpreted as meaning: we
(GDW) are not yet ready to commit to the details of all of the Imperiums
spy agencies, therefore we are labeling this one a variant so the refs
can decide.  It could even be interpreted as: The
particular details about the IRIS organization are a variant.

If they had meant: In the official Traveller universe the organization
IRIAS does not exist and we are publishing this article only for those
of you who want to throw in a non canonical spook agency they might have
conveyed that message a bit more bluntly.

> >2.   _Survival Margin_ discredits the organization (Strephon's 
> >comment about "Maybe someone should explain the Moot to them").
> 
> That and his "I think I might have heard of them before comment."

What Strephon says [Survival Margin pg. 28] is

"Who are these IRIS people?
You'd think that I might have heard of them once or twice."

Notice that Strephon does not say  "What is his IRIS organization that I
have never heard of?  What Strephon said could just as easily be read as
saying  "Who are _these_ IRIS people? I.E. We do not recognize the names
and faces of these particular agents from the real agency IRIS.  Perhaps
they are/were somewhat more junior in the agency then they portray
themselves as being and that is why We have not heard of them." 
Therefore IRIS can exist in your Traveller universe.  Strephon has not
denied that IRIS exists he has only disputed the claim to importance of
_these_particular_ IRIS agents.

This interpretation of the text is, admittedly, less obvious.  However
as Emperor Strephon is in politics & therefore we must assume that if
anything he says is true it is true only in the most literal & weaseling
senses of the word.  Naturally we need to take a good hard look at
anything he says rather than interpret it in only one way.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:31:52 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

> From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>

> IMTC I gave the party ACR's in a Donosev locker, one of the players an 
> old traveller hand, commented that this was a lot of fire power and that 
> the ACR was primarily a military weapon...I guess I was going on the 
> fact that on U.S. Naval vessals..they keep M16's in the ships 
> locker...General comments? Flames? :)

First, reference to canon:  Book 6: Scouts provides in the character
generation section (pp. 14-15, 19) that Scouts may obtain gun combat
skill in a Basic Traveller weapons, but not combat rifle (the Book 4:
Mercenary skill that governs assault rifle, ACR, gauss rifle).  So that
indicates that Scout ships would have, at most, laser rifles and auto
rifles in the ship's locker.  

Nevertheless, I don't find ACRs to be excessively heavy fire power for
any Scout ship's locker.  The Scouts have to deal with a lot of
different situations a long way from any help, and armed only with only
their wits and what they have aboard ship.  In my Traveller campaigns,
while the IISS did set regulations about what weapons Scout ships were
authorized and required to carry, Scout ships in actual service usually
had a variety of weapons aboard, both official issue and, um, scrounged
... sometimes from the other services, sometimes from other branches of
the IISS.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #340
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 341



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Q-Ships
Re: Colonization Rights
Re: Combine MT with G:T combat
Mustering Out Bennies
Re: Imperial interdiction policies
[OT] Re: Blind Transmission
Re: max accel
RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
Re: 
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
Re: M:E21  How to colonize Prometheus
Early Terran Colonial Transport
Re: Gurps Books
Mailing List
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #340
Re: Stepping outside the jump-field (be right back...)
Just Detected: GT T-shirts
Re: Plug for IRC game

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:33:14 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Q-Ships

> From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>

> Not really. While no-one is using Q-Ships, the U-boats will at least
> give the crew/passengers time to abandon ship before using the deck gun.
> When it gets out that this trick is going on, they'll just use torpedoes
> from underwater and d*mn the conventions.
> 
> ObTrav: I know that the Imperial Rules of War prevent the use of nukes;
> but is there any requirement to give a freighter crew time to abandon
> ship before it's vapourised?

The Imperial Rules of War only apply to war between member states of the
Imperium.  The 
Imperium doesn't allow commerce raiding as part of such warfare, because
it impinges on the Imperial Navy's total domination of space.  The
Imperium views any such commerce raiding as simple piracy, and deals
with it as such.  What about attacking a freighter in port?  Starports
are considered part of the Imperium, not the member state, so such an
attack is an attack on the Imperium -- bad idea.  What about attacking a
freighter on its way to downport while it's in the atmosphere, and thus
safely out of Imperial jurisdiction?  I don't know, but that's probably
your best shot, and you won't have time to give to the crew.  

What do others think about commerce raiding customs between independent
states, like the Imperium, the Zhodani Consulate, various Vargr states,
the 2000 Worlds, the Hive, the Solomani Confederation, the Aslan
Hierate, the Sword Worlds, the Darrians, and the Federation of Arden?  I
think rules vary, and individual commanders have a lot of latitude. 
There probably isn't anything like a Geneva convention governing
treatment of civilians and prisoners of war to which all of the major
independent powers have agreed. I suspect that the K'Kree just kill any
non-vegetarian, non-enslavable sophonts that get in their way, whether
civilian or military.  The three major human states and the Aslan (and
the Sword Worlds) have some traditions of honorable conduct that would
likely lead to informal agreements about how to handle prisoners and the
like.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 99 01:25:49 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Colonization Rights

On 03/23/99 at 11:10 AM,  "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:

>	..but the main area of play in MTU is far away from the Imperium, 
>and the largest polity encompasses the fantastic quantity of 32 
>worlds... so, almost any colonization effort would be outside its 
>boundaries.

Carlos, you know the same applies IMTU. 

>	So, this polity (the Federation) might have a policy regarding 
>colonization of worlds, but, will this policy be accepted by their 
>neighbours?

Probably not.

>	For that matter, this is an important question in M:0. Say the 
>Imperium recognizes the rights of a group of colonists over a world, 
>but the nearest pocket empire suddenly decides that it is interested 
>in that world... in fact, <ehem>, the historical documents of this 
>empire *prove* <ehem> that he world has been claimend for over a 
>century...

>	For that matter, a world is a very big place. What happens if two 
>different groups settle on different continents and claim 
>colonization rights?

>	Within the Imperium, probably not much. The world is now balkanized,
>hop. Outside the Imperium, what happens if each of the groups gets 
>colonization rights from different interstellar states? Will a war 
>erupt? Yes, of course, it depends, but let's assume it is that M:0 
>situation. Will the early 3I go to war with a Pocket Empire to 
>guarantee that *its* colonists get the whole world? Will they send 
>the marines? Or will they negotiate? Makes for some interesting world
>hooks...

>	Now that I stop to think about it, what about *half* a world 
>belonging to the 3I, the other half to a pocket empire? The result of
> a failed negotiation attempt...

When the "New World" was being colonized by the European powers many
colonies were planted along the shores.  Sometimes the colonies
fought, sometimes they traded.  In many cases if the colonies were
left to their own devices they would work together.  It was the
"mother countries" that didn't want that to happen.

In unsettled areas, with several colonizing powers, I can see
situations were several will plant colonies on the same world.  As
you wrote above, interesting situations may arise.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 99 02:02:55 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Combine MT with G:T combat

On 03/23/99 at 08:54 AM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:

>> There *is* a blow-through rule (optional, like most GURPS rules), that
>> limits the amount of damage to some max (don't have my books here, but
>> I think it's HT). 

>Hm..I never read it as optional. 

Well, you know me, *everything* is optional. ;-.

>Max is HT for bullets (different for other types of attacks.)
 
>> Let's say Joe Generio (10) had armor with 10 DR (that's pretty good
>> personal armor, I think)

>Actually, it's not; that's roughly equivalent to TL 8 light
>concealable armor (light monocrys, DR 8).  Good ultratech armor tends
>to have DR 40+.

Depends on your universe, I suppose.  GTL-8 light concealable armor
is about the *best* a civilian would have access to in mine, so DR10
is pretty good IMTU.  Most don't wear armor at all, and getting into
a fight with guns is something to avoid not seek out.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 01:14:57 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Mustering Out Bennies

> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>

> What are the limits of the "weapon" mustering out benefit?  The book says,
> IIRC, that it is applicable to a skill the character has, and subsequent
> rolls of "weapon" can either mean multiple weapons or additional skill
> levels.  We had a character muster out recently and his only weapons skill
> was high energy weapons.  To compound things he was from a TL-15 world and
> mustered out on a TL-15 world.  
> 
> Since he did not have battledress, there was only one weapon he qualified
> for...FGMP-15.  Granted, the scenario was a trip into the jaws of hell, and
> the firepower helped, I still can not come to terms that the Imperial
> Marines would allow someone to claim a fusion gun as a benefit of service
> unless the handwave was that he was doing 'odd jobs' for the Marines and
> they knew where he might end up.

Which rules?  (I should point out that although I am a lawyer, I'm not a
rules lawyer when I play or run RPGs; this question may nevertheless
clarify the problem.)  According to Book 4: Mercenary, mustering out is
as per Traveller Book 1:  Characters and Combat, which does not provide
for FGMPs as mustering out weapons (just basic Traveller weapons).  I
don't remember what Megatraveller or T4 provided, and I don't have TNE
nor G:T.  I note that your statement says, "The book says, IIRC ...."  A
closer look at the book may help.

As an old referee, I would handle the situation in one of these ways: 
(1) The PC can choose a Basic Traveller gun (and subsequent benefits of
"gun" can be taken as skill in that weapon -- even if that skill was not
available through the character generation process).  Remember, just
because you're on a TL 15 planet doesn't mean that the only weapons are
FGMPs.  There will be presently manufactured weapons of lower tech
level.  For example, a TL 15 auto pistol will be made of alloys that
don't self-weld in vaccuum, will have an integral laser target
designator (probably x-ray laser, visible only with appropriate
goggles), will be 25% lighter, will have a safety mechanism linkable to
a specific shooter (or group), etc.  In addition, there will be many old
and off-world weapons of lower tech level, including war souvenirs.  I
usually think of the "gun" and "blade" mustering out benefits as
representing souvenirs.  

(2)  The PC can have that FGMP that he wants so badly, but it's a
souvenir from one of those counter-insurgency missions -- it's missing a
lot of parts and can't be fired at all, let alone safely.  Still, with a
lot of TLC (in the form of mech-3, elec-3, high energy weapons-3, and
lots of Cr) it can be made a very functional part of one's personal
arsenal.  And it will look really cool with that Sword Worlds logo ...
wait the Sword Worlds don't have TL 15 weapons ... the SW logo is
painted over something ... the Imperial Sunburst! ... "property of
Imperial Marines; unauthorized possession is an Imperial High Crime" ...

Anyway, even mustering out benefits can lead to role-playing
opportunities.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 01:38:12 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial interdiction policies

> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com

> Gee; it's just like McDonalds and Mickey Mouse sprouting up all over the
> world. What does the 3I do when you get nationalist equivelents of the French
> freaking over the pollution of their culture?

Well, the Imperium is so overwhelmingly stronger than any red-zoned
potential member state that it just lets the nationalists freak out
until they're all dead or bankrupt or both.  The Imperium has the
resources and the time to wait until the potential member really wants
to join -- even if it takes forever.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:49:51 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Blind Transmission

Rob Prior wrote:

> 5) Aldous Huxley summarized all the advice he gave in his life as: "Try to
> be a little kinder."  If we all (including most emphatically myself)
> follow this, we'll get along fine.

Just read this one by Delmore Schwartz, I believe:

"To be good is an activity".

One of his more famous poems is titled "In Dreams Begin Responsibility."

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:10:28 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> Bloo wrote:
>
> > in here with my view that the G ratings of most Traveller ships are waaay
> > to low.  IMTU, if you're ship can't withstand 10Gs for 10 minutes,
> > it doesn't get certified.
>
> G-comp is limited by technology.

I'm not talking about G comp.  I'm talking about the ability of a ship and
its personnel to withstand G forces, without artificial gravity or inertia
compensators.

> I'm pretty sure u're aware of that, but just
> making sure it's noted.  I'm sure limited periods of high accel are possible
> in atmosphere by craft designed for such (pulling and/or turning hard, etc),
> though I'm not sure if such is possible in space...  maybe a "slingshot"
> around a gravity well or something.

If you've got manuevering capability, it should be.

> I don't believe in "overdrive" as the
> higher accel isn't designed for (at least in FF&S and FFS2... not sure bout
> G:V).  For long periods (20min HG and 30 min BL/BR turns) the *crew* can't
> take the higher accel.

Depends on how high and whether its constant or not.

> In workstations/accel couches, you can take off 2 more
> G's of str8 accel and 1 more of evasion.  Pop in G-tanks and there's another.
> Then one more and there's a -1 Diff Mod to all actions.  Another and Bad
> Things (tm) start to happen.  So at TL-15 you're limited to 10G's max for
> straight, 9 for evasion.  Now look at how much of the ship is to M-drives.
> Note how much space is lost to the g-tanks.

Some real world G data (without G-comp, AG, inertia compensators):

You can go out right now to one of those 'fighter combat' deals where
you chase a friend around in a two-seater prop plane and pull 6Gs
for half a minute or so.  The instructors won't let you do much more
than that for safety reasons.

You can't be a US military fighter pilot unless you can maintain
control of a fighter at 9Gs for 30 seconds (and control means
active manuevering, firing, hitting buttons and switches, etc, not
just maintaining consciousness).  Some of the new equipment
still in the development though being actively tested has demonstrated
that military pilots can withstand 12Gs for 45 seconds and still
fly their plain as needed.

I forgot what the Space Shuttle does but, IIRC, its starts at 7Gs
and then gradually decelerates but is in orbit in 12 minutes.

IMHO, the way they're designed, the average Free Trader with 1G
acceleration, and presumably tolerance somewhere slightly above that,
is a daintly little balloon that I wouldn't land on a world with an atmosphere.
Even some of the more powerful ships, and I use that term loosely, are
nothing but a target in a hostile environment.  Putting them in an atmosphere
with the slightest potential for trouble is a big risk.

Heck, most modern military fighters would circles around a Rampart fighter.
Only 6Gs, in a vacuum?  Thats a target, not a fighter.

> Or do you mean for short intensity bursts?  To what end?  Evasion?  Given
> 'short intensity,' ineffective with the long range and duration of Traveller
> space combat.

How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.

Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm cannon.
Good bye Rampart.

Ok, doubt many of us do such intensive combat gaming.  But here is how
I look at it.  Ships are more valuable than their personnel.  For the manufacturer

owner, thats true.  MegaCredits are MegaCredits.  So, when it hits the fan,
I want my ship to be able to withstand more Gs than the people inside.
I can always clean the ship.

;-)
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:02:54 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

At 09:24 23/03/1999 -0600, "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> wrote:

>I don't even see that much of a problem with one plasma gun, just in case.
>Even Coast Toasties have MGs and larger deck guns.  I don't see a Scout team
>carrying the MPPG regularly, but to have as a backup, to cover the
>retreating team when everything drops in the pot, might be a good idea.
>
>However, if it is ever needed, you can bet that Scout HQ will have words for
>that team...

All this fuss over a couple of ACRs and an FGMP-15.

May I remind people that you can put several hundred megajoules
of long range fun into a single turret on the scoutship.

The problem with having an FGMP-15 but no battledress and supporting
squad of Imperial Marines is the large "shoot me now!" sign.

That and if the PCs can muster out with one, any mercenary group
they meet has a chance of having one.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:48:02 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: 

>It is unfortunate that one arrogant jerk has ruined the "taste" of the TML
for
>someone who posts quality stuff. The TML has suffered a loss with Rob's
absence.
>Speaking for me, Rob will be missed.

I agree that Rob will be missed, I didn't always agree with him, but he was an
OK guy, and contributed some useful stuff. But, I disagree we should blame
Cliff for Rob's leaving

While one can disagree with people's honest reactions to ridiculous requests,
they are still their honest reactions, and Cliff is still completely correct
when he said that we should not go round  walking on eggshells in every
subject just in case someone happens to have a hang-up over a subject. That
would effectively stifle _all_ conversation.

This is a public forum (yes I know it's a mailing list not a news group, but
it's _still_ a public forum as anyone can join, even Cliff again if he really
wanted to) and it is up to each individual to judge her ability to appear in a
public forum without risking damge to her psyche.

Rob has now made the decsion that he can't handle that, and it is his
decision. It may have come a little late,  in a perfect world he probably
should have left before this incident, but one cannot always adequately judge
one's own mental state.

I think the loss of both of them is equally bad, Rob for his existing body of
work, Cliff for the fact that he said what he thought, regardless of the
harpies amongst you,and had some good ideas.

And I feel like Escalus, Prince of Verona :

See what a scourge is laid upon you hate ,
that heaven finds a means to kill your joys with love.
And I, for winking at your discords, too
have lost a brace of kinsmen. All are punished.

Frankie





























>Erwin
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:19:14 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

>of your eye.) Also, as long as the missile is maneuvering with a fusion
>rocket it is incredibly easy to detect - you can see it halfway 
>across the solar system. So you can follow it until it shuts down its

Why should anyone use fusion missiles in Traveller at TL 9+?
- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:42:59 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:45:58 -0600 (), Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

aehm.. same like missiles..

for what is landing gear usefull in a traveller gravitics rich univers?? I realy 
don't undestand this..

Jens

Gravitics+++
- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:19:37 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: M:E21  How to colonize Prometheus

Date sent:      	Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:12:06 -0600
From:           	Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>

>Let me play with the numbers, too.

>Basic assumption 1: you can squeeze 2.5 people per ton into 1000+ dton ships.
>Basic assumption 2: a ship can make 10 round trips per year.
>Goal: move at least 60 million people in 11 years.

Well, I did some design work. Using bunks you can cram 1,000 colonists
plus 500Td of cargo (at 1.5 metric tonnes per m^3) into a 4,000Td hull at
TL 9 at a cost of MCr 1,800. When I did the figures for the initial Terran
colonisation prior to the 1st IW I assumed 10 years of colonisation and only
10 million people not born on Terra. So that gave 10 million people moved
per year. Assuming 10 round trips per year, that means you need 1,000
such ships (requiring an investment of MCr 1,800,000). A significant effort,
but within the realms of possibility.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:38:25 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Early Terran Colonial Transport

Here's my take on an early Terran jump capable colonial transport:

Charlotte Jane, Mayflower class Colonial Transport (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
 Tons: 4000 Td (AF Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic)
 Crew: 24/55
 Cargo: 500 Td (5 Large Cargo Hatches, Handling: 5 x 140 ton)
 Volume: 56000m3
 Passengers High/Med: 20/1000
 Cost: 1797.571 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 29190t/17864t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 996
 Dimensions: 67.9m x 33.7m x 33.7m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 9
 Size: 9
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Computer, High automation. 4 x Comp (CM:0.5 CP:2.0).
           Terrain following sensors (TF: 390, NOE: 130). Bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 1 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x Pas. Scanner (13.5 [16mkm], 0.2MW).
          1 x Pas. Tracker (13.5 [16mkm], 0.1MW).
          1 x AEMS (11.5 [0.5mkm], 10MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:1, IR:0.5 (0 at 200MW), Act:0.5, Neu:1, Grav:-2

Weaponry


Performance
 1 Jump (400 Td/pc fuel)
 1/1.6 Maneuver (Fusion: 0MW, 3.4 G-hours)
 0/0 Contra-grav
 1173kph/1805kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 880kph/1354kph)
 1 Power (Fusion: 2000MW, 1yr)
 0 Battery
 821.4 Fuel (Scoop: 5, Purif: 164, 4MW)
 1000/53/22/0/0 Accomodations (175 x Sanitary Fittings)
 13975 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Extended, Normal Food [Stored])
 0 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 0 [20] Armor, 28 Structure

Features
 20 x Airlock
 20 x Decontamination Airlock
 2 x Docking Umbilical
 1 x Electronic Shop (6 Td ea.)
 1 x Machine Shop (10 Td ea.)
 1 x Laboratory (8 Td ea.)
 2 x Sickbay (8 Td ea.)
 1 x Ship's locker (2 Td ea.)
 5 x Gym (2.5 Td ea.)
 5 x Full Galley (Cap: 215)

Small Craft
 1 x Spacious Hanger (100 Td, 1 hatch)

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 2 x Radio (1,000AU). 2 x Laser (1,000AU).
 Sensors:
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 2 x Helm
 17 x Engineering
 2 x Maintainance
 3 x Command
 23 x Steward
 8 x Medical


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:38:55 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gurps Books

OK, here's my list:

Must:
  Basic Set
  GURPS: Traveller
  Compendium I

Want:
  Ultra-tech
  Space
  Lots of GDW Traveller

Nice: 
  Ultra-tech II
  Illuminati  (heh, heh)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:43:27 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Mailing List

To Whom it May Concern --
  I have been inadvertantly subscribed to the Clif Mailing List.  It was my
intention to subscribe to the Traveller Mailing List.  Please give me
instructions how to correct this error.  Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:20:04 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #340

> Yes it is however that can just as easily be interpreted as meaning: we
> (GDW) are not yet ready to commit to the details of all of the Imperiums
> spy agencies, therefore we are labeling this one a variant so the refs
> can decide.  It could even be interpreted as: The
> particular details about the IRIS organization are a variant.

I didn't see the original article, but:

VARIANT = VARIAN + T

Coincidence?

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:24:12 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Stepping outside the jump-field (be right back...)

At 07:26 23/03/1999 -0800, "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
wrote:
<snip>
> When something leaves the jump-field, does it precipitate
>into normal space (probably thoroughly reduced to teeny-tiny component
>particles) or does it simply "vanish"?

IMTU, anything leaving the jump field reappears as if it had misjumped
from the starting point.
(ie random direction, random distance, random time of multiple weeks.)

Roll separately for each atom. :-)

However, being close to the edge of jumpspace can cause jump sickness
and poking a stick into jumpspace conducts that effect to the wielder.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:42:51 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Just Detected: GT T-shirts

Check out:

<http://http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/shirts.html>

Not very imaginative, but the quality should be solid.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:49:53 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Plug for IRC game

In my previous post about my IRC game, I neglected to indicate the day of
the event. (d'oh!)
We play on Thursday nights starting around 8:30pm eastern.

E-mail me or see me on undernet chanel #traveller if you are interested in
joining up with the travelling band.

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #341
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 342



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Stepping outside the jump-field (be right back...)
M:E21 Two Colony Ships (Basic Assumptions)
Re: My Wife's Yacht (Corrected Version)
max accel
Seeking Travellers in Austin, TX...
G:T Far Trader!
Ditzie animations??
Re: Guns for Characters
Re: G:T Far Trader!
Re: max accel
Re: My Wife's Yacht (Corrected Version)
Re: BayCon
Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
Re: BayCon
Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts
Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts
M:E21 World Expansion
Imperial black Ops
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Adventure seed thanks
GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...
Re: M:E21  How to colonize Prometheus
Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:21:58 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Stepping outside the jump-field (be right back...)

>
> However, being close to the edge of jumpspace can cause jump sickness
> and poking a stick into jumpspace conducts that effect to the wielder.

I like to use the expanding jump field wave to cause jump sickness.  It
expands out from the coil pretty quickly so you normally only get a brief
disorientation, but if you actually stick your head into the actual field
front for any length of time you'd likely get very scrambled physiologically
speaking.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:37:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: M:E21 Two Colony Ships (Basic Assumptions)

> From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
> Subject: M:E21  How to colonize Prometheus
> 
> Let me play with the numbers, too.
> 
> Basic assumption 1: you can squeeze 2.5 people per ton into 1000+ dton ships.
> Basic assumption 2: a ship can make 10 round trips per year.
> Goal: move at least 60 million people in 11 years.
> 
> Ships    People moved   60 million people =
>          per year       how many ships?

. . .

> 3000t     75,000         80
> 4000t    100,000         60
> 5000t    125,000         48

. . .

> 
> So I think your solution may be in 3000t and 4000t
> ships, which give you the most bang for your buck.

Thanks, Rob.  I hope this helps your M:E21 campaign as well. :)
Based on the figures presented so far, I'm looking at the average
Colony ship built along the following lines:

TL 9, 4000t, J1 (with fuel enough for two jumps), M1g, limited or no 
firepower (using escorts), storing 100,000 colonists in Cold Sleep

Additionally, smaller organizations, nations, and corporate concerns 
utilize a smaller colony ship, built along the following lines:

TL 9, 1000t, J1 (with fuel enough for two jumps), M1g, limited 
firepower, storing 25,000 colonists in Cold Sleep

I'll work on the two vessels tonight, under MT rules.  If all goes 
well, I'll post them within 24 hours.  Any other suggestions or 
thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Wait, this just in:  Andrew M-V posted his thoughts on the subject
in the most recent digest (#341), including a vessel design.  Hmmm. 
 I like the concept of not transporting the colonists in Cold Sleep,
which eliminates the problem of a consistent loss of people through
tech failures, etc.  I'd probably consider packing them into much
closer quarters, seeing how people travelled to the US during the
19th and early 20th centuries in extremely crowded conditions. 
(Easier to conjure up images from my players this way.)

So, revised criteria:  As above, but not transported under Cold 
Sleep.  Use small staterooms, and cram four to a set.  (They may even 
have to sleep in rotation.)  Ugly and not very humanitarian, but I 
don't picture Terra's early colonization efforts pre-IW as a pretty, 
happy time for lower/middle class colonists, so it fits the milieu's 
world view.

Thanks, Everyone,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:01:19 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: My Wife's Yacht (Corrected Version)

>Ooops!  Forgot one important feature....
[snip]
>***forgotten feature***
>1 x Ballroom (50 std ea)

Wow! now that's what I call conspicuous spacial consuption.  And I thought
my 8 ton "Dining Salon" to which a few players objected ("can we pack cargo
in there?","Sure, but you'll scratch up the teak") was significant "waste"
space.

A bit of advice, unless the character would never concience such a thing,
be sure to provide dimensional measurements for the entrance(s) to the
room.  They may want to sneak a cargo container in there, at which point
you can say "sorry, the entrance is 2 meters by 3 meters and a cargo
container is 4 meters by 3 meters...want to take the walls down?"

I really think you need to add a descriptive chunk of text to this ship's
description.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:11:15 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: max accel

>How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
>pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
>and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.

>Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm cannon.
>Good bye Rampart.

You're confusing the acceleration of the rampart due to it's engine
thrust (6 G) with the turning ability of the F22 - which can basically
be thought of as the ability of its wings, not its engine, to exert
a force (at right angles to its velocity) to make it turn. This is indeed
a very large number; they're big wings with a lot of air flowing over
them. However, it's apples and oranges. The acceleration that an F22's
engine provides is more like 1.5G (much less than a Rampart); and in
an atmosphere, a Rampart's wings would provide a similar turning 
ability (a reason to by airframe hulls...) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:14:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Seeking Travellers in Austin, TX...

Greetings, All,

After a much too long delay, while I prepared my current players for
the transition to another gaming system, I am pleased to announce
that the Project: StarRise M:E21 campaign is officially slated to
begin in three weeks, on Wed, 04/14/99.  The first session will be a
sample adventure using pregenerated characters, to give all players
a chance to get to know the MegaTraveller rules system (I prefer it
to T4, GT, or TNE) and each other.  On 04/21/99, I will begin with
the actual PCs and a First Contact adventure with the Vilani. 
(Barnard's Star, here we come!)

Are there any Travellers in the Austin, TX area who would be 
interested in joining us for an exploration into Terra's first steps 
into space?  If so, please feel free to write to me privately, before 
04/14/99.

Thank you for your time.  I now return you to your regularly 
scheduled thread, already in progress...

A Fellow Traveller,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:31:54 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: G:T Far Trader!

Far Trader has *finally* hit Dallas. My initial
impression is:

Deckplans of the Far Trader (Empress Marava) and
Subsidized Merchant. Helpful for newbies.

Lots of meaty material covering shipping of goods
between worlds, piracy, and ship cost of operations.
This will take some analysis of its viability.

And decent artwork. But..one inch square black and
whites of Jesse's work does *NOT* do him justice
in any way. I was really looking forward to some
full-page samples of his stuff. Shame on SJG for
not doing this on at least one page. Folks, keep
the full-size color .JPGs from Jesse's site; Far
Trader doesn't even come close to their glory.

Speaking of artwork, the one picture of a merchant
trying to sell a slaughtered chicken to the armed
K'kree soldier looking down at him made me lose it
completely. You all have *got* to see it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:37:40 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Ditzie animations??

How bout this.  Would anyone here want to put an animated Ditzie .gif on
their site?  Perhaps it would act as a link to a "Ditzie Approved"  site.
 This site would list the history of Ditzie, and FS in general.  I'd love
to see the firing Ditzie used, starting on the right side of the page,
pulling out a weapon, cocking, firing, and sliding across the screen and
off.

Whatcha think???

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:40:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Guns for Characters

Hi all.  

A couple of threads have been talking about whether characters should be
allowed high-power weapons like ACRs and FGMP-15s and the like.  I think
the solution to this is simple:  The enemies you encounter are scaled to
your firepower.  Of course, that means that if you have an FGMP, the bad
guys will too, and you'll have alot more deaths on your side in the end... 

Ciao,
Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:48:23 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader!

Mine should come via UPS on Friday...(keeping my fingers crossed)

One of the constant criticisms of SJG is the quality of the artwork in 
the books...But I'm sure that Jeese breaks this :)

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:57:20 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 07:11 24/03/1999 -0800, (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
>
>>How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
>>pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
>>and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.
>
>>Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm cannon.
>>Good bye Rampart.
>
>You're confusing the acceleration of the rampart due to it's engine
>thrust (6 G) with the turning ability of the F22 - which can basically
>be thought of as the ability of its wings, not its engine, to exert
>a force (at right angles to its velocity) to make it turn. This is indeed
>a very large number; they're big wings with a lot of air flowing over
>them. However, it's apples and oranges. The acceleration that an F22's
>engine provides is more like 1.5G (much less than a Rampart); and in
>an atmosphere, a Rampart's wings would provide a similar turning 
>ability (a reason to by airframe hulls...) 

Also, whilst the F22 pilots are killing themselves in a 12G turn or loop,
a happy fun ball is just flying along in a stright line, spinning
on its axis, pulling almost 0G, whilst keeping its weapons pointed
straight at the F22 because it does not need to generate lift
(a reason to have streamlined but non-airframe hulls...).

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:53 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: My Wife's Yacht (Corrected Version)

At 10:01 24/03/1999 -0500, "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
>>Ooops!  Forgot one important feature....
>[snip]
>>***forgotten feature***
>>1 x Ballroom (50 std ea)
>
>Wow! now that's what I call conspicuous spacial consuption.  And I thought
>my 8 ton "Dining Salon" to which a few players objected ("can we pack cargo
>in there?","Sure, but you'll scratch up the teak") was significant "waste"
>space.

Pah!

The Pioneer X exploration ship has 2 such "function rooms" on the main
ship and another in one of the pods.

What _my_ players objected to was that the Noble's stateroom was 48std
(plus another 48std in one of the pods)

After the pilot complained "The Noble's bath is bigger than my stateroom"
and threatened that the Noble would be the first to go, my only reasonable
course of action was to make Marquise Alia Usssuul (head of the Emerging
Technologies Division) a dolphin and flood the whole volume.

:-)

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:44:36 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon

Ugh, I hate it when divorces are nasty.  They're hard on all involved.
Luckily, mine was totally copacetic and she and I still e-mail each other
jokes and talk occaisionally (usually when she needs computer tech support
:)

AFAIK, Todd (Tascelt@aol.com - not to be confused with Todd Zircher), Doug
Berry, and myself will all be at BayCon.  If other TML'ers are going to be
there, please chime in!!  Beer will definately be involved ;D  If you bring
a copy of Far Trader (or First In if it prints by then) I'll sign it.
1.Stokes my ego ;) 2.Who knows, maybe it'll be worth something if I ever
start working for ILM, Digital Domain, or somebody like that.  If nothing
else, it'll be a novelty.

See ya' there!!!!
Jesse


>First, the last couple of days have been grim for me.
>
>Today I have much more prospective, and husband
>and wife team of lawyers that come highly recommended.
>
>Cheer for the the right side, the one where I can
>talk to my Soon to be Ex friendly like, and we
>share in raising my son.
>
>Thanks everybody for your support.
>
>
>NOW, Would wants to meet at BayCon?
>I would like a show of  Appendages.
>And being that I haven't seen a program
>yet when would be a good time.
>
>--
>Evyn...
>
>Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:49:28 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

For when you want to set your ship down dirtside (or anchor it to an airless
rock, etc) and power it down completely to hide.  Batteries would be
supplying power, and you wouldn't be leaking emissions.

Jesse


>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:45:58 -0600 (), Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>
>aehm.. same like missiles..
>
>for what is landing gear usefull in a traveller gravitics rich univers?? I
realy
>don't undestand this..
>
>Jens
>
>Gravitics+++
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:47:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon

>NOW, Would wants to meet at BayCon?
>I would like a show of  Appendages.
>And being that I haven't seen a program
>yet when would be a good time.

Kirsten and I will be there all weekend, so anytime will be good for us.

Might I be bold enoguh to suggest a Friday night dinner at Denny's?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:57:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts

At 06:42 AM 3/24/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Check out:
>
><http://http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/shirts.html>
>
>Not very imaginative, but the quality should be solid.

Nice enough for me to order one.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:41:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts

> >Check out:
> >
> ><http://http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/shirts.html>
> >
> >Not very imaginative, but the quality should be solid.

I want to see Jesse's Scout Courier shot against the gas giant on the back
of a black T-shirt with the red "Traveller" logo on the pocket area of the
front.

With all that AWESOME artwork laying around, they go with a plain text
T-shirt with the sunburst on it? I hope they decide to do more.

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:44:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: M:E21 World Expansion

Fellow Travellers,

I've been reviewing the World Data from Andrew M-V's Interstellar 
Wars data, trying to figure out the relative order of contact of 
various worlds during the early expansion and exploration of the 
United Nations into interstellar space.  I made the assumption that 
the Terran explorers were J-1, with enough fuel to make two jumps 
without refueling.  With this assumption, the following worlds would 
probably have been explored/contacted in the something resembling the 
order presented.  Once we reach the end of the list, the Terrans 
required either a J-1 vessel with fuel for three jumps before 
refueling, or an established Deep Space Station to serve as a 
refueling point and starting point for future explorations.  So 
without further adieu, here's a list of Terran Exploration "Waves" 
during the years 2096 to 2110AD, at least IMTU.

Wave 1: Barnard/Ikugi, Prometheus, Peraspera, Junction

Wave 2: Midway

Wave 2.5: Hades (via Midway); Ember, Loki (via Prometheus, Peraspera)

Wave 3: Hephaistos, Calgary, Inferno (via Hades); Dismal (via Loki);
Fenris (via Junction)

Wave 4: Sirius, Ys (via Fenris)

Wave 5: Encounter the Ziru Sirka borders, thus stopping expansion in 
this direction (via Sirius); Remulak, Sarpeddon (via Ys)

Wave 6: Mirabilis (via Sarpeddon) 

IMTU, each world has been credited with first survey by 
various governments in the following timeline:

Barnard: 13 Sep 2096 (by USS StarLeaper I)
Prometheus:  20 Oct 2096 (by ESS Prometheus Rising)
Peraspera:  24 Nov 2096 (by ESS Prometheus Rising)
Junction:  20 Dec 2096 (by ESS Prometheus Rising)

[Historical note: the USS StarLeaper I arrived in Junction system 
only six days after the ESA's Prometheus Rising.  The ESA's control 
over Deep Space Station Europa (SolRim 1928), combined with the 
retrieval of StarLeaper I from Barnard, allowed the ESA the upper 
hand that allowed for their first survey of Junction.  The ESS 
Prometheus Rising was lost in misjump shortly after reporting their 
findings.  Foul play is not suspected.]

Hades:  25 Apr 2097 (by USS StarLeaper I)

At this time, I have not completed the general timeline of events for 
my campaign, so the remaining worlds do not have "official" first 
survey times as yet.  Colonization, of course, begins somewhat later. 
 So far, the only colonies I have established as having been founded 
are:

US Barnard Colony (Barnard/Sol) established on 5 Aug 2097.
ESA Prometheus Colony (Prometheus/Sol) established on 15 Sep 2097.

The rest of the history is forming, so that I have a guideline to go 
by, and so that I can make sure to cover specific events with the 
players as they occur.  PCs can, of course, change the actual flow of 
events and thus, the course of history, but I'm starting with the 
"official" timeline, as augmented by Andrew M-V and Rob Eaglestone, 
as the basis for my campaign.  (Just in case they play nice and stay 
within the lines.  :)

If anyone is interested, I'll post it when it's complete.  (With the 
level of detail I'm trying to go into, it may be awhile, though.)  
It's intended to cover the time period from First Contact to the 
Barnard Incident.

I'll keep you posted.

Jason

PS The ESA's first explorer/scout vessel was named for Andrew M-V's 
campaign, of course.  Thanks for the inspiration and direction, 
Andrew.

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:47:35 PST
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Imperial black Ops

Sure the Imperium was involved in Black Ops project eg.  project Black 
Heart.  Agencies that were involved are listed in the MT' s Referee's 
Companion under intelligence agencies.  Also, do not forget that 
megacorps were especially knee-deep in Black-Op projects...if you think 
that the Imperium didn't sanction these projects just look into the 
ownership of the Megacorps.  Some noteworthy mentions of Black Op 
projects were carried out by Imperial Navy Intelligence (Signal GK and 
numerous White Dwarf adventures) and the agents of the Ministry of 
Justice (in some FASA products).
   Marc was planning a sourcebook for intelligence agencies which ought 
to have contained a variety of Special & Black Operation missions.  Does 
anyone know if this ever got published in some form eg. Challenge 
article, etc.  If not, does G:T or T5 plan to take up the gauntlet.  
Let's hope the Navy sourcebook will contain detail of the INI.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:37:11 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

I've seen this quite a lot in the group, and agree that the canon says laser
PDF
can stop kinetic missiles. Unfortunately, science says they can't, but we
are playing
a game, people, so lets stick with an agreed set of rules, eh?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 23 March 1999 18:03
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)


>
>This topic has been debated in enormous detail on this list and TTL.
>I think a fair consensus would be that in general point defence lasers
>do beat most kinetic-kill
[snip]
>>...the only way to take kinetic energy from my "warhead" is to vaporize
it,
>>and far enough from your hull that a high-velocity plasma jet doesn't
reach you
[snip]
>Sensors can detect things smaller than their resolution.
[snip]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:41:17 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Adventure seed thanks

Thanks for all the comments about the game seed I posted for an
adventure that relied on weather differences. Makes me wonder if
there is any call for the group to provide other seed ideas. What do
you all think? I could certainly use more ideas!
- -- 
Mark A Preston BSc, FIAP
Business Manager, MicroFix Systems Solutions
mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:15:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...

OK, kids.  The 2nd draft of the Grav-Ball T-Shirt design is viewable at:

    http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/gravball/

I've attempted to incorporate the posture suggestions made in response
to the 1st draft.  I'm holding off on shirt patches et.al. until we
get a layout that most everyone likes.

BTW, the eye protection on the ball carrier is going to be replaced
with something that looks more like those worn by the opponent on the
left.

Let me know if I'm on the right track!

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:13:56 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: M:E21  How to colonize Prometheus

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:12:06 -0600, Rob Eaglestone wrote:

>Let me play with the numbers, too.
>
>Basic assumption 1: you can squeeze 2.5 people per ton into 1000+ dton ships.

If you're using cold berth you need 200 Liter per colonist. Freezers should have 
been brought only ones to the target world!

- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:28:59 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

Jens Maskus wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:45:58 -0600 (), Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> aehm.. same like missiles..
> 
> for what is landing gear usefull in a traveller gravitics rich univers?? I realy
> don't undestand this..

The ship's gotta have something to sit on when it lands. I certainly
can't see them just sitting on the hull, tipped over.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:40:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

 
> I've seen this quite a lot in the group, and agree that the canon says laser
> PDF
> can stop kinetic missiles. Unfortunately, science says they can't, but we
> are playing
> a game, people, so lets stick with an agreed set of rules, eh?

Science doesn't say we can't. If you are not capable of acceleration
(or choose not to at all) they you are right, you'd have to vaporize
the slug (warhead, whatever) far enough away that the plasma is no
danger.

In reality the weapon would have to be constantly accelerating until
it is very close to the target in order to actually hit since thet
target will be acclerating or evading. So as soon as you knock out
the sensors on the missile, or its propulsion system (the former is
very easy since the sensor is fragile and *must* point at the
target) the missile will miss unless the target is not accelerating.

I think rules should include a way to deal with surprised, or
otherwise non-accelerating targets, mind you. (rule would say "BOOM,
yer dead" :-)

So the bottom line is that KKMs are fairly easy to mission kill with
PDF (damn adobe ;-), under normal combat conditions (maneuvering
target), and damn near impossible to mission kill under non-typical
conditions (coasting targets).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #342
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 343



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: Guns for Characters
Re: Ditzie animations & Official FS Website
Re: BayCon
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Just Detected: GT T-shirts
Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts
Sector Data/Second Survey
Re: wallpaper authorization
GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft
RE: unsubscribing
Jesse's Ditzie pics
Ditzie animations??
Re: max accel
Re: Jesse's Ditzie pics
Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Re: Sector Data/Second Survey
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...
Re: max accel
Re: digest and other delays in replying to threads
re: Ditzie says 'Bye Clif'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:38:51 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts

<Yawn>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:58:46 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

Merrick Burkhardt posted:
>
>So the bottom line is that KKMs are fairly easy to mission kill with
>PDF (damn adobe ;-), under normal combat conditions (maneuvering
>target), and damn near impossible to mission kill under non-typical
>conditions (coasting targets).

This leads me to the following question.

Since missiles are definitely part of Traveller,
missiles with a pumped laser warhead are more
effective than KKMs, and the Imperium won't
allow nukes, is there any other way to pump a
laser warhead to the point of making it effective
while avoiding the use of a nuke?

Sorry about the basic question but I'm not
weapons-systems literate at all.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:00:09 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

>I've seen this quite a lot in the group, and agree that the canon says laser
>PDF
>can stop kinetic missiles. Unfortunately, science says they can't, but we
>are playing
>a game, people, so lets stick with an agreed set of rules, eh?

I woudl say that science says they can too, and would be happy to debate
with you on trav-tech or off-line.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:03:38 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Guns for Characters

This is exactly one of the things that I've done in the past.  What, all you
players are Barney Badasses with Combat Armor, Battledress, High Energy
weapons, and other very large caliber weapons?  Oh, I'm sorry, you just ran
into a High Threat squad of Imperial Marines useing experimental batteldress
that is twice as good as yours, they all have FGMP's at a minimum ;) and
they really wanna' eat your lunch.  Very funny seeing players faces when you
show them a picture of a Landmate style battledress (Masamune Shirow's
Appleseed manga) armed with vehicle class RPY's etc.  VB*WEG*

Best,
Jesse

>Hi all.
>
>A couple of threads have been talking about whether characters should be
>allowed high-power weapons like ACRs and FGMP-15s and the like.  I think
>the solution to this is simple:  The enemies you encounter are scaled to
>your firepower.  Of course, that means that if you have an FGMP, the bad
>guys will too, and you'll have alot more deaths on your side in the end...
>
>Ciao,
>Charles.
>
>-----
>"Omnia intelligi possunt"
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:08:09 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie animations & Official FS Website

I'd love to see an Official Famile Spofulam website.  How about it Ian?  If
it's a matter of site hosting, don't worry about it.  It could be off of my
site as I have unlimited space / traffic with SimpleNet.

BTW, the firing .gif is a great idea and I'll do it.

Jesse




>How bout this.  Would anyone here want to put an animated Ditzie .gif on
>their site?  Perhaps it would act as a link to a "Ditzie Approved"  site.
> This site would list the history of Ditzie, and FS in general.  I'd love
>to see the firing Ditzie used, starting on the right side of the page,
>pulling out a weapon, cocking, firing, and sliding across the screen and
>off.
>
>Whatcha think???
>
>Jim Clem
>Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
>enemies.
>--Ferengi Rules of Acquisition
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:08:48 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon

Works for me.
Jesse



>
>>NOW, Would wants to meet at BayCon?
>>I would like a show of  Appendages.
>>And being that I haven't seen a program
>>yet when would be a good time.
>
>Kirsten and I will be there all weekend, so anytime will be good for us.
>
>Might I be bold enoguh to suggest a Friday night dinner at Denny's?
>-- 
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:18:25 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

Chemically pumped lasers.  I dont have any details with me at work, but
look up data on SDI, especially some of the earlier works.  Probably big,
bulky, not as effective, but better than nothing.


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:58:46 -0600 "Smart, David J (David)"
<dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>Merrick Burkhardt posted:
>>
>>So the bottom line is that KKMs are fairly easy to mission kill with
>>PDF (damn adobe ;-), under normal combat conditions (maneuvering
>>target), and damn near impossible to mission kill under non-typical
>>conditions (coasting targets).
>
>This leads me to the following question.
>
>Since missiles are definitely part of Traveller,
>missiles with a pumped laser warhead are more
>effective than KKMs, and the Imperium won't
>allow nukes, is there any other way to pump a
>laser warhead to the point of making it effective
>while avoiding the use of a nuke?
>
>Sorry about the basic question but I'm not
>weapons-systems literate at all.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:27:59 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

The weapon simply known as the "Gun"
was a revolver with six different loads:Vapor, Needler, Tangler, Homer, 
Ripper, and Nitro...
Loved that story! (and the sequel Logan's World)
Roger Barr


>---"Zane H. Healy"  wrote:
>
>> >understanding of their tools. The Sandman didn't use a snub pistol 
or
>> >dart launcher, he used a Gun. The New-You Clinic didn't have an
>autodoc
>> 
>> Yes, and what a gun, it was a six-shooter, with each chamber
>carrying a
>> different load, IIRC.  Such as "Tangler", "Ripper", etc.
> 
>You do remember correctly. Add "Homer" to the list And I believe a
>grenade
>was also there.
>
>Terry
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:28:31 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Just Detected: GT T-shirts

> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> Subject: Just Detected: GT T-shirts
> 
> Check out:
> 
> <http://http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/shirts.html>
> 

I couldn't find it, but my searches eventually got me this haiku from
Steve Jackson Games:

> The ten thousand things
> How long do any persist?
> This page, too, has gone.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:33:26 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts

At 11:28 AM 3/24/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>> Subject: Just Detected: GT T-shirts
>> 
>> Check out:
>> 
>> <http://http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/shirts.html>
>> 
>
>I couldn't find it, but my searches eventually got me this haiku from
>Steve Jackson Games:
>
>> The ten thousand things
>> How long do any persist?
>> This page, too, has gone.
>
There's a typo in that URL.  Should be:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/shirts.html



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:35:39 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Sector Data/Second Survey

Forgive me if this has been asked before...Relative newbie here :)

In the GT/CT era would civilan characters have access to all the UWP 
data in the Second Survey...so if they were traveling through the Trojan 
Reach sector then they could access world data AND location???
Does that include all sectors?

Thanks.
Mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:35:58 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: wallpaper authorization

>No prob!  Warms my heart that there are at least half a dozen systems 
out
>there (aside from the three that are mine ;) that have some of my pics 
as
>wallpapers.

Two of them are in my office bro!
:)
Roger Barr
Webmaster...
ummm...okay, Web-Apprentice
:)
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:38:38 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft

> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:15:01 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
 
> OK, kids.  The 2nd draft of the Grav-Ball T-Shirt design is viewable at:

I like it, but I still think that one of the players ought to be
upside-down.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:50:04 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: unsubscribing

Dom,
I'm sorry to hear your friend has decided to unsubscribe from the list, 
since he is such a creative and dedicated fan of Traveller.
Please let him know he will be missed, as will anyone who is willing to 
take the time to work on expanding and improving the Traveller universe.

In the future, maybe some advice can help. I stopped reading specific 
authors postings simply because of who they were and what had been said 
before. Its not perfect, but it works for me. I keep my blood pressure 
down, and rarely miss anything worthwile. Hope it helps...

Sincerely,
Roger Barr

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:54:18 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Jesse's Ditzie pics

Well Jesse,
I just have to say in my own defense about your art.
I was drooling over the FIREPOWER...
Where's the FGMP when you need one, eh Ash?
<grin>
Roger Barr
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:00:58 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Ditzie animations??

How about a Ditzie Web-ring? A bit like the Gearhead Web-ring.

"The face to launch a thousand dredgers."
Jack de Manio, a British broadcaster speaking of the actress Glenda Jackson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:56:48 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

> > G-comp is limited by technology.
> 
> I'm not talking about G comp.  I'm talking about the ability of a ship and
> its personnel to withstand G forces, without artificial gravity or inertia
> compensators.

For vehicle combat, what you're saying makes perfect sense, but not for
Traveller space combat, as we know it (general assumptions only- long range
and long duration turns).  More than 2 uncompensated G's (count G-tanks and
accel couches as compensation, as well as 'real' G comp) for 20-30 minutes at
a time.  Yeah, you might be able to survive 12G's for 45 seconds, but that's
petty compared to the scope of space combat and the same pilot will be jelly
after 30 minutes at 12Gs.

In space, you get your minute bursts of 12Gs (most of which is from lift, by
the wings and canards, etc IIRC and not from actual thrust).  I use half of my
6 on evasion and when your burst is done and you momentarily can't effectively
alter your vector, I either pop a det missile on you or zap u up to my ROF
with my laser lance.

> How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
> pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
> and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.
> 
> Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm cannon.
> Good bye Rampart.

Not when I blast your F22 from orbit with my laser lance.  Or when I blast you
from  *missile* range in the atmosphere w/ the same laser (and then the
missiles).  If i'm not completely careless, I'll know you're coming when you
take off.  I'm in a *space* fighter after all and should have some
intelligence on enemy COACC activity.

An airframed space fighter (if not a dedicated aerospace fighter), which will
get the same lift advantages that an aerospace fighter does, would be desired
if a dogfight w/ the F22 was going to be attempted.  It's much easier to fry
the F22 from far outside its own range and play a different game rather than
on the F22's terms.

Course, the Rampart as presented (excepting the 15dt RF-128 and 128-2 from
Azhanti High Lightning, which I have a good (IMO) FF&S conversion of on my
FF&S web page) in MT and BL sucks big time.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:12:52 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Jesse's Ditzie pics

Quite, though one of Ditzie's FGMP's woulda' probably holed the "Lucky
Credit" and killed all of us :)

FYI for those that have no idea what we're talking about, it's from Roger's
PBEM that I'm in.

Jesse

>Well Jesse,
>I just have to say in my own defense about your art.
>I was drooling over the FIREPOWER...
>Where's the FGMP when you need one, eh Ash?
><grin>
>Roger Barr
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:15:54 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Barr <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
: The weapon simply known as the "Gun"
: was a revolver with six different loads:Vapor, Needler, Tangler,
Homer,
: Ripper, and Nitro...
: Loved that story! (and the sequel Logan's World)


My first Ref called it an SS Gun, short for Secret Service.  I have
never read about the actual one in Logan's Run, but his was set to
recognize the user (a la Lost in Space) and would do 3d6 damage as it
self-destructed in the hands of any other user.  IIRC, his version could
not be loaded with individual rounds, like all homer, but could hold
just one of each.

Has anyone done a Traveller conversion for the Gun?  Somewhere in the
musty rearward chasms of my mind I seem to remember something similar...


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:30:59 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

>[...] is there any other way to pump a
>laser warhead to the point of making it effective
>while avoiding the use of a nuke?

[Kersnip!]

Ian, have Ditzie roll out the chemical-pumped laser-det warheads, please. ;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:36:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Sword Worlder wrote:

> My first Ref called it an SS Gun, short for Secret Service.

I believe the actual name of the organization (Sandmen) was DS (Deep
Sleep) in the film. Can't recall if it was the same in the book.

Brannon
- --
http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:43:47 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data/Second Survey

Michael McKeown wrote:
> 

> In the GT/CT era would civilan characters have access to all the UWP
> data in the Second Survey...so if they were traveling through the Trojan
> Reach sector then they could access world data AND location???
> Does that include all sectors?

Oh, yes...I would assume that UWP and location would be available as
standard library data on any ship. Whether that UWP is _accurate_ or
not, well..._that's_ a horse of a different color. IMTU, size, hydro and
atm are likely to be accurate, the others, being dependent much more on
human activity can, at best be regarded as a rough guide, Law and Gov in
particular can change quite rapidly.

Remember, the second Survey was done ca 800-1000 (IIRC) so in M1100, it
can be a least 100 years old.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:41:09 -0700
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:47:35 PST
> From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Imperial black Ops
> 
>    Marc was planning a sourcebook for intelligence agencies which ought 
> to have contained a variety of Special & Black Operation missions.  Does 
> anyone know if this ever got published in some form eg. Challenge 
> article, etc.  If not, does G:T or T5 plan to take up the gauntlet? 
> Let's hope the Navy sourcebook will contain detail of the INI.

From the SJ Games Wish List
<http://www.sjgames.com/general/author/capsules.html>:

"GURPS Traveller: Espionage 

"The Imperium is a treacherous nest of secret agents, diplomats and
operatives of organizations too black to name . . . and those are just the
locals! Once you factor in psionic Zhodani spies and fanatical Solomani
conspirators, things get really interesting. Espionage will deal with both
the public and private aspects of interstellar relations, covering
everything from the most shadowy spies to the most public (and pompous!)
ambassadors and consuls. It will describe the structure, capabilities and
resources of diplomatic corps, intelligence agencies (overt, covert and
clandestine), and terrorist and renegade groups. The practicalities of
diplomacy in a star-spanning culture will also be discussed. Finally, the
book will include advice on both espionage- and diplomacy-oriented
campaigns, adventure seeds for use in any kind of campaign, and expanded
character templates for diplomats and spies. The author of this book should
be familiar not only with GURPS Traveller, but also the original Classic
Traveller source material. 128 pages. 

"Other Notes: Espionage is definitely a working title! A book like this
certainly deserves a more exciting name, but we can't tell you more at your
current clearance level. "

They are actively soliciting proposals from anyone interested in writing
this (and other) sourcebooks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:50:46 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...

>>>>
BTW, the eye protection on the ball carrier is going to be replaced
with something that looks more like those worn by the opponent on the
left.

Let me know if I'm on the right track!

        - Mark C.
>>>>
I had the impression Grav Ball was a CONTACT sport.  While there are
contact sports that don't use a lot of equipment, I definately have the
impression of Grav Ball as one that has impact-resistant uniforms with
helmets, gloves, etc.  I would suggest something almost armor like.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:55:21 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

steve daniels wrote:

>You can't be a US military fighter pilot unless you can maintain
>control of a fighter at 9Gs for 30 seconds (and control means
>active manuevering, firing, hitting buttons and switches, etc, not
>just maintaining consciousness).  Some of the new equipment
>still in the development though being actively tested has demonstrated
>that military pilots can withstand 12Gs for 45 seconds and still
>fly their plain as needed.
>
Germany requires a pilot to maintain control at 3Gs with no flight suit.

>I forgot what the Space Shuttle does but, IIRC, its starts at 7Gs
>and then gradually decelerates but is in orbit in 12 minutes.

3Gs Max

>How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
>pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
>and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on
>me.

The F22 can at best pull 2Gs in straight flight (12Gs would be
atmospheric manuevers) the rampart would runoff an leave any current
fighter behind including any current air-to-air missle.

>Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm >cannon.

>Good bye Rampart.

Not a chance with guns

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:39:21 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: digest and other delays in replying to threads

Jesse et al,

I try to keep up with the list, honest I do.  Unfortunately, 100+ messages
take a *leetle* while to read through (no, it's not that I'm really _that_
popular, but I'm on TML, 2300 ml on OneList and a coupla' others
besides...;)
So, if I have this problem with my 'personal' stuff, what must it be like
for those of us who use one address for business and personal use?

ObTrav; Somebody receives an Email meant for someone else (for example,
DSmith21 gets mail meant for DSmith211) and misses the address cos he's got
so many messages to search through.  But then he gets a vidphone mesage
asking why 'The Target' is still alive...  Well, he _must_ be the assassin
'cos it's his Email address on the "Read Receipt"...

Jeff R.
"No, just a Zaphod Beeblebrox.  Didn't you know I come in six-packs?"
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 23 March 1999 09:57 AM
Subject: digest and other delays in replying to threads


>
>>I find it completely reprehensible that the personal attacks on him are
>>continuing *after* he has withdrawn from the list.
>
>
>Unfortunately, the _majority_ of this is caused, IMO, by the fact that some
>people are subscribed via digest mode, and others are not able to keep a
>constant eye on the list and keep up to date, like I try and primarily
>suceed in doing.
>
>Best,
>Jesse
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:47:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Ditzie says 'Bye Clif'

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:

>My gamer friends are convinced I named my second son after good ole
>Mad Gav. Just don't tell my wife....<G>
>
>"The Travellers" was one of the best comic strips ever in a gaming
>magazine.

'Nuff said. Let's Knife the Stars.

Or....

Watch out, we've got hideously accurate hero guns.

- ----

On a more serious note, I don't think that WD back then has really been
beaten in content for an RPG mag.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #343
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 344



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships
Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav
Re: Brown Bess vs BD (was: Re: Ship Classes)
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: BayCon
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: G:T Far Trader!
Re: max accel
Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts
Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: max accel
re: Max Accel
SpecWar vs. BlackOps
Re: Guns for Characters
Ditzie animations??
Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts
Hello
Re: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts
Re: Hello
The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: SpecWar vs. BlackOps
Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:59:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships

 Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:

>The problem with having an FGMP-15 but no battledress and supporting
>squad of Imperial Marines is the large "shoot me now!" sign.

That, and the radiation burns, heat damage and temporary blindness that
results from firing a plasma weapon without adequate protection.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:49:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie says "Bye Clif"-actually with ObTrav

 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>Now THAT would be a great convention game :D
>Jesse
>
>
>>Keep your eye out for 'White Dwarf', a BITS comedy adventure including the
>>Cat, Rimmer, Felix (exWD), Captain Jane A Way, and Hayes (ex WD), plus good
>>ole Mad 'Gav. Also included are an AI controlled AHL cruiser, assorted
>>Monsters, and the opening of the first McBurger chain in the Two Thousand
>>Worlds...
>>
>>And the time travel bit ;-)

It was. We ran it at GenCon Uk 97 (at 98 we ran Star Worn...). It worked a
treat, especially the bit when we took 18 of the 36 players (6 groups of
six) and simultaneously moved them to different games. Bugger to mark
though.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:26:50 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Brown Bess vs BD (was: Re: Ship Classes)

- ----------
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Brown Bess vs BD (was: Re: Ship Classes)
> Date: 24. maaliskuuta 1999 0:19
> 
- ----bzzz----

> Anybody have to data handy to compare muzzle energy of the Brown Bess
> and modern weapons?
> 
According to BTRC's 3G3 and More Guns the propellant energy of the Brown
Bess is about 1360 J, some reverse-engineering calculation from it's DV
shows it' muzzle energy is some 1250 J. 

For comparison: 
5.56 NATO 1640-1960 J (depending on TL)
.30 carbine 1320 J
.44 magnum 1270-1400 J (depending on TL)
M-19A3 1816 J (RE'd from weapon stats)
M1 carbine 1344 J (-..-)
S&W model 29 1012 J

btw. For those interested in conerting weapons from MT to G:T or vice
versa, both of aforementioned books can be used for this. (And in my
opinion the More Guns is easier to use in conversions.)

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:31:03 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com> wrote:

>So the bottom line is that KKMs are fairly easy to mission kill with
>PDF (damn adobe ;-), under normal combat conditions (maneuvering
>target), and damn near impossible to mission kill under non-typical
>conditions (coasting targets).

Mental note - load CT computer with Acrobat Exchange, not Anti-Missile.

How many CPU slots does Exchange take?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:27:41 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: BayCon

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>AFAIK, Todd (Tascelt@aol.com - not to be confused with Todd Zircher), Doug
>Berry, and myself will all be at BayCon.  If other TML'ers are going to be
>there, please chime in!!  Beer will definately be involved ;D  If you bring
>a copy of Far Trader (or First In if it prints by then) I'll sign it.
>1.Stokes my ego ;) 2.Who knows, maybe it'll be worth something if I ever
>start working for ILM, Digital Domain, or somebody like that.  If nothing
>else, it'll be a novelty.

Sounds like an event where NATS or HIWG should run some demos ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:34:30 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

j a c posted:

>Chemically pumped lasers.  I dont have any details with me at work, but
>look up data on SDI, especially some of the earlier works.  Probably big,
>bulky, not as effective, but better than nothing.

and Joseph R. Dietrich posted:

>Ian, have Ditzie roll out the chemical-pumped laser-det warheads, please.
;-)

Dang it, I *knew* I was being brain-dead!

(sounds of beating my head against my desk)

Thanks for the info, guys. I'm cracking my copy of FFS2
as soon as I get home.

(After all the TNE scenarios I've played, I *can't*
 believe I forgot about chem lasers.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:48:35 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> You're confusing the acceleration of the rampart due to it's engine
> thrust (6 G) with the turning ability of the F22 - which can basically
> be thought of as the ability of its wings, not its engine, to exert
> a force (at right angles to its velocity) to make it turn. This is indeed
> a very large number; they're big wings with a lot of air flowing over
> them. However, it's apples and oranges. The acceleration that an F22's
> engine provides is more like 1.5G (much less than a Rampart); and in
> an atmosphere, a Rampart's wings would provide a similar turning
> ability (a reason to by airframe hulls...)

I HATE it when I confuse it.  Bad example.

I'll stick by what I said about a ship being able to withstand lots of
Gs though.  :-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:41:54 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

 TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:


>Not when I blast your F22 from orbit with my laser lance.  Or when I blast you
>from  *missile* range in the atmosphere w/ the same laser (and then the
>missiles).  If i'm not completely careless, I'll know you're coming when you
>take off.  I'm in a *space* fighter after all and should have some
>intelligence on enemy COACC activity.

Or I ram you taking advantage of my space grade armour, or I use contragrav
to VIFF and get behind you (like the Harrier), or do other things a grav
drive ship can do.

Or, if I'm HEPlaR driven, I let you get behind me, real close, and give you
heat seekers something to aim at ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:50:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader!

Michael McKeown wrote:

> Mine should come via UPS on Friday...(keeping my fingers crossed)
>
> One of the constant criticisms of SJG is the quality of the artwork in
> the books...But I'm sure that Jeese breaks this :)

If wish I'd had some influence.  Jesse's Empress Marava would have been on

the cover.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:53:18 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Phil Kitching wrote:

> At 07:11 24/03/1999 -0800, (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
> >
> >>How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
> >>pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
> >>and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.
> >
> >>Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm cannon.
> >>Good bye Rampart.
> >
> >You're confusing the acceleration of the rampart due to it's engine
> >thrust (6 G) with the turning ability of the F22 - which can basically
> >be thought of as the ability of its wings, not its engine, to exert
> >a force (at right angles to its velocity) to make it turn. This is indeed
> >a very large number; they're big wings with a lot of air flowing over
> >them. However, it's apples and oranges. The acceleration that an F22's
> >engine provides is more like 1.5G (much less than a Rampart); and in
> >an atmosphere, a Rampart's wings would provide a similar turning
> >ability (a reason to by airframe hulls...)
>
> Also, whilst the F22 pilots are killing themselves in a 12G turn or loop,
> a happy fun ball is just flying along in a stright line, spinning
> on its axis, pulling almost 0G, whilst keeping its weapons pointed
> straight at the F22 because it does not need to generate lift
> (a reason to have streamlined but non-airframe hulls...).

Well, it was a bad example.  But . . .
The F22 pilots aren't killing themselves in 12 G turns today,
at least with the experimental equipment, and certainly won't
be at higher TLs.  And the Rampart isn't going to hit anything
because its hull mounted lasers point forward.  Where the
enemy isn't likely to be for long.

>
>
> Phil Kitching
>
> --
>   Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>   Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
>  "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:54:39 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts

"Brannon W. Boren" wrote:

> I want to see Jesse's Scout Courier shot against the gas giant on the back
> of a black T-shirt with the red "Traveller" logo on the pocket area of the
> front.
>
> With all that AWESOME artwork laying around, they go with a plain text
> T-shirt with the sunburst on it? I hope they decide to do more.

The problem with real art on a T-shirt is
1) its more expensive, and
2) One person's Sulieman is another person's Donsonev.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:58:27 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...

I quick note.

Collars.  Not a good idea.  Ask anyone who plays Rugby.
Rugby has them for tradition, I guess.  Smart players tuck
them under, I think Rugby League for rid of them.

It hurts to be tackled by them.  I think the future would learn.

Bloo

Mark Cook wrote:

> OK, kids.  The 2nd draft of the Grav-Ball T-Shirt design is viewable at:
>
>     http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/gravball/
>
> I've attempted to incorporate the posture suggestions made in response
> to the 1st draft.  I'm holding off on shirt patches et.al. until we
> get a layout that most everyone likes.
>
> BTW, the eye protection on the ball carrier is going to be replaced
> with something that looks more like those worn by the opponent on the
> left.
>
> Let me know if I'm on the right track!
>
>         - Mark C.
>           Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>           EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>           NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>           Front Sight First Family member #1
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
>  2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
>  Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
>     you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
>     --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
>     (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
>     (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:59:00 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:34:30 -0600 "Smart, David J (David)"
<dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>Dang it, I *knew* I was being brain-dead!
>
>(sounds of beating my head against my desk)
>
>Thanks for the info, guys. I'm cracking my copy of FFS2
>as soon as I get home.
>
>(After all the TNE scenarios I've played, I *can't*
> believe I forgot about chem lasers.)
>


Dont feel bad.  I make it a practice to be brain dead at least two hours
a day.

8^)

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:04:31 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles R Hensley wrote:

> steve daniels wrote:
>
> Germany requires a pilot to maintain control at 3Gs with no flight suit.

IIRC, that test is part of the application process.  If you can't do that,
they don't even take your papaerwork.

> >I forgot what the Space Shuttle does but, IIRC, its starts at 7Gs
> >and then gradually decelerates but is in orbit in 12 minutes.
>
> 3Gs Max

That doesn't jive with what I've heard.  It could still be right of course.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:00:18 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Max Accel

Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, it was a bad example.  But . . .
The F22 pilots aren't killing themselves in 12 G turns today,
at least with the experimental equipment, and certainly won't
be at higher TLs.  And the Rampart isn't going to hit anything
because its hull mounted lasers point forward.  Where the
enemy isn't likely to be for long.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If I shoot you with a speed-of-light weapon while at the outer limits of
your radar range, using a fire control system capable of hitting
things at light-second ranges, you should be in front of me long enough.

Never play the enemy's game when you can play and win your own
before they even get a move.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:01:13
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: SpecWar vs. BlackOps

There seems to be some confusion about the difference between Special
Warfare and Black Operations.

Specwar is things like SEAL Teams going in and kidnapping a NVA General
from his own HQ.

Black Ops is killing a civilian leader during peacetime.

The difference is that you never want a black op to see the light of day.
It's something that has to be done (or so the authorities think), but would
cause a very negative reaction in public circles.

Since most military types tend to be somewhat idealisitc, they make poor
canidates for these missions.  A slightly sociopathic Scout, on the other
hand...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:57:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Guns for Characters

Several years a go, a player rolled a Weapon for his soon-to-be ex-Marine.
He demanded a high-energy weapon, quoting at length from JTAS, Striker, and
other sources that that's what a Marine would be carrying, and pointing out
his own HE-Weapons-4 skill.

So I a gave him what he wanted.  He got a brand-spanking new Plasma Gun,
Man-Portable-13.

Which has to be plugged into a suit of battledress to fire.

Pity there wasn't a "Armor" listing on the mustering out tables...


Damn, but I'm evil.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:08:25 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Ditzie animations??

Well, the Gearhead ring does cover weapons design.  
I do keep several different ring code designs there
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/gearheadring.html (plug, plug).

I'd be glad to add Ditzie inspired ring graphics.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:03:20 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT T-shirts

I'll gladly provide artwork to SJG for one of each :D
Jesse


>"Brannon W. Boren" wrote:
>
>> I want to see Jesse's Scout Courier shot against the gas giant on the
back
>> of a black T-shirt with the red "Traveller" logo on the pocket area of
the
>> front.
>>
>> With all that AWESOME artwork laying around, they go with a plain text
>> T-shirt with the sunburst on it? I hope they decide to do more.
>
>The problem with real art on a T-shirt is
>1) its more expensive, and
>2) One person's Sulieman is another person's Donsonev.
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:43:01 -0500
From: "Hopper, Jim" <JHopper@software.rockwell.com>
Subject: Hello

I am new to this list, so please excuse the ignorance.

I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most of you are playing the latest/greatest(?).

Thanks,
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:51:09 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Garbage / Lanthium / Exterior Mounts

Dear Folks -

Joe wrote:
>I've made this suggestion numerous times.  Use a combination of grid
>and coil technology.

Wow! Best idea I've yet seen for aligning the various j-drive
"explanations". Now we just need to tie the mechanics together - eg.
     - the DGP rule that "more than 40% [?] of hull destroyed increases
       the likelihood of a misjump".
     - whether its possible to compensate for damage by "overdriving"
       a j-drive in a jump smaller than the drive's rating.
     - some sort of rule covering inefficient grids, as those of a jump
       ship wrapping its cables around cargo or if you forego the grid
       and just use the bubble to enclose your external cargo.

[Actually - you *did* mention this idea back in digest #92, this year.]
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:03:53 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Hello

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Hopper, Jim <JHopper@software.rockwell.com>
: I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most of
you are playing the latest/greatest(?).

Well, CT _is_ the greatest ;-) but we are a mixed bag on here.  I'm a
crusty old CT fart who liked T4 (serious minority) but dislikes T:TNE.
I'm somewhat cool on MegaTraveller, too.  I'm following the GURPS
Traveller releases / developments, but don't have any interest in the
rules.  Though all milieux are represented on the TML, there seem to be
a fairly large contingent of CT folks.


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:26:15 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

The Warrant of Restoration grants citizenship (in essence) to any
sophont native to the Imperium, and to immigrants swearing
allegiance.  It also bars chattel slavery, which would be defined
(roughly) as the holding of a sophont in involuntary servitude
and regarding said sophont as property.

The subject line is a giveaway.  The question that is being led
up to is "how do you define 'sophont'?".
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:35:18 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: SpecWar vs. BlackOps

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> There seems to be some confusion about the difference between Special
> Warfare and Black Operations.
>
> Specwar is things like SEAL Teams going in and kidnapping a NVA General
> from his own HQ.
>
> Black Ops is killing a civilian leader during peacetime.

Thats only 'illegal' in US law.  And even then, its not really a 'law' but
an executive order, which has the force of law, until it is revoked.

'Illegal' and 'Black' are different things, but I can envisage a scenario
when you would want it known that you had someone assassinated.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:27:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...

Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>s writes:

> I like it, but I still think that one of the players ought to be
> upside-down.

OK, I'll fiddle around with that and see if I can produce something
suitable.

Joseph Kimball <HPJKimba@ihc.com> writes:

> I had the impression Grav Ball was a CONTACT sport.  While there are
> contact sports that don't use a lot of equipment, I definately have the
> impression of Grav Ball as one that has impact-resistant uniforms with
> helmets, gloves, etc.  I would suggest something almost armor like.

I agree that GravBall is probably a contact sport, but I've always
equated it to Rugby rather than American football, and we all know
how much protective gear rugby players wear! :^)

Aside from the specifics of the game itself, it's extremely difficult
for me to add the kind of armored uniforms you suggest in Poser.  The
application simply doesn't have the capability w/o me understanding
it *MUCH* better and then generating new articulated meshes for the 
for the "actors".  Sorry 'bout that.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #344
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 25 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 345



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Q-Ships
re: Max Accel
Re: SpecWar vs. BlackOps
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Youth for Classic Traveller
Re:  G:T Far Trader!
My Wife's Even Newer Yacht (It's her money....)
Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Thanks Again!
Re: BayCon
IRIS
Re: BayCon
Re: BayCon
Re: IRIS
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
GT ship, Blockade runner
Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...
Re: BayCon
Re: BayCon
Re: BayCon
Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:48 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Q-Ships

Dear Folks -

Just a minor quibble with Glenn's comment:
>The Imperium doesn't allow commerce raiding as part of such
>warfare, because it impinges on the Imperial Navy's total
>domination of space.

Actually, this is an interference with free trade, and as such specifically
protected by the Warrant of Restoration.

This is why piracy is outlawed (commerce raiding is just "legalised"
piracy).

As I said, it's only a minor quibble, because the effect is the same!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:43:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: re: Max Accel

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Walter Smith wrote:

> If I shoot you with a speed-of-light weapon while at the outer limits of
> your radar range, using a fire control system capable of hitting
> things at light-second ranges, you should be in front of me long enough.
> 
> Never play the enemy's game when you can play and win your own
> before they even get a move.

Oh, GREAT.  Just freakin' GREAT.  

We're so ADVANCED on this list.  Maturing at RELATIVISTIC GODDAMN SPEEDS.
Having COMPLETELY OUTGROWN the childish squabbles of battleships vs.
fighters, we're now tackling the SERIOUS ISSUE of space vs. atmospheric
fighters and which one's willy is bigger.  SPIFFY.

Kenji
(giggling not marked)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:57:51 -0700
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: SpecWar vs. BlackOps

> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:01:13
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: SpecWar vs. BlackOps
> 
> There seems to be some confusion about the difference between Special
> Warfare and Black Operations.
> 
> The difference is that you never want a black op to see the light of day.
> It's something that has to be done (or so the authorities think), but
would
> cause a very negative reaction in public circles.
> 

Douglas is right, the distinction is based on who takes the credit or blame
for the operation:

"white" operations -- I admit that I did it.
"black" operations -- I deny that I did it, and try to hide it if possible.
"gray" operations -- I try to make it look as if someone else did it.

There is also the overt/covert/clandestine distinction:

overt -- everyone knows about it; I wear my regular uniform (SF trains
troops in El Salvador)
covert -- no one is supposed to know about it, but I still wear my uniform
(SEALs recon Kuwait City)
clandestine -- no one is supposed to know about it, and I don't wear a
uniform at all
	(CIA supplies Stinger missiles and training to the Mujahideen)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:07:15 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com> wrote:
> 
> >So the bottom line is that KKMs are fairly easy to mission kill with
> >PDF (damn adobe ;-), under normal combat conditions (maneuvering
> >target), and damn near impossible to mission kill under non-typical
> >conditions (coasting targets).
> 
> Mental note - load CT computer with Acrobat Exchange, not Anti-Missile.
> 
> How many CPU slots does Exchange take?
> 
<tongue-in-cheek>

Interesting question.

Let's see.  Looking in the current copy of _PC Magazine_ [Volume 18,
Number 7, dated April 6, 1999], I find the Sony VAIO Slimtop desktop PC
on page 48.  The CPU measures 3.5" x 11" x 13.2".  Converting to metric
gives us (approximately) 8.9cm x 27.9cm x 33.5cm, or 8320cm^3.  One m^3
equals 1,000,000cm^3.  Therefore, one can fit approximately 120 VAIO
Slimtop CPUs into one m^3.  Since 1 dton equals 14m^3, this means that
one can fit approximately 1680 VAIOs in one dton.  Let's allow some room
for I/O devices, displays, and operator seating, and assume 1000 VAIOs,
with ancillary equipment, per dton.

Now, the VAIO Slimtop is powered by a Pentium III running at 500 MHz,
with 128 MB of SDRAM, and sports a 10.8 GB hard disk.  Surely this can
run the Windows version of Acrobat Exchange.

A Model 1/bis computer from CT, requiring 1 dton of space, can handle 4
CPU slots worth of programs.  Therefore, Acrobat Exchange requires no
more than 4/1000, or 1/250, or .004 CPU slot.

As a result, you can, by running 250 windows worth of Acrobat Exchange
in one CPU slot, destroy 250 missiles per turn.

</tongue-in-cheek>

> Dom

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:24:02 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

> The Warrant of Restoration grants citizenship (in essence) to any
> sophont native to the Imperium, and to immigrants swearing
> allegiance.  It also bars chattel slavery, which would be defined
> (roughly) as the holding of a sophont in involuntary servitude
> and regarding said sophont as property.
> 
> The subject line is a giveaway.  The question that is being led
> up to is "how do you define 'sophont'?".

The question is, of course, guaranteed to have gray areas. 
Those gray areas are where all sorts of adventures can grow. 
:)

MT World Builder's Handbook does address the question. This 
is apparently a major part of the survey job of the IISS. 

From WBH:
"Imperial xenologists find that three areas of development
must interact to bring a species to the level labeled as 
'sentient'. These are: language, social structure, and 
tools (environmental manipulation, in whatever manner is
physically possible for that specific race)."

It then goes on to describe different levels of language,
considered as evidence of conceptual thought; of social 
structure, and of tool use. Various unusual cases and 
exceptions are mentioned. I'm not typing the rest of it 
in. :)

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:33:19 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Youth for Classic Traveller

Apropos of the Ditzie Discussions and an earlier 
discussion of hereditary effects on character development, 
I dug up and typed in a system I put together some years
ago for detailing what happens to a Classic Traveller 
character between the ages of 6 and 18.  

It tends to produce primary characteristics comparable 
on the average to simply rolling 2D each. However, it 
additionally can give career-ready/18-year-old characters 
some small amount of skills and loot.

I may make some modifications in the near future, but 
the essentials are there:

http://www.rahul.net/kaleja/youth.html

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:29:17 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re:  G:T Far Trader!

David Smart <dasmart@lucent.com> sez,

>Speaking of artwork, the one picture of a merchant
>trying to sell a slaughtered chicken to the armed
>K'kree soldier looking down at him made me lose it
>completely. You all have *got* to see it.

Thanks! Glad you like it.

My title for that image was "Dead Meat". ;)

Best,

Glenn

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in trade paperback from Tor Books
          Watch for _Northern Suns_ in April 1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:55:58 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: My Wife's Even Newer Yacht (It's her money....)

As I mentioned before, my main character's wife (M:1100, Spinward
Marches) came into truly obscene amounts of money.  The yacht I posted
earlier was her first ship to celebrate her new-found freedom (a.k.a.
"new-found wealth").  However, the Baroness Margaret decided that a TL15
ship would better fill her needs.  In addition, a TL15 yacht design
would be marketable to the Imperial Navy as a VIP transport or (by
replacing the ballroom with a Combat Information Center) a C^3I ship. 
This market would only be enhanced by the ship's impressive sensor and
ECM suite, and stealthing/EMM masking, all of which were originally
intended to help the Noble purchaser avoid pirates.  Of course, for
Naval purchases, the stock Chameleon coating can easily be replaced by
Ultra-Black.  The design already sports a useful self-defense armament,
in the form of two high-capacity laser turrets plus two sandcasters. 
Taking all this into account, she commissioned the following design:

Electra III-class Yacht

Tons: 1000 std (SL Needle Hypersonic) 
Dimensions: 174.9 m x 17.6 m x 17.6 m
Volume: 14000 m3
Cargo: 21 std (1 hatches, Hdl: 1 x 10 t) 
Mass (L/C): 6473 t / 5780 t 
Maintenance Points: 217
Passengers High/Med: 16/0 
Crew: 6 / 15 
Frozen Watch: 0
Cost: 824.064 MCr (cost reflects a multiplier of 1.1)
Tech Level: 15
Size: 9 

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, High automation. 3 x FltComp (CM: 0.2 CP: 5.0). 3
xFibComp (CM: 0.2 CP: 5.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190).
No Bridge.
Communications: 3 x Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 6 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (13.5 [16 mkm], 0.01 MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5 mkm] LP, .5
MW). 1 xLIDAR (15 [2 mkm], 2.5 MW).
Survey/Science: None
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (11, .39 MW). 
1xPas. Jammer (15, .76 MW).
Signatures: Vis:-.5, IR: -.5 (-1 at 939 MW, -1 at 108 MW), Act:-.5,
Neu:-1, Grav:1

Performance 
4 Jump (100 std/pc fuel) 
4 / 4.4 Maneuver (Thruster: 643 MW)
1 / 1.1 Contra-grav (105 MW)
4512 kph/4732 kph Atmosphere Maximum 
3384 kph/3549 kph Atmosphere Cruise 
2 Power (Fusion: 1075 MW,1yr) 
0 Battery
407.7 Fuel (Scoop:5 /Purif:24 hrs, 7 MW) 
0/32/0/8 Accomodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low Berth) 
640 Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Excellent Food/Storage) 
4 G-Comp 
2 Sandcasters (AV: 97 / Cans: 39)
10 [29] Armor, 22 Structure 

Weapons (300,000km range bands) 
1 x 61-Mj Laser Turret (+6) 1/2-2-2-2 [1,400/20-20-20-20] 400 rof (PD
rof:  800)

Features
10 x Airlock 
0x Decontamination Airlock 
1 x  Sickbay (8std ea.) 
1x Ship's locker (.5 std ea.) 
1 x Armory (1.14 std ea.) 
1 x Gym (2.5 std ea.)
1 x Full Galley (Cap: 32 each) 
1 x Ballroom (70 std ea.)


Small Craft
1 x Minimal Hangar (4 std, 1 hatch) 
1 x Spacious Hangar (30 std, 1 hatch)



Backups 
Drives: None 
Screens: None
Communications: None 
Sensors: None
ECM: None 
Power & Fuel: None 


Crew Details 2 x Maneuver. 3 x Engineering. 2 x Gunnery. 2 x Screen. 2 x
Flight.
1 x Command. 2 x Steward . 1 x Medical.
 

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:13:36 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

>My first Ref called it an SS Gun, short for Secret Service.  I have
>never read about the actual one in Logan's Run, but his was set to
>recognize the user (a la Lost in Space) and would do 3d6 damage as it
>self-destructed in the hands of any other user.  IIRC, his version could
>not be loaded with individual rounds, like all homer, but could hold
>just one of each.

That's the Logan's Run gun down to a 'T'.  The cylinder was a throw away as
I recall that was tossed when you were done with it.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:16:03 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Thanks Again!

As of this posting (2115 hours, CST), my Traveller page is the
most-visited part of my Web page.  I hope that this means that y'all
like the ships I'm posting there....

Based on the feedback I've received from TMLers, I'll start posting HG2
designs to my Web site, to supplement the T4 ships there.  (I'll let you
know when I do so.)  I'll also post many of my designs here, in text
format, in addition to posting them on my Web site, in both RTF and .zip
spreadsheet formats.

Again, thanks for supporting AuricTech Shipyards.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:34:37 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: BayCon

Jes and I will be at BayCon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:00:01 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: IRIS

Strephon was using in spook lingo what we call "plausible deniability".

"Plumbers, what Plumbers?"

"We have no knowledge of such actions and deny any connection to this
agency."

"The Owls are not what they seem."

"I am not here, I have never been here."

"I can neither confirm nor deny."

IRIS Agent Daelus Quiper

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:36:26 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: BayCon

as always, the more in the hotel room, the cheaper it is. -)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:38:53 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: BayCon

ah denny's, fine american cuisine.  TMLers shall invade.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:51:04 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: IRIS

At 11:00 PM 3/24/99 +0000, you wrote:

>"The Owls are not what they seem."

Ever since the damn epsiode when that line was uttered by the Log Lady
(IIRC), I have wanted an explanation!  -sigh- But then it got cancelled.
Bummer.



Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:07:14 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: Hello

Jim Hopper wrote:

>I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT,
> or if most of you are playing the latest/greatest(?).

I am a die-hard CT fan, and play primarily CT with DGPs task system. I've
used material from all the editions, but primarily rely on CT.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/ - AIM: Iowa Akins  |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AIM: CMS AndyA   |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:15:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Hello

From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: Hello


>>I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT,
>> or if most of you are playing the latest/greatest(?).
>I am a die-hard CT fan, and play primarily CT with DGPs task system. I've
>used material from all the editions, but primarily rely on CT.


    I use the MT & CT rules to run my game.  I love the CT setting & about
half of the rules, but, I like the way you can use, in MT, Free Traders to
take on tanks.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:19:08 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

> From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)

> The Warrant of Restoration grants citizenship (in essence) to any
> sophont native to the Imperium, and to immigrants swearing
> allegiance.  It also bars chattel slavery, which would be defined
> (roughly) as the holding of a sophont in involuntary servitude
> and regarding said sophont as property.
> 
> The subject line is a giveaway.  The question that is being led
> up to is "how do you define 'sophont'?".

That's a very good question, and I'm not going to answer it (at least
not with until His Imperial Majesty flips the meter on so that I'll get
my Cr300/hour for legislative drafting).  I think that the definition
will be in an early Imperial edict, rather than some other source of
law, and I'm sure that Cleon and especially his legal/political staff
will have spent some time thinking hard about it.  

Here are some issues that I would raise (in no particular order) if I
were privileged to participate in those meetings:

1)  We humans and the other major races all include self-awareness as an
essential characteristic of a sophont.  Is that objectively reasonable?  

2)  Assuming that it is, what level of self-awareness is required?  How
can it be quantified?

3)  The roots of sophont are the Greek words "sophos", meaning "clever",
and "sophia", meaning "skill".  Does that help our analysis?

4)  Aside from self-awareness, what other characteristics make up a
sophont?  Abstract reasoning?  Linguistic processing?  Tool making? 
Economic life?  Planning for the future?  Must all characteristics be
present, or can the presence of some or even only one be enough?  How
can they be measured?

5)  Political issues:  Who's going to decide each new case?  Who will
advocate for and against Imperial citizenship?  With respect to old
cases, does Cleon have supporters who practice slavery and need to have
their slaves deemed non-sophonts?  Is Cleon willing to do this, or would
he consider it better to alienate the slave-holders and get the support
of the ex-slaves?

Thanks, Jeff, for opening a really interesting and important line of
inquiry.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:32:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: GT ship, Blockade runner

This is a highly specialized vehicle used to take small cargos up to 21
parsecs without refueling.  It does this the same way that the multistage
rockets of ancient times got into orbit with their primitive technology,
dropping off uneeded bits as one goes along.  A small core with (in
addition to crew quarters, cargo/low berths, etc.) a jump drive capable of
moving the ship one parsec is surround by demountable fuel tanks.  It jumps
1 parsec and then drops off the now empty tankage, thereby reducing the
ship volume.  It then jumps again as a smaller volume ship, using less fuel
on each subsequent jump.  Since one use of this is to reach systems trapped
behind the lines, I call it a "blockade runner".  It might also be used to
jump small rifts.  In either case it won't carry much more than news,
orders, the most vital supplies, etc.

The ship contains a Core with
2 staterooms (to hold a pilot, navigator, and engineer), 8 spaces; a basic
bridge module, 2.5 spaces; 1 engineering module, 1 space; 20 jump drive
modules, 20 spaces; 10 maneuver modules, 10 spaces, 2 utility modules, 2
spaces; and 66 tons of cargo space for cargo and/or low berths.  The fuel
tankage is as follows....
Tankage      Jumps since departure
891            1
791            2
701            3
620            4
547            5
481            6
422            7
369            8
321            9
278           10
240           11
205           12
173           13
145           14
120           15
97            16
76            17
58            18
41            19
26            20
13            21

It has an unstreamlined hull and can do Jump-1 and 0.5 Gs.  It masses 1863
tons.  It is not clear how you handle demountable tanks, but I assumed it
wouldn't change the volume significantly but double the cost of the jump
drive.  That puts the cost at 334 MCr and replacement of the tankage at 204
MCr.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:44:39 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...

>OK, kids.  The 2nd draft of the Grav-Ball T-Shirt design is viewable at:
>
>Let me know if I'm on the right track!

Looks like the guy on the left is winding up for a side kick !

And I agree with Steve about the collars.

Though I'd disagree with the armour as medical technology is good enough to
replace most damage
Possibly head protection though.

Sorry, I didn't find any good shots of Aeroball from the old 2000AD, it was a
slightly different game, and most of the shots  are side on.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:04:37 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Ugh, I hate it when divorces are nasty.  They're hard on all involved.
> Luckily, mine was totally copacetic and she and I still e-mail each other
> jokes and talk occaisionally (usually when she needs computer tech support
> :)

Well she finally contacted me today, killed her with kindness, told herI still
loved her, and if we couldn't be married, then friends who
happened to share a wonderful son was more than enuff.

Besides, after all she gave the gift of my freedom after 18 mon. of
hell. But she'll never know.

> AFAIK, Todd (Tascelt@aol.com - not to be confused with Todd Zircher), Doug
> Berry, and myself will all be at BayCon.

Gypsycomet, said he might be presuaded.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:08:33 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >NOW, Would wants to meet at BayCon?
> >I would like a show of  Appendages.
> >And being that I haven't seen a program
> >yet when would be a good time.
>
> Kirsten and I will be there all weekend, so anytime will be good for us.
>
> Might I be bold enoguh to suggest a Friday night dinner at Denny's?

Okay, that looks good.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:12:45 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon

Tascelt@aol.com wrote:

> as always, the more in the hotel room, the cheaper it is. -)

 Ahhh, I'll only show for a while the MacDudes are still getting
there acts together and I may have other events.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:15:08 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: GravBall T-Shirt: 2nd draft...

Mark Cook wrote:

> OK, kids.  The 2nd draft of the Grav-Ball T-Shirt design is viewable at:

Looks better, right track.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #345
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 25 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 346



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Future psychology (was Re: why cant you children grow up?)
Re: max accel
FF&S3 Question
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Q-ships/Imperial Rules of War
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: max accel
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Re: (Fusion) Guns for Characters
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:20:34 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Future psychology (was Re: why cant you children grow up?)

> At what tech level does mental illness become a thing of the past? How
> expensive is it? What are the ethical questions involved? What happens when
> a high-tech society decides that certain traits -- traits that we might
> consider "individual" -- are actually disorders that need to be treated?

These are, BTW, not questions that apply only to Traveller, but which apply
right now in the real world.

Many people consider Down Syndrome such a disorder, and there is some research
suggesting that a true genetic "cure" could be produced.

But at the same time it has been shown that when the stigma of being
"retarded" is removed and people with DS are treated normally and their
special dietary and other requirements are catered for , they are quite
capable of living a productive healthy life, and even competing succesfully
against so-called "normal" people in intellectual pursuits.

The big question here is whether _anyone_  has the right to "cure" something
that is a natural occurence, and produces unique individuals who do not
"suffer".

Personally I believe that any attempt to "fix" such disorders will in the long
term reduce the capability of he human genome to survive, in the same way that
vegetables highly modified for cloour taste and yield are less able to
survibve in the wild. Similalry any attempt to modify mental health will, I
believe, have the same effect.

Sure, you'll get local maxima, where say a eugenics-based culture rises above
others, but I contend that they will be  local maxima, and ultimately slow or
prevent full development.

It's no coincidence that there is a stereotype of "mad professors", I would
suggest that the vast majority of those who have serioulsy advanced our
science, technology and culture, have been at least borderline psychotic if
not completely loony by "average man" standards.

Sometimes their insanity is of a form that we can admire, such as say, Jesus,
Ghandi or Martin Luther King,
but without all ends of the many mental spectrums, humanity as a whole becomes
weaker and less able to survive whatever the universe throws at us.


> Sufficiently advanced techonology might even be able to affect mental
> capacity. What would it be like to visit a world where everyone had an INT
> of F?

I suspect that while such enhancements would allow a futuristic person to
_seem_ more intelligent than say a modern person, they wouldn't really make
people "more intelligent", they'd just be able to pass IQ tests better, and
find info faster, etc. Coming up with ideas...  well I suppose if the ability
to have ideas one day becomes tracked down to some hormone level....

And in fact, enhanced technology is having the reverse effect on the United
States, where all measures of intelligence are decreasing, and the decline in
"native" US intelligence is only just being  offset by imports of highly
intelligent people from India and Eastern Europe.

One reasoning  behind this is that people don't need intelligence to survive
in Western countries anymore, so it no longer serves an evolutionary purpose
and is thus being "bred out"

To keep it on topic, this might well explain all those stupid things in
Traveller like drop tanks and inefficient X-boat routes, the reason they
haven't been though of is because the average Imperial intelligence is far
lower than it is now, because they didn't need it. It would also explain the
huge devastation of the Long Night and then later the Virus. The Long noght
caused people to start getting intelligent again, but when they suceeded in
getting the Third Imperium, they didn't need it anymore and lost it, so that
when Virus came along.....

Well, alright it;s pushing it a bit, but all that low passaging must have had
some affect on the Imperium's average IQ   :-)

Then there' sthose that feel the reason for humanity is to create our
successors out of silicon, such as Hans Moravec. He might be right.

Anyone ever consider that Virus was the good guys ?

Frankie




> IIRC, someone on the list (Robert?) wrote a piece on psychology at future
> tech levels. Is this still in electronic form somewhere where I might get
> at it? I can't seem to find it on my hard disk. :-( >>
>
>sounds very Zhodani to me citizen...:-)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:13:52 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 16:53 24/03/1999 -0500, Steve Daniels wrote:
>
>Well, it was a bad example.  But . . .
>The F22 pilots aren't killing themselves in 12 G turns today,
>at least with the experimental equipment, and certainly won't
>be at higher TLs.  And the Rampart isn't going to hit anything
>because its hull mounted lasers point forward.  Where the
>enemy isn't likely to be for long.

The point was that a space fighter doesn't need to loop because
it isn't actually flying. So it can just spin on its axis.
A pilot placed at the centre of the space fighter will experience
almost no G whilst doing 60 rpm, so the problem for the F22 pilot
is that whatever manoeuvre they perform, the space fighter will
still be pointing lasers directly at them.

Obviously, the F22 pilot could break left instead of right, but
there is nothing in the dynamics that stops you pointing at them.

Finally there is an assumption in Traveller that even spinal mounts
can be pointed slightly off axis by the targeting mechanism.

At 16:48 24/03/1999 -0500, Steve Daniels wrote:
>
>I'll stick by what I said about a ship being able to withstand lots of
>Gs though.  :-)

I'd agree with streamlined ships buying up to 10G of structure.

Even more for those hypersonic designs trying to gas giant refuel.

At 17:04 24/03/1999 -0500, Steve Daniels wrote:
>
>> >I forgot what the Space Shuttle does but, IIRC, its starts at 7Gs
>> >and then gradually decelerates but is in orbit in 12 minutes.
>
>Charles R Hensley wrote:
>
>> 3Gs Max
>
Steve Daniels wrote:
>
>That doesn't jive with what I've heard.  It could still be right of course.

IIRC

It was mentioned in connection to the John Glenn flight, Gemini was 7G
compared to 3G for the Shuttle.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 03:46:21 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: FF&S3 Question

I was wondering what we might expect to see in the next version of Fire,
Fusion, & Steel?  What changes, if any are being made in the basic design
rules?  Will the designs under FFS3 be compatible with the earlier versions
(specifically v2)?

(Sorry if this has been covered before...)

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 04:09:15 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

> 4)  Aside from self-awareness, what other characteristics make up a
> sophont?  Abstract reasoning?  Linguistic processing?  Tool making?
> Economic life?  Planning for the future?  Must all characteristics be
> present, or can the presence of some or even only one be enough?  How
> can they be measured?

This brings up some interesting problems.  As you suggest, many species will
have some, but not all of these abilities.  As I recall, dolphins are
mentioned in some Traveller material as being sophonts.  I will grant that
even today we might conceivably attribute dophins with the capability of
abstract reasoning and linguistic processing.  I would even go so far as to
say dolphins would be (are) capable of _using_ tools.  However, due to
dolphin physiology (most notably a lack of manipulative appendages), they
would be hard pressed to _make_ tools. That is, they can use tools which are
provided to them, but are unable to create tools to begin with.  Thus
species such as dolphins would be dependent on other species to create tools
for them.  Would this affect their ability to gain sophont status?  Is the
ability to make tools simply another human-centric measurement of
intelligence?  (Another way for humaniti to reassure itself that it is
indeed the dominant lifeform in the galaxy?)

(...for any being drafting legislation on this matter, 300Cr/hr isn't enough
:)


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:28:07 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

At 04:09 25/03/1999 -0600, "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net> wrote:
<snip>...As I recall, dolphins are
>mentioned in some Traveller material as being sophonts.  I will grant that
>even today we might conceivably attribute dophins with the capability of
>abstract reasoning and linguistic processing.  I would even go so far as to
>say dolphins would be (are) capable of _using_ tools.  However, due to
>dolphin physiology (most notably a lack of manipulative appendages), they
>would be hard pressed to _make_ tools.

IIRC, The tool making problem does not apply to dolphins because they
were genetically engineered by humans to allow them to press buttons
with "fingers" on their flippers.

In general, if you can use a tool, surely you can use that tool to make
another tool.

By the time you can control computers by thought or speech, and
use those computers to run fully automated factories on the other
side of the system, the ability to make a flint hand axe by
bashing two rocks together seems a bit quaint.

Phil Kitching

ps
The only thing I could make by bashing two rocks together would be the
sound of someone bashing two rocks together. :-)
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:05:36 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Q-ships/Imperial Rules of War

>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Subject: Re: Q-Ships
>
>The Imperial Rules of War only apply to war between member states of the
>Imperium.  The 
>Imperium doesn't allow commerce raiding as part of such warfare, because
>it impinges on the Imperial Navy's total domination of space.  The
>Imperium views any such commerce raiding as simple piracy, and deals
>with it as such. 

Sort of.

The problme is that the Rules of War arent really rules, they are guidelines.

I agree, the probability is that most of the time in most places, the
Imperial Authorities would argue that 'No-one makes war in space but us'.

On the other hand, governments often do silly things that seemed like a
good idea at the time, and selling off licences for Commerce Raiders in
legitimate intra-Imperium conflicts strikes me as a good way of keeping the
local Imperial Admiral in the lifestyle to which he has become accustomed.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:47:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> Sorry I missed the earlier part of this thread, but just wanted to
> pipe in here with my view that the G ratings of most Traveller ships
> are waaay to low.  IMTU, if you're ship can't withstand 10Gs for 10
> minutes, it doesn't get certified.

Huh? Since the drives on most ships can't *reach* 10 gees, what's the
point? 

Also, if it'll withstand a given acceleration for *one* minute, it'll
likely handle it for 10 minutes, or even 10 *days*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:51:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> Some real world G data (without G-comp, AG, inertia compensators):
>
> You can go out right now to one of those 'fighter combat' deals where
> you chase a friend around in a two-seater prop plane and pull 6Gs
> for half a minute or so.  The instructors won't let you do much more
> than that for safety reasons.
>
> You can't be a US military fighter pilot unless you can maintain
> control of a fighter at 9Gs for 30 seconds (and control means
> active manuevering, firing, hitting buttons and switches, etc, not
> just maintaining consciousness).  Some of the new equipment
> still in the development though being actively tested has demonstrated
> that military pilots can withstand 12Gs for 45 seconds and still
> fly their plain as needed.

But that data doesn't apply to a spacecraft. The accelerations in tight
*aircraft* manuevers are due to using control surfaces agianst the
atmosphere to turn. 

But in space, the direction of travel, and the orientation of the ship
are *not* linked. Turning the *ship* can be done with steering jets and
fairly *low* accelerations. 

Changing *course*, requires using the main drive. And, it just so
happens that accel from the main drive will *always* be in the same
direction *relative to the ship*. 

So when you change course there will be a *slight* sideways accel as
the ship's nose is pointed in the correct direction (and not the one
you might think!), but the main accel will continue to be from the nose
to the tail.

Also, the g forces on aircraft tend to be from the pilot's head to his
feet. Except for a few manuevers where it's from his feet to his head. 
In the former case, 10g is substantial and only endurable for seconds.
In the latter *3* gs is dangerous.

If you are in a proper acceleration couch in a space fighter (or a ship
with decks properly oriented with respect to the drive), the
acceleration will be from your chest to your back. In this position 10
gees is sustainable for minutes. Maybe longer. 

> I forgot what the Space Shuttle does but, IIRC, its starts at 7Gs
> and then gradually decelerates but is in orbit in 12 minutes.

The shuttle stays around 3-4 g. That's one of the reasons "civilians"
are allowed.

>
> IMHO, the way they're designed, the average Free Trader with 1G
> acceleration, and presumably tolerance somewhere slightly above that,
> is a daintly little balloon that I wouldn't land on a world with an 
> atmosphere.

Don't bet on it. They are about as "frail" as a battleship. 

> Even some of the more powerful ships, and I use that term loosely, are
> nothing but a target in a hostile environment.  Putting them in an atmosphere
> with the slightest potential for trouble is a big risk.

Having a 1g rating means they are as "fast" as an F-15 eagle. They can
boost *straight up* and keep climbing indefinitely. Try that in your
airplane. At 2G, they can go from ground level to 100,000 feet in 79
seconds. 

> Heck, most modern military fighters would circles around a Rampart fighter.
> Only 6Gs, in a vacuum?  Thats a target, not a fighter.

You are confusing two *very* different things. Very few aircraft are
capable of *accelerating* at much more than 1 g. They are the ones
where the pilot can point the nose straight up and keep going until the
engine flames out from lack of air. A 6g space fighter will outrun one
of those *easily*.

The g rating *you* are thinking of are forces induced by using the
*atmosphere* to turn. As I pointed out above, it doesn't work that way
in space. Turning your ship does *not* alter your course. 

> How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
> pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
> and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.

That 12 gees defines how sharply your F22 can *turn*. Not how fast you
can *accelerate*. As I recall, the F22 barely exceeds *one* g for
acceleration.

Consider that the Rampart has engine thrust equal to 6 times its
deadweight. That means that it can go from 0 to mach 5 in 28 seconds.
And reach mach *25* another 2 minutes. And keep right on going. And it
can do almost as well going straight up!

The limits on a Rampart's *turning* (in atmosphere) are going to be the
same as your F22. How many *transverse* gees the *pilot* can take.

> Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm cannon.
> Good bye Rampart.

Hardly. How are you going to deal with a "plane" that goes zipping by
at mach 25? That's roughly 5 miles a *second*. Your guns are useless,
because the Rampart is flying faster than the muzzle velocity. Your
missiles are equally useless, since their top speed is too slow, and
it'll be out of range long before they get up to it.

Again, the G-rating for ships and the g-ratings for aircraft are
measuring *totally* different things. 

Think of a ship's g-rating as being the same as the "thrust to weight
ratio" of a fighter. When you look at it that way *then* you realize
that 6g is *awesome*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:23:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> At 07:11 24/03/1999 -0800, (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
>>
>>>How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
>>>pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
>>>and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.
>>
>>>Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm cannon.
>>>Good bye Rampart.
>>
>>You're confusing the acceleration of the rampart due to it's engine
>>thrust (6 G) with the turning ability of the F22 - which can basically
>>be thought of as the ability of its wings, not its engine, to exert
>>a force (at right angles to its velocity) to make it turn. This is indeed
>>a very large number; they're big wings with a lot of air flowing over
>>them. However, it's apples and oranges. The acceleration that an F22's
>>engine provides is more like 1.5G (much less than a Rampart); and in
>>an atmosphere, a Rampart's wings would provide a similar turning 
>>ability (a reason to by airframe hulls...) 
>
> Also, whilst the F22 pilots are killing themselves in a 12G turn or loop,
> a happy fun ball is just flying along in a stright line, spinning
> on its axis, pulling almost 0G, whilst keeping its weapons pointed
> straight at the F22 because it does not need to generate lift
> (a reason to have streamlined but non-airframe hulls...).

Why bother? As I noted, a Rampart can zip by at Mach 25. The shock wave
alone would shred the F22, and probably at several miles range!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:33:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

In mail you write:

>>of your eye.) Also, as long as the missile is maneuvering with a fusion
>>rocket it is incredibly easy to detect - you can see it halfway 
>>across the solar system. So you can follow it until it shuts down its
>
> Why should anyone use fusion missiles in Traveller at TL 9+?

What else can provide enough g-turns of acceleration? And if there *is*
something else that'll provide that much delta-V with a reasonably
sized missile, it'll be equally "bright".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:41:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

In mail you write:

> Merrick Burkhardt posted:
>>
>>So the bottom line is that KKMs are fairly easy to mission kill with
>>PDF (damn adobe ;-), under normal combat conditions (maneuvering
>>target), and damn near impossible to mission kill under non-typical
>>conditions (coasting targets).
>
> This leads me to the following question.
>
> Since missiles are definitely part of Traveller,
> missiles with a pumped laser warhead are more
> effective than KKMs, and the Imperium won't
> allow nukes, is there any other way to pump a
> laser warhead to the point of making it effective
> while avoiding the use of a nuke?

The problem is the energy requirements. Chemical lasers exist, but the
amount of chemicals required is rather large. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:35:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> No, you're right.  Still, a good velocity, say 1000km/sec, obtainable by a
> missile with a "mere" 30G in only one hour, would be:
>
> a. Very, very hard to find- until within a second or two, the object's tiny
> size means that it's apparent diameter is smaller than the resolution of any
> ship-based sensor. It is also not emitting much, if anything.

Sorry, but the resolution argument doesn't work. What *resolution*
means is that you couldn't tell if what you were seeing was one missile
or a pair flying in "close" formation.

For example, *stars* are far below the resolution of the naked eye. But
you can still see them. And as soon as it tries to make a course
corection (which is *required* if it's going to have a chance of
hitting) it'll be *damned* visible.

Also, any engine capable of boosting it at that rate is going to leave
the missile quite hot. It'll stick out like a sore thumb.

Remember, a "combat hex" is something like 30,000 km. 

> b.  Hard to target.  It will be within range for a very, very short time
> compared to conventional missiles and small craft.

It'll be "in range" for *minutes*. At 1000 km/sec it takes 30 seconds
to cross one hex.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:35:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

In mail you write:

> I've seen this quite a lot in the group, and agree that the canon
> says laser PDF can stop kinetic missiles. Unfortunately, science says
> they can't, but we are playing a game, people, so lets stick with an
> agreed set of rules, eh?

What makes you think "science" says they can't?

Consider that the laser does *not* have to destroy the missile. It
merely has to knock out the sensors or drive. Do either one and you've
got a virtuallyu *guaranteed* miss.

Consider the angle subsumed by the target ship at a range of a mere
thousand km. If the missiles path is outside that angle, it'll miss.
Likewise, if the ship makes a *small* course or position change, the
same is true. 

A kinetic kill missile *cannot* hit without active guidance. And *that*
is what the laser can knock out.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:46:07 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

It was.
Deep Sleep was the organization
hence the term, "Sandman"
Roger



>
>On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Sword Worlder wrote:
>
>> My first Ref called it an SS Gun, short for Secret Service.
>
>I believe the actual name of the organization (Sandmen) was DS (Deep
>Sleep) in the film. Can't recall if it was the same in the book.
>
>Brannon
>--
>http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
>

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:53:51 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: (Fusion) Guns for Characters

No, you're just clever. 
:)
I've done the same thing before as well.

Another alternative is to give them the weapon, and design an adventure 
to acquire the armor.
Then once the marine is ready to go into the thickest of battles blazing 
hellfire all the way, make sure the next 10 combats or so are small arms 
fire onboard the player's ship, or are over before donning the armor is 
finished...

Then you're evil...
:)
Roger
>
>Several years a go, a player rolled a Weapon for his soon-to-be 
ex-Marine.
>He demanded a high-energy weapon, quoting at length from JTAS, Striker, 
and
>other sources that that's what a Marine would be carrying, and pointing 
out
>his own HE-Weapons-4 skill.
>
>So I a gave him what he wanted.  He got a brand-spanking new Plasma 
Gun,
>Man-Portable-13.
>
>Which has to be plugged into a suit of battledress to fire.
>
>Pity there wasn't a "Armor" listing on the mustering out tables...
>
>
>Damn, but I'm evil.
>-- 
>
>Douglas E. Berry
>Templar Agent at Large.
>dberry@hooked.net  
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 
>
>TravGeekCode: 
>tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
>ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
>         

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:56:35 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hello

Usually my group plays MT for rules, but in many of the different 
timelines; post-virus, shattered imperium, pre-rebellion, etc.


>
>I am new to this list, so please excuse the ignorance.
>
>I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most of 
you are playing the latest/greatest(?).
>
>Thanks,
>Jim
>

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:22:23 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hello

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:03:53 -0500 "Sword Worlder"
<swordworlder@clinic.net> writes:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Hopper, Jim <JHopper@software.rockwell.com>
>: I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most 
>of
>you are playing the latest/greatest(?).
>


I've played all of them, though I seem to be leaning back over to CT
again.  Perhaps I'm beginning to atone for my earlier heresies.  Hmmm,
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!  I still love the original CT, no Imperium, it was all
original creations of the players.

<genuflect>

Classic Traveller is the only Traveller, and High Guard is its product.

</genuflect>


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:10:15 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

>Hardly. How are you going to deal with a "plane" that goes zipping by
>at mach 25? That's roughly 5 miles a *second*. Your guns are useless,
>because the Rampart is flying faster than the muzzle velocity. Your
>missiles are equally useless, since their top speed is too slow, and
>it'll be out of range long before they get up to it.
>
>Again, the G-rating for ships and the g-ratings for aircraft are
>measuring *totally* different things. 
>
>Think of a ship's g-rating as being the same as the "thrust to weight
>ratio" of a fighter. When you look at it that way *then* you realize
>that 6g is *awesome*.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

A couple of problems here.  The rampart as drawn does not have the wing
surface to turn in the atmosphere with an F16 or any other fighter.  In the
atmosphere aerodynamics are what count.  With enough power a brick can fly
but it can do so well.  To make up for this lack of control surface the
rampart will have to use part of it's g capacity for manuvering and even in
the pilot is in the center of mass for the rampart he will feel every bit of
the acceleration/deceleration Gs.  Also does CG and thruster plates have
that fine a control in every direction without reorienting the drives
facing?  CG can cancel gravity but that is about it.  Can thrusters thrust
in any direction regardless of physical location and orientaion?  What
happens when the pilot is in the path of the thrust?  Is he pushed away by
the thruster?  If thruster are basic rockets without phisical exhaust (GT
seems to suggest this with their 'vectored thrust' moddel) then thrusters
have little advantage over jets.  A Rampart would have to turn to change the
direction of it's acceleration just like a F16 as it's thrust is
unidirectional like a jets.  Those turns take time just like for the
fighter.  If this is how thrusters work then their only advantage over jets
is that the have not physical exhaust.

Next, while a rampart could be going mach 25 in space I dought that it could
do so in the atmosphere for more than the few seconds that reentry interface
takes to brake it.  The heat caused by air friction at that speed would melt
titanium if it were maitained for any real length of time.

Third, what is to stop the fighter form mounting lasers?  The fighter has a
great advantage in lift.  It's engines do not have to produce enough thrust
to push it into orbit.  If it flies, it works, so it can have a much greater
'war load.'  Also who says that an aero fighter can not use thruster plates
and CG?  A fighter purpose build to fight in a planets atmosphere will
defeat a space fighter of the same tech level IN the atmosphere with all
other things being equal. It's weapons and sensors will be optomised for the
atmosphere.  The space fighters for space.  I find it a bit hard to believe
the space sensors have the same range and resolution in the atmosphere.
From what I know about the design of space base sensors they are huge
disperse structures that would be shreaded if they were deployed durring
atmospheric flight.

Forth, AA weapons.  Very mobile CG platforms for LOS AA batteries with VHROF
(lasers, PAWs, Meson guns).  Easy to move and hide.  The ramparts would be
clay pigeons anywhere in LOS.  See David Drake's 'coliape' (vulcan plazma
cannon) AA power gun systems for what such a system could do.  A power gun
is just a chemically pumped plasma weapon.  

PS:  The Hammer Slammers books are great for insperation for traveller
mercinary campains.


Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #346
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 25 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 347



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters (was RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
Table-Top Fusion A Reality
The new guy
RE: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #346
In case no one has mentioned it : )
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:13:46 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters (was RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

Dom writes:
"That, and the radiation burns, heat damage and temporary 
blindness that results from firing a plasma weapon without 
adequate protection."

	Keep in mind that the FGMP-15 was specifically
	designed to be fired without battle dress.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:22:29 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

Yo, gang

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory scientists
have been able to produce fusion reactions using
a machine that fits on the top of a table, costs
only $1 million, and uses a laser you can block
with your hand without getting hurt. Apparently,
the effects are reproducible.

The full story is posted, once again, by ABC and
can be found at:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/
DailyNews/tablefusion990324.html

You'll need to cut/paste the two lines above to
form the actual URL.

We're not talking end-of-the-oil-era here but
it's something that'll make you say "Hmmmm".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:24:23 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: The new guy

Jim Hopper writes:
"I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or 
if most of you are playing the latest/greatest(?)."

	Welcome!
	I run CT all the way, with my own tweeks of course. You
	will note that there are regular discussions about what
	constitutes "canon" (Merriam Webster's Collegiate 
	Dictionary: "a regulation or dogma decreed by a church 
	council...an accepted principal or rule") and the OTU 
	(Official Traveller Universe). These are often 
	interesting, informative, and generate ideas for MTU 
	(My Traveller Universe), but MTU is most definitely not 
	the OTU, and I mostly ignore canon.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:33:23 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
"4)  Aside from self-awareness, what other characteristics 
make up a sophont?  Abstract reasoning?  Linguistic 
processing?  Tool making? Economic life?  Planning for the 
future?  Must all characteristics be present, or can the 
presence of some or even only one be enough?  How can they 
be measured?"

	For example, the 'watchmakers' in "The Mote in God's
	Eye" were apparently highly skilled technicians, but
	otherwise seemed essentially unintelligent. I expect
	that such extreme cases are unlikely unless the
	species in question has been genetically tinkered.
	So, if we design and build intelligent organisms
	(or robots, or even laptop computers; the line between 
	them becomes blured), are they then independent sophonts?

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:03:05 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

Re: Future psychology

Reminds me of a quote: "the intelligence of the universe is a constant;
the population keeps increasing."

What is insanity, btw? It's usually defined by a society, as in "marked
deviation from the cultural norms", making anyone sufficiently different
"insane". Bottom line, there is no final arbiter of insanity or sanity,
only as measured against the present society. The only unchangeable
standard I can think of is Darwinian evolution.

As to Frank Pitt's suggestion that intelligence is being bred out of
modern Western society, how do you account for the breakthroughs in
genetics and world wide communciations, which happened primarily in the
West? On your theory, the Chinese would be the lowest intellectually,
since their culture for millenia has been one of being satisfied with
the status quo (the theory being that they're already a perfect society,
so why embrace the new?). That's what allowed Europe to dominate the
last few centuries--Europeans broke free of the religious suppression of
knowledge and followed what they considered "common sense" (meaning
experiment and observation--true, much of their common sense was wrong,
but they were trying, and we still are).

I don't think you can breed out intelligence--perhaps our society needs
to redefine successful evolutionary strategies instead. We make
dim-witted people rich and famous for playing a sport well, when most
scientists live in obscurity. Denis (SP?) Rodman isn't a genius, he's
just eccentric and way to wealthy compared to his positive impact on
society. Monica Lewinsky, whose genetic code would probably serve the
human race best if left in obscurity, is now a star. Need I continue?

Back to Traveller: in a space-based society, "basic knowledge" would
include such things as trigonometry. Anyone working and living in space
would have to have an intuitive feel for the relative motions of bodies
in zero g. Those who didn't have the "proper brain structure" (i avoid
using the word "intelligence" here) to properly intuit the physics of
relative motion (and perhaps perform complex trigonometric calculations
in their heads) would tend to remain planet-bound or would consider
space to be like an ocean was to 19c passengers--something to buy a
ticket to get across, but little else.

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and the stupidity
of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the universe is." (Albert
Einstein)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:57:30 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: In case no one has mentioned it : )

We're now offering GURPS Traveller t-shirts. These black 100% cotton tees
feature the classic Traveller sunburst on the front, and the Free Trader
Beowulf mayday message on the back (a blast from the past for those of you
who remember the original little black shirt from lo these many years gone
by). Sizes medium through 3XL are available; order now to ensure you get
one from the first batch!

Go to

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/

for illustrations of what the design looks like.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:58:25 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

Leonard Erickson posted:
>
>A kinetic kill missile *cannot* hit without active guidance. And *that*
>is what the laser can knock out.

Ok, Leonard, you've caused a number of questions
to bubble out of my ignorant brain. :-)

Is it possible to have a missile designed so that
it receives guidance from the launching ship using
the missile's "skin" as a receiving antenna for, say,
pre-specified guidance frequencies?

If so, can it also be designed to have its skin
act as the antenna for one or more armored passive
sensor processors placed deep within the missile for
protection?

If both of the above are true, why not let the
launching ship guide the missile to its target
and then allow the missile to home during the
terminal approach on the target?

I understand the "skin" sensor must have a bottom
limit to its surface area and sensitivity but can't
incoming laser shots be used to home in on a target,
assuming the missile survives them? If one section of
skin is carbonized, have the onboard processors keep
receiving input from the rest of the skin.

Is there a difference between laser energy frequencies
and cosmic energy frequencies which could make this
viable at high TLs?

Of course, the last question above assumes a single
target doing the PD firing. Multiple PD sources would
just result in a very confused (or dead) missle,
wouldn't it?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:12:51 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

Subject: Re: max accel

You're both missing a critical point: G's measures acceleration, but
when you're in combat, RELATIVE SPEED is the critical factor. 

Using your example, if you attack a Rampart fighter, it doesn't matter
how fast it's accelerating, it matters how fast it's going at the moment
you shoot. the Delta between your and its *actual velocity* is what is
important. G-factor indicates  rate of acceleration (how fast it can
change speeds), not an actual velocity.

To get a good feel for how relative speeds can be simulated in a
boardgame, try a game of Star Fleet Battles. 

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and the stupidity
of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the universe is." (Albert
Einstein)


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
> [SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com]
> Sent:	25 March 1999 09:11
> To:	traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Traveller-digest V1999 #346
> 
> 
> Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 25 1999      Volume 1999 :
> Number 346
> 
> 
> 
> (R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
> All rights reserved.
> 
> The following topics are covered in this digest:
> 
> Re: Future psychology (was Re: why cant you children grow up?)
> Re: max accel
> FF&S3 Question
> Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
> Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
> Re: Q-ships/Imperial Rules of War
> Re: max accel
> Re: max accel
> Re: max accel
> Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
> Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
> Re: max accel
> Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
> Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
> Re: (Fusion) Guns for Characters
> Re: Hello
> Re: Hello
> Re: max accel
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:20:34 +1200
> From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> Subject: Re: Future psychology (was Re: why cant you children grow
> up?)
> 
> > At what tech level does mental illness become a thing of the past?
> How
> > expensive is it? What are the ethical questions involved? What
> happens when
> > a high-tech society decides that certain traits -- traits that we
> might
> > consider "individual" -- are actually disorders that need to be
> treated?
> 
> These are, BTW, not questions that apply only to Traveller, but which
> apply
> right now in the real world.
> 
> Many people consider Down Syndrome such a disorder, and there is some
> research
> suggesting that a true genetic "cure" could be produced.
> 
> But at the same time it has been shown that when the stigma of being
> "retarded" is removed and people with DS are treated normally and
> their
> special dietary and other requirements are catered for , they are
> quite
> capable of living a productive healthy life, and even competing
> succesfully
> against so-called "normal" people in intellectual pursuits.
> 
> The big question here is whether _anyone_  has the right to "cure"
> something
> that is a natural occurence, and produces unique individuals who do
> not
> "suffer".
> 
> Personally I believe that any attempt to "fix" such disorders will in
> the long
> term reduce the capability of he human genome to survive, in the same
> way that
> vegetables highly modified for cloour taste and yield are less able to
> survibve in the wild. Similalry any attempt to modify mental health
> will, I
> believe, have the same effect.
> 
> Sure, you'll get local maxima, where say a eugenics-based culture
> rises above
> others, but I contend that they will be  local maxima, and ultimately
> slow or
> prevent full development.
> 
> It's no coincidence that there is a stereotype of "mad professors", I
> would
> suggest that the vast majority of those who have serioulsy advanced
> our
> science, technology and culture, have been at least borderline
> psychotic if
> not completely loony by "average man" standards.
> 
> Sometimes their insanity is of a form that we can admire, such as say,
> Jesus,
> Ghandi or Martin Luther King,
> but without all ends of the many mental spectrums, humanity as a whole
> becomes
> weaker and less able to survive whatever the universe throws at us.
> 
> 
> > Sufficiently advanced techonology might even be able to affect
> mental
> > capacity. What would it be like to visit a world where everyone had
> an INT
> > of F?
> 
> I suspect that while such enhancements would allow a futuristic person
> to
> _seem_ more intelligent than say a modern person, they wouldn't really
> make
> people "more intelligent", they'd just be able to pass IQ tests
> better, and
> find info faster, etc. Coming up with ideas...  well I suppose if the
> ability
> to have ideas one day becomes tracked down to some hormone level....
> 
> And in fact, enhanced technology is having the reverse effect on the
> United
> States, where all measures of intelligence are decreasing, and the
> decline in
> "native" US intelligence is only just being  offset by imports of
> highly
> intelligent people from India and Eastern Europe.
> 
> One reasoning  behind this is that people don't need intelligence to
> survive
> in Western countries anymore, so it no longer serves an evolutionary
> purpose
> and is thus being "bred out"
> 
> To keep it on topic, this might well explain all those stupid things
> in
> Traveller like drop tanks and inefficient X-boat routes, the reason
> they
> haven't been though of is because the average Imperial intelligence is
> far
> lower than it is now, because they didn't need it. It would also
> explain the
> huge devastation of the Long Night and then later the Virus. The Long
> noght
> caused people to start getting intelligent again, but when they
> suceeded in
> getting the Third Imperium, they didn't need it anymore and lost it,
> so that
> when Virus came along.....
> 
> Well, alright it;s pushing it a bit, but all that low passaging must
> have had
> some affect on the Imperium's average IQ   :-)
> 
> Then there' sthose that feel the reason for humanity is to create our
> successors out of silicon, such as Hans Moravec. He might be right.
> 
> Anyone ever consider that Virus was the good guys ?
> 
> Frankie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > IIRC, someone on the list (Robert?) wrote a piece on psychology at
> future
> > tech levels. Is this still in electronic form somewhere where I
> might get
> > at it? I can't seem to find it on my hard disk. :-( >>
> >
> >sounds very Zhodani to me citizen...:-)
> >
> >
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:13:52 +0000
> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: max accel
> 
> At 16:53 24/03/1999 -0500, Steve Daniels wrote:
> >
> >Well, it was a bad example.  But . . .
> >The F22 pilots aren't killing themselves in 12 G turns today,
> >at least with the experimental equipment, and certainly won't
> >be at higher TLs.  And the Rampart isn't going to hit anything
> >because its hull mounted lasers point forward.  Where the
> >enemy isn't likely to be for long.
> 
> The point was that a space fighter doesn't need to loop because
> it isn't actually flying. So it can just spin on its axis.
> A pilot placed at the centre of the space fighter will experience
> almost no G whilst doing 60 rpm, so the problem for the F22 pilot
> is that whatever manoeuvre they perform, the space fighter will
> still be pointing lasers directly at them.
> 
> Obviously, the F22 pilot could break left instead of right, but
> there is nothing in the dynamics that stops you pointing at them.
> 
> Finally there is an assumption in Traveller that even spinal mounts
> can be pointed slightly off axis by the targeting mechanism.
> 
> At 16:48 24/03/1999 -0500, Steve Daniels wrote:
> >
> >I'll stick by what I said about a ship being able to withstand lots
> of
> >Gs though.  :-)
> 
> I'd agree with streamlined ships buying up to 10G of structure.
> 
> Even more for those hypersonic designs trying to gas giant refuel.
> 
> At 17:04 24/03/1999 -0500, Steve Daniels wrote:
> >
> >> >I forgot what the Space Shuttle does but, IIRC, its starts at 7Gs
> >> >and then gradually decelerates but is in orbit in 12 minutes.
> >
> >Charles R Hensley wrote:
> >
> >> 3Gs Max
> >
> Steve Daniels wrote:
> >
> >That doesn't jive with what I've heard.  It could still be right of
> course.
> 
> IIRC
> 
> It was mentioned in connection to the John Glenn flight, Gemini was 7G
> compared to 3G for the Shuttle.
> 
> Phil Kitching
> - --
>   http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
>   Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
>  "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 03:46:21 -0600
> From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
> Subject: FF&S3 Question
> 
> I was wondering what we might expect to see in the next version of
> Fire,
> Fusion, & Steel?  What changes, if any are being made in the basic
> design
> rules?  Will the designs under FFS3 be compatible with the earlier
> versions
> (specifically v2)?
> 
> (Sorry if this has been covered before...)
> 
> Thad K. Sneed
> - ---------------------------------------------------------
> "Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
> "Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."
> 
> tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 04:09:15 -0600
> From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
> Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
> 
> > 4)  Aside from self-awareness, what other characteristics make up a
> > sophont?  Abstract reasoning?  Linguistic processing?  Tool making?
> > Economic life?  Planning for the future?  Must all characteristics
> be
> > present, or can the presence of some or even only one be enough?
> How
> > can they be measured?
> 
> This brings up some interesting problems.  As you suggest, many
> species will
> have some, but not all of these abilities.  As I recall, dolphins are
> mentioned in some Traveller material as being sophonts.  I will grant
> that
> even today we might conceivably attribute dophins with the capability
> of
> abstract reasoning and linguistic processing.  I would even go so far
> as to
> say dolphins would be (are) capable of _using_ tools.  However, due to
> dolphin physiology (most notably a lack of manipulative appendages),
> they
> would be hard pressed to _make_ tools. That is, they can use tools
> which are
> provided to them, but are unable to create tools to begin with.  Thus
> species such as dolphins would be dependent on other species to create
> tools
> for them.  Would this affect their ability to gain sophont status?  Is
> the
> ability to make tools simply another human-centric measurement of
> intelligence?  (Another way for humaniti to reassure itself that it is
> indeed the dominant lifeform in the galaxy?)
> 
> (...for any being drafting legislation on this matter, 300Cr/hr isn't
> enough
> :)
> 
> 
> Thad K. Sneed
> - ---------------------------------------------------------
> "Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
> "Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."
> 
> tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:28:07 +0000
> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
> 
> At 04:09 25/03/1999 -0600, "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
> wrote:
> <snip>...As I recall, dolphins are
> >mentioned in some Traveller material as being sophonts.  I will grant
> that
> >even today we might conceivably attribute dophins with the capability
> of
> >abstract reasoning and linguistic processing.  I would even go so far
> as to
> >say dolphins would be (are) capable of _using_ tools.  However, due
> to
> >dolphin physiology (most notably a lack of manipulative appendages),
> they
> >would be hard pressed to _make_ tools.
> 
> IIRC, The tool making problem does not apply to dolphins because they
> were genetically engineered by humans to allow them to press buttons
> with "fingers" on their flippers.
> 
> In general, if you can use a tool, surely you can use that tool to
> make
> another tool.
> 
> By the time you can control computers by thought or speech, and
> use those computers to run fully automated factories on the other
> side of the system, the ability to make a flint hand axe by
> bashing two rocks together seems a bit quaint.
> 
> Phil Kitching
> 
> ps
> The only thing I could make by bashing two rocks together would be the
> sound of someone bashing two rocks together. :-)
> - --
>   http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
>   Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
>  "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:05:36 +1000
> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> Subject: Re: Q-ships/Imperial Rules of War
> 
> >From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
> >Subject: Re: Q-Ships
> >
> >The Imperial Rules of War only apply to war between member states of
> the
> >Imperium.  The 
> >Imperium doesn't allow commerce raiding as part of such warfare,
> because
> >it impinges on the Imperial Navy's total domination of space.  The
> >Imperium views any such commerce raiding as simple piracy, and deals
> >with it as such. 
> 
> Sort of.
> 
> The problme is that the Rules of War arent really rules, they are
> guidelines.
> 
> I agree, the probability is that most of the time in most places, the
> Imperial Authorities would argue that 'No-one makes war in space but
> us'.
> 
> On the other hand, governments often do silly things that seemed like
> a
> good idea at the time, and selling off licences for Commerce Raiders
> in
> legitimate intra-Imperium conflicts strikes me as a good way of
> keeping the
> local Imperial Admiral in the lifestyle to which he has become
> accustomed.
> 
> Ian Whitchurch
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:47:44 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: max accel
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Sorry I missed the earlier part of this thread, but just wanted to
> > pipe in here with my view that the G ratings of most Traveller ships
> > are waaay to low.  IMTU, if you're ship can't withstand 10Gs for 10
> > minutes, it doesn't get certified.
> 
> Huh? Since the drives on most ships can't *reach* 10 gees, what's the
> point? 
> 
> Also, if it'll withstand a given acceleration for *one* minute, it'll
> likely handle it for 10 minutes, or even 10 *days*. 
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:51:33 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: max accel
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Some real world G data (without G-comp, AG, inertia compensators):
> >
> > You can go out right now to one of those 'fighter combat' deals
> where
> > you chase a friend around in a two-seater prop plane and pull 6Gs
> > for half a minute or so.  The instructors won't let you do much more
> > than that for safety reasons.
> >
> > You can't be a US military fighter pilot unless you can maintain
> > control of a fighter at 9Gs for 30 seconds (and control means
> > active manuevering, firing, hitting buttons and switches, etc, not
> > just maintaining consciousness).  Some of the new equipment
> > still in the development though being actively tested has
> demonstrated
> > that military pilots can withstand 12Gs for 45 seconds and still
> > fly their plain as needed.
> 
> But that data doesn't apply to a spacecraft. The accelerations in
> tight
> *aircraft* manuevers are due to using control surfaces agianst the
> atmosphere to turn. 
> 
> But in space, the direction of travel, and the orientation of the ship
> are *not* linked. Turning the *ship* can be done with steering jets
> and
> fairly *low* accelerations. 
> 
> Changing *course*, requires using the main drive. And, it just so
> happens that accel from the main drive will *always* be in the same
> direction *relative to the ship*. 
> 
> So when you change course there will be a *slight* sideways accel as
> the ship's nose is pointed in the correct direction (and not the one
> you might think!), but the main accel will continue to be from the
> nose
> to the tail.
> 
> Also, the g forces on aircraft tend to be from the pilot's head to his
> feet. Except for a few manuevers where it's from his feet to his head.
> 
> In the former case, 10g is substantial and only endurable for seconds.
> In the latter *3* gs is dangerous.
> 
> If you are in a proper acceleration couch in a space fighter (or a
> ship
> with decks properly oriented with respect to the drive), the
> acceleration will be from your chest to your back. In this position 10
> gees is sustainable for minutes. Maybe longer. 
> 
> > I forgot what the Space Shuttle does but, IIRC, its starts at 7Gs
> > and then gradually decelerates but is in orbit in 12 minutes.
> 
> The shuttle stays around 3-4 g. That's one of the reasons "civilians"
> are allowed.
> 
> >
> > IMHO, the way they're designed, the average Free Trader with 1G
> > acceleration, and presumably tolerance somewhere slightly above
> that,
> > is a daintly little balloon that I wouldn't land on a world with an 
> > atmosphere.
> 
> Don't bet on it. They are about as "frail" as a battleship. 
> 
> > Even some of the more powerful ships, and I use that term loosely,
> are
> > nothing but a target in a hostile environment.  Putting them in an
> atmosphere
> > with the slightest potential for trouble is a big risk.
> 
> Having a 1g rating means they are as "fast" as an F-15 eagle. They can
> boost *straight up* and keep climbing indefinitely. Try that in your
> airplane. At 2G, they can go from ground level to 100,000 feet in 79
> seconds. 
> 
> > Heck, most modern military fighters would circles around a Rampart
> fighter.
> > Only 6Gs, in a vacuum?  Thats a target, not a fighter.
> 
> You are confusing two *very* different things. Very few aircraft are
> capable of *accelerating* at much more than 1 g. They are the ones
> where the pilot can point the nose straight up and keep going until
> the
> engine flames out from lack of air. A 6g space fighter will outrun one
> of those *easily*.
> 
> The g rating *you* are thinking of are forces induced by using the
> *atmosphere* to turn. As I pointed out above, it doesn't work that way
> in space. Turning your ship does *not* alter your course. 
> 
> > How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can
> only
> > pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on
> you,
> > and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on
> me.
> 
> That 12 gees defines how sharply your F22 can *turn*. Not how fast you
> can *accelerate*. As I recall, the F22 barely exceeds *one* g for
> acceleration.
> 
> Consider that the Rampart has engine thrust equal to 6 times its
> deadweight. That means that it can go from 0 to mach 5 in 28 seconds.
> And reach mach *25* another 2 minutes. And keep right on going. And it
> can do almost as well going straight up!
> 
> The limits on a Rampart's *turning* (in atmosphere) are going to be
> the
> same as your F22. How many *transverse* gees the *pilot* can take.
> 
> > Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm
> cannon.
> > Good bye Rampart.
> 
> Hardly. How are you going to deal with a "plane" that goes zipping by
> at mach 25? That's roughly 5 miles a *second*. Your guns are useless,
> because the Rampart is flying faster than the muzzle velocity. Your
> missiles are equally useless, since their top speed is too slow, and
> it'll be out of range long before they get up to it.
> 
> Again, the G-rating for ships and the g-ratings for aircraft are
> measuring *totally* different things. 
> 
> Think of a ship's g-rating as being the same as the "thrust to weight
> ratio" of a fighter. When you look at it that way *then* you realize
> that 6g is *awesome*.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:23:15 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: max accel
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > At 07:11 24/03/1999 -0800, (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
> >>
> >>>How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can
> only
> >>>pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on
> you,
> >>>and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons
> on me.
> >>
> >>>Give me some Hi-G missiles.  Heck, 50 calibers, with some 30mm
> cannon.
> >>>Good bye Rampart.
> >>
> >>You're confusing the acceleration of the rampart due to it's engine
> >>thrust (6 G) with the turning ability of the F22 - which can
> basically
> >>be thought of as the ability of its wings, not its engine, to exert
> >>a force (at right angles to its velocity) to make it turn. This is
> indeed
> >>a very large number; they're big wings with a lot of air flowing
> over
> >>them. However, it's apples and oranges. The acceleration that an
> F22's
> >>engine provides is more like 1.5G (much less than a Rampart); and in
> >>an atmosphere, a Rampart's wings would provide a similar turning 
> >>ability (a reason to by airframe hulls...) 
> >
> > Also, whilst the F22 pilots are killing themselves in a 12G turn or
> loop,
> > a happy fun ball is just flying along in a stright line, spinning
> > on its axis, pulling almost 0G, whilst keeping its weapons pointed
> > straight at the F22 because it does not need to generate lift
> > (a reason to have streamlined but non-airframe hulls...).
> 
> Why bother? As I noted, a Rampart can zip by at Mach 25. The shock
> wave
> alone would shred the F22, and probably at several miles range!
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:33:14 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> >>of your eye.) Also, as long as the missile is maneuvering with a
> fusion
> >>rocket it is incredibly easy to detect - you can see it halfway 
> >>across the solar system. So you can follow it until it shuts down
> its
> >
> > Why should anyone use fusion missiles in Traveller at TL 9+?
> 
> What else can provide enough g-turns of acceleration? And if there
> *is*
> something else that'll provide that much delta-V with a reasonably
> sized missile, it'll be equally "bright".
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:41:17 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Merrick Burkhardt posted:
> >>
> >>So the bottom line is that KKMs are fairly easy to mission kill with
> >>PDF (damn adobe ;-), under normal combat conditions (maneuvering
> >>target), and damn near impossible to mission kill under non-typical
> >>conditions (coasting targets).
> >
> > This leads me to the following question.
> >
> > Since missiles are definitely part of Traveller,
> > missiles with a pumped laser warhead are more
> > effective than KKMs, and the Imperium won't
> > allow nukes, is there any other way to pump a
> > laser warhead to the point of making it effective
> > while avoiding the use of a nuke?
> 
> The problem is the energy requirements. Chemical lasers exist, but the
> amount of chemicals required is rather large. 
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:35:05 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: max accel
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > No, you're right.  Still, a good velocity, say 1000km/sec,
> obtainable by a
> > missile with a "mere" 30G in only one hour, would be:
> >
> > a. Very, very hard to find- until within a second or two, the
> object's tiny
> > size means that it's apparent diameter is smaller than the
> resolution of any
> > ship-based sensor. It is also not emitting much, if anything.
> 
> Sorry, but the resolution argument doesn't work. What *resolution*
> means is that you couldn't tell if what you were seeing was one
> missile
> or a pair flying in "close" formation.
> 
> For example, *stars* are far below the resolution of the naked eye.
> But
> you can still see them. And as soon as it tries to make a course
> corection (which is *required* if it's going to have a chance of
> hitting) it'll be *damned* visible.
> 
> Also, any engine capable of boosting it at that rate is going to leave
> the missile quite hot. It'll stick out like a sore thumb.
> 
> Remember, a "combat hex" is something like 30,000 km. 
> 
> > b.  Hard to target.  It will be within range for a very, very short
> time
> > compared to conventional missiles and small craft.
> 
> It'll be "in range" for *minutes*. At 1000 km/sec it takes 30 seconds
> to cross one hex.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:35:20 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I've seen this quite a lot in the group, and agree that the canon
> > says laser PDF can stop kinetic missiles. Unfortunately, science
> says
> > they can't, but we are playing a game, people, so lets stick with an
> > agreed set of rules, eh?
> 
> What makes you think "science" says they can't?
> 
> Consider that the laser does *not* have to destroy the missile. It
> merely has to knock out the sensors or drive. Do either one and you've
> got a virtuallyu *guaranteed* miss.
> 
> Consider the angle subsumed by the target ship at a range of a mere
> thousand km. If the missiles path is outside that angle, it'll miss.
> Likewise, if the ship makes a *small* course or position change, the
> same is true. 
> 
> A kinetic kill missile *cannot* hit without active guidance. And
> *that*
> is what the laser can knock out.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:46:07 PST
> From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
> 
> It was.
> Deep Sleep was the organization
> hence the term, "Sandman"
> Roger
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Sword Worlder wrote:
> >
> >> My first Ref called it an SS Gun, short for Secret Service.
> >
> >I believe the actual name of the organization (Sandmen) was DS (Deep
> >Sleep) in the film. Can't recall if it was the same in the book.
> >
> >Brannon
> >--
> >http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
> >
> 
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:53:51 PST
> From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: (Fusion) Guns for Characters
> 
> No, you're just clever. 
> :)
> I've done the same thing before as well.
> 
> Another alternative is to give them the weapon, and design an
> adventure 
> to acquire the armor.
> Then once the marine is ready to go into the thickest of battles
> blazing 
> hellfire all the way, make sure the next 10 combats or so are small
> arms 
> fire onboard the player's ship, or are over before donning the armor
> is 
> finished...
> 
> Then you're evil...
> :)
> Roger
> >
> >Several years a go, a player rolled a Weapon for his soon-to-be 
> ex-Marine.
> >He demanded a high-energy weapon, quoting at length from JTAS,
> Striker, 
> and
> >other sources that that's what a Marine would be carrying, and
> pointing 
> out
> >his own HE-Weapons-4 skill.
> >
> >So I a gave him what he wanted.  He got a brand-spanking new Plasma 
> Gun,
> >Man-Portable-13.
> >
> >Which has to be plugged into a suit of battledress to fire.
> >
> >Pity there wasn't a "Armor" listing on the mustering out tables...
> >
> >
> >Damn, but I'm evil.
> >-- 
> >
> >Douglas E. Berry
> >Templar Agent at Large.
> >dberry@hooked.net  
> >http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 
> >
> >TravGeekCode: 
> >tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
> >ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
> >         
> 
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:56:35 PST
> From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Hello
> 
> Usually my group plays MT for rules, but in many of the different 
> timelines; post-virus, shattered imperium, pre-rebellion, etc.
> 
> 
> >
> >I am new to this list, so please excuse the ignorance.
> >
> >I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most
> of 
> you are playing the latest/greatest(?).
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Jim
> >
> 
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:22:23 -0500
> From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: Hello
> 
> On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:03:53 -0500 "Sword Worlder"
> <swordworlder@clinic.net> writes:
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Hopper, Jim <JHopper@software.rockwell.com>
> >: I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most
> 
> >of
> >you are playing the latest/greatest(?).
> >
> 
> 
> I've played all of them, though I seem to be leaning back over to CT
> again.  Perhaps I'm beginning to atone for my earlier heresies.  Hmmm,
> NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!  I still love the original CT, no Imperium, it was all
> original creations of the players.
> 
> <genuflect>
> 
> Classic Traveller is the only Traveller, and High Guard is its
> product.
> 
> </genuflect>
> 
> 
> Jim Clem
> Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of
> your
> enemies.
> - --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
> http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:10:15 +0000
> From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: max accel
> 
> >Hardly. How are you going to deal with a "plane" that goes zipping by
> >at mach 25? That's roughly 5 miles a *second*. Your guns are useless,
> >because the Rampart is flying faster than the muzzle velocity. Your
> >missiles are equally useless, since their top speed is too slow, and
> >it'll be out of range long before they get up to it.
> >
> >Again, the G-rating for ships and the g-ratings for aircraft are
> >measuring *totally* different things. 
> >
> >Think of a ship's g-rating as being the same as the "thrust to weight
> >ratio" of a fighter. When you look at it that way *then* you realize
> >that 6g is *awesome*.
> >
> >-- 
> >Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> >leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> >
> 
> A couple of problems here.  The rampart as drawn does not have the
> wing
> surface to turn in the atmosphere with an F16 or any other fighter.
> In the
> atmosphere aerodynamics are what count.  With enough power a brick can
> fly
> but it can do so well.  To make up for this lack of control surface
> the
> rampart will have to use part of it's g capacity for manuvering and
> even in
> the pilot is in the center of mass for the rampart he will feel every
> bit of
> the acceleration/deceleration Gs.  Also does CG and thruster plates
> have
> that fine a control in every direction without reorienting the drives
> facing?  CG can cancel gravity but that is about it.  Can thrusters
> thrust
> in any direction regardless of physical location and orientaion?  What
> happens when the pilot is in the path of the thrust?  Is he pushed
> away by
> the thruster?  If thruster are basic rockets without phisical exhaust
> (GT
> seems to suggest this with their 'vectored thrust' moddel) then
> thrusters
> have little advantage over jets.  A Rampart would have to turn to
> change the
> direction of it's acceleration just like a F16 as it's thrust is
> unidirectional like a jets.  Those turns take time just like for the
> fighter.  If this is how thrusters work then their only advantage over
> jets
> is that the have not physical exhaust.
> 
> Next, while a rampart could be going mach 25 in space I dought that it
> could
> do so in the atmosphere for more than the few seconds that reentry
> interface
> takes to brake it.  The heat caused by air friction at that speed
> would melt
> titanium if it were maitained for any real length of time.
> 
> Third, what is to stop the fighter form mounting lasers?  The fighter
> has a
> great advantage in lift.  It's engines do not have to produce enough
> thrust
> to push it into orbit.  If it flies, it works, so it can have a much
> greater
> 'war load.'  Also who says that an aero fighter can not use thruster
> plates
> and CG?  A fighter purpose build to fight in a planets atmosphere will
> defeat a space fighter of the same tech level IN the atmosphere with
> all
> other things being equal. It's weapons and sensors will be optomised
> for the
> atmosphere.  The space fighters for space.  I find it a bit hard to
> believe
> the space sensors have the same range and resolution in the
> atmosphere.
> From what I know about the design of space base sensors they are huge
> disperse structures that would be shreaded if they were deployed
> durring
> atmospheric flight.
> 
> Forth, AA weapons.  Very mobile CG platforms for LOS AA batteries with
> VHROF
> (lasers, PAWs, Meson guns).  Easy to move and hide.  The ramparts
> would be
> clay pigeons anywhere in LOS.  See David Drake's 'coliape' (vulcan
> plazma
> cannon) AA power gun systems for what such a system could do.  A power
> gun
> is just a chemically pumped plasma weapon.  
> 
> PS:  The Hammer Slammers books are great for insperation for traveller
> mercinary campains.
> 
> 
> Charles L.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Traveller-digest V1999 #346
> **********************************
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------------------------------

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 25 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 348



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Enhanced Dolphins (was Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Im
Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Great Snakes in Space!
Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality
Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
replying to TML
Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
GT:Far Trader Errata
Re: Future psychology
Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality
Re: max accel
re: Max Accel
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
re: Max Accel
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
re: IRIS
Re: max accel
RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters (was RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:04:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Enhanced Dolphins (was Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Im

Phil Kitching wrote:
> At 04:09 25/03/1999 -0600, "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net> wrote:
> <snip>...As I recall, dolphins are
> >mentioned in some Traveller material as being sophonts.  I will grant that
> >even today we might conceivably attribute dophins with the capability of
> >abstract reasoning and linguistic processing.  I would even go so far as to
> >say dolphins would be (are) capable of _using_ tools.  However, due to
> >dolphin physiology (most notably a lack of manipulative appendages), they
> >would be hard pressed to _make_ tools.
> 
> IIRC, The tool making problem does not apply to dolphins because they
> were genetically engineered by humans to allow them to press buttons
> with "fingers" on their flippers.
> 
> In general, if you can use a tool, surely you can use that tool to make
> another tool.

Dolphins are covered under Best of the JTAS Vol 2 and in Traveller 
Digest #13 (or maybe 15, I can't remember which one has the Terra 
info in it.)

From what I recall, Dolphins don't have much genetic manipulation to 
give them "fingers" on fins, simply a bit more heightened intellect.  
However, they do use "waldos" built by the Solomani to make other 
tools, they do communicate through language, and they do exhibit the 
capacity to solve problems.  And that seems to fit the bill defined 
under WBH for the sentience question.
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:08:40 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

In a message dated 3/23/99 6:21:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<<  Getting hold
 of a weapon doesn't give a character the right to carry it on memeber world
 territory either.
 
 		Dave Nelson >>

This is interesting. I can see every downport having a large armory with
individual lockable lockers, so all the PC's can deposit their weapons before
they leave the port. I wonder how long it will take for some wiseass party of
PC's to rob the armory...?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:38:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>  
> The subject line is a giveaway.  The question that is being led
> up to is "how do you define 'sophont'?".

Well, since the scouts who first investigated the system containing
these so called 'fuzzy sapiens' were clearly insane and hallucinating, I
propose we red-zone the system, and hope they go away...;-)

Seriously, it gets hard to define, as things get (forgive me) really
fuzzy along the edges.

All of the mentioned aspects (tools, language, culture, self awareness,
temporal awareness) are _signs_ of sentience. Classification as a
sophont under Imperial law, will be up to the survey teams and
supervisors in the IISS units investigating the system. I would guess,
that they would certainly tend to err on the side of caution.

Now, since lifeforms useful enough to be slaves will certainly show
enough signs to be classified as sophonts by just about anyone, it's
unlikely that this will show up, at all. (In fact, I suspect the
greatest incidence of slavery will be precisely what we have here on
earth today... indentured servitude or so-called contract laborers...a
real gray area of the law in most places)

The areas of greatest concern over sophont classification will be over
lifeforms that happen to be living on valuable resources, and will
revolve around whether they have to be paid, protected or just oopsed
away.

This will certainly be less influenced by strictly scientific concerns
than by political and economic ones (in the Imperium, often one and the
same.) I'm sure there will be powerful interests in the Imperium behind
preservation of native cultures and ecosystems, just as there will be
powerful interests in favor of resource exploitation whereever they can
be found.

These opposing forces will certainly make themselves felt on the IISS,
often at the same time.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:46:06 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Great Snakes in Space!

Greetings:

Amazing what happens when you skip downloading and reading the TML for a week.

Another Cliff-induced flame war or three.

Rob Prior "retires" from the list.

Sigh.

I'm not sure if there's been a resolution of this whole thing--as I've got
about 500 pages of digest to wade through still!--but IMHO Rob is worth about
a billion Cliffs in terms of what past/current/future contributions to
Traveller are...

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:55:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

Smart, David J (David) writes:
> Yo, gang
> 
> Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory scientists
> have been able to produce fusion reactions using
> a machine that fits on the top of a table, costs
> only $1 million, and uses a laser you can block
> with your hand without getting hurt. Apparently,
> the effects are reproducible.

Hm...impressive, but hardly useful for producing power (10,000 neutrons?  Ooh,
we fused 10^-19 grams of deuterium, for 100 microjoules of energy!).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:10:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 

> This is interesting. I can see every downport having a large armory with
> individual lockable lockers, so all the PC's can deposit their weapons before
> they leave the port. I wonder how long it will take for some wiseass party of
> PC's to rob the armory...?

"This is an EX-PC! If it weren't nailed to the character sheet it'd be
pushing up daisies!"

I suspect retribution would be swift and extremely nasty for any party
willing to try that...remember the downport is Imperial territory. Plus,
you've just pissed off a large number of characters who carry guns they
have to lock up on regular occasion...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:13:48 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: replying to TML

I imagine that hitting the 'reply' button does it: all of
TML digest 346 was included as part of David Smart's post 
in TML digest 347. Needless to say,... well, I guess I 
don't need to say it :)

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:47:22 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:49:28 -0800, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

>For when you want to set your ship down dirtside (or anchor it to an airless
>rock, etc) and power it down completely to hide.  Batteries would be
>supplying power, and you wouldn't be leaking emissions.
>
>Jesse
>

First, I know that the standard SC has a "landing gear" but I do not see that they 
are a must. If you are not landing on a tl10 starport with gravplates and 
manipulators and on water, You still have your extrem strong hull to sit down on 
it.

If You still insist on something like landing gears, why don't you ad something 
like not movable, extremly hardend extensions (not like a heli more like a small 
pondon)?

Jens
- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:10:54 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GT:Far Trader Errata

Just found this.  Maybe already been found.

The formula for maintenance states a fudge factor of 4.8.  This a bit 
high.  I think the playtest version stated 0.0048.  That one seems to 
work a bit better.  Otherwise, my ships require crews that are 
unimaginably large!

Am I missing something here or is this wrong?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:36:56 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Future psychology

>> Sufficiently advanced techonology might even be able to affect mental
>> capacity. What would it be like to visit a world where everyone had an INT
>> of F?
>
>I suspect that while such enhancements would allow a futuristic person to
>_seem_ more intelligent than say a modern person, they wouldn't really make
>people "more intelligent", they'd just be able to pass IQ tests better, and
>find info faster, etc.


Ah, this gets into the philosophy. :-)

Here I am referring not to an increase in I.Q., but to actual enhancement
of proccessing capability. Although there is yet to be a definitive
distillation of just what "intelligence" is, there is general agreement
that there is *something* there, and that it varies from individual to
individual. The difficulty in definition is most likely that there are
probably several tens of different variables that play into what we call
intelligence.

Certainly part of intelligence is determined by environmental factors (a
person can be taught good thinking habits such as logic, critical thinking,
etc.), but there also seem to be clear physiological components. Some
people just seem to be able to think more clearly, quickly, and with more
depth than others. (In computer terms, some people just have faster
processors than others. Mine's a 286-SX, unfortunately! ;-))

That's always what I considered Trav INT to represent, and why it was
seperated from EDU in the game.

It is this processing power that high technology might enhance, and this is
what I was talking about. Of course, all the advanced cyber-enhancements
and brain-therapy in the world won't teach a person good thinking habits.
Furthermore, it seems that bad thinking habits can actually change the
physiological makeup of the brain (i.e., how the neural connections run).
There is a feedback loop involved, and errors on either side might be
involved in causing a breakdown of function. So perhaps high-tech society
could start everyone out with a perfect brain, but environmental effects
would cause individual differences.

Unless, that is, the science is so advanced that they can make changes as a
person develops. Here, of course, we get into ethical problems, as you
mentioned. What to correct, and when?


>Coming up with ideas...  well I suppose if the ability
>to have ideas one day becomes tracked down to some hormone level....


Creativity may or may not fall under the definition of intelligence,
depending on who you ask. Actually, a lot of things in psychology depend on
who you ask, which is why it's considered such an unrigorous, "squishy"
science by the more hard science types out there (and the reason I bugged
out on getting my Master's in cognitive psych -- if I'm gonna be squishy, I
might as well be an artist).

In game terms, I leave creativity out of INT, and leave that up to the player.
Creativity is not something that lends itself well to statistical analysis
in RPGs. I can quite easily compensate for a player who has a character
smarter than he is by simply giving him more information. This simulates
his ability to deduce things clearly, quickly, and correctly. I have a
harder time making a character more creative than the player is, though.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:38:12 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Cc: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality


>Smart, David J (David) writes:
>> Yo, gang
>>
>> Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory scientists
>> have been able to produce fusion reactions using
>> a machine that fits on the top of a table, costs
>> only $1 million, and uses a laser you can block
>> with your hand without getting hurt. Apparently,
>> the effects are reproducible.
>
>Hm...impressive, but hardly useful for producing power (10,000 neutrons?
Ooh,
>we fused 10^-19 grams of deuterium, for 100 microjoules of energy!).
>


Hey, it's a start!  Making something happen at all is the hard part.  Making
it do something useful is just a matter of refining the technique.

John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:46:40 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: max accel

>From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
...
>You're both missing a critical point: G's measures acceleration, but
>when you're in combat, RELATIVE SPEED is the critical factor. 
...
>important. G-factor indicates  rate of acceleration (how fast it can
>change speeds), not an actual velocity.

  A spacecrafts atmo G's are also the result of drag and engine power; effective
engine power is crucial in determining top speed. IIRC, one of the JTAS (early
teens?) has an Amber Zone ("Foxbat"?) covering combat between 3I Ramparts and
local ASF equipped with off-world missiles trying to take out the Empires local
puppet/flunky.

>There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and the stupidity
>of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the universe is." (Albert Einstein)

  I snipped the rest of the message - it didn't seem relevant to this thread :>
All 30+ K of repeated Digest, that is...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:46:07 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Max Accel

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  A spacecrafts atmo G's are also the result of drag and engine power; effective
engine power is crucial in determining top speed. IIRC, one of the JTAS (early
teens?) has an Amber Zone ("Foxbat"?) covering combat between 3I Ramparts and
local ASF equipped with off-world missiles trying to take out the Empires local
puppet/flunky.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Wasn't that a fight between Imperial-grade G-Carriers and lower-tech
atmospheric fighters? Or were the G-Carriers just the target of the
atmo-fighter strike?

Too long since I read the scenario...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:55:29 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

> IIRC, The tool making problem does not apply to dolphins because they
> were genetically engineered by humans to allow them to press buttons
> with "fingers" on their flippers.
>
> In general, if you can use a tool, surely you can use that tool to make
> another tool.

I concede both points ( in general :)  However, I was thinking that an
intelligent species (capable of a language-but nothing similiar to human
speech - ultrasound, clicks, low-frequency sound, etc.) that had no
manipulative appendages with which to build tools, would be difficult to
recognize as a sophont.  They would most likely be living in their original
habitat, and so they might appear to be wild animals.  Real Life (tm)
dolphins make a good example.  They can't build tools, but they can use
tools given to them by man.

I think it would be very easy to dismiss an intelligent race, simply because
of physiological restrictions.

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
It has been said that the true 'aliens' in the universe are living, not in
space, but in our own oceans.

"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:55:18 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

OK, tongue-somewhat-in-cheek artistic-reply coming:
Because they look cooler!

Sorry, couldn't help it.  The other thing I see about landing gear is the
ability to soften the shock of setting the ship down.  If you're doing it to
hull hardpoints only, you REALLY wanna' be as gentle as possible in the
process of landing so you put minimum extra stress on the hull, regardless
of how much the hull is strengthened for contact landing like that.  The
compression oleos (correct term?) take up that extra shock before
distributing the weight to the hull.

IMTU, YMMV, etc.
Jesse


>On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:49:28 -0800, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>
>>For when you want to set your ship down dirtside (or anchor it to an
airless
>>rock, etc) and power it down completely to hide.  Batteries would be
>>supplying power, and you wouldn't be leaking emissions.
>>
>>Jesse
>>
>
>First, I know that the standard SC has a "landing gear" but I do not see
that they
>are a must. If you are not landing on a tl10 starport with gravplates and
>manipulators and on water, You still have your extrem strong hull to sit
down on
>it.
>
>If You still insist on something like landing gears, why don't you ad
something
>like not movable, extremly hardend extensions (not like a heli more like a
small
>pondon)?
>
>Jens
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:28:35 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Max Accel

Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:

>Oh, GREAT.  Just freakin' GREAT.
>
>We're so ADVANCED on this list.  Maturing at RELATIVISTIC GODDAMN SPEEDS.
>Having COMPLETELY OUTGROWN the childish squabbles of battleships vs.
>fighters, we're now tackling the SERIOUS ISSUE of space vs. atmospheric
>fighters and which one's willy is bigger.  SPIFFY.

Kenji,

Which rules set has the willy in? I can't find it in COACC or FFS1/2? What
stats does it have? And does it have a handwave to make the Physics work?

Dom






:-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:31:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:

<snip>

>As a result, you can, by running 250 windows worth of Acrobat Exchange
>in one CPU slot, destroy 250 missiles per turn.

LoL!

I'm real glad that I didn't have any coffee left when I was reading this,
else there would be more computer wiork and I'd just reinitialised the hard
drive!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:33:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: IRIS

 Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Strephon was using in spook lingo what we call "plausible deniability".

'You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment'.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:59:19 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

>To make up for this lack of control surface the
>rampart will have to use part of it's g capacity for manuvering and even in
>the pilot is in the center of mass for the rampart he will feel every bit of
>the acceleration/deceleration Gs.

Bear in mind he has 6G compensation which means he can pull more G's than
the F22 pilot.

>Also does CG and thruster plates have
>that fine a control in every direction without reorienting the drives
>facing?  CG can cancel gravity but that is about it.  Can thrusters thrust
>in any direction regardless of physical location and orientaion?  What
>happens when the pilot is in the path of the thrust?

You're forgetting G compensators as well as contragrav and thrusters.

A contragrav ship floats. It requires no lift. The T-plate can apply
vectored thrust (SOpM) to some degree. The Rampart does have small wing
surfaces to help to. Thus that 6G can be used to manuever.

>  A Rampart would have to turn to change the
>direction of it's acceleration just like a F16 as it's thrust is
>unidirectional like a jets.

No, it hovers, burns the 6G to point at the F22, hits it with a light speed
weapon (or the ionisation shock). You are making the assumption that a
space craft with advanced technology will behave the same way as a fighter,
which is flawed IMO.

Anyway, a sane person would either (a) kill the F22 at range from space or
(b) send a Trepida to do the work.

> Those turns take time just like for the
>fighter.  If this is how thrusters work then their only advantage over jets
>is that the have not physical exhaust.

Thruster operation is only defined in one source at the manuever level, and
that is the SOpM.

>Next, while a rampart could be going mach 25 in space I dought that it could
>do so in the atmosphere for more than the few seconds that reentry interface
>takes to brake it.  The heat caused by air friction at that speed would melt
>titanium if it were maitained for any real length of time.

Fair point.

>Third, what is to stop the fighter form mounting lasers?

Ahem. Aside from the fact that this example was a F22 against a Rampart? If
you want to change the frame of the discussion, that's fine. An F22
couldn't generate enough power for the 250Mw laser.

> The fighter has a
>great advantage in lift.  It's engines do not have to produce enough thrust
>to push it into orbit.

No advantage at all. It needs forward motion to allow air to pass over the
wing surfaces to generate lift, which is why planes stall.

The Rampart has contragrav which means it doesn't have to spend engine
thrust pushing into orbit. It *floats* and can rise with high enough CG.

Additionally, a wing based airbreathing engine like that on the F22 isn't
going to be much use in orbit.

>  If it flies, it works, so it can have a much greater
>'war load.'

Nope. See above.

Have some more missiles if you want but I'll take the Rampart and the laser
battery.


>Also who says that an aero fighter can not use thruster plates
>and CG?

No one. That wasn't the context of this discussion though. If you want to
discuss a TL15 air fighter against a TL15 space fighter, fine.

>A fighter purpose build to fight in a planets atmosphere will
>defeat a space fighter of the same tech level IN the atmosphere with all
>other things being equal. It's weapons and sensors will be optomised for the
>atmosphere.  The space fighters for space.  I find it a bit hard to believe
>the space sensors have the same range and resolution in the atmosphere.

Why? The active set from a space vessel is going to be way more powerful
than an air based set.

All things being equal, there may be an advantage to a fighter optimised
for atmosphere,but it probably won't look like a F22, which needs to
generate lift to work.

>Forth, AA weapons.  Very mobile CG platforms for LOS AA batteries with VHROF
>(lasers, PAWs, Meson guns).  Easy to move and hide.  The ramparts would be
>clay pigeons anywhere in LOS.  See David Drake's 'coliape' (vulcan plazma
>cannon) AA power gun systems for what such a system could do.  A power gun
>is just a chemically pumped plasma weapon.

Read COACC if you can get a copy.

PAWs have a problem in atmospheres.

Taking a planet is going to be hard, I agree, but your argument has
wandered from why a (TL8) F22 is better than a (TL15) Rampart in an
atmosphere to why a TL15 Rampart will most likely be destroyed if attacking
a TL15 world with TL15 designed airspace fighters.

BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
than a plane.

Dom
>PS:  The Hammer Slammers books are great for insperation for traveller
>mercinary campains.
>
>
>Charles L.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:00:52 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters (was RE: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:

>	Keep in mind that the FGMP-15 was specifically
>	designed to be fired without battle dress.

That's the recoil reduction though. It still has the blinding risk, and I'd
wear gloves to fire it.

:-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #348
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 25 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 349



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Future psychology
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles
Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality
Re: replying to TML
Question for anyone
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
which version?
Re: Future psychology
RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
re: Max Accel
Re: GT: Far Trader Errata
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Hello
Re: max accel
Imperial Intelligence Services
Re: GT ship, Blockade runner
Re: Hello
Re: IRIS
Re: BayCon
Re: SpecWar vs. BlackOps
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Never Mind! (was "Great Snakes...")
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Stepping outside the jump field...
RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters (was RE: Ships Locker on ScoutShips)
RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters (was RE: Ships Locker on ScoutShips)
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Ocean World Adventure Seeds
Re: Max Accel [Keyboard Warning]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:12:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Future psychology

>From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
...
>What is insanity, btw? It's usually defined by a society, as in "marked

  The Herd is always right. K'Moo!

...
>West? On your theory, the Chinese would be the lowest intellectually,
...

  Funny, but that almost sounds like something that a Tokugawa-era Japanese
scholar of kokugaku might write several volumes on - but I didn't say that,
`cuz Kenji deeply worries me, especially without Roderick around to serve as
a deterrent.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:12:58 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles

>From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
>Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
...
>Is it possible to have a missile designed so that
>it receives guidance from the launching ship using
>the missile's "skin" as a receiving antenna for, say,
>pre-specified guidance frequencies?

  For initial guidance it's OK to have a receiver that simply doesn't face
the target or "adjacent" PD establishments. Later on light lag becomes a
very serious issue for a missile that needs to contact; a det laser might
be able to get by with peeking for only a few seconds as it deploys the
Xaser rods - a bad time to take a hit, though.

>If so, can it also be designed to have its skin
>act as the antenna for one or more armored passive
>sensor processors placed deep within the missile for
>protection?

  I'm not sure what you mean, but if the skin is the receiver, then its'
getting cooked will still screw your sensors.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:12:29 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

>>Smart, David J (David) writes:
>>> Yo, gang
>>>
>>> Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory scientists
>>> have been able to produce fusion reactions using
>>> a machine that fits on the top of a table, costs
>>> only $1 million, and uses a laser you can block
>>> with your hand without getting hurt. Apparently,
>>> the effects are reproducible.
>>
>>Hm...impressive, but hardly useful for producing power (10,000 neutrons?
>Ooh,
>>we fused 10^-19 grams of deuterium, for 100 microjoules of energy!).
>>
>
>
>Hey, it's a start!  Making something happen at all is the hard part.  Making
>it do something useful is just a matter of refining the technique.

Maybe, maybe not.  The DOE is still funding magnetic confinement fusion
(which means I still have a job) to the tune of well over $200 million a
year (a pittance in federal budget terms, but about what its been).

I just hope that article doesn't make people think that larger fusion
programs are unecessary.  Not only is the work of fusion research important
to developing fusion power, its also been a catalyst for many other
inventions and uses in related areas (plasma science, magnetics,
magnetohydrodynamics, etc).

Reading the article though, it seems more like "good press" than "bad
press".  I wonder what my boss will say when he gets back from that
conference.

Note that the type of fusion described is "Inertial Confinement" fusion,
whereas the fusion usually associated with the Traveller concept is
"magnetic confinement" fusion, like what is done here at MIT.

Also note that "Cold Fusion" has not really weathered the test of time so
far.  Although there are still some advocates, it is generally not
considered "Fusion" any more.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:25:15 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: replying to TML

Ian Ferguson
>
>I imagine that hitting the 'reply' button does it: all of
>TML digest 346 was included as part of David Smart's post 
>in TML digest 347. Needless to say,... well, I guess I 
>don't need to say it :)
>
>Ian

OOPS! My apologies, folks, for the slip of
my mouse. I'm using Exchange at work and
usually have to cut/paste email and manually
add the little ">" signs in order to reply.

Much rather have the simplistic Netscape
email functions (I hate useless bells and
whistles).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:47:51 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: Question for anyone

Is there a planet/system design mailing list or webring anyone knows of?


THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and the stupidity
of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the universe is." (Albert
Einstein)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:18:42 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

> From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>

> This brings up some interesting problems.  As you suggest, many species will
> have some, but not all of these abilities.  As I recall, dolphins are
> mentioned in some Traveller material as being sophonts.  I will grant that

Another issue to raise:  What about uplifted species?  Would the
corporation that uplifted them at great trouble and expense then be
denied the use of its new product?

> (...for any being drafting legislation on this matter, 300Cr/hr isn't enough

(Well, of course I'd never reject the offer of a higher fee, but that
amount does seem reasonable to me -- a Soc 9 or A professional with a
lot of experience, engaged to do complex work, but not in a crisis
setting or under unreasonable or even unusual time pressures.  On the
other hand, the people whom Cleon will actually have dealing with this
problem are all probably Soc C+, and are not billing by the hour. 
Rather, they're just doing their duty to the Imperium and to Cleon, and
their rewards are the doing itself and being part of the historical
record.  Besides which, they get all the advantages of being Imperial
nobility -- especially land in various forms -- so they would hardly
seek monetary fee.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:50 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: which version?

> Jim Hopper writes:
> "I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or 
> if most of you are playing the latest/greatest(?)."

I usually use MT rules, especially the task system.  My campaigns are
usually set in the Spinward Marches before, during, or just after the
Fifth Frontier War, so the background is solidly CT.  As I've gotten
older and busier with other things in my life (as Les Howie once
remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things: a
career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.: that's
not an exact quotation, just my memory), I've tended to try to use more
stuff "off the shelf", rather than designing every ship, planet, and
weapon system myself.  That way I can spend my referee time on what I'm
good at, which is plot and mood development.

That's my Cr0.02.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:39:53 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Future psychology

This is an interesting discussion to which I only want to add my Cr0.02:

> From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>

> I don't think you can breed out intelligence--perhaps our society needs
> to redefine successful evolutionary strategies instead. We make

Actually, I understand that it's well-documented cross-culturally that
the only factor that is always associated with reduction in the birth
rate is increased education.  Education is of course different than
intelligence, but if the intelligent people are the ones who want to
make sure that they and their offspring get educated, and if
intelligence is carried genetically, then the intelligentsia will
eventually breed themselves out of existence.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:50:09 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters

Dom Mooney writes:
"That's the recoil reduction though. It still has the blinding 
risk, and I'd wear gloves to fire it."

	Well, IIRC no special protection is specified (as being
	required or even recomended) in any CT source that I have.
	Nor is there any provision for causing damage to those 
	nearby the designated target, except at longer ranges. Not
	that such damage would necessarily be a bad idea, but I 
	would allow PCs who somehow got their destructive little
	hands on a PGMP-12, PGMP-14, or even FGMP-15 to fire away 
	without being blinded or burned (unless, maybe, they hit
	a wall or some such within 5 m). The trick for them is to
	get a hold of one of these ;)

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:00:49 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
...
>Now, since lifeforms useful enough to be slaves will certainly show
>enough signs to be classified as sophonts by just about anyone,
...

  Like the noble Horse, you carnivore oppressor scum?
                                                                :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:00:59 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Max Accel

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Max Accel
...
>Wasn't that a fight between Imperial-grade G-Carriers and lower-tech
>atmospheric fighters? Or were the G-Carriers just the target of the
>atmo-fighter strike?

  The latter, IIRC. Ramparts as added escort.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:43:29 -0700
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Errata

> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:10:54 -0600
> From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
> Subject: GT:Far Trader Errata
> 
> The formula for maintenance states a fudge factor of 4.8.  This a bit 
> high.  I think the playtest version stated 0.0048.  That one seems to 
> work a bit better.  Otherwise, my ships require crews that are 
> unimaginably large!
> 
> Am I missing something here or is this wrong?

There are already about a dozen errata in the que, but I hadn't seen one
here. I don't have the book with me; I'll check when I get home. In the
meantime, are you certain you're using the right units? The maintenance
formula in VE2 is based on $, that in T:FT on MCr. Big difference.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:53:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> >Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
> ...
> >Now, since lifeforms useful enough to be slaves will certainly show
> >enough signs to be classified as sophonts by just about anyone,
> ...
> 
>   Like the noble Horse, you carnivore oppressor scum?

Note: I was speaking distinctly about the Imperium, not the 2000
Barbeque Joints! ;-P

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:06:32 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

	Sophont is just the Greek equivalent of Sapient (Latin) both of which mean
"wise".  Now wisdom is not anymore defineable than Sapience or Sophoncy.   

I would however offer as a working definition:   a being is a sophont if it is
aware of itself as a separate being from the universe at large, and is aware
of the knowledge that it possesess.

As to the second, key, clause:  a dog knows and remembers a great deal of
information, but it is not aware that it posseses certain pieces of knowledge
when it is not using it.  It must be "reminded" of everything by some
stimulous before it can use its knowledge.   Humans, on the other hand, know
that they know a great dea of information that they are not using.

	I guess you can boil it down to "KNOWING THAT YOU KNOW"

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:59:47 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hello

	Hello New Guy,

	I played CT until MT came out and played that for awhile, stopped playing
Traveller for a while, then started again when T4 came out.     I liked CT,
liked MT and liked T4.   (I found TNE rule incomprehensible, but liked the
backgound).  I like GURPS StarMercs, but don't intend to play using the GURPS
rules.    
	Basically,  I'll referee T4 (or hopefully T5), but I'd eagarly play CT, or MT
as well.  The best part about Traveller, however, is that apart from
statistics on equipment, CT, MT and T4 materials are all mutually inter-
changeable.   I still use 76 Patrons, Broadsword, the Chamax Plague materials
from CT in T4 games.  

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:16:41 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

steve daniels wrote:

>Charles R Hensley wrote:
>
>> steve daniels wrote:
>>
>> Germany requires a pilot to maintain control at 3Gs with no flight
suit.
>
>IIRC, that test is part of the application process.  If you can't do
that,
>they don't even take your papaerwork.

Correct
>
>> >I forgot what the Space Shuttle does but, IIRC, its starts at 7Gs
>> >and then gradually decelerates but is in orbit in 12 minutes.
>>
>> 3Gs Max
>
>That doesn't jive with what I've heard.  It could still be right of
course.

sorry 3Gs is actual accelleration (thrust 4Gs).  I don't have the book
handy but it is 3Gs for a period of time, throttle back to 1.5G? for a
minute(to determine if an abort to Kenedy is needed), then back to 3G

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:19:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Imperial Intelligence Services

We'd been talking about espionage in the 3I a while ago, and I thought
this might be of interest:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/FredMoody/moody990316.html

Does the 3I have a recruiting/propaganda program like this one???
:)

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:13:03 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT ship, Blockade runner

That's a clever, if pricey ship idea!   I like it.

					Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:11:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Hello

At 05:43 PM 3/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I am new to this list, so please excuse the ignorance.

Around here, ignorance can be bliss...

>I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most of you
are playing the latest/greatest(?).

I play using CORPS from BTRC.  When I do play actual Traveller, I tend to
use either MT or T4 with Marc's upgrades.

welcome to the asylum!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:12:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: IRIS

At 11:00 PM 3/24/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Strephon was using in spook lingo what we call "plausible deniability".

In his personal journal?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:08:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon

At 10:34 PM 3/24/99 EST, you wrote:
>Jes and I will be at BayCon

Could all the TMLers who will be at BayCon mail me?  That way I can
organize the get together without taking up list space.

Thanks!

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:17:21
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SpecWar vs. BlackOps

At 06:35 PM 3/24/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Thats only 'illegal' in US law.  And even then, its not really a 'law' but
>an executive order, which has the force of law, until it is revoked.
>
>'Illegal' and 'Black' are different things, but I can envisage a scenario
>when you would want it known that you had someone assassinated.

Making it public would only invite retribution.  Even the Soviet Union kept
quiet about it's handling of troublesome citizens in the Eastern Bloc
countries.

Also, using regular military personal makes it an act of war.  An agent can
be denied, a serving officer is so much more difficult.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:15:53 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

IIRC,  the dolphins that are called sophonts in Traveller are a genetically
engineered species "upgraded" by Solomani scientists, not wild dolphins.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:24:14 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Never Mind! (was "Great Snakes...")

Greetings All:

Well, an idle afternoon at work, unable to do what I really wanted to do,
allowed me to catch up on TML.

So "never mind" to my question on the latest flamefest!

Good to see that "Mercenary Traders from Mars" is out from SJG. I had not
ordered it, but probably will (and see if I can pre-order "Last Out" as
well!).

Fred Kiesche
(Amateur Astronomer Since 1965 and hoping that tonight is clear so he can play
with his new "toy"--that's been idle for 2 weeks due to the clouds!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:27:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> As to the second, key, clause:  a dog knows and remembers a great deal of
> information, but it is not aware that it posseses certain pieces of knowledge
> when it is not using it.

I don't really see how you can say that with any certainty. What kind of
test could you possibly do to prove that?

>  Humans, on the other hand, know
> that they know a great dea of information that they are not using.

And what kind of test could you do to prove that? I'm interested to know
how you could empirically test it.

Brannon


- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:45:40 +0100
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Stepping outside the jump field...

"Brannon W. Boren" schrieb:
> 
> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Holger Kadlez wrote:
> >
> > Maybe the breakdown of the jumpfield while in jump (being a _really
> > major_ jumpdrive failure), or leaving the jumpfield results in the
> > immediate return of the ship (or whatever) in normal space, usually
> > spread out over a sphere with a diameter of several parsec. This might
> > qualify as *vanishing forever*.
> 
> Interesting encounter: The AE-35 antennae on the ship's exterior is giving
> an indication that its structural brace has fractured. If it breaks loose
> and contacts the jump field, it could be "bad." (imagine all life as we
> know it ceasing to exist and every molecule in your body exploding at the
> speed of light)
> 
> One of the PCs has to spacewalk on the outside of the ship, clinging to
> the hull so as not to contact the jump field himself, and secure the
> antennae.
> 
> And you thought engineering was a safe profession!
> 

Especially when a jump space dragon pays you a call at that moment.

Holger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:06:58 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters (was RE: Ships Locker on ScoutShips)

>Dom writes:
>"That, and the radiation burns, heat damage and temporary 
>blindness that results from firing a plasma weapon without 
>adequate protection."
>
>	Keep in mind that the FGMP-15 was specifically
>	designed to be fired without battle dress.
>
>Ian
>

Ian:
Without BattleDress (IMTU) does not mean in your pajamas.
You would need at the minimum a great pair of TL15 Mirrorshades...
:)
Roger Barr
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:08:39 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters (was RE: Ships Locker on ScoutShips)

>Dom writes:
>"That, and the radiation burns, heat damage and temporary 
>blindness that results from firing a plasma weapon without 
>adequate protection."
>
>	Keep in mind that the FGMP-15 was specifically
>	designed to be fired without battle dress.
>
>Ian
>

Ian:
Without BattleDress (IMTU) does not mean in your pajamas.
You would need at the minimum a great pair of TL15 Mirrorshades...
:)
Roger Barr
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:34:54 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

> I would however offer as a working definition:   a being is a sophont if
it is
> aware of itself as a separate being from the universe at large, and is
aware
> of the knowledge that it possesess.

<good natured jibe>
Allow me to pick at nits for a moment, just to show how difficult it is to
define (sophont, sapient, sentient, self-aware, ad nausem)

A great many beings which inhabit Terra circa 2000 A.D., and are considered
to be sentient, consider themselves to be 'one' with the universe at large.

<a bit more serious>
I think it would be very difficult to define intelligent life in any
objective sense.  (Especially if that definition were to be used to
determine status/rights of a given species.)

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:38:09 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Ocean World Adventure Seeds

I just found a website which has some great
details on *deep* ocean creatures found on
earth. Some of these critters put all of
Hollywood's efforts to shame and would
make great alien lifeform encounters for
adventurers on ocean worlds.

The URL is:
http://www.discovery.com/stories/nature/creatures/creatures.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:36:40 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Max Accel [Keyboard Warning]

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
> 
> >Oh, GREAT.  Just freakin' GREAT.
> >
> >We're so ADVANCED on this list.  Maturing at RELATIVISTIC GODDAMN SPEEDS.
> >Having COMPLETELY OUTGROWN the childish squabbles of battleships vs.
> >fighters, we're now tackling the SERIOUS ISSUE of space vs. atmospheric
> >fighters and which one's willy is bigger.  SPIFFY.
> 
> Kenji,
> 
> Which rules set has the willy in? I can't find it in COACC or FFS1/2? What
> stats does it have? And does it have a handwave to make the Physics work?
> 
> Dom
> 
I haven't found the willy in any of the rules sets yet.  I suspect,
however, that it's from CT, as CT design issues are strictly
volume-related, with no real concern for mass.  Stats are highly
variable.  Finally, the appropriate hands doing appropriate waving, (or
other appropriate things) dramatically improve the physics of the
willy's operation....  >;-)

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #349
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 25 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 350



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Future psychology
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
Zho' Martial Arts Styles (was Gurps Books)
Re: Future psychology
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: GT ship, Blockade runner
Re: Future psychology
Re: Hello
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
re: Max Accel
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Ships and classification
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters
Re: Hello

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:39:44 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

Thad K. Sneed wrote:

> > I would however offer as a working definition:   a being is a sophont if
> it is
> > aware of itself as a separate being from the universe at large, and is
> aware
> > of the knowledge that it possesess.
>
> <good natured jibe>
> Allow me to pick at nits for a moment, just to show how difficult it is to
> define (sophont, sapient, sentient, self-aware, ad nausem)
>
> A great many beings which inhabit Terra circa 2000 A.D., and are considered
> to be sentient, consider themselves to be 'one' with the universe at large.
>
> <a bit more serious>
> I think it would be very difficult to define intelligent life in any
> objective sense.  (Especially if that definition were to be used to
> determine status/rights of a given species.)

I think the fairest way would be to send a representative of the species to
some council to determine if they are sophonts.  You aren't allowed to enslave
that species until it gets certified as non-sophontic.  Once you get that
certification, you can abuse them as you see fit.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:51:07 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Future psychology

>What is insanity, btw?


I know this is a rhetorical question, but I can't help it. Insanity is a
legal term. I don't recall the exact definition (Bloo?), but it has to do
with whether or not a person can be held accountable for his own actions in
a court of (U.S.) law.


>It's usually defined by a society, as in "marked
>deviation from the cultural norms", making anyone sufficiently different
>"insane". Bottom line, there is no final arbiter of insanity or sanity,
>only as measured against the present society. The only unchangeable
>standard I can think of is Darwinian evolution.


Certainly that categorization of someone as "insane" is up to subjective
definition. However, many of the behavioral traits that are displayed by
those we currently refer to as mentally ill are not. Defining a condition
as healthy or unhealthy does not change the condition. A person that
suffers from catatonic schizophrenia exhibits the same behavior whether he
or she is considered by society at large as "consulting the gods" or "sick."

The goal of psychology as a science is to develop a way of measuring the
variables that cause such behavior in order to describe, make predictions
about, and understand why it occurs. With this understanding (hopefully)
will come the technology to change it, if we -- the society at large --
decide that it is what we want to do.

TL advances won't help us with the ethical questions in any sphere -- but
that doesn't mean that the advances won't be there.


>Back to Traveller: in a space-based society, "basic knowledge" would
>include such things as trigonometry. Anyone working and living in space
>would have to have an intuitive feel for the relative motions of bodies
>in zero g.


If you are using the term "intuitive" to mean simply processing information
without having to think it through explicitly, then I agree with you.


>Those who didn't have the "proper brain structure" (i avoid
>using the word "intelligence" here)


<giggle> Why avoid the word "intelligence," since "proper brain structure"
is just a code phrase for the same concept? ;-)


>to properly intuit the physics of
>relative motion (and perhaps perform complex trigonometric calculations
>in their heads) would tend to remain planet-bound or would consider
>space to be like an ocean was to 19c passengers--something to buy a
>ticket to get across, but little else.


I'm not so sure about this, unless by "to properly intuit" you mean
"learn." Intuition is learned knowledge that doesn't rely on language. For
example, once you learn how to do it, throwing a baseball is intuitive. You
can do it without thinking "I must throw at x velocity and y angle to get z
distance."

It is highly unlikely to be necessary to do higher math in your head just
to get around in a zero-G environment. Many, many mathematically complex
activities are picked up relatively easily by living things. Inability to
function in such an environment would almost certainly be the result of a
physiological shortcoming.



Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:03:13 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

[snip of someone's definition equating sapience to self awareness]

>> I think it would be very difficult to define intelligent life in any
>> objective sense. [...]
>
>I think the fairest way would be to send a representative of the species to
>some council to determine if they are sophonts.  You aren't allowed to enslave
>that species until it gets certified as non-sophontic.  Once you get that
>certification, you can abuse them as you see fit.


In other words, those that are able to control everyone else determines who
is sapient and who isn't.

In other words, might makes right. ;-)

I think that's a pretty good description of reality.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:58:21 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mustering Out Bennies (was Re: Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

In a message dated 3/25/99 11:19:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< 
 This is interesting. I can see every downport having a large armory with
 individual lockable lockers, so all the PC's can deposit their weapons before
 they leave the port. I wonder how long it will take for some wiseass party of
 PC's to rob the armory...?
  >>
	Yes, I've usually called this storage facility "Bonded Storage"  the
warehouser must place a significant monetary bond with the Imperium to cover
damages if his stored weapons are stolen and misused.   Usually there are
significant security measures in place, and if possible, the storage facility
will be as close as can be arranged to any Army presence in the port.  Funny,
I've never had a wiseass party try to steal from Bonded Storage--but don't
tell them or it'll happen soon.

			Dave Nelson
	

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:20:57 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Zho' Martial Arts Styles (was Gurps Books)

In TML 335  "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: Gurps Books

>        <snip>
>On another note, has anyone given any thought to developing new
>martial arts styles for the different Imperial or Zhodani services?  I was
>thinking about it the other day and thought maybe you could take the basic
>military training style from Gurps Martial Arts and tweak it for the
>Marines, the Army, the Scouts and the S3 Scouts.  Any thoughts on what
>manuvers to put in for each branch or whether it's even necessary to pursue
>this at all?
>

GDW's Alien SModule 4, Zhodani, page 27, may hold a clue. The acquired
skills tables, has in Prole skills one chance in six of the skill
'Brawling'.

IMHO:
This can be used to represent a Martial Arts style filling the social niche
of Ti Chi. If used as a combative stlye I suggest that the stlye will have
been tweeked from the Tavrchedl' (Thought Police). Omitt lethal strikes,
necessary sweeps or strike point awarness to deal with armoured (esp std
Zho combat armour) opponents. To balence increase the non-lethal strikes
(open handed and circular moves), holds and pinning techniques. Add a
strong philosiphy of 'action in reaction' and 'deflection of force', and
accent the stlye towards a sporting approach (like the veriation between
Kendo and Kenjitsu).

If you expand or modify for the Nobles and Armed Forces, not justified by
the incidence in skill tables. Then include lethal strikes, close terrain
or streight strikes and modify the philosiphial imperatives. I'd be
inclined to keep the sporting use as an approved military recreation.

The waeknesses of such a style are a 'face the opponent only', prefrence to
try to take'em alive in the military and inability to deal with armed
(blade or gun) opponents re the incidence of blade and gun cbt in non-prole
careers. The facing problem derives from one on one sporting practice
situations and a biult in bilndsiding to a teleporting opponent from
tweeked from the Tavrchedl'. The take'em alive from excitment when they
forget that this isn't a sproting situation.

non-IMHO:
I am aware of the opinion that the 'Brawling' skill adheres to the Soviet
model and represents sport. I've not found a back reference to this, if
anyone can provide one I'd be most greatful.


Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:09:02 -0800
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Future psychology

I am reminded of the movie "The Terminator" where "Reese" (sp) arrived from
the future and gets caught by the police, the psychiatrist  interrogates
Reese and they think he is a "loon" totally out of his mind.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Future psychology


>>What is insanity, btw?
>
>
>I know this is a rhetorical question, but I can't help it. Insanity is a
>legal term. I don't recall the exact definition (Bloo?), but it has to do
>with whether or not a person can be held accountable for his own actions in
>a court of (U.S.) law.
>
>
>>It's usually defined by a society, as in "marked
>>deviation from the cultural norms", making anyone sufficiently different
>>"insane". Bottom line, there is no final arbiter of insanity or sanity,
>>only as measured against the present society. The only unchangeable
>>standard I can think of is Darwinian evolution.
>
>
>Certainly that categorization of someone as "insane" is up to subjective
>definition. However, many of the behavioral traits that are displayed by
>those we currently refer to as mentally ill are not. Defining a condition
>as healthy or unhealthy does not change the condition. A person that
>suffers from catatonic schizophrenia exhibits the same behavior whether he
>or she is considered by society at large as "consulting the gods" or
"sick."
>
>The goal of psychology as a science is to develop a way of measuring the
>variables that cause such behavior in order to describe, make predictions
>about, and understand why it occurs. With this understanding (hopefully)
>will come the technology to change it, if we -- the society at large --
>decide that it is what we want to do.
>
>TL advances won't help us with the ethical questions in any sphere -- but
>that doesn't mean that the advances won't be there.
>
>
>>Back to Traveller: in a space-based society, "basic knowledge" would
>>include such things as trigonometry. Anyone working and living in space
>>would have to have an intuitive feel for the relative motions of bodies
>>in zero g.
>
>
>If you are using the term "intuitive" to mean simply processing information
>without having to think it through explicitly, then I agree with you.
>
>
>>Those who didn't have the "proper brain structure" (i avoid
>>using the word "intelligence" here)
>
>
><giggle> Why avoid the word "intelligence," since "proper brain structure"
>is just a code phrase for the same concept? ;-)
>
>
>>to properly intuit the physics of
>>relative motion (and perhaps perform complex trigonometric calculations
>>in their heads) would tend to remain planet-bound or would consider
>>space to be like an ocean was to 19c passengers--something to buy a
>>ticket to get across, but little else.
>
>
>I'm not so sure about this, unless by "to properly intuit" you mean
>"learn." Intuition is learned knowledge that doesn't rely on language. For
>example, once you learn how to do it, throwing a baseball is intuitive. You
>can do it without thinking "I must throw at x velocity and y angle to get z
>distance."
>
>It is highly unlikely to be necessary to do higher math in your head just
>to get around in a zero-G environment. Many, many mathematically complex
>activities are picked up relatively easily by living things. Inability to
>function in such an environment would almost certainly be the result of a
>physiological shortcoming.
>
>
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:07:24 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

In a message dated 3/25/99 4:33:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brannonb@animal.blarg.net writes:

<< 
 And what kind of test could you do to prove that? I'm interested to know
 how you could empirically test it.
 
 Brannon
  >>

	You're probably a scientist.   Scientists have the narrow viewpoint that only
the proveable is true, and all that is true is proveable.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:26:59 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

Humorous Solution: The Imperial ambassador
orders transmitter enabled robotic Rubic's
Cubes to be airdropped...  They re-scramble
when solved... and if solved again within ten
minutes they signal the contact group.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:33:19 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT ship, Blockade runner

Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:13:03 EST, AveNelso@aol.com

>That's a clever, if pricey ship idea!   I like it.

Yeah, that is why I called it "highly specialized".
You certainly wouldn't ship cargo with it.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Future psychology

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
> >What is insanity, btw?
> 
> 
> I know this is a rhetorical question, but I can't help it. Insanity is a
> legal term. I don't recall the exact definition (Bloo?), but it has to do
> with whether or not a person can be held accountable for his own actions in
> a court of (U.S.) law.

Insanity (or diminished capacity) as a defense means that you are incapable of
telling right from wrong.  It's also a highly subjective decision on the part
of the jury, and (obviously) isn't applied to people who are arguably insane,
but aren't criminals.  In other definitions, you can only force
institutionalization of someone (for insanity) if you can show that they are a
danger to themselves or others.

Overall, I'm not at all convinced that there's any overall definition for
'sane' or 'insane' in US law.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:39:51 +0000 (GMT)
From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Hello

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> I play using CORPS from BTRC.  When I do play actual Traveller, I tend to
> use either MT or T4 with Marc's upgrades.

What are the upgrades to T4, and where are they available? 

Chris T
The impossible is possible
if you've willing to risk
all for it 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:42:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> 	You're probably a scientist.   Scientists have the narrow viewpoint that only
> the proveable is true, and all that is true is proveable.

Not necessarily, but the context of the conversation necessitates some
kind of provable standard. You think a dog is not a sophant because you
have lived your whole life with dogs and have the background of all your
race's accumulated history with dogs to tell you so.

But what about that 10-legged blue thing you just found wandering around
your scoutship? Is it a sophant? Is it aware of all the things it knows
even when it isn't using the information?

How can you tell?

Brannon

PS: And no, I don't know either  ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:49:05 -0700
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:50 -0800
>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>
>older and busier with other things in my life (as Les Howie once
>remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things: a
>career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.:
that's
>not an exact quotation, just my memory), I've tended to try to use
more


Oh. Well, now I guess that explains why I'm currently unemployed... :)

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:56:30 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: re: Max Accel

Dear Folks -

Walt asked:
>Wasn't that a fight between Imperial-grade G-Carriers and lower-tech
>atmospheric fighters? Or were the G-Carriers just the target of the
>atmo-fighter strike?

>Too long since I read the scenario...

This was from a very early Journal (#11? 14?)... can't remember the article
name, sorry. It involved a number (how many??) of atmospheric fighters
escorting a country's leader who was riding one of six G-Carriers. The
interceptors were two Rampart fighters. The atmospheric fighters each had
one ship missile that they could use on the Ramparts. It was stated that
the Ramparts were immune to everything the fighters had EXCEPT the missile.
Three ranges were used: short, long, and extreme. Only the Ramparts could
escape to extreme range (simply by flying straight up).

The suggestion was to base all ranges off the G-Carriers, since they were
the slowest vehicles and also the primary targets.

The six G-Carriers were just a version of the old shell game - the Ramparts
don't know which one the leader is in, so attack them all.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:01:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/25/99 4:33:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> brannonb@animal.blarg.net writes:
> 
> <<
>  And what kind of test could you do to prove that? I'm interested to know
>  how you could empirically test it.
> 
>  Brannon
>   >>
> 
>         You're probably a scientist.   Scientists have the narrow viewpoint that only
> the proveable is true, and all that is true is proveable.

Soooo, what...it's so because you say it is? 

You made assertions in your earlier statement that do not seem to hold
up. 

How do you know that dogs, for instance, require outside stimulus to
remember learned knowledge and that humans do not?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:16:20 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:04:28 -0500, Ian Ferguson
<ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:

>Glenn M. Goffin writes:
>"4)  Aside from self-awareness, what other characteristics 
>make up a sophont?  Abstract reasoning?  Linguistic 
>processing?  Tool making? Economic life?  Planning for the 
>future?  Must all characteristics be present, or can the 
>presence of some or even only one be enough?  How can they 
>be measured?"

>	For example, the 'watchmakers' in "The Mote in God's
>	Eye" were apparently highly skilled technicians, but
>	otherwise seemed essentially unintelligent. I expect
>	that such extreme cases are unlikely unless the
>	species in question has been genetically tinkered.
>	So, if we design and build intelligent organisms
>	(or robots, or even laptop computers; the line between 
>	them becomes blured), are they then independent sophonts?

Let's make it even stickier - It's generally accepted in the late
Third Imperium that an AI Robot _cannot_ be a sophont or citizen;
IIRC, the rationale was that it was an artificial creation.  If
this attitude holds in the early Third Imperium, then would it be
possible to _disenfranchise_ some of the minor races that show
marked variation from the Solomani/Vilani/Zhodani norm? (e.g.,
the Geonee, or the geneered humans in Solomani space with the
humongous ears and larynxes who live on a planet where the only
way to handle long distance communication (severe electrical
storms on a near-continuous basis) is to shout from one island to
another)  After all, these races are clearly geneered, and
therefore arguably "artificial constructs".

What about people with prosthetics or bionics?  When do they
become less sophont than robot?

Worse still - working with the "artificial creation" issue, would
it be possible to deny that Norris's "true-daughter" is a sophont
or citizen?  What about Avery, who is likely to be a clone of
Strephon (though we don't know this for sure)?  Are Strephon's
ceremonial doubles clones, biological robots, or people who have
given up their independent lives in exchange for the luxury and
perqs of "being" the Emperor?  If they're not hired actors, are
they sophonts and citizens?

(Obviously, I've been reading again.  Equally obviously, HBP made
it easy on the Zarathustrans.)
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:16:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> How do you know that dogs, for instance, require outside stimulus to
> remember learned knowledge and that humans do not?

I really don't see why a dog couldn't be thinking about going out to play
fetch while he's busily devouring his dinner. No stimulous required. He
finishes dinner, goes and gets the stick and takes it to Master...

<wag wag, toss stick at feet> BARK!

Who is to say what a creature is thinking. Now *There* is an interesting
question though...

What role could PSIONICS play in helping us decide who is a sophant and
who is not?

IF you could read a being's mind, what would you look for to prove
"sophant" status?

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:17:43 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Ships and classification

I just discovered, and have to share with the list, an exquisite book
called "History of Warships: from ancient times to the twenty-first
century" by James L. George (1998, Naval Institute Press, ISBN
1-55750-312-5). 

_Run_ to your FLBS and get this puppy. If you want to have any
understanding of this subject that isn't super gearhead but not "dumbed
down", this is a great book. The Ship Classification thread recently
would well do with a revisit after reading this; especially the chapter
on modern (AD 1890 on...) cruisers.

If anyone else has read this, I would be interested in your thoughts on
it. 

William
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:24:10 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:40:25 -0500, AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>	I guess you can boil it down to "KNOWING THAT YOU KNOW"

In other words, "I think I think, therefore, I think I am.  I
think."
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:18:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters

Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> writes:

>	Well, IIRC no special protection is specified (as being
>	required or even recomended) in any CT source that I have.

Fair point.

>	Nor is there any provision for causing damage to those
>	nearby the designated target, except at longer ranges. Not
>	that such damage would necessarily be a bad idea, but I
>	would allow PCs who somehow got their destructive little
>	hands on a PGMP-12, PGMP-14, or even FGMP-15 to fire away
>	without being blinded or burned (unless, maybe, they hit
>	a wall or some such within 5 m). The trick for them is to
>	get a hold of one of these ;)

Personally, I prefer the rules in T4/EA which cover the superheated plasma
effects.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:42:34 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Hello

At 05:43 PM 24/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I am new to this list, so please excuse the ignorance.
>
>I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most of you
are playing the latest/greatest(?).
>
>Thanks,
>Jim
>

        Hi, Jim!
        I personally tried the "upgrade" from CT/HG to MT;  I sold me CT/HG
collection to pay for all the shiny new MT books....  the paperwork *killed*
the game.  I was fortunate to have a friend give me his entire and almost
complete CT/HG stuff, and I am very doubtful I will ever use anything but
for Traveller.
        So, that having been said, I don't use the "canon" Imperium...  I
run a TL9-11 game set near Earth in the year 2099...  check out my website
if you'd like more info.  I expect that if I had owned a PC back then, MT
would have been no problem at all and I would have stuck with it.  But with
the binders of paper I required for a moderately detailed 2-group
campaign...  forget it.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #350
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com


Traveller-digest       Friday, March 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 351



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Admin: On the Road Again . . .
Re: M:E21 World Expansion
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Hello
TL 11 - GPSOR Mk.III (General Purpose Scout Operations Robot) (CT Book 8 Robot)
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Straphon in his Prive Journal was IRIS
Re: GT: Far Trader Errata
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Kinetic Kill Missile Guidance
RE:  Still Running CT TML V1999 #347

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:29:43 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

Paul Schirf wrote:
> 
> Humorous Solution: The Imperial ambassador
> orders transmitter enabled robotic Rubic's
> Cubes to be airdropped...  They re-scramble
> when solved... and if solved again within ten
> minutes they signal the contact group.

Alternately, if the puzzles are manipulated (not merely handled) for at
least fifteen minutes, they signal the contact group....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:58:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Admin: On the Road Again . . .

I'm going to be off line, while we relocate to Raleigh, NC.  For those who
don't know, MPG-Net got acquired by Interactive Magic.  I should be back 
online around 3/31, but unitl then, I only have some one to watch the machine,
but he won't be playing list mom.

So, if anyone needs help unsubing, or other things, please help them.  Try to
avoid list explosions and hostitilities and other things like that.

Thanks
Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:18:10 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: M:E21 World Expansion

From:           	"Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Date sent:      	Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:44:55 -0600 (CST)

>PS The ESA's first explorer/scout vessel was named for Andrew M-V's 
>campaign, of course.  Thanks for the inspiration and direction, 
>Andrew.

I'm flattered. However about a year ago Micheal Bailey posted this (I've
slightly modified the design to make it 'legal', but it's still basically Micheal's
work):

Kosmonaut Yuri Gagarin, Kosmonaut Yuri Gagarin class Manned Probe
Designed by Micheal Bailey (modified by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)

Statistics
 Tons: 300 Td (USL Long Box)
 Crew: 4/4
 Cargo: 10 Td (1 Small Cargo Hatch, Handling: 4 x 35 ton)
 Volume: 4200m3
 Passengers High/Med: 0/0
 Cost: 624.71 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 3027t/2676t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 148
 Dimensions: 32.2m x 16.2m x 8m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 9
 Size: 8
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Computer, High automation. 3 x FibComp (CM:0.5 CP:2.0). No 
bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 1 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x Pas. Scanner (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0.01MW).
          1 x Pas. Tracker (13 [5mkm], 0.01MW).
          1 x AEMS (11 [0.16mkm], 1MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:-0.5 (-1 at 8MW), Act:0.5, Neu:-1, Grav:-2

Weaponry

Performance
 1 Jump (30 Td/pc fuel)
 0.6/0.6 Maneuver (NPulse: 0MW, 48.76 G-hours)
 0/0 Contra-grav
 n/a Atmosphere
 1 Power (Fission: 80MW, 1yr)
 0 Battery
 60 Fuel
 0/0/4/4/0 Accomodations (4 x Sanitary Fittings)
 52 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Extended, Normal Food [Stored])
 0 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 0 [20] Armor, 12 Structure

Features
 3 x Decontamination Airlock
 1 x Docking Umbilical
 1 x Electronic Shop (6 Td ea.)
 1 x Machine Shop (10 Td ea.)
 1 x Laboratory (8 Td ea.)
 1 x Sickbay (8 Td ea.)
 1 x Ship's locker (0.15 Td ea.)
 1 x Gym (2.5 Td ea.)
 1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 20)

Small Craft
 1 x USL Grapple (10 Td craft)

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 1 x Radio (1,000AU). 1 x Laser (1,000AU).
 Sensors: 1 x Pas. Scanner (12.5 [1.6mkm]). 1 x Pas. Tracker (13 [5mkm]).
          1 x AEMS (11 [0.16mkm]).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 2 x Helm
 2 x Engineering

Landing boat

Statistics
 Tons: 10 Td (AF Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic)
 Crew: 1/1
 Cargo: 0.25 Td (1 Small Cargo Hatch)
 Volume: 140m3
 Passengers High/Med: 0/0
 Cost: 2.69 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 98t/90t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 14
 Dimensions: 9.2m x 4.6m x 4.6m
 Troops/Science: 0/3
 Tech Level: 9
 Size: 7
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Computer, High automation. 3 x FltComp (CM:0.7 CP:1.43).
           Terrain following sensors (TF:390, NOE:130). No bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Radio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x AEMS (8, 0.13MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0, IR:-1.5 (-2.5 at 0MW, -2 at 0MW), Act:0, Neu:-3, Grav:-2

Weaponry

Performance
 0 Jump
 2/2.1 Maneuver (HD Liquid: 0MW, 0.0631 G-hours)
 0/0 Contra-grav
 2223kph/2412kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 1667kph/1809kph)
 0 Power (Fuel Cell: 0.37MW, 48hr)
 0 Battery
 0 Fuel
 0/0/0/0/0 Accomodations (1 x Sanitary Fitting, 4 x Roomy Seats)
 4 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Standard, Megre Food [Stored])
 0 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 0 [20] Armor, 0 Structure

Features
 1 x Decontamination Airlock

Small Craft

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 1 x Radio (50,000km). 1 x Laser (1,000AU).
 Sensors: 1 x AEMS (8).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 1 x Helm

While the United States was the first Terran nation to build a starship
capable of jumping interstellar distances, several other groups were in the
process of building starships when the 'Starleaper I' made it's historic
journey to Barnard's Star.

So close was the race that, before the Starleaper I returned from it's first
mission, the European Space Agency launched it's first strship, the
'Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin'. The ship jumped to Alpha Centauri, which was
considered less likely to have habitable planets than Barnard's Star, but
was somewhat closer to Terra. While the voyage of the Starleaper has become
enshrined in history, in many ways the Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin's voyage was
scarcely less important.

The American astronauts returned with news of intelligent life only two
parsecs away. The European crew discovered an eminently habitable world in
the Alpha Centauri system, which they named Prometheus. Plans were quickly
drawn up to claim and colonise the world for Terran humans, even as the
United Nations drifted closer to war with the Vilani.

The Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin is a primitive design, lacking gravitics, fusion
power and other components considered necessary in later vessels. Crew
facilities are cramped and uncomfortable. Nonetheless Several examples of
the Cosmonaut Class Scout/Probe were built from AD 2088 to AD 2098, but 
were
quickly made obselete. The Yuri Gagarin herself was preserved in orbit
around Terra as a heritage piece. There it survived over three thousand
years, before being reduced to slag by the Imperial Navy as it laid seige to
Terra in the final phase of the Solomani Rim War.

An evolutionary development of the Cosmopnaut Class ships entered service
with the fledgeling Terran naval forces in AD 2098. The 'Yarvin Shekerdze'
class gunships mounted a primitive missile battery, and were among the first
warships fielded by the Terrans as the built their forces prior to the 1st
Interstellar War.

>
>==============================
>Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
>(512)458-7111 ext. 3375
>
>Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
>==============================
>



Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:11:36 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

In a message dated 3/25/99 7:04:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< 
 Soooo, what...it's so because you say it is? 
 
 You made assertions in your earlier statement that do not seem to hold
 up. 
 
 How do you know that dogs, for instance, require outside stimulus to
 remember learned knowledge and that humans do not?
  >>

	I was engaged in pure sophistry.   

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:34:13 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hello

> I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or if most of you
> are playing the latest/greatest(?).

I was 2 when CT came out.  12 when MT came out.  I missed 'em (I started rpgs
w/ AD&D2 when I was... 15 IIRC).  :-)  

I use TNE rules (the "latest/greatest" IMO).   And the TNE Reformation
Coalition setting- think Solomani Confederation, lacking the human supremacism
(though that's kinda present with one obscure psuedo-faction) and Party
domination (ugh).
The basic prominent battle is between Centrists and Federalists (big and small
govt, respectively, in a nutshell).

I'm going to be starting up a 3D Alternate Universe, set relatively new
future,using FF&S and TNE rules set.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:46:30 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: TL 11 - GPSOR Mk.III (General Purpose Scout Operations Robot) (CT Book 8 Robot)

TL 11 - GPSOR Mk.III (General Purpose Scout Operations Robot) 
                     
Total Vol               105L
Volume Left             1.9L
                     
Total Power            40kW
Power Left                8.5kW
                     
Total Weight:        228.11kgs
Thrust:                   400kgs
Manevuer:              0.75g
                     
Endurance         36 hours ops 
Fuel carried         9L

Apparent Stats        
    STR           5      
    DEX       15      
    INT           1      
    EDU         4      
                      
Chassis Damage Points 
  Incapacitated:       21      
  Destroyed:               53
  Armored as:             Cloth 
                    
Total Cost   Cr 98,705.00 

2 Light arms, 1 Head
Basic Sensor Package   (2 optical, 2 audio, 1 olfactory)
  + Passive IR           
  +Telescopic            
Voder                 
Radiation Sensor       
Zero-G Manuever        
Radio, Distant Range   
Video Recorder         
Brain Interface        
Mechanical Tool Package

Prg:  Mechanical -2   
Prg:  Survey-1        
Prg:  Recon-1         
Prg:  Rescue-1        
Prg:  Cargo Handling-1

        Notes:  The GPSOR Mk.III (General Purpose Scout Operations Robot) is
intended as a "Scout's Assistant" on one or two-man crew voyages.   Its
design, equipment fit and programs are optimized around providing facilities
that would be useful in such circumstances.

        O/_______________________________
        O\
                                  URP     Vol (L)   Power   Wt (kg)
Price (Cr)     Notes
1.   Chassis  Size:        5       100                            10
1,000            Chassis Type I
             Config:          2
100           Cylinder/ Cone, Mesh Armou
             Armour:                                                     15
1,500            Cloth
                                 =======================================
                                             100             0
25       2,600.00

                                  URP     Vol (L)   Power   Wt (kg)
Price (Cr)     Notes
2.  Powerplant
                 System:       3      -50            40             75
1,200           Type D, 40Kw
             Fuel Tank:                 -9                            0.63
36 hours ops
                                 =======================================
                                             -59            40
75.63     1,200.00

                                  URP     Vol (L)   Power   Wt (kg)
Price (Cr)     Notes
3.  Locomotion            E       -20           -8              12
10,000         400kg thrust

                                  URP     Vol (L)   Power   Wt (kg)
Price (Cr)     Notes
4.  Appendage 
              Head:                         5          -1             1.25
130.00
             Rt Arm:                       -1                           1
1,750            Very Light, +0 STR
             Lt Arm:                        -1                           1
1,750            Very Light, +0 STR
                                 =======================================
                                                5            -3
3.25       3,630.00

                                  URP     Vol (L)   Power   Wt (kg)
Price (Cr)     Notes
5.  Equipment
     Basic Sensor Package                      -4            3
1,7002       Optical, 2 Audio, 1 Olfactory
             + Passive IR                               -1             1
200.00
             +Telescopic                              -1              2
200.00
     Voder                                                -2               3
1,200.00
     Radiation Sensor                              -1             0.5
1,200            50km range
     Zero-G Manuever                            -1                4
2,000.00
     Radio, Distant Range                      -0.5             0.1
5km
     Video Recorder                                -3               4
600.00
     Brain Interface                                 -1               1
1,200             Allows high-speed data transfer between 
                                                                            
                                            robot and other robots or computers.
    Mechanical Tool Package                  -5           25
2,500           As per Mechanical Toolkit
                                 =======================================
                                            0                -19.5
43.6          10,875.00

                                                       URP     CPU
Storage          Price      Notes
6.  Software
             High Data                        1         8             10
3,000      +1 Dext, Remembers everything,
                                                                            
                             can learn from "experience", 
                                                                            
                            self-improve skills.  Commands must 
                                                                            
                            be explicit.
             Basic Command             1        2              2
1,000         '+1 INT, can interpret simple,
                                                                            
                             verb-object commans like "show
                                                                            
                             the starport data".
             Prg:  Mechanical -2                                 8
1,600.00
             Prg:  Survey-1                                           8
1,200.00
             Prg:  Recon-1                                           2
800.00
             Prg:  Rescue-1                                          8
400.00
             Prg:  Cargo Handling-1                           4
400.00
                                 =======================================
                                                              10
42               8,400.00

                                    URP     Vol (L)   Power   Wt (kg)
Price (Cr)     Notes
7.  Brain
     CPU, Parallel         -2.5                      -1         0.5
50,000          5 CPU, +1 INT
       CPU, Linear          -0.6                                  0.3
1,500          3 CPU, +0 INT
  Storage, Standard   -21                                   4.2          10,500
                                   =======================================
                                  -24.1                      -1          5
62000
        O/_______________________________
        O\

        As always, comments, questions and critiques welcome!

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:34:18 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

> or citizen?  What about Avery, who is likely to be a clone of
> Strephon (though we don't know this for sure)?  Are Strephon's

Avery is not a clone.  RSB (pg 84) is pretty clear he's "the biological son of
Strephon and the dead Empress Iolanthe," conceived in vitro, using ova that
had been removed from Iolanthe in her youth (probably a habit to take "DNA
evidence" from Emperors and ova from the Empresses).

> ceremonial doubles clones, biological robots, or people who have
> given up their independent lives in exchange for the luxury and
> perqs of "being" the Emperor?  If they're not hired actors, are
> they sophonts and citizens?

Strephon's doubles were clones, as Arrival Vengeance (pg 22) indicates, though
he rarely kept them around because they raised "difficult existential
questions that keep coming back."  He says he could have given them new lives
and let them "become real."  The RSB Library Data indicates that simulacrum
(clones fashioned to duplicate the original; a tradition dating to Paulo I for
heirs to the Iridium Throne to be cloned in infancy for ceremonial doubles)
had a dubious status as sophonts.  Some Emperors created programs to
rehabilitate their doubles and enter society as "real persons" while others
simply ordered them destroyed upon their deaths.  

Psuedobios?  What happened to AB-101 when Strephon discovered Dr Kranstein's
(?) construction?  It was discovered, wasn't it?  (I only have a couple
Traveller's Digests).  I imagine Cleon's ruling against robots would hold
against Psuedobios.  *Exhibiting* but not possessing sentience.  Course, I
expect that doubletalk from Cleon.  ;-)

Surgical (human) doubles would definately be sophonts, unless the "real"
Emperor wanted to just make them "disapear" or keep someone from spilling the
beans.  Beyond the waving and smiling, and the obvious opulence they would
live in, I don't think these guys who have a whole lot of fun.  



Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:45:30 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Straphon in his Prive Journal was IRIS

Private journals are manufactured by their creators for various reasons
most often in the political area to provide 'spin' for the writer's
vision of their reality. For example, Strephon could be disparaging IRIS
because that is a reflection of his negative opinion of them (especially
since IRIS didn't step right up and say he was the "true" emperor. Or
Strephon knows that his diary/journal isn't private, either it is
accessed by skullduggery or maybe his private chamberlain transcribes
the Emperors voice recorder into a log (at TL 15-16?) Most likely
Strephon wants his successors to have access to his "spin" on what's
going on. (MTU IRIS recognized Norris as the Regent Pro Tem of the 3I
and was beginning the foundations of a negotiated settlement between
Norris and Margaret. IRIS versus the Vermene CIA vs KGB Pt Deux) Does
anyone think Patton's, Nixon's, Rommel's, or Longstreet's memoirs are
the out-and- out truth? Memoirs are often just fiction with enough fact
to make them believable. we sometimes learn more about the writer than
the history of the era  they lived in.  After all, how long did it take
to figure out that the "Hitler Diaries" were bogus. I wouldn't believe
Strephon's account if he dictated it to me personally!

MUSASHI

Would anyone like to take a stab at team writing a proposal for G:T
Espionage?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:05:50 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Errata

- ----------
> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com

> There are already about a dozen errata in the que, but I hadn't seen one
> here. I don't have the book with me; I'll check when I get home. In the
> meantime, are you certain you're using the right units? The maintenance
> formula in VE2 is based on $, that in T:FT on MCr. Big difference.

Geeze, wouldn't you know it.  I think I'm responsible for the change in the
original book form 0.0048 to 4.8.  I was getting unreasonably small crew
sizes during the playtest because I was inputting ship price in MCr. Using
price in MCr seemed more reasonable because tha6t's the way it's listed in
ship descriptions.  I guess there's no happy medium.   

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:05:36 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Batishko <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
: Oh. Well, now I guess that explains why I'm currently unemployed... :)

Yay!  Glad I'm not the only one around here.


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:33:25 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

> Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>

>  "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net> wrote:
> 
> >dolphins are mentioned in some Traveller material as being sophonts. > >even today we might attribute dophins with the capability of
> >abstract reasoning and linguistic processing.  I would even go so far 
> >as to say dolphins would be (are) capable of _using_ tools.  However, 
> >due to dolphin physiology (most notably a lack of manipulative 
> >appendages), they would be hard pressed to _make_ tools.

Half of all dolphins do in fact have an appendage which in fact they are
capable of using for slight manipulation.

> IIRC, The tool making problem does not apply to dolphins because they
> were genetically engineered by humans to allow them to press buttons
> with "fingers" on their flippers.

In Traveller they need the Waldo skill to use the Waldos that are can be
surgically attached and they need a set of the waldos (CR 250,000 IIRC).

However because primates are capable of using tools primates are capable
of thinking of using tools in different ways.  Even if (and that is not
a small if) a cetacean had a high general intelligence their brains are
not as used to considering the possibility of tool use.  Since humans
can use tools they gain evolutionary advantage from using them in clever
ways.  Therefore tool using ability is evolutionarily selected for. 
Since cetaceans can not use tools the ability to use tools well has not
been selected for.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:43:18 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

At 04:49 pm 3/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:50 -0800
>>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>>
>>older and busier with other things in my life (as Les Howie once
>>remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things:
a
>>career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.:
>that's
>>not an exact quotation, just my memory), I've tended to try to use
>more
>
>Oh. Well, now I guess that explains why I'm currently unemployed...
:)

	Hey! I've beem gypped! Somebody owes me either enough time for
gaming OR a love relationship! Boy, whatta decision ...

	
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:38 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Kinetic Kill Missile Guidance

A few points of order:

Several people have mentioned that you can detect objects with an apparent
diameter smaller than their sensor resolution.  This is clearly true.
However, using a star- i.e. a massive all-wavelength EMITTER, is a very bad
comparison with a small masked target.  After all, the only part of the
missile that will be seen is the 2m diameter ablative-foam "mushroom" shield
on the tip.  While hardly very sophisticated, a very-low density foam will
be a very, very good EMS shield.  At best, the shield will be a few
fractions of a degree above ambient background radiation.  As for the fusion
plume, which will be VERY visible with any passive sensor array, it is only
on during the initial run in and last couple of seconds.  The use of
compressed gas steering jets should be plenty sufficient for course
corrections.
     A note, when I designed this missile, I assumed it wasn't for use
during pitched battles- basically, it was for use during ambushes and raids.
Thus a main premise was the ability to gain high velocities unobserved, then
use the energy generated for a "sneak" attack that is only obvious at the
very last second.  A good example would be to "run it up" from behind, say a
gas giant, and then run cold until almost at the target.  That's the reason
for no active sensors.  Basically, passive sensors would be unlikely to
detect it until such close range that reaction was impossible due to the
short time till impact.

As for stopping, once again, the "guidance" is command control, which means
that the control unit can be safely placed in the back, shielded by the bulk
of the missile.  Note:  This is a good reason for escorts.  While,
theoretically, a PDL could simply keep firing until the KKM is vaporized, in
reality, the missile depends first, on coming in undetected, and second,
using its mass to absorb the (relatively) low-powered PDL blasts.

Finally, I never though this would be a torpedo in space- it is simply too
easy for an enemy aware of it to stop it.  OTOH, it certainly is a
channelizing weapon- even a Tigress captain will think twice about getting
hit by one.   I don't want to re-start the near-C rock wars, but one method
I thought of was to have a carrier ship boost normal missiles to high
relative velocities for attacks on predicatable targets- frontier refueling,
anyone?

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:30 -0700
From: "Eric T.  or  Maryann C. Holmes" <holmberg@thuntek.net>
Subject: RE:  Still Running CT TML V1999 #347

Fellow TMLers:

Yep, I'm still running CT with my own mods, of course!
All Heretics, ARISE!

I'm in the ABQ, NM area.  Merrick, I know you're out there.

I'm not a hard science referee or gearhead.  I have this wee
little brain and can't maintain much data in the thimble.....




>
>Jim Hopper writes:
>"I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or 
>if most of you are playing the latest/greatest(?)."
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #351
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 352



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller [Long-esque]
Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller
Re: GT: Far Trader Errata
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: Superdense (was Re: max accel)
Re: Kinetic Kill Missile Guidance
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Looking for....
Re: Looking for....
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: M:E21 World Expansion
re: Max Accel
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Which Version?
Re: GT: Far Trader Errata
Re: Question for anyone
Brain Drain (was re: trav Digest...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 00:07:03 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller [Long-esque]

On 03/23/99 at 05:39 PM,  Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> said:

>	For those already using/interested in FUDGE, I've included the
>handout I gave to my players below.  You might be especially
>interested in the combat system, which is my own special creation... 

>(Eris, since you're the resident FUDGE expert (?) maybe you can tell
>me: Do I have to put the legal stuff from FUDGE on this?  I've done
>so here just to be safe, but maybe I'm being neurotic?)

I'm not sure I'm the resident expert, but I *do* like FUDGE. ;->

You have to include it in stuff you publish, but here on the
list...frankly, I don't know.  We don't print Far Future's legal
stuff on all our posts, so I guess we don't have to post FUDGE's
legal stuff on everything either.  I'm sure you do if you publish
something, or put up a web page.

One thing I like about FUDGE is that there are as many ways to play
it as there are GM's...Ok, there are *more* ways than there are
GM's. ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 00:15:56 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller

On 03/23/99 at 08:34 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>Ahh...Brother Eris, we have another convert to the dark, sticky and
>sweet side ;-)

FUDGE...good! 
Traveller...good!

Ummm?  FUDGE Traveller...GOOD! ;->

>Very cool, Charles, VERY well done one pager. Did your players
>actually get around to combat? How did you do things like guns? (If
>you want, somewhere around here I have an old, old rec.games.frp post
>entitled FudgeGunz dealing with the subject...)

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:17:10 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Errata

> > From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> > To: traveller@mpgn.com
> 
> > There are already about a dozen errata in the que, but I hadn't seen one
> > here. I don't have the book with me; I'll check when I get home. In the
> > meantime, are you certain you're using the right units? The maintenance
> > formula in VE2 is based on $, that in T:FT on MCr. Big difference.
> 
> Geeze, wouldn't you know it.  I think I'm responsible for the change in
> the original book form 0.0048 to 4.8.  I was getting unreasonably small
> crew sizes during the playtest because I was inputting ship price in MCr.
> Using price in MCr seemed more reasonable because tha6t's the way it's
> listed in ship descriptions.  I guess there's no happy medium.   

Actually, I was using the wrong units.  If I use MCr instead of the full 
price, the formula works.  My bag.

Interesting to note that my 4 Billion Credit, 10K dTon ship only 
requires a crew of 38 to keep it up.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:17:27 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

>Reminds me of a quote: "the intelligence of the universe is a constant;
>the population keeps increasing."
>
>What is insanity, btw? It's usually defined by a society, as in "marked
>deviation from the cultural norms", making anyone sufficiently different
>"insane". Bottom line, there is no final arbiter of insanity or sanity,
>only as measured against the present society. The only unchangeable
>standard I can think of is Darwinian evolution.

Yep, and my main contention was that attempted control of our diversiity (in
any direction, up, down sideways) reduces our capability for survival, because
it's the diversity that's our strong point.

>As to Frank Pitt's suggestion that intelligence is being bred out of
>modern Western society, how do you account for the breakthroughs in
>genetics and world wide communciations, which happened primarily in the
>West?

Simple, most of them have been made by _in_ the West but by Chinese, Indian,
Russian, etc, researchers.

I have no idea, whether it's at all true, but what I do know is that US and
other Western countries are increasingly importing high tech and scientific
personnel from "third world" locations because they can't find the skills,
knowledge and ability locally.

A delegation of Silicon Valley CEOs recently went to see Clinton to lobby him
into preventing the imposition of stronger immigration restrictions for exacty
that reason, they claimed the US was unable to produce the sort of highly
skilled and knowledgable people they needed.

This is nothing new as well. Way back in 1979 Jerr Pournelle and Robert
Heinlien were bemoaning the lack of engineerig graduates coming out of US
colleges, and predicting that the US would have to import it's engineers in
future. With Jerry and Robert's patriotism, they actually tried to prevent
such articles getting to overseas locations back then !

>On your theory, the Chinese would be the lowest intellectually,
>since their culture for millenia has been one of being satisfied with
>the status quo (the theory being that they're already a perfect society,
>so why embrace the new?).

Well, that would assume that they were correct. I'd say that actually, China
is not an easy place to survive, at least not as easy as the West now, so they
would still be needing intelligence.

>I don't think you can breed out intelligence--perhaps our society needs
>to redefine successful evolutionary strategies instead. We make
>dim-witted people rich and famous for playing a sport well, when most
>scientists live in obscurity. Denis (SP?) Rodman isn't a genius, he's
>just eccentric and way to wealthy compared to his positive impact on
>society. Monica Lewinsky, whose genetic code would probably serve the
>human race best if left in obscurity, is now a star. Need I continue?

That's not the problem really, as they are only individuals. It's all the
millions of people
who stay alive who would have died if they'd had to make their own food and
shelter that tips the scales.

Basically, "social responsibility" is anti-darwinian.
<grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:31:03 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: max accel

Dear Folks -

In answer to an earlier post, Leonard wrote:
>Why bother? As I noted, a Rampart can zip by at Mach 25. The shock wave
>alone would shred the F22, and probably at several miles range!

Actually, the Rampart can probably zip THROUGH the F22 and suffer no ill
effects...

;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:42:15 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

>And in fact, enhanced technology is having the reverse effect on the United
>States, where all measures of intelligence are decreasing, and the decline in
>"native" US intelligence is only just being  offset by imports of highly
>intelligent people from India and Eastern Europe.

Where did you hear this? Raw and generalized intelligence scores have been
increasing ever since IQ tests have been invented, especially in
first-world countries. Theories for this Flynn Effect vary, but it has been
quite well documented.

>One reasoning  behind this is that people don't need intelligence to survive
>in Western countries anymore, so it no longer serves an evolutionary purpose
>and is thus being "bred out"

Some have claimed the exact opposite, that the Flynn effect is caused by
modern technology favoring higher intelligence. However, the rise in
intelligence scores is too rapid to be caused by genetic change. Western
civilization has not existed long enough to account for any significant
change in human genetics.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:48:41 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Superdense (was Re: max accel)

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>

> while a rampart could be going mach 25 in space I dought that it could
> do so in the atmosphere for more than the few seconds that reentry 
> interface takes to brake it.  The heat caused by air friction at that 
> speed would melt titanium if it were maitained for any real length of time.

The Ramparts hull is not made of titanium, it is made of bonded
superdense.

What is the melting point of superdense & of bonded superdense anyone?

Hard Times has a bit where they use an arcwelder on a starship hull,
although we do not learn what type of material that hull is made of
still this may provide a slight clue.

We know how strong & dense superdense is, do we know what its melting
point is?  Is it magnetic?  What color or colors is it?  How does it
wear?  How malleable is it?  What is its heat conductivity?  How about
its coefficient of friction [a phrase that is, alas, not as dirty as it
sounds].

Do we know anything else about it either?  Superdense what?  What metals
(or other substances?) do you start with before doing what to them to
get superdense? 

FF&S2 says (pg 63) Superdense "A material whose molecular structure has
been partially collapsed by intense artificial gravity felds, increasing
both density & strength".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:57:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missile Guidance

 
> fractions of a degree above ambient background radiation.  As for the fusion
> plume, which will be VERY visible with any passive sensor array, it is only
> on during the initial run in and last couple of seconds.  The use of
> compressed gas steering jets should be plenty sufficient for course
> corrections.

Maybe. Two problems:

1. Easy to model in a hex-map combat system. Let missile boost fer a
turn, then only use gs to make contact on turn of "kill." If they
are the same, or consecutive turns, you get no benefits for being
"quiet." (BTW, your course might move on the order of a missile
diameter or two with jets, but not more than that--gas jets would
never work for course corrections on the order of multi-g
maneuvering targets.)

2.  the last seconds to contact are also within the range where
lasers can't possibly miss. So if target is evading, and shooting,
missile misses. Target only shoots and it might get hit. Target only
evades, it might get hit.

> gas giant, and then run cold until almost at the target.  That's the reason
> for no active sensors.  Basically, passive sensors would be unlikely to
> detect it until such close range that reaction was impossible due to the
> short time till impact.
 
In this mode a useful weapon, IMO. Model it in a combat system as I
suggest above. Dunno about what kind of mod it might get. 

> As for stopping, once again, the "guidance" is command control, which means
> that the control unit can be safely placed in the back, shielded by the bulk
> of the missile.  Note:  This is a good reason for escorts.  While,
> theoretically, a PDL could simply keep firing until the KKM is vaporized, in
> reality, the missile depends first, on coming in undetected, and second,
> using its mass to absorb the (relatively) low-powered PDL blasts.
 
But it still has sensors, right? A stand off mother ship will have
massive light-lag problems.

> Finally, I never though this would be a torpedo in space- it is simply too
> easy for an enemy aware of it to stop it.  OTOH, it certainly is a
> channelizing weapon- even a Tigress captain will think twice about getting
> hit by one.   I don't want to re-start the near-C rock wars, but one method
> I thought of was to have a carrier ship boost normal missiles to high
> relative velocities for attacks on predicatable targets- frontier refueling,
> anyone?

I really like space torpedos :-) A use for fighters. Fighters boost
missiles and drop them on intercept vector. Fighters drive away, hot
engines aglow. Targets see, fighters, see them turn to some nnew
heading, but don't see missiles since they are in a standby mode til
they get close enough to lock and hit targets.

the torpedo could beam back its sensor data, and the distant command
control could simply be to release the weapon to attack. the
operator on the fighter or ship then watches his display... hit
chances are flashing for each weapon he controls. He can wait and
maybe miss a target (lag is a problem for him), or release them too
soon and have them get shot down when they expose themselves by
thrusting (becoming instantly visible). Kinda neat.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:22:08 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

At 04:34 PM 3/25/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> I would however offer as a working definition:   a being is a sophont if
>it is
>> aware of itself as a separate being from the universe at large, and is
>aware
>> of the knowledge that it possesess.
>
><good natured jibe>
>Allow me to pick at nits for a moment, just to show how difficult it is to
>define (sophont, sapient, sentient, self-aware, ad nausem)
>
>A great many beings which inhabit Terra circa 2000 A.D., and are considered
>to be sentient, consider themselves to be 'one' with the universe at large.
>

Well, according to the OED, 

sapience: correct taste or judgement

Therefore, anyone who disagrees with me or has poor taste, is clearly not
sapient.  Easy.... :)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:19:11 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Looking for....

I'm trying to find Clay Bush, the author of some TNE stuff that I'm trying
to get hold of. Anyone know where I could find him?

"The face to launch a thousand dredgers."
Jack de Manio, a British broadcaster speaking of the actress Glenda Jackson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:08:29 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Looking for....

In a message dated 3/26/99 6:32:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cjbrain@bigpond.com writes:

<< I'm trying to find Clay Bush, the author of some TNE stuff that I'm trying
 to get hold of. Anyone know where I could find him? >>


	There is a link to his e-mail at the History of the Imperium Working Group
Website (under the Officers section)

	http://users.jancomulti.com/mroger/HIWG/index.html


			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:43:58 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

At 17:39 25/03/1999 -0500, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>I think the fairest way would be to send a representative of the species to
>some council to determine if they are sophonts.  You aren't allowed to
enslave
>that species until it gets certified as non-sophontic.  Once you get that
>certification, you can abuse them as you see fit.
>
It might be fair but it's hardly practical.

A simpler solution would be to read the IISS report for the planet.

If the scout who wrote it says they are sophonts, then they are
sophonts, otherwise they aren't.

Obviously, there would be an appeals procedure - the species can lodge
an appeal at the subsector capital. If approved, it would be passed
on to the sector duke, then referred up to the domain archduke.

If not rejected it would go before the Moot and they could decide
if it was fit to be put before the emperor who would then decree
once and for all time their status.

Presumably, this procedure could also be used in reverse.

If they don't appeal, they aren't sophonts.

"I don't know, the plans are at the subsector capital only 7 parsecs
 away. If you can't even be bothered to take an interest in local
 politics, I don't see why I should have any sympathy for you."

:-)

Phil Kitching

(and appologies to Mr Adams for the mangled quote.)


- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:18:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: M:E21 World Expansion

From:          "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>

> >PS The ESA's first explorer/scout vessel was named for Andrew M-V's 
> >campaign, of course.  Thanks for the inspiration and direction, 
> >Andrew.
> 
> I'm flattered. However about a year ago Micheal Bailey posted this (I've
> slightly modified the design to make it 'legal', but it's still basically Micheal's
> work):
> 
> Kosmonaut Yuri Gagarin, Kosmonaut Yuri Gagarin class Manned Probe
> Designed by Micheal Bailey (modified by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
> 

<<Stats clipped to save bandwidth>>

> While the United States was the first Terran nation to build a starship
> capable of jumping interstellar distances, several other groups were in the
> process of building starships when the 'Starleaper I' made it's historic
> journey to Barnard's Star.
> 
> So close was the race that, before the Starleaper I returned from it's first
> mission, the European Space Agency launched it's first strship, the
> 'Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin'. The ship jumped to Alpha Centauri, which was
> considered less likely to have habitable planets than Barnard's Star, but
> was somewhat closer to Terra. While the voyage of the Starleaper has become
> enshrined in history, in many ways the Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin's voyage was
> scarcely less important.
> 
> The American astronauts returned with news of intelligent life only two
> parsecs away. The European crew discovered an eminently habitable world in
> the Alpha Centauri system, which they named Prometheus. Plans were quickly
> drawn up to claim and colonise the world for Terran humans, even as the
> United Nations drifted closer to war with the Vilani.

So noted.  I will make appropriate changes in my campaign's personal 
timeline, and save the name Prometheus Rising for another ship worthy 
of it.  :)  Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:29:54 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: re: Max Accel

>Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>>Oh, GREAT.  Just freakin' GREAT.
>>
[snip]
>Kenji,
>
>Which rules set has the willy in? I can't find it in COACC or FFS1/2? What
>stats does it have? And does it have a handwave to make the Physics work?

[must...resist...opening...for...crass...puns...]

I'll resist temptation and just invite everyone to "write their own joke".

[Besides, "Black Ice" beat me to the punch]

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:43:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 04:49 pm 3/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:50 -0800
> >>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
> >>
> >>older and busier with other things in my life (as Les Howie once
> >>remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things:
> a
> >>career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.:
> >that's
> >>not an exact quotation, just my memory), I've tended to try to use
> >more
> >
> >Oh. Well, now I guess that explains why I'm currently unemployed...
> :)
> 
>         Hey! I've beem gypped! Somebody owes me either enough time for
> gaming OR a love relationship! Boy, whatta decision ...

Would it work if it was a love/hate relationship??? Since that term logically
canels out...

Gearheadus Minimus.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:52:53 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

Jeff Zeitlen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>	I guess you can boil it down to "KNOWING THAT YOU KNOW"

In other words, "I think I think, therefore, I think I am.  I
think."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Better yet, from the perspective of the IISS:

"If you tell me that you think, I'll think that you think."

From the perspective of the Imperium:

"If you try to trade with us, we'll think that you think."

I know there will be lots of borderline cases, but I'll bet the "average"
sophont (as the IISS and the Imperium think of them) will be pretty
easy to spot. Society, tools, communities, communication, curiosity
about first contact teams, etc. Of course, that's why the IISS and the 
Imperium think of them this way...they meet expectations. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:55:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Which Version?

From Glenn M. Goffin
> > Jim Hopper writes:
> > "I am curious about how many of you are still playing CT, or 
> > if most of you are playing the latest/greatest(?)."

I prefer the MT system with my own background.  I'm also working on 
rules for Traveller HERO, but since I've succeeded in convincing my 
die-hard HERO players to give MT a try, I can spend more time in a 
system I'm comfortable with.  Loved CT, although MT works better for 
me.  TNE rules turned me off, and it's taken a while to get over the 
Virus slam on the OTU, but I'm getting better.  I just got a copy of 
T4 from Half-Priced Books day before yesterday, and am now 
reevaluating my position on that, so the jury's still out. Looking 
forward to T5, though.

Glenn again:
> I usually use MT rules, especially the task system.  My campaigns are
> usually set in the Spinward Marches before, during, or just after the
> Fifth Frontier War, so the background is solidly CT.  As I've gotten
> older and busier with other things in my life (as Les Howie once
> remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things: a
> career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.: that's
> not an exact quotation, just my memory)

This is going to be such a shock to my girlfriend.  :)

No, seriously, the more emphasis I place on one or two of these, the 
more the remainder suffer.  Still seeking the correct balance, but at 
least I get to roll dice twice a week, while my SO watches TV or 
sews.  (She's happy, I'm happy, my gamers are happy.  Work complains 
a little, though.)

A Fellow Traveller,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:05:32 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Errata

>> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:10:54 -0600
>> From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
>> Subject: GT:Far Trader Errata
>> 
>> The formula for maintenance states a fudge factor of 4.8.  This a bit 
>> high.  I think the playtest version stated 0.0048.  That one seems to 
>> work a bit better.  Otherwise, my ships require crews that are 
>> unimaginably large!
>> 
>> Am I missing something here or is this wrong?
>

Okay, I checked and the formula in the book (p. 75) is correct. It is also
pretty aggressively labeled "price in MCr" in the appropriate places, so I
guess that isn't the problem. Were you perhaps taking the result, which is
in man-hours per day, and using it for a total maintenance crew requirement
instead? I can see where that could happen.

For what it's worth, I checked all the sample ships in the appendix (pp.
136-140) against the maintenance requirement. I only had to add one or two
extra crewmembers (over what pp. GT149-150 requires) to one design to meet
it, although I did have to tweak just who I counted as "maintenance
personnel" depending on the ship.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:15:21 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Question for anyone

At 01:47 PM 3/25/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Is there a planet/system design mailing list or webring anyone knows of?
>
>THE LOCALIZER
>jeffg@ionstorm.com
>

        No, but I would be happy to administer/ set-up both....

        --Michel
        (who owns his own listserv)

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:25:32 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Brain Drain (was re: trav Digest...)

Frank Pitt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have no idea, whether it's at all true, but what I do know is that US and
other Western countries are increasingly importing high tech and scientific
personnel from "third world" locations because they can't find the skills,
knowledge and ability locally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There's more to it than that.

The need for technological skills is endless - no matter how many people
your country could provide right now, you could always use more. The
USA has such a standard of living compared to other countries that people
come here. Would you stay home and work for laborer's wages if you
could come here and get a middle-class or higher standard of living?

Third-world students come to the US to learn high-tech skills because
the US has a reputation for teaching first-rate engineers and scientists.
These students are usually meant (by whomever paid their way) to come
back to their homeland and contribute those skills to improve the
standard of living where they came from. Many do go home, many
notice that they can make hundreds of thousands of dollars and live
in a first-world country if they stay in the US. If they go home, they'll
make a few tens of thousands of dollars - if they aren't killed in a civil
uprising or jailed as an enemy of the state. 

If I'm an American engineering student and flunk out, I can probably
end up with a moderately comfortable lower-middle-class job in
a safe area with good food and reasonable education for my kids. Compare
that to what awaits a third-world foriegn exchange student - not if he
flunks out, but if he doesn't excel well enough to get research fellowships,
good job offers, or positions with American universities.

I've worked four years at universities. The desperation I've seen from some
foreign exchange students, and even visiting foriegn professors, makes me 
want to watch my back. That's one way to instill a work ethic.

Furthermore, the US has labs and science facilities that are legendary
to the rest of the world. The top-flight scientists of other countries come
here because the facilities are often tech levels above what their home
countries can make available to them.

Walt Smith

ObTrav: Can any low-tech Imperial world prevent a brain drain? All the
smart, motivated people find a way to get off-world employment and
high-tech education (Scouts, Army, Marines, etc.), those who stay
behind can't compete with the off-world corporate interests who want
to exploit local resources. A low-tech world might get to a point where
every doctor, techie and administrator has more in common with
off-worlders than they do with the locals. More division between the
Traveller Elite and the Unwashed Masses.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #352
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 353



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Neo-Darwinist claptrap
Starport blueprints
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #352
Re: max accel
Re: Which Version?
FF&S 3 additions
Re: Straphon in his Prive Journal was IRIS
Re: Zho' Martial Arts Styles (was Gurps Books)
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Apropos of Nothing
kinetic kill
Career/Love/Gaming
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Far Trader
Re: Future psychology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:42:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Neo-Darwinist claptrap

Frank Pitt wrote:
> 

> >As to Frank Pitt's suggestion that intelligence is being bred out of
> >modern Western society, how do you account for the breakthroughs in
> >genetics and world wide communciations, which happened primarily in the
> >West?
> 
> Simple, most of them have been made by _in_ the West but by Chinese, Indian,
> Russian, etc, researchers.

Ah Bullsh*t...this is all neo-Darwinian claptrap. The _reason_ that there are
so many foreign graduate students in the US is that the US graduate schools
are considered superior.

> I have no idea, whether it's at all true, but what I do know is that US and
> other Western countries are increasingly importing high tech and scientific
> personnel from "third world" locations because they can't find the skills,
> knowledge and ability locally.

Again, bullsh*t! They are doing so because foreign labor is _cheaper_ pure and
simple. A foreign employee automatically has the hammer of the INS over them
to keep 'em in line.

All of those Silicon Valley execs pissing and moaning about how they have a
talent shortage is just posturing. 

They have a _cheap, young_ talent shortage. 

Silicon Valley, in many ways, is worse than Hollywood...if you're over 30,
you're washed up, though in this case it's not because you might look old, but
because you no longer have the desire to work 80-90 hour weeks for $40k plus
stock options in a company that has never made a dime. You want to be treated
like a human, and have a life of your own. If you're 40 and not an executive
in your own company and a paper millionare? Fuggedaboutit! go way, we don't
want you! Doncha' know, anyone over 35 is worthless can't learn a thing, don't
know the hot paradigm of the moment.

RANT/

What we seem to be having is a hard time distinguishing reality from cynical
partisan propaganda. Did you know, in fact, that US student test scores have
been steadily increasing, and were not really all that low, that the crime
rate has dropped precipitously and that the majority of computer and systems
engineers in the US are Americans?

Of course not, that isn't news! What's news is anecdotes about a high-schooler
who graduated unable to read, or can't find Africa on a map or random horrific
crimes happening to someone, or there are no competent programmers left in
America. Yes, Jerry Springer presents an accurate portrayal of average
Americans, and all our city streets are JUST like what you see on COPS! We're
getting dumber, because our TeeVee says so!!!

What bothers me about these neo-social-darwinists is that they themselves are
%$@#!@# clueless about biology, and have the attention span of the average
baby-boomer. Their lifespans are all that counts and everything important in
the universe has happened since 1947.

We have had time for _two_ generations in that time span. This isn't enough
time to vaguely select for _anything_ in the population, much less making us
so significantly dumber that the only important breakthoughs in our society
are due to them furriners in our midst...

/RANT

Of course more American kids go into fields other than engineering or the
sciences...but our popular culture has never held those careers in much
esteem. Nerds have NEVER been popular on campus. Not now, not in the 70's, the
60's or the 50's. Look who drove the great breakthroughs in physics and
chemistry in the 30's in American universities. For that matter not in the
1850's. There is a strong anti-intellectual streak that has run throughout
American culture from the beginning. It has waxed and waned but it has always
been there.

But we're only getting dumber NOW???

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:57:07 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: Starport blueprints

Does anybody have the old plans that Judge's Guild (I think it was) put out
of starports are other buildings like that?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:58:44 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #352

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> A delegation of Silicon Valley CEOs recently went to see Clinton to lobby him
> into preventing the imposition of stronger immigration restrictions for exacty
> that reason, they claimed the US was unable to produce the sort of highly
> skilled and knowledgable people they needed.

Walt Smith made some excellent points on this, but I feel compelled to
chime in here. As a card-carrying member of the IEEE this has been a
pretty hot topic of debate in the IEEE Spectrum (the monthly pan-IEEE
magazine).

To set the stage: The IEEE is a worldwide organization for sharing
knowledge amongst electrical & electronic engineers (IEEE == Institute
for Electrical & Electronic Engineers). There are national branches,
which do things like lobbying governments on behalf of the membership
(IEEE:USA, IEEE:Canada, etc).

The IEEE:USA has been lobbying Congress (et al) to keep the number of
H-1 visas (temporary foreign worker visas, usually given to high-tech
workers) capped. Last year, all the H-1 visas (I may have the identifier
wrong) ran out around August I think... essentially, a lot of skilled
people couldn't get into the US from August to December. This was pretty
upsetting to a lot of big companies, who have been lobbying for an
increase in the numebr of H-1s.

Now, it is true that the US (and Canada to a lesser degree) benefits
greatly from the influx of highly intelligent and skilled immigrants
from other countries who come looking for better educational &
employment prospects. HOWEVER: the nature of high-tech employment has
changed pretty drastically over the last decade or two. Look at any
high-tech job ad and you'll see a description that can only be perfectly
fitted to about a few dozen people WORLDWIDE. In the cutthroat world of
American Business(tm), it's cheaper to hire someone who can match the
needed skills without training than finding someone who's smart and a
close match and training them. Thus, with the US's fairly liberal
immigration policies, it's often cheaper to bring someone in to do work
(who has the right skill set) than to retrain someone who you may
already have on staff, or at least close at hand.

I am not anti-immigration, but I do think that relying on a constant
influx of skilled immigrants is less desirable than making some
investments in training and trying to fill personell needs from a local
staffing pool. For example: Ontario is no longer producing enough
doctors to meet its own needs. What happens if doctors stop wanting to
immigrate here? Do I just stop getting medical care?

Anyway, enough off-topic rambling. I don't think anyone is getting "less
smart" (i.e. dumber). I do think that with an increasingly global base
from which companies can select employees, a lot of people who think
getting a good job is "easy" are finding that there's a hell of a lot
more competition than the people in your town.

ObTrav: Anyone think there's a planet that's the Imperial equivalent of
Ireland? Sending generation after generation of their best and brightest
off-world because of problems at home? This would, of course, mjean that
there would be some sort of equivalent to Guiness...

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:59:22 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 06:59 PM 3/25/99 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>To make up for this lack of control surface the
>>rampart will have to use part of it's g capacity for manuvering and even in
>>the pilot is in the center of mass for the rampart he will feel every bit of
>>the acceleration/deceleration Gs.
>
>Bear in mind he has 6G compensation which means he can pull more G's than
>the F22 pilot.
>

And if the fighter is designed at the same tech level so will the fighter.
If fact the fighter will be able to manuver better.  Your happy fun ball has
to use 1 G just to say in the air.  It has to use more of it's Gs to slow
down and turn.  The fighter can use it's wings to turn and manuver while
running it's engines at full output.

>>Also does CG and thruster plates have
>>that fine a control in every direction without reorienting the drives
>>facing?  CG can cancel gravity but that is about it.  Can thrusters thrust
>>in any direction regardless of physical location and orientaion?  What
>>happens when the pilot is in the path of the thrust?
>
>You're forgetting G compensators as well as contragrav and thrusters.
>

No, I have not.  I have also not forgot those systems take up space and
weight that could be used for armor and weapons.

>A contragrav ship floats. It requires no lift. The T-plate can apply
>vectored thrust (SOpM) to some degree. The Rampart does have small wing
>surfaces to help to. Thus that 6G can be used to manuever.
>

The rampart does not have contragrav in it's design.

>>  A Rampart would have to turn to change the
>>direction of it's acceleration just like a F16 as it's thrust is
>>unidirectional like a jets.
>
>No, it hovers, burns the 6G to point at the F22, hits it with a light speed

No contragrav on the rampart so to hover it has to be tail down.  If it
rotated to bring it noe on with a level target it would stall an tumble.
With thos small wings it would have to fall a ways before it's wing load
would let it pull out of the dive.  Durring that dive the thruster could
only be used to speed up the dive.

>weapon (or the ionisation shock). You are making the assumption that a
>space craft with advanced technology will behave the same way as a fighter,
>which is flawed IMO.
>

NO!  I'm saying that the space ship moves worse in an atmosphere.  How can
you say that with all other things being equal that a plane designed for max
performance in the atmosphere and one designed design for both space and
atmospheric flight will be equal in the atmosphere?  If they are or if the
space fighter is better the areo fighter designer was a moron!

First the aero fighter can carry laser just as well as the space fighter.
Something you seem to neglect.  The aero fighter can have better aerodynamic
for combat flight because it does not have to deal with reentry.  The space
fighter will have to carry it's weapons load internally for reentry.  The
aero firghter can use pylon mounts as well as internal mounts.  The space
fighter has to carry heat shielding, life support, radiation shielding and a
host of other thing that it has to have to operate in space that the aero
fighter just does not need.  The weight penalty alone for the duel mode of
operation will be enogh to tip the scales in the aero fighters favor.

Also, the space fighter pilot is not likely to be as good at atmospherice
combat as the aero fighter.

Also the aero fighter can be designed for greater in atmosphere speed than
the space fighter.  High speed in the atmosphere requires special design of
the buffeting and turbulence will tear the craft apart.

>Anyway, a sane person would either (a) kill the F22 at range from space or
>(b) send a Trepida to do the work.
>

And the F22 would shoot back at the space enemy.  It has space capable
weapons or the designer is an idiot.

While we are at at this lets look at some ome the other support the
aerofighter can expect.  How about a Iowa class battle ship with it's 16'
guns replaces with type T mason guns, it's 5' guns replaced with type d
mason guns, and all it AAs replaces with heavy rapid fire lasers.  Say there
are six of these per ocean.  A tigress inters high orbit and get hit by 54
Type Ts and 150 type Ds.  Let add an equal number of arsonel ships and we
can add 600,000 tons of missle bays at a minimum.

As another point, if the rampart is the 'best' design then the planet will
be using them of a knock off AND will have a lot more of them that any space
force can bring with them.  A planet is one huge space station after all.

>> Those turns take time just like for the
>>fighter.  If this is how thrusters work then their only advantage over jets
>>is that the have not physical exhaust.
>
>Thruster operation is only defined in one source at the manuever level, and
>that is the SOpM.
>
>>Next, while a rampart could be going mach 25 in space I dought that it could
>>do so in the atmosphere for more than the few seconds that reentry interface
>>takes to brake it.  The heat caused by air friction at that speed would melt
>>titanium if it were maitained for any real length of time.
>
>Fair point.
>
>>Third, what is to stop the fighter form mounting lasers?
>
>Ahem. Aside from the fact that this example was a F22 against a Rampart? If
>you want to change the frame of the discussion, that's fine. An F22
>couldn't generate enough power for the 250Mw laser.
>

Actually I ment an eqaul tech level fighter as I said.  A 5 tech level
difference would be insurmountable.  Let compare apple to apples.

>> The fighter has a
>>great advantage in lift.  It's engines do not have to produce enough thrust
>>to push it into orbit.
>
>No advantage at all. It needs forward motion to allow air to pass over the
>wing surfaces to generate lift, which is why planes stall.
>

So, what does that matter if it's weapon are a 360 degree threat.

>The Rampart has contragrav which means it doesn't have to spend engine
>thrust pushing into orbit. It *floats* and can rise with high enough CG.
>

The rampart does NOT have CG.  Look at the design in AHL.

>Additionally, a wing based airbreathing engine like that on the F22 isn't
>going to be much use in orbit.
>

Of course not, but the fight will be in the atmosphere.

>>  If it flies, it works, so it can have a much greater
>>'war load.'
>
>Nope. See above.
>

Nope, see above.  Also even if the rampart has CG so could at eqaul tech
level fighter but I dought it would.  The weight penalty would not be wouth
it.  A larger plane carrying armor and a heavy war load would be more cost
effective.  The plane would launch enough small fast missles to overload the
rampart one laser in the one round it would take for them to close with the
target.  On hit in the atmosphere and it's over.

>Have some more missiles if you want but I'll take the Rampart and the laser
>battery.
>

I'll have a laser also, many several.  I can afford to with all that weight
of space use only equipment you are carring.

>
>>Also who says that an aero fighter can not use thruster plates
>>and CG?
>
>No one. That wasn't the context of this discussion though. If you want to
>discuss a TL15 air fighter against a TL15 space fighter, fine.
>

That was what I was discussing, sorry.  I reread the post but as I
understand it it the space fighter verse athmospheric fighter with all other
things being equal.  I have said this several times.

>>A fighter purpose build to fight in a planets atmosphere will
>>defeat a space fighter of the same tech level IN the atmosphere with all
>>other things being equal. It's weapons and sensors will be optomised for the
>>atmosphere.  The space fighters for space.  I find it a bit hard to believe
>>the space sensors have the same range and resolution in the atmosphere.
>
>Why? The active set from a space vessel is going to be way more powerful
>than an air based set.
>


And nearly useless.  Space and atmosphere are two very different
enviroments.  In space you get 1000k temperture changes from light to dark.
In the atmosphere you have wind shear that can pancake a 747.  A sea gull
will total an SR71.  Think about a 3 pound object moving at a relative
velocity greater than a rifle bullet.  One small hole in the ships skin lets
in winds with the power of a tornado.

The aircraft has an active set also.  And is the space set designed to deal
with the goasting caused by an atmosphere?  Is it designed to withstand the
buffeting of fast trastit through an atmosphere.  What about refected power?
Harmonic distotion?  Intermod?  Electrical storms?  And just how is a 40
foot in diameter space sensor dish going to survive 300+ mile per hour
winds?  And what is the wind load going to do to your manuverability?  Have
a looked at the physical size of workable space sensors in Bruces sensor
rules?  I seriosly dout that the space fighter will be able to use the same
set in the atmosphere he used in space.  The IR system will be nearly
usless.  Lidar will go with visibility.  That leaves you with radar the same
as the aero fighter.  And he is trained to use his IN the atmosphere, and
his is design to work IN his atmosphere.

>All things being equal, there may be an advantage to a fighter optimised
>for atmosphere,but it probably won't look like a F22, which needs to
>generate lift to work.
>
>>Forth, AA weapons.  Very mobile CG platforms for LOS AA batteries with VHROF
>>(lasers, PAWs, Meson guns).  Easy to move and hide.  The ramparts would be
>>clay pigeons anywhere in LOS.  See David Drake's 'coliape' (vulcan plazma
>>cannon) AA power gun systems for what such a system could do.  A power gun
>>is just a chemically pumped plasma weapon.
>
>Read COACC if you can get a copy.
>
>PAWs have a problem in atmospheres.
>

Then plazma or mason weapons.

>Taking a planet is going to be hard, I agree, but your argument has
>wandered from why a (TL8) F22 is better than a (TL15) Rampart in an
>atmosphere to why a TL15 Rampart will most likely be destroyed if attacking
>a TL15 world with TL15 designed airspace fighters.
>

That was never my argument.  My basic premise was that a TL15 space craft
would be no match for a TL15 air craft in the atmosphere.  I think that the
first poster had the other premise.  The TL15 space crafts laser would
decide the battle with the TL8 fighter plane provided it has the sensors to
use it in the atmosphere.  If the fighter get off his heat seakers the space
ship is toast.  Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
would take them to arrive. 
 The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
safe from the space ships laser.  Their radar would not be bothered but most
space based sensors could not see through the clouds.  Given the lack
integration shown in the imperial navy they could have a bad time of it
against todays US military.  Almost any of todays units can act as a pointer
for nearly any of our weapon systems.  A infantry man can target for 16'
navy guns, 200mm morters, tomahawks, bombs, howlitzers, tanks, and missles
with the same hand held device.  He can also call in self guided and seaking
weapons.  I find it a little hard to believe the far furture weapons systems
are as pourly integrated as they as portray to be in traveller.

>BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
>than a plane.
>

I dought it.  Drag would kill your speed.  No matter how many Gs you have
you still have to deal with terminal velosity and wind effects.  A sphere
has a terminal velosity around 200-280 mph at one G.  That is the point when
air resistance cancel out acceleration.  The effect is non linear and goes
through some wierd permutations arround the speed of sound.  At those speeds
you are talking some serious design limitations.  One small mistake in your
surface geometry and the wind tears your ship apart.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:21:19 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Which Version?

In a message dated 3/26/99 9:00:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us writes:

<< > remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things: a
 > career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.: that's
 > not an exact quotation, just my memory)
 
 This is going to be such a shock to my girlfriend.  :)
 
  >>

	Balance is the key,  I actually game every other Monday night, which is often
enough to have it seem "regular" but infrequent enoguh that my wife won't hit
me with a wet frying pan.   

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:04:09 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: FF&S 3 additions

Dom types on a weasel powered keyboard:
>Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>Oh, GREAT.  Just freakin' GREAT.
>>We're so ADVANCED on this list.  Maturing at RELATIVISTIC GODDAMN SPEEDS.
>>Having COMPLETELY OUTGROWN the childish squabbles of battleships vs.
>>fighters, we're now tackling the SERIOUS ISSUE of space vs. atmospheric
>>fighters and which one's willy is bigger.  SPIFFY.
>Kenji,
>Which rules set has the willy in? I can't find it in COACC or FFS1/2? What
>stats does it have? And does it have a handwave to make the Physics work?
>Dom

   Willy rules will be in FF&S 3.  The Alternate tech section will have
rules for races with
multiple willies.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:15:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Straphon in his Prive Journal was IRIS

At 10:45 PM 3/25/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Private journals are manufactured by their creators for various reasons
>most often in the political area to provide 'spin' for the writer's
>vision of their reality.

Except that Survival Margin was meant to be a bridge between MT and TNE,
not as a game setting aid.  So the info contained was probably correct.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:48:54 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Zho' Martial Arts Styles (was Gurps Books)

Richard Fields posted:
>
>In TML 335  "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
>Subject: Gurps Books
>
>>        <snip>
>>On another note, has anyone given any thought to developing new
>>martial arts styles for the different Imperial or Zhodani services?  I was
>>thinking about it the other day and thought maybe you could take the basic
>>military training style from Gurps Martial Arts and tweak it for the
>>Marines, the Army, the Scouts and the S3 Scouts.  Any thoughts on what
>>manuvers to put in for each branch or whether it's even necessary to
pursue
>>this at all?

Keep in mind that there is a *big* difference between
a "martial art" and "unarmed combat". A martial art is
limited to certain moves and techniques when used against
an opponent. Practice of a martial art is for perfection
of form.

An unarmed combat methodology is studied to optimize the
use of the human body's assets in order to cripple or
kill, as fast as possible, an enemy who wants to kill you.

Martial arts are derived from unarmed combat but is often
confused with it (thanks to Hollywood). If you make a mistake
with a martial art, you'll likely wind up with a bruise.
You mess up with unarmed combat, odds are you're dead.

Also, keep in mind the Vilani armed forces have for centuries
waged "no holds barred" combat. They are trained to view
an opponent as "the Enemy" who deserves no mercy. This has
been documented in "Vilani and Vargr", I believe. Given
this predilection, any opponent who uses a martial art
rather than unarmed combat against Vilani troops will more
than likely lose.

I'd say the Zho armed forces would be just as merciless as
the Vilani and any open-hand techniques would be just as
deadly. Would they have various martial arts disciplines
for civilians? I'm not sure; after all, such a controlled
and "well-adjusted" society would be very unlikely to allow
or need the development of such practices.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:54:53 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

At 11:43 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 04:49 pm 3/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:50 -0800
>>>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>>>
>>>older and busier with other things in my life (as Les Howie once
>>>remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things:
>a
>>>career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.:
>>that's
>>>not an exact quotation, just my memory), I've tended to try to use
>>more
>>
>>Oh. Well, now I guess that explains why I'm currently unemployed...
>:)
>
>	Hey! I've beem gypped! Somebody owes me either enough time for
>gaming OR a love relationship! Boy, whatta decision ...
>
>	

Try my solution, date a GAMER!  My SO is both a player and a GM.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:57:20 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Apropos of Nothing

For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North Street in
Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from the
supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices were
above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming freshman
gamers at ISU every year...

We had the sign made over 20 years ago...nice to know some things were made
to last.

THis would bring a tear to my eye if I'd let it.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:02:45 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: kinetic kill

\

>Several people have mentioned that you can detect objects with an apparent
>diameter smaller than their sensor resolution.  This is clearly true.
>However, using a star- i.e. a massive all-wavelength EMITTER, is a very bad
>comparison with a small masked target.  After all, the only part of the
>missile that will be seen is the 2m diameter ablative-foam "mushroom" shield
>on the tip.  While hardly very sophisticated, a very-low density foam will
>be a very, very good EMS shield.  At best, the shield will be a few
>fractions of a degree above ambient background radiation.  
People keep saying this, but it's not true. A black foam shield at 1 AU
will rapidly heat up to room temperature from sunlight, easily
detectable by thermal infrared against space. If it's a white
shield, it won't heat up as much but you'll see it by reflected sunlight.
SO you need a black shield and you need to cool it actively,  which means
you need refrigeration, which needs power, which means you need a place
to radiate away waste heat...

>As for the fusion
>plume, which will be VERY visible with any passive sensor array, it is only
>on during the initial run in and last couple of seconds.  The use of
>compressed gas steering jets should be plenty sufficient for course
>corrections.
Compressed-gas steering jets will only suffice if the target isn't maneuvering-
no compressed-gas jet can match the delta-V of a Traveller starship. (Jets
are for a few tens of meters per second.)

>     A note, when I designed this missile, I assumed it wasn't for use
>during pitched battles- basically, it was for use during ambushes and raids.
>Thus a main premise was the ability to gain high velocities unobserved
Not a bad concept, but don't put a fusion rocket on it; fusion rockets are
visible across the entire solar system. And once the fusion rocket goes off
its course becomes predictable - cold jets can't change it enough that
you can't keep tracking where its going to be until it comes into LIDAR
range. If you want to surprise someone,
use T-plates. (Expensive and more limited.)

Such weapons do have roles. As you say, in surprise or against targets with
limited maneuverability. IMTU such weapons are refered to as "Kinetic Lances"
and they occupy a role similar to fireships in the Napoleonic Wars - feared,
but really only useful against targets in harbour or otherwise stationary,
and generally scorned by most combatents.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:16:29 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Career/Love/Gaming

Charles Pravatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Try my solution, date a GAMER!  My SO is both a player and a GM.

Charles L.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
*ENVY!!*

Which is easier - finding a gamer and converting them into an SO, or
converting your SO into a gamer? I'll betcha the latter is touger, but I'll
let you know how it works out.

Walt Smith
Married to a non-gamer, but she has other fine qualities. :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:18:09
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

At 09:57 AM 3/26/99 -0600, you wrote:
>For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North Street in
>Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from the
>supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices were
>above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming freshman
>gamers at ISU every year...

Good planning to have the deli right near-by...

Out of curiosity, which logo was it?  Also, somebody should save the sign!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:23:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Far Trader

Picked up Far Trader last night (along with Fantasy Bestiary and Magic
Items 1.)

At first glance, it looks really good, but that's not why I'm writing this
message.

Jesse, you owe me a new shirt.

I was reclining on my couch, reading the book and sipping a Coke.  Then I
come the illustration on page 49.  That is one familar-looking piece of
land below the climbing free trader...

*splurt*

That's SFO, you %!*$##!!!!

Where did you find the image?
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:28:29 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Future psychology

>Overall, I'm not at all convinced that there's any overall definition for
>'sane' or 'insane' in US law.

Insanity is not a term widely used (in my experience) by psychologists,
except when talking about legal issues. The definitions vary from state to
state (although I think there has been a version in Federal law since 1984).

Here is an excerpt from Arizona law (since this is the only reference I
have immediately available):

13-502: Insanity test; burden of proof; guilty except insane verdict

A. A person may be found guilty except insane if at the time of the
commission of the criminal act the person was afflicted with a mental
disease or defect of such severity that the person did not know the
criminal act was wrong. [...] Mental disease or defect does not include
disorders that result from acute voluntary intoxication or withdrawal from
alcohol or drugs, character defects, psychosexual disorders or impulse
control disorders. Conditions that do not constitute legal insanity include
but are not limited to momentary, temporary conditions arising from the
pressure of the circumstances, moral decadence, depravity or passion
growing out of anger, jealousy, revenge, hatred or other motives in a
person who does not suffer from a mental disease or defect or an
abnormality that is manifested only by criminal conduct. [...]

The full citation can be found at:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/502.htm

A very interesting article on the effects of such laws in general can be
found at:

http://www.law.vill.edu/vls/law-review/Volume_39/lafond1.htm

The section titled "Common Misperceptions About The Insanity Defense" is
especially enlightening.

ObTrav: Would there be a definition insanity in Imperial Law? Given the
possibility of quick high-tech treatments (as opposed to long
institutionalization) would the public-at-large stand for such laws?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #353
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 354



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT: Far Trader Errata
Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #353
Re: Far Trader
Re: Superdense
Merchants
Re: Starport Blueprints
Re: Apropos of Nothing
A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg r...
Far Trader : Pictures and lost friends
RE: Apropos of Nothing
Re: Superdense
Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg r...
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg	r...
RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters
Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg	r...
Re: Brain Drain
RE: Apropos of Nothing
Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg	r...
Freefall
Re: max accel
Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller [Long-esque]
Re: Stepping outside the jump field...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:23:25 -0700
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Errata

> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:17:10 -0600
> From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
> Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Errata
> 
> Interesting to note that my 4 Billion Credit, 10K dTon ship only 
> requires a crew of 38 to keep it up.
> 

That's actually pretty close to the situation in reality. One of the
reasons that ships just keep getting bigger (absent artificial
restrictions, like having to fit through the Panama Canal), is that crew
sizes -- and therefore life support and salaries -- increase much more
slowly than hull sizes. The smallest ocean-going tramp freighters have
around 30 crew; the largest tankers afloat only maybe 200.

Naval vessels are a completely different matter, of course.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:28:14 -0700
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

SJ Games announced today that they will be reprinting GT for release in
June. With any luck (it is certainly Loren Wiseman's intent) this printing
will fix the typos and more obvious faults of the first printing.

Check out: <http://www.sjgames.com/newproducts/>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:33:58 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

Dave Nelson writes:
"As to the second, key, clause:  a dog knows and remembers 
a great deal of information, but it is not aware that it 
posseses certain pieces of knowledge when it is not using it.  
It must be "reminded" of everything by some stimulous before 
it can use its knowledge. Humans, on the other hand, know 
that they know a great dea of information that they are not 
using."

and Brannon writes:
<< 
 And what kind of test could you do to prove that? I'm 
interested to know  how you could empirically test it.
   >>

to which Dave replies:
"You're probably a scientist. Scientists have the 
narrow viewpoint that only the proveable is true, and 
all that is true is proveable."

	On the contrary, we scientists have a viewpoint 
	that is no more narrow than anybody elses (which 
	is to say <gasp> we are human). Furthermore, your 
	description is exactly the opposite of what science 
	is about. I, and every good scientist I know, hold 
	the view that NOTHING is provable (except, perhaps, 
	that I exist). The constant questioning of 'laws' 
	and accepted explanations is science, not the blind 
	acceptance of 'facts' in a text book. We have strong 
	evidence that atoms are made up of protons, neutrons, 
	etc., and we accept this model as practical, workable, 
	and consistent with a large body of observations, but 
	scientists still keep in the back of their minds a 
	measure of doubt: we could be wrong. So, without any
	empirical evidence at all, I can state that dogs are,
	indeed, aware of the information that they possess; 
	but as a scientist I would never assert that we have
	more reason to believe such a statement any more than
	Dave's.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:48:16 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #353

	I agree with you on this point, however, GURPS Martial Arts
describes everything as a Style.  A style in GURPS is basically a collection
of manuevers and skills that are grouped under a Style heading.  It doesn't
really match up to the real world that well maybe, but it simplifies it
somewhat with respect to game play.
	Your observations on the Vilani fighting styles are interesting.  I
think I may spend some time over the next week or so playing around with
developing some different styles for the various Traveller combat groups.

		Alan Hatcher

>Keep in mind that there is a *big* difference between
>a "martial art" and "unarmed combat". A martial art is
>limited to certain moves and techniques when used against
>an opponent. Practice of a martial art is for perfection
>of form.

>An unarmed combat methodology is studied to optimize the
>use of the human body's assets in order to cripple or
>kill, as fast as possible, an enemy who wants to kill you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:50:36 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader

Hee hee hee!  Liked that did you?  :D  I got the image from
Microsnot's....er, Microsoft's Terraserver(tm).  I then cleaned it up a
little bit in Photoshop.  You can go play with it at
www.terraserver.microsoft.com.  It's a satellite imagery database collected
from commercial satellites.  I was actually able to pinpoint my house in
Milpitas with it!  Kinda' cool if you're not a satellite imagery specialist
with the Gov or anything ;)

If I can get the VFG t-shirts printed in time, you've got one!

Best,
Jesse


>Picked up Far Trader last night (along with Fantasy Bestiary and Magic
>Items 1.)
>
>At first glance, it looks really good, but that's not why I'm writing this
>message.
>
>Jesse, you owe me a new shirt.
>
>I was reclining on my couch, reading the book and sipping a Coke.  Then I
>come the illustration on page 49.  That is one familar-looking piece of
>land below the climbing free trader...
>
>*splurt*
>
>That's SFO, you %!*$##!!!!
>
>Where did you find the image?
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
>
>"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
>- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:53:14 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Superdense

Peter Newman writes;
>
> FF&S2 says (pg 63) Superdense "A material whose molecular
> structure has been partially collapsed by intense artificial
> gravity felds, increasing both density & strength".

Could it be a kind of allotropic iron?  (The same as diamonds
and bucky balls are allotropic forms of carbon.)

Intense gravitic compression would force the material to bind
with itself in new forms.

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:45:57 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Merchants

Greetings All:

I don't have SJG's merchant book yet, but in my (slowly reviving) campaign,
I'm leaning towards running the group as merchants.

I've come up with a few thoughts that I'd like to briefly run by you all:

(1) Trader's Guild: Sort of like the "Ace Hardware" answer to Home
Depot/Lowe's. Small merchants band together in order to compete effectively
vs. the Big Boys. I'm not sure how far to push the "bennies", but the thought
was to a clearinghouse for trades/cargo, maybe selling bids on new prospects,
some sort of insurance/health insurance, etc.

(2) Big boy/small boy relationship: A larger firm hires an independent firm
(one or more ships) to help cover smaller routes. Gives them a guarantee on
business for that route. Sort of like the "mail run" relationship that the
Imperium has with some free traders.

And here's one more (less developed):

(3) Would the Imperium (at any level, down to subsector) hire traders to act
as information gathering platforms (not spies, more like news clippers). This
came to me from my thoughts about James Blish's "Cities in Flight" series in
which the "Okies" (flying cities) acted as bumblebees for the galactic
civilization: moving technology and ideas around the galaxy, cross-pollinating
cultures, leading to new technology and ideas.

I'd like to model my free traders after those found in Andre Norton's stories
(both the stories about the Solar Queen as well as others). Anybody have any
thoughts on that (that is where I started to come up with the Trader's Guild
stuff). I'm also wondering about the Thieve's Guild (although I would hate to
inflame the pirates discussion again!).

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:57:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Anthony Merlock" <amerlock@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Blueprints

Try Titan Games http://www.titangames.com

I picked up a copy a few months ago (along with the Starships product)
from their 'Special Sales items' line, for about $5 each (I don't remember
exactly).

I've done a good bit of business with them, and have never been
dissapointed.  The owner can be a bit slow in responding to
email (he gets busy), but I give them two thumbs up for quality and
service.

Tony

> 
> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:57:07 -0500
> From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
> Subject: Starport blueprints
> 
> Does anybody have the old plans that Judge's Guild (I think it was) put out
> of starports are other buildings like that?
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:00:14 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

- -----Original Message-----
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
To: Traveller@mpgn.com <Traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 11:01 AM
Subject: Apropos of Nothing


>For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North Street in
>Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from the
>supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices were
>above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming freshman
>gamers at ISU every year...
>
>We had the sign made over 20 years ago...nice to know some things were made
>to last.
>
>THis would bring a tear to my eye if I'd let it.
>


Is it detachable?  If so, someone needs to go retrieve the thing, and
preserve it for future generations.  I don't live in the Midwest anymore, or
I'd do it myself.

John

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:10:13 -0800
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg r...

Well, not really a Vargr.  She's a geneteched Bowman's wolf.

Worth a look!

http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm


Jeffrey Cornish
"I use Traveller as background material for Albedo Anthropomorphics"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:12:21 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Far Trader : Pictures and lost friends

On page 119 of Far Trader: Where did that ship design come 
from?  I had friend many years ago draw up a ship that looked like it. 
His name was Paul Kok.  By chance, you wouldn't happen to know 
where he is at would you?

ObTrav:  How would one go about finding someone in the Imperium 
when you had no idea where he was at?  What are the odds of 
running into someone you haven't seen in years?  The phrase, "Its a 
small world" would have to take on an entirely different meaning!


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:31:40 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Apropos of Nothing

On Friday, 26 March 1999 11:00, johannes [SMTP:johannes@ix.netcom.com]
wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>

> >For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North Street
> >in
> >Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from the
> >supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices were
> >above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming
> >freshman
> >gamers at ISU every year...
> >
> >We had the sign made over 20 years ago...nice to know some things were
> >made
> >to last.
> >
> >THis would bring a tear to my eye if I'd let it.
> >
> 
> Is it detachable?  If so, someone needs to go retrieve the thing, and
> preserve it for future generations.  I don't live in the Midwest anymore,
> or
> I'd do it myself.
> 
> John


Who actually owns the sign?  I live in St Louis, and would be willing to zip
up their and 'liberate' it.

Who's permission do I need to get?

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:38:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Superdense

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
> 
> Peter Newman writes;
> >
> > FF&S2 says (pg 63) Superdense "A material whose molecular
> > structure has been partially collapsed by intense artificial
> > gravity felds, increasing both density & strength".
> 
> Could it be a kind of allotropic iron?  (The same as diamonds
> and bucky balls are allotropic forms of carbon.)
>

I would class that as crystaliron, which is a TL or two lower than
Superdense.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:49:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg r...

OMIGAWD!!!

ROFLMAOSTCASOMK!!!!!!

AKUS PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS!!!!!

Jeff Cornish wrote:
> 
> Well, not really a Vargr.  She's a geneteched Bowman's wolf.
> 
> Worth a look!
> 
> http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
> 
> Jeffrey Cornish
> "I use Traveller as background material for Albedo Anthropomorphics"

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:56:28 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

Moody, Danny M. wrote:
> 

> >
> > Is it detachable?  If so, someone needs to go retrieve the thing, and
> > preserve it for future generations.  I don't live in the Midwest anymore,
> > or
> > I'd do it myself.
> >
> > John
> 
> Who actually owns the sign?  I live in St Louis, and would be willing to zip
> up their and 'liberate' it.
> 
> Who's permission do I need to get?


Lordy, spoken like a true PC...first thought that pops into head:
"Hmmm...is it nailed down???"

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:01:14 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg	r...

In spite of Florence looking an awful lot like a furry (and I'm one of the
founding members of the Intergalactic Furry Hunters Association) it is a
funny comic :)  I couldn't quite follow your ROFLMAOSTCASOMK
though.....Must,,,get,,,more,,,caffeine,,,,,

Jesse  :)

>OMIGAWD!!!
>
>ROFLMAOSTCASOMK!!!!!!
>
>AKUS PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS!!!!!
>
>Jeff Cornish wrote:
>>
>> Well, not really a Vargr.  She's a geneteched Bowman's wolf.
>>
>> Worth a look!
>>
>> http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
>>
>> Jeffrey Cornish
>> "I use Traveller as background material for Albedo Anthropomorphics"
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:17:28 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Hi-powered weapons for characters

>>	Keep in mind that the FGMP-15 was specifically
>>	designed to be fired without battle dress.
>
>Without BattleDress (IMTU) does not mean in your pajamas.
>You would need at the minimum a great pair of TL15 Mirrorshades... :)

Reminds me of the scene in T2 (the film, not MT :)) where Arnold picks 
up the Minigun.

<HINT>
Now if Jesse could have one of those impulse problems of his...
</HINT>

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:28:17 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg	r...

This is *hilarious*!!!!

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier
varg r...


>OMIGAWD!!!
>
>ROFLMAOSTCASOMK!!!!!!
>
>AKUS PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS!!!!!
>
>Jeff Cornish wrote:
>>
>> Well, not really a Vargr.  She's a geneteched Bowman's wolf.
>>
>> Worth a look!
>>
>> http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
>>
>> Jeffrey Cornish
>> "I use Traveller as background material for Albedo Anthropomorphics"
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:34:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Brain Drain

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Brain Drain (was re: trav Digest...)
...
>ObTrav: Can any low-tech Imperial world prevent a brain drain? All the
...

  Didn't Gordon Dickson write an entire future history that addressed this?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:33:43 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Apropos of Nothing

On Friday, 26 March 1999 11:56, Bruce Johnson
[SMTP:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu] wrote:
> Moody, Danny M. wrote:
> > 
> 
> > >
> > > Is it detachable?  If so, someone needs to go retrieve the thing,
> > > and
> > > preserve it for future generations.  I don't live in the Midwest
> > > anymore,
> > > or
> > > I'd do it myself.
> > >
> > > John
> > 
> > Who actually owns the sign?  I live in St Louis, and would be willing
> > to zip
> > up their and 'liberate' it.
> > 
> > Who's permission do I need to get?
> 
> 
> Lordy, spoken like a true PC...first thought that pops into head:
> "Hmmm...is it nailed down???"

Actually, according to Mr Wiseman, it bolted to the wall.  I am in the
process of getting all the permissions to get the sign, especially the
owners of the building to which it is attached.

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:47:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg	r...

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> In spite of Florence looking an awful lot like a furry (and I'm one of the
> founding members of the Intergalactic Furry Hunters Association) it is a
> funny comic :)  I couldn't quite follow your ROFLMAOSTCASOMK
> though.....Must,,,get,,,more,,,caffeine,,,,,
> 

Well since I just made it up...

Rolling on the floor laughing my a** off scaring the cat and spewing on
my keyboard. (the last is the Jesse DeGraff Honorary ROFL Code Addition)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:43:59 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Freefall

Oh my. The things you find on the internet.

Sam: "We'll need to teach her you're supposed to hide from the police."
Helix: "You can do it. I'm still hurting from when I taught her to fetch."

If this Mark Stanley isn't a Traveller gamer, he somehow picked up many
of the same abberrations.

Sam, Helix and Florence are my current heroes.

LOL!!!

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:00:02 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: max accel

From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel
>ship is toast.  Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
>missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
>would take them to arrive. 

  As Striker (I) is of course the expanded CT combat module, it might be
pointed out that a properly designed TL F gunship would include at least
one PD fire-con, arguably capable of editing 4-16 _dice_ of projectiles
each turn; attached to a laser it will also ignore the targets speed and
air combat agility (IIRC) modifiers. TZZAP!

  Oh, and said gunship will likely be armoured like a grav tank.

> The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
>safe from the space ships laser.  Their radar would not be bothered but most
>space based sensors could not see through the clouds.  Given the lack

  Space-based sensors don't include radar? :|

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:27:46 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Report: First Try at FUDGE Traveller [Long-esque]

>(Eris, since you're the resident FUDGE expert (?) maybe you can tell
>me: Do I have to put the legal stuff from FUDGE on this?  I've done
>so here just to be safe, but maybe I'm being neurotic?)


Stephan has said explicitly on the FUDGE-l list that the disclaimer is not
required for mailing list posts, unless such posts are put into "published"
form (including Web publishing).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:19:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stepping outside the jump field...

In mail you write:

> Bye the way, why dumping annoying things like corpses in jump-space.
> Dump it while conducting gasgiant refueling. I doubt anyone will find
> anything dumped into a gg.

Hell, just dump it during a run to the jump point. The velocities most
ships hit during that run are *way* in excess of system escape
velocity, and the odds of the body passing close to anything that can
intercept it without *lots* of hassles are essentially nil. 

At a measly 100 km/sec it'll pass the 40 AU mark in under two years.
And once it's out that far it's effectively "lost forever".


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #354
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 355



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starport blueprints
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Fenris-class starship by FASA
So There's This Blonde...
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg  r
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Re: Starport blueprints
Re: Neo-Darwinist claptrap
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg	r...
Re: Freefall
Re: KKMs
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #353

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:25:19 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Starport blueprints

>Does anybody have the old plans that Judge's Guild (I think it was) put out
>of starports are other buildings like that?


    If you mean "50 Starports", I have a copy of it.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:50:28 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing


>Moody, Danny M. wrote:
>>
>
>> >
>> > Is it detachable?  If so, someone needs to go retrieve the thing, and
>> > preserve it for future generations.  I don't live in the Midwest
anymore,
>> > or
>> > I'd do it myself.
>> >
>> > John
>>
>> Who actually owns the sign?  I live in St Louis, and would be willing to
zip
>> up their and 'liberate' it.
>>
>> Who's permission do I need to get?
>
>
>Lordy, spoken like a true PC...first thought that pops into head:
>"Hmmm...is it nailed down???"
>


Guilty.  I probably would have thought of this AFTER setting out with a few
friends and a pickup truck, and tried to work out a deal on the fly by cell
phone.  Many of my more memorable (and less reputable) adventures, both
gaming and real life, start out this way.

John

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:44:20 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Fenris-class starship by FASA

Can anyone tell me what the dtonnage of the
Fenris-class starship by FASA is? The deckplans
were released in 1981, I believe.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:47:41 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: So There's This Blonde...

Apologies for the length of this post but I
just died laughing and had to share.


NASA'S GALILEO FINDS 'BOTTLE BLONDE' CHEMICAL ON EUROPA

     Hydrogen peroxide -- the chemical that can turn a brunette into
an instant blonde -- appears on the icy surface of Jupiter's moon
Europa,
according to a new discovery by NASA's Galileo spacecraft reported
in the March 26 edition of the journal Science. 

     "Hydrogen peroxide is a really weird chemical that reacts strongly
with almost everything," said Dr. Robert Carlson, principal investigator
for Galileo's near-infrared mapping spectrometer instrument, the device
that detected the chemical on Europa. Hydrogen peroxide is formed 
constantly on Europa as Jupiter's energetic particles smash apart 
molecules on the surface to produce new chemicals, Carlson said.  This 
process is called radiolysis.

     "We expect to find more bizarre materials on Europa, because it's 
constantly bombarded by Jupiter's intense particle radiation
environment,"
Carlson said.

     Hydrogen peroxide does not appear naturally on Earth's surface,
partly because the surface is not hit by enough radiation to initiate 
the process that creates the chemical.  "On Earth, if we want hydrogen
peroxide, we have to make it in factories," Carlson said. 

     "Almost as soon as hydrogen peroxide is formed, it starts breaking 
down," Carlson explained.  "It's either destroyed by ultraviolet light
or changed by contact with other chemicals, so its life span on Europa
is only a few weeks to months."  The hydrogen peroxide becomes another
reactive chemical called hydroxyl, and can ultimately produce oxygen
and hydrogen gas, said Carlson.

     Because Europa's surface chemicals are constantly being made 
and destroyed, it's hard to study its long-term chemical history, 
Carlson said. "On the other hand, we are interested in watching 
changes in chemical composition over short periods of time.  By 
studying chemical processes on Europa and the other moons of 
Jupiter, we can learn more about how those moons interact with 
Jupiter, and how similar processes occur elsewhere in our solar 
system."

     Galileo's near-infrared mapping spectrometer works like a 
prism, breaking up infrared light that is not visible to the 
naked eye.  Since different chemical molecules absorb infrared 
light differently, scientists can study the light patterns and 
determine what chemicals are present. In this case, the 
instrument was used to study infrared light from Europa's 
surface, and it detected dark areas of hydrogen peroxide.  The 
human eye would not normally see the hydrogen peroxide on Europa, 
because it is dissolved in surface ice and has no color.

     Galileo's instruments had previously detected several other 
chemicals on Europa's surface, including sulfur dioxide, water 
ice, carbon dioxide, and possibly salt molecules containing 
water.  Carlson and other scientists will have another chance to 
study the chemistry of Europa's surface when the Galileo 
spacecraft flies by Europa on November 25. 

     Galileo has been studying Jupiter, its moons and its magnetic
environment for more than three years. Its primary mission ended
in December 1997, but the spacecraft is in the midst of a two-year
extension called Galileo Europa Mission. 

     The Galileo mission is managed by JPL for NASA's Office of 
Space Science, Washington, DC.  JPL is a division of the 
California Institute of Technology. 

     Additional information about the Galileo mission is available 
at: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo.

                             ##### 

(no blonde jokes, please)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:57:29 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

At 11:16 AM 3/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Pravatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Try my solution, date a GAMER!  My SO is both a player and a GM.
>
>Charles L.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>*ENVY!!*
>
>Which is easier - finding a gamer and converting them into an SO, or
>converting your SO into a gamer? I'll betcha the latter is touger, but I'll
>let you know how it works out.
>

Converting the gamer into my SO took me more than 8 YEARS! so do not count
on it.  (We were both involved with other people when we first met.  We were
good friends and gaming companions for a long time before we were both free
and saw to posibilities.)

The competition for the very rare single female gamer is fierce!

If your SO is open minded and the other players in the game put forth some
effort to welcome your SO you should not have to many problems...accept
having to share your game books. (Grin)

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:32:27 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

"Moody, Danny M." wrote:
> 
> On Friday, 26 March 1999 11:56, Bruce Johnson
> [SMTP:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu] wrote:
> > Moody, Danny M. wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Is it detachable?  If so, someone needs to go retrieve the thing,
> > > > and
> > > > preserve it for future generations.  I don't live in the Midwest
> > > > anymore,
> > > > or
> > > > I'd do it myself.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > >
> > > Who actually owns the sign?  I live in St Louis, and would be willing
> > > to zip
> > > up their and 'liberate' it.
> > >
> > > Who's permission do I need to get?
> >
> >
> > Lordy, spoken like a true PC...first thought that pops into head:
> > "Hmmm...is it nailed down???"
> 
> Actually, according to Mr Wiseman, it bolted to the wall.  I am in the
> process of getting all the permissions to get the sign, especially the
> owners of the building to which it is attached.
> 
>  -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
> The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
>  are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
>              ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **

YEP! Definately a PC. 

1)"If it isn't bolted down = it's free."
2)" And if I have the tool to unbolt it = It isn't bolted down (see rule
#1)"

Cardinal rule for all RPGs.


- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:53:35 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg  r

Whew! I made the saving throw to avoid blowing chocolate chip cookie
through my nose.  Thanks for the warnings.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:59:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

Michael Peters wrote:
> 

> YEP! Definately a PC.
> 
> 1)"If it isn't bolted down = it's free."
> 2)" And if I have the tool to unbolt it = It isn't bolted down (see rule
> #1)"
> 
> Cardinal rule for all RPGs.

You only apply that to PC's??? That's an old, old lab rat mantra. ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:06:06 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Starport blueprints

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>

: Does anybody have the old plans that Judge's Guild (I think it was)
put out
: of starports are other buildings like that?

I have several copies in varying conditions listed on the Subsidized
Merchant


==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader

___________hosted_by___________
               www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:11:48 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Neo-Darwinist claptrap

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
: RANT/
:
: What we seem to be having is a hard time distinguishing reality from
cynical
: partisan propaganda. Did you know, in fact, that US student test
scores have
: been steadily increasing, and were not really all that low, that the
crime
: rate has dropped precipitously and that the majority of computer and
systems
: engineers in the US are Americans?
:
: Of course not, that isn't news! What's news is anecdotes about a
high-schooler
: who graduated unable to read, or can't find Africa on a map or random
horrific
: crimes happening to someone, or there are no competent programmers
left in
: America. Yes, Jerry Springer presents an accurate portrayal of average
: Americans, and all our city streets are JUST like what you see on
COPS! We're
: getting dumber, because our TeeVee says so!!!


TV is our god and Jerry Springer is her product.




       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:13:57 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>

: For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North
Street in
: Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from
the
: supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices
were
: above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming
freshman
: gamers at ISU every year...
:
: We had the sign made over 20 years ago...nice to know some things were
made
: to last.
:
: THis would bring a tear to my eye if I'd let it.

Send someone over there with a digital camera so I can put that image on
my "rambling" page!


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:19:09 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
: Which is easier - finding a gamer and converting them into an SO, or
: converting your SO into a gamer? I'll betcha the latter is touger, but
I'll
: let you know how it works out.
:
: Walt Smith
: Married to a non-gamer, but she has other fine qualities. :)

Sounds like a "Formidable Task", either way.

Colin Michael
Married to a non-gamer who has tried everything short of an Exorcist to
discourage me from gaming ;-)


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:28:36 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

NO, actually as a machinist turned engineer I tend to be the dog robber
for my department. That line was added to my office name sign many years
ago. Still get requests to pick locks for people that are locked out.

Mike

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Michael Peters wrote:
> >
> 
> > YEP! Definately a PC.
> >
> > 1)"If it isn't bolted down = it's free."
> > 2)" And if I have the tool to unbolt it = It isn't bolted down (see rule
> > #1)"
> >
> > Cardinal rule for all RPGs.
> 
> You only apply that to PC's??? That's an old, old lab rat mantra. ;-)
> 
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:29:32 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier varg	r...

ROFLMAOSTCASOMK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Cept there's no cat here at the office, but I AM scaring my co-workers!!
:D

Thx!
Jesse


>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>
>> In spite of Florence looking an awful lot like a furry (and I'm one of
the
>> founding members of the Intergalactic Furry Hunters Association) it is a
>> funny comic :)  I couldn't quite follow your ROFLMAOSTCASOMK
>> though.....Must,,,get,,,more,,,caffeine,,,,,
>>
>
>Well since I just made it up...
>
>Rolling on the floor laughing my a** off scaring the cat and spewing on
>my keyboard. (the last is the Jesse DeGraff Honorary ROFL Code Addition)
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:33:40 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Freefall

On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Walter Smith wrote:

>Oh my. The things you find on the internet.
>
>Sam: "We'll need to teach her you're supposed to hide from the police."
>Helix: "You can do it. I'm still hurting from when I taught her to fetch."
>
>If this Mark Stanley isn't a Traveller gamer, he somehow picked up many
>of the same abberrations.
>
>Sam, Helix and Florence are my current heroes.

It's a really good cartoon. Wonder if SJG would buy it for Pyramid?

>LOL!!!
>
>Walt Smith


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:33:02 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: KKMs

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: Kinetic Kill Missile Guidance
>

<good stuff snipped all over the place>

>A few points of order:
>
>Several people have mentioned that you can detect objects with an apparent
>diameter smaller than their sensor resolution.  This is clearly true.
>However, using a star- i.e. a massive all-wavelength EMITTER, is a very bad
>comparison with a small masked target.  After all, the only part of the
>missile that will be seen is the 2m diameter ablative-foam "mushroom" shield
>on the tip.  While hardly very sophisticated, a very-low density foam will
>be a very, very good EMS shield.  At best, the shield will be a few
>fractions of a degree above ambient background radiation.  As for the fusion
>plume, which will be VERY visible with any passive sensor array, it is only
>on during the initial run in and last couple of seconds.

Once you see that sort of fusion plume, something will go active - probably
not the main ship, but at least something will head towards it emitting.

This may be one of the few good uses for fighters.

The point has also been made about the fusion drive inevitably heating up
the rest of the missile, presenting you with a bunch of IR to get rid of.

I can happily assume side radiators though, which will bleed this off at
the normal ?2000 K? of FFS2 radiators, in a direction well away from the
target.

>  The use of
>compressed gas steering jets should be plenty sufficient for course
>corrections.

Not if the target starts maneuvering at 2 gees.

>     A note, when I designed this missile, I assumed it wasn't for use
>during pitched battles- basically, it was for use during ambushes and raids.
>Thus a main premise was the ability to gain high velocities unobserved, then
>use the energy generated for a "sneak" attack that is only obvious at the
>very last second. 


>  That's the reason
>for no active sensors.  Basically, passive sensors would be unlikely to
>detect it until such close range that reaction was impossible due to the
>short time till impact.

Design a missile and do some numbers under Bruce's Definitive Sensor Rules.
See how fast it goes, what it costs, and what the signature is.

One thing I think you will find is you can be stealthy or cheap, but not both.

>
>As for stopping, once again, the "guidance" is command control, which means
>that the control unit can be safely placed in the back, shielded by the bulk
>of the missile.  Note:  This is a good reason for escorts.  While,
>theoretically, a PDL could simply keep firing until the KKM is vaporized, in
>reality, the missile depends first, on coming in undetected, and second,
>using its mass to absorb the (relatively) low-powered PDL blasts.

I dont know about anyone else, but a Famile Spofulam 'Signature' class
point defense laser is 250 megajoules. And thats the low-powered civilian
version.

'Dash' kinetic-kill missiles also have their uses in a counter-missile
role, as do nuke missiles.

Command control from long distances will also give you light-lag issues to
the tune of (target->guidance unit)^2. This will make terminal guidance
difficult, unless you want to be in weapons range of the target.

>
>Finally, I never though this would be a torpedo in space- it is simply too
>easy for an enemy aware of it to stop it.  OTOH, it certainly is a
>channelizing weapon- even a Tigress captain will think twice about getting
>hit by one.   I don't want to re-start the near-C rock wars, but one method
>I thought of was to have a carrier ship boost normal missiles to high
>relative velocities for attacks on predicatable targets- frontier refueling,
>anyone?

Sounds like an excellent reason not to do frontier refuelling without a
high guard with active sensors on.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:19:55 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #353

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:57:07 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: Starport blueprints

Does anybody have the old plans that Judge's Guild (I think it was) put out
of starports are other buildings like that?

- ------------------------------
You might like to try Titan Games or the Dragon's Trove. I haven't got their
URLs handy at the moment.

I remember, when I was a child, being taken to the celebrated Barnum's
Circus, which contained an exhibition of freaks and monstrosities. But the
exhibit on the programme that I most desired to see was the one described as
"The Boneless Wonder". My parents judged that the spectacle would be too
revolting and too demoralizing for my youthful eyes, and I waited fifty
years to see the Boneless Wonder sitting on the Treasury Bench.

Winston Churchill, 1933


- -----Original Message-----
From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
[mailto:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com]
Sent:	Saturday, 27 March 1999 2:29
To:	traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM
Subject:	Traveller-digest V1999 #353


Traveller-digest       Friday, March 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 353



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Neo-Darwinist claptrap
Starport blueprints
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #352
Re: max accel
Re: Which Version?
FF&S 3 additions
Re: Straphon in his Prive Journal was IRIS
Re: Zho' Martial Arts Styles (was Gurps Books)
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Apropos of Nothing
kinetic kill
Career/Love/Gaming
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Far Trader
Re: Future psychology

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:42:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Neo-Darwinist claptrap

Frank Pitt wrote:
>

> >As to Frank Pitt's suggestion that intelligence is being bred out of
> >modern Western society, how do you account for the breakthroughs in
> >genetics and world wide communciations, which happened primarily in the
> >West?
>
> Simple, most of them have been made by _in_ the West but by Chinese,
Indian,
> Russian, etc, researchers.

Ah Bullsh*t...this is all neo-Darwinian claptrap. The _reason_ that there
are
so many foreign graduate students in the US is that the US graduate schools
are considered superior.

> I have no idea, whether it's at all true, but what I do know is that US
and
> other Western countries are increasingly importing high tech and
scientific
> personnel from "third world" locations because they can't find the skills,
> knowledge and ability locally.

Again, bullsh*t! They are doing so because foreign labor is _cheaper_ pure
and
simple. A foreign employee automatically has the hammer of the INS over them
to keep 'em in line.

All of those Silicon Valley execs pissing and moaning about how they have a
talent shortage is just posturing.

They have a _cheap, young_ talent shortage.

Silicon Valley, in many ways, is worse than Hollywood...if you're over 30,
you're washed up, though in this case it's not because you might look old,
but
because you no longer have the desire to work 80-90 hour weeks for $40k plus
stock options in a company that has never made a dime. You want to be
treated
like a human, and have a life of your own. If you're 40 and not an executive
in your own company and a paper millionare? Fuggedaboutit! go way, we don't
want you! Doncha' know, anyone over 35 is worthless can't learn a thing,
don't
know the hot paradigm of the moment.

RANT/

What we seem to be having is a hard time distinguishing reality from cynical
partisan propaganda. Did you know, in fact, that US student test scores have
been steadily increasing, and were not really all that low, that the crime
rate has dropped precipitously and that the majority of computer and systems
engineers in the US are Americans?

Of course not, that isn't news! What's news is anecdotes about a
high-schooler
who graduated unable to read, or can't find Africa on a map or random
horrific
crimes happening to someone, or there are no competent programmers left in
America. Yes, Jerry Springer presents an accurate portrayal of average
Americans, and all our city streets are JUST like what you see on COPS!
We're
getting dumber, because our TeeVee says so!!!

What bothers me about these neo-social-darwinists is that they themselves
are
%$@#!@# clueless about biology, and have the attention span of the average
baby-boomer. Their lifespans are all that counts and everything important in
the universe has happened since 1947.

We have had time for _two_ generations in that time span. This isn't enough
time to vaguely select for _anything_ in the population, much less making us
so significantly dumber that the only important breakthoughs in our society
are due to them furriners in our midst...

/RANT

Of course more American kids go into fields other than engineering or the
sciences...but our popular culture has never held those careers in much
esteem. Nerds have NEVER been popular on campus. Not now, not in the 70's,
the
60's or the 50's. Look who drove the great breakthroughs in physics and
chemistry in the 30's in American universities. For that matter not in the
1850's. There is a strong anti-intellectual streak that has run throughout
American culture from the beginning. It has waxed and waned but it has
always
been there.

But we're only getting dumber NOW???

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:57:07 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: Starport blueprints

Does anybody have the old plans that Judge's Guild (I think it was) put out
of starports are other buildings like that?

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:58:44 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #352

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> A delegation of Silicon Valley CEOs recently went to see Clinton to lobby
him
> into preventing the imposition of stronger immigration restrictions for
exacty
> that reason, they claimed the US was unable to produce the sort of highly
> skilled and knowledgable people they needed.

Walt Smith made some excellent points on this, but I feel compelled to
chime in here. As a card-carrying member of the IEEE this has been a
pretty hot topic of debate in the IEEE Spectrum (the monthly pan-IEEE
magazine).

To set the stage: The IEEE is a worldwide organization for sharing
knowledge amongst electrical & electronic engineers (IEEE == Institute
for Electrical & Electronic Engineers). There are national branches,
which do things like lobbying governments on behalf of the membership
(IEEE:USA, IEEE:Canada, etc).

The IEEE:USA has been lobbying Congress (et al) to keep the number of
H-1 visas (temporary foreign worker visas, usually given to high-tech
workers) capped. Last year, all the H-1 visas (I may have the identifier
wrong) ran out around August I think... essentially, a lot of skilled
people couldn't get into the US from August to December. This was pretty
upsetting to a lot of big companies, who have been lobbying for an
increase in the numebr of H-1s.

Now, it is true that the US (and Canada to a lesser degree) benefits
greatly from the influx of highly intelligent and skilled immigrants
from other countries who come looking for better educational &
employment prospects. HOWEVER: the nature of high-tech employment has
changed pretty drastically over the last decade or two. Look at any
high-tech job ad and you'll see a description that can only be perfectly
fitted to about a few dozen people WORLDWIDE. In the cutthroat world of
American Business(tm), it's cheaper to hire someone who can match the
needed skills without training than finding someone who's smart and a
close match and training them. Thus, with the US's fairly liberal
immigration policies, it's often cheaper to bring someone in to do work
(who has the right skill set) than to retrain someone who you may
already have on staff, or at least close at hand.

I am not anti-immigration, but I do think that relying on a constant
influx of skilled immigrants is less desirable than making some
investments in training and trying to fill personell needs from a local
staffing pool. For example: Ontario is no longer producing enough
doctors to meet its own needs. What happens if doctors stop wanting to
immigrate here? Do I just stop getting medical care?

Anyway, enough off-topic rambling. I don't think anyone is getting "less
smart" (i.e. dumber). I do think that with an increasingly global base
from which companies can select employees, a lot of people who think
getting a good job is "easy" are finding that there's a hell of a lot
more competition than the people in your town.

ObTrav: Anyone think there's a planet that's the Imperial equivalent of
Ireland? Sending generation after generation of their best and brightest
off-world because of problems at home? This would, of course, mjean that
there would be some sort of equivalent to Guiness...

Ethan
- - --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:59:22 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 06:59 PM 3/25/99 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>To make up for this lack of control surface the
>>rampart will have to use part of it's g capacity for manuvering and even
in
>>the pilot is in the center of mass for the rampart he will feel every bit
of
>>the acceleration/deceleration Gs.
>
>Bear in mind he has 6G compensation which means he can pull more G's than
>the F22 pilot.
>

And if the fighter is designed at the same tech level so will the fighter.
If fact the fighter will be able to manuver better.  Your happy fun ball has
to use 1 G just to say in the air.  It has to use more of it's Gs to slow
down and turn.  The fighter can use it's wings to turn and manuver while
running it's engines at full output.

>>Also does CG and thruster plates have
>>that fine a control in every direction without reorienting the drives
>>facing?  CG can cancel gravity but that is about it.  Can thrusters thrust
>>in any direction regardless of physical location and orientaion?  What
>>happens when the pilot is in the path of the thrust?
>
>You're forgetting G compensators as well as contragrav and thrusters.
>

No, I have not.  I have also not forgot those systems take up space and
weight that could be used for armor and weapons.

>A contragrav ship floats. It requires no lift. The T-plate can apply
>vectored thrust (SOpM) to some degree. The Rampart does have small wing
>surfaces to help to. Thus that 6G can be used to manuever.
>

The rampart does not have contragrav in it's design.

>>  A Rampart would have to turn to change the
>>direction of it's acceleration just like a F16 as it's thrust is
>>unidirectional like a jets.
>
>No, it hovers, burns the 6G to point at the F22, hits it with a light speed

No contragrav on the rampart so to hover it has to be tail down.  If it
rotated to bring it noe on with a level target it would stall an tumble.
With thos small wings it would have to fall a ways before it's wing load
would let it pull out of the dive.  Durring that dive the thruster could
only be used to speed up the dive.

>weapon (or the ionisation shock). You are making the assumption that a
>space craft with advanced technology will behave the same way as a fighter,
>which is flawed IMO.
>

NO!  I'm saying that the space ship moves worse in an atmosphere.  How can
you say that with all other things being equal that a plane designed for max
performance in the atmosphere and one designed design for both space and
atmospheric flight will be equal in the atmosphere?  If they are or if the
space fighter is better the areo fighter designer was a moron!

First the aero fighter can carry laser just as well as the space fighter.
Something you seem to neglect.  The aero fighter can have better aerodynamic
for combat flight because it does not have to deal with reentry.  The space
fighter will have to carry it's weapons load internally for reentry.  The
aero firghter can use pylon mounts as well as internal mounts.  The space
fighter has to carry heat shielding, life support, radiation shielding and a
host of other thing that it has to have to operate in space that the aero
fighter just does not need.  The weight penalty alone for the duel mode of
operation will be enogh to tip the scales in the aero fighters favor.

Also, the space fighter pilot is not likely to be as good at atmospherice
combat as the aero fighter.

Also the aero fighter can be designed for greater in atmosphere speed than
the space fighter.  High speed in the atmosphere requires special design of
the buffeting and turbulence will tear the craft apart.

>Anyway, a sane person would either (a) kill the F22 at range from space or
>(b) send a Trepida to do the work.
>

And the F22 would shoot back at the space enemy.  It has space capable
weapons or the designer is an idiot.

While we are at at this lets look at some ome the other support the
aerofighter can expect.  How about a Iowa class battle ship with it's 16'
guns replaces with type T mason guns, it's 5' guns replaced with type d
mason guns, and all it AAs replaces with heavy rapid fire lasers.  Say there
are six of these per ocean.  A tigress inters high orbit and get hit by 54
Type Ts and 150 type Ds.  Let add an equal number of arsonel ships and we
can add 600,000 tons of missle bays at a minimum.

As another point, if the rampart is the 'best' design then the planet will
be using them of a knock off AND will have a lot more of them that any space
force can bring with them.  A planet is one huge space station after all.

>> Those turns take time just like for the
>>fighter.  If this is how thrusters work then their only advantage over
jets
>>is that the have not physical exhaust.
>
>Thruster operation is only defined in one source at the manuever level, and
>that is the SOpM.
>
>>Next, while a rampart could be going mach 25 in space I dought that it
could
>>do so in the atmosphere for more than the few seconds that reentry
interface
>>takes to brake it.  The heat caused by air friction at that speed would
melt
>>titanium if it were maitained for any real length of time.
>
>Fair point.
>
>>Third, what is to stop the fighter form mounting lasers?
>
>Ahem. Aside from the fact that this example was a F22 against a Rampart? If
>you want to change the frame of the discussion, that's fine. An F22
>couldn't generate enough power for the 250Mw laser.
>

Actually I ment an eqaul tech level fighter as I said.  A 5 tech level
difference would be insurmountable.  Let compare apple to apples.

>> The fighter has a
>>great advantage in lift.  It's engines do not have to produce enough
thrust
>>to push it into orbit.
>
>No advantage at all. It needs forward motion to allow air to pass over the
>wing surfaces to generate lift, which is why planes stall.
>

So, what does that matter if it's weapon are a 360 degree threat.

>The Rampart has contragrav which means it doesn't have to spend engine
>thrust pushing into orbit. It *floats* and can rise with high enough CG.
>

The rampart does NOT have CG.  Look at the design in AHL.

>Additionally, a wing based airbreathing engine like that on the F22 isn't
>going to be much use in orbit.
>

Of course not, but the fight will be in the atmosphere.

>>  If it flies, it works, so it can have a much greater
>>'war load.'
>
>Nope. See above.
>

Nope, see above.  Also even if the rampart has CG so could at eqaul tech
level fighter but I dought it would.  The weight penalty would not be wouth
it.  A larger plane carrying armor and a heavy war load would be more cost
effective.  The plane would launch enough small fast missles to overload the
rampart one laser in the one round it would take for them to close with the
target.  On hit in the atmosphere and it's over.

>Have some more missiles if you want but I'll take the Rampart and the laser
>battery.
>

I'll have a laser also, many several.  I can afford to with all that weight
of space use only equipment you are carring.

>
>>Also who says that an aero fighter can not use thruster plates
>>and CG?
>
>No one. That wasn't the context of this discussion though. If you want to
>discuss a TL15 air fighter against a TL15 space fighter, fine.
>

That was what I was discussing, sorry.  I reread the post but as I
understand it it the space fighter verse athmospheric fighter with all other
things being equal.  I have said this several times.

>>A fighter purpose build to fight in a planets atmosphere will
>>defeat a space fighter of the same tech level IN the atmosphere with all
>>other things being equal. It's weapons and sensors will be optomised for
the
>>atmosphere.  The space fighters for space.  I find it a bit hard to
believe
>>the space sensors have the same range and resolution in the atmosphere.
>
>Why? The active set from a space vessel is going to be way more powerful
>than an air based set.
>


And nearly useless.  Space and atmosphere are two very different
enviroments.  In space you get 1000k temperture changes from light to dark.
In the atmosphere you have wind shear that can pancake a 747.  A sea gull
will total an SR71.  Think about a 3 pound object moving at a relative
velocity greater than a rifle bullet.  One small hole in the ships skin lets
in winds with the power of a tornado.

The aircraft has an active set also.  And is the space set designed to deal
with the goasting caused by an atmosphere?  Is it designed to withstand the
buffeting of fast trastit through an atmosphere.  What about refected power?
Harmonic distotion?  Intermod?  Electrical storms?  And just how is a 40
foot in diameter space sensor dish going to survive 300+ mile per hour
winds?  And what is the wind load going to do to your manuverability?  Have
a looked at the physical size of workable space sensors in Bruces sensor
rules?  I seriosly dout that the space fighter will be able to use the same
set in the atmosphere he used in space.  The IR system will be nearly
usless.  Lidar will go with visibility.  That leaves you with radar the same
as the aero fighter.  And he is trained to use his IN the atmosphere, and
his is design to work IN his atmosphere.

>All things being equal, there may be an advantage to a fighter optimised
>for atmosphere,but it probably won't look like a F22, which needs to
>generate lift to work.
>
>>Forth, AA weapons.  Very mobile CG platforms for LOS AA batteries with
VHROF
>>(lasers, PAWs, Meson guns).  Easy to move and hide.  The ramparts would be
>>clay pigeons anywhere in LOS.  See David Drake's 'coliape' (vulcan plazma
>>cannon) AA power gun systems for what such a system could do.  A power gun
>>is just a chemically pumped plasma weapon.
>
>Read COACC if you can get a copy.
>
>PAWs have a problem in atmospheres.
>

Then plazma or mason weapons.

>Taking a planet is going to be hard, I agree, but your argument has
>wandered from why a (TL8) F22 is better than a (TL15) Rampart in an
>atmosphere to why a TL15 Rampart will most likely be destroyed if attacking
>a TL15 world with TL15 designed airspace fighters.
>

That was never my argument.  My basic premise was that a TL15 space craft
would be no match for a TL15 air craft in the atmosphere.  I think that the
first poster had the other premise.  The TL15 space crafts laser would
decide the battle with the TL8 fighter plane provided it has the sensors to
use it in the atmosphere.  If the fighter get off his heat seakers the space
ship is toast.  Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
would take them to arrive.
 The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
safe from the space ships laser.  Their radar would not be bothered but most
space based sensors could not see through the clouds.  Given the lack
integration shown in the imperial navy they could have a bad time of it
against todays US military.  Almost any of todays units can act as a pointer
for nearly any of our weapon systems.  A infantry man can target for 16'
navy guns, 200mm morters, tomahawks, bombs, howlitzers, tanks, and missles
with the same hand held device.  He can also call in self guided and seaking
weapons.  I find it a little hard to believe the far furture weapons systems
are as pourly integrated as they as portray to be in traveller.

>BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
>than a plane.
>

I dought it.  Drag would kill your speed.  No matter how many Gs you have
you still have to deal with terminal velosity and wind effects.  A sphere
has a terminal velosity around 200-280 mph at one G.  That is the point when
air resistance cancel out acceleration.  The effect is non linear and goes
through some wierd permutations arround the speed of sound.  At those speeds
you are talking some serious design limitations.  One small mistake in your
surface geometry and the wind tears your ship apart.

Charles L.

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:21:19 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Which Version?

In a message dated 3/26/99 9:00:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us writes:

<< > remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things: a
 > career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.: that's
 > not an exact quotation, just my memory)

 This is going to be such a shock to my girlfriend.  :)

  >>

	Balance is the key,  I actually game every other Monday night, which is
often
enough to have it seem "regular" but infrequent enoguh that my wife won't
hit
me with a wet frying pan.

		Dave Nelson

- ------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:04:09 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: FF&S 3 additions

Dom types on a weasel powered keyboard:
>Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>Oh, GREAT.  Just freakin' GREAT.
>>We're so ADVANCED on this list.  Maturing at RELATIVISTIC GODDAMN SPEEDS.
>>Having COMPLETELY OUTGROWN the childish squabbles of battleships vs.
>>fighters, we're now tackling the SERIOUS ISSUE of space vs. atmospheric
>>fighters and which one's willy is bigger.  SPIFFY.
>Kenji,
>Which rules set has the willy in? I can't find it in COACC or FFS1/2? What
>stats does it have? And does it have a handwave to make the Physics work?
>Dom

   Willy rules will be in FF&S 3.  The Alternate tech section will have
rules for races with
multiple willies.



- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:15:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Straphon in his Prive Journal was IRIS

At 10:45 PM 3/25/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Private journals are manufactured by their creators for various reasons
>most often in the political area to provide 'spin' for the writer's
>vision of their reality.

Except that Survival Margin was meant to be a bridge between MT and TNE,
not as a game setting aid.  So the info contained was probably correct.
- - --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:48:54 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Zho' Martial Arts Styles (was Gurps Books)

Richard Fields posted:
>
>In TML 335  "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
>Subject: Gurps Books
>
>>        <snip>
>>On another note, has anyone given any thought to developing new
>>martial arts styles for the different Imperial or Zhodani services?  I was
>>thinking about it the other day and thought maybe you could take the basic
>>military training style from Gurps Martial Arts and tweak it for the
>>Marines, the Army, the Scouts and the S3 Scouts.  Any thoughts on what
>>manuvers to put in for each branch or whether it's even necessary to
pursue
>>this at all?

Keep in mind that there is a *big* difference between
a "martial art" and "unarmed combat". A martial art is
limited to certain moves and techniques when used against
an opponent. Practice of a martial art is for perfection
of form.

An unarmed combat methodology is studied to optimize the
use of the human body's assets in order to cripple or
kill, as fast as possible, an enemy who wants to kill you.

Martial arts are derived from unarmed combat but is often
confused with it (thanks to Hollywood). If you make a mistake
with a martial art, you'll likely wind up with a bruise.
You mess up with unarmed combat, odds are you're dead.

Also, keep in mind the Vilani armed forces have for centuries
waged "no holds barred" combat. They are trained to view
an opponent as "the Enemy" who deserves no mercy. This has
been documented in "Vilani and Vargr", I believe. Given
this predilection, any opponent who uses a martial art
rather than unarmed combat against Vilani troops will more
than likely lose.

I'd say the Zho armed forces would be just as merciless as
the Vilani and any open-hand techniques would be just as
deadly. Would they have various martial arts disciplines
for civilians? I'm not sure; after all, such a controlled
and "well-adjusted" society would be very unlikely to allow
or need the development of such practices.

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:54:53 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

At 11:43 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 04:49 pm 3/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:50 -0800
>>>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>>>
>>>older and busier with other things in my life (as Les Howie once
>>>remarked, "In life, you can have two of the following three things:
>a
>>>career, a love relationship, and enough time for gaming"; N.B.:
>>that's
>>>not an exact quotation, just my memory), I've tended to try to use
>>more
>>
>>Oh. Well, now I guess that explains why I'm currently unemployed...
>:)
>
>	Hey! I've beem gypped! Somebody owes me either enough time for
>gaming OR a love relationship! Boy, whatta decision ...
>
>

Try my solution, date a GAMER!  My SO is both a player and a GM.

Charles L.

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:57:20 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Apropos of Nothing

For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North Street in
Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from the
supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices were
above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming freshman
gamers at ISU every year...

We had the sign made over 20 years ago...nice to know some things were made
to last.

THis would bring a tear to my eye if I'd let it.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:02:45 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: kinetic kill

\

>Several people have mentioned that you can detect objects with an apparent
>diameter smaller than their sensor resolution.  This is clearly true.
>However, using a star- i.e. a massive all-wavelength EMITTER, is a very bad
>comparison with a small masked target.  After all, the only part of the
>missile that will be seen is the 2m diameter ablative-foam "mushroom"
shield
>on the tip.  While hardly very sophisticated, a very-low density foam will
>be a very, very good EMS shield.  At best, the shield will be a few
>fractions of a degree above ambient background radiation.
People keep saying this, but it's not true. A black foam shield at 1 AU
will rapidly heat up to room temperature from sunlight, easily
detectable by thermal infrared against space. If it's a white
shield, it won't heat up as much but you'll see it by reflected sunlight.
SO you need a black shield and you need to cool it actively,  which means
you need refrigeration, which needs power, which means you need a place
to radiate away waste heat...

>As for the fusion
>plume, which will be VERY visible with any passive sensor array, it is only
>on during the initial run in and last couple of seconds.  The use of
>compressed gas steering jets should be plenty sufficient for course
>corrections.
Compressed-gas steering jets will only suffice if the target isn't
maneuvering-
no compressed-gas jet can match the delta-V of a Traveller starship. (Jets
are for a few tens of meters per second.)

>     A note, when I designed this missile, I assumed it wasn't for use
>during pitched battles- basically, it was for use during ambushes and
raids.
>Thus a main premise was the ability to gain high velocities unobserved
Not a bad concept, but don't put a fusion rocket on it; fusion rockets are
visible across the entire solar system. And once the fusion rocket goes off
its course becomes predictable - cold jets can't change it enough that
you can't keep tracking where its going to be until it comes into LIDAR
range. If you want to surprise someone,
use T-plates. (Expensive and more limited.)

Such weapons do have roles. As you say, in surprise or against targets with
limited maneuverability. IMTU such weapons are refered to as "Kinetic
Lances"
and they occupy a role similar to fireships in the Napoleonic Wars - feared,
but really only useful against targets in harbour or otherwise stationary,
and generally scorned by most combatents.

Bruce

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:16:29 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Career/Love/Gaming

Charles Pravatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Try my solution, date a GAMER!  My SO is both a player and a GM.

Charles L.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
*ENVY!!*

Which is easier - finding a gamer and converting them into an SO, or
converting your SO into a gamer? I'll betcha the latter is touger, but I'll
let you know how it works out.

Walt Smith
Married to a non-gamer, but she has other fine qualities. :)

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:18:09
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

At 09:57 AM 3/26/99 -0600, you wrote:
>For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North Street in
>Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from the
>supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices were
>above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming freshman
>gamers at ISU every year...

Good planning to have the deli right near-by...

Out of curiosity, which logo was it?  Also, somebody should save the sign!
- - --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:23:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Far Trader

Picked up Far Trader last night (along with Fantasy Bestiary and Magic
Items 1.)

At first glance, it looks really good, but that's not why I'm writing this
message.

Jesse, you owe me a new shirt.

I was reclining on my couch, reading the book and sipping a Coke.  Then I
come the illustration on page 49.  That is one familar-looking piece of
land below the climbing free trader...

*splurt*

That's SFO, you %!*$##!!!!

Where did you find the image?
- - --

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:28:29 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Future psychology

>Overall, I'm not at all convinced that there's any overall definition for
>'sane' or 'insane' in US law.

Insanity is not a term widely used (in my experience) by psychologists,
except when talking about legal issues. The definitions vary from state to
state (although I think there has been a version in Federal law since 1984).

Here is an excerpt from Arizona law (since this is the only reference I
have immediately available):

13-502: Insanity test; burden of proof; guilty except insane verdict

A. A person may be found guilty except insane if at the time of the
commission of the criminal act the person was afflicted with a mental
disease or defect of such severity that the person did not know the
criminal act was wrong. [...] Mental disease or defect does not include
disorders that result from acute voluntary intoxication or withdrawal from
alcohol or drugs, character defects, psychosexual disorders or impulse
control disorders. Conditions that do not constitute legal insanity include
but are not limited to momentary, temporary conditions arising from the
pressure of the circumstances, moral decadence, depravity or passion
growing out of anger, jealousy, revenge, hatred or other motives in a
person who does not suffer from a mental disease or defect or an
abnormality that is manifested only by criminal conduct. [...]

The full citation can be found at:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/502.htm

A very interesting article on the effects of such laws in general can be
found at:

http://www.law.vill.edu/vls/law-review/Volume_39/lafond1.htm

The section titled "Common Misperceptions About The Insanity Defense" is
especially enlightening.

ObTrav: Would there be a definition insanity in Imperial Law? Given the
possibility of quick high-tech treatments (as opposed to long
institutionalization) would the public-at-large stand for such laws?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

- ------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #353
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 356



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Re: max accel
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: GT: Far Trader Errata
Re: Far Trader and Cokes
Re: max accel
Re: Far Trader
Re: Far Trader
Re: Far Trader and Cokes
Re: Starport blueprints
Re: Fenris-class starship by FASA
Re: High-Powered Weapons for Characters
Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
OT: 3d Graphics package
Re: Far Trader
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
26 Mar 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Multi-GM Pocket Empires game ?
Re: Merchants
Re: Atmospheric Fighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:08:21 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Would it work if it was a love/hate relationship??? Since that term logically
>canels out...

Err. If love is positive (say 1) and hate is negative (0) then it would
tend to infinity....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:35:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles wrote:

>>Taking a planet is going to be hard, I agree, but your argument has
>>wandered from why a (TL8) F22 is better than a (TL15) Rampart in an
>>atmosphere to why a TL15 Rampart will most likely be destroyed if attacking
>>a TL15 world with TL15 designed airspace fighters.

>That was never my argument.  My basic premise was that a TL15 space craft
>would be no match for a TL15 air craft in the atmosphere.  I think that the
>first poster had the other premise.  >


The Original Post by Bloo....

>>How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
>>pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
>>and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.

On which everyone else was commenting and you posted a response. I
erroneously assumed you were commenting on the same scenario (indeed,
re-reading your post I still would assume that). But being corrected, I
have just deleted the 20 min worth of response I'd been crafting. <sigh>

>The TL15 space crafts laser would
>decide the battle with the TL8 fighter plane provided it has the sensors to
>use it in the atmosphere.  If the fighter get off his heat seakers the space
>ship is toast.  Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
>missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
>would take them to arrive.

Not actually true as the 40G superdense, space meteorite resistance armour
on a Rampart will shrug off the damage. Bear in mind the laser on the
Rampart can hit from thousands of kilometres.

> The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
>safe from the space ships laser.  Their radar would not be bothered but most
>space based sensors could not see through the clouds.

The space fighter sits high in near orbit and hits the fighter from over
the horizon...

> Given the lack
>integration shown in the imperial navy they could have a bad time of it
>against todays US military.  Almost any of todays units can act as a pointer
>for nearly any of our weapon systems.  A infantry man can target for 16'
>navy guns, 200mm morters, tomahawks, bombs, howlitzers, tanks, and missles
>with the same hand held device.  He can also call in self guided and seaking
>weapons.  I find it a little hard to believe the far furture weapons systems
>are as pourly integrated as they as portray to be in traveller.

I agree, and on that basis your argument that the US military would be
credible against a high TL force amuses me.

>>BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
>>than a plane.
>I dought it.  Drag would kill your speed.  No matter how many Gs you have
>you still have to deal with terminal velosity and wind effects.  A sphere
>has a terminal velosity around 200-280 mph at one G.  That is the point when
>air resistance cancel out acceleration.  The effect is non linear and goes
>through some wierd permutations arround the speed of sound.  At those speeds
>you are talking some serious design limitations.  One small mistake in your
>surface geometry and the wind tears your ship apart.

Generally I accept this argument, but remember that the Traveller armours
are much much better than those on current air and land vehicles.

Dom (sad that he deleted the bit which had the Imperial forces destroying
the eco system of the enemy world and blockading it until the civilisation
is dead).

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:42:01 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: max accel
>

>
>No, I have not.  I have also not forgot those systems take up space and
>weight that could be used for armor and weapons.

Well, armour is one of the weak points of an airframe design - the extra
surface area will increase the demand for area to be armoured.

Now, you could play games with (say) a general 1cm hull, and a thicker
'citadel' along the central fuselage that holds the pilot, weapons, power
plant etc, but it could be ugly to have a penetrating laser hit on your
wing at high speed.

>Also the aero fighter can be designed for greater in atmosphere speed than
>the space fighter.  High speed in the atmosphere requires special design of
>the buffeting and turbulence will tear the craft apart.

The problem is high accuracy speed-of-light weapons (lasers, PAWs, Meson
Guns) make atmospheric speeds irrelevant.

They see you. Weapon fires. It hits.

Given this, the only things that saves you are armour, and not being seen.

Thus, the either 'Happy Fun Ball' or the 'Be vewwwy qwiet we're hunting
wabbits' <1> design concepts.

The distances just arent long enough for speed-of-light lag to make agility
important.

>That was what I was discussing, sorry.  I reread the post but as I
>understand it it the space fighter verse athmospheric fighter with all other
>things being equal.  I have said this several times.

My feeling is they'll both be Happy Fun Balls, but post up some optimised
airframe designs for us to kick the tyres of.

>And nearly useless.  Space and atmosphere are two very different
>enviroments.  In space you get 1000k temperture changes from light to dark.
>In the atmosphere you have wind shear that can pancake a 747.  A sea gull
>will total an SR71.  Think about a 3 pound object moving at a relative
>velocity greater than a rifle bullet.  One small hole in the ships skin lets
>in winds with the power of a tornado.

To me, this says armour up and slow down.

Thus, the Happy Fun Ball, or the grav tank.

>>>Forth, AA weapons.  Very mobile CG platforms for LOS AA batteries with
VHROF
>>>(lasers, PAWs, Meson guns).  Easy to move and hide.  The ramparts would be
>>>clay pigeons anywhere in LOS. 

Well, you get any two out of high output, high ROF and easy to hide.

The other point to think of is these highly armed CG platforms are
competing in the same air-superiority ecological niche as atmospheric
fighters, except with the different strategy of maximising firepower rather
than speed (they are at the other corner of the good old
speed-protection-firepower triangle)

>>Read COACC if you can get a copy.
>>
>>PAWs have a problem in atmospheres.
>>
>
>Then plazma or mason weapons.
>

Well, C-PAWs have big problems in atmospheres. N-PAWs get their problems in
space.

A quick look at the range function for Fusion/Plasma weapons in FFS2
indicates they probably arent going to be able to get their maximum range
out to line-of-sight.

Meson guns ? Yeah. The weapon of choice for planetary defense everywhere.

The other thing to stick in the back of your mind is Gravitic and Neutrino
Sensors. Many of Ditzie's projects are based on the assumption that use of
fusion, fusion+ and contragravity can be detected outside line of sight
ranges.

>Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
>missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
>would take them to arrive. 

Ahhhh, the good old 'one shot per twenty minutes' assumption.

See Striker's rules for point defense, or some more modern design sequence.

> The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
>safe from the space ships laser. 

And their NPAW/Meson Gun, targetted on that nice active AEMS signal ?

> I find it a little hard to believe the far furture weapons systems
>are as pourly integrated as they as portray to be in traveller.

Ummm, see the Ortillery rules in Striker. Or in fact the Indirect Fire
rules in Striker. Hell, see any desription of 'Forward Observer' skill,
which Imperial Marines get in every generation of Traveller I can think of.

>>BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
>>than a plane.
>>
>
>I dought it.  Drag would kill your speed. 

With lasers, atmospheric speed is irrelevant.

Ian Whitchurch

<1> A grav tank optimised for NOE.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:59:47 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader Errata

> > Interesting to note that my 4 Billion Credit, 10K dTon ship only 
> > requires a crew of 38 to keep it up.
> > 
> 
> That's actually pretty close to the situation in reality. One of the
> reasons that ships just keep getting bigger (absent artificial
> restrictions, like having to fit through the Panama Canal), is that crew
> sizes -- and therefore life support and salaries -- increase much more
> slowly than hull sizes. The smallest ocean-going tramp freighters have
> around 30 crew; the largest tankers afloat only maybe 200.
> 
> Naval vessels are a completely different matter, of course.

Oh, I ain't griping, mind you.  I followed the playtest.  I thought it was 
fairly thorough.  I may not have contributed, but I was there!

The only place I do have concerns is what to do with my 55 
Maneuver Drive crewmembers during a week in jump space!  That 
ship has a got a crew of 190.  What I do is divide the total number 
of crew by 3.  Then divide the number of maintenance Man Days by 
3.  That's how many people are either Preventive Maintaining or On 
Watch during any 3 hour shift.  It works. 

BTW ... I guess I should say, Good Job!  I do like the book.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:16:02 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader and Cokes

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> Picked up Far Trader last night (along with Fantasy Bestiary and Magic
> Items 1.)
> 
> At first glance, it looks really good, but that's not why I'm writing this
> message.
> 
> Jesse, you owe me a new shirt.
> 
> I was reclining on my couch, reading the book and sipping a Coke.  Then I
> come the illustration on page 49.  That is one familar-looking piece of
> land below the climbing free trader...
> 
> *splurt*
> 
> That's SFO, you %!*$##!!!!
> 
Tres cool!

> Where did you find the image?

Who cares about the shirt?  You didn't damage the _book_, did you?

Looks as if we need to add "keyboard warning" labels to _anything_ to
which Jesse has any connection....  ;-)

> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
> 
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:31:16 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:

[snip]

Go Charles!  I love this fight. Even though I understand less than I thought.

> While we are at at this lets look at some ome the other support the
> aerofighter can expect.  How about a Iowa class battle ship with it's 16'
> guns replaces with type T mason guns, it's 5' guns replaced with type d
> mason guns, and all it AAs replaces with heavy rapid fire lasers.

Now that is an elegantly violent idea.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:34:31 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Hee hee hee!  Liked that did you?  :D  I got the image from
> Microsnot's....er, Microsoft's Terraserver(tm).  I then cleaned it up a
> little bit in Photoshop.  You can go play with it at
> www.terraserver.microsoft.com.  It's a satellite imagery database collected
> from commercial satellites.  I was actually able to pinpoint my house in
> Milpitas with it!  Kinda' cool if you're not a satellite imagery specialist
> with the Gov or anything ;)

CRAP!  I was in San Jose for a week during the Game Developer's Conference.
Didn't know you guys where there.  And I missed Steve Jackson's lecture,
since my booth was too busy to leave.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:34:44 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader

Double-crap.  I'd wanted to go to that conf, but only found out about it
last minute and couldn't spare the time due to the "First In" deadline.
Bummer :(

Jesse

>CRAP!  I was in San Jose for a week during the Game Developer's Conference.
>Didn't know you guys where there.  And I missed Steve Jackson's lecture,
>since my booth was too busy to leave.
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:38:54 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader and Cokes

I try :)
Jesse


>Looks as if we need to add "keyboard warning" labels to _anything_ to
>which Jesse has any connection....  ;-)
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:56:05 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Starport blueprints

Its called 50 Starports
and I have a copy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:49:54 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Fenris-class starship by FASA

>Can anyone tell me what the dtonnage of the
>Fenris-class starship by FASA is? The deckplans
>were released in 1981, I believe.

IPSMV Fenris

Tonnage :3000
Length: 78m          Jump   2
Width  27m            Manuever 4
Height: 15m           Plant   4
Fuel 1284 tons         144 tons for Valkyries
Turrets  : 6 regular, 12 retractable
Missiles : 8 launchers, 70 stored
Crew  : 62                  Computer   m/7
Staterooms  :  62       Low Berths 43
8 Valkyrie fighters

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:02:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: High-Powered Weapons for Characters

Regarding the FGMP-15 (and PGMP-14?) and it's ability to be fired without
battledress, I always pictured it as having a kind of "faring" (sp?) which
was made of light-weight transparent materials and which darkened by
polarization when the weapon was fired.  This protects the shooter (though
he's still gonna get washed over with pretty hot air), but those around
him may be subject to blinding, singeing, etc.  The inertial compensation
and grav lifters take care of the kick-back and extra weight of the
faring.  Essentially you get a plasma gun that looks like a cross between
an old Howitzer (with that flat armor plate thingy, y'know?) and the front
of a racing bike.  Cool, eh?

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:23:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

Hi all.  

My GF just recently tried gaming for the first time, and she quite enjoyed
herself!  We're definately not talking about a person you would normally
see around a gaming table here, so I'm pretty happy with the result. I'm
hoping this good first impression will be the start of something.

Based on this experience, here is my advice for introducing a woman to
gaming (all IMHO): 

1. Use a dirt-simple system.  (like...oh...let me seee...FUDGE? :-)  This
way she won't get to thinking that gaming is a boring sequence of looking
up things in tables and so on.  Also, she won't be made to feel like a
dummy, which can happen to both genders when they first start out with a
complex system.  This is probably good advice for any first-timer, in
other words. 

2. Have other women there if possible.  The modelling effect is a very
strong determinant of attitudes regarding proper gender role behaviours
(he said like a true psych student).  In other words, if she sees other
women there, she'll be more likely to realize that gaming is a "normal" 
and "good" thing for women to do.  This couteracts the unfortunate popular
view that gaming is only for men, and even then is a questionnable
pass-time. 

3. Keep the violence level down.  This depends on the lady in question, of
course (for some the opposite advice would be the way to go! :-), but in
general women are not into massive gore-fests and kinetic ballets of hot
lead.  Emphasize roleplaying, problem-solving and intrigue. 

4. Use a group of 4 to 5 players.  This is large enough that she'll get to
experience the social aspect of gaming (which may be the most appealing
part to her) and small enough that she won't get washed away by more
agressive players.

Damn, I keep rewriting this, and stills sounds kinda patronizing!  That is
not my intent, of course, I just want to help people get more women into
our fine passtime.  Apologies for any offence.  

So, does anyone have anything to add to this advice?  Any other similar
experiences to report?

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:28:50 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: OT: 3d Graphics package

I'm posting this since there was some discussion a while back about 3d
graphics package. While looking at Comp.Software.Announce I saw an
advert for a free 3d CAD lite program. From the rendering on their site
it seems to be a reasonabley powerful program. Just d'led it so I don't
have a first hand opinion yet. Thought some of the others out there
might be interested. The homepage for the program is...

http://www.softcad.com

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:54:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader

At 08:50 AM 3/26/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Hee hee hee!  Liked that did you?  :D  I got the image from
>Microsnot's....er, Microsoft's Terraserver(tm). 

Terraserver is a whole pile of fun.. pinpointed my apartment, my job, etc.

But back to Far Trader.  Just below the port scoops, you'll se a short
white section over the long black section that runs up from the lower right
hand corner.  That's Milpitas Avenue crossing US 101.  Just above and to
the left is a rectangular area.  That's the holding lot for shuttle vans.
Look *real* close, and you'll see me waving.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:01:48 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
: So, does anyone have anything to add to this advice?  Any other
similar
: experiences to report?


The Point of Origin article on Downport.com this past week was by a
female gamer, telling how she got involved.
http://www.downport.com/point/index.html

Sort of validates what has been said.



       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:18:48 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: 26 Mar 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource has posted its most recent update to
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.html.  With
this update, Netscape users should no longer see the problem of
the left-side stripe encroaching on the body text (it's a bug in
Netscape that we had to redesign around - email us for details).
Also, the FAQ has been updated to reflect recent SJGames releases
for GURPS Traveller, a new ship from 101 Starships has been
posted, and 101 Starships itself has been updated to Second
Edition (and that second edition is available for download). A
new Traveller program for the Apple II series is available in the
Computer Connection, and another Lost Diary has been found.

Although our Feedback and Ask Freelance Traveller pages are still
not working, your questions, comments, and ideas are always
welcome at Freelance Traveller.  Please write to
freetrav@hotmail.com with any and all of them.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us,
making our existence possible.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:08:05 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Multi-GM Pocket Empires game ?

I've been thinking about PE.

One problem with it is that a good PE game takes a lot of work to GM.

What do people think about the idea of co-ordinating a game with a team of
GMs, each of them in charge of a group of worlds ... I dont have the coding
ability to do it, but I think it should be possible to have a web interface
that sends splits up orders and send it to the appropriate GM in charge of
each world.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:18:46 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Merchants

>From: Diespamer@aol.com
>Subject: Merchants
>
>Greetings All:
>
>I don't have SJG's merchant book yet, but in my (slowly reviving) campaign,
>I'm leaning towards running the group as merchants.
>
>I've come up with a few thoughts that I'd like to briefly run by you all:
>
>(1) Trader's Guild: Sort of like the "Ace Hardware" answer to Home
>Depot/Lowe's. Small merchants band together in order to compete effectively
>vs. the Big Boys. I'm not sure how far to push the "bennies", but the thought
>was to a clearinghouse for trades/cargo, maybe selling bids on new prospects,
>some sort of insurance/health insurance, etc.

Easily possible. Remember, trade is about relationships. TAS may serve this
functiona s well.

>
>(2) Big boy/small boy relationship: A larger firm hires an independent firm
>(one or more ships) to help cover smaller routes. Gives them a guarantee on
>business for that route. Sort of like the "mail run" relationship that the
>Imperium has with some free traders.

Definitly.

>
>And here's one more (less developed):
>
>(3) Would the Imperium (at any level, down to subsector) hire traders to act
>as information gathering platforms (not spies, more like news clippers). This
>came to me from my thoughts about James Blish's "Cities in Flight" series in
>which the "Okies" (flying cities) acted as bumblebees for the galactic
>civilization: moving technology and ideas around the galaxy,
cross-pollinating
>cultures, leading to new technology and ideas.

Yes. Perhaps this could work informally - your local Subsector Admiral may
have an unofficial list of 'auxilaries' (perhaps with ex-Navy people on
board) that they provide cut-rate or free maintainence and access to
mil-surplus gear, in exchange for them being available for 'special
missions', moving stuff the Navy needs moved (but cant justify using one of
their ships for) and acting as auxilaries in wartime.

>
>I'd like to model my free traders after those found in Andre Norton's stories
>(both the stories about the Solar Queen as well as others). Anybody have any
>thoughts on that (that is where I started to come up with the Trader's Guild
>stuff). I'm also wondering about the Thieve's Guild (although I would hate to
>inflame the pirates discussion again!).

Well, the Andre Norton novels seem to have a different model of
interstellar government to the Imperium.

I'd advise you to buy G:T Far Trader, even if you dont use Gurps. It looks
like a great product for your campaign.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:35:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

On 26 Mar, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:

> >From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>

> >Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
> >missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than
> >one turn it would take them to arrive. 

> Ahhhh, the good old 'one shot per twenty minutes' assumption.

> See Striker's rules for point defense, or some more modern design
> sequence.

No, just stick to CT.

If the rampart's laser gets one fire action per twenty minute CT turn,
then your F15 ... "carries the equivalent of one turret"
(to paraphrase High Guard)
So all its missiles combined only equal one factor 2 missile turret.

If you figure firepower of the defences according to the CT abstract
defence factor system and the attack in a TNE style missile by missile
system, you should not be surprised if the results are incompatible.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #356
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 27 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 357



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Guns for Characters
Re: Brown Bess vs BD
Re: Guns for Characters
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Neo-Darwinist claptrap
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Re: max accel
igNoble Etiquette.
DS
Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: max accel
FUDGEing Traverller, part 2:  Combat, Wounds and Injuries (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:15:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Guns for Characters

In mail you write:

> This is exactly one of the things that I've done in the past.  What, all you
> players are Barney Badasses with Combat Armor, Battledress, High Energy
> weapons, and other very large caliber weapons?  Oh, I'm sorry, you just ran
> into a High Threat squad of Imperial Marines useing experimental batteldress
> that is twice as good as yours, they all have FGMP's at a minimum ;) and
> they really wanna' eat your lunch.  Very funny seeing players faces when you
> show them a picture of a Landmate style battledress (Masamune Shirow's
> Appleseed manga) armed with vehicle class RPY's etc.  VB*WEG*

If you are going to drag manga into it, there's a much simpler method.
Just let them know that the IWWW's *best* pair of troubleshooters has
been sent after them. Their name? Their source isn't sure, but seems to
recall something about "Angels". :-)

If Kei & Yuri don't scare your players, *nothing* will. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:54:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Brown Bess vs BD

In mail you write:

> Now if the entire BD is bullet resistant to an ACR (which they're not)
> then a Brown Bess or a Berdan's couldn't really mess up a Imperial
> Troopers day. But I wonder, how the Imeprial Army (or Marines) would
> allow guerillas to get that close with the tech lead in sensors,
> counter-fire, and intelligence. Perhaps a sharpshooter would nail one
> trooper or even two, but the anti-sniper response would be devestating.
> With doppler, micromillimeter radars, ladar, ballistic compututers the
> size of matchbooks,etc for sensors, PGMP, FGMP, smart mortars, or just
> plain tunsten rods from orbit for retaliation would make such an attack
> untenable. Guerillas might not give a damn, but good shots are scarce.

Which is why you borrow a page or two from the "how to be a guerrilla"
comics the Chinese used to print. 

You honeycomb the village and other areas with tunnels. One of the
favorites was a sniper position built into the typical "brick stove".
You shoot the trooper who was checking out the hut, and scramble down
the tunnels.

And even low tech geurillas will get the idea that they are being
detected due to the presence of XXX. And once they do, you'll get
*lots* of false alarms. And they'll find ways to nail you *without*
using XXX.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:47:02 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Guns for Characters

Too true :)
Jesse

>> This is exactly one of the things that I've done in the past.  What, all
you
>> players are Barney Badasses with Combat Armor, Battledress, High Energy
>> weapons, and other very large caliber weapons?  Oh, I'm sorry, you just
ran
>> into a High Threat squad of Imperial Marines useing experimental
batteldress
>> that is twice as good as yours, they all have FGMP's at a minimum ;) and
>> they really wanna' eat your lunch.  Very funny seeing players faces when
you
>> show them a picture of a Landmate style battledress (Masamune Shirow's
>> Appleseed manga) armed with vehicle class RPY's etc.  VB*WEG*
>
>If you are going to drag manga into it, there's a much simpler method.
>Just let them know that the IWWW's *best* pair of troubleshooters has
>been sent after them. Their name? Their source isn't sure, but seems to
>recall something about "Angels". :-)
>
>If Kei & Yuri don't scare your players, *nothing* will.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:05:35 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

	If anyone hasn't seen the article by Jeff Freeman at RPG.NET titled "Chicks
in Gaming"  have a look,  it's a hoot.

	http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/acksep97.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:08:41 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Neo-Darwinist claptrap

In a message dated 3/26/99 6:44:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< Of course more American kids go into fields other than engineering or the
 sciences...but our popular culture has never held those careers in much
 esteem. Nerds have NEVER been popular on campus. Not now, not in the 70's,
the
 60's or the 50's. Look who drove the great breakthroughs in physics and
 chemistry in the 30's in American universities. For that matter not in the
 1850's. There is a strong anti-intellectual streak that has run throughout
 American culture from the beginning. It has waxed and waned but it has always
 been there.
 
 But we're only getting dumber NOW???
  >>

OUTSTANDING POST!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am also tired of them...

Ob trav: my previous speculation on popular culture and generational wars in
the 3I...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:13:18 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

In a message dated 3/26/99 8:01:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, lkw@io.com
writes:

<< For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North Street in
 Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from the
 supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices were
 above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming freshman
 gamers at ISU every year...
 
 We had the sign made over 20 years ago...nice to know some things were made
 to last.
 
 THis would bring a tear to my eye if I'd let it. >>

Why doesn't someone grab it for Marc or Loren before it disappears? (assuming
it's legal to do so...)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:51:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

On 26 Mar, steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

> Charles Prevatte wrote:

> [snip]

> Go Charles!  I love this fight. Even though I understand less than I
> thought.

> > While we are at at this lets look at some ome the other support the
> > aerofighter can expect.  How about a Iowa class battle ship with
> > it's 16'
> > guns replaces with type T mason guns, it's 5' guns replaced with type d
> > mason guns, and all it AAs replaces with heavy rapid fire lasers.

> Now that is an elegantly violent idea.

No, it's an example of mixing up two incompatable rule systems and
getting totally confused.

A factor T meson gun is a High Guard spinal mount. That means you
are using High Guard rules, so your Iowa class gets only one of them.
It also means that you cannot put factor anything mesons in the 5"
turrets, because it is not allowed.

Note that the factor T is 7,000std (100,000m3). Adding a 1200 EP power
plant and fuel gives 9,400std or about 130,000m3.
I'm not convinced this fits inside an Iowa, and you still need the crew,
some armour, factor 9 meson screen, nuclear dampers, a 9 Fib computer
and agility 6 or the Tigress will toast the Iowa.

If you use one of the later rule systems (which would allow multiple
meson guns) the Factor T equivalent is closer to 300,000m3 (I kept the
power input constant at 30,240MW and assumed 250m long and ROF100)
This has a "barrel" diameter of over 18m.
(T4 rules, yet it is still only T4/CUSP factor 16)

I think that you'll agree that you cannot put even one of these in an
Iowa, never mind 3 in each turret.

On the other hand, if the factor T meson, is supposed to be a factor
27 weapon in T4, then you end up with a tunnel so big you could put
several Iowas into it, so I don't think that conversion would be correct.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:27:21 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: igNoble Etiquette.

Rules of igNoble Etiquette:

1.  Say exactly what you think when you think it.  Claim the right to do so
as freedom of speech.  Treat it as a mark of boldness to express yourself
using whatever earthy language seems appropriate.

2. Assume that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, and anyone who
takes offense at your remarks is a sissy.  Express your contempt for such
weakness.  Respond to obvious folly with all the ridicule it deserves.

3. Defend your character against all attacks, direct and indirect.  Your
friends never criticize, nor does anyone who truly means well.  Put those
who condescend or preach to you in their place.

4. Complain vigorously when responses to your inquiries are less than
satisfactory or polite.  Object to being singled out for persecution.
Attack those who take offense at trifles.  Point out the hypocrisy of those
who complain about you.

5. NEVER apologize. It's a sign of weakness. 

Ob Traveller:  What are the rules of "Noble" behavior? How is a noble
expected to behave toward his peers, superiors, and social inferiors,
especially if any of these act like barbarians? 

 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:27:07 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: DS

Frank Pitt wrote:

>These are, BTW, not questions that apply only to Traveller, but
<which apply right now in the real world.

>Many people consider Down Syndrome such a disorder, and there is
>some research suggesting that a true genetic "cure" could be
>produced.

>But at the same time it has been shown that when the stigma of
>being "retarded" is removed and people with DS are treated
>normally and their special dietary and other requirements are
>catered for , they are quite capable of living a productive
>healthy life, and even competing succesfully against so-called
>"normal" people in intellectual pursuits.

>The big question here is whether _anyone_  has the right to
>"cure" something that is a natural occurence, and produces
>unique individuals who do not "suffer".

   I think this is an overgeneralization.  I could mention a host
of physical ailments that people with DS are prone to suffering,
but I won't. "Normal" treatment and catering to their special
requirements won't always accelerate their physical and mental
development to match that of people without DS.  There are
greater and lesser degrees of "Retardation". Actually, if you can
focus on its meaning of "delayed" or "slowed" and ignore the
stigma that ignorance and prejudice attach to it, it's a
reasonably accurate description.
    As for the value of intelligence, I'd rather have a DS child
who is the polar opposite (in both intelligence and disposition)
of the other DS lately popular on the list...but then, since I
already do, I could be biased.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:22:50 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

In a message dated 3/26/99 8:35:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, thrash@io.com
writes:

<< SJ Games announced today that they will be reprinting GT for release in
 June. With any luck (it is certainly Loren Wiseman's intent) this printing
 will fix the typos and more obvious faults of the first printing.
  >>

BTW; I worked the SJG's booth at GAMA this week. I also saw all the new
goodies. Got my Far Trader and a Hardcover GT. Saw the new Illuminati-
NICE...ditto for the Cardboard Heros...It was a fun experience. I met LOTS of
gaming industry greats I only knew by reputation. BTW; we were next to WOTC's
booth, and they were a really nice bunch of gals and guys; I'm re-evaluating
my opinion of the company (I listened to all the anti WOTC rants on line, and
am now wondering if they're true...). BTW; next year's show will also be at
the New Orleans Hotel/Casino in Las Vegas. Unfortunately this is a business
con. You've got to be a Manufacturer, Distributor or Retailer to get in. There
is also no gaming; it's all business...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:35:55 -0800
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

My wife wasn't too interested in role-playing games. In fact, she grew up
being tought that "DnD" was evil. She didn't stop me from playing...
Usually, she would just got out with some of her friends while I had "the
guys" over to play. One night, she had stayed home and she listened in (from
across the room). That night, she started talking about what she would have
done different if she were playing... I told her, well why don't you play
the next time. She agreed. Turns out she really likes it! It took a couple
of games for "the guys" to accept her... but once they gave her a chance,
everything went great!

I would have to agree with the simpler rules systems. (For any player, that
is) Their's so much to learn.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

>Hi all.
>
>My GF just recently tried gaming for the first time, and she quite enjoyed
>herself!  We're definately not talking about a person you would normally
>see around a gaming table here, so I'm pretty happy with the result. I'm
>hoping this good first impression will be the start of something.
>
>Based on this experience, here is my advice for introducing a woman to
>gaming (all IMHO):
>
>So, does anyone have anything to add to this advice?  Any other similar
>experiences to report?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:06:37 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

> And if the fighter is designed at the same tech level so will the fighter.
> If fact the fighter will be able to manuver better.  Your happy fun ball has
> to use 1 G just to say in the air.  It has to use more of it's Gs to slow

Not, it doesn't.  It's called Contra Grav.

> down and turn.  The fighter can use it's wings to turn and manuver while
> running it's engines at full output.

The fighter *has to*.  The grav vehicle doesn't.

> >You're forgetting G compensators as well as contragrav and thrusters.
> 
> No, I have not.  I have also not forgot those systems take up space and
> weight that could be used for armor and weapons.

Try designing a space fighter and atmosphere fighter (Striker or FFS) and say
that again.  The atmosphere fighter is going to lose alot more space due to
its airframing.

> >weapon (or the ionisation shock). You are making the assumption that a
> >space craft with advanced technology will behave the same way as a fighter,
> >which is flawed IMO.
> >
> 
> NO!  I'm saying that the space ship moves worse in an atmosphere.  How can

It's called "airframe" which means the space ship *is* a plane.  Contra grav
tech means canonically that airfraft and grav vehicles merge at TL13 (COACC).

> you say that with all other things being equal that a plane designed for max
> performance in the atmosphere and one designed design for both space and
> atmospheric flight will be equal in the atmosphere?  If they are or if the
> space fighter is better the areo fighter designer was a moron!

Let's play the design game.  I'll do the space fighter.  You do the
aerofighter.  :-)

> Also, the space fighter pilot is not likely to be as good at atmospherice
> combat as the aero fighter.

Quite debatable.  Especially if this innovative concept of "airframe" is used
on the space fighter.

> Also the aero fighter can be designed for greater in atmosphere speed than
> the space fighter.  High speed in the atmosphere requires special design of
> the buffeting and turbulence will tear the craft apart.

One word.  "Airframe."  :-)

> >>Third, what is to stop the fighter form mounting lasers?
> >
> >Ahem. Aside from the fact that this example was a F22 against a Rampart? If
> >you want to change the frame of the discussion, that's fine. An F22
> >couldn't generate enough power for the 250Mw laser.
> >
> 
> Actually I ment an eqaul tech level fighter as I said.  A 5 tech level
> difference would be insurmountable.  Let compare apple to apples.

So design your apple.  The discussion was about an F22 against a Rampart.
We're having the new discussion now, it seems.  :-)

> >No advantage at all. It needs forward motion to allow air to pass over the
> >wing surfaces to generate lift, which is why planes stall.
> >
> 
> So, what does that matter if it's weapon are a 360 degree threat.

Err...  we have an LOS lightspeed weapon.  Don't *have* to face you and can
hit you a helluva way off.  Manuever inside atmospheric against such weapons
is unlikely to be able to evade a laser.  Reference the archived kkm
discussions.

> >Additionally, a wing based airbreathing engine like that on the F22 isn't
> >going to be much use in orbit.
> > 
> >  
> Of course not, but the fight will be in the atmosphere.

Not in the premise of the original discussion.  It was claimed that Traveller
space ships didn't have have high enough G endurance.  The combat situation
was in space.  Then it lowered into an atmosphere where grav vehicles still
have an advantage.  No stall, the ability to make all the aerodynamic
maneuvers, loads more armor and heavy weapons.  An order of magnitude more
distructive.  Being a space and atmosphere fighter.  Imagine that.

> Nope, see above.  Also even if the rampart has CG so could at eqaul tech
> level fighter but I dought it would.  The weight penalty would not be wouth
> it.  A larger plane carrying armor and a heavy war load would be more cost
> effective.  The plane would launch enough small fast missles to overload the
> rampart one laser in the one round it would take for them to close with the
> target.  On hit in the atmosphere and it's over.

Who says?  That's ludicrous.  You do actually play the game right?  First
design your atmosphere fighter.  Then run a combat and tell us the results.
I've seen a few grav tank vs space military ships vs civilian space ships
(trader class ships).

> >Have some more missiles if you want but I'll take the Rampart and the laser
> >battery.
> >
> 
> I'll have a laser also, many several.  I can afford to with all that weight
> of space use only equipment you are carring.

You're going to have a design an atmosphere fighter with "many several" lasers
and the performance you're hinting at.  I'd really like to see it and will
consider that claim to be apocryphal until I do.

>Why? The active set from a space vessel is going to be way more powerful
>than an air based set.
>
> And nearly useless.  Space and atmosphere are two very different
> enviroments.  In space you get 1000k temperture changes from light to dark.
> In the atmosphere you have wind shear that can pancake a 747.  A sea gull
> will total an SR71.  Think about a 3 pound object moving at a relative
> velocity greater than a rifle bullet.  One small hole in the ships skin lets
> in winds with the power of a tornado.

When you design an *airframed* space fighter and put in atmospheric flight
avionics (especially terrain following), you're taking all of that into
account. 

> The aircraft has an active set also.  And is the space set designed to deal
> with the goasting caused by an atmosphere?  Is it designed to withstand the
> buffeting of fast trastit through an atmosphere.  What about refected power?
> Harmonic distotion?  Intermod?  Electrical storms?  And just how is a 40
> foot in diameter space sensor dish going to survive 300+ mile per hour
> winds?  And what is the wind load going to do to your manuverability?  Have
> a looked at the physical size of workable space sensors in Bruces sensor
> rules?  I seriosly dout that the space fighter will be able to use the same
> set in the atmosphere he used in space.  The IR system will be nearly
> usless.  Lidar will go with visibility.  That leaves you with radar the same
> as the aero fighter.  And he is trained to use his IN the atmosphere, and
> his is design to work IN his atmosphere.

AEMS is everything that radar is and alot more.  Everything from longwave
radio to gamma rays, and everything in between.  Far more advanced than
anything in any plane today (though an awacs type job might have the advantage
of dedicated equipment, though even that could probably be debated by the pure
capabilities of integrated usage of EMS, densitometers, NAS, and LADAR sets
that are common on good military ships of greater than 1k dt).  Putting that
in a dedicated EW space fighter is more than possible.

> >Taking a planet is going to be hard, I agree, but your argument has
> >wandered from why a (TL8) F22 is better than a (TL15) Rampart in an
> >atmosphere to why a TL15 Rampart will most likely be destroyed if attacking
> >a TL15 world with TL15 designed airspace fighters.
> >
> 
> That was never my argument.  My basic premise was that a TL15 space craft
> would be no match for a TL15 air craft in the atmosphere.  I think that the
> first poster had the other premise.  The TL15 space crafts laser would
> decide the battle with the TL8 fighter plane provided it has the sensors to
> use it in the atmosphere.  If the fighter get off his heat seakers the space
> ship is toast.  Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough

Except when you use the laser to pick off the heat seakers.

> missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
> would take them to arrive.

This has already been countered by someone else.

>  The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
> safe from the space ships laser.  Their radar would not be bothered but most

Highly debatable.  The distance is paltry.  The range for full effect (in TNE
it's 1/10-30, which makes a final pen value up to 312) in a standard
atmosphere for the ramparts laser (144Mj) has a range of 6,000 km.  In a dense
atmosphere, it's half that (3,000 km).  Maybe you think a cloudbank will cut
the performance by even more than a "dense atmosphere"...  How much?  Cut it
by a 1000 times and I can still get you from 6km.  Traveller space lasers are
powerful.

<snip>
> weapons.  I find it a little hard to believe the far furture weapons systems
> are as pourly integrated as they as portray to be in traveller.

Where is this portrayal?   You need a copy of RCVG, methinks.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 00:39:11 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: FUDGEing Traverller, part 2:  Combat, Wounds and Injuries (Long)

As I said in part 1, or should have said if I didn't, these notes
are my way of doing things in a FUDGE like way.  

I've boosted the damage capacity scale for characters somewhat
because I want to use damage numbers for weapons more like CT (or
GURPS).  Let me also say that, in the spirit of FUDGE, everything
here is a guideline and subject to fudging as the situation merits.

Eris

INJURY AND WOUND CLASSIFICATIONS

In FUDGE there are seven classifications of injury or wound:

0 NONE -- The blow did no discernible damage and, other than
producing a FAIR chance of the character aborting his current
action, has no effect on play.  Most punches and many kicks fall
into this category.  The character may notice they are nicked and
bruised after combat, or perhaps the next day, but that is all.  

1 SCRATCH -- This category's name comes from the movie expression
"It's only a scratch!"  Injuries or wounds in this category
definitely hurt and have a GREAT chance of causing the character to
abort his current action.  SCRATCHES accumulate and if the character
gets scratched often enough he will become more seriously injured.
A few punches, a fair number of kicks, and most club blows fall into
this category.  A SCRATCH is the least amount of damage you can
expect from an small edged weapon or pistol.

2 LIGHT WOUND/MINOR INJURY -- Now the character is taking enough
damage to affect his actions.  He will abort his current action,
have a FAIR chance of being knocked down, but only a POOR chance of
being knocked out.  All future tasks he attempts will be one level
harder until this injury is healed.  A few punches and a few kicks
will cause a a LIGHT WOUND, as will a fair number of club blows.
Small edged weapons and light pistols most often cause this sort of
injury.  This is the least amount of damage you can expect from a
larger edged weapon (sword), heavy pistol, or light rifle.

3 SERIOUS WOUND/MAJOR INJURY -- A character taking a blow this
serious is likely to be "out of a fight."  She will lose her current
action, have a GREAT chance of falling down, a FAIR chance of being
knocked out, and all future tasks will be two levels harder until
this wound is healed (or reduced to the MINOR category where tasks
are one level harder).  If a Seriously Wounded character continues
to act she runs a MEDIOCRE chance of increasing her injury and there
is POOR chance that the wound will worsen without treatment.  All
edged weapons and guns can produce SERIOUS WOUNDS, amd this level of
injury is common from single wounds inflicted by swords, heavy
pistols and light rifles.

4 INCAPACITATED -- The character is definitely "out of the fight",
falling down and lapsing into unconsciousness from a blow of this
severity.  After he recovers consiousness all tasks are four levels
more difficult until the wound can be reduced, and he has a GOOD
chance of injuring himself more severely if he does anything other
than lie still, and even then there is a MEDIOCRE chance the wound
will worsen without immediate treatment.  Even standing up takes a
GREAT effort.  Heavy edged weapons (great swords, war axes) and
rifles will often cause this level of injury with a single blow.

5 NEAR DEATH -- The character is not only INCAPACITATED, but is in
danger of dying within a few minutes.  Only immediate treatment to
stabilize his injuries will save this character.

6 DEAD/DESTROYED -- It is up to the GM to decide when this occurs,
but if a character takes damage far beyond NEAR DEATH...well, "He's
dead, Jim!"

NOTES:	

 1.  A blow to the head does double damage.
 
 2.  A blow to arms or legs does half damage.

 3.  A Critical Success (success by 3+ levels) does double damage,
    and may give other advantages.

	(SPECIAL NOTE:  A Critical Success on an injury to the head does
     *4* times normal damage!)


DAMAGE CAPACITY

I am using Constitution or Endurance for this value, however Size
(the sheer mass of the character) really should come into play here.

Specie    CON Rating     Capacity
- ------------------------------------
Humans  Superb, or greater  5
        Poor+ to Great+     4
        Poor, or less       3

Vargr   Superb+, or greater 5
        Mediocre to Superb  4
        Poor+, or less      3

Aslan   Great, or greater   5
female  Poor to Good+       4
        Terrible+, or less  3

Aslan   Great+, or greater  6
male    Mediocre+ to Great  5
        Mediocre, or less   4


WOUND TRACKS

Injuries and wounds are recorded on a wound track for each
character. Multiply the character's Wound Capacity by...
  
  1 SCRATCH
  2 LT WOUND
  3 MAJ WOUND
  4 INCAPACITATED
  5 NEAR DEATH

...for the maximum points that character can absorb at that level
from a single blow/injury.  Use the example of a human with a FAIR
Constitution rating below as a guide.

WOUND TRACK (for Joe Generio FAIR CON rating)

                  LIGHT   MAJOR               NEAR
  NONE  SCRATCH   WOUND   WOUND INCAPACITATED DEATH
 -----------------------------------------------------
    0    1 - 4    5 - 8   9 - 12   13 - 16   17 - 20+
 -----------------------------------------------------
 Lethal  O O O     O O      O         O         O
 Stun    _ _ _     _ _      _         _         _
 -----------------------------------------------------
   0*4    1*4      2*4     3*4       4*4       5*4


When a SCRATCH is taken put an S in the left most empty box.  When a
LT or MAJ WOUND is taken put an X in the left most empty box of the
appropriate level, or the first empty box to the right of that
level.


STUN DAMAGE

All weapons that blast, burn, crush, puncture and cut a body do some
amount of stun damage in addition to any lethal damage they do.
Edged weapons and guns generally do equal amounts of stunning and
lethal damage, but some attacks, primarily clubs, punches and kicks,
do more stunning damage than lethal.

Weapons with an (S) modifier in the following table do half lethal
damage, but full stunning damage.  The effects of stunning attacks
last during the current combat, but have fewer and milder lasting
effects.  A character may be staggered and fall down, stunned into
unconsiousness, and have lowered ability to perform tasks, but a
*stun*, in and of itself, can not kill and won't last far beyond the
current combat. Of course, the acompanying Lethal damage can.

Place an S in the appropriate box of the Stun line of the Wound
Track, as per lethal damage, and check for falling, unconsciousness,
and loss of skill, *and* place an X (for LT or MAJ WOUND) or S (for
SCRATCH) at the appropriate level for 1/2 the number of points
rolled in the box on the Lethal line of the Wound Track.


 WEAPON              DAMAGE         EFFECTIVE RANGE
 --------------------------------------------------
 Punch              1d6-3+STR (S)
 Kick               1d6-1+STR (S)
 Small Club         1d6+STR (S)
 Large Club         1d6+2+STR (S)
 Small Knife        1d6+1+STR
 Large Knife
   Small Sword      2d6-1+STR
 Hand Ax
   Sword            2d6+STR
 Spear              2d6+1+STR
 Great Ax
   Great Sword      3d6+STR
                                    in meters
 .22 Revolver       1d6                 32
 .32 Revolver       1d6+2               32
 9mm Revolver       2d6                 64
 .44 Revolver                           
     (magnum)       2d6+2               48
 10mm Snub Pistol                       36
      HE            1d6                 
      HEAT          2d6(3)
      CHEM          Special
 5mm Body Pistol    2d6-1               40
 7mm AutoPistol     2d6                 48
 9mm AutoPistol     2d6+2               64
 .45 AutoPistol     3d6                 48
 4mm Gauss          6d6(2)              80

 Shotgun            4d6                 20

 5mm SMG            2d6                 40
 9mm SMG            3d-1                48
 .45 SMG            3d6+1               40

 5.5 Carbine        3d6                 80
 5.5 Cbt Rifle      4d6                100
 7.6 Cbt Rifle      5d6                160
 9mm Rifle          6d6                 88
 13mm Rifle         8d6                200
 7mm ACR            6d6                120
     AP             6d6+2(2)           180
 9mm ACR            7d6-1               88
     AP             7d6+1(2)            96
 4mm Gauss Rifle    8d6(2)             140

 Laser Pistol-9     2d6                120
 Laser Pistol-12    2d6+1(2)           160
 Laser Carbine-8    2d6+2              320
 Laser Carbine-12   3d6(2)             400
 Laser Rifle-9      4d6                360
 Laser Rifle-12     5d6(2)             480
 
NOTES:

 1. Melee weapons depend, at least in part, on the Strength of the
    weapon's user, so STR is included in the damage calculation.
    
 2. Coordination (DEX or AGL) is important in melee combat in the
    role of making a hits and critical hits more likely, not in the
    amount of damage the weapon does.
    
 3. Some ranged weapons fire armor piercing projectiles.  These are
    represented with a (#) modifier in the above table.  Two points
    of Armor is penetrated for each point the weapon generates.
    
 4. Weapon damage is close to that produced by GURPS, but is fudged
    somewhat..what else do you expect. ;->
    
 5. Ranges are somewhat fudged at this time, but follow a basic
    format of (Effective Range = ER):
    
      ER/8  Contact 
      ER/4  V Short
      ER/2  Short
      ER    Effective
      ER*2  Long
      ER*4  V Long
      ER*8  Extreme

...end of part 2.    


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #357
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 27 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 358



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346
Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: Merchants
Re: kinetic kill
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: igNoble Etiquette.
Re: max accel
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346
Far Trader - Second Impressions
Re: Merchants
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:30:10 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
...
>gaming industry greats I only knew by reputation. BTW; we were next to WOTC's
>booth, and they were a really nice bunch of gals and guys; I'm re-evaluating
>my opinion of the company (I listened to all the anti WOTC rants on line, and
>am now wondering if they're true...)

  FWIW, I was browsing recently and couldn't help but notice that a shrink-
wrapped WoTC/TSR stapled pamphlet (aka "adventure") retails for almost as
much as the smaller SJG books; as the bigger SJG products are even better
deals that pricing comparison hardly bears thinking about.

  I wonder how they justify that cost for their AD&D and Alternity output?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:55:47 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

>  FWIW, I was browsing recently and couldn't help but notice that a shrink-
>wrapped WoTC/TSR stapled pamphlet (aka "adventure") retails for almost as
>much as the smaller SJG books; as the bigger SJG products are even better
>deals that pricing comparison hardly bears thinking about.
>
>  I wonder how they justify that cost for their AD&D and Alternity output?

Colour.  Unless they've changed since WoTC took them over it sure isn't
quality.  AD&D 1st ed. was decent, but second edition has simply been about
making a buck.
Needless to say, I've picked up a lot of 1st ed stuff and about 3 2nd ed.
books.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:00:23 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

In TML 352, "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote'

[snip]
>>As to Frank Pitt's suggestion that intelligence is being bred out of
>>modern Western society, how do you account for the breakthroughs in
>>genetics and world wide communciations, which happened primarily in the
>>West?
>
>Simple, most of them have been made by _in_ the West but by Chinese, Indian,
>Russian, etc, researchers.
>
>I have no idea, whether it's at all true, but what I do know is that US and
>other Western countries are increasingly importing high tech and scientific
>personnel from "third world" locations because they can't find the skills,
>knowledge and ability locally.
>
[snip]

I think (and an currently experiencing) this issue, abet in a closely
related context. You have observed, correctly, that those in a given
society are importing talent to make breakthroughs. You have no data no the
relationship of said talent to the making of those breakthroughs.

My experience is that within a given society e.g. IBM everyone is
indictrinated, made homogenious to that society, in short they
live/think/breath/imagine inside that box. While they will progress the
technology of e.g. IBM they will do so by conventional means, one
shuffeling step at a time. By importing talent you have someone/thing with
fresh/out side the box concepts or approach. They bring change by different
perspective to a situation/problem, i.e. they enable jumps or lateral
progression.

The flipside (also my experience) anyone within a confined society are
often xenophobic and resist any source of cross fretalisation of ideas,
making them notable through rearity. Another style of management insists
that source of cross fertalisation is temporary ammounting to intelectual
or effort pillageing e.g. large corps that scout talent from universities
use it (hard)as bonded labour then as it transforns into drones like the
majority of its employee base, and then dismiss them.

I suggest that what you have observed here is the benefit of cultural cross
fertalisation and a strong argument infavour of cultural diversity.



Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:00:29 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

In TML 352, "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote'

[snip]
>A delegation of Silicon Valley CEOs recently went to see Clinton to lobby him
>into preventing the imposition of stronger immigration restrictions for exacty
>that reason, they claimed the US was unable to produce the sort of highly
>skilled and knowledgable people they needed.
>
>This is nothing new as well. Way back in 1979 Jerr Pournelle and Robert
>Heinlien were bemoaning the lack of engineerig graduates coming out of US
>colleges, and predicting that the US would have to import it's engineers
>in future. With Jerry and >Robert's patriotism, they actually tried to
>prevent such articles getting to overseas locations back >then !
>
[snip]

Again while I appriciate thre point, but my current experience is at odds
with you here. By your admission Pournelle & Heinlien (1979) bemoned the
lack of forsight or intelegence of leaders in failing to ensuer an adiquate
pool of suitably educated labour. We can see this in Real Life (tm) with
the ministrations of Bax Bradford (NZ Minister of Tertiary Education),
prevoiusly Wyatt Creech (NZ Minister of  Education). Who are manipulating
sections of the higher educationed labour pool by modifying the cost of
specific education paths to encourage/discourage entry. These are directly
related to anticipated earnings once in the work force not to projected
workforce vacancies.

This results in very compedative if well paid sectors of an ecomomy and
underpaid and undertrained sectors with significant dissafected labour
turnover.

Trav Obs:
In a command economy it is possible to allocate a given number of education
slots to given career paths. Within the Third Imperium the restraints on
educated labour are relatively few. To maimtain that pool of educated
labour in the face of vacancies in another economy requires intellegence or
dictitioral methods.

In the case of high law level systems this can be used to help explain the
restriction on travel. Educated labour might not be owned but contracted
and indentured, with uneducated population being more able to travel if
only the could afford it.



Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 04:00:19 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> Unfortunately this is a business con. You've got to be a Manufacturer,
> Distributor or Retailer to get in. There is also no gaming; it's all business...

I've heard that before.  I was at the Game Developer's Conference last week.
And thats all business.  Big business.

Yet what does my C.O.O. discover when he goes to meet the staff of
Interplay (publishers of Baldur's Gate) about a business deal between them
and us [shameless plug omitted but follow the URL in my Sig if interested],
these business executives were up all night the evening before playing good
ol' pencil and paper AD&D.  They said they hadn't done so in 10 years.

Now if only I could convince Marc M. to license Traveller to Interplay
(no offense to Fenris-Wolf, I've never seen their products), since their
own executives have ably demonstrated how a Computer RPG
rejuvenates interest in the traditional form.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:20:20 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Merchants

?(1) Trader's Guild: Sort of like the "Ace Hardware" answer to Home
>Depot/Lowe's.

When you said "Ace Hardware" when talking about space merchants, it
immediately reminded me of Ace Trucking Co, with GBH and co, from 2000AD.

Anyone ever thought of using _that_ environment as a model for Traveller ?

Smokeys hiding behind orbital billboards, and all the merchants talking CB
lingo, c'mon ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 04:35:44 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: kinetic kill

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 10:58 AM
Subject: kinetic kill


>\
>
>>Several people have mentioned that you can detect objects with an apparent
>>diameter smaller than their sensor resolution.  This is clearly true.
>>However, using a star- i.e. a massive all-wavelength EMITTER, is a very
bad
>>comparison with a small masked target.  After all, the only part of the
>>missile that will be seen is the 2m diameter ablative-foam "mushroom"
shield
>>on the tip.  While hardly very sophisticated, a very-low density foam will
>>be a very, very good EMS shield.  At best, the shield will be a few
>>fractions of a degree above ambient background radiation.
>People keep saying this, but it's not true. A black foam shield at 1 AU
>will rapidly heat up to room temperature from sunlight, easily
>detectable by thermal infrared against space. If it's a white
>shield, it won't heat up as much but you'll see it by reflected sunlight.
>SO you need a black shield and you need to cool it actively,  which means
>you need refrigeration, which needs power, which means you need a place
>to radiate away waste heat...
>

Well, actually, even using TL-8 materials, there are several ceramics that
have perform very well in the thermal shield role.  For example, the tiles
used by the space shuttle don't become warm to the touch until well after
reaching incandescence.  The NASA video showed a scientist picking up a
peice after it had been subjected to an acetelyn (sp?) torch long enough to
glow white-hot.  The scientist used his bare hands.  Given 7 more TLs I find
it hard to believe that a material that doesn't fit the bill better will
come along.  Even worse, simply put the missile in a black globe.
Expensive, but not likely to shot down, either.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:07:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:

>Meson guns ? Yeah. The weapon of choice for planetary defense everywhere.

Isn't there an undocumented feature in FFS2 (FFS1) that forgot about
minimum tunnel lengths for meson weapons which means Ditzie gets more
exciting toys?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:30:01 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>> And if the fighter is designed at the same tech level so will the fighter.
>> If fact the fighter will be able to manuver better.  Your happy fun ball has
>> to use 1 G just to say in the air.  It has to use more of it's Gs to slow
>
>Not, it doesn't.  It's called Contra Grav.

Actually Gary, I looked into this: Contragrav is only a T4 and a TNE
artifact. MT uses 'antigrav modules' on ships below 20dt. This are
functionally a cross between CG and a T-Plate. The Rampart (MT design
version in Ref's companion, Arrival Vengeance) has the Anti Grav drive, not
T Plates. So I can see where Charles is coming from, even though his space
craft may have trouble landing if non-airframe. The Rampart is an Airframe
design.

>So design your apple.  The discussion was about an F22 against a Rampart.
>We're having the new discussion now, it seems.  :-)

Charles did change the frame of the discussion - I reread the thread. It
just wasn't clear he had done so.


>Who says?  That's ludicrous.  You do actually play the game right?  First
>design your atmosphere fighter.  Then run a combat and tell us the results.
>I've seen a few grav tank vs space military ships vs civilian space ships
>(trader class ships).

You'd better agree design systems, because I think you're talking either:

CT with HG and Striker.
MT with COACC
FFS1
or
FFS2


>>Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
>
>Except when you use the laser to pick off the heat seakers.

Or use your 6G to climb out of the atmosphere and kill your opponents cheap
air breathing weapons.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:11:46 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>> While we are at at this lets look at some ome the other support the
>> aerofighter can expect.  How about a Iowa class battle ship with it's 16'
>> guns replaces with type T mason guns, it's 5' guns replaced with type d
>> mason guns, and all it AAs replaces with heavy rapid fire lasers.
>
>Now that is an elegantly violent idea.

The problem with this defense concept is that it relies on a large number
of stonecutters being available for weapons duty :-)

The other problems is I start attacking your oceans (tidal waves etc) and
really start to hurt your ecology as I use nukes and deadfall KK munitions.
Maybe even a few small rocks from mass drivers a la the Centauri on Narn in
B5.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:07:22 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: igNoble Etiquette.

	1) An armed society is a polite society

	2)  Courtesy, at its base, is the false-face necessary to preserve one's
position in the presence of a monarch.

	Therefore I would imagine that Imperial nobles will be scrupulously polite
people.  First because the risk having to fight a duel if they offend another
noble.   Secondly, an emperor of whatever calibre simply cannot know or pay
attention to the behavior of trillions of citizens, however, he can become
reasonably aware of the characters of the members of the nobility.  The nobles
will find it in their best interest to behave in a very un-Cliff-like manner. 
	On their homeworlds, nobles may act in a hig-handed and intolerable manner,
but on other worlds they risk offending either the noble responsible for the
world or the emperor and so would also be on their beter behavior.
	So, publically all nobles would be models of correct behavior (incidentaly
the thing that most commends an aristocracy)   but in private, those with bad
characters will act badly, those with good characters will act well.
	So, for those who think that "expressing one's authentic feelings" is really
important, the noblity will constantly confound your sensibilities.

		Dave "The Old Marquis" Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:45:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

>>Hardly. How are you going to deal with a "plane" that goes zipping by
>>at mach 25? That's roughly 5 miles a *second*. Your guns are useless,
>>because the Rampart is flying faster than the muzzle velocity. Your
>>missiles are equally useless, since their top speed is too slow, and
>>it'll be out of range long before they get up to it.
>>
>>Again, the G-rating for ships and the g-ratings for aircraft are
>>measuring *totally* different things. 
>>
>>Think of a ship's g-rating as being the same as the "thrust to weight
>>ratio" of a fighter. When you look at it that way *then* you realize
>>that 6g is *awesome*.
>
> A couple of problems here.  The rampart as drawn does not have the wing
> surface to turn in the atmosphere with an F16 or any other fighter.  In the
> atmosphere aerodynamics are what count.

I wasn't aware of the Rampart's configuration. I was making the
(apparently unfounded) assumption that it was *intelligently* designed.
:-)

> Next, while a rampart could be going mach 25 in space I dought that it could
> do so in the atmosphere for more than the few seconds that reentry interface
> takes to brake it.  The heat caused by air friction at that speed would melt
> titanium if it were maitained for any real length of time.

Well, the hulls of Traveller ships are a bit sturdier than that. And
there are various means of dealing with the friction. Tiles like on the
shuttle, playing games with electrostatic fields to "guide" the plasma
around the hull instead of across it, and who knows what else. 

BTW, titanium is *not* that high a melting point. Try something like
tungsten carbide!

As for your other points, they are ok, but I was concerned with his
mistaken impressions about g-ratings and performance.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:29:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson posted:
>>
>>A kinetic kill missile *cannot* hit without active guidance. And *that*
>>is what the laser can knock out.
>
> Ok, Leonard, you've caused a number of questions
> to bubble out of my ignorant brain. :-)

<snip>

> If both of the above are true, why not let the
> launching ship guide the missile to its target
> and then allow the missile to home during the
> terminal approach on the target?

Possibly. But you *then* have to deal with speed of light lag. The ship
doing the controlling is seeing where the target (and the missile,
incidentally!) was at some point in the past. If you are 5 hexes away,
then you'll be looking at where the missile and target were .5 seconds
ago, and your commands will take *another* .5 seconds to get there.

This makes steering *very* hard. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:11:16 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

In a message dated 3/27/99 2:29:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:

<< 
   I wonder how they justify that cost for their AD&D and Alternity output?
  >>

Yep, you need about $100 to play an Alternity StarDrive campaign.  ($30
players' book, $30 GM book, $30 sourcebook)   No thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:13:45 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

In a message dated 3/27/99 2:54:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rfields@actrix.gen.nz writes:

<< Who are manipulating
 sections of the higher educationed labour pool by modifying the cost of
 specific education paths to encourage/discourage entry >>

	Sounds good, could you convince the US government to quadruple the cost of
Law School and half the cost of Engineering school?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:57:45 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Far Trader - Second Impressions

I've been looking through Far Trader and wanted to pass on
my thoughts (feel free to ignore them ;-) ).

For me, the best thing about Far Trader is it allows the
calculation of the volume of passenger traffic between worlds,
current passenger volume, passenger availability by type, and
ticket price negotiation. All the formulas are simple to use
(i.e. no calculator is necessary, IMO).

For those of you who don't care about these, Free Traders also
includes rules for stock markets, speculative trade, stock futures,
market performance, dividends, ship insurance, in-system traffic
control procedures and navigation aids, jump-point masking by stars
and planets, starport arrival/departure procedures, customs
inspections, freight handling, merchant character generation, piracy,
and additional merchant ship deckplans.

And more...

Some may want to tweak some of the economic rules to suit their
tastes but there has *never* been a Traveller supplement
published by *anyone* which has so much usable information
and ideas pertaining to the economics of starships and the
Imperium. Not even by GDW. This one supplement is useful for
_any_ version of Traveller, including home rules, and even
non-Traveller campaigns.

Whether you've been playing Traveller for over a decade or just
starting, if you buy nothing else related to GURPS: Traveller,
buy Far Trader.

You won't regret it.


David Smart
warlock@imagin.net
dasmart@lucent.com
Traveller collector since 1979

P.S.

Loren, what can I say? Christopher Thrash, Jim MacLean, and Steve
Daniels just made me a GURPS/SJG fanatic. BRAVO, gentlemen, BRAVO!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:41:22
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Merchants

At 10:20 PM 5/27/99 +1200, Frankie wrote:

>Smokeys hiding behind orbital billboards, and all the merchants talking CB
>lingo, c'mon ?

There was a fairly decent movie named _Space Truckers_ made a few years
ago.. I don't remember it getting to out theaters, but caught it on
Showtime a few times.

Deniis Hopper plays a crusty in-system long hauler who gets pushed into
hauling a sealed load to Earth orbit.  Along the way he and his fiancee and
the newbie kid get captured by pirates, etc., etc.,..

Pretty decent idea and a gold mine for NPCs, settings, flavor text and the
like.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:45:29 EST
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

Hi-
  I think I may set a standard here- my wife, a non-gamer (so far) is backing
me in opening a FLGS! Due to open in May. While she doesn't understand gaming,
she knows how much I enjoy it so she pushed me to turn "my advocation into a
vocation".
   I'm about as lucky as a guy can be!
J.LaRosee
Owner of the soon to open Medieval Starship 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:14:17 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <JLAROSEE@aol.com>
:   I think I may set a standard here- my wife, a non-gamer (so far) is
backing
: me in opening a FLGS! Due to open in May. While she doesn't understand
gaming,
: she knows how much I enjoy it so she pushed me to turn "my advocation
into a
: vocation".
:    I'm about as lucky as a guy can be!
: J.LaRosee
: Owner of the soon to open Medieval Starship

<sigh> :-p

ObTrav: I have yet to Ref a game where the entrepreneurial bent was
toward anything that did not require a starship or a pile of military
hardware.  Might a Campaign where the characters open a casino or a
weapons store be a challenging and exciting scenario, rife with pitfalls
(and pratfalls)?


==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader

___________hosted_by___________
               www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:14:48 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

JL, that's great! Good luck with the store. I've always wanted to run a game
store... but found my life taking me in a different direction. So, I'll let
you live my dream for me (and I'm sure many other peoples dream's as well)

Congrats,
Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)


>From: JLAROSEE@aol.com <JLAROSEE@aol.com>

>Hi-
>  I think I may set a standard here- my wife, a non-gamer (so far) is
backing
>me in opening a FLGS! Due to open in May. While she doesn't understand
gaming,
>she knows how much I enjoy it so she pushed me to turn "my advocation into
a
>vocation".
>   I'm about as lucky as a guy can be!
>J.LaRosee
>Owner of the soon to open Medieval Starship
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:15:18 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

>so that none of its bits hit you (and remember, vapour *is* bits)

If you destroy it far enough out, the vapour isn't an issue. A 1 tonne
1000 km/s missile has an energy of 10^15 J, which is a lot...but if I destroy
it ten seconds out, the fireball will have spread to ~100 km radius by the
time it hits me, and the energy density as it hits me will be about 10^5
joules per square meter, or 10 joules per square centimeter, which is like
getting hit by a pellet from a BB gun (on every facing square centimeter, true,
but sensors and radiators can be devised to withstand that.)

Of course, no plausible laser could vapourise a 1 tonne missile, but (for
example) the impact of anopther kinetic energy weapon could.

>Which brings up the second question. How can you hit anything? Well, you
>can't, unless you know where the target is *going* to be when the missile
>actually arrives. That means a major investment in target tracking computer
>power and scanning - check out the longscan idea in Carol Cherryh's books.

No matter how good your target tracking is, if the target can maneuver at
Traveller levels you can't hit it with a ballistic-course weapon. The target
can track the missile until it goes ballistic, predict its course, and
move out of the way *easily*. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:31:30 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

Charles Prevatte wrote:

> >       Hey! I've beem gypped! Somebody owes me either enough time for
> >gaming OR a love relationship! Boy, whatta decision ...
> >
> >
>
> Try my solution, date a GAMER!  My SO is both a player and a GM.

Does she have a sister?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:57:18 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

In a message dated 3/27/99 4:17:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< 
 	Sounds good, could you convince the US government to quadruple the cost of
 Law School and half the cost of Engineering school?
 
  >>

Never happen; 90% of all legislators are lawyers...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #358
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 27 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 359



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)
Re: max accel
Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Tales of the Tai-Pan
Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: kinetic kill
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
Re: Far Trader - Second Impressions
Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality
Re: Kinetic Kill Missile Guidance
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium
The Virtual TAS Lounge
Re: The Virtual TAS Lounge
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #352
Re: kinetic kill
Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: Atmospheric Fighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:03:43 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: max accel

>>BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
>>than a plane.
>>
>
>I dought it.  Drag would kill your speed.  No matter how many Gs you have
>you still have to deal with terminal velosity and wind effects.  A sphere
>has a terminal velosity around 200-280 mph at one G.  That is the point when
>air resistance cancel out acceleration.  The effect is non linear and goes
>through some wierd permutations arround the speed of sound.  At those speeds
>you are talking some serious design limitations.  One small mistake in your
>surface geometry and the wind tears your ship apart.

Actually, IIRC, the ideal (as in least-drag) shape for an object travelling
through a fluid, is a teardrop, going rounded-end forward.  That's why
Lensmen ships were that shape....



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:07:28 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

In a message dated 3/27/99 7:48:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, JLAROSEE@aol.com
writes:

<< Hi-
   I think I may set a standard here- my wife, a non-gamer (so far) is backing
 me in opening a FLGS! Due to open in May. While she doesn't understand
gaming,
 she knows how much I enjoy it so she pushed me to turn "my advocation into a
 vocation".
    I'm about as lucky as a guy can be!
 J.LaRosee
 Owner of the soon to open Medieval Starship >>

Good luck with your shop. At the GAMA con; I talked to many businessmen/women
at all three levels (retail,distributor,manufacturer). A LOT had either a
partnership (often husband/wife) of two or more people that covered both the
creative/gaming end, and the beancounter/business end, or a staff that had
both professional managers and creative people. Often the business people
weren't gamers. This combo works VERY well. My local FGLS has the husband
doing the day to day stuff (when he's not gaming...:-)), and his wife does the
books...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:33:34 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)

> > A couple of problems here.  The rampart as drawn does not have the wing
> > surface to turn in the atmosphere with an F16 or any other fighter.  In
the
> > atmosphere aerodynamics are what count.
> 
> I wasn't aware of the Rampart's configuration. I was making the
> (apparently unfounded) assumption that it was *intelligently* designed.
> :-)

Well, it could be intelligently designed (though the one in BL wasn't- no MFD.
too much for the pilot to do, etc) and it's just the artwork that bites.  It's
usually drawn looking like a big missile with some canard-looking things
rather than actual "wings."  IIRC, they're said to be retractable, too.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:33:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

> >Not, it doesn't.  It's called Contra Grav.
> 
> Actually Gary, I looked into this: Contragrav is only a T4 and a TNE
> artifact. MT uses 'antigrav modules' on ships below 20dt. This are
> functionally a cross between CG and a T-Plate. The Rampart (MT design
> version in Ref's companion, Arrival Vengeance) has the Anti Grav drive, not
> T Plates. So I can see where Charles is coming from, even though his space
> craft may have trouble landing if non-airframe. The Rampart is an Airframe
> design.

Hmm...  You're right.  How do these antigrav "modules" behave?  Just by the
wording, it would imply it acts like CG.  I don't see anything in the SoM...

> You'd better agree design systems, because I think you're talking either:
> 
> CT with HG and Striker.
> MT with COACC
> FFS1
> or
> FFS2

Naturally, I'm most proficient with and prefer FF&S1.  I can manage MT &
COACC, though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I try.  I have FFS2
but have never used it for anything other than data mining for TNE.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:33:37 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

Zane wrote:

> >  I wonder how they justify that cost for their AD&D and Alternity output?
> 
> Colour.  Unless they've changed since WoTC took them over it sure isn't
> quality.  AD&D 1st ed. was decent, but second edition has simply been about
> making a buck.  
> Needless to say, I've picked up a lot of 1st ed stuff and about 3 2nd ed.
> books.

I'm at the opposite here.  I think 2nd ed both looks and is alot better than
the 1st.  Course, I hardly crack the covers and either my 1st or 2nd ed books
anymore and the long running campaigns ended w/ my last TNE campaigns (having
largely been supplanted by).  The 1st ed looks like crap to me, and always
seemed kinda quirky when using, especially the books I term "edition 1.5"
(Oriental Adventures, the Dungeoneers and Wilderness Survival Guides, etc).

Dave Nelson wrote:

> Yep, you need about $100 to play an Alternity StarDrive campaign.  ($30
> players' book, $30 GM book, $30 sourcebook)   No thanks.

You're not a M:0 Campaign owner are you?  $29.95.  Compare that to the
StarDrive book.  I don't even play Alternity or StarDrive and I'd buy it
first.  Any day of the week.  How much was the base T4 book (hardback)?  Lump
Starships and First Survey and Emperor's Vehicles in there and you might have
some poor newbie who's more than glad to have Alternity, which is well
produced with a good game engine with good support.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:49:17 -0800
From: "Jeffrey Cornish" <boy_scout@msn.com>
Subject: Tales of the Tai-Pan

All (and Jesse especially)

Not to bring up anything that is too off-topic...

If you have a problem with 'furries' then you haven't seen good furry
fiction, yet.

The Fanzine that I contribute to (and act as technical consultant on) has
just printed our Issue #20.  The universe isn't very much like Traveller,
but we have some great stories about the crews of the freighter 'Tai Pan,'
the pirate 'Ikotome,' the research vessel 'Ramanujan' and the luxurious
'Quantum Lady.'

You can take a look at it here:  http://www.eskimo.com/~baubo/taipan.html

Jeffrey Cornish

(see, Jesse, not all anthropomorphic stuff is stupid <grin>)


//////////////////////
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:01:14 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier
varg	r...

In spite of Florence looking an awful lot like a furry (and I'm one of the
founding members of the Intergalactic Furry Hunters Association) it is a
funny comic :)  I couldn't quite follow your ROFLMAOSTCASOMK
though.....Must,,,get,,,more,,,caffeine,,,,,

Jesse  :)

>OMIGAWD!!!
>
>ROFLMAOSTCASOMK!!!!!!
>
>AKUS PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS!!!!!
>
>Jeff Cornish wrote
>>
>> Well, not really a Vargr.  She's a geneteched Bowman's wolf.
>>
>> Worth a look!
>>
>> http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
>>
>> Jeffrey Cornish
>> "I use Traveller as background material for Albedo Anthropomorphics"
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:05:54 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> Zane wrote:
>
> I'm at the opposite here.  I think 2nd ed both looks and is alot better than
> the 1st.

I agree.  2nd edition D&D blew the doors off 1st edition.  It was well worth the
money in my book.

And, someone was speaking about blowing $100 on playing a role playing game.  I
still say that gaming is one of the cheapest hobbies out there--if you calcuate
how much time you invest in it versus the dollars you spend on movies, plays,
going to a baseball game, or whatever.  Gaming is just down right cheap--when you
figure that if you weren't gaming that night, you probably would have been
spending about $20-30 bucks that night, with the same guys, out at the local pub,
playing pool or throwing darts and drinking a beer.

What we do in my game is pass the hat.  Periodically (about once very three
months) I'll pass the hat.  Each player coughs up $20 bucks.  I throw in a 20
spot myself.  That gives us $100 to go out and buy gaming material with, so we
load up.  My reward for spending the extra time I put into the game as a GM is
ownership of the books.

This is a great system, and we have a large library.  No body is hurt monetarily
($80 bucks a year, spread out over three month periods, is nothing).  And, our
game continues with everything we could want--all of us having a blast.

I recommend this if you are not already playing this way.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:26:39 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: kinetic kill

Re: kinetic kill

>Well, actually, even using TL-8 materials, there are several ceramics that
>have perform very well in the thermal shield role.  For example, the tiles
>used by the space shuttle don't become warm to the touch until well after
>reaching incandescence.  The NASA video showed a scientist picking up a
>peice after it had been subjected to an acetelyn (sp?) torch long enough to
>glow white-hot.  The scientist used his bare hands.  Given 7 more TLs I find
>it hard to believe that a material that doesn't fit the bill better will
>come along.  Even worse, simply put the missile in a black globe.
>Expensive, but not likely to shot down, either.

Barring the black globe option, it's set by the laws of thermodynamics. If
a material is absorbing 1000 W/m2 of sunlight (which a black object will be)
it has to radiate 1000 W/m2 of heat at some infrared wavelengths. If it
radiates less heat than that, it'll warm up until it does radiate this much
heat. It's a fundamental consequence of the laws of thermodynamics.

Shuttle tile stuff mainly demonstrates that it's a good inulator - if one 
side is white-hot the other can still be cold - not that it won't absorb
and reradiate heat. It'll do a good job of stopping heat generated inside
the missile from getting out, or heat from outside from getting in, but
the surface has to be radiating away the heat it's absorbing unless it's
actively or passively refrigerated.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:06:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

>         You're probably a scientist.   Scientists have the narrow
> viewpoint that only the proveable is true, and all that is true is
> proveable.

Actually, you've got science exactly *backwards*. Science is based on
the fact that it is *impossible* to "prove" something. You can only
*disprove* it. So science concerns itself with things that can be
tested. And requires that there be a way to *disprove* something before
it can be accepted as a theory.

So science is based on the idea that the *dis*-provable is false. It
doesn't claim to know "the truth". It claims to have a set of rules
that have weathered all attempts (so far) to disprove them. 

This works better than anything else we've found so far, and in fact,
when the rules get changed, it's a matter of the old rules turning out
to be a "special case" of the new ones. That is, under more common
conditions, the new rules are indistinguishable from the old ones, it's
just when you get into extreme conditions that you can find a
difference.

This pretty much *has* to be true or the old rules wouldn't have given
right answers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:34:24 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader - Second Impressions

David Smart wrote:

> Loren, what can I say? Christopher Thrash, Jim MacLean, and Steve
> Daniels just made me a GURPS/SJG fanatic. BRAVO, gentlemen, BRAVO!

I can't speak for the rest, but I'm blushing.
It was an honor and a pleasure to be involved.
- --
Bloo (aka Steve Daniels)
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:37:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

In mail you write:

> Note that the type of fusion described is "Inertial Confinement" fusion,
> whereas the fusion usually associated with the Traveller concept is
> "magnetic confinement" fusion, like what is done here at MIT.

And then there's "electrostatic confinement". There was an article
about that in Analog a while back. Cute idea, based on *old*
technology. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:46:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missile Guidance

In mail you write:

> Several people have mentioned that you can detect objects with an apparent
> diameter smaller than their sensor resolution.  This is clearly true.
> However, using a star- i.e. a massive all-wavelength EMITTER, is a very bad
> comparison with a small masked target.  After all, the only part of the
> missile that will be seen is the 2m diameter ablative-foam "mushroom" shield
> on the tip.  While hardly very sophisticated, a very-low density foam will
> be a very, very good EMS shield.  At best, the shield will be a few
> fractions of a degree above ambient background radiation.  As for the fusion
> plume, which will be VERY visible with any passive sensor array, it is only
> on during the initial run in and last couple of seconds.  The use of
> compressed gas steering jets should be plenty sufficient for course
> corrections.

Afraid not. You are forgetting the velocities involved. The higher the
velocity the more powerful the "steering jet" has to be  to cause the
*same* course change (in terms of angle).

You have to be steering all the way in or else using *large* amounts of
power for those terminal course corrections.

A "compressed gas steering jet" is good for a vector change of *maybe*
200 m/sec. Add that to a forward vector of 100 km/sec, and you get a
vector change of arctan(200/100,000)= 6'53" or about 1/9th of a degree
course change.

Now consider that you are likely talking about missile velocities in
the *thousands* of km/sec, and you see why the corrections have to be
made continuously or else be made with the full power of the drive.

>      A note, when I designed this missile, I assumed it wasn't for use
> during pitched battles- basically, it was for use during ambushes and raids.
> Thus a main premise was the ability to gain high velocities unobserved, then
> use the energy generated for a "sneak" attack that is only obvious at the
> very last second.  A good example would be to "run it up" from behind, say a
> gas giant, and then run cold until almost at the target.  That's the reason
> for no active sensors.  Basically, passive sensors would be unlikely to
> detect it until such close range that reaction was impossible due to the
> short time till impact.

The problem is that for the scenario you just described, you have to be
able to determine the target's position an hour or more ahead of time.
That is, you've got to be able to aim the missile at a point it will
reach in an hour *and* have that point be quite close to the position
the target will have at that time. 

On *minor* course change and the target will pass by outside the
missile's intercept cone. 

You have to consider the *scale* involved. Hiding behind a gas giant
works, but it automatically makes the range many light seconds or more.

> Finally, I never though this would be a torpedo in space- it is simply too
> easy for an enemy aware of it to stop it.  OTOH, it certainly is a
> channelizing weapon- even a Tigress captain will think twice about getting
> hit by one.   I don't want to re-start the near-C rock wars, but one method
> I thought of was to have a carrier ship boost normal missiles to high
> relative velocities for attacks on predicatable targets- frontier refueling,
> anyone?

Alas, I've been thru this. The only targets "predictable" enough are
planets, asteroids and orbital stations. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:14:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

In mail you write:

> For those of you who care, I am told that if you go to 203 North Street in
> Normal Illinois, you will find the GDW Inc. sign still hanging from the
> supports between the sign for the screenprinting joint our offices were
> above, and the deli next door. It evidently confuses the incoming freshman
> gamers at ISU every year...

You mean you guys just *left* it there! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:34:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The "Fuzzy Sapiens" problem in the Imperium

In mail you write:

> Paul Schirf wrote:
>> 
>> Humorous Solution: The Imperial ambassador
>> orders transmitter enabled robotic Rubic's
>> Cubes to be airdropped...  They re-scramble
>> when solved... and if solved again within ten
>> minutes they signal the contact group.
>
> Alternately, if the puzzles are manipulated (not merely handled) for at
> least fifteen minutes, they signal the contact group....

I'd be more inclined to use Soma cubes. For those of you who haven't
encountered these time wasters, they are a bunch of pieces made up of
3-4 cubes each (sort of like tetris pieces, but in 3-D). They can be
assembled into cube 3 times the size of the cubes making up the pieces.
There are millions of ways of assembling them into a cube. There are
*trillions* of ways of assembling them so that they *can't* form a
cube. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:07:00 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: The Virtual TAS Lounge

Greetings!

A couple of years ago a few of us carved out a niche on undernet where
Travellers could go and chat the hours away about ship design and all
manner of things such as we discuss here on TML, except in a real-time
fashion.  We used to have regularly scheduled chat sessions and generally
it was a lot of fun. I thought it was time to remind everyone that it is
still there.

The channel is currently undergoing renovation. We're converting it into a
virtual TAS Lounge and it is open during construction.

Now, I have a problem. Every good lounge/bar type entity needs a really
good name and while I'm very happy to manage the place, I suspect many of
you can come up with really good bar names and probably already have for
the games you are in. So...

I'm inviting all patrons of #Traveller Undernet to wander by and give one
of the bartenders (ops) suggestions for names. Suggestions will be taken
until the end of April. If you can't catch a bartender online, email me
privately, please.  I'll try to post all new entries as soon as possible to
#Traveller Undernet's new website. Ok, that's under construction, too. Bear
with me, I'm working on it. 

http://home.att.net/~websuz/
 
And since we're converting to a bar/lounge atmosphere, I'm going to have to
have a stock menu of drinks from the Imperium to stock and train the
bartenders to make . I know we've been through this before (did anyone keep
a list?), but I'll make the topic of the week Drinks of the Imperium. Stop
by Wednesday or Thursday evening. I'll be along by 7pm Central (ouch, when
does DST change? I'm in AZ we don't go there...). Hint:  Whatever night
appears to be busiest, is probably when future chats will be scheduled.

Ok, I've blathered on long enough. See you on #Traveller Undernet!

Suz

Suz Dollar
http://home.att.net/~suzdollar/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:49:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Virtual TAS Lounge

At 05:07 PM 3/27/99 -0700, you wrote:

>A couple of years ago a few of us carved out a niche on undernet where
>Travellers could go and chat the hours away about ship design and all
>manner of things such as we discuss here on TML, except in a real-time
>fashion.  We used to have regularly scheduled chat sessions and generally
>it was a lot of fun. I thought it was time to remind everyone that it is
>still there.

Has it really been a couple of years?  gaaahh.. Time flies when you're
confused as hell...

>I'm inviting all patrons of #Traveller Undernet to wander by and give one
>of the bartenders (ops) suggestions for names. Suggestions will be taken
>until the end of April. If you can't catch a bartender online, email me
>privately, please.  I'll try to post all new entries as soon as possible to
>#Traveller Undernet's new website. Ok, that's under construction, too. Bear
>with me, I'm working on it. 

Ditzie's Bar and Fusion Grill

>Ok, I've blathered on long enough. See you on #Traveller Undernet!

I'm so there.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:44:10 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

Leonard Erickson posted:
> >>
> >>A kinetic kill missile *cannot* hit without active guidance. And *that*
> >>is what the laser can knock out.
> >
> > Ok, Leonard, you've caused a number of questions
> > to bubble out of my ignorant brain. :-)
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > If both of the above are true, why not let the
> > launching ship guide the missile to its target
> > and then allow the missile to home during the
> > terminal approach on the target?
> 
> Possibly. But you *then* have to deal with speed of light lag. The ship
> doing the controlling is seeing where the target (and the missile,
> incidentally!) was at some point in the past. If you are 5 hexes away,
> then you'll be looking at where the missile and target were .5 seconds
> ago, and your commands will take *another* .5 seconds to get there.
> 
> This makes steering *very* hard.

Sounds like missiles in any version of Traveller with a 6G limit and
non-nuclear pumped warheads are useless, assuming no handwaves.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:19:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #352

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: Anyone think there's a planet that's the Imperial equivalent of
> Ireland? Sending generation after generation of their best and brightest
> off-world because of problems at home? This would, of course, mjean that
> there would be some sort of equivalent to Guiness...

Do note that Ireland is attracting a *lot* of artists (and possibly
other skilled types) these days. Apparently they've deliberately set up
their tax laws to give such folks a break. They've realized that these
folks bring in lots of money to the local economy. Enough to more than
make up for the taxes lost. And they are "low impact" environmentally. 

That's why a lot of authors live in Ireland these days. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:23:33 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: kinetic kill

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: kinetic kill

>
>Barring the black globe option, it's set by the laws of thermodynamics. If
>a material is absorbing 1000 W/m2 of sunlight (which a black object will
be)
>it has to radiate 1000 W/m2 of heat at some infrared wavelengths. If it
>radiates less heat than that, it'll warm up until it does radiate this much
>heat. It's a fundamental consequence of the laws of thermodynamics.
>

AHA!  So, we develop a material that doesn't radiate heat until it reaches
an absurd temperature.  There will be many, many circumstances when the
fighting will be out past 1 AU or in the presence of a star weaker than Sol.
Even then, the missile only needs to take it for a limited period, and there
is no guarantee of the "warhead" being towards the sun

>Shuttle tile stuff mainly demonstrates that it's a good inulator - if one
>side is white-hot the other can still be cold - not that it won't absorb
>and reradiate heat. It'll do a good job of stopping heat generated inside
>the missile from getting out, or heat from outside from getting in, but
>the surface has to be radiating away the heat it's absorbing unless it's
>actively or passively refrigerated.
>
>

Anyway, passive EMS masking, per MT rules, blocks IR signature, wether from
internal or external sources.  For a vehicle this small, it's not really too
expensive.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:32:40 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
...
>>   I wonder how they justify that cost for their AD&D and Alternity output?
>
>Yep, you need about $100 to play an Alternity StarDrive campaign.  ($30
>players' book, $30 GM book, $30 sourcebook)   No thanks.

  Heck, even T4 was arguably playable with the main rules and M:0, and the
main book covered the same as the first 3 LBB's so you could arguably get
by with just a $25 US expenditure.

  For another comparison (albeit non-SF) Hoghead's "Warhamster Fantasy
RolePlay" book is entirely self-contained, and over 360 pages for about
$30 US. And that's _with_ excellent art.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:29:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

In mail you write:

> Now, you could play games with (say) a general 1cm hull, and a thicker
> 'citadel' along the central fuselage that holds the pilot, weapons, power
> plant etc, but it could be ugly to have a penetrating laser hit on your
> wing at high speed.

Which is essentially the case with the A-10. The pilot sits in a
titanium "bathtub". Pilots *like* being protected.

>>Also the aero fighter can be designed for greater in atmosphere speed than
>>the space fighter.  High speed in the atmosphere requires special design of
>>the buffeting and turbulence will tear the craft apart.

Not entirely true. For example, airships get torn apart by weather that
a jet fighter can fly thru unharmed (though the jet pilot would rather
*not* fly thru it!)

Likewise, craft that *don't* need wings for lift can get by with
"stubby" airfoils to aid in steering. That allows them to be even
*more* compact, and thus much stronger. 

A properly designed aerospace fighter (pure rocket/thruster or thruster
& CG) will likely be a hypersonic needle with stubby fins so it can use
the air to help it turn. It'll be able to endure conditions that'd rip
a aerodyne[1] to shreds.

> The problem is high accuracy speed-of-light weapons (lasers, PAWs, Meson
> Guns) make atmospheric speeds irrelevant.
>
> They see you. Weapon fires. It hits.
>
> Given this, the only things that saves you are armour, and not being seen.

But things like clouds help a *lot* by dispersing laser fire and
interfering with sensors.

> Thus, the either 'Happy Fun Ball' or the 'Be vewwwy qwiet we're hunting
> wabbits' <1> design concepts.

I suspect that due to airflow considerations, a "happy fun ball" will
be *at least* an oblate spheroid (take a ellipse and spin it around the
short axis). Possibly even a "lens" type shape. Sharp leading and
trailing edge for better supersonic airflow, but the radial symmetry
allows it to pin around a vertical axis without affecting airflow much.

So this thing that looks like a classic "flying saucer" goes zipping by
at *high* speed, and has its main gun firing at you the whole time!
Heck, the "slow spin" even brings the main drive around to decelerate
you to make the next pass!

I can even see some slight changes giving such a shape the ability to
make a steep glide if it loses the main drive. 

>>That was what I was discussing, sorry.  I reread the post but as I
>>understand it it the space fighter verse athmospheric fighter with all other
>>things being equal.  I have said this several times.
>
> My feeling is they'll both be Happy Fun Balls, but post up some optimised
> airframe designs for us to kick the tyres of.

Well, I don't have a set of design rules more recent than High Guard,
so I can't do it. But I think the "saucer" and the "finned needle" are
both worth checking out. 

>>And nearly useless.  Space and atmosphere are two very different
>>enviroments.  In space you get 1000k temperture changes from light to dark.
>>In the atmosphere you have wind shear that can pancake a 747.  A sea gull
>>will total an SR71.  Think about a 3 pound object moving at a relative
>>velocity greater than a rifle bullet.  One small hole in the ships skin lets
>>in winds with the power of a tornado.
>
> To me, this says armour up and slow down.
>
> Thus, the Happy Fun Ball, or the grav tank.

Actually, you won't run into even *rain* if you are up in the
stratosphere. And birds are rarely found much above 10-20 thousand
feet. :-)

BTW, the SR-71 isn't a bad choice as a starting point for a very high
speed, high altitude fighter. Just consider what it would look like if
those *huge* engines were replaced with something inside the main body
(thruster plates). The delta wing would get even smaller because the
engines wouldn't be screwing up the airflow. And gee, you wind up with
something approaching my "finned needle". 

For that matter, can one of you gearheads figure out how powerful a
fusion plant you can cram into the space those engines take up? Pity we
don't have design rules that'd allow for "fusion heated air" as an
engine type. But I bet the thing would still have performance that'd
have the boys at the Skunk Works drooling. 

> The other thing to stick in the back of your mind is Gravitic and Neutrino
> Sensors. Many of Ditzie's projects are based on the assumption that use of
> fusion, fusion+ and contragravity can be detected outside line of sight
> ranges.

If I was a relatively poor planet, I'd build *fast* missiles with CG
homing capability. Say something like the old Sprint anti-missile
system. 200g for 5-10 seconds will put the missile 25-100 km up, moving
at 10-20 km/sec. 

Most Traveller weapons aren't geared for stuff moving that fast.
There's a *damn* good chance that a Sprint could take out anything
withing range (especially if they have nuclear warheads). 

And the old HAARP program had test vehicles with *thousand* g
acceleration. Sure, the endurance is lousy. But they'll be deadly if
you are in atmosphere or low orbit. 

And this is all 1960s technology!

[1] aerodyne: aircraft relying on aerodynamic forces for lift as
opposed to aerostats which rely on static forces (bouyancy) for lift. 

So, basicly aerostat=balloon/dirigible. Aerodyne=most other current
aircraft. 

Traveller has CG aircraft and aircraft that stay aloft by virtue of
pure thrust.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #359
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 28 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 360



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[OT] Re: The Virtual TAS Lounge
Re: Far Trader : Pictures and lost friends
Re: The Virtual TAS Lounge
Re: The Virtual TAS Lounge
Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)
Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346
Re : Future Psychology and Psychiatry, and 'What Is A Sophont'?
Re : Animal power
Re: Missiles
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Lite edition of rules?  was [TML] Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:19:54 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: The Virtual TAS Lounge

Suz Dollar wrote:

> The channel is currently undergoing renovation. We're converting it into a
> virtual TAS Lounge and it is open during construction.

If you want to make it really cool, you could try actually talking
to each other using <Shameless Plug> Roger Wilco.
Its free.  Its real time voice.  Its server-less.  Its unlimited users.
</Shameless Plug>
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:02:27 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Far Trader : Pictures and lost friends

"Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
 asks:


>On page 119 of Far Trader: Where did that ship design come 

>from?

 That is the Type M Subsidized Liner. Its original appearances
are three: CT Adventure 13 (Signal GK), FASAs Adventure Class
Ships Vol 2, and Battlestar Galactica (as a member of the "ragtag
fleet").

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:23:48 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: The Virtual TAS Lounge

>Ditzie's Bar and Fusion Grill

>Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
>
>TML Great Old One
>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



ROFLMHO!!!!  Damn good thing I'd set my beer down first!!  That would've
been a major SPLORK!!  :D  Make a great t-shirt ('cept for the fact she's a
minor).

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:13:51 -0600
From: meow@advancenet.net
Subject: Re: The Virtual TAS Lounge

As one of the ops, and a regular on the undernet version of 
Callahans Crosstime Saloon. I will be there pretty much every night
and If not, somebody on #callahans can pass on a message.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:21:35 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)

In a message dated 3/27/99 11:37:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:

<< Well, it could be intelligently designed (though the one in BL wasn't- no
MFD.
 too much for the pilot to do, etc) and it's just the artwork that bites.
It's
 usually drawn looking like a big missile with some canard-looking things
 rather than actual "wings."  IIRC, they're said to be retractable, too.   >>

That's because CANON created the Rampart with that shape (see the cover of
5th. FFW), and it's stayed that way since...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:28:09 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

In a message dated 3/27/99 12:10:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dreamer@brokersys.com writes:

<< This is a great system, and we have a large library.  No body is hurt
monetarily
 ($80 bucks a year, spread out over three month periods, is nothing).  And,
our
 game continues with everything we could want--all of us having a blast.
 
 I recommend this if you are not already playing this way. >>

works for FRIENDS only. Usually there will be the usual nonsense over a fight
over nothing (this couldn't happen on the TML...) and then it's who gets the
books?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:46:10 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters
...
>For that matter, can one of you gearheads figure out how powerful a
>fusion plant you can cram into the space those engines take up? Pity we
>don't have design rules that'd allow for "fusion heated air" as an
>engine type. But I bet the thing would still have performance that'd
>have the boys at the Skunk Works drooling. 

  The Striker box covers that - an aircraft with fusion plant, rocket
propulsion method. It's a great way around a rockets huge fuel intake
multiplier, but the cost gets something fierce.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:47:08 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles

>From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
>Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
...
>Sounds like missiles in any version of Traveller with a 6G limit and
>non-nuclear pumped warheads are useless, assuming no handwaves.

  IIRC, the conclusion on Trav-Tech (and the consensus on SF-CONSIM) is
that the more realistic the technology the less useful contact or close-
proximity warheads are against defended targets. Given that most Traveller
simply isn't space opera it becomes difficult to maintain the original B:2
premise of contact missiles; of course, GDW itself made great efforts 
later on in aid of finding more supportable roles for missiles in Trav.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:28:30 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

In TML 258 AveNelso@aol.com wrote,

>In a message dated 3/27/99 2:54:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>rfields@actrix.gen.nz writes:
>
><< Who are manipulating sections of the higher educated labour pool by
>modifying the cost >of specific education paths to encourage/discourage
>entry >>
>
 >       Sounds good, could you convince the US government to quadruple the
cost of
>Law School and half the cost of Engineering school?
>
[warning - drastic over simplification and only one future projection]

Sadly it's too easy to begin. Convince the US government to (turn a buck)
premptively meet market forces. It wont take some number cruncher long to
decide that since law is a paying career compared to a structural
engineering that you can charge more tuition fees to law students than to
engineers.

The smart bit is where you (the government) offer these real hoopy student
loans to everyone, that way you've got an indentured work force. (All
except those in well paying careers who can pay them off.)

In the short term (0-20 years) this isn't expected to work. The hard bit is
to get government to tweak this in the name of equity (roman law as opposed
to justice- English law) to have the over filled professions subsidise
under represented professions. This is contrary to the concept of free
market forces which we started with. But we do have a large body of
saleable debit, aka student loans. By selling this debit to those companies
that need the specifically education workers, there is a demand for e.g.
Engineers.

In the medium term (20-40 years), if we go down the path of selling
marketable debits and receiving return on high paying professions we will
have an economy that can afford to permit non-core/uneconomic occupations.
This is how: once lone viable professions have paid their life style
debits, established permanent relationships, and form stable life paths
they have excess income which can be spent on the non productive or
tertiary economy. At the same time previously indentured/indebted
professions are coming on line for stable payment of lifestyle debits etc.
This ensures that the lifestyle e.g. mortgage departments of banks retain
business rather than suffer generational surges.

In the long term (40-60 years) the productive sectors are sufficiently able
to support an appropriately sized non productive sector e.g. artists,
philosophers, game designers etc. Such are the joys of market forces, if
government is able to retain a single path of economic strategy.

In this projection I have used 20 year spans to indicate a workers
productive half life (from initial training to full trade proficiency). And
have only used one factor for control of modifying choice of profession.
Other options include the possibility of directly closing enrolment rolls
for some higher education institutions, or deliberately allowing an over
abundance of glamorous professionals with a dearth of competent personnel
in other areas. As noted by Pournelle & Heinlien (1979) in the USA with
Engineers. The greatest down falls are in human cost and ability of a
government to keep a course of action long enough to work (or fail).

Related Trav Seniero Nugget:
Not too far from the Starport one of your crew are met in a Coffee Lounge
by a potential patron. She wants her children (young adults) taken off
planet. She claims they are college students about to graduate who are then
to be sold at auction to any company that will take them. In an extended
conversation she explains the selling of education indentures, a form of
legal slavery. She also gives the players brochures and a long set of
costings (just in case anyone asks).

If the players check the planetary government do sell education, extensive
medical care, contract out expertise, etc. This all keeps the tax rate
acceptably low, almost on par with Imperium average.

Should they accept she can pay them with a mixture of mediocre jewellery,
local currency and trade data (useful to a trader using the skill 'Trader'
per Book 7 Merchant Prince pages 30-31) for a temporary insight (50 day/
+2) for shipments to this world. The twins are both 22 years old, must be
smuggled onto the starport, not too hard for a group of hardened players to
get two people through a customs border is it. Get them to another world,
for niceness setup in some sort of work and new identities.

Should they ever come back, up the local law level interest in them for the
sake of tension. They may look up their patron, sadly she died in an auto
accident (subtext suicide) shortly after the disappearance of her two
youngest children. Surviving relatives are uncontactable.

** Not bright a future sinario, probably not good traveller, but a
reflection on the above governmental approach.

Anyone else like to offer an alternative governmental approach and
consequential sinario?



Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:38:25 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Future Psychology and Psychiatry, and 'What Is A Sophont'?

Recent events on the TML have prompted a discussion on 'psychology' in
the worlds of Traveller. Some comments follow.

* Psychology is that science dealing with the way the mind works. It
includes in its ambit theories of personality development, social
interaction, etc.

Clinical psychology attempts to use some of the more useful ideas in the
treatment of mental illness e.g. cognitive-behavioural therapies for
anxiety and obsessive-compulsive disorders can trace their ancestry back
to Skinnerian concepts of conditioning.

* Psychiatry is that branch of medicine dealing with the diagnosis and
treatment of mental illness. It currently lacks a unifying theoretical
foundation because of our ignorance of how brain function (at the
cellular level) eventually leads to (dys)functioning individuals.
Like most of medicine, it has an empirical basis, much of which is in
flux at this time with developments in physiology and therapeutics.

Ob Trav : With further technological advancements, the molecular bases
of conditions such as depression and schizophrenia are elaborated.
Increasingly selective pharmaceuticals are combined with environmental
and behavioural therapies wherever possible.

New disorders appear (jump psychosis? post low berth revival delirium?)
while others disappear, with appropriate changes in cultural mores as
well as 'professional challenges' as to the disease entity's existence.

['Drapetomania' - the morbid condition where a slave would keep trying
to escape his/her master's property - was a recognised medical diagnosis
in the pre Civil War United States].  

In the Imperium, many of the most advanced techniques (e.g. memory
reading) are either too sophisticated or forbidden because of their
similarity to psionic powers.

* When Is A Creature A Sophont?
Quick criteria :-
i. Creature Factors : adults are large enough to have a brain weighing
at least 900 grams, or have enough cells/synapses (10^11 neurons in
average human brain with 1000X as many synapses). The obvious exception
is hive type organisms ;
ii. Artefacts :- language, tool use, art, other environmental
modification (e.g. buildings, agriculture).

Comments and constructive criticism welcome.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:38:42 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Animal power

Leonard Erickson, commenting on Kenji Schwartz's recent 'muscle fetish'
(for which I must take some small responsibility), mentioned the
electric eel as a bio-battery, or a source for bio-electric power
sources.

The electric organs of the eel and some other fishes are modified muscle
and nerve tissue. Impulses are transient potential differences generated
by the establishment of an ion gradient across the cell membrane. This
requires energy provided by the aerobic respiration of glucose and other
substrates, in the form of ATP (adenosine triphosphate).

The eel, as mentioned by Leonard, can discharge enough electrical energy
to cause a horse to undergo cardiac arrest. This would be in the
neighbourhood of 300-400J of energy.

Aside : Defibrillators in clinical use have a maximum discharge energy
of 360J. As little as 50J can be useful in restoring normal (sinus)
rhythm.

Ob Trav : Entire electric organ cells would be required at a minimum for
your hypothetical battery, immersed in an appropriate oxygen, nutrient
and waste removing solution.

Aside : Some fish use weak electric fields for sensing purposes.
Apparently some sharks can sense other fish, etc. via the ampullae of
Lorenzini (spelling check?!) in the front of their heads with this
method.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:22:15 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Missiles

>From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
>Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
>
>Sounds like missiles in any version of Traveller with a 6G limit and
>non-nuclear pumped warheads are useless, assuming no handwaves.

Well, missiles dont have a 6G limit. They do have a limit, but it's higher
than 6 gees.

You can do a fairly neat small x-ray laser, but basically, yeah, missiles
are very much a secondary weapon system, suitable for use by and against
civilians and auxilaries.

>AHA!  So, we develop a material that doesn't radiate heat until it reaches
>an absurd temperature. 

Thats a big technology handwave. Right up there with contragravity, nuke
dampers and jump drives. You are talking about messing with thermodynamics.

>There will be many, many circumstances when the
>fighting will be out past 1 AU or in the presence of a star weaker than Sol.
>Even then, the missile only needs to take it for a limited period, and there
>is no guarantee of the "warhead" being towards the sun

The other major problem is the enemy having active sensors turned on. Me, I
believe in full tanks, firepower and active sensors, so I suspect that the
missile wont get to contact range intact.

>Anyway, passive EMS masking, per MT rules, blocks IR signature, wether from
>internal or external sources.  For a vehicle this small, it's not really too
>expensive.

Sorry, you cant do it. Thermodynamics means you cant block IR signature per
se, merely point it in other directions. Which is usually good enough.

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters
>
>Which is essentially the case with the A-10. The pilot sits in a
>titanium "bathtub". Pilots *like* being protected.
>

The A-10 is much, much closer to the grav tank in design philosophy than to
any 'fighter', being designed to stay low and slow and hide behind things
whenever possible.

>A properly designed aerospace fighter (pure rocket/thruster or thruster
>& CG) will likely be a hypersonic needle with stubby fins so it can use
>the air to help it turn. It'll be able to endure conditions that'd rip
>a aerodyne[1] to shreds.

But it still cant take damage. It's paying too much surface area to get
that configuration. And for what ? Speed ? Speed is tactically useless once
lasers and PAWs come along.

>
>> The problem is high accuracy speed-of-light weapons (lasers, PAWs, Meson
>> Guns) make atmospheric speeds irrelevant.
>>
>> They see you. Weapon fires. It hits.
>>
>> Given this, the only things that saves you are armour, and not being seen.
>
>But things like clouds help a *lot* by dispersing laser fire and
>interfering with sensors.

*shrug* So use PAWs. In any case, point defense lasers end the era of the
missile.

In any case, how much would cloud disperse a (say) 100 megajoule laser ?

>
>> Thus, the either 'Happy Fun Ball' or the 'Be vewwwy qwiet we're hunting
>> wabbits' <1> design concepts.
>
>I suspect that due to airflow considerations, a "happy fun ball" will
>be *at least* an oblate spheroid (take a ellipse and spin it around the
>short axis). Possibly even a "lens" type shape. Sharp leading and
>trailing edge for better supersonic airflow, but the radial symmetry
>allows it to pin around a vertical axis without affecting airflow much.

OK, so a streamlined Happy Fun Ball gets the teardrop treatment.

But the basic question is when you have very, very fast weapons that go out
to line-of-sight, why is speed important ?

>> To me, this says armour up and slow down.
>>
>> Thus, the Happy Fun Ball, or the grav tank.
>
>Actually, you won't run into even *rain* if you are up in the
>stratosphere. And birds are rarely found much above 10-20 thousand
>feet. :-)

I was more worrying about lead, lasers, plasma, PAW beams and all the other
stuff that reduces your aerodynamic profile when it hits you.

Although I expect the Sayat have an elite Seagull Battallion to go with the
Weasel Guns.

>For that matter, can one of you gearheads figure out how powerful a
>fusion plant you can cram into the space those engines take up? Pity we
>don't have design rules that'd allow for "fusion heated air" as an
>engine type. But I bet the thing would still have performance that'd
>have the boys at the Skunk Works drooling. 

Fusion plant ? Not until about TL12 can you put em in anything smaller than
200 m3. In any case, I'd say fusion heated air is pretty close to Heplar in
design

>If I was a relatively poor planet, I'd build *fast* missiles with CG
>homing capability. Say something like the old Sprint anti-missile
>system. 200g for 5-10 seconds will put the missile 25-100 km up, moving
>at 10-20 km/sec. 
>

Leonard, I have *very* serious doubts about Sprint having the performance
you quote.

Frankly, I think you are reading reports people wanted to be true, and
modified for congressional consumption.

That sort of acceleration is just too useful for high-level interceptor
missiles and so on, and those missiles just didnt happen.

>Most Traveller weapons aren't geared for stuff moving that fast.

They will be if they are designed for counter-insurgency or planetary
intervention roles.

Personally, I think they'd get picked off by lasers and so on, if they were
being shot at ships who were aware of the fact that these weapon systems
existed.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:23:25 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

>> The problem is high accuracy speed-of-light weapons (lasers, PAWs, Meson
>> Guns) make atmospheric speeds irrelevant.
>>
>> They see you. Weapon fires. It hits.
>>
>> Given this, the only things that saves you are armour, and not being seen.
>
>But things like clouds help a *lot* by dispersing laser fire and
>interfering with sensors.

As does active ECM, chaff, etc.

>> Thus, the either 'Happy Fun Ball' or the 'Be vewwwy qwiet we're hunting
>> wabbits' <1> design concepts.
>
>I suspect that due to airflow considerations, a "happy fun ball" will
>be *at least* an oblate spheroid (take a ellipse and spin it around the
>short axis). Possibly even a "lens" type shape. Sharp leading and
>trailing edge for better supersonic airflow, but the radial symmetry
>allows it to pin around a vertical axis without affecting airflow much.

Definitely. Balls heat up too much at high speed.

>So this thing that looks like a classic "flying saucer" goes zipping by
>at *high* speed, and has its main gun firing at you the whole time!
>Heck, the "slow spin" even brings the main drive around to decelerate
>you to make the next pass!

I like that. Armed frisbees !

>I can even see some slight changes giving such a shape the ability to
>make a steep glide if it loses the main drive.

Have you seen what one can do with a frisbee ? Doesn't need to
be a steep glide.

>>>That was what I was discussing, sorry.  I reread the post but as I
>>>understand it it the space fighter verse athmospheric fighter with all
other
>>>things being equal.  I have said this several times.
>>
>> My feeling is they'll both be Happy Fun Balls, but post up some optimised
>> airframe designs for us to kick the tyres of.
>
>Well, I don't have a set of design rules more recent than High Guard,
>so I can't do it. But I think the "saucer" and the "finned needle" are
>both worth checking out.

I'd agree that in the real world both shouild be far better than balls unless
they are so overpowered and shielded  they can completely ignore the presence
of atmosphere, in which case there is no need
for any difference betwen aerospace and space fighters

Then again, given the neccessary overpowering to make balls effective in
atmoshere,  just about _any_ shape could be effective, so the shape of
fighters would depend more on aesthetics than engineering.

The "utilitarians" would go round saying how beautiful and functional their
balls looked, and the "freudians" would go round saying how manly and
penetrating their needles looked, and engineering performance wouldn't enter
into the decision.

<snip>

>And the old HAARP program had test vehicles with *thousand* g
>acceleration. Sure, the endurance is lousy. But they'll be deadly if
>you are in atmosphere or low orbit.
>
>And this is all 1960s technology!

Exactly.

I've always liked giving Travellers surprises with an old technology taken to
it's max, which is what will happen with continual refinement and no
innovation, such as would be expected on Vilani worlds.

For instance. Anyone remember the "loiter" bombs of  World War Two ?

Attach a proximity fused bomb to a helium balloon on the end of a several
hundred foot string . Let if float around in a war zone. Sooner or later a
plane will come along and hit the string, the balloon drags back behind the
plane, thus pulling the bomb into contact with the plane....

<snip>
>Traveller has CG aircraft and aircraft that stay aloft by virtue of
>pure thrust.

So does the real world. Two examples are the BAE Electric Lightning and the
F18
Both can / could do Mach1 straight up.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:00:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Lite edition of rules?  was [TML] Re: Just Detected: GT 2d printing

Steven Hudson wrote (on the TML):

>  FWIW, I was browsing recently and couldn't help but notice that a shrink-
>wrapped WoTC/TSR stapled pamphlet (aka "adventure") retails for almost as
>much as the smaller SJG books; as the bigger SJG products are even better
>deals that pricing comparison hardly bears thinking about.

What is interesting is that I saw a 'lite' version of the alternity core
rules at a TSR/WoTC stand at a recent event.

We need a 'free' T5 lite - it's been said before, but it's be a key way to
start to get people warmed up for a full release.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:07:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:

>Actually, IIRC, the ideal (as in least-drag) shape for an object travelling
>through a fluid, is a teardrop, going rounded-end forward.  That's why
>Lensmen ships were that shape....

That's why I suggested a sphere, as it would give you a shape approximating
a tear drop which could change in any direction a short notice. I envisaged
control panel surfaces which extended as needed to turn faster.

Dom

PS the X-Boat is a teardrop...

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:12:02 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>Hmm...  You're right.  How do these antigrav "modules" behave?  Just by the
>wording, it would imply it acts like CG.  I don't see anything in the SoM...

There doesn't appear to be a canon description, except that an air raft
needs 4 modules.

By the fact it's used by the Rampart and airrafts I would assume it is a
cross between CG and T-plates.

When I think design rules/framework I tend to think MT/T4. TNE comes close
enough to both...

>> You'd better agree design systems, because I think you're talking either:
>>
>> CT with HG and Striker.
>> MT with COACC
>> FFS1
>> or
>> FFS2
>
>Naturally, I'm most proficient with and prefer FF&S1.  I can manage MT &
>COACC, though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I try.  I have FFS2
>but have never used it for anything other than data mining for TNE.

Charles appears to be using HG and CT as his references.


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:30:41 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #346

Quick question, am I correct in assuming that you're the same Richard Fields,
sometimes referred to as Ernie, ex-RNZAF, who introduced my wife to Traveller
in Wigram back in 1981 or thereabouts ?

>>This is nothing new as well. Way back in 1979 Jerr Pournelle and Robert
>>Heinlien were bemoaning the lack of engineerig graduates coming out of US
>>colleges, and predicting that the US would have to import it's engineers
>>in future. With Jerry and >Robert's patriotism, they actually tried to
>>prevent such articles getting to overseas locations back >then !
>
>Again while I appriciate thre point, but my current experience is at odds
>with you here

You can find technical staff ? Where?
<grin>

> By your admission Pournelle & Heinlien (1979) bemoned the
>lack of forsight or intelegence of leaders in failing to ensuer an adiquate
>pool of suitably educated labour.

Yep. Thing is no-one did anything about it at the time, so now the US _does_
have the lack they predicted.

I fully agree with those who posted saying basically that this is the fault of
corporations not willing to invest in training, but laying blame doesn't fix
the problem, and preventing immigration won't force companies to train the
staff they need, it will just force them to move operations offshore. What's
needed is targetted intervention by government, something Clinton has actually
been trying to do, but as the concept of Federal government interfering in
that sort of thing raises the hackles of State legislatures, it 's hard to do.

>We can see this in Real Life (tm) with
>the ministrations of Bax Bradford (NZ Minister of Tertiary Education),
>prevoiusly Wyatt Creech (NZ Minister of  Education). Who are manipulating
>sections of the higher educationed labour pool by modifying the cost of
>specific education paths to encourage/discourage entry. These are directly
>related to anticipated earnings once in the work force not to projected
>workforce vacancies.

I don't agree with that. NZ Government training funding is not related to
anticpated earning, but to actual costs of funding the training.

They are only funding to a certain level of costs for _all_ courses, what this
does is make the individual institutions _either_ increase prices in paths
where training expense are high (which is what Otago U does) ,  _or_
subsidize the high cost courses by charging all students basically a flat fee
that may be slightly higher than it would have been if they charged actual
costs ( which is what Canterbury U used to do, I don't know if it still
does. )

However, it just so happens that some high earning professions (dentistry for
example) have high costs.

On the other hand computer science, electrical engineering, or law, don't have
as high training costs as the medical courses, but often have as high, or
higher, earnings.

Thus, as a result, students wishing to maximize their return willl choose law
over dentistry, and won't even consider arts.

You can assume this was intentional, but I don't credit our government with
that much intelligence,
IMO they charged fees merely to reduce their costs, and didn't think about the
consequences

For the non-New Zealanders amongst us, New Zealand tertiary education up to
about 1989 was essentially free, tuituion fees were about $500 NZ ($250 US) a
year plus around $200 a year for text books.  Subsidies were cut in about
1990, and students were charged around $2000 a year for a full time course,
and offered loans to pay for this. The government then steadily reduced the
subsidies to a small percentage of the course's actual cost.

We still pay less  ( I think? )than equivalent training in the US, but to gain
a dentistry degree one will owe, if unable to pay cash, upwards of $150,000
(again $75,000 US )in student loans.when you get your PhD

So, you in the US will probably wonder what we're complaining about
<grin>

>This results in very compedative if well paid sectors of an ecomomy and
>underpaid and undertrained sectors with significant dissafected labour
>turnover.

>Trav Obs:
>In a command economy it is possible to allocate a given number of education
>slots to given career paths. Within the Third Imperium the restraints on
>educated labour are relatively few. To maimtain that pool of educated
>labour in the face of vacancies in another economy requires intellegence or
>dictitioral methods.

Only if you assume market forces don't work. While it's not very nice for
individuals, I suspect that soon there'll be a glut in the areas where there
is demand, as people try to maximize their returns by training in areas where
there is demand, and other areas will become depleted

>In the case of high law level systems this can be used to help explain the
>restriction on travel. Educated labour might not be owned but contracted
>and indentured, with uneducated population being more able to travel if
>only the could afford it.

Useful adventure hook that. Mercenaries hired by a mega-corp to extract
indentured labour of great economical value to hiring company.

Frankie

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #360
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 28 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 361



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier vargr...
Re: New Sulieman shots up
Brain Wave/Computer Interface
Sea Launch a success!
Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Valid Ship Design Systems for T4
Re: Apropos of Nothing
Re:  Lite edition of rules?  
Re: Far Trader : Pictures and lost friends
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: max accel
Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)
Off-Topic: B5 Premiers in June!
IgNoble Etiquette
Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier vargr...
Re: Garbage
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)
Re: max accel
Re: Missiles
Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)
Re: Merchants

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 06:06:22 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier vargr...

>AKUS PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS!!!!!

Looked and laughed and spewed.  Do any of you have any idea just how many
times I've felt like Florence? 

<gd&r>

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 06:51:38 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: New Sulieman shots up

>I'll see what I can do.  My eventual plan for the gallery portion is to have
>several different sizes/resolutions/compressions available, so if you're
>internet connection is a nice fat pipe, you can download a 1280x1024 at 100%
>if you want to.  Not recommended for less than 56k :)  Right now I don't
>have the time to set that up, but when I do I'll send a message to the TML.
>
>Best,
>Jesse

Ok, its official. I hate walking in on the middle of conversations.  I
missed the URL for this trove of treasures, too... Would someone please be
so kind as to forward it to me via private email? 

Thank you in advance!

Suz
http://home.att.net/~suzdollar/
http://home.att.net/~websuz/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:39:17 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Brain Wave/Computer Interface

Folks, the human brain/computer interface is pretty much
a reality now and another technological wonder which
appeared in Traveller has come true. ABC has posted
the following:

- -- quote --

Paralyzed Patients Use Special Computers 

L O N D O N,   March 24  Severely paralysed patients
can now communicate by using brain waves to write
messages on a computer screen, German psychologists
said today. 

The new system, developed by scientists at the University
of Tubingen in Germany, gives a new lifeline to locked in
patients who have no muscle control and cannot communicate.
Using brain waves called slow cortical potentials
displayed on a computer screen, the patients can see their
brain activity and learn to control it.

- -- endquote --

It's crude but it's fast becoming an accepted method for
dealing with complete paralysis. For the complete story,
go to: http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/
and select the "Using Brain Waves to Talk" link near the
bottom of the page.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:50:38 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Sea Launch a success!

I almost forgot!

The first equatorial launch of an orbital package from an
ocean-based mobile platform was made successfully yesterday
from a location 1400 miles (uh, about 2330 km.) south of
Hawaii.

For details, go to:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/

BTW, if anyone finds these posts annoying, let me know and
I'll stop. I just think it's so cool to have aspects of
Traveller become real and even exceeded in our lifetimes.

Be well.

David Smart

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:27:56 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface

Hold on a second.  When did brain-machine interfaces appear in Traveller? 
They're not part of any milieu I'm familiar with.

This isn't a criticism, just a question.  I always got the impression that
Traveller had always avoided this sort of thing as too cyberpunkish.

(BTW: I enjoy these little factoids, since I seldom have time to hunt them
down on my own.)
- ----------
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Brain Wave/Computer Interface
Date: Sunday, 28 March, 1999 10:39 AM

Folks, the human brain/computer interface is pretty much
a reality now and another technological wonder which
appeared in Traveller has come true. ABC has posted
the following:

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:50:28 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

At 07:23 PM 26/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all.  
>
>My GF just recently tried gaming for the first time, and she quite enjoyed
>herself!  We're definately not talking about a person you would normally
>see around a gaming table here, so I'm pretty happy with the result. I'm
>hoping this good first impression will be the start of something.

        [Good suggestions, snipped]

>So, does anyone have anything to add to this advice?  Any other similar
>experiences to report?
>
>Charles C.
>

        I went one step further with my lady friend...  I organized a
"Ladies game" of AD&D with some other female friends of mine who gamed
periodically and that went over *very* well...  everyone played archetypal
characters and it was a high-fantasy setting (in other words, extreme
technical knoweldge of "Real World(tm)" triva was not a factor".  We played
several sessions of just stomping through the woods before even getting to
the ruins they wanted to explore, and I tailored the outside encounters to
be more role-playing vehicles than combat opportunites.  For the exploration
of the ruins, I focused on atmosphere and color, and everyone had a grand time.
        In point of fact, while the combats were brutal (in keeping with my
experience to date that women gamers are much more ruthless than men), it
was a refreshing change for me as DM to have a group not focussing on how
big the sword was or how ugly a trap they could spring on a monster.  It was
a wonderfully interesting game from start to finish.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:04:35 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4

Just out of curiosity, do those of you who play T4 consider the QSDS and
SSDS to be valid ship design systems (since they produce ships in
variance with FF&S2)  I did some SSDS designs using the Akins
spreadsheet, and want to know whether they would be worth posting to my
site and/or the TML.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:55:01 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Apropos of Nothing

At 10:56 am 3/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Moody, Danny M. wrote:
>> 
>
>> >
>> > Is it detachable?  If so, someone needs to go retrieve the
thing, and
>> > preserve it for future generations.  I don't live in the Midwest
anymore,
>> > or
>> > I'd do it myself.
>> >
>> > John
>> 
>> Who actually owns the sign?  I live in St Louis, and would be
willing to zip
>> up their and 'liberate' it.
>> 
>> Who's permission do I need to get?
>
>
>Lordy, spoken like a true PC...first thought that pops into head:
>"Hmmm...is it nailed down???"

	Yeah, but how many PCs would think to ask permission?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:13:47 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re:  Lite edition of rules?  

- ----- Original Message -----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>:
: We need a 'free' T5 lite - it's been said before, but it's be a key
way to
: start to get people warmed up for a full release.

But wasn't GURPS Lite and this lite version that you saw both published
later, after the rule books were released, in fact to support later
products?  We have many different versions of Traveller rules in print
already.  I should think that a lite version of the _milieu_ would be
more effective at drumming up interest.  Heck, for that matter, a novel
released ahead of the game might be even better. <blinkblink> (. o O
What in the world did I just say?)


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:18:56 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader : Pictures and lost friends

> >On page 119 of Far Trader: Where did that ship design come 
> >from?
> 
>  That is the Type M Subsidized Liner. Its original appearances
> are three: CT Adventure 13 (Signal GK), FASAs Adventure Class
> Ships Vol 2, and Battlestar Galactica (as a member of the "ragtag
> fleet").
> 
> GypsyComet

After I sent the email, I went back and looked at his old picture (I still 
had it buried in a bunch of old gaming material).  It didn't look like it 
too much after all.  I guess the design was just something I 
remembered seeing from somewhere else. Now I know it was.  

Guess I've had my head up my butt for the last couple of days.

Oh, well.  One of those weeks.  Thanks for the response.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:22:53 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

: Michel R. Vaillancourt posed -
:         In point of fact, while the combats were brutal (in keeping
with my
: experience to date that women gamers are much more ruthless than men)

Women seem more likely to seek instant neutralization of threats,
whereas men seem to enjoy the sport of the hunt.  Also, I note with
interest that there seem to be many more women deer hunters than women
bird hunters.  They seem to prefer big game or nothing at all.


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:56:02 +0000
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

> From:          TravelrTNE@aol.com
> Date:          Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:33:39 EST
> 
> Hmm...  You're right.  How do these antigrav "modules" behave?  Just by the
> wording, it would imply it acts like CG.  I don't see anything in the SoM...

CT/Striker/MT: they provide reactionless thrust similar to thrusters, 
but can be installed in smaller vehicles, and lose efficiency once 
they are a certain distance away from a gravity source (MT).  The 
vehicle needs 1g of acceleration (in a 1g field) to hover; excess 
gees are used for maneuvering.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.paralynx.com/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:25:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)

On 28 Mar, <Sethkimmel@aol.com> wrote:
> That's because CANON created the Rampart with that shape
> (see the cover of 5th. FFW), and it's stayed that way since...

Okay, I've had a look at FFW.

I agree, those stubby wing things aren't as big as the wings of
an F15, they look much more like the size of its tail fins.
There don't appear to be any elevators, so they must rotate the
whole aerodynamic surface.

So that should mean that the rampart is at least as manoeuvrable
in atmosphere as a modern fighter, even without using its superior
engines.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:45:59 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Off-Topic: B5 Premiers in June!

CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!

             CRUSADE, the highly anticipated new series from the
             creators of the Emmy Award- and Hugo Award-winning
             series Babylon 5, will premiere on TNT on Wednesday,
             June 9 at 10 pm ET/PT. Gary Cole, Tracy Scoggins,
             Daniel Dae Kim, David A. Brooks, Marjean Holden, Carrie
             Dobro and Peter Woodward will head the cast of
             CRUSADE. Douglas Netter and series creator J. Michael
             Straczynski will executive-produce for Babylonian
             Productions.

             CRUSADE begins after a savage attack on Earth by the
             Drakh, allies of the evil Shadows. Earth's humans have
             succeeded in defeating the alien force, but not its final
             revenge: a biogenetic plague that will eliminate all human
             life on Earth, unless a cure can be found. The White Star
             fleet -- led by the advanced prototype warship Excalibur --

             combs the ruins of races far more advanced than humans
             to find the cure that will save them.

             Cole will lead the cast as Captain Matthew Gideon,
             commanding officer of the Excalibur. Cole also appears in
             the upcoming feature releases A Simple Plan, with Bill
             Paxton and Billy Bob Thornton; I'll Be Home For
             Christmas, with Jonathan Taylor Thomas; and Kiss The
             Sky. He recently completed production on Office Space,
             with Jennifer Aniston, for director Mike Judge. His credits

             also include From the Earth to the Moon, The Brady
             Bunch Movie, A Very Brady Sequel, Gang Related
             and In The Line Of Fire, with Clint Eastwood. On
             television, Cole starred in the series American Gothic
             and Midnight Caller and received critical acclaim for his
             role in the miniseries Fatal Vision.

             Scoggins reprises her role from Babylon 5 as Captain
             Elizabeth Lochley. She starred in the television series The

             Colbys, Dynasty, Lois and Clark: The New
             Adventures of Superman and Highlander, as well as
             the telefilm Dallas: J.R. Returns.

             Kim stars as Lieutenant John Matheson,
             second-in-command of the Excalibur. Most recently, Kim
             was seen in The Jackal and Addicted to Love.

             Brooks will play Max Eilersen, a specialist in finding new
             technologies in the ruins of ancient civilizations. On
             television, he starred in Melrose Place and The Young &
             The Restless.

             Holden stars as Dr. Sarah Chambers, a biogeneticist
             assigned to the Excalibur. She starred in Mortal Kombat:
             Annihilation and appeared in Speed 2 and The Lost
             World.

             Dobro will play Dureena, an alien whose own people were
             wiped out by the Drakh. Dobro starred in the television
             series Hypernauts and appeared on Babylon 5.

             Woodward stars as Galen, one of a rare order of humans
             and aliens who use advanced technology to simulate the
             effects of magic. He recently starred in the BBC production

             of Sense & Sensibility and numerous productions for the
             Royal Shakespeare Company.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:46:21 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: IgNoble Etiquette

Dave Nelson writes:

>...an emperor of whatever calibre simply cannot know or pay attention to the
>behavior of trillions of citizens, however, he can become reasonably aware
>of the characters of the members of the nobility. 

I wonder. Even by a conservative estimate based on the assumption that
Imperial nobles are rarer and more powerful than the equivalent of
present-day heads of state, you'll have tens of thousands of them. If you
go by an estimate based on the (IMO) mistaken idea that they are about as
numerous and powerful as 17th Century European nobility, you get billions.

And yes, I know no one specifically _says_ that they are as numerous as
the old European nobility, but that's the way they are portrayed in the
character generation rules and the various adventures...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 19:48:46 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: A touching story of an envirosuited alien, a robot and thier vargr...

On 03/28/99 at 06:06 AM,  Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net> said:

>>AKUS PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS!!!!!

>Looked and laughed and spewed.  Do any of you have any idea just how
>many times I've felt like Florence? 

><gd&r>

Friday I spent my whole lunch hour reading Freefall.  I agree with
everyone else, it was hillarious, very Travellerisk, and yes, it
reminded me of "Mira and the boys" out on the town. ;->

SJG *really* should see about running Freefall on Pyramid. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:22:04 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) wrote:

>Hans wrote:
> 
>>I'm at a loss to understand that statement, since one of the problems with
>>jump drive fuel consumption is that ALL the jump fuel is used up BEFORE the
>>ship enters jump space.
> 
>It is? I know that view of the fuel usage (which I'm not sure the source of)
>is what dooms drop tanks, too. Why not just say some has to be used
>throughout jump (as "displacement mass, coolant, and/or "normal" fuel)?  What
>canon does that violate?

It's the existence of drop tanks that "proves" that all the jump fuel is used
before jump. Since the tanks are dropped before the ship enters jump space,
any unused fuel would be dropped with them. What dooms drop tanks in the
opinion of some people (not including me) is that drop tank equipped ships
are more economic than ships that rely on internal tankage and would thus,
if they existed, crowd out such ships (My opinion is that drop tank traffic
requires a minimum volume to be economic, and is in any case less flexible.
That combined with the fact the drop tanks are a recent invention means,
IMO, that they would be found only on major trade routes. Since very few
published adventures take place on major trade routes, the lack of reference
to such ships is not a major problem to me.

>It would seem to go against the grain of the Jumpspace article in JTAS
>(which implies that jump w/o Lhyd is possible), but anything else?

It's been a while since I read that article, but I don't recall that it
implies any such thing. Could you quote the relevant part?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 20:34:35 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

On 03/27/99 at 11:14 AM,  "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net> said:

>ObTrav: I have yet to Ref a game where the entrepreneurial bent was
>toward anything that did not require a starship or a pile of military
>hardware.  Might a Campaign where the characters open a casino or a
>weapons store be a challenging and exciting scenario, rife with
>pitfalls (and pratfalls)?

Well, sure, but then they wouldn't be travelling!

I could see an entire campaign set on a recreaction asteroid or
station:  casino, bars, hotels, and other assorted ventures.
Adventures could include "bad guys" trying to "cut in on the
business", hijackers both of ship and cargos,
pirates/merchants/belters/patrolmen just dropping by for a little R
& R and interacting.  Could be a lot of fun.

AKUer's doesn't this sound a lot like Beck's Station? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:34:28 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)

> << Well, it could be intelligently designed (though the one in BL wasn't- no
> MFD. too much for the pilot to do, etc) and it's just the artwork that
bites.
> It's usually drawn looking like a big missile with some canard-looking
things
>  rather than actual "wings."  IIRC, they're said to be retractable, too.
>>
> 
> That's because CANON created the Rampart with that shape (see the cover of
> 5th. FFW), and it's stayed that way since...

I know of no game designer by the name of "CANON."  What else has he written?
;-)  

My point was just that it *could* be that the design isn't crappy but that the
art doesn't accurately portray the design. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:34:24 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

> By the fact it's used by the Rampart and airrafts I would assume it is a
> cross between CG and T-plates.

I'd buy that.  Course, having CG, it's behind my conception of the Traveller
Universe.  

> Charles appears to be using HG and CT as his references.

Apparently.  All I was really suggesting was for him to make the best possible
aircraft and grav vehicle and have em go at it.  I'll happily participate if
he wants to duel in FF&S.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:33:30 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missiles

> >But things like clouds help a *lot* by dispersing laser fire and
> >interfering with sensors.

They do?  Maybe TL-8 lasers, but they aren't going to do much to a grav
focused laser.  Not on the scale of planetary combat.

> In any case, how much would cloud disperse a (say) 100 megajoule laser ?

Not very much.  The range of such a laser, even in a dense atmosphere (which
seems close enough to a generic "cloud"), is in the thousands of kilometers.
FTR, a TL-12 100-Mj laser has an effective range of 3,000km (performance:
1/8-25 or penetration up to 212).  To 6,000km, performance is 1/4-13 (pen 64).
This is in a "dense" atmosphere.

> Fusion plant ? Not until about TL12 can you put em in anything smaller than
> 200 m3. In any case, I'd say fusion heated air is pretty close to Heplar in
> design

Original FF&S is pretty explicit that HEPLaR was just a heat exchanger that
could be powered by any kind of power plant.  All it is is heating lhyd to a
plasma and expelling it out the back.  There are handwaves to explain the
extremely good efficiency, too.  Most popular on the TNE list, it seems, is
the Plasma Focus.  Annti can tell you more, but the basics IIRC are lasers are
used to induce microfusion in hydrogen, which launches plasma out at very high
speeds.  Another possible handwave could be a Blacklight reaction and/or Zero
Point Energy.

> >Most Traveller weapons aren't geared for stuff moving that fast.
> 
> They will be if they are designed for counter-insurgency or planetary
> intervention roles.
> 
> Personally, I think they'd get picked off by lasers and so on, if they were
> being shot at ships who were aware of the fact that these weapon systems
> existed.

I agree wholeheartedly.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:02:35 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > That's because CANON created the Rampart with that shape (see the cover of
> > 5th. FFW), and it's stayed that way since...
> 
> I know of no game designer by the name of "CANON."  What else has he written?
> ;-)

Maybe I should have named my ship design bureau "CanonTech" instead of
AuricTech....

Then again, AuricTech gives readers a better idea of the nature of my
designs (gold-plated, all the bells-and-whistles, to excess). <shrug> 
C'est la vie.

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 21:37:01 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Merchants

On 03/27/99 at 12:18 PM,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> said:

>>I don't have SJG's merchant book yet, but in my (slowly reviving) campaign,
>>I'm leaning towards running the group as merchants.

I just got it. It looks good so far.

>>I've come up with a few thoughts that I'd like to briefly run by you all:

>>(1) Trader's Guild: Sort of like the "Ace Hardware" answer to Home
>>Depot/Lowe's. Small merchants band together in order to compete effectively
>>vs. the Big Boys. I'm not sure how far to push the "bennies", but the thought
>>was to a clearinghouse for trades/cargo, maybe selling bids on new prospects,
>>some sort of insurance/health insurance, etc.

I'm not sure who made the original "Ace Hardware" comment, but for
our non-US correspondents...in the US that's the name of a chain of
smallish hardware stores, I think mostly independents with
centeralized marketing/distribution channels.

IMTU, I made the "Spacer's Guild" (offical name Space Merchants and
Workers Guild) one of the bad guys.  It's stated goals are to
protect the rights of "all those that do trade among the stars"
workers and merchants alike.  However, it is secretly controlled by
a cabel of big shipping companies and criminal gangs who are milking
the spacers with dues and pension fund schemes and squeezing the
small companies and independents off the profitable runs and right
out of business.  

A few of the independents are trying to "organize" a competing
association in the Mark system.  They have recently taken a big hit
when one of their leaders "accidentally" fell 40 stories from the
suite of a notorious loan shark, Pele "Pickax" Hiika.
Coincidentally, the number two Guild representative on the planet
happened to be there at the time and corroborated Hiika's story that
"he'd been drinking and just leaned back over the balcony's rail and
fell."  Hiika also claims that the dead man owed him several hundred
thousand in debts, but can't produce any paperwork for that "loan."


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #361
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 362



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
Re: kinetic kill
Re: kinetic kill
Re: Missiles
CT Traveller books on Ebay
Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface
laser fire through clouds
Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)
Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface
Two Questions
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Garbage
Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface
CIN entry: 10/I/1203
Re: Merchants
re: Re: New Sulieman shots up
re: Sea Launch a success!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:17:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

>>>BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
>>>than a plane.
>>>
>>
>>I dought it.  Drag would kill your speed.  No matter how many Gs you have
>>you still have to deal with terminal velosity and wind effects.  A sphere
>>has a terminal velosity around 200-280 mph at one G.  That is the point when
>>air resistance cancel out acceleration.

"Terminal velocity" is the point where drag cancels out the
acceleration due to gravity. It applies to *falling* objects. It also
depends on *density*, since the "propulsive force" is the *mass* of the
object.

A sphere with a 6g drive will be able to go *faster* than terminal
velocity. It will reach a limit at the point where the force of the
drive equals the drag forces. And for a 6g drive that's going to be
damned fast!

>>The effect is non linear and goes
>>through some wierd permutations arround the speed of sound.  At those speeds
>>you are talking some serious design limitations.  One small mistake in your
>>surface geometry and the wind tears your ship apart.
>
> Actually, IIRC, the ideal (as in least-drag) shape for an object travelling
> through a fluid, is a teardrop, going rounded-end forward.  That's why
> Lensmen ships were that shape....

Not quite. The proper shape depends on density and viscosity of the
fluid as well as speed. There's an aerodynamics formula for determining
the Reynolds number based on speed, density and viscosity of the
medium. Situations with the same reynolds number have similar folow
characteristics, and require similar streamlining. 

Teardrops are ok for *subsonic* air. At the time Doc smith wrote the
Lensman stories, the only experience with *supersonic* airflows was
with bullets and shells. Which are *pointed*. 

Supersonic airflows prefer a pointed nose and tail. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:25:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

In mail you write:

>>so that none of its bits hit you (and remember, vapour *is* bits)
>
> If you destroy it far enough out, the vapour isn't an issue. A 1 tonne
> 1000 km/s missile has an energy of 10^15 J, which is a lot...but if I destroy
> it ten seconds out, the fireball will have spread to ~100 km radius by the
> time it hits me, and the energy density as it hits me will be about 10^5
> joules per square meter, or 10 joules per square centimeter, which is like
> getting hit by a pellet from a BB gun (on every facing square centimeter, 
> true, but sensors and radiators can be devised to withstand that.)

Just watch out when the kkm velocity gets up towards c. At some point,
that "vapor" starts counting as particle radiation. And it doesn't take
very many joules per square meter of relativistic ions to result in a
fatal radiation dose!

Another mean, rotten trick would be to using sodium or some similar
metal for the "warhead". The result will be lightly plating your ship
with metal. Which *immediately* renders radar useless and tends to
degrade optics. Firing a laser when the emitter has gotten a light
coating of metal will cause a *major* explosion (because the metal
intercepts a percentage of the beam energy, a percentage large enough
to cause a substantial "bang"). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:32:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson posted:
>> >>
>> >>A kinetic kill missile *cannot* hit without active guidance. And *that*
>> >>is what the laser can knock out.
>> >
>> > Ok, Leonard, you've caused a number of questions
>> > to bubble out of my ignorant brain. :-)
>> 
>> <snip>
>> 
>> > If both of the above are true, why not let the
>> > launching ship guide the missile to its target
>> > and then allow the missile to home during the
>> > terminal approach on the target?
>> 
>> Possibly. But you *then* have to deal with speed of light lag. The ship
>> doing the controlling is seeing where the target (and the missile,
>> incidentally!) was at some point in the past. If you are 5 hexes away,
>> then you'll be looking at where the missile and target were .5 seconds
>> ago, and your commands will take *another* .5 seconds to get there.
>> 
>> This makes steering *very* hard.
>
> Sounds like missiles in any version of Traveller with a 6G limit and
> non-nuclear pumped warheads are useless, assuming no handwaves.

They are fairly useless against a prepared opponent with military grade
point-defence. Even the nuke pumped warheads are at a severe
disadvantage. 

Against armed merchants it's a whole different ball game. 

I'd say you've got the following "levels":

1. warned miltary. You can essentially forget it. You'll keep his point
   defenses busy, but that's about it.
2. surprised military. If you get lucky, you might get a hit.
3. warned civilian. You've got a fair chance of a hit, if you set
   things up right.
4. surprised civilian. You've got a good chance of a hit.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:37:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: kinetic kill

In mail you write:

>>>be a very, very good EMS shield.  At best, the shield will be a few
>>>fractions of a degree above ambient background radiation.
>>People keep saying this, but it's not true. A black foam shield at 1 AU
>>will rapidly heat up to room temperature from sunlight, easily
>>detectable by thermal infrared against space. If it's a white
>>shield, it won't heat up as much but you'll see it by reflected sunlight.
>>SO you need a black shield and you need to cool it actively,  which means
>>you need refrigeration, which needs power, which means you need a place
>>to radiate away waste heat...
>
> Well, actually, even using TL-8 materials, there are several ceramics that
> have perform very well in the thermal shield role.  For example, the tiles
> used by the space shuttle don't become warm to the touch until well after
> reaching incandescence.  The NASA video showed a scientist picking up a
> peice after it had been subjected to an acetelyn (sp?) torch long enough to
> glow white-hot.  The scientist used his bare hands.  Given 7 more TLs I find
> it hard to believe that a material that doesn't fit the bill better will
> come along.  Even worse, simply put the missile in a black globe.
> Expensive, but not likely to shot down, either.

<sigh>

Sorry, but what you saw in that film is *not* what you think. The
material *radiates* just fine. That's what the glow is. And the glowing
parts *are* white-hot. 

But the stuff *conducts* heat so poorly that the corners and edges can
cool off to the point where it's safe to handle it by *them* while
areas millimeters away are still white hot. 

Touch the *center* of one of those faces and you'll get third degree
burns! 

It is *phsyically impossible* to have something that is white hot *and*
cool enough to handle. If you look at the pictures again, you'll see
that the corners are dark, and the edges somewhat dark. That's because
that's were the most surface area attaches to the least volume, making
for the most rapid heat loss via radiation, conduction and convection.

It's good insulation, but that doesn't help. You have to get *rid* of
heat. Otherwise the materials making up the drive will melt. 

In the space shuttle, the heat doesn't work its way thru the tiles
until the shuttle is on the ground. At which point they've hooked up
ventilators to circulate *massive* amounts of cool air thru the shuttle
to keep it livable. In the event of an emergency landing at a normal
airport, the crew will *have* to leave the ship before the internal
temp gets unlivable. They can return in a few hours when things have
cooled down.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:46:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: kinetic kill

In mail you write:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 2:32 PM
> Subject: Re: kinetic kill
>
>>
>>Barring the black globe option, it's set by the laws of thermodynamics. If
>>a material is absorbing 1000 W/m2 of sunlight (which a black object will
> be)
>>it has to radiate 1000 W/m2 of heat at some infrared wavelengths. If it
>>radiates less heat than that, it'll warm up until it does radiate this much
>>heat. It's a fundamental consequence of the laws of thermodynamics.
>
> AHA!  So, we develop a material that doesn't radiate heat until it reaches
> an absurd temperature.

Not *possible*. The temperature of an object *is* the rate at which it
radiates and to some extent, the wavelength. If an object is at 300 K,
it *will* radiate X watts per square meter. No exceptions. It *has* to
radiate. If it is radiating less than X watts, then it isn't at 300 K.
Period. 

That's what Bruce meant about having to refrigerate a surface to reduce
the IR radiation. The radiation rate *is* the temperature. 

> There will be many, many circumstances when the
> fighting will be out past 1 AU or in the presence of a star weaker than Sol.

However the temperature/radiation relationship is a 4th power law. So
the difference between the 3 K background (3 degrees above absolute
zero) and a 300 K object (30 C) is not a factor of 100. It's a factor
of 100^4 = 10e8 or 100 *billion*. 

	radiated
temp	energy
- ------	--------
   3 K	  1
   5 K	 10
   9 K  100
  17 K	  1e3 	Liquid Hydrogen
  30 K	 10e3
  53 K  100e3
  95 K    1e6  
 169 K   10e6
 300 K	100e6	Room temp, average temp of objects at 1AU
 533 K    1e9
 949 K   10e9
1687 K  100e9 
2000 K	198e9	"standard radiators"
3000 K    1e12

And remember that you have to double the distance from the star to drop
the received energy (and thus the radiated energy of objects in thermal
equilibrium) by a factor of 4. Which will only drop the temp by a
factor of 1.4 ( sqrt(2) ).

So you have to be *way* out before thermal signatures drop
significantly. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:39:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Missiles

In mail you write:

>>If I was a relatively poor planet, I'd build *fast* missiles with CG
>>homing capability. Say something like the old Sprint anti-missile
>>system. 200g for 5-10 seconds will put the missile 25-100 km up, moving
>>at 10-20 km/sec. 
>>
>
> Leonard, I have *very* serious doubts about Sprint having the performance
> you quote.
>
> Frankly, I think you are reading reports people wanted to be true, and
> modified for congressional consumption.
>
> That sort of acceleration is just too useful for high-level interceptor
> missiles and so on, and those missiles just didnt happen.

Do you have any idea how *big* a Sprint was?  The second stage ignition
occured practically on top of the launcher, too. And they cost like
sin. They just cost a *lot* less than having a nuke hit you. :-)

I've exchanged messages with some folks who worked on the program. 

>>Most Traveller weapons aren't geared for stuff moving that fast.
>
> They will be if they are designed for counter-insurgency or planetary
> intervention roles.

Depends. This sort of thing *is* taking a technology (solid fuel
rockets) *way* out to the extreme edge of practicality. 

> Personally, I think they'd get picked off by lasers and so on, if they were
> being shot at ships who were aware of the fact that these weapon systems
> existed.

Which is part of my point. They'd only exist in systems that were being
recontacted (and not all of those). There are much *better* ways of
achieving the same effect with other technologies.

This is rtather like the situation where you try to protect against WWI
biplanes with modern missiles. They don't have the thermal signature
*or* the radar signature for the missiles to pay attention. 

They *can* be picked off, but not by the automated systems. 

This sort of thing is one of those situations that *can* happen, but
doesn't happen often. So it'll screw you royally if it does happen, but
the odds are against any sort of "standard" precautions being deployed.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:46:02 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: CT Traveller books on Ebay

There are a couple sets of Traveller Books 1-3 on Ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=83819144

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=83718904

I'd heard some people looking, the bids right now are pretty low.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:43:14 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface

At 12:27 PM 3/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Hold on a second.  When did brain-machine interfaces appear in Traveller? 
>They're not part of any milieu I'm familiar with.
>
>This isn't a criticism, just a question.  I always got the impression that
>Traveller had always avoided this sort of thing as too cyberpunkish.
>
>(BTW: I enjoy these little factoids, since I seldom have time to hunt them
>down on my own.)
>----------
They originally appeared in JTAS 22 in the article 'Computer Implants' by
J. Andrew Keith in 1985.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:02:30 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: laser fire through clouds

>>[clouds block lasers]
>They do?  Maybe TL-8 lasers, but they aren't going to do much to a grav
>focused laser.  Not on the scale of planetary combat.
>> In any case, how much would cloud disperse a (say) 100 megajoule laser ?
>Not very much.  The range of such a laser, even in a dense atmosphere (which
>seems close enough to a generic "cloud"), is in the thousands of kilometers.
>FTR, a TL-12 100-Mj laser has an effective range of 3,000km (performance:
>1/8-25 or penetration up to 212).  To 6,000km, performance is 1/4-13 (pen 64)
>This is in a "dense" atmosphere.
I'm normally the advocate of lasers-as-the-ultimate-weapon, but the one
thing they won't do is shoot through clouds. Clouds are (you may have
noticed this) opaque. They absorb and scatter light. A laser beam, no
matter how it's focussed or what kind of adaptive correction it has, will
get absorbed and scattered rapidly. This is probably one reason why
plasma weapons are more common than lasers for atmosphere craft/grav
tanks...

TNE in general was somewhat too generous with atmosphere ranges/performance
diminishment (especially for x-ray lasers; the atmosphere is basically
opaque to x-ray lasers.) As a seperate issue, IMTU, grav focus doesn't
work through atmosphere; it absorbs the grav pulse. So ground-based
laser weapons are fairly short ranged. Atmospheric turbulence will
degrade laser fire into an atmosphere unless the firing craft is fairly
close, so in general lasers are used to/from orbit, not halfway across
the solar system (makes ground attack more interesting.)

And, as others have said, the debate about what shape atmosphere fighters
should have is fairly silly. Speed and maneuverability don't help you dodge
lasers or even plasma fire, so atmosphere fighters have to rely on armour
and on turrets that let them point there weapons in any direction - which
is to say, they become tanks.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 01:51:03 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rampart (Was: max accel)

In a message dated 3/28/99 6:44:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:

<< That's because CANON created the Rampart with that shape (see the cover of
 > 5th. FFW), and it's stayed that way since...
 
 I know of no game designer by the name of "CANON."  What else has he written?
 ;-)  
 
 My point was just that it *could* be that the design isn't crappy but that
the
 art doesn't accurately portray the design. 
 
 
 Gary
  >>

fair enough...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:48:01 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface

Dear Folks -

Thomas asked:
>Hold on a second.  When did brain-machine interfaces appear in Traveller?
>They're not part of any milieu I'm familiar with.

Old JTAS (#16?) article "Computer Implants", c.1981.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:43:08 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Two Questions

I have just located a copy of Solomani and Aslan and I was wondering what
race or subspecies the "Box-headed" humanoid (on pages 13 and 35) belonged
to. Anyone got an answer?
Second question, what is the URL for the story Freefall? I have read a bit
about it in the TML and I am curious.

Thanks.

I remember, when I was a child, being taken to the celebrated Barnum's
Circus, which contained an exhibition of freaks and monstrosities. But the
exhibit on the programme that I most desired to see was the one described as
"The Boneless Wonder". My parents judged that the spectacle would be too
revolting and too demoralizing for my youthful eyes, and I waited fifty
years to see the Boneless Wonder sitting on the Treasury Bench.

Winston Churchill, 1933

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:58:17 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Monday, 29 March 1999 14:34
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)


>On 03/27/99 at 11:14 AM,  "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net> said:
>
>>ObTrav: I have yet to Ref a game where the entrepreneurial bent was
>>toward anything that did not require a starship or a pile of military
>>hardware.  Might a Campaign where the characters open a casino or a
>>weapons store be a challenging and exciting scenario, rife with
>>pitfalls (and pratfalls)?
>
>Well, sure, but then they wouldn't be travelling!

They could be if it was a travelling casion, like the old Missisipi
riverboats, but betwen the stars...

Damn, I've got the urge to do a LARP about that now.

I have actualy experienced different Traveller games, such as the type that
the T4 "Nobles" book was based on, diplomatic level and espionage stuff.

Then there's playing the road crew for Disaater Area, or the crew of a science
ship.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:03:11 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

> It's the existence of drop tanks that "proves" that all the jump fuel is
used
> before jump. Since the tanks are dropped before the ship enters jump space,
> any unused fuel would be dropped with them. What dooms drop tanks in the

There aren't any canon designs that have drop tank equipped ships w/o internal
tankage are there?  This is what needs to be outlawed by the design systems
IMO.  The rest can be solved by the Gearheads.

Going on the TNE Gazelle, it has better jump performance w/o the tanks than
with (J5 vs J3), as the greater displacement requires more fuel per jump
level, which follows by common sense.  The Supplement 9 Gazelle still is still
capable of J2 w/o the drop tanks...  

Here's my take:  J2 worth (at the higher displacement) is used at the
*instant* of jump, the drop tank's fuel is transfered to the internal tankage
and then the tanks ditched giving lower displacement, to be consumed during
the jump, which original FF&S' treatment handles well.  How's that?

What is the CT/FFS2 fuel consumption again?  Some FFS2 gearhead can give us
the appropriate #s.  Is this scenario voided by anything (say Supplement 7)?
The strawman seems to be that J5 is held in a drop tank, jump is started and
the empty drop tanks are ditched and all the J-fuel is consumed in an
amazingly short time (any concrete time mentioned?)...

> opinion of some people (not including me) is that drop tank equipped ships
> are more economic than ships that rely on internal tankage and would thus,
> if they existed, crowd out such ships (My opinion is that drop tank traffic

That's just the sort of sticking ones head in the sand, to pretend the problem
doesn't exist, that I really dislike.  It's characteristic in many places by
people afraid to let to the OTU grow and develop (as if their campaigns have
to be sucked along for the ride) and stagnate.  Drop tanks are just one.

One Other: Nanotech (my solution... it never pans out for whatever reason...
the capabilities and awesome power are always advertised, but never flesh out,
at TL17 IMTU it does start living up to sci-fi, but only in a fluidic form,
not gaseous nor solid, kinda remiscent of the T1000 or Odo from DS9 (before
they had the stupid idea where the one changeling could turn into a cloud,
though hey, it's ST, what do u expect?).  I also think a certain invasion of
the Trojan Reaches tends towards here (though I stayed out of that discussion
despite numerous draft emails).  ;-)

> requires a minimum volume to be economic, and is in any case less flexible.
> That combined with the fact the drop tanks are a recent invention means,
> IMO, that they would be found only on major trade routes. Since very few
> published adventures take place on major trade routes, the lack of reference
> to such ships is not a major problem to me.

I'd buy that, too, though I like my solution better.  :-)  My way doesn't
require a ridiculous (IMOO) assumption and handwave (nor watery musings) on
the workings of Jump Drive.

> >It would seem to go against the grain of the Jumpspace article in JTAS
> >(which implies that jump w/o Lhyd is possible), but anything else?
> 
> It's been a while since I read that article, but I don't recall that it
> implies any such thing. Could you quote the relevant part?

Probably the part:

<<Power Source: Jump uses large amounts of energy to rip open the barriers 
between normal space and jump space. Normally only fusion power can 
supply this energy. Some alternate systems make use of solar power 
generators (which operate much more slowly), or anti-matter power 
systems (rare and very high-tech). >>

The part on "Contaminated Fuel" also references the *ship's* power plant.
"Power Generation Capability" implies an "equally capable alternative" to
fusion power generation systems must be available.  These bits would both
dispel the DGP/SoM super-quick-plant and the FF&S model (by requiring ship's
power).  I'm completely ignoring the abomination presented in FFS2, which is
completely groundless IMO, as far as canon is concerned (though itself isn't
necessarily a "bad" model.  MTU, i'm thinking all 3 versions are possible,
though the original FF&S' is most prevalent (and was used in/by the 3I, for
whatever reason)).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:03:07 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface

> Hold on a second.  When did brain-machine interfaces appear in Traveller? 
> They're not part of any milieu I'm familiar with.

They're in the original (TNE) FF&S in cybernetics w/ Implant Computers &
neural jacks that can allow all sorts of things (smart links, data storage,
etc) as well as things like therapy, drugs, etc.

> This isn't a criticism, just a question.  I always got the impression that
> Traveller had always avoided this sort of thing as too cyberpunkish.

Mostly, it has.  Along w/ other issues like nanotech, biotech, etc.  Usually
it's blamed on 'Vilani Conservatism.'  I, on the other hand, prefer to think
the Vilani might have delt with it and developed it, though it would've
naturally been along the stagnant lines mandated by the researcher castes.
Blech.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:03:15 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: CIN entry: 10/I/1203

Here's the first in a series of CIN articles intended to preface my iminent
TNE campaigns.  Comments desired and appreciated.


Gary
- ---

COALINFONET, CLASS: NOTICE TO STARFARERS, DISTRIBUTION: MANDTY, AUTHORITY RCSA
PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICE, RCSA COMPOUND, VRASSTADT, AUBAINE (0738/AUBAINE,
A78A884-C),10/I/1203
KEYWORDS: INTERSTELLAR TRADE, SCHOTZ, STARPORT, HIVE FEDERATION, SITAH

NOTICE TO STARFARERS

	RCSA is pleased to announce the opening of diplomatic relations with the
planet Schotz (1937/So Skire/Old Expanses).  Though the world remains very
reculsive and restricts foreign contact, the Hive Federation has been allowed
to establish a Temporary Base in the outer sytem, that will enable the
refueling of
ships and provide a firm Jump 3 link connecting the Reformation Coalition and
the Hiver client-state in Sitah subsector (Subsector P/Old Expanses).
	Travel to the planet and use of it's class C starport will be restricted
until negotiations can be completed, though the use of the Hiver Temp Base
(and all such bases on the Jump 3 link) has been extended to all Coalition
vessels, as well as independant merchants.  Some Assembly representatives have
expressed concern over the reclusive nature of the world and it's goverment.
RCES confirms that the world is not ruled by a Technologically Elevated
Dictatorship, just extremely high levels of xenophobia.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:09:18 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Merchants

> >>I don't have SJG's merchant book yet, but in my (slowly reviving)
campaign,
> >>I'm leaning towards running the group as merchants.
> 
> I just got it. It looks good so far.

How bout a review, you Heretic?  ;-)

> IMTU, I made the "Spacer's Guild" (offical name Space Merchants and
<snip Bad Guy Guild stuff>

Sounds like the Mercantile Guild [of Diaspora] in TNE.  

> A few of the independents are trying to "organize" a competing
> association in the Mark system.  They have recently taken a big hit
> when one of their leaders "accidentally" fell 40 stories from the
> suite of a notorious loan shark, Pele "Pickax" Hiika.
> Coincidentally, the number two Guild representative on the planet
> happened to be there at the time and corroborated Hiika's story that
> "he'd been drinking and just leaned back over the balcony's rail and
> fell."  Hiika also claims that the dead man owed him several hundred
> thousand in debts, but can't produce any paperwork for that "loan."

This sounds like good stuff.  ;-)  Just like a development in the Free Trader
Network I'm planning for my campaigns...  Do you keep logs on teh web
somewhere?  Do you allow lurkers?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:06:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Re: New Sulieman shots up

Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Ok, its official. I hate walking in on the middle of conversations.  I
>missed the URL for this trove of treasures, too... Would someone please be
>so kind as to forward it to me via private email?

It's a subpage off http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/ but I can't
remember which one.

It may be quicker going to BITS http://www.bits.org.uk/ then selecting the
jumpsite page, then clicking the direct link to Jesse's pages.

The artwork is really, really good.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:08:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Sea Launch a success!

David Smart <warlock@imagin.net> writes:

>I almost forgot!
>The first equatorial launch of an orbital package from an
>ocean-based mobile platform was made successfully yesterday
>from a location 1400 miles (uh, about 2330 km.) south of
>Hawaii.
>For details, go to: http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/

Excellent.

>BTW, if anyone finds these posts annoying, let me know and
>I'll stop. I just think it's so cool to have aspects of
>Traveller become real and even exceeded in our lifetimes.

David,

Don't stop putting stuff like this up!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #362
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Monday, March 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 363



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4
OT re: CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!
Re: Missiles
[BITS] Website Update 29 March 99
Re: kinetic kill
M:IW - The Ernest Lord Rutherford
Re: No minimum length on Meson Guns
Re: Valid Ship design systems
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #362
Traveller LARP?
Re: Traveller LARP?
Re: Traveller LARP?
Sea Launch
RE: energy weapon faring
Re: kinetic kill
Re: OT re: CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!
Re: OT re: CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!
Re: laser fire through clouds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:13:03 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:

>Just out of curiosity, do those of you who play T4 consider the QSDS and
>SSDS to be valid ship design systems (since they produce ships in
>variance with FF&S2)  I did some SSDS designs using the Akins
>spreadsheet, and want to know whether they would be worth posting to my
>site and/or the TML.

Certainly QSDS 1.5 (the pdf version). SSDS produces similar results. FFS2
is such a pain to use as released (no offence intended Dave/Guy).

But I'd use HG in preference to either unless I ...

<plug>

...happened to have a Mac and could download Rob Prior's QSDS software from
BITS (http://www.bits.org.uk/) and design QSDS ships in about 5 minutes.

</plug>

Don't know what came over me  then ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:17:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OT re: CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!

>             CRUSADE, the highly anticipated new series from the
>             creators of the Emmy Award- and Hugo Award-winning
>             series Babylon 5, will premiere on TNT on Wednesday,
>             June 9 at 10 pm ET/PT.

I notice that they've put production of anything past the first thirteen
episodes on hold until they see how the ratings are.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:23:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:


>Not very much.  The range of such a laser, even in a dense atmosphere (which
>seems close enough to a generic "cloud"), is in the thousands of kilometers.
>FTR, a TL-12 100-Mj laser has an effective range of 3,000km (performance:
>1/8-25 or penetration up to 212).  To 6,000km, performance is 1/4-13 (pen 64).
>This is in a "dense" atmosphere.

I think he's thinking more of what if that laser superheats the cloud and
converts vapour to steam, giving massive ionisation efects. I suspect it'd
give problems with the first few shots, but at a Traveller FFS(x) rate of
fire this may be ultimately irrelevant.

>Original FF&S is pretty explicit that HEPLaR was just a heat exchanger that
>could be powered by any kind of power plant.  All it is is heating lhyd to a
>plasma and expelling it out the back.

This is what annoys me - T-plates were handwaves, but so is HEPLaR. <sigh>

>There are handwaves to explain the
>extremely good efficiency, too.  Most popular on the TNE list, it seems, is
>the Plasma Focus.  Annti can tell you more, but the basics IIRC are lasers are
>used to induce microfusion in hydrogen, which launches plasma out at very high
>speeds.  Another possible handwave could be a Blacklight reaction and/or Zero
>Point Energy.

Could a small version of such technology make space scale plasma weapons
viable?

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:54:24 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] Website Update 29 March 99

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

The BITS website http://www.bits.org.uk/ has been updated as follows:

1) Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's Pocket Empires Excel Spreadsheet

	...has been updated to version 1.6.4. This is now a smaller file
than before, and very useful to PE GMs. A MacOS version has been added.
______________
This is a spreadsheet to handle some of the calculations involved in running a
Pocket Empires campaign. The spreadsheet currently:

  -  Calculates the GDP for each world
  -  Calculates Government Income, Fixed Expenses and
     Available Budget for each world
  -  Calculates Popularity and Prestige for each
     individual world
  -  Features a worksheet for calculating the prestige
     of multiworld Empires
  -  Calculates the trade codes for each world
  -  Calculates the initial Resource, Infrastructure and
     Culture scores for each world
  -  Calculates the Resource demand for each world
  -  Calculates the Resource trade benefits for each
     world

Changes to 1.64
  -  Fixed bug in resources available formula
  -  Use of absolute references removes the need to edit
     formula when adding new lines
  -  Added comments to the headers to explain what each
     cell does
  -  Reduced the number of worlds from 350 to 50 so as to
     reduce the size
  -  Added a Mac version
  -  Added non-official viable trade partners option

The sheet is capable of handling up to 50 worlds. To add more worlds just copy
and paste the appropriate lines in the GDP sheet.
________

2) GenConUk 99

	A link to the RPGA site for GenCon UK has been added.

3) Release 2 of 101 Starships for GURPS Traveller

	...will be added soon for your entertainment. We'll let you know when.


Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:58:57 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: kinetic kill

<sigh>

The glow *is* white-hot, as you say, and you really don't want to stick your
hand in front of the torch to find out (well, at least I wouldn't), but as
soon as you remove the torch from the tile, it returns to a near ambient
temperature extremely fast - thats what the ablative tiles *do*.  They
radiate waste heat by losing the hot 'bits' - radiation, conduction and
convection are smaller parts of the process.

I saw a video similar to that at school (could have been the same video for
all I know), back when challenger blew up in 1986 (I think).  The scientist
picks up the tile with his fingers near the middle of the tile, scant
seconds after it has had a torch on it.  The tile reverted from incandescent
(visually) to dull in those few seconds.  I spent the rest of the day
daydreaming about space travel, and how we'd be zipping around in
spacecopters within a few years :(

However, that doesn't solve our missile problem.  What about heating a heat
pump to heat up something in the core *really* hot (steam-turbine driving
the heat pump) while keeping the outside cold?  I'm sure there is a law of
diminishing returns in here somewhere though...

Mike

> > Well, actually, even using TL-8 materials, there are several ceramics
that
> > have perform very well in the thermal shield role.  For example, the
tiles
> > used by the space shuttle don't become warm to the touch until well
after
> > reaching incandescence.  The NASA video showed a scientist picking up a
> > peice after it had been subjected to an acetelyn (sp?) torch long enough
to
> > glow white-hot.  The scientist used his bare hands.  Given 7 more TLs I
find
> > it hard to believe that a material that doesn't fit the bill better will
> > come along.  Even worse, simply put the missile in a black globe.
> > Expensive, but not likely to shot down, either.
>
> <sigh>
>
> Sorry, but what you saw in that film is *not* what you think. The
> material *radiates* just fine. That's what the glow is. And the glowing
> parts *are* white-hot.
>
> But the stuff *conducts* heat so poorly that the corners and edges can
> cool off to the point where it's safe to handle it by *them* while
> areas millimeters away are still white hot.
>
> Touch the *center* of one of those faces and you'll get third degree
> burns!
>
> It is *phsyically impossible* to have something that is white hot *and*
> cool enough to handle. If you look at the pictures again, you'll see
> that the corners are dark, and the edges somewhat dark. That's because
> that's were the most surface area attaches to the least volume, making
> for the most rapid heat loss via radiation, conduction and convection.
>
> It's good insulation, but that doesn't help. You have to get *rid* of
> heat. Otherwise the materials making up the drive will melt.
>
> In the space shuttle, the heat doesn't work its way thru the tiles
> until the shuttle is on the ground. At which point they've hooked up
> ventilators to circulate *massive* amounts of cool air thru the shuttle
> to keep it livable. In the event of an emergency landing at a normal
> airport, the crew will *have* to leave the ship before the internal
> temp gets unlivable. They can return in a few hours when things have
> cooled down.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:06:16 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: M:IW - The Ernest Lord Rutherford

Ernest Lord Rutherford, Rutherford class Explorer (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
 Tons: 5000 Td (AF Wedge Hypersonic)
 Crew: 37/38
 Cargo: 100 Td (2 Large Cargo Hatches, Handling: 4 x 350 ton)
 Volume: 70000m3
 Passengers High/Med: 0/0
 Cost: 3464.781 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 28192t/24748t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 1363
 Dimensions: 128.8m x 88.5m x 36.8m
 Troops/Science: 0/12
 Tech Level: 9
 Size: 9
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Computer, High automation. 10 x FltComp (CM: 0.5 CP: 2.0).
           6 x Comp (CM: 0.5 CP: 2.0). 6 x FibComp (CM: 0.5 CP: 2.0).
           Terrain following sensors (TF: 390, NOE: 130). Bridge.
 Communications: 1 x TB Radio (1,000 AU, 0.2MW). 2 x Laser (1,000 AU, 
0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x Sci Pas. Scanner (13 [5mkm] Sci, 0.02MW).
          1 x Sci Pas. Tracker (13 [5mkm] Sci, 0.01MW).
          1 x Sci AEMS (11.5 [0.5mkm] Sci, 10MW).
          1 x Sci LIDAR (14.5 [500kkm] Sci, 2MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0, IR:0 (-0.5 at 200MW), Act:0.5, Neu:1, Grav:-2

Weaponry

Performance
 1 Jump (500 Td/pc fuel)
 2/2.2 Maneuver (Fusion: 0MW, 7.5 G-hours)
 0/0 Contra-grav
 2223kph/2508kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 1667kph/1881kph)
 1 Power (Fusion: 2000MW, 2yr)
 0 Battery
 650 + 1500 Fuel (Scoop: 10, Purif: 168, 3MW)
 0/0/50/0/0 Accomodations (50 x Sanitary Fittings)
 650 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Endurance B [50], Normal Food 
[Stored])
 0 G-Comp (GTanks: 50 Crew)
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 0 [20] Armor, 30 Structure

Features
 40 x Decontamination Airlock
 2 x Docking Umbilical
 2 x Electronic Shop (6 Td ea.)
 2 x Machine Shop (10 Td ea.)
 5 x Laboratory (8 Td ea.)
 2 x Sickbay (8 Td ea.)
 1 x Ship's locker (2.5 Td ea.)
 4 x Gym (2.5 Td ea.)
 1 x Full Galley (Cap: 50)

Small Craft
 1 x Spacious Hanger (60 Td, 2 hatches)

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 1 x TB Radio (1,000 AU). 2 x Laser (1,000 AU).
 Sensors: 1 x Sci Pas. Scanner (13 [5mkm] Sci).
          1 x Sci Pas. Tracker (13 [5mkm] Sci).
          1 x Sci AEMS (11.5 [0.5mkm] Sci).
          1 x Sci LIDAR (14.5 [500kkm] Sci).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details						
 6 x Helm
 23 x Engineering
 3 x Maintaince
 5 x Command
 1 x Steward

The Ernest Lord Rutherford is often mentioned as one of the first three
Terran interstellar probes (the other two being the Micheal Collins
[Starleaper I] and the Yuri Gagarin). However, in reality there was very
little similarity between her and her contemparies. Whereas the Collins and
the Gargarin were mannned probes, the Rutherford was a fully fledged
Exploration ship. More than ten times the displacement of either the Collins
or the Gagarin, the Rutherford was capable of conducting a complete system
survey. While the Rutherford was begun almost a year before either the
Collins or Gagarin, both her size and the detailed preparations made for her
mission ment she was not ready to jump before the Starleaper I mission
returned to Terra.

Unlike the Collins and Gargarin, she was intended to complete her mission
without resorting to deep space refueling and carried sufficent fuel for four
consecutive jumps. Her life-support systems were completely self contained
(including gardens) and as a result, her endurance was only restricted by the
pyschological limitations of her crew. She was fitted with extensive sensors
for survey, along with a complete set of backups in case of failure and low
berths for the entire crew in the event of disaster.

With the return of the Starleaper I mission, the Rutherford's original
mission to Alpha Centuari was abandoned in favour of a 'grand tour' of the
nearby systems to establish the extent of the Ziru Sirka and to locate
potential new colonies. Many latter commentators tend to lose sight of the
fact that at this stage, the latter mission was driven more by Earth-bound
rivalries than any fear of the Vilani. The Rutherford returned from her first
mission in 2097 AD, after having surveyed Prometheus, Perspera, Midway, and
Junction. The Western League shared the results of this voyage with the ESA
in return for access to the Europa Deep Space Base. This was an important
foundation in the establishment of European/Oceanian dominance on Earth in
the years leading up to the establishment of the Terran Confederation.

Tragically the Rutherford never compeleted her second voyage. In 2098 AD she
left Junction enroute to Fenris and was never seen again.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:53:02 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: No minimum length on Meson Guns

>
>Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:07:22 +0000
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters
>
>Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Meson guns ? Yeah. The weapon of choice for planetary defense everywhere.
>
>Isn't there an undocumented feature in FFS2 (FFS1) that forgot about
>minimum tunnel lengths for meson weapons which means Ditzie gets more
>exciting toys?
>
>Dom

Yeah. One of my lobbying efforts is to get a minimum length on Meson Guns
of 60 meters at TL11, reducing by 10 meters per TL thereafter.

This way, they can stay in space and underground, where they belong, and
not provide a counter-battery proof battlefield artillery that people can
use to skeet-shoot grav tanks.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:02:59 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Valid Ship design systems

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4
>
>Just out of curiosity, do those of you who play T4 consider the QSDS and
>SSDS to be valid ship design systems (since they produce ships in
>variance with FF&S2)  I did some SSDS designs using the Akins
>spreadsheet, and want to know whether they would be worth posting to my
>site and/or the TML.

I'd prefer them rebuilt to FFS2 standards, but yeah I think they are valid.

What I'd like is a percentage-based High-Guard type system, and a modular
QSDS/SSDS system, both with components based on FFS2.

I've got fragments of the High Guard system built ... it may or may not see
the light of day soon.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:40:02 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #362

Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:43:08 +1000 "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com> wrote:

> I have just located a copy of Solomani and Aslan and I was wondering what
> race or subspecies the "Box-headed" humanoid (on pages 13 and 35) belonged
> to. Anyone got an answer?

Those are Vegans

> Second question, what is the URL for the story Freefall? I have read a bit
> about it in the TML and I am curious.

http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:27:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Traveller LARP?

From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> Damn, I've got the urge to do a LARP about that now.

Now, that's an interesting comment.  How -would- one run a Traveller 
LARP?  Has it been done?  Does anyone have any plans to do so within 
the next year?  And, how do I get a copy of the rules so I can get in 
on this?  :)

(Hey, if Star Wars and B5 can have LARPs, why can't we, eh?)

Intrigued With The Possibilities,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:37:33 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller LARP?

Jason Kemp wrote:

> From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> > Damn, I've got the urge to do a LARP about that now.
>
> Now, that's an interesting comment.  How -would- one run a Traveller
> LARP?  Has it been done?  Does anyone have any plans to do so within
> the next year?  And, how do I get a copy of the rules so I can get in
> on this?  :)

I played in a Traveller LARP.  It was at a convention and everyone got
secret assignments in one room and then sent down to the pool area. The
pool  area was like a lounge while we waited for a ship to arrive. A
friend of mine and I were running our own scam to sell plans for a jump-6
drive.  It had nothing to do with our assigned mission though.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:18:17 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller LARP?

I played in a LARP called ConStar. It was a lot like Traveller. You could
buy ships and such or serve as crew on someone else's ship if you can't
afford one. You would buy/sell/trade your cargo at the con's. Their were
people set up at the "spaceport" to buy/sell new stuff and you could trade
with others. Their were about half a dozeb differet conventions, (Different
places) we considered each to be a different "port".

When I played, I actually played as the personal bodyguard to a wealthy
merchant. I basically was at her side throught the convention. I remember
one guy was bugging her and I asked him to back off. He got upset and
challenged me to a dual. Then he asked for my name.... What he didn't know
was my characters uncle was the head of one of the most powerful "houses".
After giving my name I excepted his challenge. He actually got scared at
that point. He contacted me several times after the con, trying to get out
of the dual. After some time, I agreed that he could make a public apology
to me, to her and to my house. It would have been great... but he never
showed up and I never heard from him again.

Bringing this thread back to casino's and such. The merchant princess that I
was guarding had set up a travelling casino. We had all kinds of tables set
up, roulette, poker, blackjack, etc... Everything was fine, as long as we
didn't use real money and we used a computer for the roulette wheel.

Shawn Campbell
Electric Stitch Digitizing
electric-stitch@w-link.net
http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/


- -----Original Message-----
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 6:40 AM
Subject: Traveller LARP?


From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> Damn, I've got the urge to do a LARP about that now.

Now, that's an interesting comment.  How -would- one run a Traveller
LARP?  Has it been done?  Does anyone have any plans to do so within
the next year?  And, how do I get a copy of the rules so I can get in
on this?  :)

(Hey, if Star Wars and B5 can have LARPs, why can't we, eh?)

Intrigued With The Possibilities,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:11:55 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Sea Launch

This post had relevance to us all as SF fans, Traveller players and Human
Beings. I WANT to know about Sea Launch and other space developments.

As has already been said, we're living some aspects of Traveller right now
and I want to know about it!!!!

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:23:36 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: energy weapon faring

Charles Collin writes:
"Essentially you get a plasma gun that looks like a cross 
between an old Howitzer (with that flat armor plate thingy, 
y'know?) and the front of a racing bike.  Cool, eh?"

	I can live with that.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:34:09 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: kinetic kill

At 09:58 PM 3/29/99 +1200, you wrote:
><sigh>
>
>The glow *is* white-hot, as you say, and you really don't want to stick your
>hand in front of the torch to find out (well, at least I wouldn't), but as
>soon as you remove the torch from the tile, it returns to a near ambient
>temperature extremely fast - thats what the ablative tiles *do*.  They
>radiate waste heat by losing the hot 'bits' - radiation, conduction and
>convection are smaller parts of the process.
>
>I saw a video similar to that at school (could have been the same video for
>all I know), back when challenger blew up in 1986 (I think).  The scientist
>picks up the tile with his fingers near the middle of the tile, scant
>seconds after it has had a torch on it.  The tile reverted from incandescent
>(visually) to dull in those few seconds.  I spent the rest of the day
>daydreaming about space travel, and how we'd be zipping around in
>spacecopters within a few years :(

During an assembly in 1980 or 81, when I was living on Eastern Shore of
Maryland, we had a NASA scientist discuss the Shuttle and how it worked.
At the begining of the assembly he ignited a plumbers blowtorch and set it
in a cradle so that the flame would wash over the tile.  Near the end of
his spiel, over an hour later, he turned off the torch, waited a moment or
two, and then to the disbelief of all who were watching, picked up the tile
with his bare hand.  His explanation was that the tile needed a lot of
energy to heat, and shed it just as quick.  

Kurt

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:41:07 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: OT re: CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!

- --------------D9049428CA08E76C46F3BCB0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



SD Mooney wrote:

> I notice that they've put production of anything past the first thirteen
> episodes on hold until they see how the ratings are.
>

Well...I love B5 as much as anybody, but you've got to admit that the last
season wasn't that hot and the TV movies were more miss than hit.

I don't blame TNT.  It was such an incredible show that just went down the
tubes.

Kenneth.


- --------------D9049428CA08E76C46F3BCB0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
&nbsp;

<P>SD Mooney wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I notice that they've put production of anything
past the first thirteen
<BR>episodes on hold until they see how the ratings are.
<BR><A HREF="http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/"></A>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
Well...I love B5 as much as anybody, but you've got to admit that the last
season wasn't that hot and the TV movies were more miss than hit.

<P>I don't blame TNT.&nbsp; It was such an incredible show that just went
down the tubes.

<P>Kenneth.
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

- --------------D9049428CA08E76C46F3BCB0--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:55:49 -0800 (PST)
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: OT re: CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!

> I notice that they've put production of anything past the first thirteen
> episodes on hold until they see how the ratings are.

Oh, great.  I really hope they put it on at a time that will allow them to
get decent ratings!  Ten or eleven at night is not the best time to run a
show like that.

				Zane

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:12:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: laser fire through clouds

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> I'm normally the advocate of lasers-as-the-ultimate-weapon, but the one
> thing they won't do is shoot through clouds. Clouds are (you may have
> noticed this) opaque. They absorb and scatter light. A laser beam, no
> matter how it's focussed or what kind of adaptive correction it has, will
> get absorbed and scattered rapidly. This is probably one reason why
> plasma weapons are more common than lasers for atmosphere craft/grav
> tanks...

Actually, to be totally realistic, they won't work worth a damn through
atmosphere at all, because unfortunately unless air is perfectly clear a laser
going through air will start heating up the air -- and a laser intense enough
to burn through significant amounts of steel in a short time (flash duration
sufficiently low that the 1 cm beam doesn't drift more than its own width when
shooting an evading target, so .04 seconds or less) will flash-heat atmosphere
to plasma, which is opaque; even a lower energy laser will cause enough heating
of air to change its index of refraction, which will diffuse the beam...  As
such, you can assume that a 1cm width beam probably just won't penetrate
atmosphere if its discharge energy is over a few hundred kilojoules.  This is
actually also a legitimate worry for the ability to penetrate armor -- these
high energy lasers will turn steel to plasma, which will then absorb quite a
bit of energy itself.

Note that you can resolve many of these problems by using a more realistic
laser technology -- if you simply use a wide area focus (one square meter or
more) and collapse the beam duration down to microseconds you can get a beam
through atmosphere, and flash heating on the surface will cause shockwaves in
the surface of the material, which will actually do a reasonable job of
damaging the target.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #363
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 364



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: No minimum length on Meson Guns
Re: Garbage
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
(OT) Crusade
Re: No minimum length on Meson Guns
Re: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4
Re: (OT) Crusade
GT: Far Trader Comments
Re: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4
Real weapons breakthrough
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Delurking...
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: max accel
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: max accel
Re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:14:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: No minimum length on Meson Guns

Ian or Katts writes:
 
> Yeah. One of my lobbying efforts is to get a minimum length on Meson Guns
> of 60 meters at TL11, reducing by 10 meters per TL thereafter.
> 
> This way, they can stay in space and underground, where they belong, and
> not provide a counter-battery proof battlefield artillery that people can
> use to skeet-shoot grav tanks.

Artillery?  Bah, just use them as direct fire weapons.  This was a problem with
designing vehicles for GT: Star Mercs, which resulted in rules changes for
meson weapons in GT -- you could reasonably afford to put a meson gun on every
truck, and suddenly armor was obsolete.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:36:57 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

In a message dated 3/29/99 1:07:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:

<< 
 There aren't any canon designs that have drop tank equipped ships w/o
internal
 tankage are there?  This is what needs to be outlawed by the design systems
 IMO.  The rest can be solved by the Gearheads. >>

I did something similar. I designed a battlerider tender with no internal jump
fuel tanks. She carries her jump fuel in external demountable tanks which are
mounted in the rider bays. You can swap bays for riders (the tanks are the
same volume as a battlerider) to trade jump range for payload. I don't see why
I can't do this with drop tanks instead...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:32:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

with this thread about Traveller casinos; since I live in Vegas; if anyone
needs data about the industry; please E mail me.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:43:59 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: (OT) Crusade

Greetings:

If it ain't already been said: The show has already been cancelled by TNT.
Various rumors abound on the reasons, but I think it's because TNT is finding
it cheaper to recycle old shows than pay for new ones.

Oh well, they'll show the 12 or so episodes that have been filmed. And there's
always a chance that another network will pick it up.

In the meantime, there's always Traveller!

Fred Kiesche
(Amateur astronomer since 1965, Traveller since 1977, father since 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:46:19 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: No minimum length on Meson Guns

In a message dated 3/29/99 2:28:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
writes:

<< This way, they can stay in space and underground, where they belong, and
 not provide a counter-battery proof battlefield artillery that people can
 use to skeet-shoot grav tanks.
 
 Ian Whitchurch >>

yeah; but it kills CANON (pun intended...) meson artillery vehicles from
Striker all the way up to Striker II...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:50:10 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

>Subject: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4

>

>Just out of curiosity, do those of you who play T4 consider the QSDS and

>SSDS to be valid ship design systems (since they produce ships in

>variance with FF&S2)  I did some SSDS designs using the Akins

>spreadsheet, and want to know whether they would be worth posting to my

>site and/or the TML.


 Two requirements to be "valid" in my opinion:

 -use the most current (and presumably most correct) versions, both available
online.
 -make sure the ship description lets the reader know which rules were used.
For example: "Happy Fun Ball-13 (QSDS 1.5)"

 As long as these things are kept in mind, any of the design systems related
to Traveller are "valid."  Usefullness to all people is a hedgehog of another
color...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:45:50 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: (OT) Crusade

On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 Diespamer@aol.com wrote:

> If it ain't already been said: The show has already been cancelled by TNT.

How can a show be cancelled before it's even on!?!?  This would only make
sense to a Network Executive.

Arrrggg.
Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:02:02 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: GT: Far Trader Comments

	My copy of Far Trader arrived this past Friday and I had a chance to
look over it while I was taking a suborbital flight from the Atlanta
Starport to the LaGuardia Starport and back over the weekend.  I'd like to
offer congratulations to the authors of this book, since it's one of the
best sourcebooks for Traveller I've seen.  They managed to avoid getting
sidetracked most of the time, and stuck to the details of running a merchant
starship.  The artwork was great, especially Jesse's work.  I have a
question for Jesse.  Was the small picture of the woman walking away from a
ship with a small reptilian creature yours?  If so I want a digital copy for
my desktop!
	I would have to agree with other posts that this source book would
be great for any Traveller campaign, regardless of what system you use to
run it.  I hope the Starports and Starships products are of the same high
quality as this one.

		Alan Hatcher

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:54:54 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4

   I only use QSDS rules when designing ships for my T4 games.    Just lazy I
guess.


			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:13:53 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: Real weapons breakthrough

there is an article in this month's issue of Scientific American about a
man in Australia who has developed an electronic machine gun. It uses
tubes filled with alternating jacketless rounds and propellant. When an
electrical charge is applied, the first propellant explodes: this causes
(1) round behind the first propellant to expand, sealing the tube
against blowback, and (2) the first round to leave the barrel. The heat
and pressure behind the second rount set off the 2nd round's propellant,
etc...


THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and the stupidity
of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the universe is." (Albert
Einstein)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:57:59 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

In a message dated 3/28/99 8:49:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk
writes:

<< 
 And yes, I know no one specifically _says_ that they are as numerous as
 the old European nobility, but that's the way they are portrayed in the
 character generation rules and the various adventures...
 
  >>
	God,  if you take the character generation rules literally, then 1 out of
every 36 people is a Baron!

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:18:08 EST
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Delurking...

Hi,
I'm Bob Schaefer. Are there any Traveller groups in the N.E. NJ area? Also, I
noticed that there are several posters who use aol and I was wondering if
there were any Traveller rpg rooms in aol...I've seen Trek and B5 sim rooms
and a couple rpg sig's listed in Keyword but no Traveller....I'm not
interested in any sim's;they tend to be a bit 'hokey' and populated by Very
young fanatics... I preffer the finer detail that rpg's seem to have (and a
more sophisticated fanatisism:>))...

Another question....Who is Ditzie????

Thanx for tollerating a newbie,
Bob S....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:45:41 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

At 09:42 AM 3/27/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
>>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>>Subject: Re: max accel
>>
>
>>
>>No, I have not.  I have also not forgot those systems take up space and
>>weight that could be used for armor and weapons.
>
>Well, armour is one of the weak points of an airframe design - the extra
>surface area will increase the demand for area to be armoured.
>
>Now, you could play games with (say) a general 1cm hull, and a thicker
>'citadel' along the central fuselage that holds the pilot, weapons, power
>plant etc, but it could be ugly to have a penetrating laser hit on your
>wing at high speed.
>

True, but also true for any armor thickness at high speeds.

>>Also the aero fighter can be designed for greater in atmosphere speed than
>>the space fighter.  High speed in the atmosphere requires special design of
>>the buffeting and turbulence will tear the craft apart.
>
>The problem is high accuracy speed-of-light weapons (lasers, PAWs, Meson
>Guns) make atmospheric speeds irrelevant.
>
>They see you. Weapon fires. It hits.
>

True.

>Given this, the only things that saves you are armour, and not being seen.
>

See the Goast fighter from Pyramid.  Nasty.  Hypersonic and NOE.

>Thus, the either 'Happy Fun Ball' or the 'Be vewwwy qwiet we're hunting
>wabbits' <1> design concepts.
>
>The distances just arent long enough for speed-of-light lag to make agility
>important.
>
>>That was what I was discussing, sorry.  I reread the post but as I
>>understand it it the space fighter verse athmospheric fighter with all other
>>things being equal.  I have said this several times.
>
>My feeling is they'll both be Happy Fun Balls, but post up some optimised
>airframe designs for us to kick the tyres of.
>

See above for one published design for mech busting.

>>And nearly useless.  Space and atmosphere are two very different
>>enviroments.  In space you get 1000k temperture changes from light to dark.
>>In the atmosphere you have wind shear that can pancake a 747.  A sea gull
>>will total an SR71.  Think about a 3 pound object moving at a relative
>>velocity greater than a rifle bullet.  One small hole in the ships skin lets
>>in winds with the power of a tornado.
>
>To me, this says armour up and slow down.
>

Not a good idea for the inial drop.  Make you an eay target.

>Thus, the Happy Fun Ball, or the grav tank.
>

During interface both would be very visable and no amount of armor you can
hang on anything will stop a serious planetary defense cannon.

>>>>Forth, AA weapons.  Very mobile CG platforms for LOS AA batteries with
>VHROF
>>>>(lasers, PAWs, Meson guns).  Easy to move and hide.  The ramparts would be
>>>>clay pigeons anywhere in LOS. 
>
>Well, you get any two out of high output, high ROF and easy to hide.
>
>The other point to think of is these highly armed CG platforms are
>competing in the same air-superiority ecological niche as atmospheric
>fighters, except with the different strategy of maximising firepower rather
>than speed (they are at the other corner of the good old
>speed-protection-firepower triangle)
>

True.  I see them as either siting in the open with enough firpower to toash
anything they see or hiding and waiting for their shot them moving to
another prepared position like a sniper team.  Their CG is shut down most of
the time.  Perhaps they use surface effect instead to cut their signature.

>>>Read COACC if you can get a copy.
>>>
>>>PAWs have a problem in atmospheres.
>>>
>>
>>Then plazma or mason weapons.
>>
>
>Well, C-PAWs have big problems in atmospheres. N-PAWs get their problems in
>space.
>

On tank fusion gun design under GT posted on this group had high orbit
ranges and enough damage to get a Tygeress' attention.  Real big gun on a
real big tank.

>A quick look at the range function for Fusion/Plasma weapons in FFS2
>indicates they probably arent going to be able to get their maximum range
>out to line-of-sight.
>
>Meson guns ? Yeah. The weapon of choice for planetary defense everywhere.
>
>The other thing to stick in the back of your mind is Gravitic and Neutrino
>Sensors. Many of Ditzie's projects are based on the assumption that use of
>fusion, fusion+ and contragravity can be detected outside line of sight
>ranges.
>

Go chemical pumped (copper matrix chemical plazma) and non fusion power
systems or put you $$$s into shielding  IE: Hammerslammers  Then the tank's
main gun can open a space ship the space ships say back.  If the space ship
has tank level armor it will have little else.

>>Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
>>missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
>>would take them to arrive. 
>
>Ahhhh, the good old 'one shot per twenty minutes' assumption.
>

Always, had trould with that mechanic...

>See Striker's rules for point defense, or some more modern design sequence.
>
>> The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
>>safe from the space ships laser. 
>
>And their NPAW/Meson Gun, targetted on that nice active AEMS signal ?
>

Not posible.  RF make a very mushy point source.  Harm Missles yes as they
can corrrect as they close but RF is to defused a signal for long range
direct fire with pin point accurracy.  All it would take is a little
atmosphere interference or skip a you get nothing but air.  You need am
active lock of your own and then it who shoots first.

>> I find it a little hard to believe the far furture weapons systems
>>are as pourly integrated as they as portray to be in traveller.
>
>Ummm, see the Ortillery rules in Striker. Or in fact the Indirect Fire
>rules in Striker. Hell, see any desription of 'Forward Observer' skill,
>which Imperial Marines get in every generation of Traveller I can think of.
>

I was mostly refering to CT.  The weapon systems integration was very primative.

>>>BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
>>>than a plane.
>>>
>>
>>I dought it.  Drag would kill your speed. 
>
>With lasers, atmospheric speed is irrelevant.
>

Lasers can be countered by arisols and ablative armor.  I think in the end
energy weapons will have to go tward very high output and short duration.
In effect HE energy 'shells'.  Plazma/fussion guns most likely.  Lasers are
going to have a lot of trouble with real armor. (Heat dispersion.)  You'll
need the penetration/punch of an hypersonic ice pick with the stoping power
of HE.  Lasers are just not the best for this.  We may still be using direct
fire shells for a long time to take out heavy armor.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:45:53 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 10:35 PM 3/26/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Charles wrote:
>
>>>Taking a planet is going to be hard, I agree, but your argument has
>>>wandered from why a (TL8) F22 is better than a (TL15) Rampart in an
>>>atmosphere to why a TL15 Rampart will most likely be destroyed if attacking
>>>a TL15 world with TL15 designed airspace fighters.
>
>>That was never my argument.  My basic premise was that a TL15 space craft
>>would be no match for a TL15 air craft in the atmosphere.  I think that the
>>first poster had the other premise.  >
>
>
>The Original Post by Bloo....
>
>>>How about attack?  If I can pull 12Gs in my TL9 F22, and you can only
>>>pull 6Gs in your Rampart, I get to put my hullmounted weapons on you,
>>>and you haven't got a prayer of putting your hull-mounted weapons on me.
>
>On which everyone else was commenting and you posted a response. I
>erroneously assumed you were commenting on the same scenario (indeed,
>re-reading your post I still would assume that). But being corrected, I
>have just deleted the 20 min worth of response I'd been crafting. <sigh>
>
>>The TL15 space crafts laser would
>>decide the battle with the TL8 fighter plane provided it has the sensors to
>>use it in the atmosphere.  If the fighter get off his heat seakers the space
>>ship is toast.  Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
>>missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
>>would take them to arrive.
>
>Not actually true as the 40G superdense, space meteorite resistance armour
>on a Rampart will shrug off the damage. Bear in mind the laser on the
>Rampart can hit from thousands of kilometres.
>

Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.  And exactly
what is a G of armor?  Is that grams per square centimeter?  If so even
assuming colpsed tank armor steal double DR rampart go BOOM when the
sidewinder hits!  Shaped charge!

>> The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
>>safe from the space ships laser.  Their radar would not be bothered but most
>>space based sensors could not see through the clouds.
>
>The space fighter sits high in near orbit and hits the fighter from over
>the horizon...
>

IF it's sensors can target the fighter.  That's a big if.  Space and the
atmosphere are very different.  Why do you think they have to design
different systems to look at earth and the stars from orbit?

And the fighter is the target for anything on 1/8 of the planet.  You can
implace a lot of laser cannons on that much surface area.

>> Given the lack
>>integration shown in the imperial navy they could have a bad time of it
>>against todays US military.  Almost any of todays units can act as a pointer
>>for nearly any of our weapon systems.  A infantry man can target for 16'
>>navy guns, 200mm morters, tomahawks, bombs, howlitzers, tanks, and missles
>>with the same hand held device.  He can also call in self guided and seaking
>>weapons.  I find it a little hard to believe the far furture weapons systems
>>are as pourly integrated as they as portray to be in traveller.
>
>I agree, and on that basis your argument that the US military would be
>credible against a high TL force amuses me.
>

Well actually I have said several times that I ment a TL15 atmospheric
fighter against a TL15 space fighter in the atmosphere.  I do not think a
space fighter would last long agaist an equal tech level atmospherice
fighter in the atmosphere.

>>>BTW I believe a TL15 airsuperiority fighter is more likely to be a sphere
>>>than a plane.
>>I dought it.  Drag would kill your speed.  No matter how many Gs you have
>>you still have to deal with terminal velosity and wind effects.  A sphere
>>has a terminal velosity around 200-280 mph at one G.  That is the point when
>>air resistance cancel out acceleration.  The effect is non linear and goes
>>through some wierd permutations arround the speed of sound.  At those speeds
>>you are talking some serious design limitations.  One small mistake in your
>>surface geometry and the wind tears your ship apart.
>
>Generally I accept this argument, but remember that the Traveller armours
>are much much better than those on current air and land vehicles.
>

Huricanes and tornados total MBTs and neither of those have hypersonic wind
speeds.  As for armor getting better, yes it will but only in the aspect of
bulkyness not mass.  Armor works because of mass density.  Dense armor means
less volume more weight.  You'll reach limits of design where you can not
move your armor.  1 ton of colapsed steel still weighs 1 ton even at half
it's volume and 1 ton of steel with take only so many MJs to melt
regardless.  Colapsing with probably act like suface hardening and give
better protection against impact but I dought it will change the melting
point of and element greatly.  This could make titainium a very sought after
material.  Light strong and heat resistant to start with and when colapsed...

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:46:04 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

At 01:35 AM 3/27/99 +0000, you wrote:
>On 26 Mar, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>
>> >From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>
>> >Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
>> >missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than
>> >one turn it would take them to arrive. 
>
>> Ahhhh, the good old 'one shot per twenty minutes' assumption.
>
>> See Striker's rules for point defense, or some more modern design
>> sequence.
>
>No, just stick to CT.
>
>If the rampart's laser gets one fire action per twenty minute CT turn,
>then your F15 ... "carries the equivalent of one turret"
>(to paraphrase High Guard)
>So all its missiles combined only equal one factor 2 missile turret.
>
>If you figure firepower of the defences according to the CT abstract
>defence factor system and the attack in a TNE style missile by missile
>system, you should not be surprised if the results are incompatible.
>

I think that factor 2 is low.  Most modern fighter bombers can carry a lot
of ordence.  6+ missles at the low end.  For some 24 would not be out of
line.  I'm not sure about pylon and control limitations but weight would
alow thier carrage.  IIRC I saw one the the large carrier fighters armed
with 4 pylons of 3 missles and 2 single mounts on the wing tips.  WW2 is my
prefered era of military history so modern aircraft are not my area of
knowledge.  I wish I had my reference books with me at work right now!  All
I have with me is my PBY book.  It could carry 3000 lbs of ordinence (2
torpedos!) and it was a WW2 reconocence plane.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:46:15 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 02:51 AM 3/27/99 +0000, you wrote:
>On 26 Mar, steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Prevatte wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>
>> Go Charles!  I love this fight. Even though I understand less than I
>> thought.
>
>> > While we are at at this lets look at some ome the other support the
>> > aerofighter can expect.  How about a Iowa class battle ship with
>> > it's 16'
>> > guns replaces with type T mason guns, it's 5' guns replaced with type d
>> > mason guns, and all it AAs replaces with heavy rapid fire lasers.
>
>> Now that is an elegantly violent idea.
>
>No, it's an example of mixing up two incompatable rule systems and
>getting totally confused.
>
>A factor T meson gun is a High Guard spinal mount. That means you
>are using High Guard rules, so your Iowa class gets only one of them.
>It also means that you cannot put factor anything mesons in the 5"
>turrets, because it is not allowed.
>
>Note that the factor T is 7,000std (100,000m3). Adding a 1200 EP power

7000 displacement tons?  That is almost 2 turrets worth.  The BB would have
to go with say 3 type Ms then.  Or 1 type T replacing it's forward turrets
and a type K for the rear turret.

>plant and fuel gives 9,400std or about 130,000m3.

8000 tons fuel and fresh water for the boilers.  Boiler weight is not in my
book.

2 million gallons of fuel oil alone. (200,000m3 approximately)

>I'm not convinced this fits inside an Iowa, and you still need the crew,
>some armour, factor 9 meson screen, nuclear dampers, a 9 Fib computer
>and agility 6 or the Tigress will toast the Iowa.
>

10 inch armor belt.  Can not easily convert the others.  Maybe they would
replace the C3I, generaters, some of the boilers, and the desalination plant.

>If you use one of the later rule systems (which would allow multiple
>meson guns) the Factor T equivalent is closer to 300,000m3 (I kept the
>power input constant at 30,240MW and assumed 250m long and ROF100)
>This has a "barrel" diameter of over 18m.
>(T4 rules, yet it is still only T4/CUSP factor 16)
>
>I think that you'll agree that you cannot put even one of these in an
>Iowa, never mind 3 in each turret.
>

No, the ship could have one Type T only.

>On the other hand, if the factor T meson, is supposed to be a factor
>27 weapon in T4, then you end up with a tunnel so big you could put
>several Iowas into it, so I don't think that conversion would be correct.
>

IIRC the tigress is a 1Mega toner.

>Phil Kitching
>

I was saying main armament replaced with main armament but OK.


The USS North Carolia (BB55) "The ShowBoat".  (Have spec book in hand)

728 feet long.
108 feet Beam.
35 feet draft.

Crew 2,2339 (144 officers/2,195enlisted)

Displacement over 40,000 tons!  (Ship displacement has a different meaning
than Traveller displacement.)

She carries 3 main turrents that weigh 1,400 tons each (turret only not
support equipment).

Each turret had three 16 inch guns 72 feet long.

They fires a shell weighing 2700 pounds.

She has 16 5 inch 38 dual mount turrets. (32 guns)

60 40mm in quad mounts.

36 20mms in single and dual mounts.

3 Kingfisher scout planes.


Now some Guestimates.  The above numbers for size deals with the waterline.
More than half the ship is above the water so the aproximate volume is
around 800000+ cubic meters. (I've been aboard her it's probably a lot more.)

If you replace her main turrents with mason guns each would weight in at
about 3,500 tons if you replaces pound for pound. (Shell weight, powder
magazine, turrets, machinery, ect.)

The US alone had a dozen ships her equal in WW2.  Great Briton, and Japan
about as many.  Germany had 2 that I know of, Russia about 12 (equivalent)
at their best.  So say 50.  If you add 10 more for everybody else that's 60.
This does not count cruisers or aircraft carriers.

60 naval ships with 180 mason guns each weighing 3,500 tons.  That's a lot
of firepower!  Even if it were just 60 type Ts it would be bad!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:46:26 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 01:06 AM 3/27/99 EST, you wrote:
>> And if the fighter is designed at the same tech level so will the fighter.
>> If fact the fighter will be able to manuver better.  Your happy fun ball has
>> to use 1 G just to say in the air.  It has to use more of it's Gs to slow
>
>Not, it doesn't.  It's called Contra Grav.
>
>> down and turn.  The fighter can use it's wings to turn and manuver while
>> running it's engines at full output.
>
>The fighter *has to*.  The grav vehicle doesn't.
>
>> >You're forgetting G compensators as well as contragrav and thrusters.
>> 
>> No, I have not.  I have also not forgot those systems take up space and
>> weight that could be used for armor and weapons.
>
>Try designing a space fighter and atmosphere fighter (Striker or FFS) and say
>that again.  The atmosphere fighter is going to lose alot more space due to
>its airframing.
>

Air frame should provide spave not reduce it.  Wings give you space.

>> >weapon (or the ionisation shock). You are making the assumption that a
>> >space craft with advanced technology will behave the same way as a fighter,
>> >which is flawed IMO.
>> >
>> 
>> NO!  I'm saying that the space ship moves worse in an atmosphere.  How can
>
>It's called "airframe" which means the space ship *is* a plane.  Contra grav
>tech means canonically that airfraft and grav vehicles merge at TL13 (COACC).
>

Then the space fighter is NOT optimizes for space.  I mean each to be
optimized for their enviroment.

>> you say that with all other things being equal that a plane designed for max
>> performance in the atmosphere and one designed design for both space and
>> atmospheric flight will be equal in the atmosphere?  If they are or if the
>> space fighter is better the areo fighter designer was a moron!
>
>Let's play the design game.  I'll do the space fighter.  You do the
>aerofighter.  :-)
>

Depends of the system we would test them under.

>> Also, the space fighter pilot is not likely to be as good at atmospherice
>> combat as the aero fighter.
>
>Quite debatable.  Especially if this innovative concept of "airframe" is used
>on the space fighter.
>

An optimised space fighter would not have an airframe.  You are discussing a
aerospace fighter.

>> Also the aero fighter can be designed for greater in atmosphere speed than
>> the space fighter.  High speed in the atmosphere requires special design of
>> the buffeting and turbulence will tear the craft apart.
>
>One word.  "Airframe."  :-)
>

As in "for atmosphere"?   As in NOT a space fighter.  That was my point.

>> >>Third, what is to stop the fighter form mounting lasers?
>> >
>> >Ahem. Aside from the fact that this example was a F22 against a Rampart? If
>> >you want to change the frame of the discussion, that's fine. An F22
>> >couldn't generate enough power for the 250Mw laser.
>> >
>> 
>> Actually I ment an eqaul tech level fighter as I said.  A 5 tech level
>> difference would be insurmountable.  Let compare apple to apples.
>
>So design your apple.  The discussion was about an F22 against a Rampart.
>We're having the new discussion now, it seems.  :-)
>

Exactly.  That was MY premise.  TLs being eqaul a atmosphere optomised
fighter will beat a space fighter in atmosphere.

>> >No advantage at all. It needs forward motion to allow air to pass over the
>> >wing surfaces to generate lift, which is why planes stall.
>> >
>> 
>> So, what does that matter if it's weapon are a 360 degree threat.
>
>Err...  we have an LOS lightspeed weapon.  Don't *have* to face you and can
>hit you a helluva way off.  Manuever inside atmospheric against such weapons
>is unlikely to be able to evade a laser.  Reference the archived kkm
>discussions.
>

That was what I was saying.  We agree on this.

>> >Additionally, a wing based airbreathing engine like that on the F22 isn't
>> >going to be much use in orbit.
>> > 
>> >  
>> Of course not, but the fight will be in the atmosphere.
>
>Not in the premise of the original discussion.  It was claimed that Traveller
>space ships didn't have have high enough G endurance.  The combat situation
>was in space.  Then it lowered into an atmosphere where grav vehicles still
>have an advantage.  No stall, the ability to make all the aerodynamic
>maneuvers, loads more armor and heavy weapons.  An order of magnitude more
>distructive.  Being a space and atmosphere fighter.  Imagine that.
>

Somebody cut out that part and I assumed and stated that the fight was in
the atmosphere as there was no other place tha a space ship and an
atmospheric fighter could meet.  That part of my post was cut out also.

>> Nope, see above.  Also even if the rampart has CG so could at eqaul tech
>> level fighter but I dought it would.  The weight penalty would not be wouth
>> it.  A larger plane carrying armor and a heavy war load would be more cost
>> effective.  The plane would launch enough small fast missles to overload the
>> rampart one laser in the one round it would take for them to close with the
>> target.  On hit in the atmosphere and it's over.
>
>Who says?  That's ludicrous.  You do actually play the game right?  First
>design your atmosphere fighter.  Then run a combat and tell us the results.
>I've seen a few grav tank vs space military ships vs civilian space ships
>(trader class ships).
>

One real fighter can launch many real missles.  One CT traveller rampart can
fire it's laser only once.  I play CT and GT.  I have never seen rule to
copy a f15/f16/f18 in CT.

>> >Have some more missiles if you want but I'll take the Rampart and the laser
>> >battery.
>> >
>> 
>> I'll have a laser also, many several.  I can afford to with all that weight
>> of space use only equipment you are carring.
>
>You're going to have a design an atmosphere fighter with "many several" lasers

Sorry, maybe not many.

>and the performance you're hinting at.  I'd really like to see it and will
>consider that claim to be apocryphal until I do.
>

Easy fixed mount forward.  The Mitchal mounted 14 50 cal machine guns.

>>Why? The active set from a space vessel is going to be way more powerful
>>than an air based set.
>>
>> And nearly useless.  Space and atmosphere are two very different
>> enviroments.  In space you get 1000k temperture changes from light to dark.
>> In the atmosphere you have wind shear that can pancake a 747.  A sea gull
>> will total an SR71.  Think about a 3 pound object moving at a relative
>> velocity greater than a rifle bullet.  One small hole in the ships skin lets
>> in winds with the power of a tornado.
>
>When you design an *airframed* space fighter and put in atmospheric flight
>avionics (especially terrain following), you're taking all of that into
>account. 
>

True, but that is NOT a space fighter.  It's an aerospace fighter.  Not the
same thing.  But even then and aerospace fighter has to waste space that on
a atmospheric fighter can be use for other things.  Take two identically
designed aerospace fighters.  Remove from one all the space only systems and
replace them with systems useful in the atmosphere.  Now which of the two
will be more survivable in the atmosphere?  At the least add extra armor or
decoys.

>> The aircraft has an active set also.  And is the space set designed to deal
>> with the goasting caused by an atmosphere?  Is it designed to withstand the
>> buffeting of fast trastit through an atmosphere.  What about refected power?
>> Harmonic distotion?  Intermod?  Electrical storms?  And just how is a 40
>> foot in diameter space sensor dish going to survive 300+ mile per hour
>> winds?  And what is the wind load going to do to your manuverability?  Have
>> a looked at the physical size of workable space sensors in Bruces sensor
>> rules?  I seriosly dout that the space fighter will be able to use the same
>> set in the atmosphere he used in space.  The IR system will be nearly
>> usless.  Lidar will go with visibility.  That leaves you with radar the same
>> as the aero fighter.  And he is trained to use his IN the atmosphere, and
>> his is design to work IN his atmosphere.
>
>AEMS is everything that radar is and alot more.  Everything from longwave
>radio to gamma rays, and everything in between.  Far more advanced than
>anything in any plane today (though an awacs type job might have the advantage
>of dedicated equipment, though even that could probably be debated by the pure
>capabilities of integrated usage of EMS, densitometers, NAS, and LADAR sets
>that are common on good military ships of greater than 1k dt).  Putting that
>in a dedicated EW space fighter is more than possible.
>

Any why would you put systems in a craft you could not use?  Air and space
are different enviroment.  A pure space ship would not mount sensor only
really usefull in the atmosphere.  Why would a space fighter waste space and
money on a tropostatic scatter array?  It can not be used in space.

>> >Taking a planet is going to be hard, I agree, but your argument has
>> >wandered from why a (TL8) F22 is better than a (TL15) Rampart in an
>> >atmosphere to why a TL15 Rampart will most likely be destroyed if attacking
>> >a TL15 world with TL15 designed airspace fighters.
>> >
>> 
>> That was never my argument.  My basic premise was that a TL15 space craft
>> would be no match for a TL15 air craft in the atmosphere.  I think that the
>> first poster had the other premise.  The TL15 space crafts laser would
>> decide the battle with the TL8 fighter plane provided it has the sensors to
>> use it in the atmosphere.  If the fighter get off his heat seakers the space
>> ship is toast.  Under CT combat rules an F15 carries more than enough
>
>Except when you use the laser to pick off the heat seakers.
>

Good luck picking pop up smart missles up on you space optimised sensors at
night in a heavy fog.

>> missles to overload the fighter laser capacity for the less than one turn it
>> would take them to arrive.
>
>This has already been countered by someone else.
>

Nope, fighters carry more that 2 missles today.

>>  The fighter could fire from over the horizon or behind a clould bank and be
>> safe from the space ships laser.  Their radar would not be bothered but most
>
>Highly debatable.  The distance is paltry.  The range for full effect (in TNE
>it's 1/10-30, which makes a final pen value up to 312) in a standard
>atmosphere for the ramparts laser (144Mj) has a range of 6,000 km.  In a dense
>atmosphere, it's half that (3,000 km).  Maybe you think a cloudbank will cut
>the performance by even more than a "dense atmosphere"...  How much?  Cut it
>by a 1000 times and I can still get you from 6km.  Traveller space lasers are
>powerful.
>

And line of sight.  With the right gear the atmosic fighter can fire from
beyond LOS and still kill the space fighter.  Range is useless with a laser
if you do not have LOS.

><snip>
>> weapons.  I find it a little hard to believe the far furture weapons systems
>> are as pourly integrated as they as portray to be in traveller.
>
>Where is this portrayal?   You need a copy of RCVG, methinks.
>
>

What is RCVG?  Is it for CT or GT?

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #364
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 365



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Re: max accel
(OT) Crusade
Re: (OT) Crusade
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Request for shameless plug
GT Modular Starship Design System: two new hull types
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #360
Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality
Re: Request for shameless plug
Re: Traveller LARP?
Re: Far Trader Comments
Re: Delurking...and question for Ian
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: Valid Ship design systems
Re: max accel
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: laser fire through clouds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:46:39 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 02:45 AM 3/27/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>>Hardly. How are you going to deal with a "plane" that goes zipping by
>>>at mach 25? That's roughly 5 miles a *second*. Your guns are useless,
>>>because the Rampart is flying faster than the muzzle velocity. Your
>>>missiles are equally useless, since their top speed is too slow, and
>>>it'll be out of range long before they get up to it.
>>>
>>>Again, the G-rating for ships and the g-ratings for aircraft are
>>>measuring *totally* different things. 
>>>
>>>Think of a ship's g-rating as being the same as the "thrust to weight
>>>ratio" of a fighter. When you look at it that way *then* you realize
>>>that 6g is *awesome*.
>>
>> A couple of problems here.  The rampart as drawn does not have the wing
>> surface to turn in the atmosphere with an F16 or any other fighter.  In the
>> atmosphere aerodynamics are what count.
>
>I wasn't aware of the Rampart's configuration. I was making the
>(apparently unfounded) assumption that it was *intelligently* designed.
>:-)
>

Horible picture.  Looks more like a missle than a plane.  Very small control
surfaces and the 'bottom' is not shaped to make it a lifting body.

>> Next, while a rampart could be going mach 25 in space I dought that it could
>> do so in the atmosphere for more than the few seconds that reentry interface
>> takes to brake it.  The heat caused by air friction at that speed would melt
>> titanium if it were maitained for any real length of time.
>
>Well, the hulls of Traveller ships are a bit sturdier than that. And
>there are various means of dealing with the friction. Tiles like on the
>shuttle, playing games with electrostatic fields to "guide" the plasma
>around the hull instead of across it, and who knows what else. 
>

Only if you have true force fields capable od diverting matter.  The effect
are cause my moving a body through air at faster than sounds.  Lots of odd
things start to happen.

>BTW, titanium is *not* that high a melting point. Try something like
>tungsten carbide!
>
>As for your other points, they are ok, but I was concerned with his
>mistaken impressions about g-ratings and performance.
>

Yes, that true also.  Performance is definately a situational word.  A high
performance sail plane and a high performance fighter jet are very different.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:46:50 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

At 09:31 AM 3/27/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>
>> >       Hey! I've beem gypped! Somebody owes me either enough time for
>> >gaming OR a love relationship! Boy, whatta decision ...
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Try my solution, date a GAMER!  My SO is both a player and a GM.
>
>Does she have a sister?
>

Sorry but she's one of a kind in more ways than one.  Makes gift giving easy
though.  She like flowers, old silver jewlery(Siamese mostly), and....GAME
STUFF! in that order.  She's buried me the game and hobby stuff lately.  I
made the mistake of telling her I use to do scale modeling and she's gotten
me every SF space ship she could find.  She is currently serching for a
scale model of a cannoe and a English reverse trike car made some years ago.
Things used by various of her characters.  The canoe by a medevil
trapper/mage and the car by a modern horror mage/spirit talker.  The car was
inhabited by the spirit of Barron von Ricktoffein (spelling?).  You know,
"the bloody Red Barron of Germany."  Let's hope nobody discovers where those
missing Lewis guns went...

One of her chracters is a CT scout.  Do any of you have any ideas about
converting a Star Wars 'star destroyer' into a large scale traveller scout
ship?  How about replacing the 'command bridge' with a battle ships triple
turret or a modified tank turret?  Are there any good detail shots of the
turret or the landing gear articulation?  Would love to surprise her.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:47:01 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 02:33 PM 3/27/99 EST, you wrote:
>> >Not, it doesn't.  It's called Contra Grav.
>> 
>> Actually Gary, I looked into this: Contragrav is only a T4 and a TNE
>> artifact. MT uses 'antigrav modules' on ships below 20dt. This are
>> functionally a cross between CG and a T-Plate. The Rampart (MT design
>> version in Ref's companion, Arrival Vengeance) has the Anti Grav drive, not
>> T Plates. So I can see where Charles is coming from, even though his space
>> craft may have trouble landing if non-airframe. The Rampart is an Airframe
>> design.
>
>Hmm...  You're right.  How do these antigrav "modules" behave?  Just by the
>wording, it would imply it acts like CG.  I don't see anything in the SoM...
>
>> You'd better agree design systems, because I think you're talking either:
>> 
>> CT with HG and Striker.
>> MT with COACC
>> FFS1
>> or
>> FFS2
>
>Naturally, I'm most proficient with and prefer FF&S1.  I can manage MT &
>COACC, though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I try.  I have FFS2
>but have never used it for anything other than data mining for TNE.
>
>
>Gary
>

That's a problem then.  I play only CT and GT.  I dod not have a set of the
striker books any more.  They took a walk some time in the past. (sigh).  I
do have all the Gurps books though.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:05:14 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: (OT) Crusade

Diespamer@aol.com writes:
>Subject: (OT) Crusade
>If it ain't already been said: The show has already been cancelled by TNT.
>Various rumors abound on the reasons, but I think it's because TNT is finding
>it cheaper to recycle old shows than pay for new ones.

    It's also cheaper to put out stuff like Fake Wrestling and Roller Derby.

>Oh well, they'll show the 12 or so episodes that have been filmed. And there's
>always a chance that another network will pick it up.

    The SciFi Channel has made noise that they want it, but just don't have
the budget for it this year.
    Hopefully by they, my cheap cable company will carry the SciFi channel.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco." 
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:06:59 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: (OT) Crusade

Diespamer@aol.com wrote:

> Greetings:
>
> If it ain't already been said: The show has already been cancelled by TNT.
> Various rumors abound on the reasons, but I think it's because TNT is finding
> it cheaper to recycle old shows than pay for new ones.

Not according to the TNT B5 web site.  Crusade premiers in June--of course, you
may mean that there will be no other Crusade shows after the first fifteen or so.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:06:26 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

Charles Prevatte posted:
>
>>Given this, the only things that saves you are armour, and not being
seen.
>>
>
>See the Goast fighter from Pyramid.  Nasty.  Hypersonic and NOE.

Dang! Hypersonic *and* NOE?!?

Hope the pilot doesn't hiccup!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:18:17 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Request for shameless plug

> From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
> 
> Hi-
>   I think I may set a standard here- my wife, a non-gamer (so far) is backing
> me in opening a FLGS! Due to open in May. While she doesn't understand gaming,
> she knows how much I enjoy it so she pushed me to turn "my advocation into a
> vocation".
>    I'm about as lucky as a guy can be!
> J.LaRosee
> Owner of the soon to open Medieval Starship 

That's great!  Congratulations!  Now if you'll just tell us where it is,
some of us may become patrons.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:22:38 -0700
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: GT Modular Starship Design System: two new hull types

[I posted these proposals for Rob Prior on the Pyramid discussion boards,
but it seemed to me that they might be of more general interest. Hope the
tabs come out looking right.]


Open Frame Hull  [a simplification of a proposal I made earlier]:

An "open frame" starship would consist of an open frame hull and a number
of pressurized sections -- probably minimum 2 (bridge/crew and
engineering), up to as many as desired.

Choose your hull normally, from the table on p. GT151. Multiply surface
area by 0.001 at TL10, or 0.0004 at TL12; this gives the mass of the DR 100
open frame armor. Calculate cost per p. GT152. 

Select pressurized sections, also from the hull table. Do not use weight or
cost from the table. Instead, using the surface areas given, armor and seal
each section separately. Vehicle bays and cargo hold modules do not have to
be pressurized; all others must be included in a pressurized section.

[This puts open frame over the pressurized sections, but is the simplest
way to look at it. In keeping with High Guard the pressurized sections
should be limited to DR 100 as well, but VE2 does not require it.]


Asteroid Hulls  [based on David Pulver's "Designer's Notes" for GURPS
Vehicles 2/e]:

Asteriod Hull Table:
					Heavy				Extra-Heavy	
Tonnage	Vol 	Area 		Weight 		Cost 		Weight 		Cost (dton)		(cf)	(sf)		(ston)
	(MCr)		(ston)		(MCr)
10		5K	2K		36		0.144		48		4.8	
20		10K	3K		54		0.216		72		7.2	
30		15K	4K		72		0.288		96		9.6	
40		20K	5K		90		0.36		120		12	
50		25K	6.5K		117		0.468		156		15.6	
80		40K	8K		144		0.576		192		19.2	
100		50K	10K		180		0.72		240		24	
200		100K	15K		270		1.08		360		36	
300		150K	20K		360		1.44		480		48	
400		200K	25K		450		1.8		600		60	
600		300K	30K		540		2.16		720		72	
800		400K	40K		720		2.88		960		96	
1000		500K	45K		810		3.24		1080		108	
1200		600K	50K		900		3.6		1200		120	
2000		1.0M	60K		1080		4.32		1440		144	
3000		1.5M	80K		1440		5.76		1920		192	
4000		2.0M	90K		1620		6.48		2160		216	
5000		2.5M	110K		1980		7.92		2640		264	
10000		5.0M	170K		3060		12.24		4080		408	
15000		7.5M	230K		4140		16.56		5520		552	
20000		10M	280K		5040		20.16		6720		672	
30000		15M	360K		6480		25.92		8640		864	
50000		25M	510K		9180		36.72		12240		1224	
100000		50M	810K		14580		58.32		19440		1944	

 [The main difference between heavy and extra-heavy frame is the resulting
HT (health) of the ship.]

Asteroid Armor:

Multiply DR times surface area times 0.00035 to get armor weight in stons;
asteroid armor is free! Minimum DR 100; maximum DR = surface area. 

Alternatively, asteroid DR = (armor weight in stons x 2,857)/surface area.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:25:28 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #360

>>>>
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:22:15 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Missiles

>From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
>Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles (was re: max accel)
>
>Sounds like missiles in any version of Traveller with a 6G limit and
>non-nuclear pumped warheads are useless, assuming no handwaves.

Well, missiles dont have a 6G limit. They do have a limit, but it's
higher
than 6 gees.

You can do a fairly neat small x-ray laser, but basically, yeah,
missiles
are very much a secondary weapon system, suitable for use by and
against
civilians and auxilaries.

>AHA!  So, we develop a material that doesn't radiate heat until it
reaches
>an absurd temperature. 

Thats a big technology handwave. Right up there with contragravity,
nuke
dampers and jump drives. You are talking about messing with
thermodynamics.

>There will be many, many circumstances when the
>fighting will be out past 1 AU or in the presence of a star weaker
than Sol.
>Even then, the missile only needs to take it for a limited period, and
there
>is no guarantee of the "warhead" being towards the sun
>>>>
We don't have to mess with thermodynamics at all.  It is perfectly
acceptable to have a heat sink internally that you can dump excess heat
into.  This only works until the heat sink is at the same temperature as
whatever it is being the sink for of course.  So we have a perfectly
acceptable thermodynamic reason for LHyd in our missile design.  This
would not need to be anywhere near infinite in capacity, since all you
would need to worry about is a few 20 or 30 minute turns before the
missile would go into terminal/active guidance and be visible as an
emitter.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:26:44 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

>In mail you write:
>
>> Note that the type of fusion described is "Inertial Confinement" fusion,
>> whereas the fusion usually associated with the Traveller concept is
>> "magnetic confinement" fusion, like what is done here at MIT.
>
>And then there's "electrostatic confinement". There was an article
>about that in Analog a while back. Cute idea, based on *old*
>technology.

Just to set my own record straight, the type of fusion was not "inertial
confinement" in the sense that it is not placed in that category of fusion
science.  I couldn't get a straight (i.e.layman's) answer out of my sources
here as to what kind of fusion it was, given the choices, but I found out
that much.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:37:36 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Request for shameless plug

: > J.LaRosee
: > Owner of the soon to open Medieval Starship
:
: That's great!  Congratulations!  Now if you'll just tell us where it
is,
: some of us may become patrons.
:
: --Glenn

I'm not sure how closely Jay watches the list, so I'll venture a bit.
The store will be opening in O'Fallon, Illinois in mid-May.  An
invitation to the grand opening will be sent to all, but it's a bit too
soon yet, as he doesn't get the key to the store site until Wednesday.
He's been bouncing around some website ideas, too.  Maybe now would be a
good time to hear from the online community about what they would like
the website of their FLGS to have for them.  Hey, maybe there are some
ideas around for T-shirt designs, too?  Guys like Jay who are living
what many of us would consider a dream, still need practical help with
the basics.  It's hard to guess what customers want sometimes.  How
would you do it?

       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~


==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader

___________hosted_by___________
               www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:37:34 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller LARP?

>From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>> Damn, I've got the urge to do a LARP about that now.
>
>Now, that's an interesting comment.  How -would- one run a Traveller
>LARP?  Has it been done?  Does anyone have any plans to do so within
>the next year?  And, how do I get a copy of the rules so I can get in
>on this?  :)

Actually, I've found that the MET ( White Wolf's Minds Eye Theatre ) basic
mechanics can be applied to just about _any_ genre of game.

Just replace the Traveller stats and skills where Vtm has traits and such to
get the right feel.

The majority of the work in a LARP is providing the background materiel for
players to understand the culture and the character descriptions to get in
character, with Traveller that's pretty easy, as almost everyone knows
something about it or can generalize from Star Wars or other SF with
"Empires".

It doesn't really matter if they get the wrong idea aout the Imperium from
Star Wars, because there _are_ people in the Traveller universe that consider
the Imperium to be the big nasty, and any conflict is interesting in the plot.

Last major one I was involved with was a set-up for a table-top sci-fi game.
We played the various members and technical advisors to the UN Space Council
as we tried to decide who got sent on the First Contact mission.

Wolf Technologies, a private corporation that effectively controlled much of
Mars and had the only "jump" drive had discovered what was basically a probe,
and determined where it was transmitting to. And that was basically all we
knew about the aliens, though there were suspicions that Wolf wasn;t telling
us everything.

Some of us were realists and considered military capability a must, others
thought that was a bad thing to show on our first contact, and of course every
politico-cultural group wanted their own man / woman in the top job and at the
very least a representative on the team.

We were given briefings on the possible team members, none of whom were at the
meeting,  the area reps had full dossiers on their people, but could choose to
"edit" the truth if they felt a particular fact didn't help their candidate's
chances. At the end we all voted on the members of the team.

It was a lot of fun, and most of the evening was spent in political
maneuvering. Though I still remember the USAAF astronaut  (an "advisor" ) very
seriously telling me about the Roswell "incident" and how they might be in
trouble if the aliens found out about the autopsy.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:46:09 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Comments

The artwork was great, especially Jesse's work.  I have a
>question for Jesse.  Was the small picture of the woman walking away from a
>ship with a small reptilian creature yours?  If so I want a digital copy
for
>my desktop!


Yep, she was mine.  Both of 'em - kinda' funny as one of the two shots
wasn't going to be used originally, which is why I'd made the second one.
On page 23 is the second version that I'd done at Loren's request.  On page
91 is the original version.  That original version was also one of the shots
with motion blur on the ship in the background, and Loren and Steve had said
they didn't like 'em like that.  Go figure, but I'm certainly not
complaining!  :)   I'm not sure if a color copy of either shot exists, but
I'll check at home.  If yes, then I'll post a version on my site that
doesn't conflict with SJG copyright.  Just as an FYI, all of the CG shots in
there (35 of 'em I think...) were mine with the exception of that starfield
filler shot that's been around since the first G:T book.

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:56:18 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Delurking...and question for Ian

Another fine example of why Ian needs an Official Famile Spofulam website :)
I'll let Ian describe Ditzie as best he can, I just draw her....

Jesse




>Hi,
>I'm Bob Schaefer. Are there any Traveller groups in the N.E. NJ area? Also,
I
>noticed that there are several posters who use aol and I was wondering if
>there were any Traveller rpg rooms in aol...I've seen Trek and B5 sim rooms
>and a couple rpg sig's listed in Keyword but no Traveller....I'm not
>interested in any sim's;they tend to be a bit 'hokey' and populated by Very
>young fanatics... I preffer the finer detail that rpg's seem to have (and a
>more sophisticated fanatisism:>))...
>
>Another question....Who is Ditzie????
>
>Thanx for tollerating a newbie,
>Bob S....
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:59:21 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

At 02:06 PM 3/29/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte posted:
>>
>>>Given this, the only things that saves you are armour, and not being
>seen.
>>>
>>
>>See the Goast fighter from Pyramid.  Nasty.  Hypersonic and NOE.
>
>Dang! Hypersonic *and* NOE?!?
>
>Hope the pilot doesn't hiccup!
>
>

I guess the idea is if your weapon don't get them the sonic boom will.  They
ran through an attack on a mech carrier sub.  I think it was an ad for Gurps
Vehicles.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:55:17 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Valid Ship design systems

>>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>>Subject: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4
>>
>>Just out of curiosity, do those of you who play T4 consider the QSDS and
>>SSDS to be valid ship design systems (since they produce ships in
>>variance with FF&S2)  I did some SSDS designs using the Akins
>>spreadsheet, and want to know whether they would be worth posting to my
>>site and/or the TML.
>
>I'd prefer them rebuilt to FFS2 standards, but yeah I think they are valid.
>
>What I'd like is a percentage-based High-Guard type system, and a modular
>QSDS/SSDS system, both with components based on FFS2.
>
>I've got fragments of the High Guard system built ... it may or may not see
>the light of day soon.

I'm looking at doing a Java-based ship design suite partially to brush up my
Java skills for an upcoming project at work, but also because I want a ship
design system that lets you create deck-plans from stock components ( such as
the pieces in the Naval Architects manual ) and print them out

I have no idea if I'll _ever_ get that far, my character generator began in
text mode on a TRS-80 and I still haven't finished it !

I'd like to be able to write a system that determined the parameters of the
design sequence from an XML description of the system, allowing the same
general interface to be used for a ship design sequence, a small vehicle
design sequence or a character generatorm, with any really specific and techie
UI bits being able to be drawn in on the fly as Java Beans

I suspect that with this sort of architecture one could support FF&S,
QSDS/SSDS, Striker, High Guard, and possibly other rules system withiin the
same program.

I have all these dreams of "Ship Design Wizards" a la MS Office as well.

I'll probably die first, but assuming one wrote, say, a FFS2 sequence, does
anyone see a need to be able to choose whether errata were applied or not ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:01:30 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

>>Not actually true as the 40G superdense, space meteorite resistance armour
>>on a Rampart will shrug off the damage. [...]
>
>Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.  And exactly
>what is a G of armor?  [...]


40G is a MegaTraveller term for a hull with an armor value of 40 made of
material code G (bonded superdense, IIRC). It is the equivalent to 33 cm of
hard steel.

>If so even
>assuming colpsed tank armor steal double DR rampart go BOOM when the
>sidewinder hits!  Shaped charge!


Sidewinders do not have shaped charge warheads. AIM-9 Sidewinder, for
example, has a proximity-fused conventional blast fragmentation warhead
weighing 20.8 pounds (9.36 kg). In fact, AFAIK no AAM has a shaped-charge
warhead, since their targets (other aircraft) are not armored.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:59:51 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 March 1999 06:57
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette


>In a message dated 3/28/99 8:49:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
><< 
> And yes, I know no one specifically _says_ that they are as numerous as
> the old European nobility, but that's the way they are portrayed in the
> character generation rules and the various adventures...
> 
>  >>
> God,  if you take the character generation rules literally, then 1 out of
>every 36 people is a Baron!

Not quite,  it's one in 6 cubed or one in every 216 people. 
Still way too high of course.

Frankie




> Dave Nelson
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:26:30 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: laser fire through clouds

> >>[clouds block lasers]
> >They do?  Maybe TL-8 lasers, but they aren't going to do much to a grav
> >focused laser.  ***Not on the scale of planetary combat.***
<snip example>

> I'm normally the advocate of lasers-as-the-ultimate-weapon, but the one
> thing they won't do is shoot through clouds. Clouds are (you may have
> noticed this) opaque. They absorb and scatter light. A laser beam, no
> matter how it's focussed or what kind of adaptive correction it has, will
> get absorbed and scattered rapidly. This is probably one reason why

The emphasis of my point is above.  While I could be easily persuaded to
concede that the TNE/FF&S laser performance is "too generous" (especially w/
thousands of km in a dense atmosphere), I would need specifics on the effects
of clouds, etc, especially given what we know Traveller lasers are capable of
(most prominently, burning through a bonded superdense hull hundreds of
thousands of kilometers distant in vacuum, as well as some role in orbital
bombardment and planetbound useage).  What is a couple hundred km of
atmosphere, much less mere meters of a cloud, compared to that?

What would you think is reasonable for a "clear dense atmosphere",cloudy dense
atmosphere, clear standard atmosphere, cloudy dense atmosphere,etc?
Specifically for a TL-12 100-Mj laser.  If it has a maximum effective range
(in FF&S/TNE) of 324,000 km in a vacuum, how much should a cloud dissipate it?
Obviously this should have something to do with the dimensions and exact
composition of the cloud in question.  A storm cloud will have a different
effect than an "ordinary fluffly" one, no?  How much should a cloud have an
effect over the "normal" effects of a standard atmosphere?  

If I did 3G3 right (never tried before now) merely requires the laser to have
a minimum diameter of 449mm, when in an atmosphere, which is a dwarf compared
to the 3.6 meter focal array I put on the ad hoc FF&S/TNE one, ignoring grav
focusing.  About an 8th of it actually.   I get a range in the 10s of km (RC 5
to 6).

Some GURPS Gearhead wanna tell what GV2 lasers are capable of?  Anything for
clouds in there?

I'm ignoring that I could possibly maneuver to where the cloud isn't an
obstacle (possibly with assistance to "corner" the target) and Traveller
lasers have been portrayed as having a usage in planetary combat, even in
AFVs.  On a clear day, there definately shouldn't be a problem...

> plasma weapons are more common than lasers for atmosphere craft/grav
> tanks...

Yup.  High energy weapons do seem the most prominent, especially in grav AFV's
(though lasers make appearances in the armaments of these,too), despite the
extreme effectiveness of CPRs (and the ETC subset) and MDs using advanced
materials for KE weaponry (APFSDSCI,SD,BSD,CBSD, etc etc) and the capabilities
of autoloaders at higher TL's.  I don't have a problem with any of this,
though.  There can be numerous rationalizations/handwaves for that.  With the
TL caps (amongst others) for lasers, it becomes more desirable to use high
energy energy weapons, at least for the primary armament.


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #365
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 366



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)
The USS North Carolina as an ED-6 (Re: max accel)
Re: max accel
Re: (OT) Crusade
Re: OT re: CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: Missiles
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Garbage
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: Stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:26:35 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

> >When you design an *airframed* space fighter and put in atmospheric flight
> >avionics (especially terrain following), you're taking all of that into
> >account.
>
> True, but that is NOT a space fighter.  It's an aerospace fighter.  Not the
> same thing.  But even then and aerospace fighter has to waste space that on
> a atmospheric fighter can be use for other things.  Take two identically
> designed aerospace fighters.  Remove from one all the space only systems and
> replace them with systems useful in the atmosphere.  Now which of the two
> will be more survivable in the atmosphere?  At the least add extra armor or
> decoys.

You can put an airframe on a space fighter and still have a 'space fighter,'
just like you can airframe a free trader or scout ship.  The Rampart *is* an
airframed space fighter.  Airframe allows higher atmospheric speeds and
maneuvering.  The cost in the design is easily justified if you want a space
fighter that can double as an interface/air support platform.  This appears to
be what the Rampart is, as it's referenced on Imperial TOEs (in Striker II) in
a ground support role. 

> >AEMS is everything that radar is and alot more.  Everything from longwave
> >radio to gamma rays, and everything in between.  Far more advanced than
> >anything in any plane today (though an awacs type job might have the
advantage
> >of dedicated equipment, though even that could probably be debated by the
pure
> >capabilities of integrated usage of EMS, densitometers, NAS, and LADAR sets
> >that are common on good military ships of greater than 1k dt).  Putting
that
> >in a dedicated EW space fighter is more than possible.
>
> Any why would you put systems in a craft you could not use?  Air and space
> are different enviroment.  A pure space ship would not mount sensor only
> really usefull in the atmosphere.  Why would a space fighter waste space and
> money on a tropostatic scatter array?  It can not be used in space.

If they're being put in, they're going to be used.  They'll be used in an
interface/ground support craft.  All of the above can be used in space, as
well.  Should be usable anywhere.  Why would u want them?  The EW game should
be vitally important for far future combat.  The NAS is the least required and
has limited application.

> >Except when you use the laser to pick off the heat seakers.
>
> Good luck picking pop up smart missles up on you space optimised sensors at
> night in a heavy fog.

I'll see them from many km off w/ my AEMS and easily pick them off w/ my
laser.  And in case, you missed the above, EMS covers everything "dirtside" I
need, though you could make a case that the avionics are required to make
sense of it in an atmosphere.

> >Where is this portrayal?   You need a copy of RCVG, methinks.
> 
> What is RCVG?  Is it for CT or GT?

Regency Combat Vehicle Guide for TNE.  I've never seen the poor integration of
Traveller high tech weapon systems, that you claim.  RCVG is at least one
example (Striker II another) where every kind of vehicle is there (support,
meson artillery, tanks, apcs, etc all grav).  From what I've heard, Striker
would be another.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:30:22 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

In a message dated 3/29/99 4:09:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< 
 Not quite,  it's one in 6 cubed or one in every 216 people. 
 Still way too high of course.
 
 Frankie
  >>
No,   a "12" on 2d6 is a 1 in 36 chance.

				1/6 x 1/6 = 1/36.


				Dave Nelson					

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:41:07 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)

> One of her chracters is a CT scout.  Do any of you have any ideas about
> converting a Star Wars 'star destroyer' into a large scale traveller
> scout
> ship?  How about replacing the 'command bridge' with a battle ships
> triple
> turret or a modified tank turret?  Are there any good detail shots of
> the
> turret or the landing gear articulation?  Would love to surprise her.

Actually, yes.  I'm working (on and off - mostly off) on such a conversion.

Here's what I've done so far:

I've estimated the scale of that model at (IIRC) about 15mm scale.

Take everything off the hell (no engines, superstructure, etc) so you just
have the wedge left.

Turn it over - see that bubble bulge in the middle?  That's where I'm
putting the turret.  I've bashed a turret out of a table-tennis ball and a
couple of old GDW plastic marine's weapons.

Most of the rest is fairly simple.  Sheet styrene for the airlock and
air/raft hanger door.  I'm building up too thrust plates out of thick wood
disks.  Landing gear might be a problem...I'm thinking of scavenging them
from my old Millenium Falcon model.  Don't know yet.

More (maybe) to come...

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:43:33 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: The USS North Carolina as an ED-6 (Re: max accel)

>The USS North Carolia (BB55) "The ShowBoat".  (Have spec book in hand)
>
>728 feet long.
>108 feet Beam.
>35 feet draft.
>
>Crew 2,2339 (144 officers/2,195enlisted)
>
>Displacement over 40,000 tons!  (Ship displacement has a different meaning
>than Traveller displacement.)

[...]

>Now some Guestimates.  The above numbers for size deals with the waterline.
>More than half the ship is above the water so the aproximate volume is
>around 800000+ cubic meters. (I've been aboard her it's probably a lot more.)


Hmm. Your guestimate is off by at least factor of ten, unless I miss my
guess. If she displaces 40,000 tons of water, then she pretty much masses
40,000 tons. I'm pretty sure that an armored battleship is going to have a
higher density than 1 ton per 20 cubic meters.

Lets look at it another way.

Using your numbers, let's pretend the North Carolina is a box 728 feet
(approximately 220 meters) long, 108 feet wide (33 meters or so), and 90
feet tall (2 x draft and then some, about  27 meters). This would give her
a volume of  (220 x 33 x 27) 196,020 cubic meters, or about 14,000
displacement tons in HG terms. About the size of a small Imperial escort
destroyer.

And she is not a box, so her volume is less than this.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
Junior Gearhead 3rd class
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:48:04 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

>Air frame should provide space not reduce it. Wings give you space.

Every system (FFS1&2, SSDS, QSDS) I have seen assumes volume and 
calculates area. That is if you want airframe you pay for more surface 
area. So wings gives you area.

>>>NO!  I'm saying that the space ship moves worse in an atmosphere.  
>>It's called "airframe" which means the space ship *is* a plane. 
>>Contra grav tech means canonically that airfraft and grav vehicles 
>>merge at TL13 (COACC).
>
>Then the space fighter is NOT optimizes for space. I mean each to be
>optimized for their enviroment.

Then the ships wouldn't be able to combat each other.
I think you are assuming different things. A pure space ship is 
unstreamlined and cannot enter the atmosphere so it can't fight the 
aeroplane except from orbit. A USL fighter would of course not have 
atmospheric sensor. The current discussion is pretty futile.

<SNIP of many kb of such futile discussion>

A more interesting discusion would be a pure atmospheric fighter
vs a multirole space fighter. The atmospheric fighter would have an
edge but how large (thin?) would it be? My SWAG would be that the
aeroplane is not _that_ much better (probably cheaper and smaller 
though).
 
I think there are several examples of atmosphere capable fighters in one 
of the THUDDD:s.

>What is RCVG?  Is it for CT or GT?

It's TNE. RCVG = Regency Combat Vehicle Guide

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:18:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: (OT) Crusade

"Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net> wrote:

>> If it ain't already been said: The show has already been cancelled by TNT.
>
>How can a show be cancelled before it's even on!?!?  This would only make
>sense to a Network Executive.

Not cancelled as such - placed in a holding pattern awaiting ratings IIRC.
Bear in mind Crusade has not had a pilot and they probably had a limit to
the investment they wanted to make before they continued.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:15:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT re: CRUSADE PREMIERES IN JUNE!

"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com> wrote:

>> I notice that they've put production of anything past the first thirteen
>> episodes on hold until they see how the ratings are.
>
>Oh, great.  I really hope they put it on at a time that will allow them to
>get decent ratings!  Ten or eleven at night is not the best time to run a
>show like that.

There's a note at www the station.com (not sure exact spelling) from JMS on
the topic. Apparently TNT told them not to destroy the sets, as it seemed
likely it would be back.

In the UK there was a cut version at 10am on Sunday in kids show, and the
full version (unadvertised) after 12 midnight some weeks later.

Not good.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:36:38 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.  And exactly
>what is a G of armor?  Is that grams per square centimeter?  If so even
>assuming colpsed tank armor steal double DR rampart go BOOM when the
>sidewinder hits!  Shaped charge!

40 - minimum armour on a space going vessel
G is type of armour. eg superdense.

Someone here can probably translate the 40 into something more meaningful.

And collapsed superdense on the Rampart is designed to take micrometeorites
as a minimum, plus provide harden rad shielding from flares. I suspect that
most usual starship armour will shrug off the equivalent to a sidewinder
shaped charge.


>IF it's sensors can target the fighter.  That's a big if.  Space and the
>atmosphere are very different.  Why do you think they have to design
>different systems to look at earth and the stars from orbit?

Because the earth is illuminated by a large fusion reactor so a great
source of reflected light, whereas the stars are point sources of emmitted
radiation? :-)

>>Generally I accept this argument, but remember that the Traveller armours
>>are much much better than those on current air and land vehicles.
>Huricanes and tornados total MBTs and neither of those have hypersonic wind
>speeds.

I'm assuming you're talking about weather effects here, not the Hawker and
Panavia aircraft.

Maybe so, but I have never come across an example of a 65 Tonne MBT being
thrown around by a hurricane. However, I don't live in a region where I get
that kind of news. I don't actually see what you are postualting and how it
links back to the original text. Hurricanes will do damage by throwing
around a vehicle as a unit, not by bursting a hole into the body and
exploding it.

> As for armor getting better, yes it will but only in the aspect of
>bulkyness not mass.  Armor works because of mass density.  Dense armor means
>less volume more weight.

Nope. Less volume same weight. Conversely, my cm of superdense is
significantly stronger than your cm steel because (1) there is more
material and (2) the bonds are manipulated to strengthen or align the
material - hence bonded superdense.

>You'll reach limits of design where you can not
>move your armor.  1 ton of colapsed steel still weighs 1 ton even at half
>it's volume and 1 ton of steel with take only so many MJs to melt
>regardless.

But playing with the bonds and material structure enhances the material
beyond a straight dimensional compression.

>Colapsing with probably act like suface hardening and give
>better protection against impact but I dought it will change the melting
>point of and element greatly.

Whereas I believe playing with the atomic structure of the material is
likely to significantly alter the melting point, elasticity, and hardness,
not to mention the heat transfer ability.

>This could make titainium a very sought after
>material.  Light strong and heat resistant to start with and when colapsed...

Do you sell titanium? ;-)

Maybe, but from the references I've seen for Traveller I'd take the
superdense. It's significantly better, even at the same thickness.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:54:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>>Note that the factor T is 7,000std (100,000m3). Adding a 1200 EP power
>
>7000 displacement tons?  That is almost 2 turrets worth.  The BB would have
>to go with say 3 type Ms then.  Or 1 type T replacing it's forward turrets
>and a type K for the rear turret.

a Traveller displacement ton is the volume occupied by 1 ton of liquid
hydrogen. It is a *volume* not a mass. It is not comparable to the IOWA's
displacement, which IIRC refers to the tons of water displaced, which is a
mass. The densities are different.



>728 feet long.
>108 feet Beam.
>35 feet draft.
>
>Crew 2,2339 (144 officers/2,195enlisted)
>
>Displacement over 40,000 tons!  (Ship displacement has a different meaning
>than Traveller displacement.)

>Now some Guestimates.  The above numbers for size deals with the waterline.
>More than half the ship is above the water so the aproximate volume is
>around 800000+ cubic meters. (I've been aboard her it's probably a lot more.)

728 feet (converting approximately to metres by dividing by 3) = 242m
108 feet = 36m
35 feet = 12m

Say this equates to a rectangle 242 x 36 x 12 = 104544 m3

14m3 = 1dt

so your ship displaces 7467 dt in Traveller terms. You can only just fit a
type T in the shell of the ship.

Say we double the beam and assume that you ship has as much volume above
the water line as below =

we still only have 210,000 m3. Your 800000m3 assume 7/8 of the ships volume
is above the water.  800,000m3 is 58kdt equivalent.

Frankly, I disbelieve that much of the volume is above the waterline this.

To power a TL15 Type T requires 1200 dt of power plant at TL15. We still
have no hull, no bridge, accomodation, fuel, drives or armour. I leave it
for you to calculate the minimum size required just to service a single
Type T (50 weapons crew = 100 dt of staterooms, plus the PP crew (12 more
crew).

And from another post:

>One real fighter can launch many real missles.  One CT traveller rampart can
>fire it's laser only once.  I play CT and GT.  I have never seen rule to
>copy a f15/f16/f18 in CT.

It's called Striker! and has a complete design sequence.
Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:26:32 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missiles

> >Original FF&S is pretty explicit that HEPLaR was just a heat exchanger that
> >could be powered by any kind of power plant.  All it is is heating lhyd to
a
> >plasma and expelling it out the back.
> 
> This is what annoys me - T-plates were handwaves, but so is HEPLaR. <sigh>

It's just HEPlaR is a 'better' handwave.  ;-)  lol.  No violations of any
fundamental laws and you got to keep track of your gas.  Course, if you did it
with the ridiculous pre-FF&S power plants, you should be able to handle it.  I
can buy some of the T-plate arguments (after all, IMTU they come in at TL-17),
but they just seem weak compared to HEPlaR.  It's a personal preferance thing,
though the claim that HEPlaR is flawed is quite debatable, though.  

As far as using a plasma focus as a weapon?  I dunno... from the descriptions
I would doubt it.  There is a fusion reaction taking place, but outside of the
"ignition chamber," supplying the extra energy.  The upper limit IIRC is
supposed to be around 1/3 c.  Lasers, PAWs and MGs would still have the upper
hand.  Maybe for close range (inside 1 BL/BR hex) or fighters or something.
Back to HG1 drive attacks, possibly.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:48:12 EST
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

Is it not  possible that most of the titles handed out by the Imperial Royals
are are not inheritable? The Royal Family in England is famous for handing out
'titles' to singers(Elton Lohn) and actors (Michael Redgrave) that can't be
passed on to their heir's....The British Isle's might become top heavy with
Nobility otherwise...
Just a thought,

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:07:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)

Moody, Danny M. wrote:
> 
>
> Actually, yes.  I'm working (on and off - mostly off) on such a conversion.
> 
> Here's what I've done so far:
> 
> I've estimated the scale of that model at (IIRC) about 15mm scale.
> 
> Take everything off the hell (no engines, superstructure, etc) so you just
> have the wedge left.
SNIP
> More (maybe) to come...
> 

GIF! GIF! GIF!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:09:11 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

>Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:03:11 EST
>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com

>There aren't any canon designs that have drop tank equipped ships w/o internal
>tankage are there?  This is what needs to be outlawed by the design systems
>IMO.  The rest can be solved by the Gearheads.

Rather than coming up with a new theory and then coming up
with a number of reasons why it can't do what one would expect
I would just not have them in first place.

New gimics are fun at first.  Then you become used to them.
But any problems they may have continue to permeate through
a setting.

>Going on the TNE Gazelle, it has better jump performance w/o the tanks than
>with (J5 vs J3), as the greater displacement requires more fuel per jump
>level, which follows by common sense.  The Supplement 9 Gazelle still is still
>capable of J2 w/o the drop tanks...
>
>Here's my take:  J2 worth (at the higher displacement) is used at the
>*instant* of jump, the drop tank's fuel is transfered to the internal tankage
>and then the tanks ditched giving lower displacement, to be consumed during
>the jump, which original FF&S' treatment handles well.  How's that?

If I follow what you are saying, you are talking about "demountable"
tanks.  You strap them on and jump with a higher displacement.
When you get to your destination, you pop them off and use your
remaining fuel to jump at a lower displacement.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:13:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/29/99 4:09:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:
> 
> <<
>  Not quite,  it's one in 6 cubed or one in every 216 people.
>  Still way too high of course.
> 
>  Frankie
>   >>
> No,   a "12" on 2d6 is a 1 in 36 chance.
> 
>                                 1/6 x 1/6 = 1/36.
> 
>                                 Dave Nelson

Also, before people start going off on this...player character
generation in no way is supposed to be indicative of the general
population of the OTU. Remember Travellers are those rare people who go
jaunting about the universe having adventures, instead of the 99.99% of
the rest of the people who have an 8-5er in their home city on their
home planet. That makes barons at .0003% (more or less) of the
population.

Given the what, 20 trillion population of the Imperium, there are still
waaay too many barons, though...something like 4 million or so...




- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:27:54 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

Frankie writes:
"> God,  if you take the character generation rules literally, then 1 out of
>every 36 people is a Baron!

Not quite,  it's one in 6 cubed or one in every 216 people. 
Still way too high of course."

	Do you use 3D for social standing? The odds of rolling 12
	on 2D is (1 in 6) x (1 in 6) or 1 in 36. Of course, you
	can argue that not everybody who has that social standing
	necessarily has the family title. Anyways this is meant to 
	reflect the incidence of nobles in the ranks of Travellers, 
	not in the general population. (in Traveller, can come up 
	with a rational for everything, almost)

Peez, AKA Ian,
to avoid confusion with the other Ian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:28:07 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Stuff

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: No minimum length on Meson Guns
>
>In a message dated 3/29/99 2:28:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
>writes:
>
><< This way, they can stay in space and underground, where they belong, and
> not provide a counter-battery proof battlefield artillery that people can
> use to skeet-shoot grav tanks.
> 
> Ian Whitchurch >>
>
>yeah; but it kills CANON (pun intended...) meson artillery vehicles from
>Striker all the way up to Striker II...

Actually, no.

The Battlefield Meson Gun in Striker is TL15, and a very big mother.

Striker II ? I dont know.

The problem is battlefield meson guns at TL11 combine with the zero-delay
Inderect Fire Control Centers and Map Boxes, and you give a forward
observer instant ability to call down fire instantly to any point.

I dont have a problem with this being bleeding-edge TL15, but we are
talking about a set of technologies that is a thousand years old by the end
of the Third Imperium.


>From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
>Subject: Delurking...
>
>Hi,
>I'm Bob Schaefer.
>
>Another question....Who is Ditzie????

Ditzammer Spofulam is the Vice-President of the High Energy Solutions
division of Famile Spofulam.

She is very young, very smart, and only kept sane by huge quantities of
little yellow pills.

Her designs tend to push the envelope of high-energy solutions.

Recent designs include the Rappoteur 4 million joule man-poertable emplaced
plasma bazooka, the Signature class laser (one shot per 2.5 seconds at 250
or 600 megajoules, fits into a 3 or 6 dton standard turret) and 'Ditzie's
Little Helper', a 140mm Gauss Gun that propels 30 kg slugs at 4 km/second.

>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters
>
>>Now, you could play games with (say) a general 1cm hull, and a thicker
>>'citadel' along the central fuselage that holds the pilot, weapons, power
>>plant etc, but it could be ugly to have a penetrating laser hit on your
>>wing at high speed.
>>
>
>True, but also true for any armor thickness at high speeds.

It's penetrating hits that rip a hole in your surface.

>>They see you. Weapon fires. It hits.
>>
>
>True.
>
>>Given this, the only things that saves you are armour, and not being seen.
>>
>
>See the Goast fighter from Pyramid.  Nasty.  Hypersonic and NOE.
>

Why spend the resources on making it hypersonic then ?

>See above for one published design for mech busting.
>
I dont dispute it's a design. I dispute that it's efficient to spend
resources on the hypersonic bit.

>>Thus, the Happy Fun Ball, or the grav tank.
>>
>
>During interface both would be very visable and no amount of armor you can
>hang on anything will stop a serious planetary defense cannon.

Dont land without an adequate planetary bombardment. The other option is to
have a disposable ablative shell (with many decoys) ... the ship comes in
at some velocity, spews out a number of these shells. Once you are deep in
the atmosphere you touch off the solid rockets to kill your velocity and
get to NOE *fast*.

>>The other point to think of is these highly armed CG platforms are
>>competing in the same air-superiority ecological niche as atmospheric
>>fighters, except with the different strategy of maximising firepower rather
>>than speed (they are at the other corner of the good old
>>speed-protection-firepower triangle)
>>
>
>True.  I see them as either siting in the open with enough firpower to toash
>anything they see or hiding and waiting for their shot them moving to
>another prepared position like a sniper team.  Their CG is shut down most of
>the time.  Perhaps they use surface effect instead to cut their signature.

Fine by me. Indicates a massive lack of need for a hypersonic
air-superiority fighter.

>>Well, C-PAWs have big problems in atmospheres. N-PAWs get their problems in
>>space.
>>
>
>On tank fusion gun design under GT posted on this group had high orbit
>ranges and enough damage to get a Tygeress' attention.  Real big gun on a
>real big tank.

Yep. In FFS2, the damage formula for a fusion gun is 40* sqrt(Output), as
compared to 3.6 * sqrt(Output) for lasers and 7.2 * sqrt (Output) for PAWs.

Clearly, fusion guns rule the atmosphere.

>Go chemical pumped (copper matrix chemical plazma) and non fusion power
>systems or put you $$$s into shielding  IE: Hammerslammers  Then the tank's
>main gun can open a space ship the space ships say back.  If the space ship
>has tank level armor it will have little else.

Not true actually. You can build damn thick armour with the amount of
newtons contragravity and t-plates put out.

>>And their NPAW/Meson Gun, targetted on that nice active AEMS signal ?
>>
>
>Not posible.  RF make a very mushy point source. 

At TL7-8, maybe. As TLs go up, it gets better, especially if you can
triangulate.

>I was mostly refering to CT.  The weapon systems integration was very
primative.

CT has Striker as the ground combat module. It improves that aspect a lot.

>Lasers can be countered by arisols and ablative armor. 

Aerosols ? At hypersonic speed ?

Ablating armour ? At hypersonic speed ?

> I think in the end
>energy weapons will have to go tward very high output and short duration.
>In effect HE energy 'shells'.  Plazma/fussion guns most likely.  Lasers are
>going to have a lot of trouble with real armor. (Heat dispersion.)  You'll
>need the penetration/punch of an hypersonic ice pick with the stoping power
>of HE.  Lasers are just not the best for this.  We may still be using direct
>fire shells for a long time to take out heavy armor.

Not once plasma guns come along. They can put out seriously scary amounts
of damage at moderate ranges, and dont have the problems solid shots do
with point defense weapons.

>And the fighter is the target for anything on 1/8 of the planet.  You can
>implace a lot of laser cannons on that much surface area.

Emplaced anything on the surface gets mesoned to death from multiple light
seconds away.

>7000 displacement tons?  That is almost 2 turrets worth.  The BB would have
>to go with say 3 type Ms then.  Or 1 type T replacing it's forward turrets
>and a type K for the rear turret.
>

Charles, one of the most basic things about Traveller is a displacement ton
is 14 cubic meters. It is not a metric ton.

>No, the ship could have one Type T only.

In any case it gets seen and fried from multiple light seconds.

>Now some Guestimates.  The above numbers for size deals with the waterline.
>More than half the ship is above the water so the aproximate volume is
>around 800000+ cubic meters. (I've been aboard her it's probably a lot more.)

800 000 m3 is approximatly 50 000 dtons. She's about the size of a Light
Cruiser.

>60 naval ships with 180 mason guns each weighing 3,500 tons.  That's a lot
>of firepower!  Even if it were just 60 type Ts it would be bad!

Not if they cant dodge. And they cant ... at least not fast enough to make
a difference.

>Air frame should provide spave not reduce it.  Wings give you space.

Charles, the way 'volume' works in Traveller is your maximum dimensions,
not your internal volume. In any case, wings massivly add to your surface
area which in most cases is *bad*. 2mm of aluminium just doesnt cut it when
you can have lasers that can be dragged by the squad's motorbike.

>Then the space fighter is NOT optimizes for space.  I mean each to be
>optimized for their enviroment.

The optimised aerospace fighter is in fact a grav tank. Low speed, heavy
armour, optimised for NOE. Any other design is dead meat.

>Any why would you put systems in a craft you could not use?  Air and space
>are different enviroment.  A pure space ship would not mount sensor only
>really usefull in the atmosphere.  Why would a space fighter waste space and
>money on a tropostatic scatter array?  It can not be used in space.

Why would a air superiority fighter be equipped for ground-attack roles ?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #366
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 367



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4
Re: Garbage
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: superdense (again)
DGP question
RE: Max Accel
Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply
Re: superdense (again)
Re: Request for shameless plug
Re: The USS North Carolina as an ED-6 (Re: max accel)
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Far Trader Comments

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:33:29 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Valid Ship Design Systems for T4

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
>    I only use QSDS rules when designing ships for my T4 games.    Just lazy I
> guess.
> 
>                         Dave Nelson

What can I say?  I enjoy designing 60,000 dton cruisers.  <g>  
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:40:37 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Garbage

> It's the existence of drop tanks that "proves" that all the jump fuel is
used
> before jump. Since the tanks are dropped before the ship enters jump
space,
> any unused fuel would be dropped with them. What dooms drop tanks in the
> opinion of some people (not including me) is that drop tank equipped ships
> are more economic than ships that rely on internal tankage and would thus,
> if they existed, crowd out such ships (My opinion is that drop tank
traffic
> requires a minimum volume to be economic, and is in any case less
flexible.
> That combined with the fact the drop tanks are a recent invention means,
> IMO, that they would be found only on major trade routes. Since very few
> published adventures take place on major trade routes, the lack of
reference
> to such ships is not a major problem to me.

I suppose that you could say that drop tanks prove your case, but I can also
see where they prove mine.  Admittedly, the only 'canon design I've seen for
drop tanks is the Gazelle class, and they only *extend* the range, according
to 'Traders & Gunboats', it has a standard J-4 (with tanks), J-5 when it
drops the tanks, and J-2 on internal tankage only.  So for the extended Jump
(where it is dropping the tanks), I would assume that it draws fuel from the
tanks first - stores that power in the newly-developed accumulators - drops
the tanks and switches to internal tanks.  By the time the accumulators
discharge and the plant supplies the power - the tanks are far enough away
not to interfere with the formation of the J-field.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:53:36 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 03:01 PM 3/29/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>>Not actually true as the 40G superdense, space meteorite resistance armour
>>>on a Rampart will shrug off the damage. [...]
>>
>>Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.  And exactly
>>what is a G of armor?  [...]
>
>
>40G is a MegaTraveller term for a hull with an armor value of 40 made of
>material code G (bonded superdense, IIRC). It is the equivalent to 33 cm of
>hard steel.
>

About like the turret armor on the USS North Carolina.  Thick!  What's the
density like?  Mass per cubic cm?

>>If so even
>>assuming colpsed tank armor steal double DR rampart go BOOM when the
>>sidewinder hits!  Shaped charge!
>
>
>Sidewinders do not have shaped charge warheads. AIM-9 Sidewinder, for
>example, has a proximity-fused conventional blast fragmentation warhead
>weighing 20.8 pounds (9.36 kg). In fact, AFAIK no AAM has a shaped-charge
>warhead, since their targets (other aircraft) are not armored.
>

You are right of course.  Mixing thought again.  AT has shaped charge not AA.

Charles L.  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:53:49 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 04:26 PM 3/29/99 EST, you wrote:
>> >When you design an *airframed* space fighter and put in atmospheric flight
>> >avionics (especially terrain following), you're taking all of that into
>> >account.
>>
>> True, but that is NOT a space fighter.  It's an aerospace fighter.  Not the
>> same thing.  But even then and aerospace fighter has to waste space that on
>> a atmospheric fighter can be use for other things.  Take two identically
>> designed aerospace fighters.  Remove from one all the space only systems and
>> replace them with systems useful in the atmosphere.  Now which of the two
>> will be more survivable in the atmosphere?  At the least add extra armor or
>> decoys.
>
>You can put an airframe on a space fighter and still have a 'space fighter,'
>just like you can airframe a free trader or scout ship.  The Rampart *is* an
>airframed space fighter.  Airframe allows higher atmospheric speeds and
>maneuvering.  The cost in the design is easily justified if you want a space
>fighter that can double as an interface/air support platform.  This appears to
>be what the Rampart is, as it's referenced on Imperial TOEs (in Striker II) in
>a ground support role. 
>
>> >AEMS is everything that radar is and alot more.  Everything from longwave
>> >radio to gamma rays, and everything in between.  Far more advanced than
>> >anything in any plane today (though an awacs type job might have the
>advantage
>> >of dedicated equipment, though even that could probably be debated by the
>pure
>> >capabilities of integrated usage of EMS, densitometers, NAS, and LADAR sets
>> >that are common on good military ships of greater than 1k dt).  Putting
>that
>> >in a dedicated EW space fighter is more than possible.
>>

Many of these capabilities are useless in the atmosphere.  Long wave radar
can not be used without a deploy antenea of the right length (100+ meters!)
Forget gamma rays, densometer, and Ladar.  Air is not a homogenious media.
Also there is the problem with training.  How much training time has the
space ace had flying in the atmosphere and using all those sensors?  I'd say
he spent most of his time practicing space combat and what was left in
various atmospheres while the defender will know his world very well indeed.

>> Any why would you put systems in a craft you could not use?  Air and space
>> are different enviroment.  A pure space ship would not mount sensor only
>> really usefull in the atmosphere.  Why would a space fighter waste space and
>> money on a tropostatic scatter array?  It can not be used in space.
>
>If they're being put in, they're going to be used.  They'll be used in an
>interface/ground support craft.  All of the above can be used in space, as
>well.  Should be usable anywhere.  Why would u want them?  The EW game should

Not true.  Space and atmospheric sensors that provide usefull data are very
different.  The design of radar systems are a science in and of itself.
Also look at the surface area of effective space sensors.  How are you going
to deploy them in an atmosphere without them being torn off?  You can't have
a 20 foot dish on a plane expected to travel 100s of MPH and perform high g
manuvers.  A little thing call wind load.

>be vitally important for far future combat.  The NAS is the least required and
>has limited application.
>
>> >Except when you use the laser to pick off the heat seakers.
>>
>> Good luck picking pop up smart missles up on you space optimised sensors at
>> night in a heavy fog.
>
>I'll see them from many km off w/ my AEMS and easily pick them off w/ my
>laser.  And in case, you missed the above, EMS covers everything "dirtside" I

No, you will not because they will be terain following air breathers with a
radar aspect of a peanut and no efective heat signature running on passive
and homing on your active radar signal!  Can you say stealth!  When they
achieve LOS they detonate a bomb pumped or Duturium florine burning laser
and laser you without giving away the position of the launch vehicle some
where beyond the horizon.  Or they detonate a charge and fire a solid rod
Californium penatraiter with a time to target in the fractions of one second.


The atmosphere is NOT space.  You do not have a 4K background to compare to.
RAM, Thermal Cloaking, pop up attacks, over the horizon radar, target
seeking missles, and you space fighter with it's very hot radiaters to act
as a heat seeker magnet.  The problem you get is that in the atmosphere you
can not depend on visual/ir detection like you can in space.  IR is not
curtain in the atmosphere.  And sensor size is limited by drag.

>need, though you could make a case that the avionics are required to make
>sense of it in an atmosphere.
>
>> >Where is this portrayal?   You need a copy of RCVG, methinks.
>> 
>> What is RCVG?  Is it for CT or GT?
>
>Regency Combat Vehicle Guide for TNE.  I've never seen the poor integration of
>Traveller high tech weapon systems, that you claim.  RCVG is at least one
>example (Striker II another) where every kind of vehicle is there (support,
>meson artillery, tanks, apcs, etc all grav).  From what I've heard, Striker
>would be another.
>

I do not have any of these GT, and Gurps vehicles are my perfered systems.
With them you can build nearly any currently made Military gear.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:55:28 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: superdense (again)

SD Mooney writes:
>
> the bonds are manipulated to strengthen or align the
> material - hence bonded superdense.


Or, does bonded mean that the superdense is glazed and
chemically bonded to an inert substance?  (Think
galvanized steel.)  This would theoretically amount to
a ceramic skin on the armor and an improvement versus
thermal and chemical (acid) attack.  I think BSD is just
a minor improvement over superdense armor.  (No books
handy.)

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:06:10 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: DGP question

Did they ever publish the Psionic Races: The Zhodani and the Droyne?

mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:06:06 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Max Accel

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Dear Folks -

Steven commented:

>>This was from a very early Journal (#11? 14?)... can't remember the
>>article
>>name, sorry. It involved a number (how many??) of atmospheric fighters
>>escorting a country's leader who was riding one of six G-Carriers. The
>>interceptors were two Rampart fighters.

> I was sure that the Ramparts were the escorts...

Well, Steven is in fact correct. I was only on target with the issue
number. :-(

The article is "Striker Variant: "Foxhound"" from JTAS 14, pp 44-47,
written by J. D. Webster.

The plot is this: on a balkanised world, a large off-planet company is
attempting to arrange a trade deal. The dictator of one country is planning
to travel to the trade conference in a convoy of G-Carriers, escorted by
three starfighters provided by the off-world company. Another country wants
to block the trade deal, as it would give the dictator enough power to
conquer the entire planet. They have decided to use their advanced jet
fighters to shoot down the dictator's transport.

The strike group consists of 12 swing-wing twin-engined "Foxhound" jets,
each carrying 2 "Gyrfalcon" hypervelocity fire-and-forget starship missiles
(provided by a rival off-world company), 2 IR homing missiles, and a 2cm
autocannon. Appears to be based on the F-14.

The convoy consists of 8 ordinary G-Carriers each mounting twin LMGs in a
cupola.

The escorts are three Rampart-class star-fighters, each equipped with a
beam laser.

All start in high mode. The G-Carriers must stay together, and are used as
the centrepiece for range considerations. The jets and Ramparts can split
up. There are three ranges: close, long, and extreme (only available to the
Ramparts). Craft in the same range band can challenge each other to
dogfights.

Jets can fire the special missile at the G-Carriers if they are at long
range and unengaged. They can fire the missile at Ramparts not in the same
range band if they are not dogfighting. They can fire the missile at
Ramparts in the same range band provided neither is dogfighting. They can
only fire their IR missile at targets in high mode, and can only use their
autocannon if they win initiative against a challenging star-fighter OR if
strafing the G-Carriers.

G-Carriers can fire offensively if they win the advantage (unlikely),
otherwise it is only defensive fire.

A Rampart can fire at targets in the same range band that do not have an
advantage over them, or at targets in other range bands that are not
dogfighting, or at incoming missiles (when at extreme range only). They
cannot fire when moving from long to extreme range, as they are climbing
straight up.

As for damage, an IR missile (Pen 11) or cannon (Pen 15) will only do minor
(paint-scraping) damage to a star-fighter (AF 60). The special missile has
a Pen of 65 vs the Rampart's armour. The beam laser has a Pen of 75, with
_full_ effect against jets (rather than half as per Striker). This means
that each hit does 75 damage points. My assumption is that this rule is
used to show how much more deadly starship-grade weapons are than
atmospheric weapons (the 
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=BD-damage variety).

Full stats for the jet are given, plus a few for the Rampart. The jet h=
as
agility 10 empty, 9 loaded, flies at 1628 kph max, and has 200 damage
points. The Rampart has agility 0, and flies at 3840kph max. The G-Carr=
ier
is standard Striker Book 3 (TL 9, Armour: front 54; sides, belly, deck =
34;
rear 46). Combat resolution should proceed as per Striker Book 2.

As you can tell, this was pre-COACC, and the rules are written to provi=
de a
balanced scenario.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520=
)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.a=
u
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity=
"
=

- --0__=6ive8HSCv2Ne2LPVG9cTXKwsCEwr0abQxTmxXtfTzq0Aa87o1h2WQmEX--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:06:35 EST
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply

Hi-
   Here's my shameless plug, per request.  The Medieval Starship will open in
O'Fallon, Illinois (about 20m east of St. Louis) sometime mid-May.  Web page
soon after that.  Offering standard fare; games, comics, and memorabilia.
Hope to be distinctive in the OOP area, depth of stock, and service, all in a
2400 sq ft. area.  And yes- Traveller will get special display!  After all,
the best way to stimulate new products is to promote the existing ones for my
favorite game.
   Still a lot of flexibility in my plans. I've asked this question before,
but let me again solicit some experienced advice: What would you like to see
in your FLGS?  What features, amenities, whatever is offered that would/does
set it apart and earn your patronage?
   End Shameless Plug
   J.LaRosee 
In a message dated 3/29/99 2:27:32 PM Central Standard Time,
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:
<< That's great!  Congratulations!  Now if you'll just tell us where it is,
 some of us may become patrons. >>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:15:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: superdense (again)

Todd A. Zircher writes:
> SD Mooney writes:
> >
> > the bonds are manipulated to strengthen or align the
> > material - hence bonded superdense.
> 
> Or, does bonded mean that the superdense is glazed and
> chemically bonded to an inert substance?  (Think
> galvanized steel.)  This would theoretically amount to
> a ceramic skin on the armor and an improvement versus
> thermal and chemical (acid) attack.  I think BSD is just
> a minor improvement over superdense armor. 

BSD is twice the strength of SD, and the explanation above is canonical.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:18:17 EST
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Request for shameless plug

In a message dated 3/29/99 2:45:23 PM Central Standard Time,
swordworlder@clinic.net writes:
<< I'm not sure how closely Jay watches the list, so I'll venture a bit. >>
   Thanks for covering for me! :-)  Sword Worlder knew all the details since
he's been providing some valued advice and suggestions to me for some time. He
also has placed my first special order which I'll fill if I have to
manufacture the item myself! 
J.LaRosee

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:37:37 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The USS North Carolina as an ED-6 (Re: max accel)

At 03:43 PM 3/29/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>The USS North Carolia (BB55) "The ShowBoat".  (Have spec book in hand)
>>
>>728 feet long.
>>108 feet Beam.
>>35 feet draft.
>>
>>Crew 2,2339 (144 officers/2,195enlisted)
>>
>>Displacement over 40,000 tons!  (Ship displacement has a different meaning
>>than Traveller displacement.)
>
>[...]
>
>>Now some Guestimates.  The above numbers for size deals with the waterline.
>>More than half the ship is above the water so the aproximate volume is
>>around 800000+ cubic meters. (I've been aboard her it's probably a lot more.)
>
>
>Hmm. Your guestimate is off by at least factor of ten, unless I miss my
>guess. If she displaces 40,000 tons of water, then she pretty much masses
>40,000 tons. I'm pretty sure that an armored battleship is going to have a
>higher density than 1 ton per 20 cubic meters.
>
>Lets look at it another way.
>
>Using your numbers, let's pretend the North Carolina is a box 728 feet
>(approximately 220 meters) long, 108 feet wide (33 meters or so), and 90
>feet tall (2 x draft and then some, about  27 meters). This would give her
>a volume of  (220 x 33 x 27) 196,020 cubic meters, or about 14,000
>displacement tons in HG terms. About the size of a small Imperial escort
>destroyer.
>

You are off in several areas but right also.  She is less wide at the
waterline as she is at main deck level and she is more like 120 meters tall
overall but you make a good point.  She is very heavy for her size.   I
messed up displacement in the exact opposite way I warned about in my own
post.  Sigh, anybody got a towel for this egg on my face?  I do not want to
think to much of something as massive as BB55 flying.  She is awesome
sitting in the water.

>And she is not a box, so her volume is less than this.
>

True.  

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:37:48 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 10:54 PM 3/29/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>>>Note that the factor T is 7,000std (100,000m3). Adding a 1200 EP power
>>
>>7000 displacement tons?  That is almost 2 turrets worth.  The BB would have
>>to go with say 3 type Ms then.  Or 1 type T replacing it's forward turrets
>>and a type K for the rear turret.
>
>a Traveller displacement ton is the volume occupied by 1 ton of liquid
>hydrogen. It is a *volume* not a mass. It is not comparable to the IOWA's
>displacement, which IIRC refers to the tons of water displaced, which is a
>mass. The densities are different.
>

True, my goof has already been pointed out.  The NC could handle the mass
but not the volume of a Type T.  I'm not sure the Nimitz could and still
have room for everything else.  Think of the stress involved in liftoff of
something this size!

>
>
>>728 feet long.
>>108 feet Beam.
>>35 feet draft.
>>
>>Crew 2,2339 (144 officers/2,195enlisted)
>>
>>Displacement over 40,000 tons!  (Ship displacement has a different meaning
>>than Traveller displacement.)
>
>>Now some Guestimates.  The above numbers for size deals with the waterline.
>>More than half the ship is above the water so the aproximate volume is
>>around 800000+ cubic meters. (I've been aboard her it's probably a lot more.)
>
>728 feet (converting approximately to metres by dividing by 3) = 242m
>108 feet = 36m
>35 feet = 12m
>
>Say this equates to a rectangle 242 x 36 x 12 = 104544 m3
>
>14m3 = 1dt
>
>so your ship displaces 7467 dt in Traveller terms. You can only just fit a
>type T in the shell of the ship.
>
>Say we double the beam and assume that you ship has as much volume above
>the water line as below =
>

More than twice as much above as below.  She's tall with a lot of freeboard.

>we still only have 210,000 m3. Your 800000m3 assume 7/8 of the ships volume
>is above the water.  800,000m3 is 58kdt equivalent.
>
>Frankly, I disbelieve that much of the volume is above the waterline this.
>

There would be IF she was a rectangle.  This is more the volume of a
rectangle that could hold her.  She probably has about 1/3 to 1/4 this space
inclosed.  I blew the math in the wrong direection.  Scaled up instead of
down.  OOPPPsss!

>To power a TL15 Type T requires 1200 dt of power plant at TL15. We still
>have no hull, no bridge, accomodation, fuel, drives or armour. I leave it
>for you to calculate the minimum size required just to service a single
>Type T (50 weapons crew = 100 dt of staterooms, plus the PP crew (12 more
>crew).
>

The 16" guns have a crew of 24 per turret.  IIRC

>And from another post:
>
>>One real fighter can launch many real missles.  One CT traveller rampart can
>>fire it's laser only once.  I play CT and GT.  I have never seen rule to
>>copy a f15/f16/f18 in CT.
>
>It's called Striker! and has a complete design sequence.
>Dom
>

Does it cover hard point/pylon mounted weaons?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:37:59 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 10:36 PM 3/29/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>>Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.  And exactly
>>what is a G of armor?  Is that grams per square centimeter?  If so even
>>assuming colpsed tank armor steal double DR rampart go BOOM when the
>>sidewinder hits!  Shaped charge!
>
>40 - minimum armour on a space going vessel
>G is type of armour. eg superdense.
>
>Someone here can probably translate the 40 into something more meaningful.
>
>And collapsed superdense on the Rampart is designed to take micrometeorites
>as a minimum, plus provide harden rad shielding from flares. I suspect that
>most usual starship armour will shrug off the equivalent to a sidewinder
>shaped charge.
>

My goof here too.  Sidewinder are not shaped charges.  You need an antitank
warhead for a space ship.

>
>>IF it's sensors can target the fighter.  That's a big if.  Space and the
>>atmosphere are very different.  Why do you think they have to design
>>different systems to look at earth and the stars from orbit?
>
>Because the earth is illuminated by a large fusion reactor so a great
>source of reflected light, whereas the stars are point sources of emmitted
>radiation? :-)
>

That's part of it.  The earth is a lot warmer than space also.

>>>Generally I accept this argument, but remember that the Traveller armours
>>>are much much better than those on current air and land vehicles.
>>Huricanes and tornados total MBTs and neither of those have hypersonic wind
>>speeds.
>
>I'm assuming you're talking about weather effects here, not the Hawker and
>Panavia aircraft.
>

Good one.  Yes I ment wind effects and I ment that if 500 MPH tornado winds
can move a tank 780+MPH winds will peel a planed skin of if a breach ocures.

>Maybe so, but I have never come across an example of a 65 Tonne MBT being
>thrown around by a hurricane. However, I don't live in a region where I get
>that kind of news. I don't actually see what you are postualting and how it
>links back to the original text. Hurricanes will do damage by throwing
>around a vehicle as a unit, not by bursting a hole into the body and
>exploding it.
>
>> As for armor getting better, yes it will but only in the aspect of
>>bulkyness not mass.  Armor works because of mass density.  Dense armor means
>>less volume more weight.
>
>Nope. Less volume same weight. Conversely, my cm of superdense is
>significantly stronger than your cm steel because (1) there is more
>material and (2) the bonds are manipulated to strengthen or align the
>material - hence bonded superdense.
>

That's what I ment exactly.  Sorry I was not clear.

>>You'll reach limits of design where you can not
>>move your armor.  1 ton of colapsed steel still weighs 1 ton even at half
>>it's volume and 1 ton of steel with take only so many MJs to melt
>>regardless.
>
>But playing with the bonds and material structure enhances the material
>beyond a straight dimensional compression.
>

Yes, a synergetic effect.

>>Colapsing with probably act like suface hardening and give
>>better protection against impact but I dought it will change the melting
>>point of and element greatly.
>
>Whereas I believe playing with the atomic structure of the material is
>likely to significantly alter the melting point, elasticity, and hardness,
>not to mention the heat transfer ability.
>

I dought melting point will change as it does not seem to be directly
related to atomic mass though you may be right as far as the other
properties go.

>>This could make titainium a very sought after
>>material.  Light strong and heat resistant to start with and when colapsed...
>
>Do you sell titanium? ;-)
>

No but maybe I'd look into futures if SD became a posibility.

>Maybe, but from the references I've seen for Traveller I'd take the
>superdense. It's significantly better, even at the same thickness.
>
>Dom
>

You missunderstand.  Superdense what?  What was made superdense?  I was
saying titainium would be a go thing to make into a superdense material.
You have to start with some normal matter.  Some matters will be better than
others in making superdense.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:38:10 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)

At 03:07 PM 3/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Moody, Danny M. wrote:
>> 
>>
>> Actually, yes.  I'm working (on and off - mostly off) on such a conversion.
>> 
>> Here's what I've done so far:
>> 
>> I've estimated the scale of that model at (IIRC) about 15mm scale.
>> 
>> Take everything off the hell (no engines, superstructure, etc) so you just
>> have the wedge left.
>SNIP
>> More (maybe) to come...
>> 
>
>GIF! GIF! GIF!
>
>-- 
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

Yes, please, with close ups.

Any ideas as to colors and marking???

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:46:11 -0700
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Comments

> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:46:09 -0800
> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> Subject: Re: Far Trader Comments
> 
> >The artwork was great, especially Jesse's work.  I have a
> >question for Jesse.  Was the small picture of the woman walking away
from a
> >ship with a small reptilian creature yours?  If so I want a digital copy
> >for my desktop!
> 
> Yep, she was mine.  Both of 'em - kinda' funny as one of the two shots
> wasn't going to be used originally, which is why I'd made the second one.
> On page 23 is the second version that I'd done at Loren's request.  On
page
> 91 is the original version.  

As an aside, my wife Sherry (who wrote most of the sample characters: she's
much better at people than I) says that picture is *exactly* what she had
in mind for Amanda Blackwell -- who appears in the sidebar, also on p. 91.
Loren says this is 100% serendipity, but even unintended it's a nice touch.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #367
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 368



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: DGP Question
Re: superdense (again)
Re: Far Trader Comments
mental control or hand me that thar remote
girlfriends/wifes and gaming
Re: max accel
Traveller LARP?
Re: M:IW - The Ernest Lord Rutherford
Re: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Valid Ship design systems
Re: (OT) Crusade
Re: max accel
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: max accel
Re: laser fire through clouds
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply
Re: superdense (again)
Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Imperial Ministries

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:47:08 -0400
From: Denis Allain <wizards@nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

Hello, I've been reading the posts on and off for a few years.
I play MT, and am wondering how to calculate the distance from a planet
to 10 diameter, as well as 100 diameter (safe jump point). I thought
about multiplying the diameter of the planet by 10, and then by 100...
but when I look at the transit times (travel time)  charts in the
Imperial Encyclopedia, it dosen't seem to jive. Anybody has any idea???
Thanks in advance

Denis Allain

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:02:50 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: DGP Question

Michael McKeown wrote:

>Did they ever publish the Psionic Races: The Zhodani and the Droyne?

Nope. Though I've seen outlines of the unpublished book on the web
somewhere along with those for Black Duke, an adventure book dealing with
Dulinor.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:03:55 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: superdense (again)

Anthony Jackson writes:
> 
> BSD is twice the strength of SD, and the explanation above
> is canonical.

Ouch, looks like I'm way off base on that.  Bonded just doesn't
seem like the right word for a molecularly re-aligned material.
Perhaps RSD (really superdense).  <g>
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:05:25 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Comments

No kiddin'!!!  How cool!  I haven't read ANY of it yet (had to look at my
pictures :), but maybe I'll do that tonight while waiting for Starports test
renders.

Jesse


>As an aside, my wife Sherry (who wrote most of the sample characters: she's
>much better at people than I) says that picture is *exactly* what she had
>in mind for Amanda Blackwell -- who appears in the sidebar, also on p. 91.
>Loren says this is 100% serendipity, but even unintended it's a nice touch.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:57:57 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: mental control or hand me that thar remote

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:43:14 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Brain Wave/Computer Interface

At 12:27 PM 3/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Hold on a second.  When did brain-machine interfaces appear in Traveller? 
>They're not part of any milieu I'm familiar with.
>
>This isn't a criticism, just a question.  I always got the impression that
>Traveller had always avoided this sort of thing as too cyberpunkish.
>
>(BTW: I enjoy these little factoids, since I seldom have time to hunt them
>down on my own.)
>----------
>They originally appeared in JTAS 22 in the article 'Computer >Implants' by
>J. Andrew Keith in 1985.

	As I remember, his article hit JTAS 22 a few months after it was announced
in a Scientific Mag that a break-through using computers and Alpha wave
scanners had occurred IRL. A test subject fitted with a helmet stared at a
symbol and the alpha scanner helmet fed this info to a computer. Then
another symbol, etc etc. Then each symbol was linked to a computer program.
the subject was told that symbol A would mean turn on the lights. the
subject was told to "turn on the lights" the subject then concentrated on
symbol A and the Helmet detected the alpha pattern, computer program
connected to that symbol/pattern ran. 	The problem being each persons alpha
pattern was different for each symbol. Nothing has been heard of since
about that project (except a movie, Firefox with Clint Eastwood) So that
being said, My impression was that the article was accepted because it had
a basis in real life. 
	Another interesting IRL occurance is if you read the description of the
Battletech (FASA) Musculature motive system for the Battlemechs and then
read the description of the robotic muscles break-though being tested now...

	Does this mean that some scientists are former gamers? or that gamers
think ahead? Or some gamers are scientific calibre?... I can't wait for my
Type S Scout to hit the market. Can we preorder our force swords?

	And finally as a side note. With whats happening in Europe and the Y2K
event... is anyone ready to play Twilight 2000 For real? Look at the names
of where the fighting is taking place and then look at the names on your
Twi 2000 maps. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:16:02 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: girlfriends/wifes and gaming

	My Ex wife abhored gaming liking it to satanic etc etc, infact my kids
have called me on occasion to ask gaming question. (Behind her back) My
current Girlfriend (35 years old and a professional nurse) never having
gamed before absolutly loved the game the first time she played, I was
surprised one day when she coyly asked. "Honey... whats mind blast?" She
looks forward to the games now, and every once in a while she tries to get
me to reveal a current plot. It never works but it is fun that she tries...
;} 
	As an aside the other players in the game have commented that I show her
favoritism. Then I point out to them...
"Who gave her the amulet of (fill the blank.)?"
Player two "Uhm I did."
"Who gave her the torq of (fill the blank)?"
Player three "Uhm I did."
"Who gave her the x-ray rifle?"
Player four "I did."
"Who suggested she put points into this psi power?"
Player five "I did."
"Who made her into the goddess of characters?"
Group. "Uh guess we did."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:19:10 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

>>>>
>It's called Striker! and has a complete design sequence.
>Dom
>

Does it cover hard point/pylon mounted weaons?

Charles L.
>>>>
Yes, Striker covers aircraft hardpoint and pylon mounted weapons.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:11:17 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Traveller LARP?

Dear Folks -

Jason asked:
>Now, that's an interesting comment.  How -would- one run a Traveller
>LARP?  Has it been done?

I played in a Traveller free-form at CANCON back in the late 80's or early
1990's (after MT and Digest #9 came out but before TNE, anyway!). We were
(mostly) playing nobles (and Aslan guard commanders, etc) aboard the
Imperial Palace after Lucan had succeeded in defeating Dulinor. His
daughter, Isis, was going to swear allegiance to Lucan during an audience
with him, but ended up shooting him and declaring herself Empress. The
session that developed from there was that the Moot had to decide whether
to ratify her claim.

There were a number of sub-plots, including raising the Marie Celeste that
was somehow in the "pond", preventing some lunatic from overloading the
fusion plant, chasing down some sort of alien critters that had been
released into the airducts, and so on. From memory, the Palace was boosted
into orbit with its black globe on until we came to a consensus - and I
can't even remember who ended up elected!

BTW, the black globe was turned on late in the game, and is known in gaming
terms as a "brick wall" - a badly-executed glass wall. If you are going to
run a "box" scenario (one in which the PC's cannot escape before the end of
the session), you need to have a plausible "box" that appears transparent.
That is, the PC's can continue to *hope* to escape the "box", even if they
really can't. The worst form is a "stone wall" (ie. the GM "stonewalls"
your efforts ;-).

Here is a reasonable checklist for creating a convention game (given that
you should spend more time on it than "normal" scenarios):

1.   Conceptual Playtest

     "I've got this great idea for a module..."

2.   Devil's Advocate Meeting

     A conceptual playtest without an actual playtest.

3.   Alpha Test

     First rough test of the module.

4.   Beta Test

     Conceptually complete module, tested prior to the final write-up.

5.   Dry Run (GM run)

     Final playtest designed to familiarise GM's with the module under
     tournament conditions.

Note that, just like the Programming Life Cycle, it is a rare module that
goes through all stages... ;-) However, the more effort you put in, the
better the module. It helps to close up all the gaping truck-sized holes in
the plot that a 10-year-old can see thru... for example, having a
teleporter in "Missions of State" or FTL communications in JTAS 26!.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:22:35 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: M:IW - The Ernest Lord Rutherford

At 10:06 PM 3/29/99 +1200, Andrew wrote:
>Ernest Lord Rutherford, Rutherford class Explorer (FF&S v2)
>Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
<Big Snip of good stuff...>

Well, I certainly have to applaud the fine class name!!!  ;-)


Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:33:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)

 
> > One of her chracters is a CT scout.  Do any of you have any ideas about
> > converting a Star Wars 'star destroyer' into a large scale traveller
> > scout

A friend of mine already did this. If I can borrow it I'll shoot a
picture and post it.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:40:06 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Valid Ship design systems

>>Just out of curiosity, do those of you who play T4 consider the QSDS and
>>SSDS to be valid ship design systems (since they produce ships in
>>variance with FF&S2)  I did some SSDS designs using the Akins
>>spreadsheet, and want to know whether they would be worth posting to my
>>site and/or the TML.

I rather like both the QSDS and SSDS, especially the cost reduction.  It
reflect the lower cost (in-game) of standardized components, and thus helps
to flesh out the world in the mechanics.  

"Look pal, we can custom build this for you if you really want, but for
just a few creds more you can have one a class bigger.  We just got a
shipment of 10,000 for the Navy..."



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:43:15 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: (OT) Crusade

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net> wrote:
> 
> >> If it ain't already been said: The show has already been cancelled by TNT.
> >
> >How can a show be cancelled before it's even on!?!?  This would only make
> >sense to a Network Executive.
> 
> Not cancelled as such - placed in a holding pattern awaiting ratings IIRC.
> Bear in mind Crusade has not had a pilot and they probably had a limit to
> the investment they wanted to make before they continued.
> 
> Dom
> 

Yes, as I understand it. THey have stopped filming and STORED the sets,
rather than recycled/scrapped them. So there is always the hope that
high rating will put the show back on the schedule.Unfortunately the
crew and cast have been released and are seeking other jobs, so picking
the show up again at this point might not yeld the same product.

The problem seems to be an expensive product and luke warm market. Then
again this may be over "creative differences" and by letting the crew go
and re-hireing later, the network executives can tailor the creative
element to their taste. I've seen this sort of thing happen in other
industries.
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:50:11 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: max accel

Dear Folks -

Charles said:
>An optimised space fighter would not have an airframe.  You are discussing
a
>aerospace fighter.

Maybe this is a question of semantics?? The Trav fighters I have seen in HG
or MT rules are all designated as airframe construction. I always believed
that small craft ARE optimised for an atmosphere, since that is where I
perceive them being used most of the time. They are interface craft. Look
at the "slow boat" in MT, for example. It may only have 2G, but since it is
airframed it travels at over 2000 kph in atmosphere, much faster than the
5G ship's boat which is only "streamlined".

I always view the sensors the same way; the craft are designed for
interface combat, so the sensors work just as well in atmosphere as in
space.

What you may like to check out is COACC, which has a (50-ton?) TL 15
fighter in the back. Now *that* may be a match for the original (8-ton?)
AHL Rampart - but check out the 50-ton Rampart IV's and V's from an early
Challenge (#27? #28?)!!

>>40G superdense, space meteorite resistance armour
>Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.
>And exactly what is a G of armor?

"G" is the MT code for superdense armour (so the quoter was just being
redundant ;-). And I think you'll find that the Rampart *does* have good
armour, even in CT. High Guard armour factor-0 is AF 40 in CT personal
combat. This is the scale that rates cloth as AV 5, battledress as AF 18,
and FGMP-15's as Pen 34. HG armour factor 1 is personal combat AF 60, which
is what the Ramparts in "Foxhound" have.

The IR air-to-air aircraft missiles in that scenario only have Pen 11,
which is arguably very low. Anyone have a better aircraft missile drawn up?
What does COACC say (my books are at home)?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:21:48 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

At 07:45 PM 3/29/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Lasers can be countered by arisols and ablative armor.  I think in the end
>energy weapons will have to go tward very high output and short duration.
>In effect HE energy 'shells'.  Plazma/fussion guns most likely.  Lasers are
>going to have a lot of trouble with real armor. (Heat dispersion.)  You'll
>need the penetration/punch of an hypersonic ice pick with the stoping power
>of HE.  Lasers are just not the best for this.  We may still be using direct
>fire shells for a long time to take out heavy armor.

Sounds kinda like the Hellbore weapon from the Bolo books.  A sliver of
frozen deuterium, fusing, fired at .6-.7C...  The output is measured in
Megatons per second.... :)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:21:43 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: max accel

Dear Folks -

Charles wrote:
>I'm not sure the Nimitz could and still
>have room for everything else.  Think of the stress involved in liftoff of
>something this size!

My rule of thumb goes something like this:

Craft up to 6000 tons can land on landing gear, if airframes or
streamlined.
Craft up to 50,000 tons can land in water or highly-specialised cradles -
water is cheaper!
Craft up to 100,000 tons can enter low atmosphere but cannot land.
Dependign on the atmosphere, the GM might rule that this is very dangerous.
Anything bigger can only enter high atmosphere - for example they can
refuel at a GG.

[Natch, craft smaller than 50,000 tons can land on cradles,  eg. the Tukera
merchant from the early Digests (#4?) or in the water.]

This is why you need all those small interface craft - for transport!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:54:15 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: laser fire through clouds

At 04:26 PM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Some GURPS Gearhead wanna tell what GV2 lasers are capable of?  Anything for
>clouds in there?

Dunno about clouds, but in a standard earth atmosphere an x-ray laser has
1/100th it's vacuum range.  Since a 450MJ GTL12 Laser (on p:GT173) has a
maximum space range of 39 2000-mile hexes (78000miles), in an atmosphere,
that means it has an effective range of 780 miles in an atmosphere.  

Does anyone know how that compares with the distance to Horizon at say,
20000 feet?



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:52:56 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

> From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>

> inhabited by the spirit of Barron von Ricktoffein (spelling?).  You know,
> "the bloody Red Barron of Germany."  Let's hope nobody discovers where those
> missing Lewis guns went...

Baron Manfred von Richtofen - Red Baron

There is a discussion group at:
http://www.researchpaper.com/forums/History/messages/175.html

The Richtofen class triplane for Traveller is available at:
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard/vera/vera0006.html

A GURPS higher tech level fighter is at:
http://www.infini.fr/~jpmichel/page/gurps/Rfight.html

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:00:46 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

Denis Allain wrote:
> 
> Hello, I've been reading the posts on and off for a few years.
> I play MT, and am wondering how to calculate the distance from a planet
> to 10 diameter, as well as 100 diameter (safe jump point). I thought
> about multiplying the diameter of the planet by 10, and then by 100...
> but when I look at the transit times (travel time)  charts in the
> Imperial Encyclopedia, it dosen't seem to jive. Anybody has any idea???
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Denis Allain

Well, I don't have the charts to which you refer, so I'll make a couple
of suggestions.  Try these out, and see if you get answers closer to
what the charts indicate.

1.  Don't assume that a ship accelerates for the entire trip out. 
Generally speaking, a ship will accelerate for the first half of the
journey, and decelerate for the second half, thus entering jumpspace
with little or no relative velocity.  The reson for this is simple.  If
you enter jumpspace moving like a bat out of Hell, you reenter normal
space moving like a bat _into_ Hell.  Since you can't see ahead of time
what might be in your way, this is generally considered to be a _bad_
idea.  (Makes me feel like Tom Bodett in the Animaniacs cartoons' "Good
Idea/Bad Idea" feature. ["Good Idea:  Entering jumpspace at a high
velocity {shows Mr. Skullhead piloting the Millenium Falcon into
lightspeed, just ahead of the TIE fighters}.  Bad Idea:  Re-entering
normal space at a high velocity {shows Mr. Skullhead slamming smack into
the side of the Death Star}.  The End."])

2.  The tables may have already compensated for the gravitational effect
of the celestial body in question.  Your calculations should do the
same.

3.  Without trying to reignite certain "discussions" on the TML, I would
point out that the 10/100 diameter limit could refer to the _stellar_
diameter, rather than the planetary diameter.  Try running those
numbers, and see what you get.


- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:46:24 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

	I did notice that in an early traveller work, either Traveller Book or
Citizens of the Imperium, there was a list of "thugs"  or something like that,
to be used as quick opponents in gunfights or brawls etc., and these guys were
just randomly rolled guys, but one was indeed a social status C.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:57:02 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply

In a message dated 3/29/99 6:24:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, JLAROSEE@aol.com
writes:

<<   Still a lot of flexibility in my plans. I've asked this question before,
 but let me again solicit some experienced advice: What would you like to see
 in your FLGS?  What features, amenities, whatever is offered that would/does
 set it apart and earn your patronage? >>


	One of the best games stores I've ever seen is The Game Parlour in Chantilly
Virginia, it is really quite excellent, almost beyond words.  There is even a
review of the store on www.RPG.NET, search the review database.

	The best things about the store are as follows:
	1) Everything is arranged by theme rather than by company.  All the fantasy
stuff--rules, magazines, minatures is together, all the Sci-fi stuff is
together as well.  This makes finding what you want much easier .  it also
makes buying supporting material such as miniatures, mats, play-aids much more
tempting.
	2)  Game playing space provided:  there are over a dozen game tables and even
a separate role-play room all of which are availible for reservation.   I
can't tell you how much more money I've spent since I go in there every two
weeks to run my game.  If you give people a place to play, they will want to
support you by buying their products from you rather than elsewhere, I know I
try to by everything at the Game Parlour, if possible.  They also make some
money selling packaged food like candy and sodas.
	3)  Gamers run the register:   it makes customers feel doubly welcome.


	best of luck to you, and if you ever get to DC go to the Game Parlour, it's
worth a look.  (It's not too far from Dulles Airport)

			Dave Nelson  
 And no, I don't have a financial interest. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:07:42 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: superdense (again)

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
> 
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> >
> > BSD is twice the strength of SD, and the explanation above
> > is canonical.
> 
> Ouch, looks like I'm way off base on that.  Bonded just doesn't
> seem like the right word for a molecularly re-aligned material.
> Perhaps RSD (really superdense).  <g>

From FF&Sv2, page 63:

"Bonded Superdense:  Armor with internal electron bonds, further
strengthened by a small induced electrical current."

Sounds as if Bonded Superdense is an accurate name (since the "bonded"
refers to the strengthened electron bonds).

> --
> TAZ

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:59:30 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

In a message dated 3/29/99 6:54:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wizards@nbnet.nb.ca writes:

<<  am wondering how to calculate the distance from a planet
 to 10 diameter, as well as 100 diameter (safe jump point). I thought
 about multiplying the diameter of the planet by 10, and then by 100...
 but when I look at the transit times (travel time)  charts in the
 Imperial Encyclopedia, it dosen't seem to jive. Anybody has any idea???
 Thanks in advance >>


	Don't the travel times figure in 1/2 of the time accerlerating and the second
half declerating?   or was that CT?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:12:58 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Imperial Ministries

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 17:56:11 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy

Christopher Thrash wrote:

> I've become interested in the structure of the Imperial Bureaucracy in
> Traveller, as it has evolved over time from little references here and
> there in published material. Whereas a complete book on the subject -- as
> the title of this posts suggests -- might possibly be the most boring
> sourcebook known to intelligent life everywhere (except Bwaps), a list of
> established offices and ministries and their relationships to one another
> might prove a useful tool for future authors.

I agree totally.  I even tried to create one for Milieu 0, but I've
misplaced it.
I realize that the canonicity of Milieu 0 is suspect to some, but FWIW,
from Milieu 0 (pp.46-47):

The Nobility
The Moot
The Bureacracy:
   The Military
      Army
      Navy
          Marines
   The Office of Standards (covers trade, justice, etc.)
      Office of Calendar Compliance
          The Imperial Office of Justice (later Ministry of Justice)
   The Scout and Exploratory Services (later IISS)
   The Ministry of Information
   The Diplomatic Corps

Although discussed, the Bureau of Interstellar Affairs is not clearly
affiliated
with
any other named office.

- - --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #368
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 369



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote
Re: girlfriends/wifes and gaming
Von Richtofen (was: Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Fusion exhaust...
Re: Stuff
Re: Stuff [lots of snippage]
Re: The USS North Carolina as an ED-6 (Re: max accel)
Re: Von Richtofen (was: Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: Garbage
Re: max accel
10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Traveller and Travelling Casinos
Re: Merchants
Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote
Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: M:IW - The Ernest Lord Rutherford
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:23:01 -0600
From: "Clint Williams" <aremis@amaonline.com>
Subject: Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote

- -----Original Message-----
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 6:17 PM

> And finally as a side note. With whats happening in Europe and the Y2K
>event... is anyone ready to play Twilight 2000 For real? Look at the names
>of where the fighting is taking place and then look at the names on your
>Twi 2000 maps.
>

Or take a look at a atlas of the 20th century, this is where the 1st World
War began.  I have never bought into any kind of milleniallism but the
Balkans make me very nervous.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:01:14 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: girlfriends/wifes and gaming

Girlfriends/wives in gaming?     Huh??

			YOU"RE KILLING INDEPENDENT GEORGE!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:25:06 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Von Richtofen (was: Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
> 
> > inhabited by the spirit of Barron von Ricktoffein (spelling?).  You know,
> > "the bloody Red Barron of Germany."  Let's hope nobody discovers where those
> > missing Lewis guns went...
> 
> Baron Manfred von Richtofen - Red Baron
> 
> There is a discussion group at:
> http://www.researchpaper.com/forums/History/messages/175.html
> 
> The Richtofen class triplane for Traveller is available at:
> http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard/vera/vera0006.html
> 
> A GURPS higher tech level fighter is at:
> http://www.infini.fr/~jpmichel/page/gurps/Rfight.html
> 
> --Glenn

Of course, if you want to watch your PCs _really_ squirm, throw the
equivalent of "Chiggie von Richtofen" (from "Space: Above and Beyond")
into the campaign.  A single experimental enemy fighter, of TL:
Higher-than-the-PCs', slaughtering squadrons of friendly fighters all by
its lonesome....

This also works for larger ships (one enemy cruiser-sized ship wiping
out Batrons).

(Actual design would depend on TL of the milieu in question.)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:29:15 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Fusion exhaust...

Heyo!

I just had bad thoughts...would the gearheads and RW physicists on the list
please instruct me?

What is the byproduct of a fusion reaction?  Helium?  How is it removed from
RW reactors?  How will it be removed when a self-sustaining reaction is
started?  What exactly is plasma?

How would the exhaust of a fusion reactor be removed from a starship
reactor, or from the starship itself, or would the reactor just be vented to
vacuum?

How about when the starship is in J-space?

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:37:37 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stuff

In a message dated 3/29/99 2:34:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
writes:

<< I dont have a problem with this being bleeding-edge TL15, but we are
 talking about a set of technologies that is a thousand years old by the end
 of the Third Imperium.
  >>

I see your point. I'll handwave no vehicular SP MG's until TL 15...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:46:02 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Stuff [lots of snippage]

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> The optimised aerospace fighter is in fact a grav tank. Low speed, heavy
> armour, optimised for NOE. Any other design is dead meat.

I disagree with your conclusion, to this extent:

Vehicle design is similar to restaurant food:  "You can get food that's
good, cheap, and fast.  Pick two."  With vehicles, it's "You can have
vehicles that are fast, well-armed, and well-protected.  Pick two."

It seems likely that there will always be a mission requirement for
vehicles that achieve high speed, at the expense of weapons, protection,
or both.  Two examples would be reconnaissance vehicles (which need to
be faster than the vehicles they support) and "flying artillery" (such
as the Ju-87s used in Hitler's "blitzkrieg", or the close air support
available to Coalition forces in the 1991 Gulf War).
> 
<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:45:21 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: The USS North Carolina as an ED-6 (Re: max accel)

In a message dated 3/29/99 3:41:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
prevattec@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< She is very heavy for her size.   I
 messed up displacement in the exact opposite way I warned about in my own
 post.  Sigh, anybody got a towel for this egg on my face?  I do not want to
 think to much of something as massive as BB55 flying.  She is awesome
 sitting in the water. >>

considering 20 to 25% of her weight is armor; I'm not surprised...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:53:17 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Von Richtofen (was: Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

At 10:25 PM 3/29/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Of course, if you want to watch your PCs _really_ squirm, throw the
>equivalent of "Chiggie von Richtofen" (from "Space: Above and Beyond")
>into the campaign.  A single experimental enemy fighter, of TL:
>Higher-than-the-PCs', slaughtering squadrons of friendly fighters all by
>its lonesome....

Actually, this has gotten me thinking.  What would the TL of the S:AAB
mileu be.  It would make an excellent alternative to the Interstellar Wars
of Canon...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:57:18 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> Heyo!
> 
> I just had bad thoughts...would the gearheads and RW physicists on the list
> please instruct me?
> 
> What is the byproduct of a fusion reaction?  Helium?  

IIRC, helium (in one isotope or another) is the byproduct of
hydrogen-based fusion reactions (which isotope of helium, and how much,
depends on which isotopes of hydrogen are involved, in which fusion
reaction).

From what I recall reading, you can gain energy from fusion reactions
all the way up to Iron (similarly, you can gain energy from fission
reactions of elements heavier than Iron).  A fusion reactor designed for
optimal efficiency of reactive mass could do so, although I would
suspect that diminishing returns would discourage most of the
higher-level fusion reactions.  Helium, OTOH, would likely still provide
a sufficiently energetic fusion reaction to be worth exploiting (at
least at higher TLs).

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:31:33 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

In a message dated 3/29/99 1:42:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< Not quite,  it's one in 6 cubed or one in every 216 people. 
  Still way too high of course.
  
  Frankie
   >>
 No,   a "12" on 2d6 is a 1 in 36 chance.
 
 				1/6 x 1/6 = 1/36. >>

either way; what about handwaving that the roll makes you a LOCAL noble (which
is useless for travelling...)? If you repeat the roll; you are an Imperial
knight. If you repeat the roll a third time, you are a baronet...It cuts the
numbers down to a more reasonable percentage...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 01:10:04 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

> >There aren't any canon designs that have drop tank equipped ships w/o
internal
> >tankage are there?  This is what needs to be outlawed by the design systems
> >IMO.  The rest can be solved by the Gearheads.
> 
> Rather than coming up with a new theory and then coming up
> with a number of reasons why it can't do what one would expect
> I would just not have them in first place.

I'm not invoking any "new theories."  *Nothing* says every last drop of j-fuel
is consumed at the instant of jump, is there?  Drop tanks exist in every
version of Traveller.  They're not just going to go away.  Of course, they
don't have to apply to anyone's TU, but the only reason they give problems is
due to assumptions on the workings of J-drives, assumptions that don't seem
grounded in canon.  

> >Here's my take:  J2 worth (at the higher displacement) is used at the
> >*instant* of jump, the drop tank's fuel is transfered to the internal
tankage
> >and then the tanks ditched giving lower displacement, to be consumed during
> >the jump, which original FF&S' treatment handles well.  How's that?
> 
> If I follow what you are saying, you are talking about "demountable"
> tanks.  You strap them on and jump with a higher displacement.
> When you get to your destination, you pop them off and use your
> remaining fuel to jump at a lower displacement.

Nope.  According to my MT Ref's Manual, Dismountable tanks are "fixed and
semi- permament" and (the exterior ones) require two weeks to be dismounted.
Drop tanks are instant drop.  This is apparently, the only difference between
the two.
Just what do you think drop tanks are?  Are we talking bout the same thing?
How do drop tanks bust up YTU?  The economic thing Hans was talking bout (and
solved nicely if that's the only problem) or the issue of J-drive workings I'm
talking bout (and is solved by correcting the theory behind J-drives)?

I'm taking it there are no designs with drop tanks lacking internal tankage?
That is the only thing that would require "new theories" and should normally
be prohibited from the OTU rules IMO.

The only problems w/ drop tanks (aside from eventually sundering economic
assumptions), is the issue that is only a problem if you're the "instant
consumption" model of J-drive.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 01:10:07 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

<snip integrated use of EMS, Densitometer, LADAR, etc>

> Many of these capabilities are useless in the atmosphere.  Long wave radar
> can not be used without a deploy antenea of the right length (100+ meters!)
> Forget gamma rays, densometer, and Ladar.  Air is not a homogenious media.

Duh.  We're told EMS sensors cover *everything* in between longwave radar and
gamma rays.  That includes longwave radio, shortwave radio, microwave radio,
heat/IR, visible light, UV, X-ray, Gamma.

> Also there is the problem with training.  How much training time has the
> space ace had flying in the atmosphere and using all those sensors?  I'd say
> he spent most of his time practicing space combat and what was left in
> various atmospheres while the defender will know his world very well indeed.

Well unfortunately Traveller history is against you, as the usage of these
sensors (EMS, at least) in atmospheres is well documented (try every TL-10+
design) in both grav and space vehicles that have no problems operating in the
others environment.  We're talking bout a TL-15 Rampart here that has
holographic dymanic linked computers that can assist the user and is very
nearly AI by itself.  It's a no brainer.  The tech is the great equalizer.  

> Not true.  Space and atmospheric sensors that provide usefull data are very
> different.  The design of radar systems are a science in and of itself.
> Also look at the surface area of effective space sensors.  How are you going
> to deploy them in an atmosphere without them being torn off?  You can't have
> a 20 foot dish on a plane expected to travel 100s of MPH and perform high g
> manuvers.  A little thing call wind load.

Listen, Charles.  The space sensors (AEMS and PEMS, at least) are *everything*
that the atmospheric sensors are (at least when coupled with the atmospheric
flight avionics).  The differences you're focusing on are gone (or glossed
over) at TL-10 w/ the development of EMS sensors.  That's the basic and
underlying presumption.

There arent' any 20 foot dishes on the Rampart (in BL anyways).  The Rampart
has a (60,000km short range) fixed apeture synthesis array of dispersed
elements that have a diameter that total 5m for its PEMS.  It's not just one
big Sony DSS on the nose cone.  lol.  *That's* certainly not in the artwork.
;-)

I trust u've finally conceded that by TL-15, aerospace fighters are mostly
replaced by grav tanks?  Avionics & airframe make the space fighter an
aerospace fighter.

> I do not have any of these GT, and Gurps vehicles are my perfered systems.
> With them you can build nearly any currently made Military gear.

Ditto with TNE & FF&S.  And I can do it in metric.  : P


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:46:28 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

> From: Denis Allain <wizards@nbnet.nb.ca>

> Hello, I've been reading the posts on and off for a few years.
> I play MT, and am wondering how to calculate the distance from a planet
> to 10 diameter, as well as 100 diameter (safe jump point). I thought
> about multiplying the diameter of the planet by 10, and then by 100...
> but when I look at the transit times (travel time)  charts in the
> Imperial Encyclopedia, it dosen't seem to jive. Anybody has any idea???

What else would you do but multiply the relevant diameter (in
kilometers) by 10 or 100? I don't have Imperial Encyclopedia here, so I
can't address the travel time charts.

One other factor to consider is solar diameter.  The idea of safe jump
distance is that your astrogation will be made inaccurate by strong
gravitational forces, so you get away from the gravity well of the
planet.  You should for the same reason also get away from the gravity
well of the system's star.  Thus you need to determine whether the world
is within 10 or 100 diameters of its sun when you are deciding safe jump
points.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:50:56 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> with this thread about Traveller casinos; since I live in Vegas; if anyone
> needs data about the industry; please E mail me.

 Here's one, What's the hold on Poker Pai Gow?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999
 RIP 3/19/99

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 99 00:17:00 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Traveller and Travelling Casinos

On 03/29/99 at 08:58 PM,  "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> said:

>They could be if it was a travelling casion, like the old Missisipi
>riverboats, but betwen the stars...

IMTU, there is a system called Beck which is the recreation system
situated on a main with several rich hi-pop worlds within a few
jumps.  It is Las Vegas, Orlando, Cancun, Paris, Baden Baden, Monte
Carlo, Bangkok, and Hawaii rolled up into one for the subsector.
Everyone from families to newlyweds, gamblers to wealthy dilettantes
travel there for "holiday."

There are also a number of large liners that travel the Beck route
catering to these vacationers.  The liners are the equivalent of the
cruise ships *and* the luxury liners from early this century.

I'm *sure* you could run a very interesting campaign either on a
liner or in the Beck system.  

On the liners the players could take on roles of crew (and not
necessarily senior crew).  Deal with thieves, hijackers, cheating
gamblers, a pack of pre-teens that decide to "have some fun" comes
to mind.  This wouldn't be your typical mercenary/merchant game, but
it could be interesting.

In the Beck system the choices for what they played would be *wide*
open!  Bar, cafe, lounge owners, workers, entertainers.  Law
enforcement agents.  Casino management or security.  All the folks
on the *Other* side.  You could campaign for years there, couldn't
you? ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 99 00:48:17 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Merchants

On 03/29/99 at 04:09 AM,  TravelrTNE@aol.com said:

>> >>I don't have SJG's merchant book yet, but in my (slowly reviving)

>> I just got it. It looks good so far.

>How bout a review, you Heretic?  ;-)

I'm afraid, that so far I've skimmed it and read two chapters.  ;->
I'll try to finish and give you a review, but it'll be a few days
yet.

>> IMTU, I made the "Spacer's Guild" (offical name Space Merchants and
><snip Bad Guy Guild stuff>

>Sounds like the Mercantile Guild [of Diaspora] in TNE.  

Does doesn't it.  ;-> 

It's actually...dare I say it...more illuminated than that.  At some
levels organized crime is in control.  At others it is a cabal of
big business. Behind both...;->

>> A few of the independents are trying to "organize" a competing
>> association in the Mark system.  They have recently taken a big hit
>> when one of their leaders "accidentally" fell 40 stories from the
>> suite of a notorious loan shark, Pele "Pickax" Hiika.
>> Coincidentally, the number two Guild representative on the planet
>> happened to be there at the time and corroborated Hiika's story that
>> "he'd been drinking and just leaned back over the balcony's rail and
>> fell."  Hiika also claims that the dead man owed him several hundred
>> thousand in debts, but can't produce any paperwork for that "loan."

>This sounds like good stuff.  ;-)  Just like a development in the
>Free Trader Network I'm planning for my campaigns...  Do you keep
>logs on teh web somewhere?  Do you allow lurkers?

No logs for two reasons.

 1. I'm too busy (or lazy) to put them up.  There are over 10,000
    posts in my AKUS folders now and there's NO WAY I'm either going
    to abstract them or put them all on a server somewhere.  ;-> I
    think Suz Dollar has something about my game on her page, but
    that is just a synopsis.
 
 2.  I don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing in
     this kind of game.  ;-> We've got three unsolved murders, an
     attack of an old lady in an alley, a mysterious yatch that
     seemed to be following our heroes, the sabotage of an air-raft,
     and an arson at a warehouse.  Political intrigue, treason, and
     espionage that only one character or another knows about.  A
     missing starship that *everybody* wants to find, including
     various "bad guys."  Several archaeological puzzles that will
     probably fall through the cracks because the archaeologist is
     anti-social.  And in the middle a bunch of characters that want
     to be explorers, merchants, archaeologists, or just get revenge
     on enemies...and none of them know *half* of what's going on.
     If I posted everything, especially if I abstracted it that
     would be telling.  ;-> Oh, and this doesn't include the camping
     trip on Gorath that found an ancient site or solving the case
     of the Blackmailing Cad on the way to Beck and although he was
     eventually murdered that's *not* what I meant...or do I?  ;->
     
...and we've covered 4 months of gametime now. ;->

Eris     
     
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:24:31 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote

> Does this mean that some scientists are former gamers? or that gamers
>think ahead? Or some gamers are scientific calibre?... I can't wait for my
>Type S Scout to hit the market. Can we preorder our force swords?

Gamers are science fiction addicts. All of what you mention appeared in SF
_long_ before it appeared in a game or IRL. One of  SFs jobs is to try and
predict future tends.

> And finally as a side note. With whats happening in Europe and the Y2K
>event... is anyone ready to play Twilight 2000 For real? Look at the names
>of where the fighting is taking place and then look at the names on your
>Twi 2000 maps.

They are not really related. T2000 is based on a full scale conventional war
with the Warsaw Pact as it was in the seventies, followed by a limited nuclear
excchange.  The only reason Yugoslavian names appear is that Yugoslavia was
one of the "border countries" of the Warsaw Pact, and is an obvious place for
fighting to occur.

IRL, the Warsaw Pact is basically non-existent, the Russian Confederation
would find itself hard pressed to mount an effective defence, let alone an
assault, and Germany has been re-united and is on NATO's side.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:32:05 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

>1.  Don't assume that a ship accelerates for the entire trip out.
>Generally speaking, a ship will accelerate for the first half of the
>journey, and decelerate for the second half, thus entering jumpspace
>with little or no relative velocity.  The reson for this is simple.  If
>you enter jumpspace moving like a bat out of Hell, you reenter normal
>space moving like a bat _into_ Hell.  Since you can't see ahead of time
>what might be in your way, this is generally considered to be a _bad_
>idea.

I'm sorry, but this is patently ridiculous.

If, as you assume, you conserve your velocity when entering jump space, you
will never get to the destination you are aiming for, because the relative
velocity between your ship and the target system is going to be _huge_ , even
assuming that you have cancelled your velocity relative to your own system.

Near C rocks ?
Try a near C jump torpedo.

The only way for jump to work as advertised is for it to "automagically" match
your velocity with that of the target system on exit from J-space, in which
case your velocity on entry to jump is completely irrelevant.

Frankie







 (Makes me feel like Tom Bodett in the Animaniacs cartoons' "Good
>Idea/Bad Idea" feature. ["Good Idea:  Entering jumpspace at a high
>velocity {shows Mr. Skullhead piloting the Millenium Falcon into
>lightspeed, just ahead of the TIE fighters}.  Bad Idea:  Re-entering
>normal space at a high velocity {shows Mr. Skullhead slamming smack into
>the side of the Death Star}.  The End."])
>
>2.  The tables may have already compensated for the gravitational effect
>of the celestial body in question.  Your calculations should do the
>same.
>
>3.  Without trying to reignite certain "discussions" on the TML, I would
>point out that the 10/100 diameter limit could refer to the _stellar_
>diameter, rather than the planetary diameter.  Try running those
>numbers, and see what you get.
>
>
>--
>------
>|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>|JOLT|
>|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
>|    |
>------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:41:02 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: M:IW - The Ernest Lord Rutherford

>At 10:06 PM 3/29/99 +1200, Andrew wrote:
>>Ernest Lord Rutherford, Rutherford class Explorer (FF&S v2)
>
>Well, I certainly have to applaud the fine class name!!!  ;-)
>
>Bill Rutherford

But are you related ? 

I slept in his primary school once, it's a Youth Hostel now.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:49:49 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

> Not quite,  it's one in 6 cubed or one in every 216 people. 
> Still way too high of course.
> 
>No,   a "12" on 2d6 is a 1 in 36 chance.
>
> 1/6 x 1/6 = 1/36.

Whoops, sorry.

Teach me to try and do maths before breakfast.

Actually for some reason I was thinking of Traveller being 3D6
because it  goes up to F. 

Obviously haven't been generating enough CT characters recently.

Frankie



 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 01:28:13 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote


>
>IRL, the Warsaw Pact is basically non-existent, the Russian Confederation
>would find itself hard pressed to mount an effective defence, let alone an
>assault, and Germany has been re-united and is on NATO's side.
>
At the risk of being off topic:

The Warsaw Pact was dissolved in, IIRC, 1990.  Since Poland joined NATO last
week, its obviously dead by now.  Note that Poland, Hungary, the Baltic
states, and what was then Czechoslovakia all petitioned NATO for "associate"
membership in 1991-92. While this was not given, there has been a tacit
assumption that NATO will look out for them if necessary (i.e, if Russia
became militaristic).  Note that Poland has been exercising with Germany and
the US.  Also, Germany is not only on NATO's side, but has been a member
since 1954.  Finally, given the level of defensive paranoia in the high
command of the Russian armed forces, the idea of invading the West to "save"
Serbia is laughable.  The Russian military has a very historical
perspective, and remembers quite well what happened last time they tried to
help their fellow Slavs- back in August, 1914.

ObTraveller:

Note how, of all the Imperium's many enemies, only those who were once a
part actually launched a full-scale invasion (the Solomani)?  Sadly, I
believe Yugoslavia is a very good example of what happens when the pin falls
out of the grenade.  Without loyalty to Tito, or any outside threat,
regions of Yugoslavia that haven't been independent in this Millenium are
suddenly restive.  Makes the Rebellion seem almost tame.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #369
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 370



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Missiles
Jump Duration
Ships: Payload/cargo density
Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: superdense (again)
RE: Max Accel
re: DGP question
Re: max accel
RE: Jump Duration
Re: GT Starships: two new hull types
Re: superdense (again)
Re: Jump Duration
A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: Garbage
Fleet Ops: Operational Scale Rules for HG
Jump Tanks Question
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #368

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:24:37 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: Missiles

TravelrTNE wrote:

> There are handwaves to explain the extremely good efficiency, too.  
> Most popular on the TNE list, it seems, is the Plasma Focus.

	There was a short discussion about the technology called as 
	"plasma focus" in TNE mailing list. It appears that this kind
	of technology might allow roughly similar results as "HEPlaR" 
	drive.

	In plasma focus experiments they are using high intensity lasers 
	or electron beams to induce microfusion (or other similar 
	reaction) in hydrogen plasma, and the resulting reaction 
	launches plasma sheath at 100-200 km/s velocity.

	If this kind of system could be as a basis for a space thruster, 
	it would mean that:

	1) System requires input energy for powering the lasers (or 
	   electron beams) and generating plasma.

	2) System uses hydrogen as fuel.	

	3) The reaction generates much energy, since the plasma pulse
	   is launched at much higher velocity than the input energy
	   would suggest.

	It appears that FF&S HEPlaR drive operates in a similar way.
	HEPlaR generates about 1980.2 times the thrust it should be
	generating, so there should be energy-producing reaction 
	somewhere.

	Therefore we might consider HEPlaR to be a kind of plasma focus 
	drive which achieves ~40361 km/s plasma velocity.

	This might be just an ugly handwave-explanation, but at least it 
	made me feel more comfortable with HEPlaR drives.

SD Mooney wrote:

> Could a small version of such technology make space scale plasma 
> weapons viable?

	Plasma focus might be a possible explanation for plasma and 
	fusion weapons. Since the reaction launches single pulse of 
	plasma at very high velocity, a plasma focus device could 
	probably be used as weapon.

	This kind of weapon might consist of:

	1) Plasma focus chamber which launches the plasma sheath.

	2) Magnetic lens (barrel) which concentrates the plasma into 
          narrow stream.

	3) Hydrogen fuel.

	4) Accumulator which gives a pulse of energy to plasma focus 
	   chamber.

	5) Power source.

	I haven't considered this kind of system as a space weapon. 
	Currently I use man-portable versions in my TNE campaign, and 
	call them with "PGMP-xx" or "FGMP-xx" -style names.

      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 02:36:06 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Jump Duration

I hadn't thought of the effect that jump duration would have on fleet
actions.

D6  roll of 1=(6 days in jump), 2 thru 5=(7 days in jump), and 6=(8 days in
jump) (MT/TNE)

For single ships this isn't a problem, but once you start trying to
coordinate two or more ships, things get interesting.  For any sizable
fleet, 17% of its ships will arrive in-system on day 6, 66% arrive on day 7,
and the remaining 17% will arrive on day 8.  (All % very approximate).  This
provides an interesting tactics problem, as the fleet will be divided for a
certain period of time, and a random mix of ships will be appearing out of
jump (over time).  Strategically, this means you would have to plan for
eight day movement cycles.

I assume that most game systems would ignore this little problem, but I'd be
interested in hearing how it would be handled otherwise.  How would it
affect ship design?  Fleet composition?  Would commanders stagger their
jump-entries, in order to ensure that main-line battle elements arrived
first?  Would stealth become more of a priority, since ships might have to
spend 24-48 hours without support?

It seems like some interesting developments might occur...

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:37:52 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Ships: Payload/cargo density

>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: max accel
>
>At 10:54 PM 3/29/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>
>>>>Note that the factor T is 7,000std (100,000m3). Adding a 1200 EP power
...
>True, my goof has already been pointed out.  The NC could handle the mass
>but not the volume of a Type T.  I'm not sure the Nimitz could and still
>have room for everything else.  Think of the stress involved in liftoff of
>something this size!

  Average density of CT/HG ships appears to be 10-14 metric tons per cubic
metere - _not_ 1:1; that Factor T weapon also _masses_ 70,000 to 100,000 tons.

  FWIW, that's small beans compared to the density of the IM APC on a Kinunir:
600 metric tons in 12 D-tons (168m^3).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:52:29 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Frank Pitt wrote:

>If, as you assume, you conserve your velocity when entering jump space, you
>will never get to the destination you are aiming for, because the relative
>velocity between your ship and the target system is going to be _huge_ , even
>assuming that you have cancelled your velocity relative to your own system.
>
>The only way for jump to work as advertised is for it to "automagically" match
>your velocity with that of the target system on exit from J-space, in which
>case your velocity on entry to jump is completely irrelevant.

This is simply solved by saying that the relative velocity with respect to the
"local" gravity well (IMTU that would be the local sun) is conserved. So a ship
travelling away from the star at 30km/s and enters jump , when leaving jump it
will be travelling at 30km/s away from the target star.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:05:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: superdense (again)

"Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com> writes:

>Or, does bonded mean that the superdense is glazed and
>chemically bonded to an inert substance?  (Think
>galvanized steel.)  This would theoretically amount to
>a ceramic skin on the armor and an improvement versus
>thermal and chemical (acid) attack.  I think BSD is just
>a minor improvement over superdense armor.  (No books
>handy.)

"Superdense is *metal* which has had its molecular structure partially
collapsed in a massive artificial gravity field (such as might be
encounterd in a white dwarf star), which increases its density and
strength. Bonded superdense has had its electron bonds artificially
strengthened, by means of a field similar to that used in damper
technology."

FFS1 p37

Performance ratios -

BSD:SD
2:1	Toughness
1:1	Mass
2:1	Cost

SD:Titanium
14:3	Toughness
15:8	Mass
2.8:1	Cost

Ratio indicates how much higher the first value is.

Later you write:

>Ouch, looks like I'm way off base on that.  Bonded just doesn't
>seem like the right word for a molecularly re-aligned material.
>Perhaps RSD (really superdense).  <g>

Bonded only has the metal collapsed and the bonds manipulated. Coherent
Bonded Superdense has the entire molecular structure aligned to resist
damage /stress and is TL17. Apologies if this wasn't clear.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:51:58 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Max Accel

>As for damage, an IR missile (Pen 11) or cannon (Pen 15) will only do minor
>(paint-scraping) damage to a star-fighter (AF 60). The special missile has
>a Pen of 65 vs the Rampart's armour. The beam laser has a Pen of 75, with
>_full_ effect against jets (rather than half as per Striker). This means
>that each hit does 75 damage points. My assumption is that this rule is
>used to show how much more deadly starship-grade weapons are than
>atmospheric weapons (the

Additionally, Striker allows Naval laser weapon fire to be treated as a
direct fire weapon, so no lags in delivery, which means you get at least a
shot every 30 seconds in CT terms. As 250 Mj starship lasers are treated as
having three lenses this tha shot every ten seconds, averaged.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:48:46 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: DGP question

"Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Did they ever publish the Psionic Races: The Zhodani and the Droyne?

Nope.

GT: AR1 covers the Zhodani quite well (as did the CT AM).
There is also a CT Droyne module, and a planned GT module.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:01:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>>a Traveller displacement ton is the volume occupied by 1 ton of liquid
>>hydrogen. It is a *volume* not a mass. It is not comparable to the IOWA's
>>displacement, which IIRC refers to the tons of water displaced, which is a
>>mass. The densities are different.
>>
>
>True, my goof has already been pointed out.  The NC could handle the mass
>but not the volume of a Type T.  I'm not sure the Nimitz could and still
>have room for everything else.  Think of the stress involved in liftoff of
>something this size!

Apologies for repeating the calc - I receive my mail in digest form so
there is a lag before I see other responses. You're right, it would be a
truly impressive thing to see fly.


>There would be IF she was a rectangle.  This is more the volume of a
>rectangle that could hold her.  She probably has about 1/3 to 1/4 this space
>inclosed.  I blew the math in the wrong direection.  Scaled up instead of
>down.  OOPPPsss!

I know about the rectangle - I over estimated deliberately as I didn't want
to factor in the changes in the aspect ratios along the ;ength. Lazy, I
know....

>>>One real fighter can launch many real missles.  One CT traveller rampart can
>>>fire it's laser only once.  I play CT and GT.  I have never seen rule to
>>>copy a f15/f16/f18 in CT.
>>
>>It's called Striker! and has a complete design sequence.

>Does it cover hard point/pylon mounted weaons?

Yes. Hardpoints, missile racks, turrets, remote turrets, bomb bays and
fixed mounts.


And from the other post:

>You missunderstand.  Superdense what?  What was made superdense?  I was
>saying titainium would be a go thing to make into a superdense material.
>You have to start with some normal matter.  Some matters will be better than
>others in making superdense.

See my post on superdense sent separately. Basically, FFS says 'metal' so I
believe Titanium could be used as the base metal.

Cheers
Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:00:48 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Jump Duration

I asked this before.  The way my GM explained it was that the ships
coordinate jump plans as they are about to jump and thus jump at the same
time and emerge at the same time.  I think that the randomness comes from
not always being in the same place to jump.  If a fleet is all together and
preparing to jump, then they are in general area and would operate together.


I could be off base and this is just a GM fiat to make it work.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Thad K. Sneed [mailto:revtks@apex2000.net]
		Sent:	Tuesday, March 30, 1999 3:36 AM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Jump Duration

		I hadn't thought of the effect that jump duration would have
on fleet
		actions.

		D6  roll of 1=(6 days in jump), 2 thru 5=(7 days in jump),
and 6=(8 days in
		jump) (MT/TNE)

		For single ships this isn't a problem, but once you start
trying to
		coordinate two or more ships, things get interesting.  For
any sizable
		fleet, 17% of its ships will arrive in-system on day 6, 66%
arrive on day 7,
		and the remaining 17% will arrive on day 8.  (All % very
approximate).  This
		provides an interesting tactics problem, as the fleet will
be divided for a
		certain period of time, and a random mix of ships will be
appearing out of
		jump (over time).  Strategically, this means you would have
to plan for
		eight day movement cycles.

		I assume that most game systems would ignore this little
problem, but I'd be
		interested in hearing how it would be handled otherwise.
How would it
		affect ship design?  Fleet composition?  Would commanders
stagger their
		jump-entries, in order to ensure that main-line battle
elements arrived
		first?  Would stealth become more of a priority, since ships
might have to
		spend 24-48 hours without support?

		It seems like some interesting developments might occur...

		Thad K. Sneed
		---------------------------------------------------------
		"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
		"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

		tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:59:40 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT Starships: two new hull types

>Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:39:35 -0700
>From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
>Subject: GT Modular Starship Design System: two new hull types
>
>Asteroid Hulls  [based on David Pulver's "Designer's Notes" for GURPS
>Vehicles 2/e]:
>
> [The main difference between heavy and extra-heavy frame is the resulting
>HT (health) of the ship.]
>

Heavy frame also multiplies the hull hit points by 2 (3x surface area),
while extra-heavy frame multiplies it by 4 (6x surface area). This may be
the more significant effect.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:26:26 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: superdense (again)

>
> Bonded only has the metal collapsed and the bonds manipulated. Coherent
> Bonded Superdense has the entire molecular structure aligned to resist
> damage /stress and is TL17. Apologies if this wasn't clear.

IIRC, Coherent Bonded Superdense rearranges itself to maximize its
protection against any specific weapon type.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:36:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Duration

On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Thad K. Sneed wrote:

> I hadn't thought of the effect that jump duration would have on fleet
> actions.
> 
> D6  roll of 1=(6 days in jump), 2 thru 5=(7 days in jump), and 6=(8 days in
> jump) (MT/TNE)
> 
> For single ships this isn't a problem, but once you start trying to
> coordinate two or more ships, things get interesting.  For any sizable
> fleet, 17% of its ships will arrive in-system on day 6, 66% arrive on day 7,
> and the remaining 17% will arrive on day 8.  (All % very approximate).  This
> provides an interesting tactics problem, as the fleet will be divided for a
> certain period of time, and a random mix of ships will be appearing out of
> jump (over time).  Strategically, this means you would have to plan for
> eight day movement cycles.
> 
> I assume that most game systems would ignore this little problem, but I'd be
> interested in hearing how it would be handled otherwise.  How would it
> affect ship design?  Fleet composition?  Would commanders stagger their
> jump-entries, in order to ensure that main-line battle elements arrived
> first?  Would stealth become more of a priority, since ships might have to
> spend 24-48 hours without support?
> 
> It seems like some interesting developments might occur...

What I understood from this is that the variance is a physical/astrometric
factor that is present in a "region" at the time. A fleet coordinating a
jump using the same or near same tech level jump system would have the
same astrometric variables affecting them.

The problem would be co-ordinating multiple fleets along multiple paths
trying to arrive at an objective at the same time. The variances in jump
time over multiple jumps would end up resulting in some interesting
problems, as one fleet would show up perhaps a couple days after the first
group.
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:38:23 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles

TravelrTNE@aol.com schrieb:
> 
> > >Original FF&S is pretty explicit that HEPLaR was just a heat exchanger that
> > >could be powered by any kind of power plant.  All it is is heating lhyd to
> a
> > >plasma and expelling it out the back.
> >
> > This is what annoys me - T-plates were handwaves, but so is HEPLaR. <sigh>
> 
> It's just HEPlaR is a 'better' handwave.  ;-)  lol.  No violations of any
> fundamental laws and you got to keep track of your gas.  Course, if you did it
> with the ridiculous pre-FF&S power plants, you should be able to handle it.  I
> can buy some of the T-plate arguments (after all, IMTU they come in at TL-17),
> but they just seem weak compared to HEPlaR.  It's a personal preferance thing,
> though the claim that HEPlaR is flawed is quite debatable, though.

<snip>

IMTU thrusters work the same way as a gondola in venice:
The gondolier pushes with his stick against the bottom thus using the
rest of the planet as reaction mass. As this effect upon earth might be
to small to be measured, this method might be described as being
reaction less.

Thrusters push against the structure of space-time, thus using the rest
of the universe as reaction mass. IMTU this causes some ripples in
space-time (small gravitational waves) which can be sensed by
densitometers.


Comparing thrusters to HEPlaR (FFS V1):

to generate 100 metric tonnes of thrust you need:

HEPlaR:
0.5 m3,  0.5 t,  5 MW,  0.005 MCr

Thrusters:
2.5 m3,  5 t,  2.5 MW,  2.5 MCr


the same IMTU at TL14:

HEPlaR:
0.5 m3,  0.5 t,  5 MW,  0.01 MCr

Thrusters:
1.6 m3,  4 t,  20 MW,  0.16 MCr


Speaking for MTU there is only one reason to use thrusters:
They do not consume fuel. In all other aspect the are (seriously)
inferior to HEPlaR, especially when you are in need of lots of thrust.


Just something for you to think about ...
(Sounds of author suddenly disappearing into fireproof hiding....)  :-)

Bye
Holger Paradin Kadlez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:42:13 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: IgNoble Etiquette

Dave Nelson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
	I did notice that in an early traveller work, either Traveller Book or
Citizens of the Imperium, there was a list of "thugs"  or something like that,
to be used as quick opponents in gunfights or brawls etc., and these guys were
just randomly rolled guys, but one was indeed a social status C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
You get into a brawl in a starport tavern, you later find out that the guy
you slid down the length of the bar was a Duke, incognito and out
slumming. Oops.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:55:49 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) writes:

>>>There aren't any canon designs that have drop tank equipped ships w/o
>>>internal tankage are there?

Not the way you appear to define canon (the body of published adventures as
opposed to the rules). But not everybody are as willing to consider the
rules to be of secondary importance as you are. As you know, I for one think
the rules are even more important than the background (because a good,
self-consistent rules-set, if adhered to by writers, will ensure that the
background is also self-consistent).

Mind you, that dosen't mean I don't think the background is important.

>>>This is what needs to be outlawed by the design systems IMO.

Fair enough. But this is also a canon change.

>*Nothing* says every last drop of j-fuel is consumed at the instant of jump,
>is there?

Well, yes. The rules. You can take your Gazelle, initiate a jump that uses
all the drop tank fuel, drop the drop tanks, make the jump and arrive at your
destination with every last drop of your interior fuel intact.

>Drop tanks exist in every version of Traveller.

And they perform the same in every version.

>I'm taking it there are no designs with drop tanks lacking internal tankage?

None published (IIRC), but there's an awful lot of TCS designs out there
that used to be legal and would not be if your change was adopted.

>The only problems w/ drop tanks (aside from eventually sundering economic
>assumptions), is the issue that is only a problem if you're the "instant
>consumption" model of J-drive.  

Even with your model you have J-2 worth of fuel being consumed instantly
(actually, in 20-40 minutes), so I don't quite see just how it solves
any problems with the instant consumption of J-4 worth of fuel. Reduce
them, perhaps, but how does it solve anything?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:56:28 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fleet Ops: Operational Scale Rules for HG

The things one gets tangled in. I try and write a paragraph of variant
rules, I find myself writing pages. <G>

I was writing some variant HG rules for ambushes by SDB's during gas
gaint refueling operations, and realized that HG has no operational scale
movement rules. Ships are moved strategically (via Jump or long hauls
to or from the Outer System) and sort of moved tactically (line of battle
to and from the reserve), but there isn't any way to differentiate between
the fleet defending the gas giant and the fleet defending the main
world. We can't have that now, can we?

I'm putting the touches on a first draft of operational-scale rules for HG.
Basically, the battle for a star system takes place in alternating movement 
phases and combat phases. The star system is divided into the Inner 
System, the Outer System, and System Defense Zones (SDZ's). The "Inner
System" is an abstraction representing transit times between points of
interest like worlds and gas giants, the Outer System is pretty much as
it is in TCS - it represents the safety of deep, deep space. Each SDZ
represents the area of space around a point of interest, such as a main
world, gas giant, etc.[1] 

In a movement phase, any ship can move from an SDZ to the Inner System.
Ships in the Inner System must move to either an SDZ or to the Outer
System, while ships in the Outer System are out of the fight until the
next TCS turn.

Note that all SDZ's are adjacent to the Inner System for movement
purposes, but not adjacent to each other[2] - if two points of interest are
that close together, these rules would place them both in the same
SDZ - for example, Luna is included in the Earth SDZ.

During each combat phase, ships within each SDZ fight just like HG
rules. Combat continues until one side is destroyed, surrenders, or
breaks off (must move to Inner System next movement phase). A standoff
can also occur, if no ships have been damaged for five HG combat rounds.

Rules for jumping in-system, operational movement by small craft, pursuit,
interception, and refueling are also included. And yes, rules for SDB's
pouncing on fuel-scooping starships in the depths of a gas giant are part of 
the mix. I should have it to the list by the end of the week.

What I'd like to hear from the list:

Is an area/operational rules set for HG an interesting idea? Or does it add
such a level of complexity that we'd be better off going straight to a hexes
board game?

What happens to an HG/TCS game when you have to defend two or three
gas giants as well as your main world? I think it will make HG strategic
games less bloody, as a careful enemy will be able to refuel and retreat
when hard pressed - or he'll be able to defeat your defense fleet piecemeal
as you try and defend all the refueling sources.

BTW, I'm still working on my Fleet Tac variant for HG. These operational
scale rules should be entirely compatible with Fleet Tac.
"Fleet Tac" is my working title for the Imperium-inspired High Guard
combat rules involving match-ups and screening elements instead of
two fleet ramming all ships into each other.

Variants, variants, variants...Fighter Strike, Fleet Tac, Fleet Ops.
Not to mention Logistics and Area Point Defense/Escorts. I like HG,
it gives me ideas. <G>

Walt Smith

Notes
[1] My concept of SDZ is based on the idea that an invading fleet has
some objectives in mind - fuel, destruction of enemy bases, whatever.
If two fleets want to destroy each other, they could just mutually define
any empty chunk of space as the "All the Marbles SDZ" and send all their
ships there.

[2] One variant would be for a GM to lay out the star system and
define specific transit times between each SDZ. This would be fine,
but I think that level of detail would be better saved for a full-fledged
"Battle of Jewell" wargame...I'd like to keep this simpler than that, while
still providing a feel for fighting an entire system rather than have every
fight for every system be one big battle all at once.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:07:27 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Jump Tanks Question

I know this issue has been done to death :)

But two questions...
Are Jump tanks discusses in G: V? if not has anyone done a write up of 
them for GT ?
2) will they fit on a type S..a character IMC wants to do this? wouldn't 
the jump tanks 'imbalance' the jump field?
Thanks..

Mike 
P.S. I don't believe I ever 'formaly' introduced myself. I'm in DC and 
have played Traveller on and off for about 10 years. I'm glad to see 
that SJG is publishing some new material, as I ma a big GURPS fan. My 
knowledge of the Traveller universe however pales in comparison to long 
time members of the list :) In my eyes I'll be a newbie for a LONG time 
:)
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:09:39 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #368

>Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:02:50 -0800
>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
>Subject: Re: DGP Question
>Michael McKeown wrote:
>>Did they ever publish the Psionic Races: The Zhodani and the Droyne?
>
>Nope. Though I've seen outlines of the unpublished book on the web
>somewhere along with those for Black Duke, an adventure book dealing with
>Dulinor.

GDW did publish a Droyne book.  Alien module 5.

							Andy

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #370
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 371



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fleet Ops: Operational Scale Rules for HG
Re: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: Career/Love/Gaming
Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply
Re: max accel
Re: IgNoble ettiquette
re: Fleet Ops...
re: Max Accel
re: IgNoble etiquette
(OT) Crusade Cancellation--More Information

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:53:49 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops: Operational Scale Rules for HG

At 09:56 AM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
>The things one gets tangled in. I try and write a paragraph of variant
>rules, I find myself writing pages. <G>

        I am familiar with that web....  =)

        [Overview of game mechanics snipped]

>What I'd like to hear from the list:
>
>Is an area/operational rules set for HG an interesting idea? Or does it add
>such a level of complexity that we'd be better off going straight to a hexes
>board game?

        I think it is a much better idea than hexes...  However, there is
one small issue that it develops.  Allow me to use an IMTU example.  In near
game future, the Bad Guys are going to attack a heavily defended colony
world.  Precendent says that they will genocide the colonists if they
succede in reaching the world.  All that is there is a small battlefleet and
a reasonably mean TL11 battlestation
.
        When you cut the level of abstraction down as you describe, the Bad
Guys jump immediately to the ISZ and then straight to the SDZ around the
planet.  Great.  What game mechanic is in place that says they have to
actually attack the defending fleet?  IE:  Once they are within 50000km of
the world, what rules mechanic is in place to say that they have to defeat
the defense fleet before bombing the world?  

        Logically, the defenders would engage the incoming warships from the
edge of the SDZ, to allow as early an engagement as possible.  However, with
space being loosly defined as "bigger than really, really big", and
engagements really only taking place by mutal consent, how does your concept
handled "end runs" instead of "break throughs"?

>What happens to an HG/TCS game when you have to defend two or three
>gas giants as well as your main world? I think it will make HG strategic
>games less bloody, as a careful enemy will be able to refuel and retreat
>when hard pressed - or he'll be able to defeat your defense fleet piecemeal
>as you try and defend all the refueling sources.

        What would happen is rather much like current naval doctrine of
"SAG"'s (Surface Action Groups).  You spread your defenses out over the area
by priority...  really, who *cares* if he refuels?  Sure, its a great
opprtunity to bushwhack at cruiser with an SDB, but otherwise, what
difference does it make?  Since the only thing that can hurt a cruiser+
sized vessel is a spinal mount, and they pile so many hits on in one shot,
not to mention criticals, a full fuel tank can become an empty tank in one
soild hit anyway.  If he tries to escape by jumping out, ok, he can't use
any energy-consuming weapons and you get to pound on him unanswered.  This
is hardly a bad thing.  
        So you put a few picket ships out at each of the SDZ's with a
cruiser as the SAG commander, resign yourself to them being flaming datums
when the bad-guy shows up and stack your biggest assets around the things
you cannot afford the bad guy to attack.

        For system interdiction, then perhaps the battle for the gas giant
will become the meat grinder and not the main world.  Most major systems
will be able to survive just fine for considerable time with interstellar
trade interdicted.

>Walt Smith
>

        This opinionated rant brought to you by:

                --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:03:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: StarDestroyer > Scout Ship (was RE: Career/Love/Gaming)

At 05:33 PM 3/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> > One of her chracters is a CT scout.  Do any of you have any ideas about
>> > converting a Star Wars 'star destroyer' into a large scale traveller
>> > scout
>
>A friend of mine already did this. If I can borrow it I'll shoot a
>picture and post it.
>
>-Merrick
>

Many thanks.

Any ideas on how to do the 400ton scout?  What would you convet from and
what would you use to do the conversion.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:03:38 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

At 08:21 PM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:45 PM 3/29/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>Lasers can be countered by arisols and ablative armor.  I think in the end
>>energy weapons will have to go tward very high output and short duration.
>>In effect HE energy 'shells'.  Plazma/fussion guns most likely.  Lasers are
>>going to have a lot of trouble with real armor. (Heat dispersion.)  You'll
>>need the penetration/punch of an hypersonic ice pick with the stoping power
>>of HE.  Lasers are just not the best for this.  We may still be using direct
>>fire shells for a long time to take out heavy armor.
>
>Sounds kinda like the Hellbore weapon from the Bolo books.  A sliver of
>frozen deuterium, fusing, fired at .6-.7C...  The output is measured in
>Megatons per second.... :)
>
>

Either that or chemically pump plazma weapons like in Hammer Slammers.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:03:49 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Career/Love/Gaming

At 06:52 PM 3/29/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>
>> inhabited by the spirit of Barron von Ricktoffein (spelling?).  You know,
>> "the bloody Red Barron of Germany."  Let's hope nobody discovers where those
>> missing Lewis guns went...
>
>Baron Manfred von Richtofen - Red Baron
>
>There is a discussion group at:
>http://www.researchpaper.com/forums/History/messages/175.html
>
>The Richtofen class triplane for Traveller is available at:
>http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard/vera/vera0006.html
>
>A GURPS higher tech level fighter is at:
>http://www.infini.fr/~jpmichel/page/gurps/Rfight.html
>
>--Glenn
>

Thanks for the info.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:04:00 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply

At 10:57 PM 3/29/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/29/99 6:24:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, JLAROSEE@aol.com
>writes:
>
><<   Still a lot of flexibility in my plans. I've asked this question before,
> but let me again solicit some experienced advice: What would you like to see
> in your FLGS?  What features, amenities, whatever is offered that would/does
> set it apart and earn your patronage? >>
>
>
>	One of the best games stores I've ever seen is The Game Parlour in Chantilly
>Virginia, it is really quite excellent, almost beyond words.  There is even a
>review of the store on www.RPG.NET, search the review database.
>
>	The best things about the store are as follows:
>	1) Everything is arranged by theme rather than by company.  All the fantasy
>stuff--rules, magazines, minatures is together, all the Sci-fi stuff is
>together as well.  This makes finding what you want much easier .  it also
>makes buying supporting material such as miniatures, mats, play-aids much more
>tempting.
>	2)  Game playing space provided:  there are over a dozen game tables and even
>a separate role-play room all of which are availible for reservation.   I
>can't tell you how much more money I've spent since I go in there every two
>weeks to run my game.  If you give people a place to play, they will want to
>support you by buying their products from you rather than elsewhere, I know I
>try to by everything at the Game Parlour, if possible.  They also make some
>money selling packaged food like candy and sodas.
>	3)  Gamers run the register:   it makes customers feel doubly welcome.
>
>
>	best of luck to you, and if you ever get to DC go to the Game Parlour, it's
>worth a look.  (It's not too far from Dulles Airport)
>
>			Dave Nelson  
> And no, I don't have a financial interest. 
>

Sounds like the Sword of the Phenix in Atlanta for layout.  Sounds great!

Some posible suggestions if you're interested.  My current hobby shop has
been in bussiness for several decades now and has made it through some tough
times for the industry.  One thing that has helped them besides being on the
main road out of the largest military base in North America (Fort Brag/Pope
Airforce base) is that they carry more than just games.  They have a large
and diverse model section, some colectables of local interest, Squadron
books, and used games.  The owner also go the extra mile for their
customers.  They have often found old out of print games for me.  Some from
gamers selling their own collection and some form the back corner of some
forgot warehouse.  They also have a 'subscription service' of sorts.  If I
or another customer find something I want they will hold it for me or order
and hold it untill I return to get it. (Monthly in my case).  I often call
in requests after seeing something here.  They also pull my Dragon magazine
and other new stuff they think I may want JIC.  This 'extra' service makes
for very loyal customers.  I call them first for anything they carry.

Also the large model selection bring in children and their parrent looking
for both models and knowledgable advice.  Those model customers see all
these other neat things and start shopping for other things...

More than one person came for models, tries some of the board games, and
finally a 'REAL' game like traveller.  Incrimentallize can work for more
than just political things.  

The senergy of a healthy game store is amazing as everybody wants to help
everybody else learn their favorite game/hobby and with each new game/ hobby
your circle of friends/fellows expands.  Everybody wins.

Charles L.
Amatuer game store shill. (Grin)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:04:11 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 01:10 AM 3/30/99 EST, you wrote:
><snip integrated use of EMS, Densitometer, LADAR, etc>
>
>> Many of these capabilities are useless in the atmosphere.  Long wave radar
>> can not be used without a deploy antenea of the right length (100+ meters!)
>> Forget gamma rays, densometer, and Ladar.  Air is not a homogenious media.
>
>Duh.  We're told EMS sensors cover *everything* in between longwave radar and
>gamma rays.  That includes longwave radio, shortwave radio, microwave radio,
>heat/IR, visible light, UV, X-ray, Gamma.
>

NOT PHYSICALLY POSIBLE.

I have designed transmiter/reciever sets.  There are physical limits to
turner range and sensitivity.  There are to many diferences to even begin to
discuss between search and targeting radar sets and high sensitivity pasive
detectors.  Your swiss army sensor set is not physically doable without some
form of self reconfigurable nanotech self rebuilding systems.

Here is a simple real world comparision.  Design a device that duplicated
all the functionality of the Hubble telescope, the Harp instalation, an
electron microcscope, an optical 10,000x microscope,  a NMR scaner, lidar, a
search radar, and a targeting radar in a package that will fit in a F15.

The equipment needed to transmit laser, x-ray, gamma rays, and radio waves
are all very physically different and each has a limited tuneable range.

When you can place in front of me a single transducer that can
simultaniously transmit and recieve 1hz, 100hz, 1khz, 10Mhz, 900Mhz, visible
laser, x-laser, and 3.58Ghz. signals over a useful distance (100KW radiated
power per signal band minimum) then you have a chance to convence me.  Note
that 'signal' does not mean noise.  It mush be capable of modulation.

>> Also there is the problem with training.  How much training time has the
>> space ace had flying in the atmosphere and using all those sensors?  I'd say
>> he spent most of his time practicing space combat and what was left in
>> various atmospheres while the defender will know his world very well indeed.
>
>Well unfortunately Traveller history is against you, as the usage of these
>sensors (EMS, at least) in atmospheres is well documented (try every TL-10+

There is nothing in canon that contradics what I have said.  It is your
assumptions of the range of capabilities on the ems that is overestimated.
Everthing I have seen in canon could be done with a fairly simple sensor set
without all the exotics you have claimed.  Basic combat aircraft radars,
ladar, a good broad band passive reciever similer to today SIGINT systems, a
good telescope with a spectrometer, a set of basic radiation sensors, a
basic braod band transciever set like those used by ham inthusists plus an
add on to cover the Ghz bands, and a decient computer to integrate the parts
and provide some in built expert systems.  Nothing magical or mysterious.
Yes the system has some holes but a fighter and a free trader is not
supposed to carry a full lab with them.  Your gain roles off at the high and
low ends of each band but the system is servicable and can be built small
and cheap enough to be reasonable.  CCD for the telescope, a set of loadable
antennas frame mounted, the search/targeting radars can be designed to share
and antenna, ladar will need it's own head, and the radiation sensors can be
surface mounted.

Have I missed anything important here for a basic sensor set?

>design) in both grav and space vehicles that have no problems operating in the
>others environment.  We're talking bout a TL-15 Rampart here that has
>holographic dymanic linked computers that can assist the user and is very
>nearly AI by itself.  It's a no brainer.  The tech is the great equalizer.  
>

Sorry, no amount of computer assistance can improve an unaugmented human's
data bandwidth.  It can only prioritize that data along preset lines.  Ask
the airforce about it.  They have been fighting this problem for 20+ years.

>> Not true.  Space and atmospheric sensors that provide usefull data are very
>> different.  The design of radar systems are a science in and of itself.
>> Also look at the surface area of effective space sensors.  How are you going
>> to deploy them in an atmosphere without them being torn off?  You can't have
>> a 20 foot dish on a plane expected to travel 100s of MPH and perform high g
>> manuvers.  A little thing call wind load.
>
>Listen, Charles.  The space sensors (AEMS and PEMS, at least) are *everything*
>that the atmospheric sensors are (at least when coupled with the atmospheric
>flight avionics).  The differences you're focusing on are gone (or glossed
>over) at TL-10 w/ the development of EMS sensors.  That's the basic and
>underlying presumption.
>
>There arent' any 20 foot dishes on the Rampart (in BL anyways).  The Rampart
>has a (60,000km short range) fixed apeture synthesis array of dispersed
>elements that have a diameter that total 5m for its PEMS.  It's not just one
>big Sony DSS on the nose cone.  lol.  *That's* certainly not in the artwork.
>;-)
>

That's true.

>I trust u've finally conceded that by TL-15, aerospace fighters are mostly
>replaced by grav tanks?  Avionics & airframe make the space fighter an
>aerospace fighter.
>

No.  I pity the aerospace fighter that comes up against a purpose built
atmosphereric or space fighter.

There is no free lunch.  For every design decision you make you make another
posibility no longer posible.  That is what is ment by design trade offs.  A
generalist can not win against a specialist in the specialist area of
expertese.  Never play a man at his own game.  An SR71 can't dogfight an F15
and the F15 can't out race an SR71.

>> I do not have any of these GT, and Gurps vehicles are my perfered systems.
>> With them you can build nearly any currently made Military gear.
>
>Ditto with TNE & FF&S.  And I can do it in metric.  : P
>

I'm an EE.  I can work in both systems.  My problem is converting between
the two so I don't do it.  I pick one and use it for the job at hand.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:14:05 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: IgNoble ettiquette

Dave Nelson writes:

>In a message dated 3/28/99 8:49:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
> 
><< 
> And yes, I know no one specifically _says_ that they are as numerous as
> the old European nobility, but that's the way they are portrayed in the
> character generation rules and the various adventures...
>  
>  >>
>God,  if you take the character generation rules literally, then 1 out of
>every 36 people is a Baron!
 
I don't take them literally, but many supplements and adventures did. For
instance, the _Luuru_, a ship with a crew of 70, had two barons and three
knights in the crew. One of the barons was a marine private!

>BobS (RnLschaefr@aol.com) writes:

>Is it not  possible that most of the titles handed out by the Imperial Royals
>are are not inheritable? 

It is a matter of canon that there are non-inheritable titles. But the
Imperium needs a number of nobles that can be estimated:

If you use a top-down analysis you get:

1 emperor                         =      1
1 archduke per domain             =      6
1 duke per subsector              =    300- (not all subsectors rate a duke)
3-4 counts per subsector          =  1,100+
1 marquis per major world         =  5,000+
3-4 barons per major world        = 17,500+
some more barons for minor worlds =  2,500?

A total of between 20 and 30,000. Add an unspecified number of court and
achievement nobles and you may double or perhaps triple that number. Add
unto that comes an unspecified number of relatives. A lot depends on your
assumptions.

>The Royal Family in England is famous for handing out 'titles' to singers
>(Elton Lohn) and actors (Michael Redgrave) that can't be passed on to their
>heir's....The British Isle's might become top heavy with Nobility otherwise...

In 1970 England had 869 peers out of a population of 46 million.

Bruce Johnson writes:

>Also, before people start going off on this...player character generation
>in no way is supposed to be indicative of the general population of the OTU.
>Remember Travellers are those rare people who go jaunting about the universe
>having adventures, instead of the 99.99% of the rest of the people who have
>an 8-5er in their home city on their home planet. That makes barons at
>.0003% (more or less) of the population.

And Ian Ferguson writes:

>Of course, you can argue that not everybody who has that social standing
>necessarily has the family title. Anyways this is meant to reflect the
>incidence of nobles in the ranks of Travellers, not in the general
>population.

That is eminently reasonable, but that's not the way previous writers of
Traveller material have done it. Go though any of the adventures you have
and you'll find thugs, belters, rogues, soldiers, sailors, and customs
clercs that have been generated by the unmodified character generation
system.

Incidentally, while younger sons of nobles ought to be over-represented
in the ranks of travellers, holders of titles should be under-represented.
After all, if you're an Imperial duke, you ought to have your hands full
governing your subsector and not have time to go gallivanting around the
universe. 

Dave Nelson writes:

>	I did notice that in an early traveller work, either Traveller Book or
>Citizens of the Imperium, there was a list of "thugs"  or something like that,
>to be used as quick opponents in gunfights or brawls etc., and these guys were
>just randomly rolled guys, but one was indeed a social status C.

Precisely.

Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

>...what about handwaving that the roll makes you a LOCAL noble (which
>is useless for travelling...)? If you repeat the roll; you are an Imperial
>knight. If you repeat the roll a third time, you are a baronet...It cuts the
>numbers down to a more reasonable percentage...

That's what I've done IMTU, except that I don't think you are nearly hard
enough. My social status scale goes up to 33 and the Imperial nobility
don't start until level 24:


Description                       Social   Old Terran
				 Standing  Equivalent

Near-noble (Gentry)                 12      Squire
Appointed noble                     13      Knight
Very rich/powerful non-noble        14      Magnate
Hereditary noble, no base           15      Banneret
Town-sized base (1000)              16      Baron
County-sized base (10,000)          17      Count/Earl
Region-sized base (100,000)         18      Marquis/Duke
Province-sized base (1 million)     19      Archduke/Prince
Country-sized base (10 million)     20      King
Empire-sized base (100 million)     21      Emperor
Continent-sized base (1 billion)    22      [No equivalent]
World-sized base (10 billion)       23      [No equivalent]

[I modify the above according to various factors to account for prevailing
Imperial prejudices:

Pre-industrial society   -4      Sovereign ruler                 +1
Industrial society       -2      Elected or appointed official   -1
Pre-stellar society      -1      Heir to position                -1
Early Stellar society     0      Younger children                -2
Average Stellar society  +1
High Stellar society     +2      Minor non-human race            -1

All modifications are guidelines only. Positions that reach 24 and above
will almost invariably recieve an Imperial noble title (So the ruler of a
planet with billions of citizens and a High Stellar technology would be at
least an Imperial marquis, propably more.]
		

Imperial titles:

Knights (various orders and levels)  14-23
Baron                                  24
Marquis                                25
Freeholder                             26
Count                                  27
Scion                                  28
Duke                                   29
Senior Duke                            30
Archduke/Prince                        31
Crown Prince                           32
Emperor                                33


Freeholder was a leftover from the days of the Sylean Federation. It was
never awarded by the 3rd Imperium and by 1100 there were only four remaining
freeholders. Consequently most people had never heard of the title. Scion
was a title given to the children of Imperial princes and princesses who
didn't have another title of their own. The children of scions were not
automatically Imperial nobles. If, for example, Paulo III had not given
his brother Asan a dukedom, Asan would still have been a prince, but his
daughter Cassir would have been a scion and her daughter Margaret would
not have been a noble (Though in practice both Cassir and Margaret would
almost certainly had marrired high nobles). As it is, they were both
duchesses. Since most Imperial princes and princesses did recieved fiefs
of their own or married nobles, the title was never used much.

[I introduced the freeholder and the scion so that one could easily convert
from my system to the official by simply halving the numbers (rounding up).
This will cause Imperial nobles to have the correct Social Standing according
to the official system. You'd still have to device some new way to roll
Social Standing for PCs and NPCs, since the planetary nobility would occupy
the levels from 7 to 11, so if you rolled SS with two dice, you'd have a
society with more than half of the population nobles!]


And here's a small vignette to round off. Unfortunately I'm a lousy artist,
so you'll have to settle for a verbal description:

At a brilliant gala ball. An unshaven slob of a marine in a dirty uniform
is stuffing his face with small dainty bits of food piled high on a plate
in his hand. A stereotypical dowager duchess in a gorgeous ball gown is
looking at him through her lorngette. Between them stands a diplomat type
in coat and tails (or, since this is science fiction, perhaps he is wearing
a formal jump suit (a jump suit with dress clothes printed on) and
introduces them to each other. Text: "Your Grace, may I present to you
Arnold, Baron Travesty. His Lordship is a private of marines on the
_Luuru_."


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:14:58 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops...

Michel Vaillancourt  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        I think it is a much better idea than hexes...  However, there is
one small issue that it develops.  Allow me to use an IMTU example.  In near
game future, the Bad Guys are going to attack a heavily defended colony
world.  Precendent says that they will genocide the colonists if they
succede in reaching the world.  All that is there is a small battlefleet and
a reasonably mean TL11 battlestation
.
        When you cut the level of abstraction down as you describe, the Bad
Guys jump immediately to the ISZ and then straight to the SDZ around the
planet.  Great.  What game mechanic is in place that says they have to
actually attack the defending fleet?  IE:  Once they are within 50000km of
the world, what rules mechanic is in place to say that they have to defeat
the defense fleet before bombing the world?  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
At the level of abstraction I'm using, all defenders in the main world SDZ
would be in one fleet - including the Main World and any significant
satellites. If the main world has no defenses or weapons it would start
in the reserve, and couldn't be attacked until the defender ran out of 
functional fleet. Of course, the main world couldn't choose engagement
ranges or break off - engagement would start at long range, then move
to short range. Considering that you can jump to 100 diameters, your
defense fleet won't have much time to stop them anyway.

When I've completed the first draft of Fleet Tac I'll have to pay careful
attention to defense of worlds - images of an enemy bomber squadron
slipping past your destroyers as they fight for their lives against an
enemy light cruiser squadron.

Michel again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        Logically, the defenders would engage the incoming warships from the
edge of the SDZ, to allow as early an engagement as possible.  However, with
space being loosly defined as "bigger than really, really big", and
engagements really only taking place by mutal consent, how does your concept
handled "end runs" instead of "break throughs"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Some of that will be covered by pursuit and interception rules that I'm
working on (based on Maneuver instead of Agility for operational scale
purposes). Space is big, and it's hard to be sneaky, so end runs will
be hard to pull off if the defender doesn't have as far to go as you do.

Michel again:
>What happens to an HG/TCS game when you have to defend two or three
>gas giants as well as your main world? I think it will make HG strategic
>games less bloody, as a careful enemy will be able to refuel and retreat
>when hard pressed - or he'll be able to defeat your defense fleet piecemeal
>as you try and defend all the refueling sources.

        What would happen is rather much like current naval doctrine of
"SAG"'s (Surface Action Groups).  You spread your defenses out over the area
by priority...  really, who *cares* if he refuels?  Sure, its a great
opprtunity to bushwhack at cruiser with an SDB, but otherwise, what
difference does it make?  Since the only thing that can hurt a cruiser+
sized vessel is a spinal mount, and they pile so many hits on in one shot,
not to mention criticals, a full fuel tank can become an empty tank in one
soild hit anyway.  If he tries to escape by jumping out, ok, he can't use
any energy-consuming weapons and you get to pound on him unanswered.  This
is hardly a bad thing.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing that can hurt a cruiser is an SDB that jumps it at the worst
possible moment during gas giant refueling ops. No shields, no agility,
no effective computer advantage, most weapons useless...owie.

If your objective is to defend a main world, giving the enemy the ability
to retreat can save your life. If your job is to keep his Vengeance Fleet
from refueling at your frontier world so he can jump deeper into your
empire for commerce raiding, your defense focus changes. If your
objective is to pin down and destroy his fleet rather than drive it off, 
interference with refueling becomes critical.

Michel again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip>

        For system interdiction, then perhaps the battle for the gas giant
will become the meat grinder and not the main world.  Most major systems
will be able to survive just fine for considerable time with interstellar
trade interdicted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Eventually I'd like to put together some good rules for planetary defenses.
Some way to make seiges possible - the attacking fleet doesn't dare send
it's capital ships within 10D of that well-defended main world, so they
orbit at 70D and whack any incoming or outgoing vessels. The defense
fleet hangs out at 10D or less, within range of the planetary meson
emplacements, ready to intercept any cocky enemy commando
raids. What breaks the stalemate?

Thanks for the input Michel.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:22:00 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Max Accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When you can place in front of me a single transducer that can
simultaniously transmit and recieve 1hz, 100hz, 1khz, 10Mhz, 900Mhz, visible
laser, x-laser, and 3.58Ghz. signals over a useful distance (100KW radiated
power per signal band minimum) then you have a chance to convence me.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Are you willing to spot me about seven tech levels? I know I can't build
one of those at TL7-8, but let me see what I can get you after another
millenia or so of physics research and technical innovation.

Heck, given a millenia to work on it, we might be able to fit it in a
wristwatch.  <weg>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:33:47 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: IgNoble etiquette

Hans Ranke-Madsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
At a brilliant gala ball. An unshaven slob of a marine in a dirty uniform
is stuffing his face with small dainty bits of food piled high on a plate
in his hand. A stereotypical dowager duchess in a gorgeous ball gown is
looking at him through her lorngette. Between them stands a diplomat type
in coat and tails (or, since this is science fiction, perhaps he is wearing
a formal jump suit (a jump suit with dress clothes printed on) and
introduces them to each other. Text: "Your Grace, may I present to you
Arnold, Baron Travesty. His Lordship is a private of marines on the
_Luuru_."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I saw a documentary some years back on european nobility. They
interviewed a titled englishman - higher than a knight, but the title
escapes me. He was currently working as a plumber, as his title had
no land or offices associated with it. 

There may be some question as to whether this plumber was social
level B+ in anything other than name. I could imagine him being a local
noble in Traveller, crashing some bigwig's party on the technicality of
his inherited title. The wealthy socialites wouldn't quite know what to
do with him - they've been scrabbling after noble titles to legitimize their
power and position, here's a guy who has what they claim to respect
(even if he has it in name only). Get enough people to let you act
social level B+, you effectively become social level B+.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:18:41 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: (OT) Crusade Cancellation--More Information

Greetings:

What can I say? Hollyweird is fitting to it's alter-name!

Summary, from what I've heard: TNT wanted changes to the show. JMS did not
agree with them. Negotiations ensued, and looked like progress was being made.
TNT now says they'll air the 13 episodes filmed, and who knows? Maybe SF
channel will pick it up or one of the other cable networks. Maybe Warner's own
network (?). 

On the plus side, the B5 page that I refer to the most
(http://www.midwinter.com/) has a note that the B5 episodes should (finally!)
make it onto DVD (I've not bought the VHS tapes figuring that I'd just re-buy
them on DVD if I did!). See that web-page cited for that news, news on Crusade
and more--for example, in the "making of" section there's an excellent sub-
page on the various classical names used in Earthforce ships. Amazing what a
good resource the web can be at times!

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

- --begin paste--

NORTH HOLLYWOOD, Calif.--(ENTERTAINMENT WIRE)--March 2, 1999-- Netter 
Digital Entertainment Inc. (Nasdaq:NETT - news) Tuesday announced that 
``Crusade,'' a new television series based on the ``Babylon 5'' 
franchise produced by the company for Warner Bros., has been scheduled 
to begin airing nationally on TNT on June 9, 1999. 

Douglas Netter, chairman and chief executive officer of Netter Digital 
Entertainment, said that production of the first 13 episodes of 
``Crusade'' is nearly complete. He added that TNT has elected not to 
purchase additional ``Crusade'' episodes at the present time. 

``While we expect to win production contracts for other television and 
motion picture projects soon, and hope that 'Crusade' ultimately will go 
back into production, this decision by TNT will affect our financial 
results unfavorably during the current quarter,'' Netter said. 

- --end paste--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #371
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 372



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

New GURPS Traveller Ships 1.04.00
RE: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
re: Fleet Ops... & GT Nightmares
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: laser fire through clouds
Re: Jump Duration
re: Fleet Ops
Re: IgNoble etiquette
Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply
Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote
re: Fleet Ops
re: Fleet Ops
re: Fleet Ops
Re: Stuff [lots of snippage]
Re: How do I subscribe to the xboat list?
Re: (OT) Crusade Cancellation--More Information
re: Fleet Ops

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:31:02 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: New GURPS Traveller Ships 1.04.00

Changes made:

Customized Weapons capabilities
Shortened printout
Enhanced Repository
Repository Import
Other little tweaks

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

Your old ship files SHOULD still work.  I would verify the weapon 
configurations to be sure, though.

Note:  If you use a Repository module in place of a standard GT 
module and then remove or change the Repository Module, things 
will get interesting with your ship design.  Be careful what you delete.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:43:01 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

Denis Allain writes:
<snipped>
"I thought about multiplying the diameter of the planet by 
10, and then by 100... but when I look at the transit times 
(travel time)  charts in the Imperial Encyclopedia, it 
dosen't seem to jive. Anybody has any idea??? Thanks in 
advance"

	I like to take into account the local gravity well,
	accelerating half way and 'decelerating' half way,
	and I adjust the distances based on the density of
	the planet or star (IIRC I reduce the critical
	diameters to 1/3 for gas giants and stars).

Frank Pitt writes:
"The only way for jump to work as advertised is for it 
to "automagically" match your velocity with that of the 
target system on exit from J-space, in which case your 
velocity on entry to jump is completely irrelevant."

	IMTU a jump is 'anchored' to real space by large 
	masses, such that your velocity relative to nearby
	masses when you enter jump will be your velocity 
	relative to nearby masses when you re-enter real
	space. ("No ensign, I will not bore you with the
	complex details of gravetic flux and 
	Neo-Einsteinian physics that are responsible for 
	this phenomenon.")

Peez (AKA Ian)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:59:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles

Holger Kadlez writes:
> IMTU thrusters work the same way as a gondola in venice:
> The gondolier pushes with his stick against the bottom thus using the
> rest of the planet as reaction mass. As this effect upon earth might be
> to small to be measured, this method might be described as being
> reaction less.

The problem with this is that drives of this sort have a well-defined energy
requirement, which can be quite high (though still lower than for a reaction
engine for the most part) -- it is equal to <thrust in newtons> * <velocity
relative to object being pushed against> watts.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:15:44 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops... & GT Nightmares

At 11:14 AM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
>        When you cut the level of abstraction down as you describe, the Bad
>Guys jump immediately to the ISZ and then straight to the SDZ around the
>planet.  Great.  What game mechanic is in place that says they have to
>actually attack the defending fleet?  IE:  Once they are within 50000km of
>the world, what rules mechanic is in place to say that they have to defeat
>the defense fleet before bombing the world?  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>At the level of abstraction I'm using, all defenders in the main world SDZ
>would be in one fleet - including the Main World and any significant
>satellites. If the main world has no defenses or weapons it would start
>in the reserve, and couldn't be attacked until the defender ran out of 
>functional fleet. Of course, the main world couldn't choose engagement
>ranges or break off - engagement would start at long range, then move
>to short range. Considering that you can jump to 100 diameters, your
>defense fleet won't have much time to stop them anyway.
>
>When I've completed the first draft of Fleet Tac I'll have to pay careful
>attention to defense of worlds - images of an enemy bomber squadron
>slipping past your destroyers as they fight for their lives against an
>enemy light cruiser squadron.

        <sniff><sniff>  I smell fighters becoming useful again.....
        <sniff><sniff>  I smell a great scenario to inflict on my PC's.....
<WEG>

        World defense almost has to be the building block for this level of
a system...  after all, in most cases if this is not to be "Jutland In
Space" where the objective was to smash the oppositions line of battle
Because Its The Thing To Do, then the world is the target.

>Michel again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>        Logically, the defenders would engage the incoming warships from the
>edge of the SDZ, to allow as early an engagement as possible.  However, with
>space being loosly defined as "bigger than really, really big", and
>engagements really only taking place by mutal consent, how does your concept
>handled "end runs" instead of "break throughs"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Some of that will be covered by pursuit and interception rules that I'm
>working on (based on Maneuver instead of Agility for operational scale
>purposes). Space is big, and it's hard to be sneaky, so end runs will
>be hard to pull off if the defender doesn't have as far to go as you do.
>

        I would suggest using (Maneuver + Agility)/2 + (Ship or Fleet
Tactics) as a DM to an opposed roll.

>Michel again:
>>What happens to an HG/TCS game when you have to defend two or three
>>gas giants as well as your main world? I think it will make HG strategic
>>games less bloody, as a careful enemy will be able to refuel and retreat
>>when hard pressed - or he'll be able to defeat your defense fleet piecemeal
>>as you try and defend all the refueling sources.
>
>        What would happen is rather much like current naval doctrine of
>"SAG"'s (Surface Action Groups).  You spread your defenses out over the area
>by priority...  really, who *cares* if he refuels?  Sure, its a great
>opprtunity to bushwhack at cruiser with an SDB, but otherwise, what
>difference does it make?  Since the only thing that can hurt a cruiser+
>sized vessel is a spinal mount, and they pile so many hits on in one shot,
>not to mention criticals, a full fuel tank can become an empty tank in one
>soild hit anyway.  If he tries to escape by jumping out, ok, he can't use
>any energy-consuming weapons and you get to pound on him unanswered.  This
>is hardly a bad thing.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>One thing that can hurt a cruiser is an SDB that jumps it at the worst
>possible moment during gas giant refueling ops. No shields, no agility,
>no effective computer advantage, most weapons useless...owie.

        Where in HG does it actually say this?  I don't recall ever having
read this.  Many implications of this sort of condtion, but I don't remember
anywhere explicit.

>If your objective is to defend a main world, giving the enemy the ability
>to retreat can save your life. If your job is to keep his Vengeance Fleet
>from refueling at your frontier world so he can jump deeper into your
>empire for commerce raiding, your defense focus changes. If your
>objective is to pin down and destroy his fleet rather than drive it off, 
>interference with refueling becomes critical.

        Ok, that makes sense.  However, in the Vengeance Fleet scenario,
that frontier world isn't going to have anything capable of slowing down a
battle group anyway.  My understanding of IN doctrine has been to pile the
defenses around the high-pop, high-tech worlds and strike back from there.


>Michel again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
><snip>
>
>        For system interdiction, then perhaps the battle for the gas giant
>will become the meat grinder and not the main world.  Most major systems
>will be able to survive just fine for considerable time with interstellar
>trade interdicted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Eventually I'd like to put together some good rules for planetary defenses.
>Some way to make seiges possible - the attacking fleet doesn't dare send
>it's capital ships within 10D of that well-defended main world, so they
>orbit at 70D and whack any incoming or outgoing vessels. The defense
>fleet hangs out at 10D or less, within range of the planetary meson
>emplacements, ready to intercept any cocky enemy commando
>raids. What breaks the stalemate?

        Well, in medieval seige warfare, the siege usually ended when either
reienforcements arrived and attacked the attackers, or when betrayal opened
the backdoor and let the attackers in.  Otherwise, they were long, boring,
messy affairs.  Once in a while, the attackers would wind up stricken with
diesease and would use a trebuchet to hurl the dead bodies over the wall in
a crude attempt at biological warfare on the defenders.

        As far as 70D, thank God (Allah -> Zeus, inclusive, take your pick)
that this isn't GT or some jerk like me would build a dozen meson sites with
30-mile tunnels that would convert something out at the asteroid belt to a
plasma cloud.  =)

        As far as CT is concerned, this is where Big Assed Missiles (BAM)
might be of concern...  the main world can turn over part of its industrial
production towards building MSTO thermonuclear missiles to "shell" the
attackers with and force them further away from the 70D limit....

        The planetary fleet, I would guess, would spend a lot of its time
doing hit-and-runs against the Enemy battle fleet.  Kill them one ship at a
time...  after all, the main world can repair & replace..  the Enemy cannot.

        So, to break the "siege", the attackers have to start hurling
asteroids until the mainworld decides that the ante is to high and folds.
Or, the defenders have to get re-enforced by an out-system strike fleet, at
which point the attackers are sandwiched between planet-based monster
weapons an a very grumpy strike fleet.  Or, the defenders have to have paid
for those meson sites' targeting systems to go down at a crucial moment.

>Thanks for the input Michel.
>
>Walt Smith
>

        My pleasure, Walt.  Great ideas, BTW...  I look forward to seeing
the finished product.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:07:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

Douglas Glatz writes:
> Heyo!
> 
> I just had bad thoughts...would the gearheads and RW physicists on the list
> please instruct me?
> 
> What is the byproduct of a fusion reaction?  Helium?  How is it removed
> from RW reactors?  How will it be removed when a self-sustaining reaction
> is started?  What exactly is plasma?

The byproduct depends on the type of fusion reaction being caused.  For
hydrogen fusion, it is typically helium and free neutrons.  The quantity of
helium is quite low, and is probably removed by the power generation process;
if you want a closed system, a typical plant can probably store ten years of
helium byproducts without significant effort.  The free neutrons are also
ideally absorbed by the power generation systems, though they have a bad habit
of going off and inducing radiation in the structure of the reactor.  There
isn't such a thing as a 'real world fusion reactor', but experimental designs
probably use a pump to clean the chamber.  Plasma is a state where a
significant number of the molecules in a gas have their outer electrons
stripped off; the result is electrically conductive and opaque.  It naturally
happens at high temperatures.
> 
> How would the exhaust of a fusion reactor be removed from a starship
> reactor, or from the starship itself, or would the reactor just be vented
> to vacuum?

Depends on the design.  It isn't a big problem however you do it, though, since
there isn't very much of it.  It's probably removed during annual maintenance.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:14:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: laser fire through clouds

Juliean Galak writes:
> At 04:26 PM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Some GURPS Gearhead wanna tell what GV2 lasers are capable of?  Anything
> >for clouds in there?

There are, but I don't recall offhand exactly what they are -- I think it's
something like DR 10 per hex; X-ray lasers aren't affected (and atmospheric
range is 1/100 of space range).  Gurps Vehicles lasers are known to have
unrealistic performance, however.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:33:55 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Duration

> What I understood from this is that the variance is a physical/astrometric
> factor that is present in a "region" at the time. A fleet coordinating a
> jump using the same or near same tech level jump system would have the
> same astrometric variables affecting them.

Since Jump is definitely in the Fiction part of this Science Fiction game
<g>, I guess any reasonable explanation will work.  It's just not something
that had crossed my mind before...(and an evil GM could easily make this a
nightmare for some unlucky PC's if he decides to roll for each ship.)

> The problem would be co-ordinating multiple fleets along multiple paths
> trying to arrive at an objective at the same time. The variances in jump
> time over multiple jumps would end up resulting in some interesting
> problems, as one fleet would show up perhaps a couple days after the first
> group.

Agreed.  I think the timing element would be very critical.  In most games
I've seen that conduct strategic movement, you have to plot out several
turns in advance, and if you haven't allowed for jump variances, you could
very easily 'lose a fleet in the shuffle.'  <g>


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:39:08 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>One thing that can hurt a cruiser is an SDB that jumps it at the worst
>possible moment during gas giant refueling ops. No shields, no agility,
>no effective computer advantage, most weapons useless...owie.

        Where in HG does it actually say this?  I don't recall ever having
read this.  Many implications of this sort of condtion, but I don't remember
anywhere explicit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oops, getting ahead of myself - call that a preview of the rules idea that
started this, my variant for HG combat inside a gas giant. Most of the
inspiration comes from the account of an AHL getting it's back broken
by enemy SDB's during a refueling run.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:38:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: IgNoble etiquette

At 06:14 PM 3/30/99 +0200, you wrote:

(Much excellent work snipped and saved)

>At a brilliant gala ball. An unshaven slob of a marine in a dirty uniform
>is stuffing his face with small dainty bits of food piled high on a plate
>in his hand. A stereotypical dowager duchess in a gorgeous ball gown is
>looking at him through her lorngette. Between them stands a diplomat type
>in coat and tails (or, since this is science fiction, perhaps he is wearing
>a formal jump suit (a jump suit with dress clothes printed on) and
>introduces them to each other. Text: "Your Grace, may I present to you
>Arnold, Baron Travesty. His Lordship is a private of marines on the
>_Luuru_."

IMTU, all marines start as E-1s.. there is no Academy.  The Duke of Lunion
served as a one-term Marine, and is still proud of his Corporal stripes.

What would be far more interesting, is for the Private (an Armsman/3 IMTU)
to be dressed in mufti, and being introduced to an Admiral of the fleet,
who fawns over the noble..  "And, my Lord, what has been occupying your
days recently?"  "I spent most of the weekend scrubbing your latrine,
Admiral. I'm a Marine enlisted man on your flag ship.."
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:53:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply

At 06:06 PM 3/29/99 EST, you wrote:
>Hi-
>   Here's my shameless plug, per request.  The Medieval Starship will open 
>in O'Fallon, Illinois (about 20m east of St. Louis)

20 METERS east of St. Louis?!?  Wow, that's precision!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric flightless
 winged squirrel, coming through.."
                -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:46:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote

About two years ago, my wife and I were at fry's Electronics and saw a demo
of a galvanic computer controller.  You put your finger in a slot, and
played a skiing game.  Just by thinking "right" or "left" you controlled
the skier's descent.  I found that jerking my head slightly in the desired
direction amplified the effect.

On the other hand, the original F-16 had a control stick that was immobile.
 Since the plane is a fly-by-wire design, there is no reason to physically
move the stick.  But pilots would wildly overcompensate during maneuvers,
so a small degree of completely useless give was built into the control
stick.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:03:26 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 01:39 PM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>One thing that can hurt a cruiser is an SDB that jumps it at the worst
>>possible moment during gas giant refueling ops. No shields, no agility,
>>no effective computer advantage, most weapons useless...owie.
>
>        Where in HG does it actually say this?  I don't recall ever having
>read this.  Many implications of this sort of condtion, but I don't remember
>anywhere explicit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Oops, getting ahead of myself - call that a preview of the rules idea that
>started this, my variant for HG combat inside a gas giant. Most of the
>inspiration comes from the account of an AHL getting it's back broken
>by enemy SDB's during a refueling run.
>
>Walt Smith
>

        So, now here is the Cr64,000 question:
        If an AHL can't conduct combat in a gas giant, why should an SDB be
able to?

        If its just the issue about having to stick to a certain course for
refueling, would not the wise fleet admiral simply insist on his escorts
riding shotgun on the group of ships refueling...  the SDB then has to pick
a fight with a couple of combat-ready escorts to get a shot at the vessels
refueling (escorts in LOB, refueling vessels in reserve).

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:03:59 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hello,
>In a movement phase, any ship can move from an SDZ to the Inner System.
>Ships in the Inner System must move to either an SDZ or to the Outer
>System, while ships in the Outer System are out of the fight until the
>next TCS turn.

  Wouldn't it be simpler (and possibly more accurate, at least to current
TCS rules) to allow one TCS turn transit from Outer to an SDZ or SDZ to
Outer? BTW, are all SDZ's required to be de facto Inner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The alternating movement and combat phases in Fleet Ops all take place
during the combat phase of a single TCS turn. Where TCS makes it one big
battle, Fleet Ops breaks it up into skirmishes. You repeat Fleet Ops
movement/combat phases until the situation is decided, just like you
repeat HG combat rounds until the situation is decided.

Moving to the Outer System represents breaking off for deep space,
the same effect gained in HG/TCS by breaking off by acceleration.

The Inner System location for ships is an abstraction for movement
purposes. It represents being in space and going somewhere, rather
than getting far, far away from everything and hiding (the Outer System).
Thus all SDZ's are de facto "Inner" in that the Outer System is outside
everything in the system important enough to fight over.

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip>
  I:E had outsystem-Jump/deep space-Sol/Luna/near orbit and various Terran
surface boxes. Imperium had multiple system boxes for multiple worlds around
the same star (and assumed safe GG refuelling?). 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Imperium assumed safe GG refueling in friendly or unopposed systems,
even if non-military enemy ships were there - you could refuel and jump
again in zero time as far as the game scale was concerned. You had to
stop in a system with any enemy warships, though you could leave
during the next movement phase.

The multiple system boxes in Imperium didn't represent multiple worlds
around the same star, they represented binary star systems with 
a main world around each (such as Alpha Centauri). The game effect
was the same as if the planets had been around the same star - except,
perhaps, that two planets around the same star might be able to shoot
planet-mounted weapons at each other.

Michal Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
       World defense almost has to be the building block for this level of
a system...  after all, in most cases if this is not to be "Jutland In
Space" where the objective was to smash the oppositions line of battle
Because Its The Thing To Do, then the world is the target.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If a planet, base, or other effectively immobile target is completely
undefendable from attacks by starships, then all fleet combats may
be "Jutland in Space" - you decide the issue ship to ship, no seiges
are truly possible. That may be what HG is getting at. Accounts of
the 5th Frontier War seem to indicate that seiges were pretty common,
so a planet must be able to defend itself somehow. Now all we need
are rules.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:20:04 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Michel Vaillencourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        So, now here is the Cr64,000 question:
        If an AHL can't conduct combat in a gas giant, why should an SDB be
able to?

        If its just the issue about having to stick to a certain course for
refueling, would not the wise fleet admiral simply insist on his escorts
riding shotgun on the group of ships refueling...  the SDB then has to pick
a fight with a couple of combat-ready escorts to get a shot at the vessels
refueling (escorts in LOB, refueling vessels in reserve).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
He'll need escorts designed for fighting in a GG, which any wise fleet
admiral will have. There are things that are quite useful in a deep-space
fleet engagement (spinal mounts, missiles, rotating turrets) that you just 
can't use while passing through atmosphere at hypersonic speeds.
SDB's in a gas giant atmosphere will stow missiles, lock turrets
forward and fly like a fighter - it only has to worry about the few of your
ships that can do that as well.

There are also issues with maintaining formation (close enough to
intercept that incoming flight of SDB's, far enough away so the 
turbulence of that friendly AHL doesn't toss your little escort around).
Strangely enough, the SDB's will have similar issues - close enough
formation that the flight of SDB's can work together, far enough apart
that they won't bonk each other. In space, formation flying is all
physics and can be very precise - in the weather patterns of a gas giant,
your ship might move tens (or hundreds) of meters thataway over the
next few seconds.

My rules will allow for the difference between ships that are scooping
fuel and ships that aren't, but the major effects of a gas giant will be to
remove just about every advantage a big ship has over a little one.
This will make little SDB's a major threat in the depths of a gas giant.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:16:31 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stuff [lots of snippage]

In a message dated 3/29/99 8:52:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wombat@premier.net writes:

<< With vehicles, it's "You can have
 vehicles that are fast, well-armed, and well-protected.  Pick two." >>

or pick all three and have less vehicles... (costs more...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:16:18 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: How do I subscribe to the xboat list?

Sorry the xboat list no longer exists.

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 8:06 AM
Subject: How do I subscribe to the xboat list?


>
>How do I subscribe to the xboat list?  I have tried the method suggested in
>the FAQ but the auto responder gives me the error the xboat does not exist.
>I sent the command for the list of lists and xboat or xtml is not on the
>list.  Is there a different list server for the xboat list?  If so what is
>the subscribe email address?
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:39:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: (OT) Crusade Cancellation--More Information

On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 Diespamer@aol.com wrote:

> Greetings:
> 
> What can I say? Hollyweird is fitting to it's alter-name!
> 
> Summary, from what I've heard: TNT wanted changes to the show. JMS did not
> agree with them. Negotiations ensued, and looked like progress was being made.
> TNT now says they'll air the 13 episodes filmed, and who knows? Maybe SF
> channel will pick it up or one of the other cable networks. Maybe Warner's own
> network (?). 

It will not be on the WB, already saw somewhere on a reliable web site
that JMS will not take the show to them (which, IMHO, makes no sense due
to the fact that the WB NEEDS shows like Crusader to survive and
Babylonian Prodictions INC already has a distribution contract with
them.).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:40:32 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 02:20 PM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillencourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>        So, now here is the Cr64,000 question:
>        If an AHL can't conduct combat in a gas giant, why should an SDB be
>able to?
>
>        If its just the issue about having to stick to a certain course for
>refueling, would not the wise fleet admiral simply insist on his escorts
>riding shotgun on the group of ships refueling...  the SDB then has to pick
>a fight with a couple of combat-ready escorts to get a shot at the vessels
>refueling (escorts in LOB, refueling vessels in reserve).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>He'll need escorts designed for fighting in a GG, which any wise fleet
>admiral will have. There are things that are quite useful in a deep-space
>fleet engagement (spinal mounts, missiles, rotating turrets) that you just 
>can't use while passing through atmosphere at hypersonic speeds.

        Ok, I can accept that.

>SDB's in a gas giant atmosphere will stow missiles, lock turrets
>forward and fly like a fighter - it only has to worry about the few of your
>ships that can do that as well.

        So, really, what you get into is fighters armed with nukes as
BARCAP, backed by a missile-bay packing destroyer.

>There are also issues with maintaining formation (close enough to
>intercept that incoming flight of SDB's, far enough away so the 
>turbulence of that friendly AHL doesn't toss your little escort around).
>Strangely enough, the SDB's will have similar issues - close enough
>formation that the flight of SDB's can work together, far enough apart
>that they won't bonk each other. In space, formation flying is all
>physics and can be very precise - in the weather patterns of a gas giant,
>your ship might move tens (or hundreds) of meters thataway over the
>next few seconds.

        Hmmm.....  perhaps a piloting roll required per ship in the
formation to avoid taking 1d-1 surface hits.

>My rules will allow for the difference between ships that are scooping
>fuel and ships that aren't, but the major effects of a gas giant will be to
>remove just about every advantage a big ship has over a little one.
>This will make little SDB's a major threat in the depths of a gas giant.
>
>Walt Smith
>

        Ok, but what about armor?  USP19 is USP19, and an SDB isn't going to
crack it without a spinal mount that the AHL isn't allowed to use in the GG....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #372
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 373



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
re: Fleet Ops
Re: Fusion exhaust...
re: Fleet Ops
re: Fleet Ops
re: Fleet Ops
FG Effects(was Ships Locker on Scout Ships)
Re: Fusion exhaust...
re: Fleet Ops
New Space Combat System
Re: GT/TML Ship request
Subject: re: Fleet Ops
Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply
Jump Duration and Fleet Tactics
re: Fleet Ops
Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)
Re: Jump Duration and Fleet Tactics
re: Fleet Ops

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:20:02 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

In a message dated 3/29/99 10:54:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wmacdude@concentric.net writes:

<<  Here's one, What's the hold on Poker Pai Gow? >>

I don't play it, so I don't know odds off hand. I'll try and find out for you.
BTW; don't you live in Reno. Don't they have that up there?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:48:25 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
     Ok, but what about armor?  USP19 is USP19, and an SDB isn't going to
crack it without a spinal mount that the AHL isn't allowed to use in the GG....
>>>>>>>>>>>
USP 19? I'm using HG 2nd edition, the highest armor you'll see on a
ship inside a GG atmosphere is <tech level>. Granted, getting through
armor factor 12 or so is a pain, even with pulse lasers.

I'm working on it. I want a mechanic that isn't a specific, special rule
for fights in gas giants - a game mechanic rather than a one-situation
chrome patch.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:51:38 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

> Douglas Glatz writes:
>
> The byproduct depends on the type of fusion reaction being caused.  For
> hydrogen fusion, it is typically helium and free neutrons.  The quantity
of
> helium is quite low, and is probably removed by the power generation
process;
> if you want a closed system, a typical plant can probably store ten years
of

Except we are talking about pumping in *tons* of Hydrogen - shouldn't the
output, regardless of the actual element, be equal to the input?

> helium byproducts without significant effort.  The free neutrons are also
> ideally absorbed by the power generation systems, though they have a bad
habit
> of going off and inducing radiation in the structure of the reactor.
There
> isn't such a thing as a 'real world fusion reactor', but experimental
designs

[blush] I am aware that we haven't *quite* reached the fusion era...I was
trying to refer to the test reactors and was *very* unclear about it.

> probably use a pump to clean the chamber.  Plasma is a state where a
> significant number of the molecules in a gas have their outer electrons
> stripped off; the result is electrically conductive and opaque.  It
naturally
> happens at high temperatures.
> >
> > How would the exhaust of a fusion reactor be removed from a starship
> > reactor, or from the starship itself, or would the reactor just be
vented
> > to vacuum?
>
> Depends on the design.  It isn't a big problem however you do it, though,
since
> there isn't very much of it.  It's probably removed during annual
maintenance.
>

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:09:55 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 02:48 PM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>     Ok, but what about armor?  USP19 is USP19, and an SDB isn't going to
>crack it without a spinal mount that the AHL isn't allowed to use in the GG....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>USP 19? I'm using HG 2nd edition, the highest armor you'll see on a
>ship inside a GG atmosphere is <tech level>. Granted, getting through
>armor factor 12 or so is a pain, even with pulse lasers.

        Duh!  Sorry...  My head was one step advanced on me...  USP 13 (Avg
Stellar TL) + 6 since wpn USP < 10 = +19 to damge roll....

>I'm working on it. I want a mechanic that isn't a specific, special rule
>for fights in gas giants - a game mechanic rather than a one-situation
>chrome patch.
>
>Walt Smith
>

        The equalizer here is that if you say no turrets, no screens, no
agility then I can actually cut my SBD's and anti-SDB's to fighters packing
nukes.  BB now Sitting Duck for an SD fighter squadron....  

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:17:26 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>

        The equalizer here is that if you say no turrets, no screens, no
agility then I can actually cut my SBD's and anti-SDB's to fighters packing
nukes.  BB now Sitting Duck for an SD fighter squadron....  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'd been considering no *missiles* as well - or would there be no problem
getting a space missile working in a GG atmosphere?

If missiles still work, that would be a reason for that BB to have that
many dozen missile bays. <weg>

A JTAS article talked about carrying missiles optimized for use underwater
(torpedoes). Would there also be missiles optimized for use in a GG
atmosphere? If so, that would be another factor encouraging dedicated
SDB's. It might also encourage dedicated escorts optimized for
protecting refueling ops.

Just to make things scary - what if conditions inside a GG degrade
sensors so much that you can still see a cruiser-size target, but can't
see a missile-size target? Point defense capability vanishes - imagine
taking an *impact* hit on your thruster plates while near the bottom of a
fuel scooping run...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:43:35 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 03:17 PM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>        The equalizer here is that if you say no turrets, no screens, no
>agility then I can actually cut my SBD's and anti-SDB's to fighters packing
>nukes.  BB now Sitting Duck for an SD fighter squadron....  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'd been considering no *missiles* as well - or would there be no problem
>getting a space missile working in a GG atmosphere?

        C'mon, Walt, you are rapidly arriving at a situation where the only
thing they can do is look at each other menacingly through the
port-holes....  =)
        Lasers should not...  missiles should.  However, at those ranges,
they will practically be direct-fire weapons.

>If missiles still work, that would be a reason for that BB to have that
>many dozen missile bays. <weg>

        You betcha.

>A JTAS article talked about carrying missiles optimized for use underwater
>(torpedoes). Would there also be missiles optimized for use in a GG
>atmosphere? If so, that would be another factor encouraging dedicated
>SDB's. It might also encourage dedicated escorts optimized for
>protecting refueling ops.

        If it is an issue, then yes, of course they would.  Otherwise, you
are naught more than spam and shrapnel once the ship *with* them gets done
with you.

>Just to make things scary - what if conditions inside a GG degrade
>sensors so much that you can still see a cruiser-size target, but can't
>see a missile-size target? Point defense capability vanishes - imagine
>taking an *impact* hit on your thruster plates while near the bottom of a
>fuel scooping run...

        Sequence on the evil commandship bridge from movie "The Last
Starfighter":

        "We're trapped in the gravity well of that small moon!  Now what do
we do?"
        "We die."

>Walt Smith
>

        Even if you can see it coming, per another thread about lasers in
atmospheres, you certainly aren't going to be able to do anything about
them....  your lasers will never punch through that soup.  Enter the torpedo
boat.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:49:03 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: FG Effects(was Ships Locker on Scout Ships)

Heh heh,
I'll have to tell you about the Hell Gun series I designed sometime Dom.
You are on the money.
No protection, and firing the weapons leaves you half fried...
:)
Roger



>That, and the radiation burns, heat damage and temporary blindness that
>results from firing a plasma weapon without adequate protection.
>
>Dom
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:52:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

Douglas Glatz writes:
> 
> Except we are talking about pumping in *tons* of Hydrogen - shouldn't the
> output, regardless of the actual element, be equal to the input?

Assuming you believe that jump drives actually fuse the hydrogen, sure.  Since
a ton of hydrogen, fused, is equivalent to a gigaton nuclear weapon, and with a
0.1% inefficiency (wildly optimistic) will instantly vaporize the ship, some of
us don't believe that jump fuel is fused (or if it is fused, it isn't fused in
the reactor, but by some esoteric jump-space phenomenon).  For the most part,
fusion plants in Traveller should mostly output raw hydrogen, since they use
orders of magnitude more fuel than can possibly be accounted for by their power
output.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:05:28 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 04:09 PM 3/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 02:48 PM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>     Ok, but what about armor?  USP19 is USP19, and an SDB isn't going to
>>crack it without a spinal mount that the AHL isn't allowed to use in the
GG....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>USP 19? I'm using HG 2nd edition, the highest armor you'll see on a
>>ship inside a GG atmosphere is <tech level>. Granted, getting through
>>armor factor 12 or so is a pain, even with pulse lasers.
>
>        Duh!  Sorry...  My head was one step advanced on me...  USP 13 (Avg
>Stellar TL) + 6 since wpn USP < 10 = +19 to damge roll....
>
>>I'm working on it. I want a mechanic that isn't a specific, special rule
>>for fights in gas giants - a game mechanic rather than a one-situation
>>chrome patch.
>>
>>Walt Smith
>>
>
>        The equalizer here is that if you say no turrets, no screens, no
>agility then I can actually cut my SBD's and anti-SDB's to fighters packing
>nukes.  BB now Sitting Duck for an SD fighter squadron....  
>

Time to toss in my .02crs here.

Ok, what is a gas giant?

A big ball of atmosphere that's prone to big mother storms!

Atmosphere with serious attitude!

Ok, so mayby skimming is like storm riding a class 5 hurricane and then
some.  The traveller equivilent of surfing a Tidle wave or white water
rafting.  Any ship with lest than a stream lined hull is in for a beating
(AHL was parital streamlined emergence refueling only).

When you go gas diving you have to 'lock everything down' to keep it
attached.  So turrets get locked into position, bays closed, exec.  You
would NOT want to fire a spinal in that pea soup.  All the energy gets
dumped into the atmosphere right there in front of you for you to fly
through UNLESS you have a meson gun.

Also missle life span is likely to be short and guidence questionable.

So let look at AHL with these assumptions.

She's lost her fuel shuttles and is alone.  She dives for the fuel to keep
running in 'locked down' mode (All turrets pointed in one direction,
probablly aft), bays closed, ect.  In come the SDB also locked down but much
smaller and more manuverable because they are streamlined.  They past
forward and above the AHL so their back facing turrets bear and cut loose.
No defensive fire is posible so the AHL has to eat the missles.  The SDBs
are close enough that guidence is not a problem and the AHL can not return
fire in locked down mode with the SDB out of arc.  It is already struggling
with it's limited streamlining.  She tries to pull out and run with the fuel
she has but with the gapping holes from the missles, the pressure, and
winds, the gas giant finishes what the SDBs started which was their plan.

New rule, lock down for gas giant skimming.  Turrets secured pointing back,
bays closed, locks sealed, passengers and crew straped in, breakable
secured, tray tables in the up right possion...

Could also be that most fighters are to fragile to survive a skim pass.
Perhaps all that armor on the SDB is there for more than one reason.  Could
also be the fighters were not designed to withstand high atmospheric
pressures the the SDB can.  Or are so light they get blow arrond to much.

As for why she did not have escorts with her in the skim...she left them
behind previously.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:16:34 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: New Space Combat System

Since this topic seems to be in the air, I'll announce that I have a
rough cut at a space combat system for MTU. It's basically a mutant
cross between Mayday and High Guard w/ a touch of MT thrown in. The
basic idea is something fast and fairly well abstracted, but yet still
using a map sheet and counters. 

I feel the document is too long to post to the list, but I'd appreciate
it if anyone wanted to take a look and comment on the draft - heck even
play test it. I'm having "fun" with my web site at the moment, so if you
would like to look at it email me. It's currently in Word 95 and RTF
formats, but I can save it out in just about any format.

Thanks,

William
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:20:05 +1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GT/TML Ship request

Here goes (still doesn't have a black globe, but thats all it's missing!
- -------8<--------------------

1200ton Kinunir class Colonial Cruiser, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 1 x Helm, 1 x Navigation, 7 x Commo/Sensor,
 1 x Screens, 2 x Engineering, 12 x Gunnery, 2 x Medical,
 1 x Computer, 35 x Marines, 1 x Flight
 Total Crew = 64

Specifications:
 1200ton Very Good Streamlined Hull, Sealed, Heavy
 Compartmentalisation, Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default)
 Hull Materials, Advanced Metal Armor, DR 2000, PD 4, +10 size
 mod, 687.1165 MCr, 128049 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Radical Stealth,
 Radical Emissions Cloaking, 1 Hardened Command Bridge, 1
 Engineering, 3 Utility, 165 Maneuver, 60 Powered Jump, 480 Jump
 Fuel (120 for Jump 1), 6 Fuel Processor (10 hrs to process), 31
 Staterooms (31 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 5 Low
 Berth (20 capacity, 0 Low Passage), 8 Bunk Room (128 capacity), 1
 Sickbay, 2 Morgue (Room for 40 Battledress), 2 Drop Capsule
 Launcher (4 launchers), 3 Drop Capsule Rack (48 capsule capacity)
 4 Nuclear Damper (15 miles), 15 Cargo, 1 Power Plant (40 MW
 output, 16 MW excess), 1 TL 12 PESA scan 47 (2.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1
 TL 12 Radscanner scan 42 (1.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW Suite (DJ 16,
 AJ 16, 1 BE) (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 4 Brig(s), 1 Complete
 Workshop(s), 1 x 40 tons capacity Vehicle Bay, 12 turret(s) - 8
 Triple 405Mj X-Ray Laser Turrets, 2 Triple Missile Turrets,
 2 PAW-1 Turrets (360MJ, 24 MW)

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 3963.08 tons, LMass 4158.08 tons (Estimated carried
 mass = 120 tons), EMass 3339.08 tons (less fuel), LMass 3534.08
 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 4865 mph (7828 km/h), Acceleration -
 4.16G Empty, 3.97G Loaded, 4.94G Empty (less Fuel), 4.67G Loaded
 (less Fuel)

Weapon Stats:
 PAW-1 Turret, 360MJ : 2500 (4023 km) 1/2 range,
    6300 (10137 km) max range, 6d x 300 damage


Notes:

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 25.34 tons, 2.5 spaces, 40.2339 MCr
 Scan 47 in space, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 18.75 tons, 1.5 spaces, 7.525 MCr
 Scan 42 , 150000 miles (241350 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr

 Design Stats for Complete Workshop:
 3 spaces, 15 tons, 0.06 MCr


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:23:42 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Michel Vaillancourt posted:
>
>        Ok, but what about armor?  USP19 is USP19, and an SDB isn't going
to
>crack it without a spinal mount that the AHL isn't allowed to use in the
GG....

There's no reason why meson guns can't be used through
a gas giant's atmosphere unless you rule sensors of any
kind can't operate within a gas giant's atmosphere.

Assuming you're using a design system which allows
it, build some stealthed vehicles with a completely
enclosed meson gun mount rated at as high a power
output as you can manage and with a very short range
(say, 500 miles). They need just enough of a maneuver
drive to move slowly against the atmospheric currents,
if desired.

Dump a few in a gas giant to float around on
their own CG drives and wait for a fleet to
show up. Make 'em robotic in nature and you
have meson gun mines. Put them in the relatively
calm areas of the gas giant's atmosphere, forcing
hostile ships to skim through nasty atmospherics,
and let nature take its course.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:12:23 EST
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Request for shameless plug/ Reply

In a message dated 3/30/99 1:06:44 PM Central Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:
<< >in O'Fallon, Illinois (about 20m east of St. Louis)
20 METERS east of St. Louis?!?  Wow, that's precision! >>

Well, it all depends on the definition of "about". Let me pull my new Clinton
Uncensored Dictionary.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:28:01 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Jump Duration and Fleet Tactics

> From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>

> I hadn't thought of the effect that jump duration would have on fleet
> actions.

This subject has been kicked around a few times on the list; the rules
don't address fleet jump duration problems expressly.  We do know that
"[j]ump takes 168 hours ([plus or minus] 10%) to complete."  Marc W.
Miller, "Jumpspace," 24 JTAS 34, 34.  

Further, "One of the enefits of the jump drive is controllability; jump
is predictable.  When known levels of energy are expended, and when
certain other parameters are known with precision, jump drive is
accurate to less than one part per ten billion.  Over a jump distance of
one parsec, the arrival point of a ship can be predicted to within
perhpas 3,000 kilometers (on larger jumps, the potential error is
proportionally larger)."  Id. at 34-35.  

Finally, "[t[he duration of a jump is fixed at the instant that jump
begins, and depends on the specific jump space entered, the energy input
into the system, and on other factors.  In most cases, jump will last a
week."  Id. at 36.

From the foregoing -- especially the fact that jump duration "is fixed
at the instant that jump begins" -- we must conclude that ships cannot
precisely coordinate their arrival times, although they can precisely
coordinate their arrival locations.  Note that I say "precisely
coordinate" -- certainly ships of the same class in a fleet will use
identical computer programs to run their identical jump drives at
exactly the same time when entering jump space, and thus will minimize
the differences in jump duration. Nevertheless, a fleet consists of
several different classes of ship (see, e.g., Fifth Frontier War), and
even in the best case scenario, each different class of ship will have a
different arrival time -- the cruisers, the battleships, the missile
frigates, etc.  

This is one of the benefits of battle riders in the old battle rider vs.
battleship debate:  because the battle riders are attached to the
carrier, and the carrier is doing the jumping, the battle riders all
arrive at the same time.  

So how do we play Fifth Frontier War or Trillion Credit Squadron?  If
the fleet is going to attack the main world, I think its ships must jump
into the target system at some predetermined "Point X", hich can be
fixed with considerable precision, and which is a long way (but still
less than a week my maneuver drive) from the main world. There, the
fleet waits until it's sufficiently assembled, and proceeds by maneuver
drive to the main world.  During these times -- while waiting or on the
way to the main world --  a defending fleet may be able to attack the
invading fleet.  

If the fleet is just going to refuel at gas giant(s) and move on, then
Point X will be just outside 100 diameters of the gas giants, and the
ships will refuel as they arrive.  When everyone has jumped in and
refuelled, the fleet will assemble at Point X (or some other point) and
jump to the next target.  Defenders in the gas giant(s) may of course
attack, and other defending ships may have been stationed around the gas
giant(s) or may be able to come from wherever they are to attack.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:34:37 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

David J. Smart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There's no reason why meson guns can't be used through
a gas giant's atmosphere unless you rule sensors of any
kind can't operate within a gas giant's atmosphere.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It was more a question of maneuverability than any kind of 
resistance of atmosphere. I was figuring that engagement
ranges would be so short in a GG atmosphere that the usual
aiming techniques for a spinal mount would be useless - 
assuming you could even choose which direction your ship
was pointing when the Meson Gun went off.

Yes, I know HG Meson guns get +2 to hit at short ranges.
I'm talking about "sit on your lap" short, not "visual range"
short.

Two questions about meson guns, though:

Do you have to point the tube in the direction you want
to shoot? Can you make a meson tube with an angle shot
capability, perhaps by putting a bias in the beam while
still inside the tube?

Does the end of the tube need to be open? Is there any kind
of energy that needs to be discharged, or can you fire a meson
gun through a meter or so of aerodynamically contoured hull?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:47:26 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)

At 09:05 PM 3/30/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Ok, what is a gas giant?
>
>A big ball of atmosphere that's prone to big mother storms!
>
>Atmosphere with serious attitude!

True, but will all the atmosphere be is such turmoil?  I would postulate
that by the time we will need to answer this question in game time, we will
have developed some sort of weather radar to determine the clamer spots in
the GG.  Naturally this is where the defenders might be lurking, but it
might give a calmer refueling run.

<<SNIP>>

>When you go gas diving you have to 'lock everything down' to keep it
>attached.  So turrets get locked into position, bays closed, exec.  You
>would NOT want to fire a spinal in that pea soup.  All the energy gets
>dumped into the atmosphere right there in front of you for you to fly
>through UNLESS you have a meson gun.

Another good weapon might be either fusion guns or PAWs (not sure wheter
charged or neutral - always get them confused).  A pack of fusion gun
atrmed fighters (the Zho Kia comes to mind from Adv. Class Ships 1 by FASA)
might really ruin someones day. 

I also disagree about the "locking down of turrets", if only in the CT/MT
OTU.  Based on the illustrations as posted, all they had was a port to
either emit the laser beam or launch the missile.  

>Also missle life span is likely to be short and guidence questionable.

Perhaps, perhaps not.  If you arm your missile with a good densitometer and
have it acquire the target before launch, you should stand a reasonable
chance of hitting the target.  Granted, the missiles might be larger than
their spaceborne cousins, or perhaps trade endurance/warhead size for
structural strength.

>So let look at AHL with these assumptions.
>
>She's lost her fuel shuttles and is alone.  She dives for the fuel to keep
>running in 'locked down' mode (All turrets pointed in one direction,
>probablly aft), bays closed, ect.  In come the SDB also locked down but much
>smaller and more manuverable because they are streamlined.  They past
>forward and above the AHL so their back facing turrets bear and cut loose.
>No defensive fire is posible so the AHL has to eat the missles.  The SDBs
>are close enough that guidence is not a problem and the AHL can not return
>fire in locked down mode with the SDB out of arc.  It is already struggling
>with it's limited streamlining.  She tries to pull out and run with the fuel
>she has but with the gapping holes from the missles, the pressure, and
>winds, the gas giant finishes what the SDBs started which was their plan.

This might work fine on a ship that did not have meson bays but against a
ship with them it would certainly change the situation.

>New rule, lock down for gas giant skimming.  Turrets secured pointing back,
>bays closed, locks sealed, passengers and crew straped in, breakable
>secured, tray tables in the up right possion...
>
>Could also be that most fighters are to fragile to survive a skim pass.
>Perhaps all that armor on the SDB is there for more than one reason.  Could
>also be the fighters were not designed to withstand high atmospheric
>pressures the the SDB can.  Or are so light they get blow arrond to much.

This does not tie in with previously published sources.  Certainly the SDBs
recieved the most favorable ratings, but fighters and other military ships
also rated quite well. (Secret of the Ancients)

I remember reading a book by Michael McCollum, Clouds of Saturn, which
dealt with the colonization of Saturn using sealed domed cities under giant
balloons.  They moved with the eddys and currents of the atmosphere and
were at an altitude where a minimum need of heating and cooling was needed.  



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:56:08 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Duration and Fleet Tactics

<<snippage>>
> From the foregoing -- especially the fact that jump duration "is fixed
> at the instant that jump begins" -- we must conclude that ships cannot
> precisely coordinate their arrival times, although they can precisely
> coordinate their arrival locations.  Note that I say "precisely
> coordinate" -- certainly ships of the same class in a fleet will use
> identical computer programs to run their identical jump drives at
> exactly the same time when entering jump space, and thus will minimize
> the differences in jump duration. Nevertheless, a fleet consists of
> several different classes of ship (see, e.g., Fifth Frontier War), and
> even in the best case scenario, each different class of ship will have a
> different arrival time -- the cruisers, the battleships, the missile
> frigates, etc.

This is much how I pictured it.  Although it hadn't occurred to me that
ships of the same class would be able to coordinate their arrival times more
closely.  This does allow commanders some ability to determine the arrival
_order_ of ships within the fleet.  Depending on circumstances, arriving
in-system could be a very shaky situation.  (This is where some great
adventures could occur.)  I think this adds much to the game.  Thanks for
the great info...

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:02:17 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 04:34 PM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Two questions about meson guns, though:
>
>Do you have to point the tube in the direction you want
>to shoot? Can you make a meson tube with an angle shot
>capability, perhaps by putting a bias in the beam while
>still inside the tube?

Based on deep sites which rotate the entire weapon to point at a target,
I'd have to say no, but perhaps someone skilled in particle physics might
know more.

>Does the end of the tube need to be open? Is there any kind
>of energy that needs to be discharged, or can you fire a meson
>gun through a meter or so of aerodynamically contoured hull?

If you have a deep site several hundred meters or more located underground
that can still reach out touch the enemy, I'd have to say that the magic
8-Ball would point to yes.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #373
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 374



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Fleet Ops
Re: usion exhaust...
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
Re: Jump Duration
re: Fleet Ops... & GT Nightmares
Re: Garbage
Re: Jump Duration
Re: max accel
Re: Fleet Ops
re: Fleet Ops
Re: IgNoble etiquette
Re: Rob Prior
Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: 10/100 Diameters
re: Jump Duration
[BITS] Website update 30 March 1999
Global Request for Permission
Re: Fleet Ops

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:11:39 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Does the end of the tube need to be open? Is there any kind
>of energy that needs to be discharged, or can you fire a meson
>gun through a meter or so of aerodynamically contoured hull?

If you have a deep site several hundred meters or more located underground
that can still reach out touch the enemy, I'd have to say that the magic
8-Ball would point to yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's what I thought based on the handwave physics explanation, but
it doesn't match any of the artwork for starship designs. The Tigress
even keeps fighter ops to aft so none of them will get hurt by the
discharge from the beam.

Does the Deep Meson Site have a longer tube for secondary energy
dispersal that a spaceship doesn't use - the spaceship just vents
this waste energy out the spinal mount tube? If that's the case, there
could be a problem with firing a meson spinal while going hypersonic
through a gas giant.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:21:08 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: usion exhaust...

Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:29:15 -0800, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>What is the byproduct of a fusion reaction?  Helium?

It can be.  Or, if the reaction goes far enough, higher elements like
carbon.

>  How is it removed from
>RW reactors?

I don't think it is (before the experiment is over).

>  How will it be removed when a self-sustaining reaction is
>started?

I don't think they are even worrying about that right now.

>How would the exhaust of a fusion reactor be removed from a starship
>reactor, or from the starship itself, or would the reactor just be vented to
>vacuum?

In GURPS, the quantities are small enough that you don't need to.
In Traveller the plasma, after the heat has been extracted from
it, is presumably just vented to space.

>How about when the starship is in J-space?  I would guess you
would stick it temporarily back in the fuel tank.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:24:48 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

Walt Smith asked:
>
>Two questions about meson guns, though:
>
>Do you have to point the tube in the direction you want
to shoot?

Yes.

> Can you make a meson tube with an angle shot
>capability, perhaps by putting a bias in the beam while
>still inside the tube?

This is an assumption that a number of TML'rs (myself
included) make. I don't believe it's documented anywhere
one way or another but a *small* bias is usually
acceptable.

>Does the end of the tube need to be open?

Based on all versions of Traveller, the *only*
thing that will interfere with a meson gun discharge is
a meson screen. Therefore, 'no'.

>Is there any kind
>of energy that needs to be discharged, or can you fire a meson
>gun through a meter or so of aerodynamically contoured hull?

Since a meson weapon is effectively a particle
accelerator, one of the TML particle physics
gurus would give a better answer but I'd say
'no'.

In fact, in the campaign I'm currently running
in, we've done exactly this. We powered up the
meson gun on the Artifact ship in our hold and
surprised the heck out of the Berserker target
(just before it catastrophically detonated).
Of course, the local Navy is now very insistent
that the ship and crew be its guests at their
base for a celebration in our honor.

'sigh'

Decisions, decisions....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:10:42 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a vehement anti-Thruster person and buy the
handwaves for em.  I just prefer HEPlaR.  Thruster Plates do appear IMTU (at
TL-17).

> Speaking for MTU there is only one reason to use thrusters:
> They do not consume fuel. In all other aspect the are (seriously)
> inferior to HEPlaR, especially when you are in need of lots of thrust.

I've test designed some ships (big ones, say 50k dt) to see the difference,
and it's massive.  Fuel tankage for a large warships G-turns is very
significant.  I'm able to have enormous increases in weaponry and armor w/ T-
plate vessels, even if the T-plates are themselves noticably larger than the
HEPlaR drive.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:25:03 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Duration

At 02:36 AM 3/30/99 -0600, you wrote:
>For single ships this isn't a problem, but once you start trying to
>coordinate two or more ships, things get interesting.  For any sizable
>fleet, 17% of its ships will arrive in-system on day 6, 66% arrive on day 7,
>and the remaining 17% will arrive on day 8.  (All % very approximate).  This
>provides an interesting tactics problem, as the fleet will be divided for a
>certain period of time, and a random mix of ships will be appearing out of
>jump (over time).  Strategically, this means you would have to plan for
>eight day movement cycles.
>
>I assume that most game systems would ignore this little problem, but I'd be
>interested in hearing how it would be handled otherwise.  How would it
>affect ship design?  Fleet composition?  Would commanders stagger their
>jump-entries, in order to ensure that main-line battle elements arrived
>first?  Would stealth become more of a priority, since ships might have to
>spend 24-48 hours without support?
>
>It seems like some interesting developments might occur...

It seems to me that this is an argument in favor of battleriders (as
opposed to battleships), since a whole lot of them can arrive at once.
Perhaps a super-tender that carries not only normal ship-of-the-line class
battleriders but also smaller craft (destroyers, escorts, etc.)?  

Alternatively, you jump your fleet to a point a few days travel away from
the target, and let the fleet assemble.  Then, proceed to the target in
realspace.  This kills the element of surprise though...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:28:25 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops... & GT Nightmares

>>>>
<snip>
>One thing that can hurt a cruiser is an SDB that jumps it at the
worst
>possible moment during gas giant refueling ops. No shields, no
agility,
>no effective computer advantage, most weapons useless...owie.

        Where in HG does it actually say this?  I don't recall ever
having
read this.  Many implications of this sort of condtion, but I don't
remember
anywhere explicit.
<snip>
       --Michel
>>>>
While having the ship essentially helpless during GG refueling is not
explicit in High Guard, it is implied in the name.  There are however
references in Azhanti High Lightning to this, with at least one scenario
specifically based on this helplessness.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:10:46 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

> Not the way you appear to define canon (the body of published adventures as
> opposed to the rules). But not everybody are as willing to consider the
> rules to be of secondary importance as you are. As you know, I for one think
> the rules are even more important than the background (because a good,
> self-consistent rules-set, if adhered to by writers, will ensure that the
> background is also self-consistent).

That would be nice if we had the same rules as when Traveller started (and if
they were decent and flexible enough to be applied to situations that require
more detail), but I'd wager it's a large majority that don't use CT rules
anymore (though maybe not as large on the TML).   To avoid this misperception,
in the future, I'll just refer to the Previously Published Setting, maybe.
;-)  Nah, canon is shorter.  The TML has been a mixed mechanics lot for a long
time.  So when you say "canon" you're referring to the rules?  I'm referring
to the setting, not the adventures.  The adventures are like snapshots into
the setting (and themselves laughable in places, as your sig quote from
Kinunir illustrates).  The rules are just for interaction (and flawed in
allowing ships to have no internal tankage, that's clearly not the intent of
the ship design rules).  

> Mind you, that dosen't mean I don't think the background is important.

I hope so!  LOL.  What rules do you use anyways?

> >*Nothing* says every last drop of j-fuel is consumed at the instant of
jump,
> >is there?
> 
> Well, yes. The rules. You can take your Gazelle, initiate a jump that uses
> all the drop tank fuel, drop the drop tanks, make the jump and arrive at
your
> destination with every last drop of your interior fuel intact.

Ahem.  The Gazelle *has* internal tankage.  It'd be easy enough, for anyone
interested, to calculate how many m3 of fuel the gazelle uses and figure out a
more detailed Jump theory for their own TU.  So far we've still only seen the
gazelle in 'official' material w/ drop tanks, right?

The CT rules hardly imitate you use every last drop of fuel when u initiate
jump.  Otherwise the X-boats would have drop tanks.  It would make the jump
fuel required less.  Course, that can possibly be handwaved away by saying
it's a new tech, but how long have the Gazelle's been around?  Supp 9 would
lead one to believe they've been around awhile...

> >Drop tanks exist in every version of Traveller.
> 
> And they perform the same in every version.

Yes.  And only in a bad way if there's a quirky theory of J-drive in place.
Otherwise, they barely rate mention, much less use in design.  

> >I'm taking it there are no designs with drop tanks lacking internal
tankage?
> 
> None published (IIRC), but there's an awful lot of TCS designs out there
> that used to be legal and would not be if your change was adopted.

lol.  You make it seem like i'm interested in bursting peoples bubbles.  Noone
is going to ritually burn these TCS designs nor hunt down and heap scorn upon
their designers.  As far as these designs are concerned, I'm far kinder than
the people who don't allow drop tanks period, no Ifs, Ands, or Buts.

> >The only problems w/ drop tanks (aside from eventually sundering economic
> >assumptions), is the issue that is only a problem if you're the "instant
> >consumption" model of J-drive.  
> 
> Even with your model you have J-2 worth of fuel being consumed instantly
> (actually, in 20-40 minutes), so I don't quite see just how it solves
> any problems with the instant consumption of J-4 worth of fuel. Reduce
> them, perhaps, but how does it solve anything?

It means the Gazelle (the only canon drop tank design) is still "legal" (and
makes sense).  Maybe it needs to be the same proportion of drop tank fuel to
internal tankage.  Maybe it's an exponential equation.  It could be anything.
I think that's good, as it allows each of us to do different things w/ our
TUs, yet maintain a relationship w/ the OTU.

I'd also like to see T5 take some initiative and set something down, as
regards drop tanks, that doesn't involve revisionism in abolishing the design,
nor needlessly chiseling J-drive in stone.  A reprinting of the Jumpspace
article would be fine (maybe in a J-space/J-drive supplement of some kind...
that's never been done).  We'll see.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:10:40 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Duration

> I hadn't thought of the effect that jump duration would have on fleet
> actions.

That's why you need to coordinate jumps.  IIRC, there was something from MT(?)
where it doubled the jump calculation time.  My house rules have a couple
levels.  Coordination is having task force ships work their own calculations
off've a designated 'flagship' and then going.  There is still variance (due
to each ships different equipment, etc, mostly).  The supreme level is a
"slave jump" where each ship slaves itself to the computers of the flagship
(cross checking the single jump calculation to the componets of every ship).
Every ship appears in exactly the same relationship at exactly the same time.
Duration of calculation can get very long with large numbers of ships.  

In any case, it's easier to jump to the far far outsystem (say 1 billion km),
where it's extremely unlikely there will be any native defense, to get a gauge
on the defenses, refuel (tanker or cometary bodies, etc), and then come in
coordinated (or IMTU, slave).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:10:51 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

> >Duh.  We're told EMS sensors cover *everything* in between longwave radar
and
> >gamma rays.  That includes longwave radio, shortwave radio, microwave
radio,
> >heat/IR, visible light, UV, X-ray, Gamma.
> >
> 
> NOT PHYSICALLY POSIBLE.
> 
> I have designed transmiter/reciever sets.  There are physical limits to
> turner range and sensitivity.  There are to many diferences to even begin to

How did I KNOW you were going to say that?  LOL.  Unfortunately, I doubt
you've designed a TL-15 set.  Nor even a TL-10 set.  If you have, I'd like to
help underwrite your R&D and we can all get rich.  :-)

> discuss between search and targeting radar sets and high sensitivity pasive
> detectors.  Your swiss army sensor set is not physically doable without some
> form of self reconfigurable nanotech self rebuilding systems.

That self reconfigurable nanotech might be how it all works.  ;-)  Remember,
we're talking about TL-15 (a Rampart).  Now, canon says EMS sensors are TL10+.
That's the 22nd century IIRC.  Come back in a hundred years and tell me that
again.  lol

> >Well unfortunately Traveller history is against you, as the usage of these
> >sensors (EMS, at least) in atmospheres is well documented (try every TL-10+
> 
> There is nothing in canon that contradics what I have said.  It is your
> assumptions of the range of capabilities on the ems that is overestimated.

You're the one saying the Rampart isn't going to be able to use it's EMS
sensors in the atmosphere.  All previously published material says it will.
It's a ground interface craft that is also a space fighter.  I'm not making
any assumptinos, just reading out of one of my handy Traveller books.  The
specifics (EMS covering everything above) is limited to the DGP SoM IIRC.
I've never seen it anywhere else, anyways.  The SoM says "Finally, by late
tech level 10, most cultures use computer cross-correlation to integrate a
variety of electromagnetic sensors into a single sensor array."  That's the
EMS array.  Keep in mind they're massive at TL-10 (By FF&S, the 300,000km
active set on the Rampart, if it was TL-10, would be 26m3 and mass 52 tonnes).
Now, by TL-15 they're getting pretty small (the Ramparts active set is 3m3 and
6 tonnes)...  

Don't argue w/ me about it.  You don't like it, don't use it.  It's canon,
though and you want to have "official" Traveller space fighter vs aerospace
fighter, you're gonna have to swallow it. 

> >design) in both grav and space vehicles that have no problems operating in
the
> >others environment.  We're talking bout a TL-15 Rampart here that has
> >holographic dymanic linked computers that can assist the user and is very
> >nearly AI by itself.  It's a no brainer.  The tech is the great equalizer.
> >
> 
> Sorry, no amount of computer assistance can improve an unaugmented human's
> data bandwidth.  It can only prioritize that data along preset lines.  Ask
> the airforce about it.  They have been fighting this problem for 20+ years.
 
The AF is TL-8.  TL-7 20 years ago.  Like I said, we're talking about a
*TL-15* Rampart.  Reread what I wrote, please.  7 TL's and a few thousand
years give great liberties to science-fiction, no?  ;-)

> >I trust u've finally conceded that by TL-15, aerospace fighters are mostly
> >replaced by grav tanks?  Avionics & airframe make the space fighter an
> >aerospace fighter.
> >
> 
> No.  I pity the aerospace fighter that comes up against a purpose built
> atmosphereric or space fighter.

You keep saying that, but I've witnessed so many gaming combats that go
against it.  I'm gonna have to ask you to put up or shut up.  I'll trust you
to be honest on your own, since we don't have compatible design systems.
Using GV2, design the best aerospace or atmospheric fighter you can, and then
the best space fighter you can.  The original example was TL-9 vs TL-15, but
whatever u wanna do (I think u're leaning on TL-15 vs TL-15).  Run a combat w/
someone (who's not a moron).  Post us the designs and tell us the result.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:56:00 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

At 04:24 PM 3/30/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Do you have to point the tube in the direction you want
>to shoot?
>
>Yes.
>
>> Can you make a meson tube with an angle shot
>>capability, perhaps by putting a bias in the beam while
>>still inside the tube?
>
>This is an assumption that a number of TML'rs (myself
>included) make. I don't believe it's documented anywhere
>one way or another but a *small* bias is usually
>acceptable.

Well, according to G:T, any spinal mount (whether Meson or PAWS) can fire
forward into an area 3 hexes wide and however many hexes long.  This means
it can hit things in an area 6000 miles across.  That seems to indicate
that yes, some aiming capacity is present.  Whether this is by playing with
the field (probably), literally rotating the tube inside the ship
(unlikely), or just quickly rotating the whole ship (in 20min turns, this
is possible) is not defined.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:56:37 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

>>>>
Do you have to point the tube in the direction you want
to shoot? Can you make a meson tube with an angle shot
capability, perhaps by putting a bias in the beam while
still inside the tube?

Does the end of the tube need to be open? Is there any kind
of energy that needs to be discharged, or can you fire a meson
gun through a meter or so of aerodynamically contoured hull?

Walt Smith
>>>>
There was an article in one of the JTAS issues that talked about the
difference between PAW and Meson weapons.  Basically it said that a
Meson weapon was two PAWs that have an intersecting point beyond the
muzzle, and the intersection of the two PAW streams produced the Mesons.
 Therefore, you would indeed need to have the tubes open to shoot.  I
believe FF&S defined a spinal mount as being able to aim several degrees
off axis.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:58:01 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: IgNoble etiquette

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
><<sa-nip>>
> 
> What would be far more interesting, is for the Private (an Armsman/3 IMTU)
> to be dressed in mufti, and being introduced to an Admiral of the fleet,
> who fawns over the noble..  "And, my Lord, what has been occupying your
> days recently?"  "I spent most of the weekend scrubbing your latrine,
> Admiral. I'm a Marine enlisted man on your flag ship.."
> --
> 
What a show-stopper _that_ would be!  (Wouldn't it be "head", though,
rather than "latrine"?)

> Douglas E. Berry
> Templar Agent at Large.
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
> 
> TravGeekCode:
> tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
> ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
> 

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:07:12 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rob Prior

How do we kick someone off the list?  Clif must go.

Eric
- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 6:14 PM

>I could rant here, but the perpetrator has run away, and it isn't worth it.
>Maybe if enough people contact Rob, maybe if people are a little more
>supportive, maybe if people think of others before they write, maybe he'll
>be back sooner rather than later. That is if you prefer the contribution of
>someone who has written material for Traveller since MT days, has provided
>some really good GURPS Traveller and T4 material both as shareware and
>freely, and is always positive. If you prefer the *contributions* of the
>likes of Clif, perhaps you'd like to say so I can consider unsubscribing
>too.
>
>Dom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:58:29 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:

>If, as you assume, you conserve your velocity when entering jump space, you
>will never get to the destination you are aiming for, because the relative
>velocity between your ship and the target system is going to be _huge_ , even
>assuming that you have cancelled your velocity relative to your own system.

The measured Radial Velocities of the nearest stars very roughly average out to
about 50 km/s (ranges from about 3 to 108 km/s)

The absolute relative velocity could well be double this, at say 100km/s. You
may also want to add in the orbital velocities of the source and target planets
to add another 50 km/s or so. Giving an average difference of around 150 km/s to
match.

This sounds _huge_, but it isn't when compared to the accelerations of traveller
ships. 
Indeed it could well be one of the reasons traveller ships need such huge
accelerations.

A 1G drive ship will exceed 100km/s in its journey to 100 diameters from an
earth size planet (with turnover).

Selecting appropriate exit vectors from the source planet and entry vectors to
the destination planet will also greatly reduce the velocities to be matched.

Matching velocities, choosing appropriate exit and entry vectors, plotting
relative orbital motions, etc., can all add to colour - if you and your players
want it.  Otherwise the basic transit times are useful approximations for ease
of gameplay.

Incidentally adding this mechanic automatically rules out very low thrust, low
cost, commercial ship designs.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:11:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

	This is in response to Frankie's statement that the idea of
retaining velocity going into and out of jump was "patently ridiculous"
because the relative velocity between you and your destination would be
"near C".  In actual fact, the relative velocities between stars in our
neck of the woods are in the neighborhood of 50 km/s (double that would be
the usual maximum). A ship at 1g can match this sort of velocity
difference in a mater of hours.  So no "automagic" matching of vectors is
necessary.

	For this reason, the idea of decelerating to a small velocity
relative to your point of departure is not so ridiculous.  Assuming the
destination system is moving in roughly the same direction as the
departure system (a pretty safe bet), this will tend to reduce the
variability in your arrival velocity and (on average) give you a shorter
vector at destination.

	Respectfully, you really shouldn't call a person's ideas 
ridiculous so easily.

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:55:22 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Jump Duration

 "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net> wrote:


>I hadn't thought of the effect that jump duration would have on fleet
>actions.
>
>D6  roll of 1=(6 days in jump), 2 thru 5=(7 days in jump), and 6=(8 days in
>jump) (MT/TNE)

There was a debate on this about two months ago. Basically, in MT Errata
(part of the Q&A section in the MT Journal) it was proposed that ships in a
fleet could effectively do a cautious jump and reduce the arrival spread to
less than an hour.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:35:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] Website update 30 March 1999

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

BITS is proud to announce that the latest revision of '101 Starships for
GURPS Traveller' (Release 2) is now available for download from the BITS
website.

http://www.bits.org.uk/             on the archive page.

This 101 book is only available as an Adobe Acrobat pdf file, and provides
descriptions and design spreadsheets for more than 107 starships. All the
ships were built using the modular system presented in Steve Jackson Games'
excellent GURPS Traveller.  The author, Rob Prior, has included notes on
the design system, plus a starship encounter system.


All designs were produced using the GURPS Traveller Shipyard Software (also
written by Rob, and currently available for MacOS), demos of which may be
downloaded from the products page at the BITS site. The software provides a
menu driven interface to produce designs using the rules in GURPS
Traveller, including the additional modules found in Star Mercs and Far
Trader (both supplements for Gt produced by SJG). With the software, ships
can be designed in a matter of minutes.

Enjoy!

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:39:51 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Global Request for Permission

A number of people have posted ship spec sheets and descriptions
to the list.  I would appreciate hearing from those people; I
would like permission to leach them from the list, both past and
future, and include them in the Freelance Traveller Shipyard.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:54:15 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >Does the end of the tube need to be open? Is there any kind
> >of energy that needs to be discharged, or can you fire a meson
> >gun through a meter or so of aerodynamically contoured hull?
> 
> If you have a deep site several hundred meters or more located underground
> that can still reach out touch the enemy, I'd have to say that the magic
> 8-Ball would point to yes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> That's what I thought based on the handwave physics explanation, but
> it doesn't match any of the artwork for starship designs. The Tigress
> even keeps fighter ops to aft so none of them will get hurt by the
> discharge from the beam.
> 
I seem to recall some mention of deep meson sites (manned by deep
Masons?) being spherical hulls with contra-grav.  This enables them to
rotate to face any direction, and still fire.  The TIGRESS-class can, of
course, rotate to fire as well.  I'm not sure why fighter ops would be
impeded by being near the "firing port" of a meson beam, unless the
target was close enough to the fighters that they ran the risk of being
within the decay of the meson beam.

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #374
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 31 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 375



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Global Request for Permission
re: Fleet Ops
Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage
re: Fleep Ops
Re: Global Request for Permission
Re: 10/100 Diameters
Re: Garbage
600-ton liner deckplans
re: Fleet Ops
Combat Support Element Revisited (was re: Fleet Ops )
Re: Combat Support Element Revisited (was re: Fleet Ops )
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Traveller LARP?
Re: Traveller LARP?
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Coming out of the closet
Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
Re: Fleet Ops
Re: Global Request for Permission
Re: 10/100 Diameters
Re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:55:59 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Global Request for Permission

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
> A number of people have posted ship spec sheets and descriptions
> to the list.  I would appreciate hearing from those people; I
> would like permission to leach them from the list, both past and
> future, and include them in the Freelance Traveller Shipyard.
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com

AuricTech Shipyards welcomes the publicity, with the following
stipulations:

1.  Please credit me with my designs.

2.  Please credit Andrew Akins for his spreadsheets, as they have
greatly increased my productivity.

3.  While this last is not a requirement, a link to my Web site would be
both appreciated and useful (I don't post all of my designs to TML, and
my site includes the spreadsheet used to create the designs).

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:02:35 EST
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

>>>>>>My rules will allow for the difference between ships that are scooping
>fuel and ships that aren't, but the major effects of a gas giant will be to
>remove just about every advantage a big ship has over a little one.
>This will make little SDB's a major threat in the depths of a gas giant.<<<<<

Why wouldn't the various Traveller navies use ships dedicated to the task of
ramscooping and and fuelling(tankers) the task force? Then the ships awaiting
fuel could stand 'highguard' and be combat ready 'till fuelling ops are
complete...
The US Navy has  oilers(AOR"s) and other provisioning & repair  ships...
Just another thought as I relearn the various ins&outs...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:17:25 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage

Is their a OTU jump theory? or is everything we are talking about just
speculation. I've seen different theory's, with hydrogen bubbles and
lanthanum grids, capacitors and sinks, etc...

I've read through my CT/MT books and haven't found any "real" explanations.
Only hints of how it's supposed to work. I can only assume, by the existance
of drop tanks, that all the fuel is used prior to jump. (Their's no way you
could jump with drop tanks if you need fuel throughout the jump.)

I've thought about it and talked with my group here. We figure both methods
can work. If a ship is designed with capacitors, then the fuel can be used
to charge up the cap's prior to jump. Then the power is just drawn from the
cap's throughout the jump. Alternativly, a ship can partially charge its
cap's to initiate jump then use the remaining fuel to recharge the cap's
during the jump. I imagine fully charging the cap's would take considerably
longer than just a partial charge. So, using up all the fuel would take
longer to initiate jump. Fully charging the caps would give a chance to drop
the tanks and get far enough away to not interfere with the jump. A partial
charge jump could also be used like an "emergency" jump. CT/MT says a black
globe can absorb enough energy to jump (but their must be enough fuel) In my
idea here, this would be the equivelant of a partially charged jump drive
and enough fuel would be necessary to complete the jump. (A ship would be
destroyed before it could accumulate enough energy from the black globe to
jump without fuel.)

Can anyone explain a canon reason why this wouldn't work? I'm interested in
"fine-tuning" a jump theory my group is working on. When it is finished,
I'll put it up on the web as an IMTU Jumpspace FAQ.

>Gary wrote
>The CT rules hardly imitate you use every last drop of fuel when u initiate
>jump.  Otherwise the X-boats would have drop tanks.  It would make the jump
>fuel required less.

High guard and MT both say all fuel is used then tanks are dropped away. I
don't see any reason why an x-boat can't operate on drop tanks. since a
tender will be their with the scout, it can collect the tanks to use with
the next ship.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:36:34 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Fleep Ops

>There's no reason why meson guns can't be used through
>a gas giant's atmosphere unless you rule sensors of any
>kind can't operate within a gas giant's atmosphere.

You can, however, argue that PAWs and meson weapons will be 
hard to aim (and hence short-ranged) near a planet with a
strong magnetic field - and some GG's have very strong
magnetic fields.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:39:08 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Global Request for Permission

Jeff,

You can file this for future reference.

Anything I post to the list, wheither ship designs or whatever is free
for publication in any of the Traveller related webzines etc., with the
single stipulation that a credit line is attached. If the information is
a ship design (and deemed usable) I typically post which software, if
any I used in the design process, credit should be given to the author
of the software.

Now I'll have to try and write some really realavent posts! Darn!

Mike

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
> A number of people have posted ship spec sheets and descriptions
> to the list.  I would appreciate hearing from those people; I
> would like permission to leach them from the list, both past and
> future, and include them in the Freelance Traveller Shipyard.
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:44:33 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

>Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:11:42 -0500 (EST)
>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

>	For this reason, the idea of decelerating to a small velocity
>relative to your point of departure is not so ridiculous.  Assuming the
>destination system is moving in roughly the same direction as the
>departure system (a pretty safe bet), this will tend to reduce the
>variability in your arrival velocity and (on average) give you a shorter
>vector at destination.

My guess is that what one would do is, assuming no releative
movement between worlds, accelerate all the way out to the
jump point.  Jump so that your velocity vector is pointed
in toward the destination.  Then decelerate to the destination.

If there is relative velocity, you just play around with this
so as much of the velocity you build up in acclerating out
goes toward matching the difference in velocity between
the ships.

Of course this means that while ships can jump from anywhere.
There will be prefered spots to leave and arrive at (for each
destination).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:46:23 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Tue, 30 Mar 1999 01:10:04 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

>> >There aren't any canon designs that have drop tank equipped ships w/o
>internal
>> >tankage are there?  This is what needs to be outlawed by the design systems
>> >IMO.  The rest can be solved by the Gearheads.

>> Rather than coming up with a new theory and then coming up
>> with a number of reasons why it can't do what one would expect
>> I would just not have them in first place.

>I'm not invoking any "new theories."  *Nothing* says every last drop of j-fuel
>is consumed at the instant of jump, is there?

Well, the idea that you can use drop tanks, but only for part
of your fuel requirements _is_ new.  Also, there are other
sources where the use of fuel before jump is described, Anna
Novic (or whatever, I don't remember the name exactly),
jump projectors, etc. all indicate this.

Also, Hans' point is a relevant one.  If the Gazelle uses
the fuel in the
drop tanks (leaving full internal tanks), drops them and jumps,
and then arrives with full internal tanks, it couldn't have
used any fuel during jump.

>  Drop tanks exist in every
>version of Traveller.  They're not just going to go away.

Well, first of all, they don't exist in GT (where I think they
should be a strictly optional rule) or in T5 (which isn't out
yet).  As the MT, CT, and TNE, these are, since they aren't
being published, by definition personal traveller universes.

due to assumptions on the workings of J-drives, assumptions that don't seem
grounded in canon.

>Nope.  According to my MT Ref's Manual, Dismountable tanks are "fixed and
>semi- permament" and (the exterior ones) require two weeks to be dismounted.
>Drop tanks are instant drop.

That makes even less sense.  You can explosively blow a tank
away in the minutes before jumping, but you if you want to b
olt it you need 2 weeks???

>How do drop tanks bust up YTU?  The economic thing Hans was talking bout (and
>solved nicely if that's the only problem) or the issue of J-drive workings I'm
>talking bout (and is solved by correcting the theory behind J-drives)?

Mostly the former, even if you arbitrarily say they can only provide
some fraction of the fuel (which seem hokey to me) you will still
have every ship that can using them.  Any traffic along a
major trade route (important worlds and all the one that lie
between them) should be dominated by a system of jump tanks
(whether they are ships that use them to replace all or 1/2
their fuel).

As to your "correcting" the theory, I don't really see it as
solving the problems (unless you were talking about some that
I missed).

>The only problems w/ drop tanks (aside from eventually sundering economic
>assumptions), is the issue that is only a problem if you're the "instant
>consumption" model of J-drive.

If you drop the instant consumption model, you do have problems
with various areas (like the presence of jump projectors at
higher TLs).  Though I think the economic issues are far greater.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:26:12 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: 600-ton liner deckplans

Deckplans for the _Isarc_ ex-subsidized, ex-Imperial,
70+ year-old TL12 600dt liner are up at my site:

metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Shipyard/Deckplans

The selection list at the lower left has gif's of each deck,
each section, a zoomed-out full view, plus images of
two other ships (a jump boat and a 200t trader).

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:49:15 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 05:11 PM 30/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Does the end of the tube need to be open? Is there any kind
>>of energy that needs to be discharged, or can you fire a meson
>>gun through a meter or so of aerodynamically contoured hull?
>
>If you have a deep site several hundred meters or more located underground
>that can still reach out touch the enemy, I'd have to say that the magic
>8-Ball would point to yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>That's what I thought based on the handwave physics explanation, but
>it doesn't match any of the artwork for starship designs. The Tigress
>even keeps fighter ops to aft so none of them will get hurt by the
>discharge from the beam.
>
>Does the Deep Meson Site have a longer tube for secondary energy
>dispersal that a spaceship doesn't use - the spaceship just vents
>this waste energy out the spinal mount tube? If that's the case, there
>could be a problem with firing a meson spinal while going hypersonic
>through a gas giant.
>
>Walt Smith
>

        Just as an aside, my understanding is that meson particles are
formed from the collison of two high-energy PAWs.   Its a byproduct.
        Where the rest of the particle beams go is not mentioned in any
reading I have done, but I highly doubt 100% efficiency.  So, I would
presume that there is a short-range PAWs discharge directly in front of the
collision chamber.
        Underground, who cares.  Just make the weapon enclosure cavern big
enough it doesn't touch a wall.
        In space, who cares.  Just don't let friendlies into the danger space.

        JMHO.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:49:16 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Combat Support Element Revisited (was re: Fleet Ops )

At 07:02 PM 30/03/99 EST, you wrote:
>
>>>>>>>My rules will allow for the difference between ships that are scooping
>>fuel and ships that aren't, but the major effects of a gas giant will be to
>>remove just about every advantage a big ship has over a little one.
>>This will make little SDB's a major threat in the depths of a gas giant.<<<<<
>
>Why wouldn't the various Traveller navies use ships dedicated to the task of
>ramscooping and and fuelling(tankers) the task force? Then the ships awaiting
>fuel could stand 'highguard' and be combat ready 'till fuelling ops are
>complete...
>The US Navy has  oilers(AOR"s) and other provisioning & repair  ships...
>Just another thought as I relearn the various ins&outs...
>
>BobS.
>

        Hi, Bob!
        We had an involved discussion about this idea.  Traveller canon does
not seem to mention much about indigeous Comabt Support Elements (CSE)
within a squadron or fleet.  Battle Tankers, Rescue Ships, Millitary
Material Transports, etc all ought to be there, but there seems to be no
stated requirement.  TCS handwaves them out of existance, Supp 9 doesn't
mention them, etc.

        In short, since the Other Guy doesn't have to build them, why would
you spend BCr building Battle Tankers only to have them wind up in a cat
fight with the Other Guy's CruRon.

        Unless everyone agrees to use CSE in their game, anyone who
unilaterally opts for them gets slaughtered.

        IMTU, CSE is a bit of an issue...  Someone posted cargo space
requirements for military vessels, and I am using them.  There are also some
AOR-type craft IMTU.  <shrug>  Its pretty much up to each person.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:55:54 EST
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element Revisited (was re: Fleet Ops )

>>>        In short, since the Other Guy doesn't have to build them, why would
you spend BCr building Battle Tankers only to have them wind up in a cat
fight with the Other Guy's CruRon.<<<

OK, thanx Michel. I didn't take into concideration any resource limitations
different senerios might have...Been a *long* time since my last strat &
tactics game...
The posibilities for an open ended campaigne are intriguing, tho....

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:35:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

unsubscribe traveller

subscribe traveller rtwilson@rollanet.org
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:27:40 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller LARP?

Jason,
I was running the "Saturday Night Special" Lve Action Traveller Game at 
the Skirmishes conventions in FL back in 89 and 90. Minimum number of 
players was normally twelve, max was at one time 19.
It can be done, but there are several major steps required and the 
referee MUST be extremely well prepared.

Roger Barr




>
>Now, that's an interesting comment.  How -would- one run a Traveller 
>LARP?  Has it been done?  Does anyone have any plans to do so within 
>the next year?  And, how do I get a copy of the rules so I can get in 
>on this?  :)
>
>(Hey, if Star Wars and B5 can have LARPs, why can't we, eh?)
>
>Intrigued With The Possibilities,
>Jason
>
>==============================
>Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
>(512)458-7111 ext. 3375
>
>Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
>==============================

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:38:50 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller LARP?

David,
Your glass wall camment is totally correct. The wall must be totally 
solid (you'd be amazed at the courage/foolhardiness of some players...

Also, I have found at the convention games, it is best to disarm the 
characters (maybe the players too <grin>). This requires more thought 
and less of the "I'm getting frustrated so I'm going to shoot 
something..." attitude by some people.

Roger Barr

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:21:54 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/29/99 10:54:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> wmacdude@concentric.net writes:
>
> <<  Here's one, What's the hold on Poker Pai Gow? >>
>
> I don't play it, so I don't know odds off hand. I'll try and find out for you.

Don't bother it was a deadpan that failed.

> BTW; don't you live in Reno. Don't they have that up there?

 I lived in Carson until last week, I'm in the Bay area now.

With the wife's destruction of our marriage I figured to be closer to
family.

On a brighter note I actually played in my first Trav game in years
( 3 years ) last sunday.

- --
Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:39:06 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Coming out of the closet

I have a small confession to make, and those of you who know me may be
surprised. I have tried to hide it and deny it. I considered joining a
counseling group so that I could workshop my way through it, but it just has
not worked.   I also subscribe to one of the Alternity lists.

I'm sorry.... Forgive me. I am but toe jam between your mighty feet...

But while I was there I discovered TSR/WoTC will soon be releasing a series
of miniatures (prob. 25mm scale). Obviously not all of them will be suitable
for Traveller, but some might be.

I remember, when I was a child, being taken to the celebrated Barnum's
Circus, which contained an exhibition of freaks and monstrosities. But the
exhibit on the programme that I most desired to see was the one described as
"The Boneless Wonder". My parents judged that the spectacle would be too
revolting and too demoralizing for my youthful eyes, and I waited fifty
years to see the Boneless Wonder sitting on the Treasury Bench.

Winston Churchill, 1933

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:44:47 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:55:18 -0800, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

>Sorry, couldn't help it.  The other thing I see about landing gear is the
>ability to soften the shock of setting the ship down.  If you're doing it to
>hull hardpoints only, you REALLY wanna' be as gentle as possible in the
>process of landing so you put minimum extra stress on the hull, regardless
>of how much the hull is strengthened for contact landing like that.  The
>compression oleos (correct term?) take up that extra shock before
>distributing the weight to the hull.

Are Your gracitics so extremly bad to control? Mine are not!

Jens
- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:27:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>> Can you make a meson tube with an angle shot
>>capability, perhaps by putting a bias in the beam while
>>still inside the tube?
>
>This is an assumption that a number of TML'rs (myself
>included) make. I don't believe it's documented anywhere
>one way or another but a *small* bias is usually
>acceptable.

In the Full Thrust Traveller playtest rules, we have PA and meson spinals
firing in a straight line from the axis ofthe ship. This turned into the
reality that you couldn't hit with a spinl mount at anything over 18"
because lining up the ship was a complete pain.

This was changed to a 2" wide path (inner 1" doing full damage, outer edge
being a grazing hit). This still proved very hard to achieve hits. We're
now considering how to assist alignment of the spinal so it's a more
effective weapon.

This has made me believe that spinal mounts must have some angled shot
capability.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:42:07 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Global Request for Permission

From:           	jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date sent:      	Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:39:51 GMT

>A number of people have posted ship spec sheets and descriptions
>to the list.  I would appreciate hearing from those people; I
>would like permission to leach them from the list, both past and
>future, and include them in the Freelance Traveller Shipyard.

You've got mine. Plus you can have any of those already on my site.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:54:43 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

> This is in response to Frankie's statement that the idea of
>retaining velocity going into and out of jump was "patently ridiculous"
>because the relative velocity between you and your destination would be
>"near C".  In actual fact, the relative velocities between stars in our
>neck of the woods are in the neighborhood of 50 km/s (double that would be
>the usual maximum). A ship at 1g can match this sort of velocity
>difference in a mater of hours.  So no "automagic" matching of vectors is
>necessary.

Hmm, I thought that the average relative velocity was far higher than that,
around the order of 50,000 km/s,
Perhaps I read something written in m/s as km/s

That's why I like this list, it's so educational.

> For this reason, the idea of decelerating to a small velocity
>relative to your point of departure is not so ridiculous.  Assuming the
>destination system is moving in roughly the same direction as the
>departure system (a pretty safe bet), this will tend to reduce the
>variability in your arrival velocity and (on average) give you a shorter
>vector at destination.

However, this raises the opposite point.

If these differences can be handled by Traveller ships so easily, why would
they bother to slow down on the way out ? Just ensure you accelerate in the
right direction to put your ship on an inbound vector when you pop out  of
J-space and you've saved yourself quite a bit of time.

I can think of one reason why having the smallest relative velocity would be
good, and that's if you can't
calculate what the _direction_ of your vector will be on exit from J-space.

> Respectfully, you really shouldn't call a person's ideas
>ridiculous so easily.

Sorry, I apologize for the brusque tone of the previous post.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:02:52 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 05:10 PM 3/30/99 EST, you wrote:
>> >Duh.  We're told EMS sensors cover *everything* in between longwave radar
>and
>> >gamma rays.  That includes longwave radio, shortwave radio, microwave
>radio,
>> >heat/IR, visible light, UV, X-ray, Gamma.
>> >
>> 
>> NOT PHYSICALLY POSIBLE.
>> 
>> I have designed transmiter/reciever sets.  There are physical limits to
>> turner range and sensitivity.  There are to many diferences to even begin to
>
>How did I KNOW you were going to say that?  LOL.  Unfortunately, I doubt
>you've designed a TL-15 set.  Nor even a TL-10 set.  If you have, I'd like to
>help underwrite your R&D and we can all get rich.  :-)
>

HA!  I wish it was that easy.  What I am saying is that there are curtain
physical limits that are very unlikely to change regardless of tech level
unless of course we 'discover' some new elements with some very interesting
properties or develope a device with capabilities like those of Star Treks
transporters of holodecks.  A device that can freely convert any matter into
any energy and back.  With THAT you could have your omni sensor/transciever.

>> discuss between search and targeting radar sets and high sensitivity pasive
>> detectors.  Your swiss army sensor set is not physically doable without some
>> form of self reconfigurable nanotech self rebuilding systems.
>
>That self reconfigurable nanotech might be how it all works.  ;-)  Remember,
>we're talking about TL-15 (a Rampart).  Now, canon says EMS sensors are TL10+.
>That's the 22nd century IIRC.  Come back in a hundred years and tell me that
>again.  lol
>

Nanotech is not part of canon.  If it were Traveller's back ground would be
very different.  The laws of cause and effect are immuteable.  If nonotech
is available on very limited scale then a variable sensor system would be
posible but that would also mean that the sensor could only operate in one
band at a time and there would be a delay in band change.

>> >Well unfortunately Traveller history is against you, as the usage of these
>> >sensors (EMS, at least) in atmospheres is well documented (try every TL-10+
>> 
>> There is nothing in canon that contradics what I have said.  It is your
>> assumptions of the range of capabilities on the ems that is overestimated.
>
>You're the one saying the Rampart isn't going to be able to use it's EMS
>sensors in the atmosphere.  All previously published material says it will.
>It's a ground interface craft that is also a space fighter.  I'm not making
>any assumptinos, just reading out of one of my handy Traveller books.  The
>specifics (EMS covering everything above) is limited to the DGP SoM IIRC.
>I've never seen it anywhere else, anyways.  The SoM says "Finally, by late
>tech level 10, most cultures use computer cross-correlation to integrate a
>variety of electromagnetic sensors into a single sensor array."  That's the
>EMS array.  Keep in mind they're massive at TL-10 (By FF&S, the 300,000km
>active set on the Rampart, if it was TL-10, would be 26m3 and mass 52 tonnes).
>Now, by TL-15 they're getting pretty small (the Ramparts active set is 3m3 and
>6 tonnes)...  
>

I do not have SoM and you are talking about a very different rampart that I
have access to.  6 tons of sensors!  What does that rampart weight?

>Don't argue w/ me about it.  You don't like it, don't use it.  It's canon,
>though and you want to have "official" Traveller space fighter vs aerospace
>fighter, you're gonna have to swallow it. 
>

I'm a CT/GT player/GM.  SoM is not in my TU.

>> >design) in both grav and space vehicles that have no problems operating in
>the
>> >others environment.  We're talking bout a TL-15 Rampart here that has
>> >holographic dymanic linked computers that can assist the user and is very
>> >nearly AI by itself.  It's a no brainer.  The tech is the great equalizer.
>> >
>> 
>> Sorry, no amount of computer assistance can improve an unaugmented human's
>> data bandwidth.  It can only prioritize that data along preset lines.  Ask
>> the airforce about it.  They have been fighting this problem for 20+ years.
> 
>The AF is TL-8.  TL-7 20 years ago.  Like I said, we're talking about a
>*TL-15* Rampart.  Reread what I wrote, please.  7 TL's and a few thousand
>years give great liberties to science-fiction, no?  ;-)
>

No, it does not.  Human bandwidth is limited.  No external computer will
improve that unless you invent a mind machine interface that is definately
NOT canon.

>> >I trust u've finally conceded that by TL-15, aerospace fighters are mostly
>> >replaced by grav tanks?  Avionics & airframe make the space fighter an
>> >aerospace fighter.
>> >
>> 
>> No.  I pity the aerospace fighter that comes up against a purpose built
>> atmosphereric or space fighter.
>
>You keep saying that, but I've witnessed so many gaming combats that go
>against it.  I'm gonna have to ask you to put up or shut up.  I'll trust you
>to be honest on your own, since we don't have compatible design systems.
>Using GV2, design the best aerospace or atmospheric fighter you can, and then
>the best space fighter you can.  The original example was TL-9 vs TL-15, but
>whatever u wanna do (I think u're leaning on TL-15 vs TL-15).  Run a combat w/
>someone (who's not a moron).  Post us the designs and tell us the result.


You still do not get it.  I have no intention of doing so and no reason to
do so.  It's a basic point of logic not a caparation of game system
mechanics.  If the game system does not include stealthy cool air breathing
perpulsion systems then you can not even start to make an in game
comparison.  In short if the design system was written for space ships you
are unlikely to ba able to build a competant air fighter and vice versa.  If
you put a bird up against a cat on the ground the cat will win most times.
If the fight takes place at 3000 feet in the air, kitty goes splat!
Neighter is a fair comparison.

If a space war ship beats a air war ship in the air with 'all other things
being equall' then you need to fire the air war ship's designer because he
is a moron!

I'll counter you proposal.  You design a space capable fighter at our
current tech level using any design system you chose and then compare it to
a real jet fighter in use today for the purpose of air combat at say 20,000
feet. See who wins then.  The air fighter.  Why because of the design weight
penalty

Don't you get it.  The plane can have anything the space fighter can.
Lasers, turrets, missles, partical weapons, anything plus special equipment
made just for it's type of combat.  The space fighter can not carry anything
that can not survive in space.  It has to use thrusters even though they
produce a massive heat signature that can be targeted or pay the design
penalty in weight for having two power trains.  If the space fighter has two
power trains to overcome the heat signature the fighter will have more
available weight for armor.  Remember I said 'all otherthings being equal'.
That mean weight, dollars, tech level, pilot training time, exc.

The design limits placed on the space fighter are greater than those placed
on the air plane IN the atmosphere.

It's like comparing a battle rider and a jump capable war ship of the same
tonage.  Of course the battle rider will win most times in a stand up fight
because that is it's natural enviroment.  That why I keep saying it's a no
brainer.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #375
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 31 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 376



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Meson Spinals (was re: Fleet Ops)
Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing
re: max accel
Re: Meson Spinals (was re: Fleet Ops)
re: Fleet Ops
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #375
re: Max Accel
Re: Coming out of the closet
Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)
Re: Global Request for Permission
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: Coming out of the closet
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)
Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
Re: IgNoble etiquette
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Minis for Alternity
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
re: Fleet Ops

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:03:48 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Meson Spinals (was re: Fleet Ops)

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        Just as an aside, my understanding is that meson particles are
formed from the collison of two high-energy PAWs.   Its a byproduct.
        Where the rest of the particle beams go is not mentioned in any
reading I have done, but I highly doubt 100% efficiency.  So, I would
presume that there is a short-range PAWs discharge directly in front of the
collision chamber.
        Underground, who cares.  Just make the weapon enclosure cavern big
enough it doesn't touch a wall.
        In space, who cares.  Just don't let friendlies into the danger space.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This could be critical if you want to fire that meson gun while travelling
hypersonic through a gas giant atmosphere. Did you build your 
starship 200meters longer than you had to so you could enclose not
only the meson spinal mount, but the particle stream area as well?
If standard starship meson guns fire the PAWs into space (creating
the mesons outside the ship), they'll have an open hole in the front
of the ship when they fire - that could be bad when in a GG.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:24:36 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: The whole Suleiman profile/deck layout thing

Jens Maskus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> If you're doing it to
>hull hardpoints only, you REALLY wanna' be as gentle as possible in the
>process of landing so you put minimum extra stress on the hull, regardless
>of how much the hull is strengthened for contact landing like that.  The
>compression oleos (correct term?) take up that extra shock before
>distributing the weight to the hull.

Are Your gracitics so extremly bad to control? Mine are not!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU we can control the gravitics with high precision. We don't have 
near as much control over wind, variations in landing field characteristics,
minor, equipment failures, or any of the other details that could make
the port side of the ship land ten centimeters before the starboard side.
I'll keep the shock absorbers, thank you.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:43:29 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don't you get it.  The plane can have anything the space fighter can.
Lasers, turrets, missles, partical weapons, anything plus special equipment
made just for it's type of combat.  The space fighter can not carry anything
that can not survive in space.  It has to use thrusters even though they
produce a massive heat signature that can be targeted or pay the design
penalty in weight for having two power trains.  If the space fighter has two
power trains to overcome the heat signature the fighter will have more
available weight for armor.  Remember I said 'all otherthings being equal'.
That mean weight, dollars, tech level, pilot training time, exc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are some very, very expensive things a TL15 ship needs for space
combat that work very well for air combat. The atmosphere fighter will
not buy these things, as these items have abilities not useful in
atmosphere. 

You could probably build a capable atmospheric fighter (vs other
atmospheric fighters) for the price of a Rampart's missile load.

How about this - I'll build a light space fighter carrier and it's fifty
space fighters. I'll include construction costs, munitions, and pilot
training costs as if I were building it for both the anti-starship role
and the interface/ground attack role. 

For the MCr I spend, you could probably build a couple airbases
and a thousand atmospheric fighters. Or, you could build a base and a 
couple hundred aerospace fighters - and win. Because your
atmospheric fighters will have no more chance of winning than an
F-16 has a chance of intercepting a YF-12A[1] that's up to altitude
and running at speed.

The supremacy of atmospheric fighters in atmosphere is only obvious from
a 20th century design perspective. The rules try to represent equipment
and design capabilities from quite a bit further along. 

Walt Smith

[1] The YF-12A was the combat version of the SR-71. Just as fast,
it could deploy a batch of missiles (including the option for nuclear-tipped
ones) with no effect on it's altitude or speed capabilities.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:54:38 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Meson Spinals (was re: Fleet Ops)

At 09:03 AM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>        Just as an aside, my understanding is that meson particles are
>formed from the collison of two high-energy PAWs.   Its a byproduct.
>        Where the rest of the particle beams go is not mentioned in any
>reading I have done, but I highly doubt 100% efficiency.  So, I would
>presume that there is a short-range PAWs discharge directly in front of the
>collision chamber.
>        Underground, who cares.  Just make the weapon enclosure cavern big
>enough it doesn't touch a wall.
>        In space, who cares.  Just don't let friendlies into the danger space.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>This could be critical if you want to fire that meson gun while travelling
>hypersonic through a gas giant atmosphere. Did you build your 
>starship 200meters longer than you had to so you could enclose not
>only the meson spinal mount, but the particle stream area as well?
>If standard starship meson guns fire the PAWs into space (creating
>the mesons outside the ship), they'll have an open hole in the front
>of the ship when they fire - that could be bad when in a GG.
>
>Walt Smith
>
        I have always presumed that the maw of a spinal is managed rather
like a torpedo tube with a set of inner and out doors.  When not at action
stations, or refueling, both sets of the doors are closed and the tunnels
actually pressurized to allow maint.  As soon as the ship closes up general
quarters/ 2nd degree of readiness, the tunnels are depressurized and the
inner doors opened.  Battle stations/ 1rst degree of readiness, outter doors
are opened and the weapon begins charging.

        On this premise, when screaming through an atmosphere at Mach 12 on
fuel scooping run, both sets of doors are *closed*.

        Note that there is no canon for this, but it does make some
semblance of sense...  as for Supp 9 with all of those ships showing the
open maw of the weapon.  They are "posing" for the picture, a la Soviet
missile subs who cruised on the surface with all thier missile doors open as
a NATO recon plane over flew them...  "Hi there!  This is what we're
packing...  keep that in mind when you pick a scrap with us..."

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:56:27 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

>In the Full Thrust Traveller playtest rules, we have PA and meson spinals
>firing in a straight line from the axis ofthe ship. This turned into the
>reality that you couldn't hit with a spinl mount at anything over 18"
>because lining up the ship was a complete pain.

>This has made me believe that spinal mounts must have some angled shot
>capability.

Or that TL 12 computers are better at pointing ships than humans on a tabletop?
In a hex game, one would let a meson weapon fire full a whole 30 or 60 degree
arc not to represent its real travel but to represent small repointings of the 
ship that the hex grid can't model. Similar rules could be applied to 
a miniatures game.
On the other hand, the target is really much smaller than your Full Thrust 
miniatures. And a ship that had to aim its spinal mount precisely to the 
nanoradian would severly limit its evasion. I assume meson weapons have
about a tenth of a degree of tracking ability (from deflection of the beam by 
magnetic fields.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:03:48 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #375

Traveller-digest wrote:

> >Does the Deep Meson Site have a longer tube for secondary energy
> >dispersal that a spaceship doesn't use - the spaceship just vents
> >this waste energy out the spinal mount tube? If that's the case, there
> >could be a problem with firing a meson spinal while going hypersonic
> >through a gas giant.
> >
> >Walt Smith
> >
>
>         Just as an aside, my understanding is that meson particles are
> formed from the collison of two high-energy PAWs.   Its a byproduct.
>         Where the rest of the particle beams go is not mentioned in any
> reading I have done, but I highly doubt 100% efficiency.  So, I would
> presume that there is a short-range PAWs discharge directly in front of the
> collision chamber.
>         Underground, who cares.  Just make the weapon enclosure cavern big
> enough it doesn't touch a wall.
>         In space, who cares.  Just don't let friendlies into the danger space.

According to both versions of FF&S I have no.  The meson chamber is a perfect sphere
with the gun touching the walls at both ends.  It rolls around in there somehow.  CG
units are attached to the barrel to keep it from flexing in gravity.

A meson guns efficiency rating is determed soully by it's TL.  Understandable, but
they start out at about 80% efficient.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:06:21 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Max Accel

Charles wrote
>Don't you get it.  The plane can have anything the space fighter can.
When you say "plane", are you still picturing something supported by 
aerodynamic lift? In that case, both of them will still get eaten for
breakfast by a grav tanks, which can afford to carry a lot more armour,
since CG thrust lets you lift a lot more weight per unit volume than
wings do.

>If the game system does not include stealthy cool air breathing
>perpulsion systems 
it's remarkably hard to imagine an airbreathing propulsion system 
that (a) produces thrust-to-weight even remotely comparable to a
thruster plate (6G!), (b) has a cool enough exhaust not to have
some significant IR signature, (c) uses so little power that its
generators don't have an IR signature, and (d) works up to a 
decent altitude. (Note that the space fighter's ability to
operate up to arbitrary altitudes and climb extremely fast is a 
considerable advantage - it can choose when and where to fight.)

>I'll counter you proposal.  You design a space capable fighter at our
>current tech level using any design system you chose and then compare it to
>a real jet fighter in use today for the purpose of air combat at say 20,000
>feet. See who wins then.  The air fighter.  Why because of the design weight
This is a silly suggestion; at current TLs, rocket engines have such high
fuel consumption that an orbital-capable rocket has to be all fuel and
nothing else. The TL balance will change at Traveller tech levels.

This isn't to say that a specialized planetary-environment
vehicle won't have some advantages - but by high TL's they'll
be minor. gravitic thrust is just so efficient that it's very
hard to beat - space capability doesn't actually inflict much
penalty. All else being equal the "plane" might have a very
minor advantage - but to even be competetive the "plane" probably
has CG or T-plate thrust and an armoured hull and looks a lot
like a spacecraft, except for having bigger wings and a different
uniform for the pilot. It's kind of like having a debate about which
makes a better ground combat vehicle - a Corvette or a Ford Explorer,
with arguments about whether the Ford Explorer's off-road design will
hurt it in a combat on a freeway. At high TLs spacecraft and 
aircraft blur together.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:57:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Coming out of the closet

At 06:39 PM 3/31/99 +1000, you wrote:
>I have a small confession to make, and those of you who know me may be
>surprised. I have tried to hide it and deny it. I considered joining a
>counseling group so that I could workshop my way through it, but it just has
>not worked.   I also subscribe to one of the Alternity lists.

You have to renounce your sinful ways!!!  Turn to the One True Game, and
you'll be freed from your evil ways!!  Remember, "there is no game but
Traveller, and High Guard is it's product."

(Sorry, but I have to deal with posts like this on
alt.politics.homosexuality all the time from zealots.)

>But while I was there I discovered TSR/WoTC will soon be releasing a series
>of miniatures (prob. 25mm scale). Obviously not all of them will be suitable
>for Traveller, but some might be.

Coolness!  I'll be looking for them.  
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:01:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)

At 04:47 PM 3/30/99 -0500, Kurt wrote:

>I remember reading a book by Michael McCollum, Clouds of Saturn, which
>dealt with the colonization of Saturn using sealed domed cities under giant
>balloons.  They moved with the eddys and currents of the atmosphere and
>were at an altitude where a minimum need of heating and cooling was needed.

Quick plug:  _Saturn Rukh_ by Dr. Robert Forward is a real fun look at TL-8
exploration of a GG's atmosphere.  As always, very interesting lifeforms
are involved.

- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:06:24
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Global Request for Permission

At 11:39 PM 3/30/99 GMT, you wrote:
>A number of people have posted ship spec sheets and descriptions
>to the list.  I would appreciate hearing from those people; I
>would like permission to leach them from the list, both past and
>future, and include them in the Freelance Traveller Shipyard.

In general, I expect that anything I post to the list is free to be used by
the list members.  The only exeption is use in a product that will be sold
for profit.  That requires a seperate inquiry.

I ask that I get proper credit, and that a link be provided to the Gridlore
Technologies site (http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gridlore.html).  Also, a
nod to either Andy Akins for the ship designs, or if you post any weapons I
put on the list, to Greg Porter for 3G3.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:54:47 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

In message <034c01be7a65$e4a7a470$118f3e86@wv.tek.com>, Douglas Glatz
<douglas@teleport.COM> writes
>
>What is the byproduct of a fusion reaction?  Helium?  How is it removed from
>RW reactors?  How will it be removed when a self-sustaining reaction is
>started?  What exactly is plasma?
>
>How would the exhaust of a fusion reactor be removed from a starship
>reactor, or from the starship itself, or would the reactor just be vented to
>vacuum?

IIRC the entire energy needs of the UK for a year could be met by fusing
2 grammes of hydrogen into helium.  2 grammes of helium has a volume of
about 12 litres at normal pressure and room temperature.
- -- 
Martin H


Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 31 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 377



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: Coming out of the closet
Global Permisson request
Naval architecture terminology
re: Fleet Ops
re: max accel
re: Max Accel
re: Fleet Ops
World Builder Deluxe V4.0
re: Fleet Ops
re: max accel
Re: Naval architecture terminology
Re: Fleet Ops
ObTraveller
Re: ObTraveller
Re: Naval architecture terminology
re: Fleet Ops
Re: Coming out of the closet
Re: Naval architecture terminology
re: max accel
New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:36:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

Martin Hardgrave writes:

> IIRC the entire energy needs of the UK for a year could be met by fusing
> 2 grammes of hydrogen into helium.  2 grammes of helium has a volume of
> about 12 litres at normal pressure and room temperature.

Hm...2 grams of hydrogen fused yields about 0.01 grams of energy, or about
9e+11 joules, or 2.5e+5 kilowatt-hours.  As I recall typical first-world power
requirements are around 100 watts/person (might be higher), so 2 grams of
hydrogen will probably power london for less than an hour.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:55:20 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Coming out of the closet

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
: (Sorry, but I have to deal with posts like this on
: alt.politics.homosexuality all the time from zealots.)

Wow.  I didn't know that it was a political party.  That explains a lot.


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:08:33 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Global Permisson request

Let me make a plug for the Traveller Gearhead Webring.
There are over 30 sites, most with ship designs.
The URL is in the sig.
(Actually it's my gearhead site, but the ring code is there.)

Jeff Zeitlin wrote: 
> 
> A number of people have posted ship spec sheets and descriptions 
> to the list. I would appreciate hearing from those people; I 
> would like permission to leach them from the list, both past and 
> future, and include them in the Freelance Traveller Shipyard. 
> -- 
> Jeff Zeitlin 
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
travhead@geocities.com -- Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/  
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:09:03 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Naval architecture terminology

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> >What a show-stopper _that_ would be!  (Wouldn't it be "head", though,
> >rather than "latrine"?)
> 
> I'm a doggie.  So sue me.  I walk on floors, not decks, and am surronded by
> walls, not bulkheads.
> 
> But you're right.

It reminds me of an evening having drinks with two good friends from
high school some years ago.  Steve was probably a captain in the Army
then and Richard was about the same grade in the Navy (LtSG, I guess). 
After a while, Richard got up and said, "I'm going to the toity-toity." 
Steve responded, "That must be navy talk for bathroom."  I guess you had
to be there; it was hilariously funny some 15 years ago.  In the middle
of the night.  After vodka shots.

Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?), most deckplans
refer to "freshers", although I've seen some (but can't remember who
published them, nor of what ships) that say "head".  What's the
consensus on this important item of nomenclature?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:22:32 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 07:02 PM 3/30/99 EST, you wrote:
>
>>>>>>>My rules will allow for the difference between ships that are scooping
>>fuel and ships that aren't, but the major effects of a gas giant will be to
>>remove just about every advantage a big ship has over a little one.
>>This will make little SDB's a major threat in the depths of a gas giant.<<<<<
>
>Why wouldn't the various Traveller navies use ships dedicated to the task of
>ramscooping and and fuelling(tankers) the task force? Then the ships awaiting
>fuel could stand 'highguard' and be combat ready 'till fuelling ops are
>complete...
>The US Navy has  oilers(AOR"s) and other provisioning & repair  ships...
>Just another thought as I relearn the various ins&outs...
>
>

I stand here dumb founded.  Such an obvious solution to such and obvious
problem.  As far as I know there are no ships in canon designed for this
purpose.  One cruiser sized ship designed just for Gas Gaint diving could
feed a lot of tankers in short order.  The tankers could then refuel the
fleet while the diver gets more go juice.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:22:43 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 09:43 AM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Don't you get it.  The plane can have anything the space fighter can.
>Lasers, turrets, missles, partical weapons, anything plus special equipment
>made just for it's type of combat.  The space fighter can not carry anything
>that can not survive in space.  It has to use thrusters even though they
>produce a massive heat signature that can be targeted or pay the design
>penalty in weight for having two power trains.  If the space fighter has two
>power trains to overcome the heat signature the fighter will have more
>available weight for armor.  Remember I said 'all otherthings being equal'.
>That mean weight, dollars, tech level, pilot training time, exc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>There are some very, very expensive things a TL15 ship needs for space
>combat that work very well for air combat. The atmosphere fighter will
>not buy these things, as these items have abilities not useful in
>atmosphere. 
>
>You could probably build a capable atmospheric fighter (vs other
>atmospheric fighters) for the price of a Rampart's missile load.
>
>How about this - I'll build a light space fighter carrier and it's fifty
>space fighters. I'll include construction costs, munitions, and pilot
>training costs as if I were building it for both the anti-starship role
>and the interface/ground attack role. 
>
>For the MCr I spend, you could probably build a couple airbases
>and a thousand atmospheric fighters. Or, you could build a base and a 
>couple hundred aerospace fighters - and win. Because your
>atmospheric fighters will have no more chance of winning than an
>F-16 has a chance of intercepting a YF-12A[1] that's up to altitude
>and running at speed.
>
>The supremacy of atmospheric fighters in atmosphere is only obvious from
>a 20th century design perspective. The rules try to represent equipment
>and design capabilities from quite a bit further along. 
>
>Walt Smith
>

I'd build laser armed stealth planes with missle bays.  Good for air combat
and anti space craft work.  My planes are hard to see, the space ship are
easy to see during interface.  Fry them crispy and send the missles out NOE
after the one you miss.  Add some deep meson sites payed for with less money
than you spent on jump drives to get here and thing get interesting.

>[1] The YF-12A was the combat version of the SR-71. Just as fast,
>it could deploy a batch of missiles (including the option for nuclear-tipped
>ones) with no effect on it's altitude or speed capabilities.
>

There was the Arrora (spelling) the largest transonic bomber ever built.
Two prototypes were built but one crashed after sucking a fighter into it's
wing tip turbulence.  It was a decendent to the SR71 but not the combat
version.  That may be what you are thinking of.

The preposed SR71 combat variant was never built.  To little war load for
the cost I think.  Sorry, I do not have the book with the information here
at work with me.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:22:54 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Max Accel

At 07:06 AM 3/31/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Charles wrote
>>Don't you get it.  The plane can have anything the space fighter can.
>When you say "plane", are you still picturing something supported by 
>aerodynamic lift? In that case, both of them will still get eaten for
>breakfast by a grav tanks, which can afford to carry a lot more armour,
>since CG thrust lets you lift a lot more weight per unit volume than
>wings do.
>
>>If the game system does not include stealthy cool air breathing
>>perpulsion systems 
>it's remarkably hard to imagine an airbreathing propulsion system 
>that (a) produces thrust-to-weight even remotely comparable to a
>thruster plate (6G!), (b) has a cool enough exhaust not to have

Who needs 6G when you are laser armed?  Speed is nearly meaningless when
your weapons work at the speed of light and the range is short.

>some significant IR signature, (c) uses so little power that its
>generators don't have an IR signature, and (d) works up to a 
>decent altitude. (Note that the space fighter's ability to
>operate up to arbitrary altitudes and climb extremely fast is a 
>considerable advantage - it can choose when and where to fight.)
>

No you can't.  I see you, I shoot you.  Range is LOS.  I'd add some smart
air breathing surface skimming missles with Det-laser warheads for over the
horison work and CG to increase dwell time and allow for vtol without the
normal weight penalties for vtol.  You have the A-10 from hell.  Massive war
load, Stealth to stay out of your percieved LOS, vtol, LOS light speed guns,
and fight while in difilade capable.  Toss in some remote sensor modules for
early warning and FO capacity and you have a squadron killer.

You can not pick this craft up on passive sensors beyond vissual range.  If
you go active it hits you with HARM targeted det-lasers.  If you stay on
pasive sensors He locks on to you with his remotes and can still launch from
a valley floor and move away out of you LOS while the missles close with
you.  If you get LOS with him he has just as good a chance to kill you as
you have him.

>>I'll counter you proposal.  You design a space capable fighter at our
>>current tech level using any design system you chose and then compare it to
>>a real jet fighter in use today for the purpose of air combat at say 20,000
>>feet. See who wins then.  The air fighter.  Why because of the design weight
>This is a silly suggestion; at current TLs, rocket engines have such high
>fuel consumption that an orbital-capable rocket has to be all fuel and
>nothing else. The TL balance will change at Traveller tech levels.
>
>This isn't to say that a specialized planetary-environment
>vehicle won't have some advantages - but by high TL's they'll
>be minor. gravitic thrust is just so efficient that it's very
>hard to beat - space capability doesn't actually inflict much

And useless in a laser dual at 20 miles.

>penalty. All else being equal the "plane" might have a very
>minor advantage - but to even be competetive the "plane" probably
>has CG or T-plate thrust and an armoured hull and looks a lot
>like a spacecraft, except for having bigger wings and a different

Frankly I think they will be more like light tanks that fly and fight from
hidden and prepare position when posible.

>uniform for the pilot. It's kind of like having a debate about which
>makes a better ground combat vehicle - a Corvette or a Ford Explorer,
>with arguments about whether the Ford Explorer's off-road design will
>hurt it in a combat on a freeway. At high TLs spacecraft and 
>aircraft blur together.
>

True for civilian vehicles but when in combat you want every edge you can
get.  Whay do you think we spend 1M per tomahawk when an old B52 has a
better range, warload, and is reuseable?  Because of lives and the value we
place on them.  Most militaries realise that trained personell are their
scariest resource and take step to protect them.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:36:36 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 06:22 PM 3/31/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>Why wouldn't the various Traveller navies use ships dedicated to the task of
>>ramscooping and and fuelling(tankers) the task force? Then the ships awaiting
>>fuel could stand 'highguard' and be combat ready 'till fuelling ops are
>>complete...
>>The US Navy has  oilers(AOR"s) and other provisioning & repair  ships...
>>Just another thought as I relearn the various ins&outs...
>>
>>
>
>I stand here dumb founded.  Such an obvious solution to such and obvious
>problem.  As far as I know there are no ships in canon designed for this
>purpose.  One cruiser sized ship designed just for Gas Gaint diving could
>feed a lot of tankers in short order.  The tankers could then refuel the
>fleet while the diver gets more go juice.
>
>Charles L.
>

        The phrase "all the eggs in one basket" comes to mind.  That ship
suddenly becomes a monsterously high-value target worth loosing a BB to
kill...  trash it and the Other Side is now suffering a fuel crisis.
        If you have lots of them, that just means that it is now a better
deal to loose a BB trashing a squadron of these.  Surround it with escorts,
and now they are willing to make a fleet action out of it.
        In short, to me, that design concept reeks of "sh!t magnet".  =)

        And divinity help that "Diver" ship if it gets found by SDB's in the
GG...  for the very reason that you didn't want to send your captial ships
in there....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:30:05 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe V4.0

V4.0 of my World Builder Deluxe software is now available. It has a number
of significant improvements over V3.0, namely:-

1) System Generation - This will generate the contents of a Star System then
generate WBH World Details for each planetary body in orbit.

2) Sector Wide System Generation - This takes Item 1) one step further. It
will generate the contents of every Star System in a Sector then generate
WBH World Details for every planetary body in orbit in each system.

3) Introduction of my Extended UWP and USP file formats.

4) The ability to output World Details in HTML file format.

5) Calculation of Imperial Squadron data for eligible worlds.

6) Generation of Random Systems.

7) Generation of Random Sectors.

8) Conversion to WBS file format from SEC and UWP file formats.

9) Conversion to SEC nd UWP file formats from WBS file format.

10) Options are saved on exit.

The software can be downloaded from the following location:-

http://www.cozmos-cosmos.com/~sferris/Traveller_World_Builder_Deluxe.zip

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:43:29 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 12:36 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Walt,
>   you mentioned 5FW as an source for info with regards to attacking worlds
etc..
>another good source is Invasion Earth. where the underground meson guns
are hard to take out and cause the attacking fleet to stand off until they
are found. kind of like fighting an enemy where he knows where you are, but
you only know what direction he may be in.
>also if a world or GG has moons in close orbit then they can have the meson
sites as well and attack from behind.
>
>
>>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>
>
>>Atmosphere with serious attitude!
> Agreed
>
>>Ok, so maybe skimming is like storm riding a class 5 hurricane and then
>>some.  The traveller equivalent of surfing a Tidal wave or white water
>>rafting.  Any ship with lest than a stream lined hull is in for a beating
>>(AHL was partial streamlined emergence refueling only).
>
>>When you go gas diving you have to 'lock everything down' to keep it
>>attached. 
>OK  Agreed
>
>>Also missile life span is likely to be short and guidance questionable.
>
>Maybe. I think on it.
>
>>So let look at AHL with these assumptions.
>>....It is already struggling with it's limited streamlining. 
>
>and gets hit by a nuke (or ten) while still in the atmosphere. Combined
with previous combat damage and extreme maneuvering, this may have caused
enough over pressure/ gforces to snap the hull in half.
> 
>This is my take on it. Nukes hitting you in the vacuum of space are one
thing...
>nukes hitting you in an atmosphere are another.
>

You have that nasty thing call a pressure wave not to mention the fireball
of the supper heated atmosphere trying it's best to get anywhere in one heck
of a hurry.

A ship could survive the radiation flash only to be roled like a beach ball
accross the tarmack by 500 mph winds.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:03:52 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 06:22 PM 3/31/99 +0000, you wrote:

>There was the Arrora (spelling) the largest transonic bomber ever built.
>Two prototypes were built but one crashed after sucking a fighter into it's
>wing tip turbulence.  It was a decendent to the SR71 but not the combat
>version.  That may be what you are thinking of.

It was the XB-70 Valkarie (sp?) bomber produced by North American Aviation.
 The last remaining example is on static display at Wright-Patterson AFB.
It is extremely humbling to walk under it and realize that this huge
aircraft was to cruise at Mach 3.

>The preposed SR71 combat variant was never built.  To little war load for
>the cost I think.  Sorry, I do not have the book with the information here
>at work with me.

The YF-12A was built.  Three examples IIRC.  They carried the missiles in
individual bays and were to provide a high speed, high altitude defense for
CONUS.  I seem to remember that they are either in storage or on static
display.


Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:58:56 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Naval architecture terminology

There are bathrooms on startships? ...and I've been waiting all week. 

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)  

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>

>Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?), most deckplans
>refer to "freshers", although I've seen some (but can't remember who
>published them, nor of what ships) that say "head".  What's the
>consensus on this important item of nomenclature?
>
>--Glenn
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:07:52 EST
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

>>>> Surround it with escorts,
and now they are willing to make a fleet action out of it.
        In short, to me, that design concept reeks of "sh!t magnet".  =)<<<<

That's true only if the rest of your fleet isn't keeping the bad guys
busy...Obviously there would have to be a tactical neccessity for using tanker
sqd's...

I, personaly, wouldn't use them unless I thought I could deffend them. 
In a b/cr limited senario a player simply might not have the resourses for
them. That's why I mentioned an opened ended campaigne; in the beginning of a
war resourses *are* limited but as the campaigne proceeds more resourse points
become available- at least for 1 side...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:53:19 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: ObTraveller

> >Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?)

Gotta add myself to this question. What DOES "ObTraveller" mean?

And HOW DO you pronounce "Spofulam"?!?

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:14:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: ObTraveller

Brannon W. Boren wrote:
> 
> > >Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?)
> 
> Gotta add myself to this question. What DOES "ObTraveller" mean?
> 
> And HOW DO you pronounce "Spofulam"?!?
> 

_Ob_ligatory _Traveller_ reference. A mantra to ward off the "That's not
ON TOPIC!!!" goons fortunateky far, far rarer in this venue than in
others 

(I'm on another mailing list where some prissy tightpants sort has
gotten their panties in a bunch because someone used foul language like
f$@#. No, not a word _represented_ by 'f$@#'...the actual character
string: f$@#. A flame war has ensued. Oy!)

Word lesson for the day:

Spo-fu-lam Spo as in Spot, fu as in Kung, lam as in 'on the', running
from Ditzie and her toys.

At least that's how _I_ pronounce it. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:29:22 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Naval architecture terminology

>Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?), most deckplans
>refer to "freshers", although I've seen some (but can't remember who
>published them, nor of what ships) that say "head".  What's the
>consensus on this important item of nomenclature?

"fresher"  is a slang term probably derived from "refresher" that refers to a
combination cleaning and grooming system, usually using non-water means of
cleansing  (ultrasonics,  compressed air ), and depilatory creams, sometimes
having the abilitfy to provide anti-radiation foams,  that might look a bit
like a cubicle shower, based on the few descriptions that have appeared in SF

High tech vanity versions sometimes include hair and skin colouring systems,
capable of producing complicated fractal patterns in either long-term or
short-term treatments, and removing the same,

A few rare examples have even provided minor body sculpting abilities, though
they tend to be owned by stage and espionage professionals

The term was probably first used by someone like Heinlien in his juveniles,
but it is _old_ in SF terms.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:24:28 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Fleet Ops

At 02:36 PM 3/31/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 06:22 PM 3/31/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>>Why wouldn't the various Traveller navies use ships dedicated to the task of
>>>ramscooping and and fuelling(tankers) the task force? Then the ships awaiting
>>>fuel could stand 'highguard' and be combat ready 'till fuelling ops are
>>>complete...
>>>The US Navy has  oilers(AOR"s) and other provisioning & repair  ships...
>>>Just another thought as I relearn the various ins&outs...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I stand here dumb founded.  Such an obvious solution to such and obvious
>>problem.  As far as I know there are no ships in canon designed for this
>>purpose.  One cruiser sized ship designed just for Gas Gaint diving could
>>feed a lot of tankers in short order.  The tankers could then refuel the
>>fleet while the diver gets more go juice.
>>
>>Charles L.
>>
>
>        The phrase "all the eggs in one basket" comes to mind.  That ship
>suddenly becomes a monsterously high-value target worth loosing a BB to
>kill...  trash it and the Other Side is now suffering a fuel crisis.
>        If you have lots of them, that just means that it is now a better
>deal to loose a BB trashing a squadron of these.  Surround it with escorts,
>and now they are willing to make a fleet action out of it.
>        In short, to me, that design concept reeks of "sh!t magnet".  =)
>
>        And divinity help that "Diver" ship if it gets found by SDB's in the
>GG...  for the very reason that you didn't want to send your captial ships
>in there....
>

Good points all.  Perhaps a purpose build diver ship for everyday use to
save wear and tear on the other ships and cut fueling times.  That way if
you lost it you could still refuel using convetional means.  It could also
me make less vunerable and better at defending itself than a fuel shuttle.
Or build this function into the escorts.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:20:22
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Coming out of the closet

At 12:55 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
>: (Sorry, but I have to deal with posts like this on
>: alt.politics.homosexuality all the time from zealots.)
>
>Wow.  I didn't know that it was a political party.  That explains a lot.

Girl, *everything* is a party!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:23:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Naval architecture terminology

At 10:09 AM 3/31/99 -0800, you wrote:

>Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?)

Relating to Traveller.  Sorry.  It's short for "obligitory Traveller
connection/reference/desperate attempt to get back on topic."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:24:38 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 02:03 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:22 PM 3/31/99 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>There was the Arrora (spelling) the largest transonic bomber ever built.
>>Two prototypes were built but one crashed after sucking a fighter into it's
>>wing tip turbulence.  It was a decendent to the SR71 but not the combat
>>version.  That may be what you are thinking of.
>
>It was the XB-70 Valkarie (sp?) bomber produced by North American Aviation.

That's it!  Boy am I thick today.

> The last remaining example is on static display at Wright-Patterson AFB.
>It is extremely humbling to walk under it and realize that this huge
>aircraft was to cruise at Mach 3.
>
>>The preposed SR71 combat variant was never built.  To little war load for
>>the cost I think.  Sorry, I do not have the book with the information here
>>at work with me.
>
>The YF-12A was built.  Three examples IIRC.  They carried the missiles in
>individual bays and were to provide a high speed, high altitude defense for
>CONUS.  I seem to remember that they are either in storage or on static
>display.
>

That's news to me.  What did they do to fit missles into that thing?  There
is not a lot of waste space and anything on the outside would cause problems
for the aerodynamic or get burned of due to friction.


Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:18:13
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

I believe I may have found a solution for the invulnerable battledress
problem in GURPS: Traveller.  The Type-214 is a very heavy gauss weapon
that is designed to fire the 20mm Californium round mention in _Star Mercs_
page 66.

Type-214 Heavy Gauss Weapon
Cal   Dam   SS  Acc  1/2D   Max   Weight  Rof  Shots STR  Rcl  Cost   TL
2cm  6d6x5  17  23   9200  1E+05  137.7lb  6   20x2   23  -9  $28550  10

Using the basic round, the weapon does an average of 105 points of damage.
Using the californium rounds, the average damage is 8,400 points.  Since
there is a great chance that the round won't work properly, the damages for
fizzles are 2100 points and 840 points for quarter and one-tenth damage.

The only handwave required for these weapons is to allow small damper boxes
holding perhaps two or three magazines worth of Ca ammo.  The listing
states that a damper box holds three tons of ammo, so I can't imagine a
scaled down version capable of holding 20-60 rounds to be much of a
hindrance to a battledressed Marine with a STR of 70+!

Also, I've designed a "beehive" round, consisting of 60 5x50mm steel darts.
 Each of these darts does 10d6-1.  I'm working on HE rounds as well.

The weapon has dual magazines, so that a Marine could have one beehive and
one nuke magazine loaded.  If you like, reduce the nuke magazine size to
five rounds, and say that the extra mass is a small damper box.   This
weapon would probably incorporate a CG generator to offset weight.

Designed using 3G3



- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #377
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 31 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 378



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
Re: Garbage
Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage
Type TI / TJ scan needed
re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
re: max accel
Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: max accel
Re: 10/100 Diameters
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: ObTrav

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:12:30 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

> >How did I KNOW you were going to say that?  LOL.  Unfortunately, I doubt
> >you've designed a TL-15 set.  Nor even a TL-10 set.  If you have, I'd like
to
> >help underwrite your R&D and we can all get rich.  :-)
> >
> 
> HA!  I wish it was that easy.  What I am saying is that there are curtain
> physical limits that are very unlikely to change regardless of tech level
> unless of course we 'discover' some new elements with some very interesting

The keyword right there is "unless."  Alot can happen in 3000+ years.  Even
the hundred till 2100.  For all your experience and knowledge of TL-8
(possibly TL-9) electronics and such, it means precisely squat for the
discussion at hand.  Unless you find a secret journal of Nostradamus or take a
ride in your time travelling delorean, what you say only applies to today.
You haven't designed TL-15 nor TL-12 electronics sets.

> properties or develope a device with capabilities like those of Star Treks
> transporters of holodecks.  A device that can freely convert any matter into
> any energy and back.  With THAT you could have your omni sensor/transciever.

Maybe it's just another space opera thingamajig, maybe you're just full of
hooey.  It's been part of Traveller for a long time and it's not going away.
What goes on in YTU, I frankly don't really care as we're not talking about
YTU, but the OTU.  Get it?

> >That self reconfigurable nanotech might be how it all works.  ;-)
Remember,
> >we're talking about TL-15 (a Rampart).  Now, canon says EMS sensors are 
> >TL10.  That's the 22nd century IIRC.  Come back in a hundred years and tell
me
> >that again.  lol
>
> 
> Nanotech is not part of canon.  If it were Traveller's back ground would be

So YOU say.  It's not mentioned but that doesn't mean there isn't room for it
as long as it doesn't live up to the claims of sci-fi authors (IMTU, this is
precisely the case).   When you get ownership of the Traveller copyright, I'll
put more weight into your words (well... probably not). 

> very different.  The laws of cause and effect are immuteable.  If nonotech
> is available on very limited scale then a variable sensor system would be
> posible but that would also mean that the sensor could only operate in one
> band at a time and there would be a delay in band change.

I don't have any problem with that.  Neither does HG or BL w/ 20-30 minute
turns.

Just what are the GURPSy sensors (PESA and AESA) capable of, especially in
relation to Traveller sensors?  What bands to they cover and what TL's do they
become available at?

> I do not have SoM and you are talking about a very different rampart that I
> have access to.  6 tons of sensors!  What does that rampart weight?

The Rampart masses 186.52 tonnes in BL.  So are the dimensions mentioned
acceptable to you, for the capabilities present?  

Nice how you skipped all the other points.  The specifics mentioned in the SoM
are irrelevant.  The point is that it's canon for space sensors to be
effective inside the atmosphere and for the atmosphere/ground sensors to be
effective in space.  That they're the exact same systems and operating on the
same principles (whatever they are) must just be a happy coinicidence.

> >> Sorry, no amount of computer assistance can improve an unaugmented 
> >>human's data bandwidth.  It can only prioritize that data along preset
lines.  Ask
> >> the airforce about it.  They have been fighting this problem for 20+
years.
> >
> >The AF is TL-8.  TL-7 20 years ago.  Like I said, we're talking about a
> >*TL-15* Rampart.  Reread what I wrote, please.  7 TL's and a few thousand
> >years give great liberties to science-fiction, no?  ;-)
> >
> 
> No, it does not.  Human bandwidth is limited.  No external computer will
> improve that unless you invent a mind machine interface that is definately
> NOT canon.

First read your top quote.   Then read my response.  The things you bring up
are laughably ludicrous.  Who cares what the TL-8 air force is up to when
we're talking about tech and people thousands of years further along the
timeline?  Especially in light that we're talking about a ***TL-15***
airframed space fighter!   Unless u're changing the frame of the discussion
again?

And who says such a mind machine interface isn't canon, anyways?  There are
these things called "neural jacks" in the cybernetics chapter in FF&S.

> >You keep saying that, but I've witnessed so many gaming combats that go
> >against it.  I'm gonna have to ask you to put up or shut up.  I'll trust
you
> >to be honest on your own, since we don't have compatible design systems.
> >Using GV2, design the best aerospace or atmospheric fighter you can, and
then
> >the best space fighter you can.  The original example was TL-9 vs TL-15,
but
> >whatever u wanna do (I think u're leaning on TL-15 vs TL-15).  Run a combat
w/
> >someone (who's not a moron).  Post us the designs and tell us the result.
> 
> 
> You still do not get it.  I have no intention of doing so and no reason to
> do so.  It's a basic point of logic not a caparation of game system
> mechanics.  If the game system does not include stealthy cool air breathing

All I've asked you to do is to put up or shut up, Charles.

I'm not comparing game system mechanics (given the same craft parameters,
you're likely to see the same thing in every system, though... from Star Wars
to GURPS to TNE to FUDGE to Alternity).  I've run the combats and seen the
results quite a few times (particularly TL-9 aircraft vs TL-12 Wildbat space
fighters).  GURPS has the veneer of being far closer to TNE than any set of
Traveller, so I'd expect similar (not identical) results.  You're not afraid
to see your ludicrous assumptions shattered, are you?

> perpulsion systems then you can not even start to make an in game
> comparison.  In short if the design system was written for space ships you
> are unlikely to ba able to build a competant air fighter and vice versa.  If

Well, it just happens that I was using the design system for aircraft and the
designs system for spacecraft that are both in FF&S.  Imagine that.  LOL.  

> If a space war ship beats a air war ship in the air with 'all other things
> being equall' then you need to fire the air war ship's designer because he
> is a moron!

It's seems clear you've never run such a combat, nor are willing to.  Nor
designed either a space fighter nor atmosphere fighter, nor are willing to.
Very interesting.  
In short, you're only following your own conception of "logic" to an absurd
conclusion.  

> I'll counter you proposal.  You design a space capable fighter at our
> current tech level using any design system you chose and then compare it to
> a real jet fighter in use today for the purpose of air combat at say 20,000
> feet. See who wins then.  The air fighter.  Why because of the design weight
> penalty

LOL.  At our current tech level?  Where did that come from?  We're talking
about a TL-15 space fighter vs TL-9 air fighter (or TL-15 vs TL-15, as u
altered it to).  Where did TL-8 come into the picture?  lol.  Or are you
trying to change the frame of the discussion again?  Or is it time for your
pill?  I've seen TL-9 air vs TL-12 space numerous times.  TL-15 vs TL-9 will
be even more lopsided.

> Don't you get it.  The plane can have anything the space fighter can.
> Lasers, turrets, missles, partical weapons, anything plus special equipment
<snip>

It's becoming more and more apparent you've never designed what u're talking
about.  Try it some time, you might be surprised.  Then you'll have some frame
of knowledge that we can continue this discussion.  Until then, please stop
embarassing yourself.

> It's like comparing a battle rider and a jump capable war ship of the same
> tonage.  Of course the battle rider will win most times in a stand up fight
> because that is it's natural enviroment.  That why I keep saying it's a no
> brainer.

Not an appropriate analogy, but you usually come from left field, so what the
hey, right?  If that discussion went anything like this one, you'd start
talking about TL-8 battle riders and SDI and maybe throw in an analogy
involving a cat, a bird, and the local dog.  Then maybe a comment about
'nonotech' capabilities (and their absence in the OTU) and how you lack the
crucial supplement needed to realize what we're talking about.

The battle rider will win because it has weapons and armor and screens taking
up the space of the jump drives and jump drive fuel tankage.  That's it.  It's
very simple really.  Has nothing to do with environment.  Both are dueling in
space, according to space combat rules (whichever u happen to be using).  But
I doubt u've designed either of these, either, so nevermind.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:12:38 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

> >I'm not invoking any "new theories."  *Nothing* says every last drop of j-
fuel
> >is consumed at the instant of jump, is there?
> 
> Well, the idea that you can use drop tanks, but only for part
> of your fuel requirements _is_ new.  Also, there are other
> sources where the use of fuel before jump is described, Anna
> Novic (or whatever, I don't remember the name exactly),
> jump projectors, etc. all indicate this.

Annic Nova was an unusual case, wasn't it?  Jump projectors are more advanced
tech so have another possible handwave around.

> Also, Hans' point is a relevant one.  If the Gazelle uses
> the fuel in the
> drop tanks (leaving full internal tanks), drops them and jumps,
> and then arrives with full internal tanks, it couldn't have
> used any fuel during jump.

That's not how it works, though.  By CT standards, if the Gazelle keeps its
drop tanks, it can do Jump 4, completely draining all tankage (drop tank and
internal).  If drop tanks are dropped before jump, J-5 and everything is gone
(drop tanks consumed before drop?  Or internal consumed and/or transferred to
the J-drive and drop tankage transfered to internal?)  No drop tanks at all?
J2, all internal tankage.  
I don't know of anything saying if less than max jump is undertaken.  I
presume there might be something in Supp 7,but from Douglas' post a couple
days back, I doubt it.

Do you see what that means?  NOTHING says exactly what fuel goes to where.
Alot of people have come to conclusions for their own TUs, but to say drop
tanks are flawed in concept is in error w/o an 'improper' conception of how
jump is supposed to work (officially, which was left vague).

> >  Drop tanks exist in every
> >version of Traveller.  They're not just going to go away.
> 
> Well, first of all, they don't exist in GT (where I think they

LOL.  We don't want to do *that* debate again, do we?  Aaaah, the openings
people leave...  :-)

> should be a strictly optional rule) or in T5 (which isn't out

If they're "official" what does that impact your campaign?  

> yet).  As the MT, CT, and TNE, these are, since they aren't
> being published, by definition personal traveller universes.

Personal TUs?  T5 is just a fantasy right now.  And G:T is, by self-
proclamation, "Alternate."  Canon has nothing to do with current status of
publication or noone would even consider nor care what happened in an obscure
adventure or "supplement" published over 20 years ago, would they?

> >Nope.  According to my MT Ref's Manual, Dismountable tanks are "fixed and
> >semi- permament" and (the exterior ones) require two weeks to be
dismounted.
> >Drop tanks are instant drop.
> 
> That makes even less sense.  You can explosively blow a tank
> away in the minutes before jumping, but you if you want to b
> olt it you need 2 weeks???

LOL.  Don't tell me about it.  I didn't write MT!  I'm still glad theyr'e gone
from TNE, though.  ;-)  I would advise checking what dismountable tanks are,
though, as you don't seem to have drawn an accurate recollection on them.  I
had to look in my MT Ref's to find out as they're not in FF&S.  

> Mostly the former, even if you arbitrarily say they can only provide
> some fraction of the fuel (which seem hokey to me) you will still
> have every ship that can using them.  Any traffic along a
> major trade route (important worlds and all the one that lie
> between them) should be dominated by a system of jump tanks
> (whether they are ships that use them to replace all or 1/2
> their fuel).

Why should that be wrong if the things are discovered at TL-15?  I presume you
game in the Spinward Marches, a backwater.  They won't come in common usage
for a long time in the toolies.  If u're running a campaign in the Core
(anyone??), then u might have problems.  Given the date of the TNS entry, I'd
say before 1120 or so, they're only gonna be seen amongst the Imperial
military and the megacorp bulk freighters.  Neither of these should impact
YTU, necessarily.  Does tech stand still in YTU?  A stagnant lack of
technological development and/or innovation?  Why shouldn't drop tank ships
come to dominate Imperial space by 1200 (assuming the Rebellion, Hard Times,
and Collapse didn't wreck said Imperial space)?  :-)  What's wrong w/ things
developing and growing and changing, just like Real Life (tm)?  Especially if
it's not going to do anything to your campaign, even over the long term, as
campaigns go? 

> As to your "correcting" the theory, I don't really see it as
> solving the problems (unless you were talking about some that
> I missed).

If your J-theory doesn't say everything is instantly consumed (which I don't
find substantiated by canon, though I don't have 20 years of presumption
weighing in), drop tanks aren't anything but a marginal technology.

> >The only problems w/ drop tanks (aside from eventually sundering economic
> >assumptions), is the issue that is only a problem if you're the "instant
> >consumption" model of J-drive.
> 
> If you drop the instant consumption model, you do have problems
> with various areas (like the presence of jump projectors at

Solved by virtue of a 'higher-tech' handwave.  In addition, you get to keep
the canon Gazelle.

> higher TLs).  Though I think the economic issues are far greater.

Ignoring the economic issues by simply abolishing drop tanks seems nothing
more than sticking one's head into the sand.   I don't mean that offensively,
but there shoudl be a better way to accomidate previously published material
than somethign so extreme (economic regions... a powerful lobby in the
Imperial Court against the drop tank manufacterers, etc.  Political and
economic backlash, etc etc).  Maybe you have alot invested in your particular
theory of jump drive...  I really doubt how that could be applicable to drop
tanks having a catastrophic effect on your campaigning.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:36:54 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage

At 6:03 AM -0800 3/31/99, Traveller-digest wrote:, Tue, 30 Mar 1999
16:17:25 -0800

>Is their a OTU jump theory? or is everything we are talking about just
>speculation. I've seen different theory's, with hydrogen bubbles and
>lanthanum grids, capacitors and sinks, etc...

What is laid out in one place is that it take 10% of the ships
volume, in liquid hydrogen, per parsec per jump.  It also
takes a jump drive that has the volume, cost, etc. as listed
in the supplements.  These drives require lanthanum to construct.
At higher TLs, you can have jump "projectors" that allow you
to jump something else.  In CT the jump drive used the same
powerplant as everthing else, later on this was seperate out.
It was stated that you couldn't interact with something in
jump space (though this was changed when the idea of getting
"precipitated out" by masses was introduced).


Various works have "generally" treated the drive as having
a grid of lanthanum in the hull.  It is also mentioned that
there is an energy signature when you enter and leave jump
space (was this original?).  Various adventures have dealt
with capacitors the store the energy for jumping and varoius
ways of charging them (from solar energy to drop tanks to
black globes).

That is what, at least, I can recall off the top of my head.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:43:47 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Type TI / TJ scan needed

Hi everyone,

I need a good quality scan of the TI / TJ Frontier Transport from "The
Traveller Book" (or another source if it ever showed up elsewhere) for some
upcoming work.  Can anyone help?

BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity to again thank everyone on the TML
that has helped with material in the past for "Far Trader" and "First In",
and for everyone's comments regarding the same.  Thanks again!!  You guys
are the main reason I do it, though the cash helps ;D

Thx!!!
Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:43:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: max accel

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
>How about this - I'll build a light space fighter carrier and it's fifty
>space fighters. I'll include construction costs, munitions, and pilot
>training costs as if I were building it for both the anti-starship role
>and the interface/ground attack role.
>
>For the MCr I spend, you could probably build a couple airbases
>and a thousand atmospheric fighters. Or, you could build a base and a
>couple hundred aerospace fighters - and win. Because your
>atmospheric fighters will have no more chance of winning than an
>F-16 has a chance of intercepting a YF-12A[1] that's up to altitude
>and running at speed.

But your carrier would wipe out the support infrastructure with KKM
deadfall, missile fire and laser attack before the atmospherics can engage.
The aerospace fighters, if ground based, can be picked off by the fighters
and carrier during their vulnerable boost phase before they're out of the
gravity well, unless you base them in orbit.

The atmospheric fighters don't get to play, unless the carrier lets them.
Even with an ASAT weapon like the F15 Clancy describes in Red Storm Rising,
they are vulnerable as they have to get high enough to engage.

Operating down the potential well is a big problem.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:37:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I do not have SoM and you are talking about a very different rampart that I
>have access to.  6 tons of sensors!  What does that rampart weight?

I think he's talking mass not displacement tonnage (volume).
>I'll counter you proposal.  You design a space capable fighter at our
>current tech level using any design system you chose and then compare it to
>a real jet fighter in use today for the purpose of air combat at say 20,000
>feet. See who wins then.  The air fighter.  Why because of the design weight
>penalty

Thta's easy. We don't have viable space systems at TL8, not for a space
capable fighter. Not even for something like the Deltas in Walter Jon
Williams 'Hardwired'. So you ask him to design a space capable fighter with
a rules (and RL) framework which will not support one. Hardly a fair
contest when you're comparing a mature technology against one which doesn't
exist yet. Almost as unfair as comparing a mature technology (TL15) against
an obsolete one (TL8).

Maybe you should look at TL12 - this is viable for the whole Traveller
period. Otherwise this is heading to non-viable land. TL12 should be around
where the CG tech starts to outperform normal tech.

> It has to use thrusters

It uses Antigrav/contragrav generators in all versions of Traveller, not T
Plates.

even though they

>produce a massive heat signature

EM signature *not* heat (SOpM)

> Remember I said 'all otherthings being equal'.
>That mean weight, dollars, tech level, pilot training time, exc.

That is a fair argument, but unrealistic; you are likely to have several
dedicated air fighters for each space fighter.

>The design limits placed on the space fighter are greater than those placed
>on the air plane IN the atmosphere.

If you constrain it to match the parameters of an aircraft.

>It's like comparing a battle rider and a jump capable war ship of the same
>tonage.  Of course the battle rider will win most times in a stand up fight
>because that is it's natural enviroment.  That why I keep saying it's a no
>brainer.

But you need to think outside the TL8 aircraft box you're thinking in. It
is unlikely you can compare a space fighter directly with a air fighter, as
the costs will be higher. You need someone to build a spacefighter, then
take your 'n' aircraft and see if they can kill it for a fair contest of
technologies. Otherwise aircraft win be default as space craft cannot
compete against cost. This may be your point, but I feel it has little real
world (game world) bearing on discussing the viability of the technologies.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:52:38 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

>> The YF-12A was built.  Three examples IIRC.  They carried the
>> missiles in individual bays and were to provide a high speed,
>> high altitude defense for CONUS.  I seem to remember that they
>> are either in storage or on static display.
>
> That's news to me.  What did they do to fit missles into that
> thing?  There is not a lot of waste space and anything on the
> outside would cause problems for the aerodynamic or get burned
> of due to friction.


This is a good starting point as it lists a timeline for the A-12,
YF-12, and the SR-71 from the 50's through the 90's.  Educational
stuff.  I knew of the drone (Q-12/D-21), but not of some of the
missile launch tests.

  http://www.beale.af.mil/AIRCRAFT/srtl1950.htm

ObTrav:  The timelines listed add a lot of color to these birds.
         Detailed timelines for Imperium vessels would do the
         same.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:03:57 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 09:24 PM 3/31/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>The YF-12A was built.  Three examples IIRC.  They carried the missiles in
>>individual bays and were to provide a high speed, high altitude defense for
>>CONUS.  I seem to remember that they are either in storage or on static
>>display.
>>
>
>That's news to me.  What did they do to fit missles into that thing?  There
>is not a lot of waste space and anything on the outside would cause problems
>for the aerodynamic or get burned of due to friction.

The missiles were stored internally in the body of the craft.  If you look
at the aircraft from the front, it would look like this:  --\<O>/--  The
missiles are stored in individual cells in the < and > parts of the
illustration.  I think I have an illustration of the loadout somewhere at
home.  If you want, I can scan the relevant illustration and send it to you.

Kurt (Who _really_ wanted to see and SR-71 in flight)

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:17:52 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Douglas E. Berry posted:
>
>I believe I may have found a solution for the invulnerable battledress
>problem in GURPS: Traveller.  The Type-214 is a very heavy gauss weapon
>that is designed to fire the 20mm Californium round mention in _Star Mercs_
>page 66.
<snip>
>Using the californium rounds, the average damage is 8,400 points.

Geez, Doug!

You must have been spending your free time reading bedtime stories
to Ditzie to come up with this weapon.


...!...


Oh gawd, now *there's* a thought!  Ditzie's version of the Brothers Grimm.

I can just see it....


Red Riding Hood: "What biiiig teethie weethies you haaaave, Grannnyy."

Big Bad Wolf: "The better to _eat_ you, my dear! OH, SH.."


BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!!!!


...and Red Riding Hood lived happily ever after.


(Woodsman?!? We don' need no steenkeeng woodsman!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:23:15 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 04:12 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Just what are the GURPSy sensors (PESA and AESA) capable of, especially in
>relation to Traveller sensors?  What bands to they cover and what TL's do they
>become available at?

Both PESA and AESA become available at GTL8 (about TTL 8-9?).  

AESA is a multi-mode sensor which includes: radar, imaging radar, and
ladar.  (according to GT)  VE2nd expands to say it has the ability to
switch between search radar, low-rez imaging radar, high-rez imaging radar,
and ladar.  At GTL10 (TTL 9) the basic bridge's AESA is 7500lbs, 150cf, and
costs 27kcr.  AT TL12 (GTL 15) it's 5620lb, 120cf, and21kcr

PESA is an array of infrared thermal imaging and low-light telescopic
sensors.  VE2nd expands to include passive radar, thermograph, possibly
ultraviolet imaging, low-light TV, and magnification (3000x in basic
bridge, 10000x in command bridge).  at GTL 10, the basic bridge has a PESA
that is 3000lbs, 60cf, and 200.6kcr  at GTL 12 it's half that.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:27:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

<Frank Pitt>
That's why I like this list, it's so educational.
</Frank Pitt>

Ya, well I have to admit the first place I learned about the 50 km/s
figure was on this list, so... :-)  I have since confirmed this peice of
data with (even?) more reliable sources just to be sure...

<Frank>
However, this raises the opposite point.

If these differences can be handled by Traveller ships so easily, why
would they bother to slow down on the way out ? Just ensure you accelerate
in the right direction to put your ship on an inbound vector when you pop
out of J-space and you've saved yourself quite a bit of time. 

I can think of one reason why having the smallest relative velocity would
be good, and that's if you can't calculate what the _direction_ of your
vector will be on exit from J-space.  
</Frank>

I've long thought that jumping randomizes the direction of your outcoming
vector.  According to some folks, this does not violate any physical laws,
although it seems to me intuitively that it would, so I just say that this
direction change is a byproduct of the energy one puts into jumping.  Some
energy "spills" into a vector that adds to your input vector in a
completely unpredictable way.

One advantage of this is it makes the whole "planet cracker" impact thing
a little more difficult to pull off (though it's still uncomfortably easy,
and NO I DO NOT WANT TO START THAT WHOLE DISCUSSION AGAIN! :-)

The other thing randomization of direction does, of course, is justify the
slowing down business at the jump point...

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:32:28 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

SSSSSSPLLLLLOOOOOOORRRRKKK!!!!!

ROFLMSAO!!!!

I forgot the Cardinal Rule of reading the TML:  Never consume beverages or
food whilst reading, it tends to be bad for keyboard, monitor, etc :)

That was just TOOO funny David!!  Maybe that could be the first Ditzie comic
strip...

Jesse




>Douglas E. Berry posted:
>>
>>I believe I may have found a solution for the invulnerable battledress
>>problem in GURPS: Traveller.  The Type-214 is a very heavy gauss weapon
>>that is designed to fire the 20mm Californium round mention in _Star
Mercs_
>>page 66.
><snip>
>>Using the californium rounds, the average damage is 8,400 points.
>
>Geez, Doug!
>
>You must have been spending your free time reading bedtime stories
>to Ditzie to come up with this weapon.
>
>
>...!...
>
>
>Oh gawd, now *there's* a thought!  Ditzie's version of the Brothers Grimm.
>
>I can just see it....
>
>
>Red Riding Hood: "What biiiig teethie weethies you haaaave, Grannnyy."
>
>Big Bad Wolf: "The better to _eat_ you, my dear! OH, SH.."
>
>
>BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!!!!
>
>
>...and Red Riding Hood lived happily ever after.
>
>
>(Woodsman?!? We don' need no steenkeeng woodsman!)
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:42:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: ObTrav

<Bruce Johnson>
_Ob_ligatory _Traveller_ reference. A mantra to ward off the "That's not
ON TOPIC!!!" goons fortunateky far, far rarer in this venue than in
others

(I'm on another mailing list where some prissy tightpants sort has
gotten their panties in a bunch because someone used foul language like
f$@#. No, not a word _represented_ by 'f$@#'...the actual character
string: f$@#. A flame war has ensued. Oy!)
</Bruce Johnson>

Ha! Not half as bad as the FUDGE mailing list.  Eris had the _temerity_
:-/ to post his quite excellent articles on using the FUDGE rules with
Traveller there and the thanks he got was a testy finger wag from the list
admin about long posts.  Now, not only is there a bandwidth-wasting
discussion about long posts going on, but I'm getting personal emails from
folks on that list getting snitty with me for siding with Eris.  So
instead of some very nice on-topic posts, the list is full of crap now and
I'm wasting my time arguing with some rudeass. *sigh* And I thought the
TML had problems! :-)

ObTrav: None!  Bwa ha ha ha ha!  So bite me!  3:)>  No seriously, be
thankful for what we have here.  Aside from the occasional Troll attack,
this is a pretty informative and fun list to be on.

The evil bandwidth-eating demon known as Charles C.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #378
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 31 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 379



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: 10/100 Diameters
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Jump and Black Globes.
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: ObTraveller
Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: IgNoble ettiquette
Re: Naval architecture terminology and ObTraveller
Re: Spofulam?
Re: Garbage
Re: Garbage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:56:24 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Jesse DeGraff posted:
>
>SSSSSSPLLLLLOOOOOOORRRRKKK!!!!!

Heheh. That's one.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:04:45 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Smart, David J (David) wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> >Using the californium rounds, the average damage is 8,400 points.
> 
> Geez, Doug!
> 
> You must have been spending your free time reading bedtime stories
> to Ditzie to come up with this weapon.
> 
> ...!...
> 
> Oh gawd, now *there's* a thought!  Ditzie's version of the Brothers Grimm.
> 
> I can just see it....
> 
> Red Riding Hood: "What biiiig teethie weethies you haaaave, Grannnyy."
> 
> Big Bad Wolf: "The better to _eat_ you, my dear! OH, SH.."
> 
> BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!!!!
> 
> ...and Red Riding Hood lived happily ever after.

Tres cool!  Only thing I might change is the sound effect; I think that
"FWAAASHHH" fits a bit better....
> 
> (Woodsman?!? We don' need no steenkeeng woodsman!)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:34:47 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

Frank Pitt wrote:

> In actual fact, the relative velocities between stars in our
> >neck of the woods are in the neighborhood of 50 km/s 
 
> Hmm, I thought that the average relative velocity was far higher than that,
> around the order of 50,000 km/s, Perhaps I read something written in m/s as km/s

I asked the same question last year and got the 50 to 100 km/s
answers. It also matches what I found when I did some study on the
subject.  There are some rouges that are somewhat higher, but nothing
like 50,000km/s. ;->

> That's why I like this list, it's so educational.

It is isn't it? 
 
> > For this reason, the idea of decelerating to a small velocity
> >relative to your point of departure is not so ridiculous.  Assuming the
> >destination system is moving in roughly the same direction as the
> >departure system (a pretty safe bet), this will tend to reduce the
> >variability in your arrival velocity and (on average) give you a shorter
> >vector at destination.
 
> However, this raises the opposite point.
 
> If these differences can be handled by Traveller ships so easily, why would
> they bother to slow down on the way out ? Just ensure you accelerate in the
> right direction to put your ship on an inbound vector when you pop out  of
> J-space and you've saved yourself quite a bit of time.

As I understand it, that's called a "running jump" and it is performed
for just the reasons you describe. I believe a "standing jump" is
considered easier to plot, but a "running jump" gives you the benefit
of partially or completely offsetting the relative differences in
vector between the two systems. 

IMTU, ships use stutterwarp for in-system flight (my version of
stutter doesn't get faster than a few % of c), so they don't build up
a *real* vector while running.  They use gravity assists and HEPlaR
engines to change their real vector both before and after jump so they
can orbit their destination.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:34:20 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

I posted:
>
>Geez, Doug!
>
>You must have been spending your free time reading bedtime stories
>to Ditzie to come up with this weapon.
>
>
>...!...
>
>
>Oh gawd, now *there's* a thought!  Ditzie's version of the Brothers
Grimm.
>
>I can just see it....

Hey! How 'bout asking Ditzie to design the most gawdawful holdout
possible and calling it:


The "Fairy Godmother" Express by Spofulam!

"For those times when Prince Charming wants more than a glass slipper."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:36:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Douglas E. Berry posted:
>
>I believe I may have found a solution for the invulnerable battledress
>problem in GURPS: Traveller.  The Type-214 is a very heavy gauss weapon
>that is designed to fire the 20mm Californium round mention in _Star
>Mercs_ page 66.

>Using the californium rounds, the average damage is 8,400 points.

Unfortunately, its also explosion type damage, which means that much lighter
battledress than the stuff in Star Mercs can bounce it, because DR is squared
against it (though I think it will shatter the frame, which will kill the
vehicle).  The real problem is that the BD in Star Mercs is way overdesigned. 
If you build weapons to scale with it, you can just use a TL 11 20mm railgun
scaled to match the suit (low power, very long barrel, slow autoloader, rifle
mount: 
20mm TL 11 low power long barrel electromagnetic cannon
a 20mm railgun firing APSHD will punch throu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:42:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Douglas E. Berry posted:
>
>I believe I may have found a solution for the invulnerable battledress
>problem in GURPS: Traveller.  The Type-214 is a very heavy gauss weapon
>that is designed to fire the 20mm Californium round mention in _Star
>Mercs_ page 66.

>Using the californium rounds, the average damage is 8,400 points.

Unfortunately, its also explosion type damage, which means that much lighter
battledress than the stuff in Star Mercs can bounce it, because DR is squared
against it (though I think it will shatter the frame, which will kill the
vehicle).  The real problem is that the BD in Star Mercs is excessively heavy
- -- if you have weapons of comparable scale (say, a 50-100 lb mecha rifle) it
isn't really that hard to kill -- I can do it just fine with an X-ray laser, a
fusion gun, or a MD cannon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:56:50 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Jump and Black Globes.

HG and MT both state that if enough power is absorbed from the black globe
and their is sufficient fuel, then a jump can be made.

Here's the questions:
How much energy is needed from the black globe for a jump? I thought that
was what the fuel was for. Why would you need the fuel if you already have
the energy? Would the jump only consume a part of the fuel? How much fuel
gets used in a jump powered by a black globe? Would the Black globe just
give enough power to  put the ship into jump space, but not enough to keep
the jump field up and cause a mis-jump? Would a jump induced by a black
globe be an automatic misjump or only if it was an unexpected need to jump?
Is the explanation in HG/MT a mistake and the relation of black globes to
jumps different. (Like no fuel is necessary, for example)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:55:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Smart, David J (David) writes:

> Hey! How 'bout asking Ditzie to design the most gawdawful holdout
> possible and calling it:
> 
> The "Fairy Godmother" Express by Spofulam!

Bah.. its hard to design really excessive holdout weapons given the
restrictions in GT.  A TL 12 fusion holdout (fully loaded, 1 lb) is:
Fusion Holdout: Malf Ver, Type Exp, Dmg 6d*8, SS 9, Acc 6, 1/2D 110, Max 220,
Wt 1.0 lb, RoF 1/2, Shots 2(4B), Min ST 7, Rcl -1, Cost $18,000.  Fairly
pathetic -- if you fire it at point-blank range you might survive the secondary
blast effects as you're engulfed by the fireball ;)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:43:13 EST
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: ObTraveller

In a message dated 3/31/99 3:19:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< 
 Spo-fu-lam Spo as in Spot, fu as in Kung, lam as in 'on the', running
 from Ditzie and her toys.
 
 At least that's how _I_ pronounce it.  >>

Ok, what's it mean????

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:20:10 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)

Dear Folks -

Finally got a look at the Carnival ships site - wow, those are huge
monsters!

Could I suggest the following guidelines/rules for Trav cruise ships:

     1.   True luxury liners are BIG. For example, the King Richard.
     2.   To portray large areas of common space, create new modules
(GURPS) or components (HG, etc). For example: ballroom, large common dining
room, auditorium, casino, specialty shops, and so on. Then put these
modules into the ship. NOW you will be able to draw pretty deckplans that
match RW ships.
     3.   When figuring running costs and revenue, remember to take the
casino and shops into account. ESPECIALLY the "Millionaires Lounge" casino
(see the Destiny RW cruise ship to see what I mean).
     4.   Change the rules for passage costs. Even if IYTU you have ruled
that the Imperium subsidises ticket prices to keep them down, you can
easily say that cruise ships are a special case and are able to charge
more. After all, "normal" passage is generally one-way, at least for a
particular starship. Cruises, however, are generally round trips. Allowing
cruise ships to charge higher prices will not affect the transportation
economy at all.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:35:32 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

Dear Folks -

Julian wrote:
>Sounds kinda like the Hellbore weapon from the Bolo books.

The Bolo books - this name sounds familiar. Are these ones in which there
are huge sentient tanks, a la Ogre? If so, the books are written by William
Keith (his webpage can be accessed from my Jump Points page). Contains cool
pics of said tanks, by Bill himself (a Trav Great Old One ;-).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:48:02 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

At 10:35 AM 4/1/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Julian wrote:
>>Sounds kinda like the Hellbore weapon from the Bolo books.
>
>The Bolo books - this name sounds familiar. Are these ones in which there
>are huge sentient tanks, a la Ogre? If so, the books are written by William
>Keith (his webpage can be accessed from my Jump Points page). Contains cool
>pics of said tanks, by Bill himself (a Trav Great Old One ;-).

Yup that's the ones.  They were actually created by Keith Laumer, but it's
a _very_ shared universe.  William Keith is one of the author's who write
in it, and has written some of my favorite Bolo books.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:11:28 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: IgNoble ettiquette

Dear Folks -

[Apologies if this has been asked - I haven't finished my digests yet!]

I have seen Hans' noble system before. I thought it was a nice idea but a
bit too unwieldy. For example, I have a question: how do you reach these
esoteric levels? Do you still use the normal chargen system or something
else? Are Imperial appointments, therefore, something that you grant as a
GM ("too important to leave to chance") or can they occur "naturally"?

I think that the Milieu 0 explanation - which has appeared in other earlier
sources - is perhaps better: when a world is assimilated^k^k^k _welcomed_
into the Imperium, the Moot reviews the world's current rulers and grants
Imperial titles accordingly. For example, a world ruler entitled "King
Frederick" may also be granted the Imperial title of "Marquis [planet
name]". The Imperial title, although a "lesser" name, has precedence over
local titles.

This can have interesting implications for role-playing. For example, King
Fred rules over all he surveys, but has to kowtow to other Imperial
nobility that he may see as beneath him. This can certainly cause
resentment, and Fred may be subtlely impolite or even rude, all the while
maintaining a facade of deference to an off-world noble. Fun for those who
play political campaigns! Works best in a freeform (= US "LARP").
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 01:36:37 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Naval architecture terminology and ObTraveller

On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:26:30 -0500, "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:

>Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?), most deckplans
>refer to "freshers", although I've seen some (but can't remember who
>published them, nor of what ships) that say "head".  What's the
>consensus on this important item of nomenclature?

"Ob" as in "ObTraveller" is short for "Obligatory", which is
short for "Obligatory Reference to ".  It means, in essence, "I
know that this post is really off-topic for the list/newsgroup,
but here's my nod to topicality."

As far as "Head" vs. "Fresher", I suppose it depends on how you
view the Traveller universe, and what SF you read.  I haven't
really thought about it, and probably wouldn't be consistent in
my usages, but I suppose that IMTU the usage would be as follows:

On Navy ships: Head
On non-Navy military ships: Latrine
On non-military ships:
	Small owner (free/far/fat traders, yachts, etc.): Whatever
          the convention on the owner's homeworld.
    Large owner, non-passenger: Convention adhered to by the 
        majority of the crew.
    Passenger Liners:
        If they contain individualized laundry facilities:
            Freshers.
        If they contain water showers: Bathrooms.
        If they contain non-water showers: Freshers.
        If they contain no showers: Toilets, or WCs.
        If they are in public areas of the ship: Rest Rooms.
        If they are carrying a majority of passengers who are not

            heavily influenced by Solomani culture: Whatever the 
            convention adhered to by the majority of the 
            passengers.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 01:36:40 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Spofulam?

On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:26:30 -0500, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Word lesson for the day:

>Spo-fu-lam Spo as in Spot, fu as in Kung, lam as in 'on the', running
>from Ditzie and her toys.

>At least that's how _I_ pronounce it. 

You and I disagree on "fu" - I read it as "few", as in "not
many", as in the number of men that would make a pass at a
mature-looking Ditzie, if she was holding that pocket-knife from
Jesse's first DitziePic.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:09:00 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:12:38 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com
>> Well, the idea that you can use drop tanks, but only for part
>> of your fuel requirements _is_ new.  Also, there are other
>> sources where the use of fuel before jump is described, Anna
>> Novic (or whatever, I don't remember the name exactly),
>> jump projectors, etc. all indicate this.

>Annic Nova was an unusual case, wasn't it?  Jump projectors are more advanced
>tech so have another possible handwave around.

Well, you have Annic Nova, you have jump projectors, you
also have being able to get jump energy from black globe
projectors, they all point the same way (there may be
more that don't come to mind).  I would say that
to change them all is, in fact, something new.

>That's not how it works, though.  By CT standards, if the Gazelle keeps its
>drop tanks, it can do Jump 4, completely draining all tankage (drop tank and
>internal).  If drop tanks are dropped before jump, J-5 and everything is gone
>(drop tanks consumed before drop?  Or internal consumed and/or transferred to
>the J-drive and drop tankage transfered to internal?)  No drop tanks at all?
>J2, all internal tankage.
>I don't know of anything saying if less than max jump is undertaken.  I
>presume there might be something in Supp 7,but from Douglas' post a couple
>days back, I doubt it.

Well, I don't know enough about Gazelle.  I have supplement 7
and I'll look when I get home.  However, the restriction that
you can only use drop tanks for part of your fuel would, indeed,
seem to be new (in addition to the points above).

>Do you see what that means?  NOTHING says exactly what fuel goes to where.

Well, in fact you have the aforementioned and things like the
fact that the original CT ships used the same power plant for
jump drives and everything else.

>Alot of people have come to conclusions for their own TUs, but to say drop
>tanks are flawed in concept is in error w/o an 'improper' conception of how
>jump is supposed to work (officially, which was left vague).

I think drop tanks fit in with how jump was described (with the
addition that they allowed fuel to be used before jump).  However,
I also think that insuficient thought was given to their impact on the
background, which is non-trivial.

>> >  Drop tanks exist in every
>> >version of Traveller.  They're not just going to go away.
>>
>> Well, first of all, they don't exist in GT (where I think they

>LOL.  We don't want to do *that* debate again, do we?  Aaaah, the openings
>people leave...  :-)

I'm not sure what debate you are talking about.  They don't,
in fact, currently exist in GT.  Whether they will exist, and
in what form is subject to debate....

>> should be a strictly optional rule) or in T5 (which isn't out
>
>If they're "official" what does that impact your campaign?

Let me ask you, if they were an option rule, what does that impact
_your_ campaign.  The problem with them as an official rule
is that they have profound implication for the background which
means they either take over the progress of the timeline, or
you have to introduce them and then have their uses be inexplicitly
ignored by almost everyone (even while PC are running arounds
showing what can be done with them) and that impacts suspension
of disbelief.

>> yet).  As the MT, CT, and TNE, these are, since they aren't
>> being published, by definition personal traveller universes.

>Personal TUs?  T5 is just a fantasy right now.  And G:T is, by self-
>proclamation, "Alternate."  Canon has nothing to do with current status of
>publication or noone would even consider nor care what happened in an obscure
>adventure or "supplement" published over 20 years ago, would they?

Yeah, but the point is whether one should accept drop tanks
becuase "they aren't going away".  Well, for CT, MT, and TNE
there is no new material.  You know everything that is
out and if you delete the references to drop tanks, they have
in fact, "gone away".  This will never conflict with new material
since there won't be any.

AS to GT and T5.  How they handle drop tanks remains to be seen.

>> Mostly the former, even if you arbitrarily say they can only provide
>> some fraction of the fuel (which seem hokey to me) you will still
>> have every ship that can using them.  Any traffic along a
>> major trade route (important worlds and all the one that lie
>> between them) should be dominated by a system of jump tanks
>> (whether they are ships that use them to replace all or 1/2
>> their fuel).

>Why should that be wrong if the things are discovered at TL-15?

The problem is that, unless you want to have the question
"why isn't this being used" hanging over everything, you have
to fully explore the consequences (failing to do that is one
of the causes of a background with holes in it and a "hokey"
feel).  This a) is a lot of work, b) if it is handled badly
it can introduce other things that are hokey, c) exploring
all the consequences of this can hijack the plotline from
more interesting things (there really is a limit to the
number of things you can reasonable develop at one time),
d) it changes the "feel" of the game (you get closer to
a B5 kind of situation where many ships will have to leave
from "jump stations".

The biggest issue, for me, is "c".  This isn't a problem
for everyone (Hans suggested it could be something that
made GT unique) but, at the least, it would require the
author of the plot line pefering to do that rather than
other creative events he might be invisaging.

>  I presume you
>game in the Spinward Marches, a backwater.  They won't come in common usage
>for a long time in the toolies.

It is not _that_ much of a backwater.  It can make them (gosh, they
were first made localy weren't they?) and they will save people
in the Marches just as much money.

>> If you drop the instant consumption model, you do have problems
>> with various areas (like the presence of jump projectors at

>Solved by virtue of a 'higher-tech' handwave.  In addition, you get to keep
>the canon Gazelle.

Well, sure, you can try and handwave new technology.  However,
too many handwaves make things hokey and each handwave has
the problem of possible future consequences.  I think not
having drop tanks (given how little was written about them)
is a smaller change than fussing with new restrictions on
them, dealing with how it affects black globes, jump
projectors, economic changes, etc.

>> higher TLs).  Though I think the economic issues are far greater.

>Ignoring the economic issues by simply abolishing drop tanks seems nothing
>more than sticking one's head into the sand.

If you abolish them, there are no economic issues.  The
economics were written without them in mind.  (In GT, drop
tanks would mean revamping significan portions of Far Trader).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:09:11 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:12:38 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com
>> Well, the idea that you can use drop tanks, but only for part
>> of your fuel requirements _is_ new.  Also, there are other
>> sources where the use of fuel before jump is described, Anna
>> Novic (or whatever, I don't remember the name exactly),
>> jump projectors, etc. all indicate this.

>Annic Nova was an unusual case, wasn't it?  Jump projectors are more advanced
>tech so have another possible handwave around.

Well, you have Annic Nova, you have jump projectors, you
also have being able to get jump energy from black globe
projectors, they all point the same way.  I would say that
to change them all is, in fact, something new.

>That's not how it works, though.  By CT standards, if the Gazelle keeps its
>drop tanks, it can do Jump 4, completely draining all tankage (drop tank and
>internal).  If drop tanks are dropped before jump, J-5 and everything is gone
>(drop tanks consumed before drop?  Or internal consumed and/or transferred to
>the J-drive and drop tankage transfered to internal?)  No drop tanks at all?
>J2, all internal tankage.
>I don't know of anything saying if less than max jump is undertaken.  I
>presume there might be something in Supp 7,but from Douglas' post a couple
>days back, I doubt it.

Well, I don't know enough about Gazelle.  I have supplement 7
and I'll look when I get home.  However, the restriction that
you can only use drop tanks for part of your fuel would, indeed,
seem to be new (in addition to the points above).

>Do you see what that means?  NOTHING says exactly what fuel goes to where.

Well, in fact you have the aforementioned and things like the
fact that the original CT ships used the same power plant for
jump drives and everything else.

>Alot of people have come to conclusions for their own TUs, but to say drop
>tanks are flawed in concept is in error w/o an 'improper' conception of how
>jump is supposed to work (officially, which was left vague).

I think drop tanks fit in with how jump was described (with the
addition that they allowed fuel to be used before jump).  However,
I also think that insuficient thought was given to their impact on the
background, which is non-trivial.

>> >  Drop tanks exist in every
>> >version of Traveller.  They're not just going to go away.
>>
>> Well, first of all, they don't exist in GT (where I think they

>LOL.  We don't want to do *that* debate again, do we?  Aaaah, the openings
>people leave...  :-)

I'm not sure what debate you are talking about.  They don't,
in fact, currently exist in GT.  Whether they will exist, and
in what form is subject to debate....

>> should be a strictly optional rule) or in T5 (which isn't out
>
>If they're "official" what does that impact your campaign?

Let me ask you, if they were an option rule, what does that impact
_your_ campaign.  The problem with them as an official rule
is that they have profound implication for the background which
means they either take over the progress of the timeline, or
you have to introduce them and then have their uses be inexplicitly
ignored by almost everyone (even while PC are running arounds
showing what can be done with them) and that impacts suspension
of disbelief.

>> yet).  As the MT, CT, and TNE, these are, since they aren't
>> being published, by definition personal traveller universes.

>Personal TUs?  T5 is just a fantasy right now.  And G:T is, by self-
>proclamation, "Alternate."  Canon has nothing to do with current status of
>publication or noone would even consider nor care what happened in an obscure
>adventure or "supplement" published over 20 years ago, would they?

Yeah, but the point is whether one should accept drop tanks
becuase "they aren't going away".  Well, for CT, MT, and TNE
there is no new material.  You know everything that is
out and if you delete the references to drop tanks, they have
in fact, "gone away".  This will never conflict with new material
since there won't be any.

AS to GT and T5.  How they handle drop tanks remains to be seen.

>> Mostly the former, even if you arbitrarily say they can only provide
>> some fraction of the fuel (which seem hokey to me) you will still
>> have every ship that can using them.  Any traffic along a
>> major trade route (important worlds and all the one that lie
>> between them) should be dominated by a system of jump tanks
>> (whether they are ships that use them to replace all or 1/2
>> their fuel).

>Why should that be wrong if the things are discovered at TL-15?

The problem is that, unless you want to have the question
"why isn't this being used" hanging over everything, you have
to fully explore the consequences (failing to do that is one
of the causes of a background with holes in it and a "hokey"
feel).  This a) is a lot of work, b) if it is handled badly
it can introduce other things that are hokey, c) exploring
all the consequences of this can hijack the plotline from
more interesting things (there really is a limit to the
number of things you can reasonable develop at one time),
d) it changes the "feel" of the game (you get closer to
a B5 kind of situation where many ships will have to leave
from "jump stations".

The biggest issue, for me, is "c".  This isn't a problem
for everyone (Hans suggested it could be something that
made GT unique) but, at the least, it would require the
author of the plot line pefering to do that rather than
other creative events he might be invisaging.

>  I presume you
>game in the Spinward Marches, a backwater.  They won't come in common usage
>for a long time in the toolies.

It is not _that_ much of a backwater.  It can make them (gosh, they
were first made localy weren't they?) and they will save people
in the Marches just as much money.

>> If you drop the instant consumption model, you do have problems
>> with various areas (like the presence of jump projectors at

>Solved by virtue of a 'higher-tech' handwave.  In addition, you get to keep
>the canon Gazelle.

Well, sure, you can try and handwave new technology.  However,
too many handwaves make things hokey and each handwave has
the problem of possible future consequences.  I think not
having drop tanks (given how little was written about them)
is a smaller change than fussing with new restrictions on
them, dealing with how it affects black globes, jump
projectors, economic changes, etc.

>> higher TLs).  Though I think the economic issues are far greater.

>Ignoring the economic issues by simply abolishing drop tanks seems nothing
>more than sticking one's head into the sand.

If you abolish them, there are no economic issues.  The
economics were written without them in mind.  (In GT, drop
tanks would mean revamping significan portions of Far Trader).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #379
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 380



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

fighters and tanks
Re: Spofulam?
Re: Garbage
Re: max accel
Re: fighters and tanks
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality
Re: The USS North Carolina as an ED-6 (Re: max accel)
Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote
Merchants
Re:Merchant
Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: Spofulam?
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: ObTraveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:16:46 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: fighters and tanks

Charles wrote

>Who needs 6G when you are laser armed?  Speed is nearly meaningless when
>your weapons work at the speed of light and the range is short.
In that case, what you want is a tank. An airbreathing aerodynamic lift
vehicle just can't carry the armour to compete with a grav tank; I think
no-one would argue that grav tanks will beat space fighters of equivalent
price either.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:48:16 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Spofulam?

Good thing I'd put my beer down....
:)

Jesse



>You and I disagree on "fu" - I read it as "few", as in "not
>many", as in the number of men that would make a pass at a
>mature-looking Ditzie, if she was holding that pocket-knife from
>Jesse's first DitziePic.
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:19:23 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Garbage

David P. Summers wrote:

> Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:12:38 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com
> >> Well, the idea that you can use drop tanks, but only for part
> >> of your fuel requirements _is_ new.  Also, there are other
> >> sources where the use of fuel before jump is described, Anna
> >> Novic (or whatever, I don't remember the name exactly),
> >> jump projectors, etc. all indicate this.
>
> >Annic Nova was an unusual case, wasn't it?  Jump projectors are more advanced
> >tech so have another possible handwave around.
>
> Well, you have Annic Nova, you have jump projectors, you
> also have being able to get jump energy from black globe
> projectors, they all point the same way.  I would say that
> to change them all is, in fact, something new.

Excuse me if I butt in here with a little information (along the lines of a little
knowledge being a dangerous weapon).  My only reference to jump projectors is in
the MT Ref's manual.
Jump Projector: Jump projectors induce a jump field around the target, causing it
to misjump. Available at very high Tech Levels. [TL 21]

Now, if I may interpret this... suppose that means that you can hit a ship
attempting to jump with a jump projector.  This would screw up the jump, causing a
misjump.  The jumping ship still uses all of its regular jumping procedures, it
just misjumps.  Nothing in the description precludes the limitation on jumping
vessels only.

I know that liberals would like to say that it doesn't say it won't work on any
object, and therefore allow it to work.  But if we look to preserve canon without
reprecussions and more importantly avoid a definitive answer as to how a jump
drive works, this limitation seems to be reasonable.  I'd even go so far as
allowing the induced field to initiate the jump drives, somehow tricking them into
activating.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:32:43 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

>>Also does CG and thruster plates have
>>that fine a control in every direction without reorienting the drives
>>facing?  CG can cancel gravity but that is about it.  Can thrusters thrust
>>in any direction regardless of physical location and orientaion?  What
>>happens when the pilot is in the path of the thrust?
>
It depends on what system you're using.  If you're using GT with the
optional rules of GURPS Vehicles I believe that at TL12 Reactionless
Thrusters do not actually have be physically oriented to provide thrust in a
specific direction. (I seem to recall at TL 13 (GURPS TL not CT) no external
"plates" are necessary and the drive is actually a Reactionless Drive.)

Terry-

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:44:52 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: fighters and tanks

>vehicle just can't carry the armour to compete with a grav tank; I think
>no-one would argue that grav tanks will beat space fighters of equivalent
>price either.

Depends on _how_ the Space Figher is armed!  It seems to me that said
fighter could fire some kind of 'Tank-Buster' missile from a low orbit,
that would take the tank out, while using the atmosphere to mess up the
Tanks Laser weapons.

Do any of the design rules for weaponery take air friction and defraction
into account?

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:44:40 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

I don't understand that whole atmosphere fighter/space fighter thing.
If it was me I'd use a TL12 MBT, which (under GT at least) has a top speed
of 600 mph, 4500 mile sensor range, and a fusion gun with a 50 mile range.
Scratch one F22, or a whole squadron of 'em. :)

Terry-

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:44:47 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

I don't understand that whole atmosphere fighter/space fighter thing.
If it was me I'd use a TL12 MBT, which (under GT at least) has a top speed
of 600 mph, 4500 mile sensor range, and a fusion gun with a 50 mile range.
Scratch one F22, or a whole squadron of 'em. :)

Terry-

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:45:10 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

I don't understand that whole atmosphere fighter/space fighter thing.
If it was me I'd use a TL12 MBT, which (under GT at least) has a top speed
of 600 mph, 4500 mile sensor range, and a fusion gun with a 50 mile range.
Scratch one F22, or a whole squadron of 'em. :)

Terry-

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:39:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

In mail you write:

>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> Note that the type of fusion described is "Inertial Confinement" fusion,
>>> whereas the fusion usually associated with the Traveller concept is
>>> "magnetic confinement" fusion, like what is done here at MIT.
>>
>>And then there's "electrostatic confinement". There was an article
>>about that in Analog a while back. Cute idea, based on *old*
>>technology.
>
> Just to set my own record straight, the type of fusion was not "inertial
> confinement" in the sense that it is not placed in that category of fusion
> science.  I couldn't get a straight (i.e.layman's) answer out of my sources
> here as to what kind of fusion it was, given the choices, but I found out
> that much.

Any chance it was what the Analog article described?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:40:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The USS North Carolina as an ED-6 (Re: max accel)

In mail you write:

>>The USS North Carolia (BB55) "The ShowBoat".  (Have spec book in hand)
>>
>>728 feet long.
>>108 feet Beam.
>>35 feet draft.
>>
>>Crew 2,2339 (144 officers/2,195enlisted)
>>
>>Displacement over 40,000 tons!  (Ship displacement has a different meaning
>>than Traveller displacement.)
>
> [...]
>
>>Now some Guestimates.  The above numbers for size deals with the waterline.
>>More than half the ship is above the water so the aproximate volume is
>>around 800000+ cubic meters. (I've been aboard her it's probably a lot 
> more.)
>
>
> Hmm. Your guestimate is off by at least factor of ten, unless I miss my
> guess. If she displaces 40,000 tons of water, then she pretty much masses
> 40,000 tons. I'm pretty sure that an armored battleship is going to have a
> higher density than 1 ton per 20 cubic meters.
>
> Lets look at it another way.
>
> Using your numbers, let's pretend the North Carolina is a box 728 feet
> (approximately 220 meters) long, 108 feet wide (33 meters or so), and 90
> feet tall (2 x draft and then some, about  27 meters). This would give her
> a volume of  (220 x 33 x 27) 196,020 cubic meters, or about 14,000
> displacement tons in HG terms. About the size of a small Imperial escort
> destroyer.

A useful "checkpoint". From something I was reading recently, I got the
volume of a Space Shuttle external tank. In Traveller terms, it's about
189 DT.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:48:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote

In mail you write:

> About two years ago, my wife and I were at fry's Electronics and saw a demo
> of a galvanic computer controller.  You put your finger in a slot, and
> played a skiing game.  Just by thinking "right" or "left" you controlled
> the skier's descent.  I found that jerking my head slightly in the desired
> direction amplified the effect.
>
> On the other hand, the original F-16 had a control stick that was immobile.
>  Since the plane is a fly-by-wire design, there is no reason to physically
> move the stick.  But pilots would wildly overcompensate during maneuvers,
> so a small degree of completely useless give was built into the control
> stick.

And that experience, plus other research is why "force feedback"
controls are such a big thing these days. The "resistance" of the
control provides useful info.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:25:49 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Merchants

Diespamer@aol.com wrote:

>I don't have SJG's merchant book yet, but in my (slowly reviving) campaign,
>I'm leaning towards running the group as merchants.

>I've come up with a few thoughts that I'd like to briefly run by you all:

>(1) Trader's Guild: Sort of like the "Ace Hardware" answer to Home
>Depot/Lowe's. Small merchants band together in order to compete effectively
>vs. the Big Boys. I'm not sure how far to push the "bennies", but the
thought
>was to a clearinghouse for trades/cargo, maybe selling bids on new
prospects,
>some sort of insurance/health insurance, etc.

I've got the book. It discusses PC's pooling their resources to buy A ship,
but I didn't see this idea. (I haven't gotten all the way thru it yet, tho.)

I think the idea is way cool. Far Trader talks about all the different
aspects of running a company, but only real rich PC's could be at the top of
the food chain in a Megacorp. Call it a Combine or Collective or something.
Guild is already used to describe the professional space workers union, (at
least in GT.)

I would think that a group like this might set up shop in one of the
frontier subsectors.  I'd carry it whole hog.  Let the Combine hire some
ground agents to set up cargoes with the brokers, just like the big boys,
maybe even get a semi-regular contract with IISS to carry mail, when the
liners are overbooked.

It would be a good way for a PC owned ship to do some real merchant prince
roleplaying without always being a jump away from bankruptcy and the repo
man.

To make it interesting I'd make members keep their ships to a higher
standard than the typical trader. After all with a steady source of income
the ship's owner should be able to afford all those survival kits that are
suppose to be aboard for each passenger and crew member.  After all Ace
makes sure that their members maintain a certain minimum standard to bear
the Ace Hardware name.

Ace is the trademark of some company, whose name I don't know. I'm sure all
rights are reserved. :)

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:40:47 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re:Merchant

>I'm also wondering about the Thieve's Guild (although I would hate to
>inflame the pirates discussion again!).

Makes a lot of sense to me.  In the days of sail pirates on our mudball
mostly were supported either directly or indirectly by opposing governments.
Even today modern pirates scuttle the small craft that they rob, unless they
have a backer with the resources to forge or buy registration and ownership
papers.

A major criminal organization with an army of crooked lawyers (oxymoron),
forgers and perhaps even a few friends in a sector or Dominion might not
only be able to dispose of hot spacecraft, but might even have a shipyard
somewhere that could modify those "harmless" merchants into bad-ass raiders,
without getting quickly shut down by the IN or IISS.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:24:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

In mail you write:

>>1.  Don't assume that a ship accelerates for the entire trip out.
>>Generally speaking, a ship will accelerate for the first half of the
>>journey, and decelerate for the second half, thus entering jumpspace
>>with little or no relative velocity.  The reson for this is simple.  If
>>you enter jumpspace moving like a bat out of Hell, you reenter normal
>>space moving like a bat _into_ Hell.  Since you can't see ahead of time
>>what might be in your way, this is generally considered to be a _bad_
>>idea.
>
> I'm sorry, but this is patently ridiculous.
>
> If, as you assume, you conserve your velocity when entering jump space, you
> will never get to the destination you are aiming for, because the relative
> velocity between your ship and the target system is going to be _huge_ , even
> assuming that you have cancelled your velocity relative to your own system.
>
> Near C rocks ?
> Try a near C jump torpedo.

Sorry, but relative velocities between stars are *way* under c. Try
10-100 km/sec. *Maybe* 1000 km/sec in unusual situations. These are
velocities a ships drive can easily counter.

Also, consider this. If the relative velocity between two stars is 1%
of c, then in 362 years, they'll have moved an entire *parsec* with
respect to each other. Since the maps of the Imperium and surrounds
show the same stellar positions on maps that span multiple *thousands*
of years, that means that the average relative velocities must be less
than half a parsec in 4000 years.

Half a parsec is approximately 100,000 AU. So we get a velocity of less
than 25 AU/year. 1 AU is approximately 150 million km. So we get less
than 3.75 billion km/year. Which reduces to about 120 km/sec. QED.

120 km/sec is about 3 hours and 20 minutes of acceleration at 1g.
During which time the ship covers 720,000 km. Which isn't that far from
the 100 diameter limit of some planets.

So if the velocity diff between the start and destination is 120
km/sec, you could just make a run to jump with constant accel in the
proper direction and come out more or less at rest with respect to the
destination system. 

Of course, if you are at rest with respect to the *star*, you are
moving at 20-40 km/sec with respect to the planet. But that's a minor
correction. And since exit time from jump can vary by a number of
hours, and the planet is moving, you aim for were it would be at the
"median" time, plus some offset so that you don't wind up sitting dead
in space in "front" of the planet if the time is off a bit.

So conserving velocity can be done, and merely adds a bit of extra
flavor to the game. Heck, I can see situations when a ship *wants* to
exit at high speed. A scout making a recon run during a war, for
example. Just offset the course so that he *should* miss the planet and
any satellites, and jump in with a high velocity in the "wrong"
direction. He'll go zipping by faster than anybody can catch him, and
be able to save his manuevering capacity for dodging lasers and PAWs.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:51:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

In mail you write:

>
> Hello, I've been reading the posts on and off for a few years.
> I play MT, and am wondering how to calculate the distance from a planet
> to 10 diameter, as well as 100 diameter (safe jump point). I thought
> about multiplying the diameter of the planet by 10, and then by 100...
> but when I look at the transit times (travel time)  charts in the
> Imperial Encyclopedia, it dosen't seem to jive. Anybody has any idea???

The charts *may* be based on accelerating until you are halfway there
and then decelerating from there to the limit, so you arrive "at rest".
Or they may be based on accelerating all the way, so you arrive moving
like a bat out of hell. The two situations give *very* different
answers. 

Also, you have to remember that a ship launching from the surface of
the planet starts at 1/2 diameter. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:38:14 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Spofulam?

I tend to drop into my best "Disney Italian" (see "Lady and the Tramp") and
roll the whole name out...

 Fah-MEE-leh SPOH-foo-Lam

GC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:18:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

In mail you write:

> From what I recall reading, you can gain energy from fusion reactions
> all the way up to Iron (similarly, you can gain energy from fission
> reactions of elements heavier than Iron).  A fusion reactor designed for
> optimal efficiency of reactive mass could do so, although I would
> suspect that diminishing returns would discourage most of the
> higher-level fusion reactions.  Helium, OTOH, would likely still provide
> a sufficiently energetic fusion reaction to be worth exploiting (at
> least at higher TLs).

 4H-> 1He4 +.7%of mass in energy
56H->1Fe56 +1% of mass in energy

So as you can see, we get 70% of the energy in the H->He step. Given
the temperatures and pressures required, the rest of the steps are
*definitely* not worth it. 

The second step tends to be:
	3He4->1C12 + .03% of mass in energy
As you can see, it yeilds less than 1/20th of the energy that the first
step yeilds.

The C-N-O cycle (Bethe Solar Phoenix) may yeild more, but I'm a bit too
tired to calculate that. Things *definitely* go downhill after that. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:33:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

In mail you write:

>> Douglas Glatz writes:
>>
>> The byproduct depends on the type of fusion reaction being caused.  For
>> hydrogen fusion, it is typically helium and free neutrons.  The quantity
> of
>> helium is quite low, and is probably removed by the power generation
> process;
>> if you want a closed system, a typical plant can probably store ten years
> of
>
> Except we are talking about pumping in *tons* of Hydrogen - shouldn't the
> output, regardless of the actual element, be equal to the input?

Depends on which version of Traveller you are talking about. A ton of
hydrogen should produce around 600 billion GigaJoules of energy. Most
traveller reactors aren't that efficient. Even so, just about all of
them have the *powerplant* using quite small amounts of power. It's the
jump drives that use tons of LH2.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:38:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

In mail you write:

> Since a ton of hydrogen, fused, is equivalent to a gigaton nuclear
> weapon, and with a 0.1% inefficiency (wildly optimistic) will
> instantly vaporize the ship, some of us don't believe that jump fuel
> is fused (or if it is fused, it isn't fused in the reactor, but by
> some esoteric jump-space phenomenon).  For the most part, fusion
> plants in Traveller should mostly output raw hydrogen, since they use
> orders of magnitude more fuel than can possibly be accounted for by
> their power output.

Of course, this means that with some creative engineering, you could
run this "exhaust" thru the scoop & purifier setup and recover the
unfused hydrogen for re-use. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:47:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles

In mail you write:

> IMTU thrusters work the same way as a gondola in venice:
> The gondolier pushes with his stick against the bottom thus using the
> rest of the planet as reaction mass. As this effect upon earth might be
> to small to be measured, this method might be described as being
> reaction less.

Alas, pushing against a planet has a problem. The faster you are moving
relative to it, the more push it takes to increase your velocity
(conservation of energy). A few years back we worked out the applicable
equations. It's a fun concept, but bear *no* resemblance to the way
thrusters are described as working. 

> Thrusters push against the structure of space-time, thus using the rest
> of the universe as reaction mass. IMTU this causes some ripples in
> space-time (small gravitational waves) which can be sensed by
> densitometers.

This has the same problem as the above. Conservation laws *require*
that the amount of energy required go up as the square of the velocity.
So whatever amount of energy it takes to get you to 1 km/sec, it take
*4* times that to get to 2 km/sec and *9* times as much to get to 3
km/sec. Thus you rapidly run into diminishing returns.

Thrusters as described in Traveller are flat out impossible. They let
you get energy for free. There are several ways of using thrusters to
build a perpetual motion machine.

Reaction drives are far more efficient than the "real" thrusters I
described above. This is because they push against their own exhaust,
which always starts out at rest with respect to the ship. Thus it
always take the same energy to accelerate. Only problem is when you run
out of fuel. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:45:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

In mail you write:

> I just had bad thoughts...would the gearheads and RW physicists on the list
> please instruct me?
>
> What is the byproduct of a fusion reaction? Helium?

It depends on the reaction. Some produce helium 4, some produce tritium,
some produce helium 3. The ones that produce H3 or He3 tend to also
produce protons or neutrons. This is a real nuisance, especially the
neutrons. 

> How is it removed from RW reactors?

It isn't removed from current reactors. The reactions don't last long
enough. So the plasma is just allowed to disperse.

> How will it be removed when a self-sustaining reaction is started?

Actually, that's a misconception about fusion. Unlike fission reactors,
there's no such thing as a "self-sustaining" reaction outside of stars.
Instead, what you have is a reaction that can continue as long as the
reactor provides the proper conditions (mostly electromagnetic forces
to keep the temp and pressure high enough). Kill the power to the
confinement fields, and the plasma will dissipate rather than explode.
The fusion reaction will stop dead, and the plasma will expand until it
hits the reactor walls, where it'll cool *rapidly*. You'll get some
*nasty* "scorching" of the reactor vessel. Maybe even some moderate
damage. But it *won't* go "boom". 

Also, some reactor types (inertial confinement) don't even *try* to
create a continous reaction. Instead they use lasers or particle beams
to implode fuel pellets. This momentarily creates the required temp and
pressure for fusion, and in that moment most of the fusibles in the
pellet will fuse, the plasma disperses, and another pellet is dropped
in. Repeat indefinitely. The radiation (and possibly the heating from
the plasma expanding) are used to generate power.

In a magnetic or electrostatic reactor, the reaction is more or less
continuous. The fields are such that they'll confine the plasma that is
being fused. With a bit of creative engineering, you can direct the
"waste" out of the reactor to where it can be dumped. But do keep in
mind that the *amount* of waste is quite small. 

> What exactly is plasma?

The fourth state of matter. Solid, liquid, gas, plasma. A plasma
consists of free atoms, somewhat like a gas. But the atoms are not
grouped into molecules, and are at least partially ionized. That is,
they are missing at least *some* of the electrons from their outer
electron shells. The stripped electrons are floating more or less
freely thru the plasma. 

The most commonly seen plasmas are those in neon (*not* fluorescent)
lights. That space inside the tube that is glowing is a plasma.

Just as it requires higher temperatures (energy per particle) for a
substance to be a gas than to be a liquid, being a plasma requires even
higher energies. But plasmas are a good example of the difference
between *heat* and temperature. 

A plasma in a sign tube may be at many, many thousands of degrees. But
since the pressure inside is a near vacuum, the total heat content is
miniscule. 

> How would the exhaust of a fusion reactor be removed from a starship
> reactor, or from the starship itself, or would the reactor just be vented to
> vacuum?

Check out how *little* hydrogen is required for power. Approximately
.7% of the mass is converted to energy. 1 ton of hydrogen will
therefore produce 993 kg of waste, and 658e18 Joules of energy.  Except
that Traveller reactors seem to be rather inefficient. :-) So they'll
produce less power for a given amount of hydrogen. Still, the amount of
waste per megajoule will be rather low. 

In J-space, you could dump it back into the fuel tanks after using it
to preheat the incoming fuel. Or you could dump it overboard. In normal
space, dumping it overboard is the easiest.

If you are one of the folks who says that that jump fuel is burned for
energy, then you've got a lot of waste to dump into normal space. If
you think it's used for something else, then that's where the hydrogen
goes, and fusion waste doesn't enter into it.

A fusion rocket just dumps *everything out the tail end after fusing
some of the hydrogen. So it'll have an exhuast of high temp hydrogen
plasma with some helium impurities. It'll be so hot that it'll be
invisible except for a slight violet glow. Most of the radiation will
likely be in the UV and X-ray range.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:11:48 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: ObTraveller

>Spo-fu-lam Spo as in Spot, fu as in Kung, lam as in 'on the', running
>from Ditzie and her toys.

I always say the "fu" as "few", and make it a soft "a" in lam, so it sounds
like :

Spo-few-lum

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #380
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 381



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: ObTraveller
Re: Garbage
Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage
Re: Garbage
ObTraveller
The Bolo books
The Bolo books
Re: Garbage
Re: Garbage
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Spofulam?
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter
Re: World Builder 4.0
Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote
Re: GT: Ship insurance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:16:00 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: ObTraveller

> Spo-fu-lam Spo as in Spot, fu as in Kung, lam as in 'on the', running
> from Ditzie and her toys.
>
> At least that's how _I_ pronounce it.  >>
>
>Ok, what's it mean????

Nothing.  Well, actually it probably does mean something, that's probably
quite rude, but as far as Traveler is concerned, it's the family name of a
group of, er, shall we say, "talented" weapon designers who are
chronologically challenged and extremely dangerous to be in the same sector
as.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:30:59 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

> >Annic Nova was an unusual case, wasn't it?  Jump projectors are more
advanced
> >tech so have another possible handwave around.
> 
> Well, you have Annic Nova, you have jump projectors, you
> also have being able to get jump energy from black globe
> projectors, they all point the same way.  I would say that
> to change them all is, in fact, something new.

Jump energy from black globes is a whole 'nuther debate.  The Jumpspace
article would seem to indicate (and the black globe issue would probably
support) that lhyd isn't needed, especially if antimatter power is available.
But that rationale, you could possibly transmit power to another ship and get
the same "jump station" effect, couldnt u?  BTW, has power transmission (from
satellites) been addressed anywhere?  I remember reading bout it in a few
places of science fiction.

Jump projectors have never been dealt with by FF&S standards.  Deciding on
their operation is difficult when we don't have specifics on their
composition, size, mass, etc.  A reasonable debate about that requires a more
in-depth discussion on them, period.  Annic Nova is an odd duck, like
Leviathan.

> >I don't know of anything saying if less than max jump is undertaken.  I
> >presume there might be something in Supp 7,but from Douglas' post a couple
> >days back, I doubt it.
> 
> Well, I don't know enough about Gazelle.  I have supplement 7
> and I'll look when I get home.  However, the restriction that
> you can only use drop tanks for part of your fuel would, indeed,
> seem to be new (in addition to the points above).

We're only told (to my knowledge) what drop tanks do w/ max jump and my theory
on them saves their operation, though the economic concerns for them remain,
for you.

> >Do you see what that means?  NOTHING says exactly what fuel goes to where.
> 
> Well, in fact you have the aforementioned and things like the
> fact that the original CT ships used the same power plant for
> jump drives and everything else.

Original CT (book 2? HG?) is so abstract, that it makes a look into the
workings of jump drives and jump theory difficult, at best.  YMMV. 

> I think drop tanks fit in with how jump was described (with the
> addition that they allowed fuel to be used before jump).  However,
> I also think that insuficient thought was given to their impact on the
> background, which is non-trivial.

Their time of introduction and the uncertainty about them alleviates this.
You may well be right, but they dont' *have to* have the catastrophic effect
on economics unless u want them to.  Perhaps they *should* have that effect,
anyways.

> > If they're "official" what does that impact your campaign?
> 
> Let me ask you, if they were an option rule, what does that impact
> _your_ campaign.  The problem with them as an official rule
> is that they have profound implication for the background which
> means they either take over the progress of the timeline, or
> you have to introduce them and then have their uses be inexplicitly
> ignored by almost everyone (even while PC are running arounds
> showing what can be done with them) and that impacts suspension
> of disbelief.

Drop tanks have always been an asterisk in Traveller ship design.  Their
application in that substandard ship is hardly the catastrophic thing you
proclaim it as.  There is only a 'profound implication' if you want there to
be one.  I've always seen them as a marginal technology in a marginal ship
design, but then I (nor my players) had preconceptions on the operation of J-
drives, either.  It seems to me like a strawman, though it's possible I'm
reading more into it than you intend.  Do you have any PCs running around in
Gazelles?  How many times are Gazelles encountered?  Their operation is
something intended as innovative, but hardly with a clear advantage to it's
usage, especially if there seems to be some danger to the ship their used on
(as the TNS entry indicates).

> >Why should that be wrong if the things are discovered at TL-15?
> 
> The problem is that, unless you want to have the question
> "why isn't this being used" hanging over everything, you have
> to fully explore the consequences (failing to do that is one

Because there's no significant advantage to their usage, and even if there is
political and economic considerations can keep an innovative and superior
technology stigmatized and non-utilized.  Because there's a possibility (or
threat or proganda) of danger to the ship (and thus it's crew) using them.
Linked with the above point.

> of the causes of a background with holes in it and a "hokey"
> feel).  This a) is a lot of work, b) if it is handled badly
> it can introduce other things that are hokey, c) exploring
> all the consequences of this can hijack the plotline from
> more interesting things (there really is a limit to the

C'mon.  That's just silly.  Do your PCs run a shipyard?  Do they get custom
designs commissioned?  By a starport even capable of doing drop tanks?  Just
because a couple gazelle's come in and do their thing, what are the players
going to notice?  They might fear their bombs.  They might think their just
plumbed fuel tanks or something that have been dropped.  The gazelle is hardly
going to cause a drop tank flourishing or panick.  It's fairly easy to say
there's a reason why the use of drop tanks is limited to the gazelle?

> >  I presume you
> >game in the Spinward Marches, a backwater.  They won't come in common 
> > usage for a long time in the toolies.
> 
> It is not _that_ much of a backwater.  It can make them (gosh, they
> were first made localy weren't they?) and they will save people
> in the Marches just as much money.

Sure it is, at least compared to the Core.  The players will never see the
result, as on the Imperiums scale and rate of movement and "age of sail" feel,
it could be hundreds of years before they make their way into common usage.
It's only a problem if u want it to be (or have some interest in getting rid
of them).

> >> If you drop the instant consumption model, you do have problems
> >> with various areas (like the presence of jump projectors at
> 
> >Solved by virtue of a 'higher-tech' handwave.  In addition, you get to keep
> >the canon Gazelle.
> 
> Well, sure, you can try and handwave new technology.  However,
> too many handwaves make things hokey and each handwave has
> the problem of possible future consequences.  I think not
> having drop tanks (given how little was written about them)
> is a smaller change than fussing with new restrictions on
> them, dealing with how it affects black globes, jump
> projectors, economic changes, etc.

Jump projectors, not drop tanks, are the hokey new technology.  How do they
work, based on your model of jump drive?  Who knows.  Have they *ever*
appeared in one of your campaigns to be a consideration?  It's ancients
technology and Clarke's Law applies.  Black globes have big problems on their
own, and transfering the energy to jump dooms most jump theories.  Economic
changes.  You could have a beef here.  It's ignoring it in a really sad way
IMO, as there's plenty of ways to rationalize how it will never have an effect
in your campaigns time period.  It's hardly going to go against the inertia of
established ship building interests, much less Vilani culture.  It's not going
to pop up and be the rage in starship design in the forseeable future.

> >Ignoring the economic issues by simply abolishing drop tanks seems nothing
> >more than sticking one's head into the sand.
> 
> If you abolish them, there are no economic issues.  The
> economics were written without them in mind.  (In GT, drop
> tanks would mean revamping significan portions of Far Trader).

Look at the way you deal with the problem.  You can't believe they have an
instant effect.  Given the date of their introduction (presuming early 1100s),
it'll be decades, if not centuries before they make a widespread appearance.
I'm not sure on the scale of Far Trader, as I don't have it, but don't see how
it would affect free traders, in particular, much less anything less than a
megacrop, in general,  before the centuries hash mark.  It's not a concern.  I
wonder why you're against them so, as none of the reasons you've given will
have any effect on campaigning unless u want it to.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:30:53 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage

> Is their a OTU jump theory? or is everything we are talking about just
> speculation. I've seen different theory's, with hydrogen bubbles and
> lanthanum grids, capacitors and sinks, etc...

I know there's a Jumpspace article in one of the JTAS by one Marc Miller that
lays out the basics.  GDW always kept an emphasis on "Lanthanum Coils" and the
Jumpspace article does talk about a grid of some kind being present in a
"strong hull."  Jump takes a week on average (+/- 10%, though that varies too
usually expressed as 6-8 days, for simplicity).  Jump drives consume liquid
hydrogen, the exact use of which is the subject of enormous debate, as there
hasn't been anything proclaimed from on-high.  

DGP, for some reason, put the emphasis on the grid half heartedly mentioned in
the Jumpspace article and completely ignored the coils.  This has become a
popular view, due to the popularity of the Starship Operators Manual to its
owners.  The fuel is all guzzled in a "high efficiency" reactor (for some
reason unusable as a power system for an incredibly powerful weapon) which is
the "drive."

The original FF&S said that the fuel, collectively, had uses as "fuel,
coolant, and displacement mass" and leaves all mention out of jump grids, as
everything by GDW does.  Coils were again mentioned, though not in FF&S, as
they were in the Library Data and Imperial Encyclopedia.

FFS2 has the hydrogen being used to maintain a jump bubble that keeps out
jumpspace (which in the Jumpspace article is purely done by the hull grid.
Lanthanum grids are again present, and I see no mention of coils at all.  

So, in short, no official theory.  IMO DGP and FFS2 went too far in explaining
something while FF&S' is easily malleable into others (though I believe GDW
mentioned somewhere that the SoM wasn't accurate).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:07:47 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Note that the first part of the following is based on the Gazelle as
originally presented in JTAS 4

>That's not how it works, though.  By CT standards, if the Gazelle keeps its
>drop tanks, it can do Jump 4, completely draining all tankage (drop tank and
>internal).   If drop tanks are dropped before jump, J-5 and everything is
gone

No, if the tanks are dropped it can do Jump 6.

>(drop tanks consumed before drop?

Yes. As the write up for the Gazelle states "The ship has high capacity
accumulators in it's jump drive, and completely burn it's fuel prior to jump,
storing the energy while the tanks are jettisoned."

Note that the L-Hyd tanks represent _all_ of the Gazelles fuel tankage except
for a small amount of internal
tankage used for the Manueveur drive.

The book also states " but the tanks must be replaced before the ship can jump
again"

>Or internal consumed and/or transferred to
>the J-drive and drop tankage transfered to internal?)  No drop tanks at all?
>J2, all internal tankage.
>I don't know of anything saying if less than max jump is undertaken.  I
>presume there might be something in Supp 7,but from Douglas' post a couple
>days back, I doubt it.

As written in JTAS 4, the Gazelle can jump anywhere between Jump 1 and Jump 4
with it's tankage intact, it can jump up to jump 6 by dropping it's L-Hyd
tanks, but it can then not jump again.

There is _no_ concept of moving fuel from external tankage to internal
tankage, because the "external tankage" represents _all_ of the Gazelle's jump
fuel tankage. Note that the "drop-tanks" ae not called drop tanks in JTAS 4,
they are called L-HYd tanks and they are called "droppable in an emergency".
This is actually different from  true drop tanks which are designed to be
disposable and dropped as the mission requires.

Having said all that, the Gazelle as written up in Supplement 9 - Fighting
Ships is completely different.

That claims that the Gazelle has enough internal tankage for Jump 2, and that
it _can_ Jump without the L-Hyd tanks fitted.

So, there is cannon reference for _both_ concepts, and it is contradictory,
unless one handwaves by saying that the Fighting Ships Gazelle is an upgraded
and modified version.  This is suported by the fact that the Gazelle pictured
in Fighting Ships looks quite different and quite a bit fatter than the one
pictured in JTAS 4

Thank yew verra mush

Frankie



















>Do you see what that means?  NOTHING says exactly what fuel goes to where.
>Alot of people have come to conclusions for their own TUs, but to say drop
>tanks are flawed in concept is in error w/o an 'improper' conception of how
>jump is supposed to work (officially, which was left vague).
>
>> >  Drop tanks exist in every
>> >version of Traveller.  They're not just going to go away.
>>
>> Well, first of all, they don't exist in GT (where I think they
>
>LOL.  We don't want to do *that* debate again, do we?  Aaaah, the openings
>people leave...  :-)
>
>> should be a strictly optional rule) or in T5 (which isn't out
>
>If they're "official" what does that impact your campaign?
>
>> yet).  As the MT, CT, and TNE, these are, since they aren't
>> being published, by definition personal traveller universes.
>
>Personal TUs?  T5 is just a fantasy right now.  And G:T is, by self-
>proclamation, "Alternate."  Canon has nothing to do with current status of
>publication or noone would even consider nor care what happened in an obscure
>adventure or "supplement" published over 20 years ago, would they?
>
>> >Nope.  According to my MT Ref's Manual, Dismountable tanks are "fixed and
>> >semi- permament" and (the exterior ones) require two weeks to be
>dismounted.
>> >Drop tanks are instant drop.
>>
>> That makes even less sense.  You can explosively blow a tank
>> away in the minutes before jumping, but you if you want to b
>> olt it you need 2 weeks???
>
>LOL.  Don't tell me about it.  I didn't write MT!  I'm still glad theyr'e
gone
>from TNE, though.  ;-)  I would advise checking what dismountable tanks are,
>though, as you don't seem to have drawn an accurate recollection on them.  I
>had to look in my MT Ref's to find out as they're not in FF&S.
>
>> Mostly the former, even if you arbitrarily say they can only provide
>> some fraction of the fuel (which seem hokey to me) you will still
>> have every ship that can using them.  Any traffic along a
>> major trade route (important worlds and all the one that lie
>> between them) should be dominated by a system of jump tanks
>> (whether they are ships that use them to replace all or 1/2
>> their fuel).
>
>Why should that be wrong if the things are discovered at TL-15?  I presume
you
>game in the Spinward Marches, a backwater.  They won't come in common usage
>for a long time in the toolies.  If u're running a campaign in the Core
>(anyone??), then u might have problems.  Given the date of the TNS entry, I'd
>say before 1120 or so, they're only gonna be seen amongst the Imperial
>military and the megacorp bulk freighters.  Neither of these should impact
>YTU, necessarily.  Does tech stand still in YTU?  A stagnant lack of
>technological development and/or innovation?  Why shouldn't drop tank ships
>come to dominate Imperial space by 1200 (assuming the Rebellion, Hard Times,
>and Collapse didn't wreck said Imperial space)?  :-)  What's wrong w/ things
>developing and growing and changing, just like Real Life (tm)?  Especially if
>it's not going to do anything to your campaign, even over the long term, as
>campaigns go?
>
>> As to your "correcting" the theory, I don't really see it as
>> solving the problems (unless you were talking about some that
>> I missed).
>
>If your J-theory doesn't say everything is instantly consumed (which I don't
>find substantiated by canon, though I don't have 20 years of presumption
>weighing in), drop tanks aren't anything but a marginal technology.
>
>> >The only problems w/ drop tanks (aside from eventually sundering economic
>> >assumptions), is the issue that is only a problem if you're the "instant
>> >consumption" model of J-drive.
>>
>> If you drop the instant consumption model, you do have problems
>> with various areas (like the presence of jump projectors at
>
>Solved by virtue of a 'higher-tech' handwave.  In addition, you get to keep
>the canon Gazelle.
>
>> higher TLs).  Though I think the economic issues are far greater.
>
>Ignoring the economic issues by simply abolishing drop tanks seems nothing
>more than sticking one's head into the sand.   I don't mean that offensively,
>but there shoudl be a better way to accomidate previously published material
>than somethign so extreme (economic regions... a powerful lobby in the
>Imperial Court against the drop tank manufacterers, etc.  Political and
>economic backlash, etc etc).  Maybe you have alot invested in your particular
>theory of jump drive...  I really doubt how that could be applicable to drop
>tanks having a catastrophic effect on your campaigning.
>
>
>Gary
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:24:58 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: ObTraveller

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> >Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?)
> 
> Relating to Traveller.  Sorry.  It's short for "obligitory Traveller
> connection/reference/desperate attempt to get back on topic."

Oh, and there I was hoping it would turn out to be some cool classical
reference, like "obiter" (Latin, adverb, "by the way", "incidentally"),
or "ob" (Latin, preposition, "towards" or "for the sake of").  

- --Glenn

Obscurum per obscurius.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 00:37:44 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: The Bolo books

> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> Subject: Re: Atmospheric Fighters

> Julian wrote:
> >Sounds kinda like the Hellbore weapon from the Bolo books.
> 
> The Bolo books - this name sounds familiar. Are these ones in which there
> are huge sentient tanks, a la Ogre? If so, the books are written by William
> Keith (his webpage can be accessed from my Jump Points page). Contains cool
> pics of said tanks, by Bill himself (a Trav Great Old One ;-).

The Bolo books were not written by William Keith, but by Keith Laumer. 
They do deal with large AI-equipped tanks, and are excellent reading.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 00:42:05 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: The Bolo books

> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>

> >Julian wrote:
> >>Sounds kinda like the Hellbore weapon from the Bolo books.
> >
> >The Bolo books - this name sounds familiar. Are these ones in which there
> >are huge sentient tanks, a la Ogre? If so, the books are written by William
> >Keith (his webpage can be accessed from my Jump Points page). Contains cool
> >pics of said tanks, by Bill himself (a Trav Great Old One ;-).
> 
> Yup that's the ones.  They were actually created by Keith Laumer, but it's
> a _very_ shared universe.  William Keith is one of the author's who write
> in it, and has written some of my favorite Bolo books.

It appears that my previous message reflected an incomplete
understanding.  I didn't know that anyone other than Laumer had written
in that universe; now I have to go find some of books written by others
(I'm sure I've read all of Laumer's a few times).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:45:14 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:19:23 -0500, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>> Well, you have Annic Nova, you have jump projectors, you
>> also have being able to get jump energy from black globe
>> projectors, they all point the same way.  I would say that
>> to change them all is, in fact, something new.

>Excuse me if I butt in here with a little information (along the lines of
>a little
>knowledge being a dangerous weapon).  My only reference to jump projectors
>is in
>the MT Ref's manual.
>Jump Projector: Jump projectors induce a jump field around the target,
>causing it
>to misjump. Available at very high Tech Levels. [TL 21]

>Now, if I may interpret this... suppose that means that you can hit a ship
>attempting to jump with a jump projector.  This would screw up the jump,
>causing a
>misjump.  The jumping ship still uses all of its regular jumping
>procedures, it
>just misjumps.  Nothing in the description precludes the limitation on jumping
>vessels only.

It says that the jump projectors induce the jump
field, not disrupt one being produced by the target ship.

As to what you need to do solve the problem, making drop
tanks use some fuel only partially solves the problem of their
impact on the background and trying to tweak all the other
bit of the background to justify it is, IMO, not worth it.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:47:01 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

>As to what you need to do solve the problem, making drop
>tanks use some fuel only partially solves the problem of their
>impact on the background and trying to tweak all the other
>bit of the background to justify it is, IMO, not worth it.

I will comment that, if you really want drop tanks in your
campaign (though I think it is a mistake to think that
having a certain technology will make a game more "fun")
then you are better off just saying "they exist, don't
look behind the curtain".
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 00:48:49 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/31/99 12:28:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> wmacdude@concentric.net writes:
>
> << With the wife's destruction of our marriage I figured to be closer to
>  family.
>
>  On a brighter note I actually played in my first Trav game in years
>  ( 3 years ) last sunday. >>
>
> Oh well; you got to take the bad with the good. Hang in there...


Tied that knot a week ago, it's still holding. My grip thou... 8-)
- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 00:48:45 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Spofulam?

> From: GypsyComet@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Spofulam?
> 
> I tend to drop into my best "Disney Italian" (see "Lady and the Tramp") and
> roll the whole name out...
> 
>  Fah-MEE-leh SPOH-foo-Lam

Shouldn't it be Disney French (famille being a French word, not the
Italian familia)?  Fah-MEE-ye SPOH-fu-lam

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 00:50:17 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

Brannon W. Boren wrote:

> > << With the wife's destruction of our marriage I figured to be closer to
> >  family.
> >
> >  On a brighter note I actually played in my first Trav game in years
> >  ( 3 years ) last sunday. >>
>
> If your Ex is anything like mine (and she sounds like she is), trading her
> in for a Traveller game is an *excellent* bargain.  ;)

Yup, she is enough reason to start Travelling...

- --
Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:51:51 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: 10 diameter, 100 diameter

Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:24:40 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Sorry, but relative velocities between stars are *way* under c. Try
>10-100 km/sec. *Maybe* 1000 km/sec in unusual situations. These are
>velocities a ships drive can easily counter.

Just a clarification.  Stars in our galaxy have relative velocities
way under the speed of light.  Stars 1/2 way across the universe
are moving away from us at a fair fraction of the speed of
light.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 04:02:59 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: World Builder 4.0

Stuart Ferris wrote:

> V4.0 of my World Builder Deluxe software is now available. It has a
number
> of significant improvements over V3.0, namely:-

I've just downloaded the software and tried it out.
Very impressive!

However, a few nit picks:

When inputing a UWP, I can't go back when I've made a mistake.

How to select stars in unclear.

Here is my test case (From First Survey):
Kuue Ir/ 2634 Antares (a world I've unimaginatively renamed Aquana and
have developed a little bit to serve as a homeworld for a pair of
characters
IMTU).

B99AABB-B  Ind Wa Hi  920  F1 D M8 D

What I can't figure out is how to input the stars.
If I select D for size, I can only select DF, and not F1 (which is
available at
other
size settings), and the same goes for the M8.

I don't have WBH, so maybe there is some glitch between it and FS.

Have you thought about a Galactic 2.4 file output?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/




- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:05:22 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: mental control or hand me that thar remote

 shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> On the other hand, the original F-16 had a control stick that was immobile.
>>  Since the plane is a fly-by-wire design, there is no reason to physically
>> move the stick.  But pilots would wildly overcompensate during maneuvers,
>> so a small degree of completely useless give was built into the control
>> stick.
>
>And that experience, plus other research is why "force feedback"
>controls are such a big thing these days. The "resistance" of the
>control provides useful info.

ISTR that the stick axis is sllightly inclined from fore/aft as they
discovered a tendancy to push off the true axis of the aircraft because it
isn't central? Anyone here driven one who could confirm this?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 05:24:07 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Ship insurance.

>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:49:01 +0200
>From: "Christian K. Nielsen" <lupaerian@get2net.dk>
>Subject: GT: Ship insurance.
>
>Just one thing that has struck me so far. Ship insurance is mentioned a
>couple of times in the book, and it only seems reasonable to get your ship
>insured, especially if you took a loan in the bank to pay for it. Sadly, I
>can't seem to find a formula for how much to pay in insurance, nor what
>exactly the insurance would cover. 
>
>So, anyone out there who knows the answer or cares to try summoning one out
>of jumpspace?

Oops. Mea culpa -- must have gotten lost in the shuffle.

Okay, first draft:

GURPS Space, p. 38, says insurance costs 10% of vessel cost per year -- go
with that for now. This is presumably insurance against loss, and pays the
replacement cost of the vessel. It would also include liability insurance
for accidents incurred onboard, and coverage for loss of or damage to
cargo. Losses due to gross negligence or dereliction on the part of Captain
or crew will not be covered, however.

Ships with a mortgage are already paying the bank's insurance as part of
the mortgage payment -- if the ship is lost, the bank's investment is
covered. Similarly, if the characters charter (rent) a ship, the owner has
factored his insurance costs into the charter party.

Ships are not required to have insurance. Large merchant lines often
"self-insure": that is, they have enough cash in their operating budget to
make up losses out of pocket. Free traders who try this trick had probably
better have a certified escrow account at a well-known bank, or they will
have a hard time convincing shippers and passengers to trust them.

I have some historical loss rates and such, and I just picked up a big
thick book on general insurance and risk. I'll see if I can't cobble
together a better answer in time for the "Designers' Notes" article.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #381
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 382



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Naval architecture terminology and ObTraveller
Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)
Re: Merchant
re: Jump and Black Globes
re: A way to explain thrusters
Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)
Re: Fleet Ops
re: Jump and Black Globes
Re: ObTraveller
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: ObTraveller
Can TNE's Virus occur in reality?!? (Long)
Jump Projectors...
Science/Tech News Site
Re: Can TNE's Virus occur in reality?!? (Long)
Re: fighters and tanks
Re: Science/Tech News Site
Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)
re: Jump and Black Globes
Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
Re: Jump Projectors...
Re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:42:59 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Naval architecture terminology and ObTraveller

In a message dated 3/31/99 8:36:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jzeitlin@cyburban.com writes:

<< 
 As far as "Head" vs. "Fresher", I suppose it depends on how you
 view the Traveller universe, and what SF you read.  I haven't
 really thought about it, and probably wouldn't be consistent in
 my usages, but I suppose that IMTU the usage would be as follows:
  >>

	IMTU, on the other hand, it's just called The Can

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 06:43:31 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Turning SOs into gamers (was Re: Career/Love/Gaming)

Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> Brannon W. Boren wrote:
> 
> > > << With the wife's destruction of our marriage I figured to be closer to
> > >  family.
> > >
> > >  On a brighter note I actually played in my first Trav game in years
> > >  ( 3 years ) last sunday. >>
> >
> > If your Ex is anything like mine (and she sounds like she is), trading her
> > in for a Traveller game is an *excellent* bargain.  ;)
> 
> Yup, she is enough reason to start Travelling...

Why am I reminded of a certain Harcourt Fenton Mudd, and his wife
Stella?

> 
> --
> Evyn...

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:48:56 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Merchant

In a message dated 3/31/99 11:45:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jcarlino@home.com writes:

<< crooked lawyers (oxymoron), >>

	redundant, rather,  honest lawyer is oxymoron

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:45:26 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Jump and Black Globes

Shawn Campbell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here's the questions:
How much energy is needed from the black globe for a jump? I thought that
was what the fuel was for. Why would you need the fuel if you already have
the energy? Would the jump only consume a part of the fuel? How much fuel
gets used in a jump powered by a black globe? Would the Black globe just
give enough power to  put the ship into jump space, but not enough to keep
the jump field up and cause a mis-jump? Would a jump induced by a black
globe be an automatic misjump or only if it was an unexpected need to jump?
Is the explanation in HG/MT a mistake and the relation of black globes to
jumps different. (Like no fuel is necessary, for example)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In High Guard, your Power Plant needed to provide a certain number of
Energy Points before you could burn your jump fuel and jump. Perhaps
this energy was to prime the capacitors so the rapid jump fuel burn
would go properly, it's hard to tell - but a black globe could provide this
initial energy as well.

Powering your jump from a black globe doesn't save you any fuel, but
it can keep you from having to take weapons and shields off-line in the
heat of battle to bring the jump drive on-line.

DGP's Ship Operator's Manual then seperated the two - they even
presented a situation where a ship lost it's power plant while on a
long, slow vector towards a star. It saved itself with a carefully plotted
in-system jump - they were able to plot the jump so carefully that they
came out sitting still (relative to the local system) at a safe distance,
ready for a tug to come and get them.

I don't have my copies of MT or TNE on hand, and I don't recall their
explanations for this situation.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:58:42 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A way to explain thrusters

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IMTU thrusters work the same way as a gondola in venice:
> The gondolier pushes with his stick against the bottom thus using the
> rest of the planet as reaction mass. As this effect upon earth might be
> to small to be measured, this method might be described as being
> reaction less.

Alas, pushing against a planet has a problem. The faster you are moving
relative to it, the more push it takes to increase your velocity
(conservation of energy). A few years back we worked out the applicable
equations. It's a fun concept, but bear *no* resemblance to the way
thrusters are described as working. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
His example of a Gondolier pushing against a planet wasn't extended
by him to the starship pushing against the planet - the way I read it,
in his TU thrusters push against "space-time" itself. Depending on how
you read relativity, you are never moving relative to space-time at all - you
only move in relation to objects within space-time.

Not that I understand the physics well enough to see what effects this
would have on how thrusters work.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:29:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)

In mail you write:

> At 09:05 PM 3/30/99 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>Ok, what is a gas giant?
>>
>>A big ball of atmosphere that's prone to big mother storms!
>>
>>Atmosphere with serious attitude!
>
> True, but will all the atmosphere be is such turmoil?  I would postulate
> that by the time we will need to answer this question in game time, we will
> have developed some sort of weather radar to determine the clamer spots in
> the GG.  Naturally this is where the defenders might be lurking, but it
> might give a calmer refueling run.

Slight problem. Your skimming run will necessarily be a straight line
thru around 20,000 km of GG atmosphere. It's *really* unlikely that all
of that will be even *relatively* calm. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:13:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fleet Ops

In mail you write:

> If a planet, base, or other effectively immobile target is completely
> undefendable from attacks by starships, then all fleet combats may
> be "Jutland in Space" - you decide the issue ship to ship, no seiges
> are truly possible. That may be what HG is getting at. Accounts of
> the 5th Frontier War seem to indicate that seiges were pretty common,
> so a planet must be able to defend itself somehow. Now all we need
> are rules.

Well, one thing to consider is that with t-plates, you can do some very
strange things.. Stuff like have units "hover" over any point on the
planet's surface.

You can also do "forced orbits". These are where you are using your
drive to accelerate *towards* the planet (or even an empty point in
space) hard enough to let you maintain an "orbit" than is far smaller
than your velocity would otherwise allow. Things like 15-20 minute
"orbits" around an Earthlike planet. 

This lets you stay closer to the planet, be moving fast, and make your
"orbit" hard to predict (a slight change in the direction or amount of
thrust will make *huge* changes in your path). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:09:31 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Jump and Black Globes

At 08:45 AM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>In High Guard, your Power Plant needed to provide a certain number of
>Energy Points before you could burn your jump fuel and jump. Perhaps
>this energy was to prime the capacitors so the rapid jump fuel burn
>would go properly, it's hard to tell - but a black globe could provide this
>initial energy as well.
>
>Powering your jump from a black globe doesn't save you any fuel, but
>it can keep you from having to take weapons and shields off-line in the
>heat of battle to bring the jump drive on-line.
>
>DGP's Ship Operator's Manual then seperated the two - they even
>presented a situation where a ship lost it's power plant while on a
>long, slow vector towards a star. It saved itself with a carefully plotted
>in-system jump - they were able to plot the jump so carefully that they
>came out sitting still (relative to the local system) at a safe distance,
>ready for a tug to come and get them.
>
>I don't have my copies of MT or TNE on hand, and I don't recall their
>explanations for this situation.
>
>Walt Smith
>
        Ok, so what about antimatter?  Do we still need hydrogen in a AM
power-plant vessels?
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:08:24 EST
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: ObTraveller

In a message dated 4/1/99 1:33:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< it's the family name of a
 group of, er, shall we say, "talented" weapon designers who are >>

Ahhhh...like an alien life form- genus Spofulamus Travelleria. I see...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:55:34 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

>A fusion rocket just dumps *everything out the tail end after fusing
>some of the hydrogen. So it'll have an exhuast of high temp hydrogen
>plasma with some helium impurities. It'll be so hot that it'll be
>invisible except for a slight violet glow. Most of the radiation will
>likely be in the UV and X-ray range.

I might be wrong here but...
For any two blackbody radiators the radiation in any given wavelength
segment would be higher in the high temp than in the low temp. So a 300
Kelvin blackbody would radiate far less in the IR than an 1000 000 Kelvin
one but the peak wavelength would be much lower for the high temp one (peak
wavelength inversely proportional to temperature).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:16:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: ObTraveller

Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Spo-fu-lam Spo as in Spot, fu as in Kung, lam as in 'on the', running
> > from Ditzie and her toys.
> >
> > At least that's how _I_ pronounce it.  >>
> >
> >Ok, what's it mean????
> 
> Nothing.  Well, actually it probably does mean something, that's probably
> quite rude, but as far as Traveler is concerned, it's the family name of a
> group of, er, shall we say, "talented" weapon designers who are
> chronologically challenged and extremely dangerous to be in the same sector
> as.

Well, actually, the High Energy Weapons division is the only one that's been
heard from lately, as the originator of the Famille, Rod Elliot, has gone and
done something inexplicable: he graduated and got, like, a job and a life or
something. Ross Coburn says he still plays in his FTF game. I feel for you
Ross, honest I do!

	Hengabar Spofulam, Ditzies older, genetically related family member (the
lines are blurred...it is thought that the Famille Spofulam is the end result
of some seriously illegal experiments.) is the head of a diverse company;
their main money maker is starships. Such as the Moonshine, a perfectly legal,
very high speed, legal, heavily armed, oh did I mention it's actually legal,
starship that is officially on the books as a fast courier. The fact that most
of their customers pay for it with large cargo containers of cash in
untraceable small denominations is entirely coincidental.

There were also designs for a fusion+ powered pogo stick, which under the
right conditions can reach orbital velocity. Kids are advised to use all the
safety measures.

There was also a grav bike, which, with the clearly marked and inexplicably
simple to remove governor, wouldn't kill the rider outright. Without the
governor, most riders had a lifespan of approximately 6.7 seconds. With it
they lived _much_ longer. Often as much as a month!

It is illegal on 365 different Imperial worlds. (at last count)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:08:04 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Can TNE's Virus occur in reality?!? (Long)

For those of you who want a real-world
scientific fact to back up your ruling
that TNE's Virus can exist, read on.

Although I don't (and won't) run a TNE
campaign, this one just blew me away.

- -- quote --

AP Headlines
Thursday April 1 1:20 AM ET

Study: DNA Conducts Electricity

By JEFF BARNARD Associated Press Writer 

Strands of DNA might someday be used as wires
in computer chips and transistors, researchers
reported today in the journal Nature.

Hans-Werner Fink and Christian Schoenenberger
of the University of Basel in Switzerland found
that DNA conducts electricity as well as a good
semiconductor. A semiconductor carries electricity
better than an insulator but not as well as a
conductor like copper.

If DNA strands could be made with a switch to turn
the current flowing through them on and off, they
could be used to build extremely tiny electrical
devices, the researchers said.

Fink said he knows of no metallic wires that can be
made as small or as regular as DNA strands. A strand
is 2 billionths of a meter thick, or 
one-forty-four-thousandths of the diameter of a
medium-size human hair.

DNA strands might even be able to wire themselves
together.

Molecules at the end of DNA strands will link
themselves to certain other molecules, so it might
be possible to create a wiring grid by laying down
these target molecules as terminals and letting
the DNA strands attach themselves, the researchers
said.

Gary Schuster, a chemistry professor at the Georgia
Institute of Technology, said he suspects electrons
flow through DNA much differently than in a wire.
And whether the research will lead to a practical
use of DNA as wiring he called "a wide-open
question."

- -- endquote --


Anyone want to discuss a computer virus
which can affect a human brain? Passed by
psionics and called, say, THE EMPRESS WAVE?!?!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 'hack''hack' 'cough' 'gasp'

um...sorry.

'sigh'

Back to work.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:07:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Jump Projectors...

Here's my Cr0.02 on jump projectors, for what it's worth.

Jump Projectors are TL-21 technology, as far in the future from 3I TL 
as 3I is from our current TL.  It appears to operate by inducing a 
jump field around the target ship, shunting it into jumpspace without 
calculated jump coordinates, thus guaranteeing a misjump.

PLEASE NOTE:  The following explanations address a number of current 
operating models on the function of Jump Space and J-Drives.  While I 
prefer grids myself, I am trying to address all situations.  Nothing 
herein is meant to be taken in any other way except as helpful 
suggestions and possible explanations.  I am in no way questioning 
anyone's TU theory on how J-space/J-drives function, nor attempting 
to impune anyone's TU through making these suggestions.  In short, I 
am not trying to rekindle the Jumpspace Debate again.  Repeat, I 
don't want to start the old Jumpspace Debate again.  With that having 
been said, I move on to the more conceptual aspects of this post.

For Lanthanum Grid fans, the Jump Projector imposes a resonance field 
within the lanthanum-doped grid on the exterior of the ship, opening 
a portal into J-space, and the ship is shifted into a misjump as a 
natural result of that action.  (In the SOpM model, hydrogen is 
not bled off into Jumpspace throughout the jump to maintain the 
field.  Once generated, you're stuck, for better or worse, until you 
emerge at the end of the jump.)

For Lanthanum Coil fans, the Jump Projector imposes a resonance 
field within the Lanthanum Coil, forcing it to generate a premature, 
uncalculated jump field, and shunts the vessel into J-space without a 
predetermined jump vector.  Thus, the target ship is forced into a 
misjump.

For Star Trek techno-babble fans, the Jump Projector induces a fold 
in the sub-space field structure, inducing a temporary wormhole 
which, according to the script, the crew cannot affect or avoid, and 
must spend the next 40-some-odd minutes dealing with.  [Sorry, 
I know it's not Traveller, but I couldn't resist.  ;P]

Problems with these interpretations occur if you subscribe to the 
J-drive model that requires hydrogen to be vented in order to 
maintain the jump field integrity during the week-long trip through 
Jumpspace.  While I have never seen canonical reference to this, 
enough people follow it to make me assume that such exists, so the 
Jump Projector does induce some problems with that model.  Here's a 
kinda cheesy shot at explaining that:

The Jump Projector actually uses Matter Transport to introduce a 
TL-21 microbot to the exterior of the vessel.  The Bot quickly avoids 
detection (using TL-21 Stealth) and accesses the Jump Field 
Projectors via the "small grid of wires" on the outside of the ship.  
Using anti-matter, the bot produces enough energy to induce a Jump 
Field into the coil and/or grid, forcing the vessel into J-space.  
While in J-space, the bot uses anti-matter to generate Hydrogen using 
the Matter Transport technology, thus keeping the field open.  Upon 
arrival at the destination, the bot commits self-destruction, 
removing evidence of its existence from the material universe.

Like I said, my explanation is cheesy, but an explanation, 
nonetheless.  I don't like it, but it was the best I could come up 
with on only ten minutes of thought.  I wouldn't mind hearing 
something better.

Personally, I think of the J-field as pushing the vessel into a 
higher energy state across J-space, and then the vessel returns to a 
ground state over the course of the next week, finally emerging into 
N-space when the vessel is again back to its "ground state."  
Conceptually, it fits my world view better, and I don't have to worry 
about hydrogen supplies throughout the trip.  But that's just me and 
MTU.  In the OTU, it hasn't been established concretely, nor is it 
likely to.  And in YTU, that's your decision. Either way, it's 
all still Traveller to me.  YMMV  :)

Thanks,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:14:52 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Science/Tech News Site

For those of you who want to find news stories on
scientific/technological breakthroughs and advances,
the following site has links to most major news
stories providing these announcements.

http://www.artigen.com/newswire/scitech.html

Use of the site really helps cut down on surftime
while helping me keep up with science/tech progress.

Just trying to "Keep the Flame", folks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:22:27 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Can TNE's Virus occur in reality?!? (Long)

Scary thought.



Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition



On Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:08:04 -0600  "Smart, David J (David)"
<dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>For those of you who want a real-world
>scientific fact to back up your ruling
>that TNE's Virus can exist, read on.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:33:34 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: fighters and tanks

>In that case, what you want is a tank. An airbreathing aerodynamic lift
>vehicle just can't carry the armour to compete with a grav tank; I think
>no-one would argue that grav tanks will beat space fighters of equivalent
>price either.
>
>Bruce

I have a problem with high penetration lasers in an atmosphere; above a
certain power level they'd turn the air into plasma which would be
extremely hard to shine through. GGG has info on this and to me it seems to
rule out lasers as tankbusters. (I'm well aware that high pen lasers are
serious Canon stuff and I wouldn't want to lose them but can somebody come
up with a good handwave why they should work?).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:43:23 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Science/Tech News Site

Another good article....OT - There is a great article in Wired about the 
January ice storm that hit the US East Coast.The author likens it to a 
potential Y2K senario. It was really good.

Another OT Note :) I just picked up the CT Droyne Module and 
the store said they had  a lot of Traveller stuff for anyone looking for 
something...it was:
The Gamer's Realm
2025 Old Trenton Road
West Windsor, NJ 08550
(609) 426-9339 voice
(609) 426-9244 fax
http://www.gamersrealm.com

back to your regularly scheduled thread :)
Mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:13:28 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)

At 10:29 PM 3/31/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> True, but will all the atmosphere be is such turmoil?  I would postulate
>> that by the time we will need to answer this question in game time, we will
>> have developed some sort of weather radar to determine the clamer spots in
>> the GG.  Naturally this is where the defenders might be lurking, but it
>> might give a calmer refueling run.
>
>Slight problem. Your skimming run will necessarily be a straight line
>thru around 20,000 km of GG atmosphere. It's *really* unlikely that all
>of that will be even *relatively* calm. 

Why would it be a straight line?  Certainly they can maneuver, though not
as radically as if they were in space, and if they mapped the GG weather
patterns it should give them a fairly good chance of avoiding the turbulence.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:20:42 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: Jump and Black Globes

At 10:09 AM 4/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>        Ok, so what about antimatter?  Do we still need hydrogen in a AM
>power-plant vessels?

I've always figured out how much energy (In EP or MW for CT or MT) the
capaciters can hold.  The amount of capaciters is based off of the formula
derived from the black globe rules for determining how much energy the Jump
capaciters can hold.  Once that number is generated, I use the rule that
the jump capaciters need to be powered within 30 minutes, so an antimatter
powerplant needs to have twice the hourly output to charge the capaciters.

EX:

Jump Capaciters hold 1000MW of energy
Antimatter PowerPlant to power J-Drive needs to have an hourly output of
2000MW so that the 1000MW can be generated in 1/2 an hour.

YMMV, but it works for me.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:23:35 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles

At 09:47 PM 3/31/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Thrusters as described in Traveller are flat out impossible. They let
>you get energy for free. There are several ways of using thrusters to
>build a perpetual motion machine.

You don't get energy for free.  Energy is still conserved (or at least it
could be, if the numbers in the game system are correct.  I haven't checked
them)  The law of physics you are breaking is conservation of momentum.
That does indeed appear to some from nowhere.  For a possible RL
reactionless thruster, take a look at:

http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/woodward.html



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:28:17 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Projectors...

At 09:07 AM 4/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>The Jump Projector actually uses Matter Transport to introduce a 
>TL-21 microbot to the exterior of the vessel.  The Bot quickly avoids 
>detection (using TL-21 Stealth) and accesses the Jump Field 
>Projectors via the "small grid of wires" on the outside of the ship.  
>Using anti-matter, the bot produces enough energy to induce a Jump 
>Field into the coil and/or grid, forcing the vessel into J-space.  
>While in J-space, the bot uses anti-matter to generate Hydrogen using 
>the Matter Transport technology, thus keeping the field open.  Upon 
>arrival at the destination, the bot commits self-destruction, 
>removing evidence of its existence from the material universe.

This is an interesting idea, but if it is being used as a weapon, why
protect the ship while it is J-Space?  Why not just let the field collapse
and take care of the problem?  After all, if the ship is still intact it
might come back to haunt you later in the conflict.


Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:27:21 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

>Maybe it's just another space opera thingamajig, maybe you're just full of
>hooey.  It's been part of Traveller for a long time and it's not going away.
>What goes on in YTU, I frankly don't really care as we're not talking about
>YTU, but the OTU.  Get it?
>

I see that that is you OPINION.  I design electronic equipment for a living
and I have a pretty good idea of today's reality as far as the design of the
systems that I work with on a dayly basis.  There are curtain physical
realities that are very unlikely to change in any length of time as they are
defined in the media and physics (example the speed on light in a vacume).
All I was trying to do was add a little vera similitude to an otherwise
unbelievable discrition.  Traveller is generally a fairly hard science game
with a minimum of 'magic' gaggets.  That is one of the things that first
drew me to traveller 20 years ago.  It was my intent to help define a system
to alow it's capabilities to be more easily defined in game terms.  It is
obvious that you are not interested in the opinions of others which if true
beggs the question, Why are you on a mail list whose purpose is the free
exchange of ideas about a shared hobby?

Noone has to aggree with me and I am not saying my impressions are what must
be, I am simple stating my opinion as are we all with the posible exception
of MM who can, when he chooses, state the rules but then as GMs we can
change those as well.

>> >That self reconfigurable nanotech might be how it all works.  ;-)
>Remember,
>> >we're talking about TL-15 (a Rampart).  Now, canon says EMS sensors are 
>> >TL10.  That's the 22nd century IIRC.  Come back in a hundred years and tell
>me
>> >that again.  lol
>>
>> 
>> Nanotech is not part of canon.  If it were Traveller's back ground would be
>
>So YOU say.  It's not mentioned but that doesn't mean there isn't room for it
>as long as it doesn't live up to the claims of sci-fi authors (IMTU, this is
>precisely the case).   When you get ownership of the Traveller copyright, I'll
>put more weight into your words (well... probably not). 
>

Why are you being baligerant?  I have not nor do I intend to personally
attack you or your ideals.  I am simple state my oppinion.

I never said that nanotech is not part of the traveller universe.  I said it
was not canon.  I know of no traveller device who's explaination of it's
operation includes nanotech and I was also saying, in my way, that I did not
feel comfortable introducing it as the explaination as I am not one the the
authors of traveller canon.

>> very different.  The laws of cause and effect are immuteable.  If nonotech
>> is available on very limited scale then a variable sensor system would be
>> posible but that would also mean that the sensor could only operate in one
>> band at a time and there would be a delay in band change.
>
>I don't have any problem with that.  Neither does HG or BL w/ 20-30 minute
>turns.
>
>Just what are the GURPSy sensors (PESA and AESA) capable of, especially in
>relation to Traveller sensors?  What bands to they cover and what TL's do they
>become available at?
>

I do not have the book with me but IIRC the technical aspec is avoided by
abstracting it into a game mechanic that give the device a detection number
and targets a modifier based on stealth, size, speed, ect.  Sensors packages
are also for different enviroments which was by basic point.

>> I do not have SoM and you are talking about a very different rampart that I
>> have access to.  6 tons of sensors!  What does that rampart weight?
>
>The Rampart masses 186.52 tonnes in BL.  So are the dimensions mentioned
>acceptable to you, for the capabilities present?  
>

BL?  What is that?  The rampart I am familiar with is out of CTs AHL and
IIRC is not nearly that big.  (30 or 50 tons displacement)  I dought a F15
carries 12000 pounds of sensor equipment.  It's sounds like a lot for an
attrition unit but perhaps this excessiveness is neccessary to explain it's
versitility.

>Nice how you skipped all the other points.  The specifics mentioned in the SoM
>are irrelevant.  The point is that it's canon for space sensors to be

I do not have SoM.  I said so before and I do not feel comforable trying to
discuss something I have never seen.  I can't put your quote into the
context of the large world view.

>effective inside the atmosphere and for the atmosphere/ground sensors to be
>effective in space.  That they're the exact same systems and operating on the
>same principles (whatever they are) must just be a happy coinicidence.
>

And not at all realistic.  If they work the same, an F15 could detect the
apollo in orbit arround the moon with it's radar that can not penetrate the
van allan belts much less the ionosphere and is somehow able to pick up the
returned signal that in well below the noise threshold!

>> >> Sorry, no amount of computer assistance can improve an unaugmented 
>> >>human's data bandwidth.  It can only prioritize that data along preset
>lines.  Ask
>> >> the airforce about it.  They have been fighting this problem for 20+
>years.
>> >
>> >The AF is TL-8.  TL-7 20 years ago.  Like I said, we're talking about a
>> >*TL-15* Rampart.  Reread what I wrote, please.  7 TL's and a few thousand
>> >years give great liberties to science-fiction, no?  ;-)
>> >
>> 
>> No, it does not.  Human bandwidth is limited.  No external computer will
>> improve that unless you invent a mind machine interface that is definately
>> NOT canon.
>
>First read your top quote.   Then read my response.  The things you bring up
>are laughably ludicrous.  Who cares what the TL-8 air force is up to when
>we're talking about tech and people thousands of years further along the
>timeline?  Especially in light that we're talking about a ***TL-15***
>airframed space fighter!   Unless u're changing the frame of the discussion
>again?
>

I did.  I did. No they are real world facts. I do. I did not.  I said the
human bandwidth was fixed without augmentation.  I stated some basic limits
to technology as far as the man machine interface is concurned.  They apply
at all tech levels to an unaugmented human.  That was what I was saying.
That computer power alone will not solve the information overload problem.

>And who says such a mind machine interface isn't canon, anyways?  There are
>these things called "neural jacks" in the cybernetics chapter in FF&S.
>

News to me.  I play CT and GT.  I have FF&S v1 and have read it (never used
it for designs, I got it after GV came out as a source for ideas)but I do
not recall neural jacks.  Also nowhere in any rampart discription have I
seen a note that a neural jack was needed for proper operation.  GV makes
such notes for jacked gear but has not added jacks to the TU AFAIK.

>> >You keep saying that, but I've witnessed so many gaming combats that go
>> >against it.  I'm gonna have to ask you to put up or shut up.  I'll trust
>you
>> >to be honest on your own, since we don't have compatible design systems.
>> >Using GV2, design the best aerospace or atmospheric fighter you can, and
>then
>> >the best space fighter you can.  The original example was TL-9 vs TL-15,
>but
>> >whatever u wanna do (I think u're leaning on TL-15 vs TL-15).  Run a combat
>w/
>> >someone (who's not a moron).  Post us the designs and tell us the result.
>> 
>> 
>> You still do not get it.  I have no intention of doing so and no reason to
>> do so.  It's a basic point of logic not a caparation of game system
>> mechanics.  If the game system does not include stealthy cool air breathing
>
>All I've asked you to do is to put up or shut up, Charles.
>
>I'm not comparing game system mechanics (given the same craft parameters,
>you're likely to see the same thing in every system, though... from Star Wars
>to GURPS to TNE to FUDGE to Alternity).  I've run the combats and seen the
>results quite a few times (particularly TL-9 aircraft vs TL-12 Wildbat space
>fighters).  GURPS has the veneer of being far closer to TNE than any set of
>Traveller, so I'd expect similar (not identical) results.  You're not afraid
>to see your ludicrous assumptions shattered, are you?
>

TL-9 vs TL-12 was not my point.  Also the game mechanic and design system is
being compared wheather you wish to admit it or not sence it is the medium
of the test.  Example:  Try and design a tank using high guard.  Can't be
done.  There are no rules for tanks in HG.  It's a space ship design system.
If there are no rules for ducted fan engines, RAM, Tomahawks, Polaris
missles, exc you can't test your assumptions, you end up testing the game
mechanics.

>> perpulsion systems then you can not even start to make an in game
>> comparison.  In short if the design system was written for space ships you
>> are unlikely to ba able to build a competant air fighter and vice versa.  If
>
>Well, it just happens that I was using the design system for aircraft and the
>designs system for spacecraft that are both in FF&S.  Imagine that.  LOL.  
>

Really, then what is the power to weight ratio of the following real work
systems in FF&S:

Raidial IC fix speed and adjustable prop:
Turbo prop:
Ram jet:
ducted fan jet:
Non jet Ducted fan.

What about the effects of the folowing features:

Super chargers:
Variable pitch turbines:
Stub wings:
Hard points:
Pylons:
RAM:
Thermal masking:


Game systems are inherently limited by what they choose to cover and to what
degree of accuracy and depth.  Game systems are by difinition limited and
the universe is by (some) definitions infinite.

>> If a space war ship beats a air war ship in the air with 'all other things
>> being equall' then you need to fire the air war ship's designer because he
>> is a moron!
>
>It's seems clear you've never run such a combat, nor are willing to.  Nor
>designed either a space fighter nor atmosphere fighter, nor are willing to.
>Very interesting.  
>In short, you're only following your own conception of "logic" to an absurd
>conclusion.  
>

Why do you assume based on limited information drawn from flawed simulations
designed by non experts (There can be no expert of space war as there has
never been one in human experience) that your assumptions are correct?  So
we are dealing with premise, supositions, and logical progressions from them
them, not fact except where we touch on the real world.

My basic premises are these:

1) A system build to operate in an enviroment will generally perform better
in the enviroment it was designed for than one that it was not designed for.

2) A system designed to perform a particular function will generally do that
function better than a system design for many general functions.

3) If for some reason of senergy that the above rules do not apply to a
particular pair of test units being evaluated then the lessons learned in
the evaluation can be used to improve the specialty system to perform better
than the generalist system in the function of the specialty system.  If this
is not posible for what ever reason (ussually money) the specialty system
will be replaced by the generalist system with it's system configure for
optimum performance in the new enviroment.  This is design evolution.

>> I'll counter you proposal.  You design a space capable fighter at our
>> current tech level using any design system you chose and then compare it to
>> a real jet fighter in use today for the purpose of air combat at say 20,000
>> feet. See who wins then.  The air fighter.  Why because of the design weight
>> penalty
>
>LOL.  At our current tech level?  Where did that come from?  We're talking
>about a TL-15 space fighter vs TL-9 air fighter (or TL-15 vs TL-15, as u
>altered it to).  Where did TL-8 come into the picture?  lol.  Or are you
>trying to change the frame of the discussion again?  Or is it time for your
>pill?  I've seen TL-9 air vs TL-12 space numerous times.  TL-15 vs TL-9 will
>be even more lopsided.
>

No, you said that.  I said 'all other things being equal' an air fighter
will beat a space fighter in the air.

'all other things being equal' mean just that.  weight, cost, size, TL...
ALL other things being equall.  That is what I have been saying all along.
I have no dought that a TL15 will beat a TL9.  TL represents design
improvements so of course the TL15 will win.  That is a no brainer and I
said so in one of original posts to this thread.

>> Don't you get it.  The plane can have anything the space fighter can.
>> Lasers, turrets, missles, partical weapons, anything plus special equipment
><snip>
>
>It's becoming more and more apparent you've never designed what u're talking
>about.  Try it some time, you might be surprised.  Then you'll have some frame
>of knowledge that we can continue this discussion.  Until then, please stop
>embarassing yourself.
>

I have designed hundreds of systems both real and in game.  I have design
cars, planes, and spacecraft for games in several different design systems.
It is not I who is going to be embarrassed.  These posts have been cut and
pasted and much of the original meaning has gone into the bit bucket.  I can
hardly blame anyone for miss understanding my premisses at this point.

>> It's like comparing a battle rider and a jump capable war ship of the same
>> tonage.  Of course the battle rider will win most times in a stand up fight
>> because that is it's natural enviroment.  That why I keep saying it's a no
>> brainer.
>
>Not an appropriate analogy, but you usually come from left field, so what the
>hey, right?  If that discussion went anything like this one, you'd start
>talking about TL-8 battle riders and SDI and maybe throw in an analogy
>involving a cat, a bird, and the local dog.  Then maybe a comment about
>'nonotech' capabilities (and their absence in the OTU) and how you lack the
>crucial supplement needed to realize what we're talking about.
>
>The battle rider will win because it has weapons and armor and screens taking
>up the space of the jump drives and jump drive fuel tankage.  That's it.  It's
>very simple really.  Has nothing to do with environment.  Both are dueling in
>space, according to space combat rules (whichever u happen to be using).  But
>I doubt u've designed either of these, either, so nevermind.  ;-)
>

I've design both over the years.  I do not care for battle riders.  I think
they are an aboration caused by over abstration in the game system but that
is neither here nor there.

The analagy is a very good one as the space fighter will be hauling along
the weight of systems that are only usefull in space while the air fighter
could have everthing that the space fighter has that is useful in the air
and replace the 'space systems' weight with more armor or weapons.  At the
very least the air fighter would need less life support, food, waste relief
system (or less complicated ones) ect due to the much shorter time a pilot
is in an air fighter.  

Take your basic rampart pull out its' life suport system and replace it with
an air compressor, and more armor, chaff pods, flares, or whatever the game
system allows for defensive systems and you have a more survivable design in
the atmosphere.  

What about the computer?  Take our the navagation program for space flight
and replace it with a treat library, anti missle program, or a better
gunnery program.  Remove the 100000 mile sensor system and replace it a
10000 mile one with 10 time the resolution and add some ECM and ECCM as well.  

Decrease the missle size and weight and carry more missles or increase the
warhead size.  They only have to fly for a fraction of the time in the
atmosphere so less fuel is needed and the fuel does not need an oxidizer.
If the missle use thrusters your batteries can be a lot smaller.  

Engagement ranges are much shorter as well so refocus and retune your
lassers for atmospheric operation to increase damage over shorter ranges.
In the GT weapons design system you can trade range, damage, and cost to
suit your combat enviroment.

Also decrease your engine size to match the design's top atmospheric speed
limit (GV designs).  Use the weight saving for more usefull stuff.

Also let's look at $$$.  In GT space capability comes at a cost in $s
(sealed hull and life support).  The air fighter can spend that money on
more bang the space fighter can not.  Assuming the same starting budget.

See the point?

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #382
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 383



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Naval architecture terminology and ObTraveller
Re: max accel
re: max accel
re: max accel
Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: max accel
Re: fighters and tanks
Re: max accel
COACC (was re: max accel)
Re: World Builder 4.0
Re: World Builder 4.0
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage
Re: Jump Projectors
Re: Spofulam
Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: Type TI / TJ scan needed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:48:51 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Naval architecture terminology and ObTraveller

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> Relating to Traveller (what does "Ob" mean, anyway?), most
> deckplans refer to "freshers", although I've seen some (but
> can't remember who published them, nor of what ships) that say
> "head".  What's the consensus on this important item of
> nomenclature?

Well, IMTU:

"Fresher"  -  small  room  found  on  space  vessels  and   space
    facilities.  Includes a toilet-unit, wash basin,  and  shower
    unit (whether water based or some alternative).

"Toilet" - small room.  Includes a  toilet-unit  and  wash  basin
    only.

"Latrine" - temporary outdoor  ground  structure  used  by  Army/
    Marines.  Includes one or more toilets and  _may_  have  wash
    basins.

"Kidku" - Vilani term.  Similar facilities to a "fresher".  Found
    in office blocks and public places ... for public use.

"Head"/"WC"/etc - slang for "fresher" or "toilet".



Regards PLST
"Procrastinate Now"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:27:34 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 10:37 PM 3/31/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>I do not have SoM and you are talking about a very different rampart that I
>>have access to.  6 tons of sensors!  What does that rampart weight?
>
>I think he's talking mass not displacement tonnage (volume).
>>I'll counter you proposal.  You design a space capable fighter at our
>>current tech level using any design system you chose and then compare it to
>>a real jet fighter in use today for the purpose of air combat at say 20,000
>>feet. See who wins then.  The air fighter.  Why because of the design weight
>>penalty
>
>Thta's easy. We don't have viable space systems at TL8, not for a space
>capable fighter. Not even for something like the Deltas in Walter Jon
>Williams 'Hardwired'. So you ask him to design a space capable fighter with

Good book by the way.

>a rules (and RL) framework which will not support one. Hardly a fair
>contest when you're comparing a mature technology against one which doesn't
>exist yet. Almost as unfair as comparing a mature technology (TL15) against
>an obsolete one (TL8).
>

True but at leat it would cancel out the effect of a design system biased
for space craft and lacking most aircraft systems stats.

>Maybe you should look at TL12 - this is viable for the whole Traveller
>period. Otherwise this is heading to non-viable land. TL12 should be around
>where the CG tech starts to outperform normal tech.
>

In GT with GV weapons design it might be posible to have a fair comparison
but even then you have to set the rules.

Same number of vehicles, Or total $s, or whatever combination of limits you
place on the designs and those limit in themselves my deside the result.

>> It has to use thrusters
>
>It uses Antigrav/contragrav generators in all versions of Traveller, not T
>Plates.
>
>even though they
>
>>produce a massive heat signature
>
>EM signature *not* heat (SOpM)
>

I do not have SOM.  I'm trying to fing a copy as it is refference on this
list a great deal.  My game store is looking for me.

>> Remember I said 'all otherthings being equal'.
>>That mean weight, dollars, tech level, pilot training time, exc.
>
>That is a fair argument, but unrealistic; you are likely to have several
>dedicated air fighters for each space fighter.
>

EXACTLY!  'Money' is a resource or maybe it is better to say it represents
resources.

>>The design limits placed on the space fighter are greater than those placed
>>on the air plane IN the atmosphere.
>
>If you constrain it to match the parameters of an aircraft.
>

It depends on the parameters you decide for the test.  Weight, volume,
credits, number of crew, ect.  Just like TCS.  More crew less $s favor the
fighters.  Less crew more dollars makes for a more even fight of it.  At
least that would be by quess without first trying it.

>>It's like comparing a battle rider and a jump capable war ship of the same
>>tonage.  Of course the battle rider will win most times in a stand up fight
>>because that is it's natural enviroment.  That why I keep saying it's a no
>>brainer.
>
>But you need to think outside the TL8 aircraft box you're thinking in. It
>is unlikely you can compare a space fighter directly with a air fighter, as
>the costs will be higher. You need someone to build a spacefighter, then
>take your 'n' aircraft and see if they can kill it for a fair contest of
>technologies. Otherwise aircraft win be default as space craft cannot
>compete against cost. This may be your point, but I feel it has little real
>world (game world) bearing on discussing the viability of the technologies.
>
>Dom
>

Partly, it is my point and it does have gaming implications.  In war it come
down to who has the most resources and who uses them best.  Japan had planes
at the end of WW2 but ran out of trained pilots to fly them.  The pilots
were the scare resource.  Russia had the opposite problem at the start of
the war.  Plenty of people but not enough hardware.

Gaming has similer trade of.  If your character uses suppresive fire he uses
up ammo he may need later.  If he does not there may not be a later.
Resource allocation is the heart of stratagy and tactics.  What have I got
and what can I do with it?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:27:46 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 10:43 PM 3/31/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
>>How about this - I'll build a light space fighter carrier and it's fifty
>>space fighters. I'll include construction costs, munitions, and pilot
>>training costs as if I were building it for both the anti-starship role
>>and the interface/ground attack role.
>>
>>For the MCr I spend, you could probably build a couple airbases
>>and a thousand atmospheric fighters. Or, you could build a base and a
>>couple hundred aerospace fighters - and win. Because your
>>atmospheric fighters will have no more chance of winning than an
>>F-16 has a chance of intercepting a YF-12A[1] that's up to altitude
>>and running at speed.
>
>But your carrier would wipe out the support infrastructure with KKM
>deadfall, missile fire and laser attack before the atmospherics can engage.
>The aerospace fighters, if ground based, can be picked off by the fighters
>and carrier during their vulnerable boost phase before they're out of the
>gravity well, unless you base them in orbit.
>

Not, true.  The air craft fight from the atmosphere.  No 'boost' phase.
Second any planet that consedes space superiorty will likely loose so 24
deep meson sites on the planet and 24 more on the moon with a massively
redundant remote sensor system.  No more space ships in orbit.  The areo
fighters are dispersed to hidden bases with only one or two plane or posted
combat ready in wilderness areas using VTOL to take on the space fighters
when the attack to try to clear the way for the space ships to get in close.

>The atmospheric fighters don't get to play, unless the carrier lets them.
>Even with an ASAT weapon like the F15 Clancy describes in Red Storm Rising,
>they are vulnerable as they have to get high enough to engage.
>

The fighters also have energy weapon that can reach space if they are of
equal tech level.

>Operating down the potential well is a big problem.
>

Yep, but you can mount MUCH BIGGER GUNS of a planet! (Grin)

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:27:57 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 05:03 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 09:24 PM 3/31/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>>The YF-12A was built.  Three examples IIRC.  They carried the missiles in
>>>individual bays and were to provide a high speed, high altitude defense for
>>>CONUS.  I seem to remember that they are either in storage or on static
>>>display.
>>>
>>
>>That's news to me.  What did they do to fit missles into that thing?  There
>>is not a lot of waste space and anything on the outside would cause problems
>>for the aerodynamic or get burned of due to friction.
>
>The missiles were stored internally in the body of the craft.  If you look
>at the aircraft from the front, it would look like this:  --\<O>/--  The
>missiles are stored in individual cells in the < and > parts of the
>illustration.  I think I have an illustration of the loadout somewhere at
>home.  If you want, I can scan the relevant illustration and send it to you.
>

I'd appreciate it.  I wonder what would be involved to conver the sr71 model
into the combat version?

>Kurt (Who _really_ wanted to see and SR-71 in flight)
>

So would I.  Remember 2 still fly for nasa!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:28:08 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

At 04:17 PM 3/31/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry posted:
>>
>>I believe I may have found a solution for the invulnerable battledress
>>problem in GURPS: Traveller.  The Type-214 is a very heavy gauss weapon
>>that is designed to fire the 20mm Californium round mention in _Star Mercs_
>>page 66.
><snip>
>>Using the californium rounds, the average damage is 8,400 points.
>
>Geez, Doug!
>
>You must have been spending your free time reading bedtime stories
>to Ditzie to come up with this weapon.
>
>
>...!...
>
>
>Oh gawd, now *there's* a thought!  Ditzie's version of the Brothers Grimm.
>
>I can just see it....
>
>
>Red Riding Hood: "What biiiig teethie weethies you haaaave, Grannnyy."
>
>Big Bad Wolf: "The better to _eat_ you, my dear! OH, SH.."
>
>
>BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!!!!
>
>
>...and Red Riding Hood lived happily ever after.
>
>
>(Woodsman?!? We don' need no steenkeeng woodsman!)
>

Blaug!!!!

Keyboard warning in the future please.  Where are those paper towels!?!?

That was funny!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:28:19 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 05:23 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 04:12 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Just what are the GURPSy sensors (PESA and AESA) capable of, especially in
>>relation to Traveller sensors?  What bands to they cover and what TL's do they
>>become available at?
>
>Both PESA and AESA become available at GTL8 (about TTL 8-9?).  
>
>AESA is a multi-mode sensor which includes: radar, imaging radar, and
>ladar.  (according to GT)  VE2nd expands to say it has the ability to
>switch between search radar, low-rez imaging radar, high-rez imaging radar,
>and ladar.  At GTL10 (TTL 9) the basic bridge's AESA is 7500lbs, 150cf, and
>costs 27kcr.  AT TL12 (GTL 15) it's 5620lb, 120cf, and21kcr
>
>PESA is an array of infrared thermal imaging and low-light telescopic
>sensors.  VE2nd expands to include passive radar, thermograph, possibly
>ultraviolet imaging, low-light TV, and magnification (3000x in basic
>bridge, 10000x in command bridge).  at GTL 10, the basic bridge has a PESA
>that is 3000lbs, 60cf, and 200.6kcr  at GTL 12 it's half that.
>
>

Now that is a reasonable sensor package.

Thank's for the transcribtion.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:28:30 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: fighters and tanks

At 06:16 PM 3/31/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Charles wrote
>
>>Who needs 6G when you are laser armed?  Speed is nearly meaningless when
>>your weapons work at the speed of light and the range is short.
>In that case, what you want is a tank. An airbreathing aerodynamic lift
>vehicle just can't carry the armour to compete with a grav tank; I think
>no-one would argue that grav tanks will beat space fighters of equivalent
>price either.
>

No argument here.  Bolos win period.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:02:46 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 04:28 PM 4/1/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>AESA is a multi-mode sensor which includes: radar, imaging radar, and
>>ladar.  (according to GT)  VE2nd expands to say it has the ability to
>>switch between search radar, low-rez imaging radar, high-rez imaging radar,
>>and ladar.  At GTL10 (TTL 9) the basic bridge's AESA is 7500lbs, 150cf, and
>>costs 27kcr.  AT TL12 (GTL 15) it's 5620lb, 120cf, and21kcr

oops, just discovered a typo.  The last sentence should be:

At GTL12 (TTL15) it's 5620lb, 120cf, and 21kcr.





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:59:56 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: COACC (was re: max accel)

Chares Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My basic premises are these:

1) A system build to operate in an enviroment will generally perform better
in the enviroment it was designed for than one that it was not designed for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
An F-18 can do a good job of whacking targets on land or at sea. 
An M-1 tank does a terrible job at sea combat. Which environment are
the tank and the aircraft mutually fighting in? Which one are you going to
bet on when they take each other on?

Comparing an atmospheric fighter and an aerospace fighter gives you
similar problems.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2) A system designed to perform a particular function will generally do that
function better than a system design for many general functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You need to decide what you're talking about here. Are you talking about
a TL-15 space fighter that's been modified for better interface/atmosphere
work, or are you talking about a combat vehicle that's limited to 
atmospheric work? A space fighter optimized for work in atmosphere will
outmatch a space fighter that lacks that gear, a combat vehicle limited
to atmosphere only gets to play if the space fighters allow it.

Charles, you're sounding like a guy who designs sailing ships claiming
that those nefangled steam engines will never work. This isn't 20th
century engineering we're talking about.

GDW's _Invasion Earth_ game had no air units, just SDB's, space fighters
and spacecraft in the ground-attack role. If these terrible dragons are in
the skies, the butterflies that are atmospheric-only fighters might just as
well stay home.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:07:09 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: World Builder 4.0

Steve Daniels wrote:-

>I've just downloaded the software and tried it out.
>Very impressive!

Many thanks. I try very hard to please.

>However, a few nit picks:

Oh-Oh!

>When inputing a UWP, I can't go back when I've made a mistake.

This has been raised before. I must admit it wasn't really a priority. I
always anticipated that people predominantly use the software by loading
Sector Files. Perhaps in the next version.

>How to select stars in unclear.

>What I can't figure out is how to input the stars.
>If I select D for size, I can only select DF, and not F1 (which is
>available at other size settings), and the same goes for the M8.

>I don't have WBH, so maybe there is some glitch between it and >FS.

Orbit Zones, Stellar Mass and Stellar Luminosity for Size D stars are the
same throughout each Spectral Class. i.e. F0 to F9 has a Stellar Mass of
0.42 and Stellar Luminosity of 0.13. Therefore there is little point in
giving the user the option to select the whole Spectral Class. Hope that
clears things up.

>Have you thought about a Galactic 2.4 file output?

I have considered it, but I just don't think Galactic provides enough
information. i.e. no stellar details. The EWP and ESP file formats produced
by WBD will be supported by the next version of Tom Bont's Astrogator.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:15:17 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: World Builder 4.0

At 06:07 PM 4/1/99 +0100, you wrote:
>This has been raised before. I must admit it wasn't really a priority. I
>always anticipated that people predominantly use the software by loading
>Sector Files. Perhaps in the next version.

And on that note, where does one find sector files?  I've been looking for
an archive, and can't seem to find one.

Thanks,




          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:15:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Of course, this means that with some creative engineering, you could
> run this "exhaust" thru the scoop & purifier setup and recover the
> unfused hydrogen for re-use. :-)

Which is why GT fusion plants have 200 year internal fuel supplies ;).  There's
some minor volume problems there, but 50 years is easily viable.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:09:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>So, in short, no official theory.  IMO DGP and FFS2 went too far in explaining
>something while FF&S' is easily malleable into others (though I believe GDW
>mentioned somewhere that the SoM wasn't accurate).

Especially for TNE.

Personally, my grand unified theory (liberally culled from other people's
suggestions) is as follows.

Jump drives require power and displacement mass to operate. The
displacement mass is typically hydrogen, but can be a mixture of low atomic
mass gases. Hydrogen is prefered.

The hydrogen is typically consumed to generate power for the jump drive,
and also fed, through a surge tank and used to inflate a bubble of
realspace around the starship as jump is achieved. Non-hydrogen options are
less optimal than hydrogen bubbles, and may result in a misjump due to jump
field fluctuations.

The power for the jump drive energises the jump coil (typically lanthanum
although barium and other rare elements have been used), which generates a
jump field. This field is spherical. Some ships have a secondary lanthanum
(or other) grid which modulates and shapes the jump field. Otherwise, a
more powerful jump coil may be required to maintain some ships with
geometries such as needles in a jump field as the sphere has to be larger.
A modulated field conforms to the ships geometry.

By default, a jump drive can only achieve the maximum jump number it is
designed for. However, installing a jump governer in the drive allows a
ship to jump to lower levels (eg a j2 ship can do j1). The Jump coil
remains energised throughout the jump - the surface grid is typically only
energised for entry/breakout to manage the transition between jspace and
nspace.

The jump field is typically 1m off the starship hull, but may be more.
Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with humans.
Contact or proximity to jspace may cause physiological problems too.

How about that,

Dom (magpie)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:39:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Jump Projectors

From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> At 09:07 AM 4/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> >The Jump Projector actually uses Matter Transport to introduce a 
> >TL-21 microbot to the exterior of the vessel.  The Bot quickly avoids 
> >detection (using TL-21 Stealth) and accesses the Jump Field 
> >Projectors via the "small grid of wires" on the outside of the ship.  
> >Using anti-matter, the bot produces enough energy to induce a Jump 
> >Field into the coil and/or grid, forcing the vessel into J-space.  
> >While in J-space, the bot uses anti-matter to generate Hydrogen using 
> >the Matter Transport technology, thus keeping the field open.  Upon 
> >arrival at the destination, the bot commits self-destruction, 
> >removing evidence of its existence from the material universe.
> 
> This is an interesting idea, but if it is being used as a weapon, why
> protect the ship while it is J-Space?  Why not just let the field collapse
> and take care of the problem?  After all, if the ship is still intact it
> might come back to haunt you later in the conflict.

I agree, but the text in both HG and MT say that the vessel is forced 
into a misjump.  (Other versions of Traveller are beyond my ken at 
the moment.)  I would assume that means that the vessel is not 
destroyed in transit (unless that's the result of the misjump mishap, 
should you use those rules.)  Otherwise, the texts should say that 
the ship is destroyed, which it doesn't state.  So, I can only 
assume that the ship survives to get to the other end of the jump.  
(And I know that assumptions only make an a$$ out of me and Umption, 
but I gotta start somewhere.  :)

First, it must not be cultural, as technology works in the hands of 
every culture, provided skilled operators exist to make it work.  So, 
no "Cannot Kill" dogma is going to do as a handwave for why the ship 
survives.  At least, for me, it won't, and I'm sure others will 
agree.

Since the ship survives, and this suggested handwave was only given 
for those who feel that Hydrogen is used to maintain the Jump Field 
Bubble, something must be generating that Hydrogen in their TU; 
otherwise the ship is always destroyed, and one of my two earlier 
handwaves can work to cover the situation.

As to what generates the Hydrogen needed to maintain the Jump Field 
Bubble in their TU, I don't know.  I figured that something must be 
producing it, since the Jump Projector is not listed as having an 
exception regarding the results of a ship being forced into misjump 
without sufficient fuel to sustain the trip.  Therefore, the impetus 
to the jump, and the means to make it a "successful trip" should come 
from the TL-21 Jump Projector.  The microbot was the first, 
admittedly cheesy, handwave that came to mind.

For me, whether or not the Grid or Coil is the source of the field, 
the Jump Field maintains its integrity once generated, and there's no 
need for the Hydrogen support.  (I prefer to see it as energy 
interaction as opposed to matter interaction which forms and 
maintains the Jump Field.)  IMTU, and it won't stop me from playing 
in a game where it doesn't work this way.

Still, if Hydrogen support is needed, it must come from somewhere.  
So how does the TL-21 Jump Projector do it?

Curiosity Killed The Cat,
Satisfaction Brought It Back.

Curiously,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:40:29 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Spofulam

>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Subject: Re: Spofulam?
>
>> 
>> I tend to drop into my best "Disney Italian" (see "Lady and the Tramp") and
>> roll the whole name out...
>> 
>>  Fah-MEE-leh SPOH-foo-Lam
>
>Shouldn't it be Disney French (famille being a French word, not the
>Italian familia)?  Fah-MEE-ye SPOH-fu-lam

 Turning the double "L" into a "Y" is primarily a Spanish thing, though some
French probably do the same thing. The Disney Italian reference is to the
tendency of cinematic Italians to _strongly_ accent at least one syllable
per word.

 I shall now lay low while Kenji puts on the Linguists hat and proves me
wrong..:-)

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 09:53:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

At 04:28 PM 4/1/99 +0000, you wrote:

>>You must have been spending your free time reading bedtime stories
>>to Ditzie to come up with this weapon.

To Whom it Mat Concern:

The Type-214 Heavy Gauss Weapon is a product of Gridlore Technologies, LIC,
and we retain exclusive right to it and it's proprietary design features.

In addition, Sir Arameth Gridlore has a long-standing legal dispute with
Famile Spofulam, which I am not at liberty to discuss.

To that end, I must demand that no further messages attempt to link our
Type-214 HGW with Famile Spofulam VP D. Spofulam.  Failure to comply will
result in prompt legal action.

Thank you.

Cassandra Gridlore
Chief Consul, Gridlore Technologies.
Sylea, Core.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:58:58 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Type TI / TJ scan needed

I kinda' blew the request.  I have the MT Rebellion Sourcebook and have
those shots, and several others have sent some that I didn't have (which is
GREAT!!).  However, I was really looking for the TI's deckplans.  I coulda'
sworn they were in the copy of The Traveller Book that I have a copy of and
can't currently find for the life of me.  It may be in a 2nd edition or
something, as someone with a 1st editition said it wasn't there.  It may
also not be labled "Type TI Frontier Transport", but just frontier transport
or even something else (I can't remember specifically).  It was obvious, if
you've seen the MT shots or some of the others, that it was a TI though.
So, check your stuff and let me know!  You guys are the greatest Traveller
resource in existence!

Best,
Jesse


>Hi everyone,
>
>I need a good quality scan of the TI / TJ Frontier Transport from "The
>Traveller Book" (or another source if it ever showed up elsewhere) for some
>upcoming work.  Can anyone help?
>
>BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity to again thank everyone on the TML
>that has helped with material in the past for "Far Trader" and "First In",
>and for everyone's comments regarding the same.  Thanks again!!  You guys
>are the main reason I do it, though the cash helps ;D
>
>Thx!!!
>Jesse
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #383
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 384



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
re: max accel
re: max accel
Re: COACC (was re: max accel)
Re: The Bolo Books  [more info and a handy URL]
re: COACC
Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: ObTraveller
Re: fighters and tanks
Re: max accel
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
Re: World Builder 4.0
Re: Jump Projectors
Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage
Re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:13:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Traveller is generally a fairly hard science game
>with a minimum of 'magic' gaggets.

2300 is a hard sci-fi game. Traveller is soft in comparison ;-) but hard
when you look at Alternity and Star Wars...

>>So YOU say.  It's not mentioned but that doesn't mean there isn't room for it
>>as long as it doesn't live up to the claims of sci-fi authors (IMTU, this is
>>precisely the case).   When you get ownership of the Traveller copyright,
>>I'll
>>put more weight into your words (well... probably not).

Low Level nanotech is discussed in the GT book.

>>The Rampart masses 186.52 tonnes in BL.  So are the dimensions mentioned
>>acceptable to you, for the capabilities present?
>>
>BL?  What is that?

Brilliant Lances, the TNE supplement/game which presents the stats for the
Rampart.

It masses 185.52 metric tonnes. It *displaces* 9 ton.
The MT version displaces 10 dt. This reflects the design system changes
from Striker/MT to TNE.

>  The rampart I am familiar with is out of CTs AHL and
>IIRC is not nearly that big.  (30 or 50 tons displacement)  I dought a F15
>carries 12000 pounds of sensor equipment.

IIRC that's the Heavy Fighter, not the Rampart. And you're slipping back
into a TL7/TL8 example.

>And not at all realistic.  If they work the same, an F15 could detect the
>apollo in orbit arround the moon with it's radar that can not penetrate the
>van allan belts much less the ionosphere and is somehow able to pick up the
>returned signal that in well below the noise threshold!

No, actually this rebuttal is flawed. An F15, as you said, does not carry a
TL15 6 metric tonne AEMS/PEMS system. If it did, and could power it, it is
possible that it could scan deep into space.

>>> No, it does not.  Human bandwidth is limited.  No external computer will
>>> improve that unless you invent a mind machine interface that is definately
>>> NOT canon.

Bear in mind we are subject to significantly higher levels of data
assimilation than our ancestors, or even the generations who fought the 2nd
and 1st World Wars. We do not yet know what the capacity of the human mind
is. Holodynamic configuarble controls (canon since  MT) would go a long way
to help organise data management.

>News to me.  I play CT and GT.  I have FF&S v1 and have read it (never used
>it for designs, I got it after GV came out as a source for ideas)but I do
>not recall neural jacks.  Also nowhere in any rampart discription have I
>seen a note that a neural jack was needed for proper operation.  GV makes
>such notes for jacked gear but has not added jacks to the TU AFAIK.

There is no reason why a canon Traveller ship could not be controlled by an
expert system (synaptic processing computer) which the operator just told
it to engage a specific ship. Additionally, there is no reason why such a
system could not preprocess the data sent to the command processor (human)
for decision.

>TL-9 vs TL-12 was not my point.  Also the game mechanic and design system is
>being compared wheather you wish to admit it or not sence it is the medium
>of the test.  Example:  Try and design a tank using high guard.  Can't be
>done.  There are no rules for tanks in HG.  It's a space ship design system.
>If there are no rules for ducted fan engines, RAM, Tomahawks, Polaris
>missles, exc you can't test your assumptions, you end up testing the game
>mechanics.

But you can design all of the above using Striker, which has notes on how
to interface with HG.

>Really, then what is the power to weight ratio of the following real work
>systems in FF&S:

>Raidial IC fix speed and adjustable prop:
>Turbo prop:
>Ram jet:
>ducted fan jet:
>Non jet Ducted fan.
>
>What about the effects of the folowing features:
>
>Super chargers:
>Variable pitch turbines:
>Stub wings:
>Hard points:
>Pylons:
>RAM:
>Thermal masking:

Your point is? Or do you just want Gary to retype all the information from
FFS1 which you already have. I know and accept that you don't use it, but
you do have this information. If you're trying to say that the design
system approximates real life, fine, I for one accept that. However, the
Traveller design systems have tended to get better with evolution, and that
I would agree with having looked at GV2. FFS certainly reflects RL better
than HG or Striker.

>Game systems are inherently limited by what they choose to cover and to what
>degree of accuracy and depth.  Game systems are by difinition limited and
>the universe is by (some) definitions infinite.

But the game system, in this case any of Traveller's does define the
technological limits which effect the background; like it or not, aerospace
is not a significant cost penalty if you're lookig for a similar
performance.

>My basic premises are these:

>1) A system build to operate in an enviroment will generally perform better
>in the enviroment it was designed for than one that it was not designed for.

Unless the general technology and performance of the non-dedicated system
mean that the previous technology is obsolete.

>2) A system designed to perform a particular function will generally do that
>function better than a system design for many general functions.

Assuming equal technology levels. And the ability of the dedicated system
to operate within its design parameters. If these are exceeded, or pushed
to the limit, the general technology may have the edge.

>3) If for some reason of senergy that the above rules do not apply to a
>particular pair of test units being evaluated then the lessons learned in
>the evaluation can be used to improve the specialty system to perform better
>than the generalist system in the function of the specialty system.  If this
>is not posible for what ever reason (ussually money) the specialty system
>will be replaced by the generalist system with it's system configure for
>optimum performance in the new enviroment.  This is design evolution.

That is a fair argument.



>Also let's look at $$$.  In GT space capability comes at a cost in $s
>(sealed hull and life support).  The air fighter can spend that money on
>more bang the space fighter can not.  Assuming the same starting budget.
>
>See the point?

There isn't one if you say equal cost and base the cost on the airfighter.
The only fair comparison is to see what the outcome of a battle between an
aerospace fighter (which we have agreed will be more expensive) and an
equal cost's worth of air fighter. This may mean a 3:1 engagement or worse,
but it would assess the performance.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:23:23 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Partly, it is my point and it does have gaming implications.  In war it come
down to who has the most resources and who uses them best.  Japan had planes
at the end of WW2 but ran out of trained pilots to fly them.  The pilots
were the scare resource.  Russia had the opposite problem at the start of
the war.  Plenty of people but not enough hardware.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My grandfather worked during WW2 at an army air corps base in Alaska, 
his base recieved delivery of P-39's and other aircraft for lend-lease transport 
to the Soviet Union. Planeloads of Soviet pilots arrived every day (as
passengers on transport craft), they piled into the aircraft to be delivered
and took off. There was a large and ever-growing mound at the end of 
his base's airstrip, made up of the planes that crashed on take-off.

Apparently the lion's share of these pilots had never been in an airplane
before they boarded the transport flight to Alaska. 

In a high-skill environment like aeronautics (not to mention air combat),
one skilled person can be worth a hundred novices.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:26:28 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Not, true.  The air craft fight from the atmosphere.  No 'boost' phase.
Second any planet that consedes space superiorty will likely loose so 24
deep meson sites on the planet and 24 more on the moon with a massively
redundant remote sensor system.  No more space ships in orbit.  The areo
fighters are dispersed to hidden bases with only one or two plane or posted
combat ready in wilderness areas using VTOL to take on the space fighters
when the attack to try to clear the way for the space ships to get in close.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You keep expanding the envelope of the example, Charles. Now I get
my light carrier, my fifty fighters, and enough MCr to build, support and
staff 48 deep Meson sites. Just to keep things equal, mind you. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:31:59 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: COACC (was re: max accel)

At 11:59 AM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Chares Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>My basic premises are these:
>
>1) A system build to operate in an enviroment will generally perform better
>in the enviroment it was designed for than one that it was not designed for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>An F-18 can do a good job of whacking targets on land or at sea. 
>An M-1 tank does a terrible job at sea combat. Which environment are
>the tank and the aircraft mutually fighting in? Which one are you going to
>bet on when they take each other on?
>

The F-18 is operating in the air at all those time so it is in it's inviroment.

>Comparing an atmospheric fighter and an aerospace fighter gives you
>similar problems.
>
>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>2) A system designed to perform a particular function will generally do that
>function better than a system design for many general functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You need to decide what you're talking about here. Are you talking about
>a TL-15 space fighter that's been modified for better interface/atmosphere
>work, or are you talking about a combat vehicle that's limited to 
>atmospheric work? A space fighter optimized for work in atmosphere will
>outmatch a space fighter that lacks that gear, a combat vehicle limited
>to atmosphere only gets to play if the space fighters allow it.
>

That makes the assumption the the space force has total space superiority.
That is not nessarily the case with deep meson sites and other surface to
space weapons.  Also if the space fighter has to reach a surface target then
the space ship has to deal with the air fighter.

>Charles, you're sounding like a guy who designs sailing ships claiming
>that those nefangled steam engines will never work. This isn't 20th
>century engineering we're talking about.
>

No, i'm saying the the sailing ship can have a steam engine as well.  And
they did for a while.

>GDW's _Invasion Earth_ game had no air units, just SDB's, space fighters
>and spacecraft in the ground-attack role. If these terrible dragons are in
>the skies, the butterflies that are atmospheric-only fighters might just as
>well stay home.
>

And if the 'butterflies' are bigger ,better armed, and better armored which
is what will happen when you pull the space systems to make room for more
usefull gear.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:36:03 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: The Bolo Books  [more info and a handy URL]

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
>
>> The Bolo books - this name sounds familiar. Are these ones in
>> which there are huge sentient tanks, a la Ogre? If so, the
>> books are written by William Keith (his webpage can be accessed
>> from my Jump Points page). Contains cool pics of said tanks, by
>> Bill himself (a Trav Great Old One ;-).
>
> The Bolo books were not written by William Keith, but by Keith
> Laumer.  They do deal with large AI-equipped tanks, and are 
> excellent reading.


But, Glenn hasn't checked out the latest Bolo books.

"Bolo Rising" (Baen 1998) and "Bolo Brigade" (Baen 1997)
  by [pretend to be surprised] William Keith.

The list of Bolo historians is rather impressive... 
(in no particular order)

  Keith Laumer                      Karen Wehrstein
  John DeCamp                       S.N. Lewitt
  Larry Dixon                       Barry N. Malzberg
  David Drake                       Shirley Meier 
  Linda Evans                       John Mina 
  William R. Forstchen              Steve Perry 
  Robert GreenBerger                Mike Resnick
  Robert R. Hollingsworth           Christopher Stasheff 
  Todd Johnson                      S.M. Stirling
  J. Andrew                         Keith Mark Thies 
  William H. Keith Jr.              David Weber
  Mercedes Lackey

  (Quite a few Sci Fi heavy hitters there.)

  Data shamelessly borrowed from the Bolo Central Command site...
  http://www.erielink.com/~ardhen/bcc/frames/boloframe.htm

ObTrav: The Bolo stories can be the cornerstone for many
        military adventures.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:45:22 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: COACC

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>GDW's _Invasion Earth_ game had no air units, just SDB's, space fighters
>and spacecraft in the ground-attack role. If these terrible dragons are in
>the skies, the butterflies that are atmospheric-only fighters might just as
>well stay home.
>

And if the 'butterflies' are bigger ,better armed, and better armored which
is what will happen when you pull the space systems to make room for more
usefull gear.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing you're missing from my question, Charles. What's the difference
between a TL15 gravitic, sealed cockpit, heavily armed and armored 
atmospheric fighter and a TL15 SDB/Gunship? Quite quickly at TL12+
you get to the point where there is no difference - just the insignia on the
pilot's uniform.

These hefty "space systems" you keep talking about is nothing more
than a fusion plant (which your laser-toting atmospheric fighter will need),
a weapons load (which you agree the atmospheric fighter will have as well), 
and a sensor suite (which the SF background identifies as perfectly capable of operating in atmosphere). In fact, if that atmospheric fighter of yours is 
able to engage at the ranges you claim, it will need the same sensor 
package anyway. We're running out of differences here.

As CT Striker says, aircraft stop existing as a truly viable seperate 
combat design once gravitics tech matures - they become space-capable 
gunboats, or you don't bother with them.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:59:19 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Douglas E. Berry posted:
>
>At 04:28 PM 4/1/99 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>>You must have been spending your free time reading bedtime stories
>>>to Ditzie to come up with this weapon.
>
>To Whom it May Concern:
>
>The Type-214 Heavy Gauss Weapon is a product of Gridlore Technologies,
LIC,
>and we retain exclusive right to it and it's proprietary design
features.
>
>In addition, Sir Arameth Gridlore has a long-standing legal dispute
with
>Famile Spofulam, which I am not at liberty to discuss.
>
>To that end, I must demand that no further messages attempt to link our
>Type-214 HGW with Famile Spofulam VP D. Spofulam.  Failure to comply
will
>result in prompt legal action.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Cassandra Gridlore
>Chief Consul, Gridlore Technologies.
>Sylea, Core.

My bad. Too many Scout brews don't help the memory.

BTW, does this gem have hardware for, say, internal corridor mounts?
I have this exploratory merchant which just happens to be planning
on going outside the Imperium...

Sir Daven Hevelin, (Order of Deneb)
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:59:30 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
Subject: Re: ObTraveller

At 07:16 AM 4/1/99 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>There were also designs for a fusion+ powered pogo stick, which under the
>right conditions can reach orbital velocity. Kids are advised to use all the
>safety measures.
>
All right, I'll fess up. Some months ago I rendered a picture of the
aforementioned pogo stick. Seems the Bureau of Starship Safety, Heath and
Transit Standards (BSSHTS) was on the warpath and needed to make an example
of Famille Spufalum. Strangely, Ira Rimmer, the BSSHTS spokesman has been
strangely silent ever since Ditzie hit the scene.  =^O.

For your amusement I have posted the Rod Elliot approved the image of this
thing on the BSHTS website. Follow the link below to FS and enjoy. 

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/Traveller/BSSmain.htm

Brian A. Howard

IMTU @tc tm @t4 GT++ ru- ge+ 3i+ jt-- au+ st++ ls+ kk+ hi+ as++ va+ zh+ so-
vi da+ ?sy--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:03:01 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: fighters and tanks

>(I'm well aware that high pen lasers are
>serious Canon stuff and I wouldn't want to lose them but can somebody come
>up with a good handwave why they should work?).


First attempt:

The grav focus beam that jackets a laser is emitted first, by a few
microseconds, to shunt the atmosphere out of the way, providing a laser a
near-vacuum path to travel down on it's merry way to the target.

What do you think, sirs?


Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
Junior Gearhead, Third Class
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:26:54 +0100
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

On 29 Mar, Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net> wrote:
> >>Not actually true as the 40G superdense, space meteorite resistance > > >>armour on a Rampart will shrug off the damage. [...]
> >
> >Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.
> >And exactly what is a G of armor?  [...]

> 40G is a MegaTraveller term for a hull with an armor value of 40 made
> of material code G (bonded superdense, IIRC). It is the equivalent to
> 33 cm of hard steel.

For further info, according to MT, armour factor 40 is equivalent to
CT armour factor 0 (ie minimum armour for a spaceship).

So the armour of an Iowa is inferior to a Free Trader (on average).

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:00:03 +0100
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

On 29 Mar, <RnLschaefr@aol.com> wrote:
> Is it not  possible that most of the titles handed out by the Imperial
> Royals are are not inheritable? The Royal Family in England is famous
> for handing out 'titles' to singers (Elton Lohn) and actors (Michael
> Redgrave) that can't be passed on to their heirs....The British Isles
> might become top heavy with Nobility otherwise...

On 30 Mar, Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

> In 1970 England had 869 peers out of a population of 46 million.

In the UK:

Knighthoods (Soc A) are not inheritable, although having one would put
your heirs in the sort of company that made them more likely to earn
their own. Knights are not considered piers of the realm, do not have
a seat on the house of lords and aren't counted in the 869 piers.

The higher ranks were all hereditary, until the middle of this century
when "life piers" were introduced. Since then, almost all pierages have
been for life only. In the next millennium, only the life piers and 100
or so hereditary piers will be able to speak and vote in the lords.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 21:21:57 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles

Walter Smith wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>
His example of a Gondolier pushing against a planet wasn't extended
by him to the starship pushing against the planet - the way I read it,
in his TU thrusters push against "space-time" itself. Depending on how
you read relativity, you are never moving relative to space-time at all
- - you
only move in relation to objects within space-time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes that is the way I meant it. IMTU thruster plates push at the
Universe. The change of momentum (of my ship) is given to 'the rest of
the universe', thus momentum _is_ conserved, by giving a really really
BIG mass (see above) a really small change of velocity.



Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > IMTU thrusters work the same way as a gondola in venice:
> > The gondolier pushes with his stick against the bottom thus using the
> > rest of the planet as reaction mass. As this effect upon earth might be
> > to small to be measured, this method might be described as being
> > reaction less.
> 
> Alas, pushing against a planet has a problem. The faster you are moving
> relative to it, the more push it takes to increase your velocity
> (conservation of energy). A few years back we worked out the applicable
> equations. It's a fun concept, but bear *no* resemblance to the way
> thrusters are described as working.
> 
> > Thrusters push against the structure of space-time, thus using the rest
> > of the universe as reaction mass. IMTU this causes some ripples in
> > space-time (small gravitational waves) which can be sensed by
> > densitometers.
> 
> This has the same problem as the above. Conservation laws *require*
> that the amount of energy required go up as the square of the velocity.
> So whatever amount of energy it takes to get you to 1 km/sec, it take
> *4* times that to get to 2 km/sec and *9* times as much to get to 3
> km/sec. Thus you rapidly run into diminishing returns.
> 

Yes, I know. Power requierement = Force * velocity.
This power usually has to be produced by your power plant.


> Thrusters as described in Traveller are flat out impossible. They let
> you get energy for free. There are several ways of using thrusters to
> build a perpetual motion machine.
> 

You are right with this, too. But conservation of energy breaks _every_
thruster in traveller. Just take an average scout/courier: 500t, 2g
acceleration (as given in the TNE-handbook). As described in Traveller
(every version), acceleration to 100 km/s (not really fast for a ship in
Traveller) would take 5000 s, somewhat less than 1.5 hours. The kinetic
energy of the ship is about 2.5 * 10^15 J ( = 2.500.000 GJ). It takes a
500 GW power plant to produce that amount of energy in the given time,
the third of the power plant of a tigress battle ship


> Reaction drives are far more efficient than the "real" thrusters I
> described above. This is because they push against their own exhaust,
> which always starts out at rest with respect to the ship. Thus it
> always take the same energy to accelerate. Only problem is when you run
> out of fuel. :-)
> 

See above.


Bye,
Paradin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:21:15 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: World Builder 4.0

Juliean Galak wrote:-

>And on that note, where does one find sector files?  I've been >looking for
an archive, and can't seem to find one.

Try The Missouri Archive at:-
http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:27:46 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Projectors

>
> Still, if Hydrogen support is needed, it must come from somewhere.
> So how does the TL-21 Jump Projector do it?

As per my suggestion, the Jump Projector forces the other ship to jump.  The
target then uses its jump drives and fuel in the process. You can assume  that
this means  that the target ship is co-opted some way or you can assume that it
screws up the field in some way to cause a jumping ship to misjump, as a large
gravity body might do.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:30:28 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage

SD Mooney wrote:

> TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
>
> >So, in short, no official theory.  IMO DGP and FFS2 went too far in explaining
> >something while FF&S' is easily malleable into others (though I believe GDW
> >mentioned somewhere that the SoM wasn't accurate).
>
> Especially for TNE.
>
> Personally, my grand unified theory (liberally culled from other people's
> suggestions) is as follows.
>
> Jump drives require power and displacement mass to operate. The
> displacement mass is typically hydrogen, but can be a mixture of low atomic
> mass gases. Hydrogen is prefered.
>
> The hydrogen is typically consumed to generate power for the jump drive,
> and also fed, through a surge tank and used to inflate a bubble of
> realspace around the starship as jump is achieved. Non-hydrogen options are
> less optimal than hydrogen bubbles, and may result in a misjump due to jump
> field fluctuations.
>
> The power for the jump drive energises the jump coil (typically lanthanum
> although barium and other rare elements have been used), which generates a
> jump field. This field is spherical. Some ships have a secondary lanthanum
> (or other) grid which modulates and shapes the jump field. Otherwise, a
> more powerful jump coil may be required to maintain some ships with
> geometries such as needles in a jump field as the sphere has to be larger.
> A modulated field conforms to the ships geometry.
>
> By default, a jump drive can only achieve the maximum jump number it is
> designed for. However, installing a jump governer in the drive allows a
> ship to jump to lower levels (eg a j2 ship can do j1). The Jump coil
> remains energised throughout the jump - the surface grid is typically only
> energised for entry/breakout to manage the transition between jspace and
> nspace.
>
> The jump field is typically 1m off the starship hull, but may be more.
> Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with humans.
> Contact or proximity to jspace may cause physiological problems too.
>
> How about that,

How about adding the expanding field from the jump coil can be disorienting and may
cause "jump sickness" to those that are sensitive.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:38:56 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 07:13 PM 4/1/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>Traveller is generally a fairly hard science game
>>with a minimum of 'magic' gaggets.
>
>2300 is a hard sci-fi game. Traveller is soft in comparison ;-) but hard
>when you look at Alternity and Star Wars...
>
>>>So YOU say.  It's not mentioned but that doesn't mean there isn't room for it
>>>as long as it doesn't live up to the claims of sci-fi authors (IMTU, this is
>>>precisely the case).   When you get ownership of the Traveller copyright,
>>>I'll
>>>put more weight into your words (well... probably not).
>
>Low Level nanotech is discussed in the GT book.
>

I must have missed the reference.  I read it cover to cover but I do not
recall a nanotech refference.

>>>The Rampart masses 186.52 tonnes in BL.  So are the dimensions mentioned
>>>acceptable to you, for the capabilities present?
>>>
>>BL?  What is that?
>
>Brilliant Lances, the TNE supplement/game which presents the stats for the
>Rampart.
>
>It masses 185.52 metric tonnes. It *displaces* 9 ton.
>The MT version displaces 10 dt. This reflects the design system changes
>from Striker/MT to TNE.
>

Thanks for the clarification.  I was getting very confused.  I'm a CT/GT
only player.  I miss the other traveller version do to Real Life.

>>  The rampart I am familiar with is out of CTs AHL and
>>IIRC is not nearly that big.  (30 or 50 tons displacement)  I dought a F15
>>carries 12000 pounds of sensor equipment.
>
>IIRC that's the Heavy Fighter, not the Rampart. And you're slipping back
>into a TL7/TL8 example.
>

True, I tend to mix thoughts while I'm working things out.  Real world
comparisions also help me get a feel for the dimentions/scale of the situation.

>>And not at all realistic.  If they work the same, an F15 could detect the
>>apollo in orbit arround the moon with it's radar that can not penetrate the
>>van allan belts much less the ionosphere and is somehow able to pick up the
>>returned signal that in well below the noise threshold!
>
>No, actually this rebuttal is flawed. An F15, as you said, does not carry a
>TL15 6 metric tonne AEMS/PEMS system. If it did, and could power it, it is
>possible that it could scan deep into space.
>

Good point. The analagy is flawed.

>>>> No, it does not.  Human bandwidth is limited.  No external computer will
>>>> improve that unless you invent a mind machine interface that is definately
>>>> NOT canon.
>
>Bear in mind we are subject to significantly higher levels of data
>assimilation than our ancestors, or even the generations who fought the 2nd
>and 1st World Wars. We do not yet know what the capacity of the human mind
>is. Holodynamic configuarble controls (canon since  MT) would go a long way
>to help organise data management.
>

Perhaps, but there are limits to human perceptions.  The airforce has been
working to put combat data into the best format for it's pilots.

>>News to me.  I play CT and GT.  I have FF&S v1 and have read it (never used
>>it for designs, I got it after GV came out as a source for ideas)but I do
>>not recall neural jacks.  Also nowhere in any rampart discription have I
>>seen a note that a neural jack was needed for proper operation.  GV makes
>>such notes for jacked gear but has not added jacks to the TU AFAIK.
>
>There is no reason why a canon Traveller ship could not be controlled by an
>expert system (synaptic processing computer) which the operator just told
>it to engage a specific ship. Additionally, there is no reason why such a
>system could not preprocess the data sent to the command processor (human)
>for decision.
>

Very true and that may well be the future of technological combat but that
is not how it is portrayed in CT canon AFAIK.

>>TL-9 vs TL-12 was not my point.  Also the game mechanic and design system is
>>being compared wheather you wish to admit it or not sence it is the medium
>>of the test.  Example:  Try and design a tank using high guard.  Can't be
>>done.  There are no rules for tanks in HG.  It's a space ship design system.
>>If there are no rules for ducted fan engines, RAM, Tomahawks, Polaris
>>missles, exc you can't test your assumptions, you end up testing the game
>>mechanics.
>
>But you can design all of the above using Striker, which has notes on how
>to interface with HG.
>

I do not have striker to reference either.

>>Really, then what is the power to weight ratio of the following real work
>>systems in FF&S:
>
>>Raidial IC fix speed and adjustable prop:
>>Turbo prop:
>>Ram jet:
>>ducted fan jet:
>>Non jet Ducted fan.
>>
>>What about the effects of the folowing features:
>>
>>Super chargers:
>>Variable pitch turbines:
>>Stub wings:
>>Hard points:
>>Pylons:
>>RAM:
>>Thermal masking:
>
>Your point is? Or do you just want Gary to retype all the information from
>FFS1 which you already have. I know and accept that you don't use it, but
>you do have this information. If you're trying to say that the design
>system approximates real life, fine, I for one accept that. However, the
>Traveller design systems have tended to get better with evolution, and that
>I would agree with having looked at GV2. FFS certainly reflects RL better
>than HG or Striker.
>

I'm sorry.  I do not have my books here.  I read but do not use FF&S1.  I
did not see any reference to any of the above systems.  Perhaps they are
portrayed under other game mechanics.  My point was that FF&S did not have
the depth to simulate the systems of an advanced air fighter.

>>Game systems are inherently limited by what they choose to cover and to what
>>degree of accuracy and depth.  Game systems are by difinition limited and
>>the universe is by (some) definitions infinite.
>
>But the game system, in this case any of Traveller's does define the
>technological limits which effect the background; like it or not, aerospace
>is not a significant cost penalty if you're lookig for a similar
>performance.
>
>>My basic premises are these:
>
>>1) A system build to operate in an enviroment will generally perform better
>>in the enviroment it was designed for than one that it was not designed for.
>
>Unless the general technology and performance of the non-dedicated system
>mean that the previous technology is obsolete.
>

All of these premises assumes the same tech level.

>>2) A system designed to perform a particular function will generally do that
>>function better than a system design for many general functions.
>
>Assuming equal technology levels. And the ability of the dedicated system
>to operate within its design parameters. If these are exceeded, or pushed
>to the limit, the general technology may have the edge.
>

The same can be said for the general technology and is more likely as it was
not designed for what it is being asked to do.

>>3) If for some reason of senergy that the above rules do not apply to a
>>particular pair of test units being evaluated then the lessons learned in
>>the evaluation can be used to improve the specialty system to perform better
>>than the generalist system in the function of the specialty system.  If this
>>is not posible for what ever reason (ussually money) the specialty system
>>will be replaced by the generalist system with it's system configure for
>>optimum performance in the new enviroment.  This is design evolution.
>
>That is a fair argument.
>
>
>
>>Also let's look at $$$.  In GT space capability comes at a cost in $s
>>(sealed hull and life support).  The air fighter can spend that money on
>>more bang the space fighter can not.  Assuming the same starting budget.
>>
>>See the point?
>
>There isn't one if you say equal cost and base the cost on the airfighter.
>The only fair comparison is to see what the outcome of a battle between an
>aerospace fighter (which we have agreed will be more expensive) and an
>equal cost's worth of air fighter. This may mean a 3:1 engagement or worse,
>but it would assess the performance.
>
>Dom
>

Agreed, that is likely.  I would also say that to properly test the
comparison that it would be necessary to test them under likely senerios.
Like a convoy attack, or infrastructure reduction attack.  It might also be
necessary to properly test the likely hood that such systems would be
fesible, for both sides, to give both sides a budget and fight out the
invassion.  It is generally considered that it take more resources to attack
that to defend but would that still hold true in a futuristic planitary
assault?  Gravity can be a great asset.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #384
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 385



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: max accel
re: max accel
re: COACC
Re: fighters and tanks
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
re: COACC
re: max accel
Re: Type TI / TJ scan needed
Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality
Re: max accel
Re: Jump Projectors
Re: Type TI / TJ scan needed
Re: Jump Projectors
Re: max accel
re: max accel
RE: Atmospheric Fighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:39:08 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 01:26 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Not, true.  The air craft fight from the atmosphere.  No 'boost' phase.
>Second any planet that consedes space superiorty will likely loose so 24
>deep meson sites on the planet and 24 more on the moon with a massively
>redundant remote sensor system.  No more space ships in orbit.  The areo
>fighters are dispersed to hidden bases with only one or two plane or posted
>combat ready in wilderness areas using VTOL to take on the space fighters
>when the attack to try to clear the way for the space ships to get in close.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You keep expanding the envelope of the example, Charles. Now I get
>my light carrier, my fifty fighters, and enough MCr to build, support and
>staff 48 deep Meson sites. Just to keep things equal, mind you. <G>
>

Against the space fleet you introduced to bombard the fighter bases, yes.
Frankly weapons systems rarely fight it out one on one.  They are part of a
combined force with a gaol and resources placed in oposition against another
force with differing goals and resources.  To properly test the fesibility
of the rampart or my hypothetical fighter you would need to test them under
the conditions they were designed you be under, planetary assault.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:39:19 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 01:23 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Partly, it is my point and it does have gaming implications.  In war it come
>down to who has the most resources and who uses them best.  Japan had planes
>at the end of WW2 but ran out of trained pilots to fly them.  The pilots
>were the scare resource.  Russia had the opposite problem at the start of
>the war.  Plenty of people but not enough hardware.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>My grandfather worked during WW2 at an army air corps base in Alaska, 
>his base recieved delivery of P-39's and other aircraft for lend-lease
transport 
>to the Soviet Union. Planeloads of Soviet pilots arrived every day (as
>passengers on transport craft), they piled into the aircraft to be delivered
>and took off. There was a large and ever-growing mound at the end of 
>his base's airstrip, made up of the planes that crashed on take-off.
>
>Apparently the lion's share of these pilots had never been in an airplane
>before they boarded the transport flight to Alaska. 
>
>In a high-skill environment like aeronautics (not to mention air combat),
>one skilled person can be worth a hundred novices.
>

True, and is much harder to come by than 100 fighter planes.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:47:58 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: COACC

At 01:45 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>GDW's _Invasion Earth_ game had no air units, just SDB's, space fighters
>>and spacecraft in the ground-attack role. If these terrible dragons are in
>>the skies, the butterflies that are atmospheric-only fighters might just as
>>well stay home.
>>
>
>And if the 'butterflies' are bigger ,better armed, and better armored which
>is what will happen when you pull the space systems to make room for more
>usefull gear.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>One thing you're missing from my question, Charles. What's the difference
>between a TL15 gravitic, sealed cockpit, heavily armed and armored 
>atmospheric fighter and a TL15 SDB/Gunship? Quite quickly at TL12+
>you get to the point where there is no difference - just the insignia on the
>pilot's uniform.
>
>These hefty "space systems" you keep talking about is nothing more
>than a fusion plant (which your laser-toting atmospheric fighter will need),
>a weapons load (which you agree the atmospheric fighter will have as well), 
>and a sensor suite (which the SF background identifies as perfectly capable
of operating in atmosphere). In fact, if that atmospheric fighter of yours is 
>able to engage at the ranges you claim, it will need the same sensor 
>package anyway. We're running out of differences here.
>

Not hardly.  Senors, and motive power will vary greatly.

>As CT Striker says, aircraft stop existing as a truly viable seperate 
>combat design once gravitics tech matures - they become space-capable 
>gunboats, or you don't bother with them.
>

That is a poor tactical and stratigic assumption.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:48:09 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: fighters and tanks

At 01:03 PM 4/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>(I'm well aware that high pen lasers are
>>serious Canon stuff and I wouldn't want to lose them but can somebody come
>>up with a good handwave why they should work?).
>
>
>First attempt:
>
>The grav focus beam that jackets a laser is emitted first, by a few
>microseconds, to shunt the atmosphere out of the way, providing a laser a
>near-vacuum path to travel down on it's merry way to the target.
>
>What do you think, sirs?
>
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>Junior Gearhead, Third Class
>yikes@evansville.net
>
>

Or perhaps a lower powered guide laser beam to clear the way?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:48:20 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 07:26 PM 4/1/99 +0100, you wrote:
>On 29 Mar, Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net> wrote:
>> >>Not actually true as the 40G superdense, space meteorite resistance > >
>>armour on a Rampart will shrug off the damage. [...]
>> >
>> >Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.
>> >And exactly what is a G of armor?  [...]
>
>> 40G is a MegaTraveller term for a hull with an armor value of 40 made
>> of material code G (bonded superdense, IIRC). It is the equivalent to
>> 33 cm of hard steel.
>
>For further info, according to MT, armour factor 40 is equivalent to
>CT armour factor 0 (ie minimum armour for a spaceship).
>
>So the armour of an Iowa is inferior to a Free Trader (on average).
>
>Phil Kitching
>

That flucks the reality test, big time!  A minimum of battle ships armor!?!
So the hull of all space ships is made of 10+ inches of carbon steel!?!?!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:02:36 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 07:48 PM 4/1/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>For further info, according to MT, armour factor 40 is equivalent to
>>CT armour factor 0 (ie minimum armour for a spaceship).
>>
>>So the armour of an Iowa is inferior to a Free Trader (on average).
>>
>>Phil Kitching
>>
>
>That flucks the reality test, big time!  A minimum of battle ships armor!?!
>So the hull of all space ships is made of 10+ inches of carbon steel!?!?!

No, it's made of a quarter inch or so of bonded superdense.  Or something
like that.  



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:08:08 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: COACC

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>package anyway. We're running out of differences here.
>

Not hardly.  Senors, and motive power will vary greatly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll ignore you for sensors right now, because you're stuck on TL8
design restrictions. Do you have a TL15 motive power that's better than
thruster plates and fusion-powered gravitics? That's what the space fighter 
will be using.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>As CT Striker says, aircraft stop existing as a truly viable seperate 
>combat design once gravitics tech matures - they become space-capable 
>gunboats, or you don't bother with them.
>

That is a poor tactical and stratigic assumption.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Perhaps. It may also mean that aircraft are to TL15 battlefields as
horse cavalry are to TL8 battlefields...you can field them, but they
won't do you much good, even if you give them M-16's.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:11:59 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That flucks the reality test, big time!  A minimum of battle ships armor!?!
So the hull of all space ships is made of 10+ inches of carbon steel!?!?!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rather, it says that the minimum thickness of TL12+ alloys that you
can readily fabricate into starship hull gives you better protection
(once complete) than 10+ inches of carbon steel. I'll bet 10+ inches
of TL12+ alloys will make 10 inches of carbon steel look like wet
tissue paper.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:28:22 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Type TI / TJ scan needed

>[snip]I was really looking for the TI's deckplans.  I coulda'
>sworn they were in the copy of The Traveller Book that I have a copy of and
>can't currently find for the life of me.

I have the Traveller Book, The Traveller Adventure, just about everything
MT, all the CT Adventures with deckplans, Traders and Gunboats, and many
other resources (not, significantly, the Spinward Marches Campaign, which
may have it) but have never seen deckplans for either the type TI or TJ.

I did not, and do not think such things existed in any official publication.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:29:56 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

>Peter Brenton;
>> I couldn't get a straight (i.e.layman's) answer out of my sources
>> here as to what kind of fusion it was, given the choices, but I found out
>> that much.

Shadow Replied;
>
>Any chance it was what the Analog article described?
>

Which was?

Pete



                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:31:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: max accel

Someone wrote:
> 
> >My grandfather worked during WW2 at an army air corps base in Alaska,
> >his base recieved delivery of P-39's and other aircraft for lend-lease
> transport
> >to the Soviet Union. Planeloads of Soviet pilots arrived every day (as
> >passengers on transport craft), they piled into the aircraft to be delivered
> >and took off. There was a large and ever-growing mound at the end of
> >his base's airstrip, made up of the planes that crashed on take-off.

The other reason for this was that the P-39 was notoriously _different_
to fly. Not a bad design, but for pilots breifly trained in light
front-engined taildraggers, going to a heavier mid engine trike gear
plane with no further training is going to be tricky at best.

I'll bet the pile at the destination field was bigger ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:32:19 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Projectors

Here's another suggestion (Tongue in Cheek):

The TL21 Jump Projector actually has its own supply of Hydrogen. 
It creates the jump bubble "and extends it" around the target ship, 
kinda like a jump tug without the cables ... or the all-powerful Star 
Trek Deflector Dish (God, would I like to have one them ... they do 
everything!) and then pinches off the bubble so only the target ship 
is within the bubble.  The little robot previously transported now 
maintains the bubble.  The projector then uses its before-mentioned 
matter transmission capability to transport the remaining load of 
Hydrogen into a pocket universe.  The little robot also has the 
capability to siphon off the hydrogen from the pocket universe to 
maintain the bubble.

Once the misjump is complete, the little robot does not self-
destruct.  He (sorry Ditzi) turns into a pen and goes to the Planet of 
Lost Pens.

There ... sure its magic.  But we all know about High Tech vs Low 
Tech.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:44:19 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Type TI / TJ scan needed

From what Nicholas Wright told me in personal e-mail, it looks like I was
confusing the ship (the March Harrier) in the back of the Traveller
Adventure with a TI or TJ.  I can't check it myself since I can't find my
copy of the book.  Bummer (especially since the book belongs to someone
else!!).  The good news is that GypsyComet sent me a real clean set of TJ
plans that he had created.

Jesse


>I have the Traveller Book, The Traveller Adventure, just about everything
>MT, all the CT Adventures with deckplans, Traders and Gunboats, and many
>other resources (not, significantly, the Spinward Marches Campaign, which
>may have it) but have never seen deckplans for either the type TI or TJ.
>
>I did not, and do not think such things existed in any official
publication.
>
>Pete
>
>
>Peter H. Brenton
>MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
>(617) 253-3185
>pbrenton@mit.edu
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:48:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Jump Projectors

> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Jump Projectors
> 
> >
> > Still, if Hydrogen support is needed, it must come from somewhere.
> > So how does the TL-21 Jump Projector do it?
> 
> As per my suggestion, the Jump Projector forces the other ship to jump.  The
> target then uses its jump drives and fuel in the process. You can assume  that
> this means  that the target ship is co-opted some way or you can assume that it
> screws up the field in some way to cause a jumping ship to misjump, as a large
> gravity body might do.

That's defined by the description of the weapon.  The problem is that 
it still works on ships without fuel, as no exceptions are listed.

I just realized that the text indicates that the Jump Projector 
works on -ANY- ship, any target vessel, so the target vessel doesn't 
even have to have a jump drive at all.  My bad!  Scratch everything 
I've suggested so far, except for maybe the Star Trek technobabble.  
(Seems my joke was closer to the "truth" than I thought.)

So, the TL-21 Jump Projector hits an in-system SDB without jump 
drives at all, and suddenly the vessel misjumps.  How does it happen?

My suggestion is that a Jump Field is induced by the Jump Projector 
around the target ship, INDEPENDENT of the ship's capacity to enter 
jumpspace or not.  With a TL-21 understanding of JumpSpace, it 
becomes possible that the Projector induces a field that is 
strong/stable enough to sustain itself throughout the entire misjump 
(if you are a Hydrogen leaking fan or not, this should work.)  Since 
no jump vector has been given, no course to follow, it's only natural 
that the target misjumps.

This implies another aspect of Jump Projectors that might be of 
interest to PCs exploring hereto unknown Ancient/Primordial/Elder 
Race bases or civilizations.  If the Jump Projector can be made to 
induce a Jump Field with a programmed Jump Vector, we have the 
capacity for Jump Gate technology.  (I know they probably already 
exist in canon, probably that FF&S book I've heard so much about, but 
the realization is still cool.)  The vessels wouldn't have to have 
Jump Drives, then, as an established Jump Projector site at each 
system could send the vessel to the next location.

<Adventure Idea>

The PCs arrive in system to perform a routine survey.  Sensor Ops 
picks up some strange radio signals from an Ancient site located 
within the atmosphere of a nearby GG.  The vessel moves into position 
to survey the base.  Their scans trigger the "awakening" of a 
disabled Ancient AI assigned to monitor this out-of-the-way system.  
The AI scans the vessel, receives conflicting reports as to its 
identity, and beams a coded sequence to the vessel.  When the proper 
response is not sent by the surveyors, the Monitor initiates its 
defense protocol.

Suddenly, those on board register a surge of energy from the base 
below, and the vessel is thrown into Jump space.  A terrifying week 
later, the vessel emerges in deep space, six parsecs away.  Another 
Monitor nearby automatically performs a similar routine: beam a 
recognition signal, and uses a Jump Projector on the ship when the 
proper response is not given.  A mad series of these planned 
jumps finally drives the crew to submit themselves to the emergency 
low berths.

Some time passes, as the vessel is moved across Known Space, to be 
dumped into that new Sector the Referee wants the PCs to explore.  
The last Monitor station simply imposes a misjump on the PCs' ship, 
effectively removing it from the territory of the Ancient it was 
supposed to defend during the Final War.  The ship tumbles through 
space, on minimal energy reserves, waiting for a reason to become 
active once again.  Some time passes...

On the bridge, a white light on a wall panel starts blinking quietly,
as it strives to tell a crew not present of a closing vessel.

Those beings that discovered the vessel dock with it, and enter the
derelict, only to find the PC crew locked away under Cold Sleep. 
After a quick discussion, the medic begins the process of "thawing
out" his new charges, and the PCs awaken to find themselves in a new
Sector, in potentially new time, and a long, long way from home.

</Adventure Idea>

Cool.  I'll have to give this one some thought.  :)

Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:34:15 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel

> >Maybe it's just another space opera thingamajig, maybe you're just full of
> >hooey.  It's been part of Traveller for a long time and it's not going
away.
> >What goes on in YTU, I frankly don't really care as we're not talking about
> >YTU, but the OTU.  Get it?
> > 
> 
> I see that that is you OPINION.  I design electronic equipment for a living
> and I have a pretty good idea of today's reality as far as the design of the
> systems that I work with on a dayly basis.  There are curtain physical
> realities that are very unlikely to change in any length of time as they are
> defined in the media and physics (example the speed on light in a vacume).
> All I was trying to do was add a little vera similitude to an otherwise
> unbelievable discrition.  Traveller is generally a fairly hard science game
> with a minimum of 'magic' gaggets.  That is one of the things that first
> drew me to traveller 20 years ago.  It was my intent to help define a system
> to alow it's capabilities to be more easily defined in game terms.  It is
> obvious that you are not interested in the opinions of others which if true
> beggs the question, Why are you on a mail list whose purpose is the free
> exchange of ideas about a shared hobby?

Certainly i'm interested in others opinions (even yours, though sometimes I
wonder).  
If I wasn't, I'd have plonked you a looong time ago, much less engaged you in
this discussion.  You've dodged around the main point to duel over peripheral,
and minor, points of specifics.  As I said, ignore the specifics (possibly
uncanonical) mentioned in the SoM.  The general capabilities of EMS sensors
are well established.  There is NO problem between space and atmospheric
interaction.  If you don't agree w/ that, then your problem isn't with me, but
with Traveller.

> >> I do not have SoM and you are talking about a very different rampart that
I
> >> have access to.  6 tons of sensors!  What does that rampart weight?
> >
> >The Rampart masses 186.52 tonnes in BL.  So are the dimensions mentioned
> >acceptable to you, for the capabilities present?
> >
> 
> BL?  What is that?  The rampart I am familiar with is out of CTs AHL and
> IIRC is not nearly that big.  (30 or 50 tons displacement)  I dought a F15
> carries 12000 pounds of sensor equipment.  It's sounds like a lot for an
> attrition unit but perhaps this excessiveness is neccessary to explain it's
> versitility.

You asked how much it *weighed*.  It *MASSES* 186.52 tonnes.  Displacement is
9 tons, compared to the 15dt in Supplement 5.  There are different versions of
the Rampart, you know.

Now, I take it the size of the sensor unit (3 m3, 6 tonnes, 6m2), at TL-15,
makes it that it isn't disagreeable to you?  The F15 doubtfully carries that
much, but the Rampart has at least 6 times the thrust, as well as CG.  We've
been over this already, too.

> >Nice how you skipped all the other points.  The specifics mentioned in the
SoM
> >are irrelevant.  The point is that it's canon for space sensors to be
> 
> I do not have SoM.  I said so before and I do not feel comforable trying to
> discuss something I have never seen.  I can't put your quote into the
> context of the large world view.

<sigh>.  That's why I've said repeatedly to INGORE it.  sheesh.  lol.

> >effective inside the atmosphere and for the atmosphere/ground sensors to be
> >effective in space.  That they're the exact same systems and operating on
the
> >same principles (whatever they are) must just be a happy coinicidence.
> >
> 
> And not at all realistic.  If they work the same, an F15 could detect the
> apollo in orbit arround the moon with it's radar that can not penetrate the
> van allan belts much less the ionosphere and is somehow able to pick up the
> returned signal that in well below the noise threshold!

Don't tell me about it!  I didn't design the sensor systems, nor their
capabilities.  There are sensors gurus on teh list far more qualified than you
and they've never complained about them.  The point is that those are the
capabilities established by canon.  Do you understand?

> TL-9 vs TL-12 was not my point.  Also the game mechanic and design system is
> being compared wheather you wish to admit it or not sence it is the medium
> of the test.  Example:  Try and design a tank using high guard.  Can't be
> done.  There are no rules for tanks in HG.  It's a space ship design system.
> If there are no rules for ducted fan engines, RAM, Tomahawks, Polaris
> missles, exc you can't test your assumptions, you end up testing the game
> mechanics.

That's why I do not use HG.  FF&S covers everythign quite nicely and it's part
of a ground up consistent system (TNE) built to utilize it's designs.

The whole point of any of that was so you could see a combat between a space
fighter and an atmosphere fighter.  You keep claiming the atmosphere fighter
will win, but until you design and astmophere fighter and airframed space
fighter, and are satisfied they are both "optimum" designs, and then put them
in a combat situation, your claims mean nothing.  When you run a combat,
you're likely to see the space fighter wins.  You keep arguing about it, but
don't do the thing to prove it.  Talk is cheap.  You use GURPS.  Use GURPS.
I'm satisfied the results will be just as I've said, despite your "common
sense."  Now maybe the game systems are all flawed and you're right.  It's
more than possible, I suppose.  That we're talking about rpg's makes your
point an exercise in absurdity.

> Really, then what is the power to weight ratio of the following real work
> systems in FF&S:

You said you have FF&S.  Look for yourself.  I recognize most of those things
as being in there w/o looking.  I KNOW ramjets, ducted fans, stub wings,
hardpoints, pylons and masking is in there, but am unsure of the others w/o
looking.
 
> Game systems are inherently limited by what they choose to cover and to what
> degree of accuracy and depth.  Game systems are by difinition limited and
> the universe is by (some) definitions infinite.

No kidding.  It's just a game.  Are you rationalizing why you refuse to put up
or shut up?  Even in the game system of your choice (GURPS, presumably)?  

> >It's seems clear you've never run such a combat, nor are willing to.  Nor
> >designed either a space fighter nor atmosphere fighter, nor are willing to.
> >Very interesting.
> >In short, you're only following your own conception of "logic" to an absurd
> >conclusion.
> > 
> 
> Why do you assume based on limited information drawn from flawed simulations
> designed by non experts (There can be no expert of space war as there has
> never been one in human experience) that your assumptions are correct?  So
> we are dealing with premise, supositions, and logical progressions from them
> them, not fact except where we touch on the real world.
 
So why are YOU here, then?  This is a forum for discussion about a game and
it's environment based on "flawed simulations designed by non-experts."
:::sarcasm:::  Do you actually play?  Would it be such a chore to have, in
your next game session, your game system evaluate whether you're correct or
not?   Or do you already know the answer?  That given the situations and
capabilites of crafts presented, the space fighter will win.  I know the game
answer.  The space fighter wins.  Repeatedly.

> 'all other things being equal' mean just that.  weight, cost, size, TL...
> ALL other things being equall.  That is what I have been saying all along.
> I have no dought that a TL15 will beat a TL9.  TL represents design
> improvements so of course the TL15 will win.  That is a no brainer and I
> said so in one of original posts to this thread.

Has ANYONE's joined been debating *that* with you.  You came into an existing
discussion and changed the subject w/o telling anyone.  Unfortunately, it
seems noone joined you in your main point (if that's it), and stayed with the
original point.  You've kept on as if you've been joined.  Since grav vehicles
and aircraft merge at 
TL-13 (and effectively, space craft, as well), it's kinda ludicrous, though as
someone else mentioned there is a TL-15 craft in COACC (though I'd just as
soon buy some Trepidas and Ramparts instead of those things).  I can certainly
use them both in different roles, saving me hard earned MCr. 

> I have designed hundreds of systems both real and in game.  I have design
> cars, planes, and spacecraft for games in several different design systems.

So do you have an air fighter and a space fighter?  If so, Great!  Before your
next game run a combat and tell us the results (posting the designs would be
nice, too).
If not, you lack the two needed to continue this discussion.

<snip>

> See the point?

Yeah.  It's completely screwey, but yeah.  All of the things you've said,
you've said before and not convinced anyone (well possibly someone).  It's
proven, in game context, by designing the two, comparing, and running a
combat.  Your conclusion is in error, as far as most games are concerned (i'll
bet even in GURPS), given the tech levels involved.  That you refuse to back
up and test your claims is very interesting and possibly very relevant to your
point.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:56:07 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The other reason for this was that the P-39 was notoriously _different_
to fly. Not a bad design, but for pilots breifly trained in light
front-engined taildraggers, going to a heavier mid engine trike gear
plane with no further training is going to be tricky at best.

I'll bet the pile at the destination field was bigger ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Frighteningly so. I've heard an estimate that more than a third of all
lend-lease combat aircraft we handed over to the Soviets never saw
combat, due to causes ranging from pilot error to logistical screw-ups.

ObTrav: Imagine a sector governor or military leader trying to solve a
problem by throwing just technology at it - not planning, or training, or
proper support, just technology.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:40:06 -0500
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: RE: Atmospheric Fighters

I am just now getting past a huge backlog of TML messages, and this is
probably old news by now, but I wanted to throw my .2cr into the mix...

>> A couple of problems here.  The rampart as drawn does not have the wing
>> surface to turn in the atmosphere with an F16 or any other fighter.  In
the
>> atmosphere aerodynamics are what count.
>

I am not sure if wings are an issue, as one of the MOST agile objects out
there are the things that are used to shoot down those pesky fighters...
missiles!  Having worked on various missile systems lets just say that at
any speed a Sidewinder will out turn any F-16, or any aircraft...  back a
few years ago the AIM 9M could do over 45G's in a turn.  The Rampart looks
like some missiles to me, and would work just fine at Mach 25+, or at
500kns, to provide a turning surface.  It may be the best design for the
job.  Both space and air.   Remember, the entire wing could pivot much like
the tail surface on most modern fighters, providing extreme maneuverability.

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #385
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 386



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GT : Fuel Skimmers
Re: Fusion exhaust...
GT : Cargo Space
Re: max accel
Famile Spofulam
Re: Aerospace defense vehicles
Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Weird Science
Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Re: Weird Science
Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Re: max accel
Re: Garbage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:32:01 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GT : Fuel Skimmers

The Modular Cutter with the Fuel Skimmer module can process 16 
dTons of fuel per hour.

How long does it take to get from the ship to the GG?

How long does it take to "scoop?"

How long does it take to transfer the fuel to the mother ship once it 
returns?

I am looking for typical times.

Or do we just assume that these times are negligable compared to 
the hour of refining?

Also ... I saw somewhere in here that the USL hulls in GT were 
really PSL.  Is this correct?




- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 22:01:35 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

On 01 Apr, Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:

> The C-N-O cycle (Bethe Solar Phoenix) may yeild more, but I'm a bit too
> tired to calculate that. Things *definitely* go downhill after that. 

The C-N-O cycle is just a catalyst for the 4H -> He4 reaction.

          C12 + H -> N13,
          N13     -> C13 + e
          C13 + H -> N14,
          N14 + H -> O15
          O15     -> N15 + e
          N15 + H -> C12 + He4

It requires much higher temperatures and pressures but runs faster,
boosting the energy output of stars larger than the sun.

(source "The Physical Universe, F.H.Shu)

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:40:20 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GT : Cargo Space

What is the average percentage of total hull volume dedicated to 
cargo space for a military warship?

Looking for typical values.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:47:11 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: max accel

>At 07:26 PM 4/1/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>On 29 Mar, Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net> wrote:
>>> >>Not actually true as the 40G superdense, space meteorite resistance > >
>>>armour on a Rampart will shrug off the damage. [...]
>>> >
>>> >Check the rampart.  It does not have that kind of armor in CT.
>>> >And exactly what is a G of armor?  [...]
>>
>>> 40G is a MegaTraveller term for a hull with an armor value of 40 made
>>> of material code G (bonded superdense, IIRC). It is the equivalent to
>>> 33 cm of hard steel.

You remember somewhat incorrectly.  It takes 33cm of hard steel to get
armor factor 40.  This is accomplished with equivalent hardness of bonded
superdense which works out to 0.14 of the mass of equivalent steel armor.

In other words, using Bonded Superdense to get the same armor value as 33cm
of hard steel requires about 1/7th the *mass* of equivalent Bonded
Superdense.  The ratio of the mass of armor to the volume of armor material
is a matter for a different discussion, and let's assume for this purpose
that they are about proportional.

>>For further info, according to MT, armour factor 40 is equivalent to
>>CT armour factor 0 (ie minimum armour for a spaceship).
>>
>>So the armour of an Iowa is inferior to a Free Trader (on average).
>>
>
>That flucks the reality test, big time!  A minimum of battle ships armor!?!
>So the hull of all space ships is made of 10+ inches of carbon steel!?!?!

I believe you mean to say "Flunks".

The U.S.S. Iowa has belt armor about 12" thick made of hard steel, that's
about 29 cm.  If the table for armor factor does, in fact, represent
thickness in cm (this is implied, but not stated), then 29cm of hard steel
works out to armor factor 38-39 (the table is such that a much greater
amount of material is required as desired armor level goes up, but its a
bit cheaper than 1-1 until around armor factor 27).  This is pretty close,
but a bit less, than a free trader.  Remember that the Iowa is only armored
in certain places while the Free  Trader is armored equally everywhere, so
the comparison is not really fair.  In truth, the Free Trader is armored
much better on average.  The tower and turrets of the Iowa, for example,
can have as much as 17.3 inches=42cm which is armor factor 42-43, while the
deck surface is about 6 inches=14.5cm which is Armor Factor 30.  Many areas
are not "armored" at all, but probaly have about an inch of steel anyway,
and are therefore armor factor 10 or so.

I do not find the superiority of the Free Trader terribly outside the realm
of (Traveller) reality for several reasons;

1). The energy of a small piece of debris travelling very fast in an
opposite direction can easily be greater than a WWII large caliber shell
fired in a typical battleship conflict, which is what the Iowa was designed
to resist.  Ships which commonly travel in space, where space is a busy
place, need an armored surface which will resist 99.99% of debris strikes.

2). The "cost" in terms of weight and volume (the latter is not measured by
MT) to apply this level of armor is not out of scale with the vessel's
budget, in general. In comparison, the cost of armoring WWI and WWII
battleships became unbearable in terms of the effect additional weight had
on the speed of the craft.  Moving to the Belt/Turret/Conning Tower only
armor instead of all around protection was a sign of (and partially a
solution to) this problem.

3). Compare the armor "value" of a TL2 warship with the armor of the TL5
merchant and you will find a tremendous difference in the possible
capability and comparitive level of "acceptable" armor.  I would guess that
a Greek Trireme, with its 6" of oak (I'm guessing here) was not nearly as
well armored as a typical merchant of the 1930s with all of two inches of
hard steel.  In addition, we arent talking about a 3 Tech Level gap, but a
9 TL gap (Iowa, as built, is TL5, Far Traders are around TL14)!

No, I would not especially want to be aboard Iowa when she goes up against
the March Harrier.  Nor do I wish to be onboard an F-22 against a rampart.
For that matter, I don't want to be onboard an Iowa against a rampart, the
Tech Level delta is just way too big!

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:22:27 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Famile Spofulam

Well, I pronounce it as fam-i-lay spof-u-lam.

Famile Spofulam is presumably one of those family-run concerns. The current
head is the redoubtable Hengabar Spofulam, althought Ditzie is gaining
mindshare fast.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:31:52 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Aerospace defense vehicles

>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: re: max accel
>
>I'd build laser armed stealth planes with missle bays.  

Hmmm, Charles, have you seen the effective damage of lasers vis a vis
fusion guns lately ?

Trust me, a laser doesnt scratch a heavy grav tank, once you take the 50 MJ
per tech level limit into account.

Missiles, sure. These wouldnt happen to have nuclear warheads would they ?

>Good for air combat
>and anti space craft work.  My planes are hard to see, the space ship are
>easy to see during interface.  Fry them crispy and send the missles out NOE
>after the one you miss.  Add some deep meson sites payed for with less money
>than you spent on jump drives to get here and thing get interesting.

Well, when conducting the interface you arrange for a big meteor shower.
Nothing that will cause damage too much to the environment, but enough to
produce lots and lots of interference.

Given visual engagement range, you will need a lot of defensive craft to
cover the entire planet.

>No you can't.  I see you, I shoot you.  Range is LOS.  

See above.

>I'd add some smart
>air breathing surface skimming missles with Det-laser warheads for over the
>horison work and CG to increase dwell time and allow for vtol without the
>normal weight penalties for vtol. 

Air breathing missiles will be slow enough to pick off with lasers. Det
warheads have issues under the Imperial Rules of War, and in any case are
vulnerable to nuke dampers.

> You have the A-10 from hell.  Massive war
>load, Stealth to stay out of your percieved LOS, vtol, LOS light speed guns,
>and fight while in difilade capable.  Toss in some remote sensor modules for
>early warning and FO capacity and you have a squadron killer.

It's a grav tank.

>
>You can not pick this craft up on passive sensors beyond vissual range.

Maybe. Remember, stealth is bloody expensive.

>Frankly I think they will be more like light tanks that fly and fight from
>hidden and prepare position when posible.
>

You take light tanks, I'll take heavy tanks.

But good to see you are abandoning that silly TL5-8 concept of speed in the
air being important.

>True for civilian vehicles but when in combat you want every edge you can
>get.  Whay do you think we spend 1M per tomahawk when an old B52 has a
>better range, warload, and is reuseable?  Because of lives and the value we
>place on them.  Most militaries realise that trained personell are their
>scariest resource and take step to protect them.

Casualties are the price of victory. Tomohawks have their uses, but I'd
prefer an F111 nine times out of ten.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:42:31 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

<snip>

Sounds good Dom, though of course I have my own theory for MTU (and make no
claims on canonicity).  The only thing I'd quibble w/ yours on is that I
thought the field was teh shape of the ship, just extending out a meter or so,
not a sphere?
You make me want to give my own watery musings on it.  :-)

My theory goes thus.  Fuel is used according to FF&S explanation of being a
combo of "fuel, coolant, and displacement mass," all of which is lhyd.  The
fuel and coolant are effectively put in the drive together (which is primarily
a fusion plant and a lanthanum coil).   The displacement mass is used not in
jumpspace but in the space left behind by the ship from the jump point and
precedes the ship in precipitation "clearing" that space.  

There is a j-field (hugging the shape of the ship about a meter or so out)
that is  established and maintained by the coil, using power from the reactor
(using the lhyd as fuel and coolant) via the HPG bank.  Fluctuations, caused
by impurities, or flaws in equipment or in the astrogation or energy transfer
from reactor to coil (task rolls by astrogator and engineer, respectively),
can cause madness, injury, and/or death to personnel, damaging and causing
malfunction in equipment.  There is a grid, of sorts, also usually lanthanum,
but it's more of a wiring thing (that gives the same appearance as the front
of the SoM, jump flash et al) that is a redundant system to the coil
(facilitates the easy maintenance and modulation of the J-field.  Not
necessary, but correcting a bad field is two diff mods more difficult w/o).

There is a jump governor (along w/ a connection to the main comp for
redundancy), too, but it's purpose is to precisely carry out instructions to
the various componets given by the calculated jump trajectory.  The other
componet is the HPG bank, which stores the energy generated by the reactor.
The energy is "purified" (regulated) to consistent properties and stored to be
transfered to the coil.

I've been thinking of having the HPG only be used for the initial surge (a
large store of energy from teh reactor being required) and having only a
residual energy of some kind be needed.  This would enable all fuel to be
guzzled in the beginning, too, though I've always held a distaste for that,
but would seem to bring me closer to canon.

Alternately, it can be made possible for lhyd to not be needed anymore (the
fuel supplanted by antimatter or solar arrays (after a loong time), coolant
replaced by usage of the ship's power radiators (which IMTU is effectively
part of the manuever drive, thus consuming no exclusive surface area), which
isn't as efficient as the lhyd and must be carefully measured not to exceed
radiator capacity (don't want to roast everyone inside).  The displacement
mass part is the tricky part, but by directly transfering alot of power (easy
w/ antimatter, requiring the shutdown of other systems) directly to the coil
and in concert w/ CG, can be done by gravitics.

The specifics I'll need to work on, but I envision a practical need by the
Vilani to do jump dimming (transferring all weapons, defensive, and even some
of the life support power) to the coil, as IMTU the Ziru Sirka jump drives
(particularly the J2 ones) didn't use displacement mass but did it the "hard
way."  The Terran theories did, and the ROM and 3I followed the Terran path to
where jump dimming was was just a cultural thing by the Vilani.  

Hmm... this is making my gearhead insticts flare...  maybe FF&S3 will enable
us to custom build J-drives.  I think my next traveller project might be to
dissect FF&S jump drives to where I can add and subtract all these things.
:-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:03:43 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Weird Science

Once again, the following was found at abc.com
Check their "Science" section for additional
details.


Special to ABCNEWS.com

Strange Roswell Material Confirmed

The Hume and Bacon Institute for Alternative Science,
located outside of Edinburgh, Scotland has just published
some of its recent findings in the British science
journal Languet (Vol. 233, 1999). As the details of the
article become known, they will prove quite startling to
many. 

In a news conference, Paul A. Yiannis, the institute's
director, stated that his staff had convincingly
verified a number of controversial claims. 

The first involves a strange piece of metal found in
Roswell, N.M., where many believe an alien spacecraft
crashed in 1947. The fragment has quite an amazing 
property: It exerts a faint physical attraction on
every information-processing instrument so far tested.
Moreover, this attraction is nine times as strong one
foot away from the metal as it is one yard away. 

What to make of the fragment's effect is open to 
differing interpretations, but it can no longer be denied.
Yiannis maintains that the relation of this phenomenon to
the new physics of string theory will be an active area of
research in the 21st century.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 17:06:47 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> <snip>
>
> Sounds good Dom, though of course I have my own theory for MTU (and make no
> claims on canonicity).  The only thing I'd quibble w/ yours on is that I
> thought the field was teh shape of the ship, just extending out a meter or so,
> not a sphere?

You missed the part about the grid.  The Natural shape of a jump field is a
spheroid around the coil.  Larger coil = bigger spheroid.  This becomes cost
ineffective for ships that are really long because you'd need a coil large enough
to encompass the longest part of the ship.  To cut down on expensive coil size,
you introduce jump grids which squish the spheroid shape into a tighter skin at an
arbitrary distance from the hull (1-2 meters).  Thus the unification of coils and
grids.  You always need the coil, but grids make best use of the field.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 17:09:59 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Weird Science

Smart, David J (David) wrote:

> Once again, the following was found at abc.com
> Check their "Science" section for additional
> details.
>
> Special to ABCNEWS.com
>
> Strange Roswell Material Confirmed
>
> The Hume and Bacon Institute for Alternative Science,
> located outside of Edinburgh, Scotland has just published
> some of its recent findings in the British science
> journal Languet (Vol. 233, 1999). As the details of the
> article become known, they will prove quite startling to
> many.
>
> In a news conference, Paul A. Yiannis, the institute's
> director, stated that his staff had convincingly
> verified a number of controversial claims.
>
> The first involves a strange piece of metal found in
> Roswell, N.M., where many believe an alien spacecraft
> crashed in 1947. The fragment has quite an amazing
> property: It exerts a faint physical attraction on
> every information-processing instrument so far tested.
> Moreover, this attraction is nine times as strong one
> foot away from the metal as it is one yard away.
>
> What to make of the fragment's effect is open to
> differing interpretations, but it can no longer be denied.
> Yiannis maintains that the relation of this phenomenon to
> the new physics of string theory will be an active area of
> research in the 21st century.

Or we can assume its an April Fools joke.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:15:04 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

[snip]

>Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with humans.

[snip]

>How about that,

I like it all except for the above bit. There is no reason to believe that
visual phenomena can cause psychological problems in otherwise normal
humans (unless that visual phenomena contains actual symbolic content, like
seeing your loved ones being killed).

However, if you are of the mind to believe that visual phenomena *can*
cause psychological problems, then why can't TTL-15 holographic technology
replicate it for use as a psyops weapon?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:21:06 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

> News to me.  I play CT and GT.  I have FF&S v1 and have read it (never
used
> it for designs, I got it after GV came out as a source for ideas)but I do
> not recall neural jacks.

Neural Jacks - FFS v1 p. 82 (Table)

> I'm sorry.  I do not have my books here.  I read but do not use FF&S1.  I
> did not see any reference to any of the above systems.  Perhaps they are
> portrayed under other game mechanics.  My point was that FF&S did not have
> the depth to simulate the systems of an advanced air fighter.

> Raidial IC fix speed and adjustable prop:

> Turbo prop:
FFS v1 p. 69 (right column, paragraph 5)

> Ram jet:
FFS v1 p. 70 (Table)

> ducted fan jet:
FFS v1 p. 75 (right column, Heading '1. Ducted Fans)

> What about the effects of the folowing features:

> Stub wings:
> Hard points:
> Pylons:
FFS v1 p. 33 (Left Column, Heading 'Weapons Mounts')

> Thermal masking:
FFS v1 p. 53 (Right Column, Headings: 'Stealth' and Electromagnetic Masking)
Read the columns, Thermal effects are included.



Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:23:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

- --============_-1289117069==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:30:59 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Jump energy from black globes is a whole 'nuther debate.  The Jumpspace
>article would seem to indicate (and the black globe issue would probably
>support) that lhyd isn't needed, especially if antimatter power is available.
>But that rationale, you could possibly transmit power to another ship and get
>the same "jump station" effect, couldnt u?

I'm not saying its a good thing...  I'm just saying that if want
to invoke "canon" thats the way it is.  If you want to change it
(and I, in fact would, to "drop" drop tanks) then you should a
admit that it is a change.

>Original CT (book 2? HG?) is so abstract, that it makes a look into the
>workings of jump drives and jump theory difficult, at best.  YMMV.

The point is not that is this (or other situations deleted) "prove"
the point.  The issues is that there are a number of exmaples
(your antimatter one being yet another), all of which treat
the issue at hand one way.

>> I think drop tanks fit in with how jump was described (with the
>> addition that they allowed fuel to be used before jump).  However,
>> I also think that insuficient thought was given to their impact on the
>> background, which is non-trivial.

>Their time of introduction and the uncertainty about them alleviates this.
>You may well be right, but they dont' *have to* have the catastrophic effect
>on economics unless u want them to.  Perhaps they *should* have that effect,
>anyways.

Well, I don't agree.  Aside from the contrived feel you get
if you carefully arrange them to be dangerous (or whatever)
at exactly a certain level, and never have this change as they
get become more common (if they were sort of working , a lot of
people would be very interested in working ou the bugs), they
still should become derigure for miltary vessels, fast couriers,
etc.  To the point that much of the plot should involve the
shifts in power balance and responses vis a vis the Zhodani
(and others).

If you say, "Oh, they just happen to be to dangerous for
anyone but PC and there is nothing that even the hordes of
IMperial scientists can do about it" my answer is both
"yuk" and that it really doesn't fully solve the problem
they present.

>Drop tanks have always been an asterisk in Traveller ship design.

Because they have never been explored.  They were introduced and
their implicatons were totally (and unrealistically, ignored).

>  Their
>application in that substandard ship is hardly the catastrophic thing you
>proclaim it as.

I don't agree.  If they exist as presented, shipping throughout
the Imperium should be systematically switching to them.  That
this doesn't happen, for no apparent reason, is odd and makes
the background less believable.

> I've always seen them as a marginal technology in a marginal ship
>design

But they aren't.  The jump fuel volume requirements are so
large that they are quited a fundamental change to how shipping
works.

>It seems to me like a strawman, though it's possible I'm
>reading more into it than you intend.  Do you have any PCs running around in
>Gazelles?  How many times are Gazelles encountered?

The problem
is that they should be the revolutionary change of the decade in
the Imperium.  You should see the shipping changing from a "you
go and your jump where you want" to a "almost everyone jumps at
the jump station" (like in B5).  The changes should
be rippling through the Imperium, making some companies rich,
driving others out of business, changing the balance of power
(much as jump -3 is suppose to have done for the Solomani),
causes shipping prices to change radically (rendering the
economic rules in CT, MT and Far Trader obsolete), whether
the government is setting up fuel stations or corps are
doing it, if corps are doing it are the cooperating or
(perhaps) sabatoging their rivals, etc.
It also has problem with PCs in at, if they don't have
a ship designed for drop tanks, they should have to be
dealing with competition from drop tanked ships.

It's like some discovered a way to do jump-12 and nobody cared...

>  Their operation is
>something intended as innovative, but hardly with a clear advantage to it's
>usage, especially if there seems to be some danger to the ship their used on
>(as the TNS entry indicates).

Well, my take was that is was sabatage.  There had been
the explosions at the shipyard and their hadn't been troubles
in the interior.  Even if you don't agree, the article doesn't
invoke a fundamental limitation, but instead simple quality
control neglegence on the part of General shipyards.  The
fact that this problem hadn't come up in the previous 12 years
indicates that it isn't a fundamental problem.  Not are there
any rules (from memory) that say they are dangerous.

In fact, the TNS entries state that they _are_ being used for
commerical purposes in the core ("for the last dozen years") and
the author himself felt they should have a radical change
in shipping ("the dawn of a new era of commerce").

>> of the causes of a background with holes in it and a "hokey"
>> feel).  This a) is a lot of work, b) if it is handled badly
>> it can introduce other things that are hokey, c) exploring
>> all the consequences of this can hijack the plotline from
>> more interesting things (there really is a limit to the

>C'mon.  That's just silly.  Do your PCs run a shipyard?  Do they get custom
>designs commissioned?  By a starport even capable of doing drop tanks?

Gee, maybe they have a far trader and have to worry about competing
with them?  It invalidates the assumptions made, for example, in
the excelent book on economics, Fat Trader.  Or if you are running
an military ops campaign, the presence of drop tanks should make
a big difference.

Even if it didn't affect them directly, it changes
the background a lot (do pirates have to attack stations, some
have argued this would indeed be the death of piracy).  It will
change the balance of power with the Zhondani.  Maybe
you don't think the background matters if doesn't change
how the PC jump to the next system.  I do.

>It's fairly easy to say
>there's a reason why the use of drop tanks is limited to the gazelle?

More contrived situations.  Yuk....

>> It is not _that_ much of a backwater.  It can make them (gosh, they
>> were first made localy weren't they?) and they will save people
>> in the Marches just as much money.

>Sure it is, at least compared to the Core.  The players will never see the
>result, as on the Imperiums scale and rate of movement and "age of sail" feel,
>it could be hundreds of years before they make their way into common usage.

Hog wash.  The point was that they were coming into common usage
in the Spinward Marches _now_.  Also, the idea that it would
take 100 years for people in the Spinward Marches (who can get
blueprints in a year) is just absurd.

>It's only a problem if u want it to be (or have some interest in getting rid
>of them).

I guess we see it differently, most of these arguements seem
weak and unbelievalbe to me.  To me they are the sort of
shallow rationalizations that cause me to avoid AD&D.,

>Jump projectors, not drop tanks, are the hokey new technology.

They are "advanced".  The phrase "new" here meant "new addition
to canon".

>  How do they
>work, based on your model of jump drive?  Who knows.

I haven't presented a model in this thread.

>  Have they *ever*
>appeared in one of your campaigns to be a consideration?

No, because they are TL 22(?).  If they were a technology that
the Imperium could build now, they would have the exact same
issues.

>  It's ancients
>technology and Clarke's Law applies.  Black globes have big problems on their
>own, and transfering the energy to jump dooms most jump theories.  Economic
>changes.  You could have a beef here.

Black globes are indeed ancient techology that the Imperium doesn't
understand (and is only able to copy, they don't even know if
they are using them for the intended purpose).  This isn't true
of drop tanks.

>  It's ignoring it in a really sad way
>IMO, as there's plenty of ways to rationalize how it will never have an effect
>in your campaigns time period.

They are a technology that one would expect not have as big effect.
They are something that takes a bigger ships to use effectively and
they are hard to make, unlike drop tanks which are suppose to
have been in use for years.  Also, changing the difficulties
of FTL travel (which is one of the fundamental principals that
Traveller was founded on) is a lot more fundamental than adding
a new military toy.

Black globes have been reasonable explored, unlike drop tanks...

>> If you abolish them, there are no economic issues.  The
>> economics were written without them in mind.  (In GT, drop
>> tanks would mean revamping significan portions of Far Trader).

>Look at the way you deal with the problem.  You can't believe they have an
>instant effect.  Given the date of their introduction (presuming early 1100s),
>it'll be decades, if not centuries before they make a widespread appearance.

Centuries is absurd.  Sure it will take decades.  Decades in
which they are driving force for change (as I mention above),
unless you want to divert the timeline to deal with those
decades of change you have issues....

>I'm not sure on the scale of Far Trader, as I don't have it, but don't see how
>it would affect free traders, in particular, much less anything less than a
>megacrop, in general,  before the centuries hash mark.  It's not a concern.  I
>wonder why you're against them so, as none of the reasons you've given will
>have any effect on campaigning unless u want it to.

Because Free Trader seeks to allow the PC to conduct their
trading in way that fits in realistically with how the universe
around them is suppose to work.  They didn't just come up with a few
arbitrary rules and say that, if it isn't unbalanced as a
game mechanic, it is "fine".  Instead it takes the way the
Imperium is portrayed and works out the economics from the ground
up.  Allowing on to do thing like look at a world and figure
out how busy the port will be when the PC's get there.  This
give us a detailed, believable, and interesting system that
allows many events and situations for the PC to flow naturally
and believably from the stitation.

Saying that things will arbitrarily work a certain way and
not caring if it makes sense reagarding how the setting is
suppose to work may work for you, but it doesn't for a lot
of us.  If how the world around the PC works doesn't affect
them, why even bother with a setting?  Just set up the worlds
they visit and ignore rest?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
- --============_-1289117069==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:30:59 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com

>Jump energy from black globes is a whole 'nuther debate.  The
Jumpspace

>article would seem to indicate (and the black globe issue would
probably

>support) that lhyd isn't needed, especially if antimatter power is
available.

>But that rationale, you could possibly transmit power to another ship
and get

>the same "jump station" effect, couldnt u?


I'm not saying its a good thing...  I'm just saying that if want

to invoke "canon" thats the way it is.  If you want to change it

(and I, in fact would, to "drop" drop tanks) then you should a

admit that it is a change.


>Original CT (book 2? HG?) is so abstract, that it makes a look into
the

>workings of jump drives and jump theory difficult, at best.  YMMV.


The point is not that is this (or other situations deleted) "prove"

the point.  The issues is that there are a number of exmaples

(your antimatter one being yet another), all of which treat

the issue at hand one way.


>> I think drop tanks fit in with how jump was described (with the

>> addition that they allowed fuel to be used before jump).  However,

>> I also think that insuficient thought was given to their impact on
the

>> background, which is non-trivial.


>Their time of introduction and the uncertainty about them alleviates
this.

>You may well be right, but they dont' *have to* have the catastrophic
effect

>on economics unless u want them to.  Perhaps they *should* have that
effect,

>anyways.


Well, I don't agree.  Aside from the contrived feel you get

if you carefully arrange them to be dangerous (or whatever) 

at exactly a certain level, and never have this change as they

get become more common (if they were sort of working , a lot of

people would be very interested in working ou the bugs), they

still should become derigure for miltary vessels, fast couriers,

etc.  To the point that much of the plot should involve the 

shifts in power balance and responses vis a vis the Zhodani

(and others).


If you say, "Oh, they just happen to be to dangerous for

anyone but PC and there is nothing that even the hordes of

IMperial scientists can do about it" my answer is both

"yuk" and that it really doesn't fully solve the problem

they present.


>Drop tanks have always been an asterisk in Traveller ship design.


Because they have never been explored.  They were introduced and

their implicatons were totally (and unrealistically, ignored).


>  Their

>application in that substandard ship is hardly the catastrophic thing
you

>proclaim it as.


I don't agree.  If they exist as presented, shipping throughout

the Imperium should be systematically switching to them.  That

this doesn't happen, for no apparent reason, is odd and makes

the background less believable.


> I've always seen them as a marginal technology in a marginal ship

>design


But they aren't.  The jump fuel volume requirements are so

large that they are quited a fundamental change to how shipping

works.


>It seems to me like a strawman, though it's possible I'm

>reading more into it than you intend.  Do you have any PCs running
around in

>Gazelles?  How many times are Gazelles encountered?


The problem

is that they should be the revolutionary change of the decade in

the Imperium.  You should see the shipping changing from a "you

go and your jump where you want" to a "almost everyone jumps at

the jump station" (like in B5).  The changes should

be rippling through the Imperium, making some companies rich,

driving others out of business, changing the balance of power

(much as jump -3 is suppose to have done for the Solomani),

causes shipping prices to change radically (rendering the

economic rules in CT, MT and Far Trader obsolete), whether

the government is setting up fuel stations or corps are 

doing it, if corps are doing it are the cooperating or

(perhaps) sabatoging their rivals, etc.

It also has problem with PCs in at, if they don't have

a ship designed for drop tanks, they should have to be

dealing with competition from drop tanked ships.  


It's like some discovered a way to do jump-12 and nobody cared...


>  Their operation is

>something intended as innovative, but hardly with a clear advantage to
it's

>usage, especially if there seems to be some danger to the ship their
used on

>(as the TNS entry indicates).


Well, my take was that is was sabatage.  There had been

the explosions at the shipyard and their hadn't been troubles

in the interior.  Even if you don't agree, the article doesn't

invoke a fundamental limitation, but instead simple quality

control neglegence on the part of General shipyards.  The

fact that this problem hadn't come up in the previous 12 years

indicates that it isn't a fundamental problem.  Not are there

any rules (from memory) that say they are dangerous.


In fact, the TNS entries state that they _are_ being used for

commerical purposes in the core ("<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>for
the last dozen years</fontfamily>") and 

the author himself felt they should have a radical change

in shipping ("<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>the dawn of a new era of
commerce</fontfamily>").


>> of the causes of a background with holes in it and a "hokey"

>> feel).  This a) is a lot of work, b) if it is handled badly

>> it can introduce other things that are hokey, c) exploring

>> all the consequences of this can hijack the plotline from

>> more interesting things (there really is a limit to the


>C'mon.  That's just silly.  Do your PCs run a shipyard?  Do they get
custom

>designs commissioned?  By a starport even capable of doing drop tanks?
 


Gee, maybe they have a far trader and have to worry about competing

with them?  It invalidates the assumptions made, for example, in

the excelent book on economics, Fat Trader.  Or if you are running

an military ops campaign, the presence of drop tanks should make

a big difference.


Even if it didn't affect them directly, it changes

the background a lot (do pirates have to attack stations, some

have argued this would indeed be the death of piracy).  It will

change the balance of power with the Zhondani.  Maybe

you don't think the background matters if doesn't change

how the PC jump to the next system.  I do.


>It's fairly easy to say

>there's a reason why the use of drop tanks is limited to the gazelle?


More contrived situations.  Yuk....


>> It is not _that_ much of a backwater.  It can make them (gosh, they

>> were first made localy weren't they?) and they will save people

>> in the Marches just as much money.


>Sure it is, at least compared to the Core.  The players will never see
the

>result, as on the Imperiums scale and rate of movement and "age of
sail" feel,

>it could be hundreds of years before they make their way into common
usage.


Hog wash.  The point was that they were coming into common usage

in the Spinward Marches _now_.  Also, the idea that it would

take 100 years for people in the Spinward Marches (who can get

blueprints in a year) is just absurd.


>It's only a problem if u want it to be (or have some interest in
getting rid

>of them).


I guess we see it differently, most of these arguements seem

weak and unbelievalbe to me.  To me they are the sort of 

shallow rationalizations that cause me to avoid AD&D.,


>Jump projectors, not drop tanks, are the hokey new technology.


They are "advanced".  The phrase "new" here meant "new addition

to canon".


>  How do they

>work, based on your model of jump drive?  Who knows.


I haven't presented a model in this thread.


>  Have they *ever*

>appeared in one of your campaigns to be a consideration?


No, because they are TL 22(?).  If they were a technology that

the Imperium could build now, they would have the exact same

issues.


>  It's ancients

>technology and Clarke's Law applies.  Black globes have big problems
on their

>own, and transfering the energy to jump dooms most jump theories. 
Economic

>changes.  You could have a beef here.


Black globes are indeed ancient techology that the Imperium doesn't

understand (and is only able to copy, they don't even know if

they are using them for the intended purpose).  This isn't true

of drop tanks.  


>  It's ignoring it in a really sad way

>IMO, as there's plenty of ways to rationalize how it will never have
an effect

>in your campaigns time period.


They are a technology that one would expect not have as big effect.

They are something that takes a bigger ships to use effectively and

they are hard to make, unlike drop tanks which are suppose to

have been in use for years.  Also, changing the difficulties

of FTL travel (which is one of the fundamental principals that

Traveller was founded on) is a lot more fundamental than adding

a new military toy.


Black globes have been reasonable explored, unlike drop tanks...


>> If you abolish them, there are no economic issues.  The

>> economics were written without them in mind.  (In GT, drop

>> tanks would mean revamping significan portions of Far Trader).


>Look at the way you deal with the problem.  You can't believe they
have an

>instant effect.  Given the date of their introduction (presuming early
1100s),

>it'll be decades, if not centuries before they make a widespread
appearance.


Centuries is absurd.  Sure it will take decades.  Decades in

which they are driving force for change (as I mention above),

unless you want to divert the timeline to deal with those

decades of change you have issues....


>I'm not sure on the scale of Far Trader, as I don't have it, but don't
see how

>it would affect free traders, in particular, much less anything less
than a

>megacrop, in general,  before the centuries hash mark.  It's not a
concern.  I

>wonder why you're against them so, as none of the reasons you've given
will

>have any effect on campaigning unless u want it to.


Because Free Trader seeks to allow the PC to conduct their

trading in way that fits in realistically with how the universe 

around them is suppose to work.  They didn't just come up with a few 

arbitrary rules and say that, if it isn't unbalanced as a

game mechanic, it is "fine".  Instead it takes the way the

Imperium is portrayed and works out the economics from the ground

up.  Allowing on to do thing like look at a world and figure

out how busy the port will be when the PC's get there.  This

give us a detailed, believable, and interesting system that

allows many events and situations for the PC to flow naturally

and believably from the stitation.


Saying that things will arbitrarily work a certain way and 

not caring if it makes sense reagarding how the setting is

suppose to work may work for you, but it doesn't for a lot

of us.  If how the world around the PC works doesn't affect

them, why even bother with a setting?  Just set up the worlds

they visit and ignore rest?

<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>______________________________

summers@alum.mit.edu

(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)</fontfamily>

- --============_-1289117069==_ma============--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #386
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 387



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Hull armor (was Re: max accel)
Re: Weird Science
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #386
Re: Weird Science
Re: Weird Science
Re: The Bolo Books  [more info and a handy URL]
autofire/rapid fire
Re: Weird Science
Re: Type TI / TJ scan needed
re: max accel
Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage
Re: max accel
Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Re: max accel
re: max accel
re:Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:34:10 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Hull armor (was Re: max accel)

>>>> 40G is a MegaTraveller term for a hull with an armor value of 40 made
>>>> of material code G (bonded superdense, IIRC). It is the equivalent to
>>>> 33 cm of hard steel.
>
>You remember somewhat incorrectly.  It takes 33cm of hard steel to get
>armor factor 40.  This is accomplished with equivalent hardness of bonded
>superdense which works out to 0.14 of the mass of equivalent steel armor.


Okay, I'm confused. I essentially stated that a hull with an armor value of
40 is the equivalent of 33 cm of hard steel.

What I meant by this was that a hull of bonded superdense with an armor
value of 40 gives the same protection as a hull of hard steel 33 cm thick.
I made no mention of how much superdense it takes to give this protection
(did I?).

Is this not the case? Or was I just unclear in my statement?


>In other words, using Bonded Superdense to get the same armor value as 33cm
>of hard steel requires about 1/7th the *mass* of equivalent Bonded
>Superdense.  The ratio of the mass of armor to the volume of armor material
>is a matter for a different discussion, and let's assume for this purpose
>that they are about proportional.


I thought it meant that a hull made of bonded superdense with _n_
protection massed 14% (1/7th) what a hard steel hull with _n_ protection
did. Or is this what you just said? :-)

BTW, where can I find this "different discussion?" Can I start one? :-)

Does the 0.14 modifier mean that a hull of superdense masses the same as
hard steel hull but is 14% the thickness? Or does superdense mass *more*
than hard steel per cc (being superdense, it would seem this is the case),
making hulls  even thinner?

Just how thick is a 40G hull, anyhoo?


Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:39:57 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Weird Science

Joe Pettit posted:
>
>Smart, David J (David) wrote:
>
>> Once again, the following was found at abc.com
>> Check their "Science" section for additional
>> details.
>>
>> Special to ABCNEWS.com
>>
>> Strange Roswell Material Confirmed
>>
>> The Hume and Bacon Institute for Alternative Science,
>> located outside of Edinburgh, Scotland has just published
>> some of its recent findings in the British science
>> journal Languet (Vol. 233, 1999). As the details of the
>> article become known, they will prove quite startling to
>> many.
>>
>> In a news conference, Paul A. Yiannis, the institute's
>> director, stated that his staff had convincingly
>> verified a number of controversial claims.
>>
>> The first involves a strange piece of metal found in
>> Roswell, N.M., where many believe an alien spacecraft
>> crashed in 1947. The fragment has quite an amazing
>> property: It exerts a faint physical attraction on
>> every information-processing instrument so far tested.
>> Moreover, this attraction is nine times as strong one
>> foot away from the metal as it is one yard away.
<snip>
>
>Or we can assume its an April Fools joke.

Aw, nerts. Busted.

Actually, the properties of the metal are absolutely true
and can be confirmed by any lab anywhere. But..can
anyone tell me *why* this story is an April Fools
joke?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:51:02 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #386

From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
>
> The first involves a strange piece of metal found in
> Roswell, N.M., where many believe an alien spacecraft
> crashed in 1947. The fragment has quite an amazing
> property: It exerts a faint physical attraction on
> every information-processing instrument so far tested.
> Moreover, this attraction is nine times as strong one
> foot away from the metal as it is one yard away.

Wow! Aliens in 1947 had mastered the secret of 
magnetism?

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:58:51 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Weird Science

> >> The first involves a strange piece of metal found in
> >> Roswell, N.M., where many believe an alien spacecraft
> >> crashed in 1947. The fragment has quite an amazing
> >> property: It exerts a faint physical attraction on
> >> every information-processing instrument so far tested.
> >> Moreover, this attraction is nine times as strong one
> >> foot away from the metal as it is one yard away.
> <snip>
> >
> >Or we can assume its an April Fools joke.
>
> Aw, nerts. Busted.
>
> Actually, the properties of the metal are absolutely true
> and can be confirmed by any lab anywhere. But..can
> anyone tell me *why* this story is an April Fools
> joke?

I'll hazzard a guess, the property described above
is...(drum-roll)...gravity.

I had a joke for Lirpa Sloof, but I decided against it...as I didn't want to
create bad feelings on the list (as practical jokes often do).  This one was
rather innocuous, but funny...

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 18:01:52 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Weird Science

Smart, David J (David) wrote:

> Joe Pettit posted:
> >
> >Smart, David J (David) wrote:
> >
> >> Once again, the following was found at abc.com
> >> Check their "Science" section for additional
> >> details.
> >>
> >> Special to ABCNEWS.com
> >>
> >> Strange Roswell Material Confirmed
> >>
> >> The Hume and Bacon Institute for Alternative Science,
> >> located outside of Edinburgh, Scotland has just published
> >> some of its recent findings in the British science
> >> journal Languet (Vol. 233, 1999). As the details of the
> >> article become known, they will prove quite startling to
> >> many.
> >>
> >> In a news conference, Paul A. Yiannis, the institute's
> >> director, stated that his staff had convincingly
> >> verified a number of controversial claims.
> >>
> >> The first involves a strange piece of metal found in
> >> Roswell, N.M., where many believe an alien spacecraft
> >> crashed in 1947. The fragment has quite an amazing
> >> property: It exerts a faint physical attraction on
> >> every information-processing instrument so far tested.
> >> Moreover, this attraction is nine times as strong one
> >> foot away from the metal as it is one yard away.
> <snip>
> >
> >Or we can assume its an April Fools joke.
>
> Aw, nerts. Busted.
>
> Actually, the properties of the metal are absolutely true
> and can be confirmed by any lab anywhere. But..can
> anyone tell me *why* this story is an April Fools
> joke?

Because of the word Roswell being uttered on April first?

Actually, I'd guess it has something to do with magnetism and all
information processing equipment is electronic and produces some sort of
field effects.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:17:28 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The Bolo Books  [more info and a handy URL]

> From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>

> But, Glenn hasn't checked out the latest Bolo books.
> 
> "Bolo Rising" (Baen 1998) and "Bolo Brigade" (Baen 1997)
>   by [pretend to be surprised] William Keith.
> 
> The list of Bolo historians is rather impressive... 
> (in no particular order)

>   Data shamelessly borrowed from the Bolo Central Command site...
>   http://www.erielink.com/~ardhen/bcc/frames/boloframe.htm

Thanks for the link!  And thanks to Juliean for the bibliography (by
email off list).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:46:15 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: autofire/rapid fire

MT rules system:

Guass rifle has 3 autofire targets
autofire rules say 3 additional adjacacent targets can be made
rapid fire says increase difficulty by 1, 3 primary targets can be choosen.

Does this mean that a guass rifle, conducting rapid fire, has the ability to
hit 4 targets 3 times?

Is their any reason why the autofire targets can't be the same target? For
example, if their is only one target, why can't you "unload" your weapon on
that one target and get 12 chances to hit? or spread it out between 2
targets with 6 possible hits each?

One of my players wants to duct tape two guass rifles together and attach
the triggers with a metal rod. He wants to have both guns fire at the same
time. Is this possible? I figure the difficulty should automatically go up
by one and if he attempts rapid fire it'll go up two. (takes some skill to
fire two taped-together guass rifles and hit a target)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:50:33 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Weird Science

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
: Actually, the properties of the metal are absolutely true
: and can be confirmed by any lab anywhere. But..can
: anyone tell me *why* this story is an April Fools
: joke?

Inverse square law is as real to me as any April Fools joke.  I don't
use it even once per year :-)  I wonder if it works with animal
magnetism, too?

Here's another one: why do they call April 1st "Atheists' Day" ?


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:23:48 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Type TI / TJ scan needed

Jesse,

No official deck plans were ever made for this ship. I've seen G.C.'s
roughs however, and IMHO they SHOULD be the offical ones. If GypsyComet
has cleaned them up and finished them please, please publish them
somewhere!

Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> >From what Nicholas Wright told me in personal e-mail, it looks like I was
> confusing the ship (the March Harrier) in the back of the Traveller
> Adventure with a TI or TJ.  I can't check it myself since I can't find my
> copy of the book.  Bummer (especially since the book belongs to someone
> else!!).  The good news is that GypsyComet sent me a real clean set of TJ
> plans that he had created.
> 
> Jesse
> 


- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:41:28 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Not, true.  The air craft fight from the atmosphere.  No 'boost' phase.

Sorry, my mistake. I meant the time taken to climb from base to an altitude
suitable to engage the enemy ships. I realise with something like an F15 or
a BAe / EE Lightning this is a minimal period, but you are vulnerable as
you climb *if you can be seen*. (I realise this is a key point in a
different part of this discussion).

>Second any planet that consedes space superiorty will likely loose so 24
>deep meson sites on the planet and 24 more on the moon with a massively
>redundant remote sensor system.  No more space ships in orbit.  The areo

Out of curiousity, why 24?

>fighters are dispersed to hidden bases with only one or two plane or posted
>combat ready in wilderness areas using VTOL to take on the space fighters
>when the attack to try to clear the way for the space ships to get in close.

Is VTOL compatible with that kind of thrust? Anyway, if you use CG it
doesn't matter.

>>The atmospheric fighters don't get to play, unless the carrier lets them.
>>Even with an ASAT weapon like the F15 Clancy describes in Red Storm Rising,
>>they are vulnerable as they have to get high enough to engage.
>The fighters also have energy weapon that can reach space if they are of
>equal tech level.

I think this is where the problem will come in. Unless you use batteries,
you'll need a power plant capable of charging the 'laser'. I suspect this
is what will push the cost of mass of the airframe up. It's what would make
non-CG ships more viable. You could end up with the equivalent of an A340
to carry the power. Admittedly, the abomination known as Fusion Plus  makes
this easier.

>>Operating down the potential well is a big problem.
>Yep, but you can mount MUCH BIGGER GUNS of a planet! (Grin)

But your life support is much more fragile, in some ways (grin).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:50:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>How about adding the expanding field from the jump coil can be
>disorienting and may
>cause "jump sickness" to those that are sensitive.

Sounds good to me....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:21:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>That flucks the reality test, big time!  A minimum of battle ships armor!?!
>So the hull of all space ships is made of 10+ inches of carbon steel!?!?!

Nope. It is 7 (superdense) or 14 (bonded superdense) times thinner ie 33 cm
is either 4.7cm or 2.35cm of material in Traveller. It is an equivalence...

It may need to be this think to give a degree of protection against
radiation from solar flares.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:34:06 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>You missed the part about the grid.  The Natural shape of a jump field is a
>spheroid around the coil.  Larger coil = bigger spheroid.  This becomes cost
>ineffective for ships that are really long because you'd need a coil large
>enough
>to encompass the longest part of the ship.  To cut down on expensive coil
>size,
>you introduce jump grids which squish the spheroid shape into a tighter
>skin at an
>arbitrary distance from the hull (1-2 meters).  Thus the unification of
>coils and
>grids.  You always need the coil, but grids make best use of the field.

It also ties in with the possibility of hull damage causing a misjump, as
your jump field can fluctuate or not be maintained (even impinge the ship)
if the grid is damaged.

BTW Jump governors are canon (sort of) - they are described in HG1.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:15:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>Low Level nanotech is discussed in the GT book.
>I must have missed the reference.  I read it cover to cover but I do not
>recall a nanotech refference.

Sidebars pg 14 and 15. It rules out full blown nanotech, but suggests that
low level nano is present implicitly.

>Thanks for the clarification.  I was getting very confused.  I'm a CT/GT
>only player.  I miss the other traveller version do to Real Life.

I have CT/MT/TNE and T4.

I use the CT adventures/background and HG, MT adventures/background and T4
rules (excluding starships). TNE I mine for ideas.

I also have GT (just got Far Trader which Leisure Games got in the UK on
30/3 and delivered to me 31/3) material which is looking really good. I
suppose that makes me sad...


>Real world
>comparisions also help me get a feel for the dimentions/scale of the
>situation.

I agree. Realising just how small the RL ship you mention was in Traveller
terms was scary.

>>We do not yet know what the capacity of the human mind
>>is. Holodynamic configuarble controls (canon since  MT) would go a long way
>>to help organise data management.
>Perhaps, but there are limits to human perceptions.  The airforce has been
>working to put combat data into the best format for it's pilots.

Fair point, and the format will be critical. If you think about it, the
formating of data is changing - look at hypertext for example, something
which ten years ago would be really wild and novel.

>>There is no reason why a canon Traveller ship could not be controlled by an
>>expert system (synaptic processing computer) which the operator just told
>>it to engage a specific ship. Additionally, there is no reason why such a
>>system could not preprocess the data sent to the command processor (human)
>>for decision.
>>
>Very true and that may well be the future of technological combat but that
>is not how it is portrayed in CT canon AFAIK.

It isn't really discussed at all in CT - MT started the discussion on how
the technology worked IIRC. CT just left the reader to assume the ship was
operated like an aircraft.

>>But you can design all of the above using Striker, which has notes on how
>>to interface with HG.
>I do not have striker to reference either.

Sorry - the point I was trying to make was that CT evolved to include a
design system that was more inclusive.

>>>Raidial IC fix speed and adjustable prop:
IC p63 (various TLs)

>>>Turbo prop:

Varying props detailed on P69

>>>Ram jet:
p70

>>>ducted fan jet:
>>>Non jet Ducted fan.
p70 - if I translate the two terminologies right

>>>What about the effects of the folowing features:
>>>
>>>Super chargers:
Too detailed.
>>>Variable pitch turbines:
Too detailed.

>>>Stub wings:
P33

>>>Hard points:
>>>Pylons:
Both p152, p33.

>>>RAM:
??

>>>Thermal masking:
p53 Stealth.

>I'm sorry.  I do not have my books here.  I read but do not use FF&S1.  I
>did not see any reference to any of the above systems.  Perhaps they are
>portrayed under other game mechanics.  My point was that FF&S did not have
>the depth to simulate the systems of an advanced air fighter.

It is probably as close as we'll get (or want to get ;-) ). References for
some of the features are above.


>>Unless the general technology and performance of the non-dedicated system
>>mean that the previous technology is obsolete.
>All of these premises assumes the same tech level.

OK

>>Assuming equal technology levels. And the ability of the dedicated system
>>to operate within its design parameters. If these are exceeded, or pushed
>>to the limit, the general technology may have the edge.
>The same can be said for the general technology and is more likely as it was
>not designed for what it is being asked to do.

But if the aerospace capable fighter can draw the air fighter to the upper
reaches of the atmosphere, (for example), the air fighter is ppush its
parameters. If an aerospace fighter enters the atmosphere, it is still
within its parameters, even if it has limitations that an air fighter
doesn't.

>>There isn't one if you say equal cost and base the cost on the airfighter.
>>The only fair comparison is to see what the outcome of a battle between an
>>aerospace fighter (which we have agreed will be more expensive) and an
>>equal cost's worth of air fighter. This may mean a 3:1 engagement or worse,
>>but it would assess the performance.

>Agreed, that is likely.  I would also say that to properly test the
>comparison that it would be necessary to test them under likely senerios.
>Like a convoy attack, or infrastructure reduction attack.  It might also be
>necessary to properly test the likely hood that such systems would be
>fesible, for both sides, to give both sides a budget and fight out the
>invassion.  It is generally considered that it take more resources to attack
>that to defend but would that still hold true in a futuristic planitary
>assault?  Gravity can be a great asset.

I think it would be especially advantageous to the attacker. I agree with
the need to model a number of scenarios.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:17:52 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Against the space fleet you introduced to bombard the fighter bases, yes.
>Frankly weapons systems rarely fight it out one on one.  They are part of a
>combined force with a gaol and resources placed in oposition against another
>force with differing goals and resources.  To properly test the fesibility
>of the rampart or my hypothetical fighter you would need to test them under
>the conditions they were designed you be under, planetary assault.

I introduced the orbital bombardment bit - there is nothing to stop the
carrier having a support capacity, be it meson bays/mounts or a missile bay
and deadfall ordnance.

So in this case it wasn't Walt....
Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:36:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

 "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> writes:

>>Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with humans.

>I like it all except for the above bit. There is no reason to believe that
>visual phenomena can cause psychological problems in otherwise normal
>humans (unless that visual phenomena contains actual symbolic content, like
>seeing your loved ones being killed).
>
>However, if you are of the mind to believe that visual phenomena *can*
>cause psychological problems, then why can't TTL-15 holographic technology
>replicate it for use as a psyops weapon?

Except maybe your brain can't handle looking at the field? Of cause, it
could just be the physical proximity to J-Space that causes problems....

Can't remember if the psychological problems are canon..

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:46:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>>Thta's easy. We don't have viable space systems at TL8, not for a space
>>capable fighter. Not even for something like the Deltas in Walter Jon
>>Williams 'Hardwired'. So you ask him to design a space capable fighter with
>
>Good book by the way.


I agree - one of the less Cyberpunk, Cyberpunk books. i actually bought the
game supplement for CP2020 for this one (hi Michel!).

>>True but at leat it would cancel out the effect of a design system biased
>>for space craft and lacking most aircraft systems stats.

HG yes. Striker/HG fused together don't really give a problem, neither does
FFS1/2. FFS1/2 is probably the best option.

>I do not have SOM.  I'm trying to fing a copy as it is refference on this
>list a great deal.  My game store is looking for me.

SOpM is really useful, especially when you have players with enquiring
minds. I use it like FFS - it gives me an understanding of the technology
used in the game.

>EXACTLY!  'Money' is a resource or maybe it is better to say it represents
>resources.

I agree.

>It depends on the parameters you decide for the test.  Weight, volume,
>credits, number of crew, ect.  Just like TCS.  More crew less $s favor the
>fighters.  Less crew more dollars makes for a more even fight of it.  At
>least that would be by quess without first trying it.

To be honest, I would just say - your budget is X MCr at TL Y. Maybe limit
the air fighter to being non-space capable.

>Gaming has similer trade of.  If your character uses suppresive fire he uses
>up ammo he may need later.  If he does not there may not be a later.
>Resource allocation is the heart of stratagy and tactics.  What have I got
>and what can I do with it?

I agree again; my comprehension of the Traveller rules (certainly post
Striker 1) is that the difference between space and aircraft disappears
around TL12/13 (Trav Tech). This is the main difference in our perspectives
now.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #387
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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 388



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Re: Jump Projectors
X-Boat Data/Cargo
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: Fuel Skimmers
Re: Garbage 
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
GT: Ship Insurance
GT equivalents to HG weapons/armor
Helix class robot
lasers in atmosphere
Re: Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace andgarbage)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:51:04 -0500
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

At 05:06 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>You missed the part about the grid.  The Natural shape of a jump field is a
>spheroid around the coil.  Larger coil = bigger spheroid.  This becomes cost
>ineffective for ships that are really long because you'd need a coil large 
>enough
>to encompass the longest part of the ship.  To cut down on expensive coil
size,
>you introduce jump grids which squish the spheroid shape into a tighter skin 
>at an
>arbitrary distance from the hull (1-2 meters).  Thus the unification of 
>coils and
>grids.  You always need the coil, but grids make best use of the field.

Why not just build spherical starships?  It's the most efficient shape for
space, anyway (least surface area to armor, per unit volume, very strong
structurally, streamlined..)  and negates the need to pay for a lanthanum
grid.  Just use a coil...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:57:40 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Projectors

At 02:48 PM 4/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
<<Snip>>
><Adventure Idea>
>
>The PCs arrive in system to perform a routine survey.  Sensor Ops 
<<SNIP OF ADVENTURE IDEA>>
>After a quick discussion, the medic begins the process of "thawing
>out" his new charges, and the PCs awaken to find themselves in a new
>Sector, in potentially new time, and a long, long way from home.
>
></Adventure Idea>

I just pulled this on my players.  They found an _old_ asteroid base in an
out of the way system, and discovered inside what appeared to be the mother
of all deep sites.  The accelerator tube was close to 10km in length.
Anyway, through some contacts they got the Imperium involved, got a finders
fee, and then, just to see if it still worked, the lead scientist used it
on the players.  Bwahahaha...

When they emerged from J-space a shortly thereafter, not only were they not
in Kansas anymore but they were so far out of charted space that all they
had were some old references to star names about about two sectors distant.

They have learned a new mantra, "We all have to learn to deal with
dissapointment..."

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 17:21:29 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: X-Boat Data/Cargo

What exactly would the X-Boat be carrying? Military and civilan 
"traffic" So a report from LSP on new starship research would be in with 
IN supply lists? Just curious...IMTC I had both military and civilan 
data very large amounts too...The players wanted to know how big the 
storage units where...

Just a few thought...

Mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:48:34 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

> The only handwave required for these weapons is to allow small damper boxes
> holding perhaps two or three magazines worth of Ca ammo.  The listing
> states that a damper box holds three tons of ammo, so I can't imagine a
> scaled down version capable of holding 20-60 rounds to be much of a
> hindrance to a battledressed Marine with a STR of 70+!

You shouldn't _need_ a damper box for tactical use of collapsing
rounds.  Some of the Californium isotopes have fairly long half-lives:

248 Cf -> 334 days
249 Cf -> 351 years
250 Cf -> 13.1 years
251 Cf -> ~900 years
252 Cf -> 2.64 years

I'm guessing that Cf-252 would be a good collapsing-round candidate.  It
decays by spontanious fission, though its neutron cross-section is quite
small.

A shell with a half-life of a few years is not going to decay
appreciably on a one or two day patrol.  It will get hot and possibly
melt, but a a box full of dry-ice should cure that.  A thin layer of
lead or depleted uranium on the box would make it vaguely safe to
handle.

Doug
- -- Speaking well beyond the limits of his technical competance, and
expecting to be told that he's wrong.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:47:31 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimmers

- ----------
> From: Bont <felix@felixcafe.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: GT : Fuel Skimmers
> Date: Thursday, 01 April, 1999 4:32 PM
> 
> 
> Also ... I saw somewhere in here that the USL hulls in GT were 
> really PSL.  Is this correct? 

Yes, according to David Pulver, who wrote the system.  For why this is so,
look at High Guard.  The only true unstreamlined configurations are
dispersed structures (aka open frames) and planetoids.  Neither are handled
in the basic GT ship construction system.  So USL covers all the configs
that were partially streamlined in HG.  Poor choice of terminology,
certainly, but it does simplify things.  It's so much easier to design that
50K-ton armored cruiser when you can make it USL and still allow it to
frontier refuel without fuel skimmers.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:54:02 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage 

> I'm not saying its a good thing...  I'm just saying that if want
> to invoke "canon" thats the way it is.  If you want to change it
> (and I, in fact would, to "drop" drop tanks) then you should a
> admit that it is a change.

I don't want to change anything, but to accomidate all canon.  Despite what 
G:T already's ditched, I'm still there.  Black Globes have a far worse 
implication than drop tanks and have their own problems, too.  I don't want 
to drop 'em, though, nor even those bits (few they are) that displease me.  I 
just don't let em stick in my craw.

> >Original CT (book 2? HG?) is so abstract, that it makes a look into the
> >workings of jump drives and jump theory difficult, at best.  YMMV.
> 
> The point is not that is this (or other situations deleted) "prove"
> the point.  The issues is that there are a number of exmaples
> (your antimatter one being yet another), all of which treat
> the issue at hand one way.

The antimatter one bursts far more than just mine (and it doesn't FTR).  
Nearly every one out there, actually.  What's your J-theory again? ;-)

The only credible issue you have is the economics changing the setting and 
that simply doesn't apply to the 1100s.  1130, possibly if there wasn't a 14 
year long civil war that breaks out.  Fortunately, the Rebellion, Hard Times 
and Collapse keep it from happening, though the Regency might show it.  ;-)

> >Their time of introduction and the uncertainty about them alleviates this.
> >You may well be right, but they dont' *have to* have the catastrophic 
effect
> >on economics unless u want them to.  Perhaps they *should* have that 
effect,
> >anyways.
> 
> Well, I don't agree.  Aside from the contrived feel you get
> if you carefully arrange them to be dangerous (or whatever)
> at exactly a certain level, and never have this change as they
> get become more common (if they were sort of working , a lot of
> people would be very interested in working ou the bugs), they
> still should become derigure for miltary vessels, fast couriers,
> etc.  To the point that much of the plot should involve the
> shifts in power balance and responses vis a vis the Zhodani
> (and others).

Even if you're right (and you're not IMO), how is that bad?  Things should 
grow and develop and change like that.  That's what technology does.  This 
should well be going on in the background behind the adventures and 
historical events.  The economics have never been fleshed out enough for this 
to be considered anyways.  The only thing hinting this isn't exactly the case 
is the profusion of designs lacking drop tanks and why?  Because they're from 
before the introduction (or wide acceptance of them).  We've hardly had a 
definitive look at every ship in the 3I, at any date.

> If you say, "Oh, they just happen to be to dangerous for
> anyone but PC and there is nothing that even the hordes of
> IMperial scientists can do about it" my answer is both
> "yuk" and that it really doesn't fully solve the problem
> they present.

It's good that's not what I say, then.  :-)  If there are some notable 
accidents with them, there will be that much more a delay in widespread 
confidence (and thus use) of them.  Insurance companies refusing to insure 
drop tanked ships, etc.  The inertia of the Imperial Bureacracy licencing and 
authorizing such designs, as well as the Vilani roots (and bureaucracies) of 
the many megacorp boards and executives.  Ignoring the interests that have 
whatever stake in preventing their widespread use.

> >Drop tanks have always been an asterisk in Traveller ship design.
> 
> Because they have never been explored.  They were introduced and
> their implicatons were totally (and unrealistically, ignored).

Their implications are not what you make them out to be, though the economic 
ones *could* be.

> >  Their
> >application in that substandard ship is hardly the catastrophic thing you
> >proclaim it as.
> 
> I don't agree.  If they exist as presented, shipping throughout
> the Imperium should be systematically switching to them.  That
> this doesn't happen, for no apparent reason, is odd and makes
> the background less believable.

Obviously you don't agree.  It's not going to be "hey, lets' all switch to 
drop tank ships, first have r&d design us some ships.  nevermind the 27 point 
stock drop upon our announcement.  Then let's convert our entire fleet over, 
despite the fact they may be dangerous and lose us more money than we gain."  
That's ludicrous.  You have to be setting up a straw man.  

The sabotage you refer to was supposedly by commercial interests w/ some 
stake in preventing the proliferation of drop tanks, wasn't it?  Would any of 
your characters happen to be involved?  You're secretly supporting that 
faction, aren't u?  lol.  Just what is your stake in this?  ;-)  Anyways, 
even lacking the Rebellion and Collapse, the basic setting of G:T (1120) 
should be safe, giving it a few decades for the changeover by the large bulk 
haulers (almost exclusively megacorp).

> >It seems to me like a strawman, though it's possible I'm
> >reading more into it than you intend.  Do you have any PCs running around 
in
> >Gazelles?  How many times are Gazelles encountered?
> 
> The problem
> is that they should be the revolutionary change of the decade in
> the Imperium.  You should see the shipping changing from a "you

I'll give you decades, but not 1.  10 years maybe if there wasn't opposition, 
but there appears to be significant opposition to the implementation and 
usage of drop-tanks to the Imperial periphery that could well delay it to 
even beyond 50 (by publically discrediting drop tanks to the bureaucracy, 
public, or nobility, regardless of the actual performance).

> go and your jump where you want" to a "almost everyone jumps at
> the jump station" (like in B5).  The changes should
> be rippling through the Imperium, making some companies rich,
> driving others out of business, changing the balance of power
> (much as jump -3 is suppose to have done for the Solomani),
> causes shipping prices to change radically (rendering the
> economic rules in CT, MT and Far Trader obsolete), whether

Well the CT and MT (and TNE uses MT verbatim) economics are laughably silly.  
I haven't seen Far Trader yet, but a "Drop Tank addendum" or "Far Trader vol 
2" shouldn't require herculean efforts.  The sky isn't going to fall in if 
G:T adopts drop tanks, David.

> It's like some discovered a way to do jump-12 and nobody cared...

Hardly.  

> >  Their operation is
> >something intended as innovative, but hardly with a clear advantage to it's
> >usage, especially if there seems to be some danger to the ship their used 
on
> >(as the TNS entry indicates).
> 
> Well, my take was that is was sabatage.  There had been

Your take.  You're not a megacorp board member or stock holder who stands to 
lose a whole lot (MCr, his job, possibly his entire life).  You're not 
Vilani, either, you Terran you.  That's how it was presented to us, but not 
necessarily how it actually had to be.  A suspicious megacorp exec w/ one 
hand on his neck could see it differently, but much less a bean counter at 
the bottom.

> the explosions at the shipyard and their hadn't been troubles
> in the interior.  Even if you don't agree, the article doesn't
> invoke a fundamental limitation, but instead simple quality
> control neglegence on the part of General shipyards.  The
> fact that this problem hadn't come up in the previous 12 years
> indicates that it isn't a fundamental problem.  Not are there
> any rules (from memory) that say they are dangerous.

Well in reality, because that was in the first batch of TNS entries in JTAS 
2.  lol.

> In fact, the TNS entries state that they _are_ being used for
> commerical purposes in the core ("for the last dozen years") and
> the author himself felt they should have a radical change
> in shipping ("the dawn of a new era of commerce").

Reread the TNS entry.  That was from the press release by Tukera and General. 
 It's propaganda.  I'm sure they want to make themselves look revolutionary 
and ushering in the "dawn of a new era of commerce."  It makes good 
advertising copy.  I know you're not that gullible.  Are you?

> >C'mon.  That's just silly.  Do your PCs run a shipyard?  Do they get custom
> >designs commissioned?  By a starport even capable of doing drop tanks?
> 
> Gee, maybe they have a far trader and have to worry about competing
> with them?  It invalidates the assumptions made, for example, in

That is a strawman, pure and simple.  Not in the lifespan of your campaign 
(presuming you don't run generational decade long campaigns, which I suppose 
is possible).  Who do your far traders compete against anyways?  They can't 
handle the megacorps, as is, be it due to bulk freighters, drop tanks, or 
drop-tanked bulk freighters.  :-)

> the excelent book on economics, Fat Trader.  Or if you are running
> an military ops campaign, the presence of drop tanks should make
> a big difference.

Only if the IN funds the ship designs.  As Real Life shows, it's far too 
often actual effectiveness takes a back seat to political and economic 
considerations.

> Even if it didn't affect them directly, it changes
> the background a lot (do pirates have to attack stations, some
> have argued this would indeed be the death of piracy).  It will
> change the balance of power with the Zhondani.  Maybe
> you don't think the background matters if doesn't change
> how the PC jump to the next system.  I do.

More strawmen? You're not trying hard enough.  Pirates aren't an invading 
force who are going to use planet busters.  Hmm... which side of the Piracy 
Debate are you on, again?  First reference that discussion.  ;-)  They want 
to get Cr and raw materials and finished goods, etc don't they?  It's easy to 
defend a fixed installation against pirates.  U know where to put your SDB's 
and patrol cruisers, for one.  And since when is the Imperium so concerned 
about the balance of power w/ the Zhos?  And it won't change how the PC's 
jump to the next system.  Calculate hte costs of buying new drop tanks after 
every jump.  One bad run (for whatever reason: confiscated smuggled goods, 
buyer cancels, etc) and any far trader might not be able to buy new drop 
tanks, which could really lead to a bad end to his business ventures.  The 
megacorps don't have that problem, but the independants and small timers do.

> >Sure it is, at least compared to the Core.  The players will never see the
> >result, as on the Imperiums scale and rate of movement and "age of sail" 
feel,
> >it could be hundreds of years before they make their way into common usage.
> 
> Hog wash.  The point was that they were coming into common usage
> in the Spinward Marches _now_.  Also, the idea that it would
> take 100 years for people in the Spinward Marches (who can get
> blueprints in a year) is just absurd.

lol.  A hundred years is more than possible considering the Rebellion and 
Collapse, if even then.  Actually, considering them, it's gonna be 200.  :-)  
It's as quick as you, the Ref, want it to be (in your case push it back to 
like 50 years).  For the official setting, it's not going to be in 10 years.  
Nor in 20.  How quick can the funding be gathered?  How many spare drop 
tanks?  A megacorp might handle it in 10.  If they have the will to.  If the 
CEO and board members aren't convinced of the profitability (and a faulty 
design can lose them a MCr ship, it's crew, compensation to families of the 
crew, lawsuits by the families and the buying concerns, etc etc, as well the 
ordinary revenue that was going to be gathered by the ship).  Being more than 
partially Vilani, what would you do?  honestly.

> >It's only a problem if u want it to be (or have some interest in getting 
rid
> >of them).
> 
> I guess we see it differently, most of these arguements seem
> weak and unbelievalbe to me.  To me they are the sort of
> shallow rationalizations that cause me to avoid AD&D.,

LOL.  The famous last ditch defense.  "It's why I avoid AD&D! Really."  You 
should critically analyze your own arguments before you make them.  I'm 
gunning them down w/o trying very hard.

> >  It's ancients
> >technology and Clarke's Law applies.  Black globes have big problems on 
their
> >own, and transfering the energy to jump dooms most jump theories.  Economic
> >changes.  You could have a beef here.
> 
> Black globes are indeed ancient techology that the Imperium doesn't
> understand (and is only able to copy, they don't even know if
> they are using them for the intended purpose).  This isn't true
> of drop tanks.

I was talking about jump projectors, not black globes.  Why did you bring up 
jump projectors anyways? There's very little canon on them (just the MT 
design tables to my knowledge) anyways.  You're reaching.

> >  It's ignoring it in a really sad way
> >IMO, as there's plenty of ways to rationalize how it will never have an 
effect
> >in your campaigns time period.
> 
> They are a technology that one would expect not have as big effect.
> They are something that takes a bigger ships to use effectively and
> they are hard to make, unlike drop tanks which are suppose to
> have been in use for years.  Also, changing the difficulties
> of FTL travel (which is one of the fundamental principals that
> Traveller was founded on) is a lot more fundamental than adding
> a new military toy.

You lost me there.  What are you talking about?  Black Globes?  "Changing the 
difficulties of FTL travel" *IS* Traveller.  It was there from the very 
beginning (If JTAS 2 doesn't qualify, what does?) and seems pretty 
fundamental.

> >Look at the way you deal with the problem.  You can't believe they have an
> >instant effect.  Given the date of their introduction (presuming early 
1100s),
> >it'll be decades, if not centuries before they make a widespread 
appearance.
> 
> Centuries is absurd.  Sure it will take decades.  Decades in
> which they are driving force for change (as I mention above),
> unless you want to divert the timeline to deal with those
> decades of change you have issues....

Progress at last.  At least you admit it will take decades.  That's plural.  
How many?  2?  3? 5? (3 up and you're safe in your G:T campaign).  Noone 
forces you to deal with any issues.  Does anyone here think life will be like 
it's portrayed in Traveller?  It's 20th century people in space.

> >I'm not sure on the scale of Far Trader, as I don't have it, but don't see 
how
> >it would affect free traders, in particular, much less anything less than a
> >megacrop, in general,  before the centuries hash mark.  It's not a 
concern.  I
> >wonder why you're against them so, as none of the reasons you've given will
> >have any effect on campaigning unless u want it to.
> 
> Because Free Trader seeks to allow the PC to conduct their
> trading in way that fits in realistically with how the universe
> around them is suppose to work.  They didn't just come up with a few
> arbitrary rules and say that, if it isn't unbalanced as a
> game mechanic, it is "fine".  Instead it takes the way the
> Imperium is portrayed and works out the economics from the ground
> up.  Allowing on to do thing like look at a world and figure
> out how busy the port will be when the PC's get there.  This
> give us a detailed, believable, and interesting system that
> allows many events and situations for the PC to flow naturally
> and believably from the stitation.

That's fine, David.  I have no problem w/ any of that.  You still didn't 
answer my point though.  Noone is invoking arbitrary economic rules.  Another 
strawman.  A new technology or implementation of technology *should* change 
the economics of the Imperium.  I'm not familiar w/ Far Trader, as I don't 
yet have it (though I now firmly intend to get it), so i am unaware of the 
impact drop tanks would have.  Assuming it completely thrashes it,  Far 
Trader is of use for the pre-drop tank proliferated Imperium.  Would the 
authors be willing to make a companion volume dealing w/ the "after?"  There 
are those who don't like randomly discarding the bits of canon that don't 
offend them (for whatever reason).  I'd like to hear from the authors that 
it's completely thrashed by drop tanks, first, though, until I get it and can 
read it myself.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:54:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Doug Sinclair writes:
> 
> I'm guessing that Cf-252 would be a good collapsing-round candidate.  It
> decays by spontanious fission, though its neutron cross-section is quite
> small.

Hm..no, I think the most important aspect is the neutron capture cross-section,
whether those captures produce fissions or simply a higher number element, and
how many neutrons are produced per fission.  You can always add a neutron
source.  I think I went through the list a while back and decided that there
were no californium isotopes which were suitable for nuclear weapons (I think
there were some americium isotopes which were), but this was _many_ years ago,
so take it with a grain or two of salt.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:09:15 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
>  "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> writes:
> 
> >>Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with humans.
> 
> >I like it all except for the above bit. There is no reason to believe that
> >visual phenomena can cause psychological problems in otherwise normal
> >humans (unless that visual phenomena contains actual symbolic content, like
> >seeing your loved ones being killed).
> >
> >However, if you are of the mind to believe that visual phenomena *can*
> >cause psychological problems, then why can't TTL-15 holographic technology
> >replicate it for use as a psyops weapon?
> 
> Except maybe your brain can't handle looking at the field? Of cause, it
> could just be the physical proximity to J-Space that causes problems....
> 
I would expect that any problems caused by viewing the jump field would
be based on the premise that the jump field exposes the senses to
non-Euclidean geometries.  Or, from the C'thulhu for President '92
campaign song (sung to the tune of "Chattanooga Choo-Choo"):

You'll see an ancient sunken city where the angles are wrong
You'll see the fourth dimension if you stay very long....

I can understand how that could be...disorienting (even without the
Lovecraftian horrors dwelling therein).


> Can't remember if the psychological problems are canon..

I don't know.  However, I did add a quirk to my T4 main character: 
viewing jumpspace nauseates him, due to vertigo.  As Colonel Erik von
Oldenburg is an Imperial Baron, who commands an Imperial Army Jump Troop
regiment, his tendency to seek a bit of privacy during the transition to
jump actually seems a bit odd to his peers.
> 
> Dom
> 
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
> You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 21:22:05 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

Juliean Galak wrote:

> At 05:06 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >You missed the part about the grid.  The Natural shape of a jump field is a
> >spheroid around the coil.  Larger coil = bigger spheroid.  This becomes cost
> >ineffective for ships that are really long because you'd need a coil large
> >enough
> >to encompass the longest part of the ship.  To cut down on expensive coil
> size,
> >you introduce jump grids which squish the spheroid shape into a tighter skin
> >at an
> >arbitrary distance from the hull (1-2 meters).  Thus the unification of
> >coils and
> >grids.  You always need the coil, but grids make best use of the field.
>
> Why not just build spherical starships?  It's the most efficient shape for
> space, anyway (least surface area to armor, per unit volume, very strong
> structurally, streamlined..)  and negates the need to pay for a lanthanum
> grid.  Just use a coil...

Well, because they're spherical... Spherical ships have their own problems.  For
starters, spinal weapons prefer needle shapes.  Additionally, the expensive part
is the coil which generates a specific volume.  The grid is relatively cheap
compared to the coil.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:40:07 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards

For those of you who wonder why Imperial economic interests might be
reluctant to adopt drop tanks, I refer you to a similar situation,
involving the De Havilland Comet, the first operational jet-propelled
airliner.  The problems encountered by the Comet can be seen at:

http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/comet.htm

I would draw your attention to the passage in which, in response to
several unexplained Comet crashes, all Comets were grounded, and orders
were cancelled.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:58:36 -0700
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> (by way of Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>)
Subject: GT: Ship Insurance

Chris- 
	I saw your TML post about insurance.  I'm not posting there 
because for some reason I can't get my jmaclean account subscribed to the 
TML.
	Anyway, the short answer with insurance rates is that the cost of 
insurace equals the expected value of the loss plus a small risk premium 
which is the banks compensation for accepting the risk.  Given the 
Imperium's low interest rates this won't be huge.  The big unknown is how 
likely ships are to be damaged or lost in GT.  I'll leave this up to you.
Whatever you decide on, I suggest that you use the interest rate figures 
for different risk levels in the stocks section as the risk premium.  
Then add on whatever the probability of loss per annum is and this gives 
the total percentage of ship price that must be paid per year in 
premiums.  Premiums will go down over time as the value of the ship declines.

	You mention the bank's insurance.  Readers should be reminded 
that the fact that the bank has made provisions for some portion of the 
ships it holds mortgages on being lost in no way affects the characters' 
responsibility for paying the mortgage if their ship is in fact lost.  Even 
if the ship is an expanding cloud of plasma, they still owe the money.  
Of course, since the Imperium likely has bankruptcy laws they will get 
some relief....

- -John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:11:43 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: GT equivalents to HG weapons/armor

Howdy TMLers::

I've been semi-lurking here for a while.  Like many people, I was an early
Traveller player (my second RPG) and I played up to MT, but I got away from
it for a while in favor of GURPS.  It took GT to bring me back to the fold.

Anyway, I've started playing with large ships using the GT ship design
system (with a few emendations from G:Ve.)  I just recently acquired CT
Book 9 and I'm trying to convert the Ghalahk-class armored cruiser to GT. 
(I think it's the one really good looking ship in Fighting ships, and it
shows up in GT art as well.)  

In the course of this effort, two questions have come up.

1) Has anyone has figured out reasonable GT equivalents to the standardized
High Guard spinal mounts?  What would be a fair rating for the spinal
mounts presented in GT?

2) Are there any straightforward ways to convert the armor ratings from HG
into GT damage resistance?  Likewise meson screens and nuke dampers.

Thanks in advance for any help.  

PS: I'll try to post a draft of the cruiser this weekend; I just need to
pick up Star Mercs for the fusion guns.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 22:21:54 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Helix class robot

For all of the Freefall fans on the list, here is a classic Book 8
design:

Helix 93504-52-MM225-P853 Cr 315545 739 Kg
Fuel = 200 liters, Cargo = 120 liters, Duration = 23.8 days, Tl = 12
100/250 (cloth)
2 med arms
2 visual sensors (+2 Active IR)
2 audio sensors
regional radio
mechanical tool kit
electronic tool kit
electronic circuit protection
cargo handling-2
valet-2
electronics-1
mechanical-1

Comming soon, MT/Hard Times design for Pop Rivet's truck, with JATO...

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:38:50 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: lasers in atmosphere

>I have a problem with high penetration lasers in an atmosphere; above a
>certain power level they'd turn the air into plasma which would be
>extremely hard to shine through. GGG has info on this and to me it seems to
>rule out lasers as tankbusters. (I'm well aware that high pen lasers are
>serious Canon stuff and I wouldn't want to lose them but can somebody come
>up with a good handwave why they should work?).
There's a lot of parameter space to play around with with pulse duration - 
a 100 Mj laser with a 1 second pulse, for example, is probably OK. The
1 second pulse would hurt armour penetration, but not damage, I think.

On the other hand - it's not at all bad if lasers lose some penetration
in atmospheres; it's another reason for people to put plasma/fusion weapons
on tanks instead of big honking lasers. No great loss to Canon. Starship lasers
will still be threatening, but not dominate the battlefield or dominate
ortillery (also good.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:14:04 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace andgarbage)

SD Mooney wrote:

>>>Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with
humans.
>>
>>I like it all except for the above bit. There is no reason to believe that
>>visual phenomena can cause psychological problems in otherwise normal
>>humans (unless that visual phenomena contains actual symbolic content,
like
>>seeing your loved ones being killed).
>
>Except maybe your brain can't handle looking at the field? Of cause, it
>could just be the physical proximity to J-Space that causes problems....
>
>Can't remember if the psychological problems are canon.


I don't know if they are either. I know jump *sickness* is, but that has to
do with actual physical contact with jumpspace.


and BlackICE later wrote:

>I would expect that any problems caused by viewing the jump field would
>be based on the premise that the jump field exposes the senses to
>non-Euclidean geometries.


Well, the problem with this is that the senses will only by exposed to
reflected or emitted visible light from the 3-dimensional manifestations of
these weird geometries. There is no reason to believe that non-Euclidean
geometry would cause an otherwise normal person difficulties to a degree
that could be classified as a psychological disorder. In fact, there is no
reason to believe that a person would be able to see into the 4th dimension,
simply because our eyes are not built to see into it any more than they are
capable of seeing gamma rays, x-rays, or radio waves. Just because we can
conceive of something doesn't mean we can actually sense it.

Of course, all this depends on how you define psychological problems when
saying that looking at jumpspace causes them. :-)

Vertigo I can believe. But when I read "Staring at the jump interface can
cause psychological problems with humans. ..." I think of schizophrenia,
personality disorders, or mood disorders, and so on and I just don't see how
it could happen. To me it's like saying "Staring at the jump interface can
give you the a nasty flu." There simply isn't a mechanism there to cause it.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #388
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, April 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 389



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Garbage
Re: Ignoble Etiquette
G:T -- TAS Membership
Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage
Languages in Traveller
Re: Merchant
Re: max accel
Re: Famile Spofulam
Re: Famile Spofulam
Re: Famile Spofulam
Web based hex game
autofire/rapid fire
Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Rules of War
Re: Rules of War
Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite
Re : Jump Drives, Jump Projectors, Jump Psychosis
Re: Drop Tanks and canon (was Re: Garbage)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:35:25 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Garbage

David P. Summers writes:

>I don't agree.  If they exist as presented, shipping throughout
>the Imperium should be systematically switching to them.  That
>this doesn't happen, for no apparent reason, is odd and makes
>the background less believable.

David, what evidence do you have that this isn't happening? That it
hasn't been mentioned anywhere? How many adventures can you think of
where it is odd that drop tank equipped ships isn't mentioned? Most
adventures only mention that which is immidiately relevant. Far Trader
deals with free traders, which means _marginal_ trading. 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:59:08 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ignoble Etiquette

David Jaques-Watson writes:

>I have seen Hans' noble system before. I thought it was a nice idea but a
>bit too unwieldy. For example, I have a question: how do you reach these
>esoteric levels? Do you still use the normal chargen system or something
>else? Are Imperial appointments, therefore, something that you grant as a
>GM ("too important to leave to chance") or can they occur "naturally"?

My take on it is that if I was running a Napoleonic Era campaign, I wouldn't
leave it to random chance whether Napoleon, or even just Marshall Ney, showed
up as a ship's carpenter. Mind you, I'm not saying that someone like Marshall
Ney couldn't appear as a common sodbuster, but it wouldn't be by random die
roll. And if it was by random die roll, it wouldn't happen with 3% of my NPCs.
Yet Imperial barons should (IMO) be about as common as emperors are on
Earth today. Consider: The most powerful head of state on Earth has at most
controlled a continent-sized country. We have never had a true world ruler.
Yet an Imperial Marquis is supposed to be about as common as world rulers.

Usually I do only introduce even planetary nobles when the plot calls for
it, but to introduce a bit of random chance, whenever I roll a 12 for social
status, I roll again with a 50/50 chance of turning that into a 13; if that
happens I roll again with the same chance of turning that into a 14; I keep
that up until I fail to get the increase or until I decide that enough is
enough.
 
>I think that the Milieu 0 explanation - which has appeared in other earlier
>sources - is perhaps better: when a world is assimilated^k^k^k _welcomed_
>into the Imperium, the Moot reviews the world's current rulers and grants
>Imperial titles accordingly. For example, a world ruler entitled "King
>Frederick" may also be granted the Imperial title of "Marquis [planet
>name]". The Imperial title, although a "lesser" name, has precedence over
>local titles.

That's exactly how I imagine that it would work. Only thing is, only ONE of
the many kings of that planet would become an Imperial marquis and only a
few of the other kings would rate Imperial baronies. The rest would have to
settle for Imperial knighthoods.
 
>This can have interesting implications for role-playing. For example, King
>Fred rules over all he surveys, but has to kowtow to other Imperial
>nobility that he may see as beneath him. This can certainly cause
>resentment, and Fred may be subtlely impolite or even rude, all the while
>maintaining a facade of deference to an off-world noble.

THe point is that to an Imperial noble, a planetary king is just another
petty noble. It's not what title you have, it's what power you have. The
head of state of Alell has the not very glamorous title "Captain". Yet
he would be the same social status as the king of another planet.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:07:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: G:T -- TAS Membership

Is the point cost of a TAS membership indicated anywhere?
I figure it should be about a 10 point advantage, but I can't seem to
find it anywhere. I notice that none of the example characters in Far
Trader (awesome book, by the way) are TAS members.

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:08:44 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage

>Personally, my grand unified theory (liberally culled from other people's
>suggestions) is as follows.
>
>Jump drives require power and displacement mass to operate. The
>displacement mass is typically hydrogen, but can be a mixture of low atomic
>mass gases. Hydrogen is prefered.
>
>The hydrogen is typically consumed to generate power for the jump drive,
>and also fed, through a surge tank and used to inflate a bubble of
>realspace around the starship as jump is achieved. Non-hydrogen options are
>less optimal than hydrogen bubbles, and may result in a misjump due to jump
>field fluctuations.

Ahh !
Now this is the _best_ part of your theory, as it neatly supports _both_
versions of hydrogen usage.

Jump without any hydrogen is thus possible, either by using some _other_
substance as the bubble, or by not having one at all and relying on capability
of your  grid-based field maintennce.

>The power for the jump drive energises the jump coil (typically lanthanum
>although barium and other rare elements have been used), which generates a
>jump field. This field is spherical. Some ships have a secondary lanthanum
>(or other) grid which modulates and shapes the jump field. Otherwise, a
>more powerful jump coil may be required to maintain some ships with
>geometries such as needles in a jump field as the sphere has to be larger.
>A modulated field conforms to the ships geometry.

Great.

>By default, a jump drive can only achieve the maximum jump number it is
>designed for. However, installing a jump governer in the drive allows a
>ship to jump to lower levels (eg a j2 ship can do j1). The Jump coil
>remains energised throughout the jump - the surface grid is typically only
>energised for entry/breakout to manage the transition between jspace and
>nspace.

Even better.

And of course the higher TL the governor the more control, allowing extremely
accurate intra-system micro-jumps if you have a high TL governor.

I'd also say that the 100D limit can be ignored. But, it takes far more energy
than normal to generate the field inside that limit, and you're relying on
your equipment and nav skill to prevent a misjump.

Conversely, one could say that the further out from the gravity well you go
the less energy is required, but that just beyoned the 100D limit is a point
at which the gains from jump energy requirements are usually outweighed by the
losses from maneuver energy, so no-one usually bothers.

Coming out of  jump closer in would require the expenditure of even more
energy  to counteract the effect of the gravity well pushing you out
(entering, you get pushed away from the planet as well as "out" of J-space,
meaning that the only way to emerge closer to a planet would be to pump energy
into the griid just prior to enmergence, which as sensors that work from
j-space to real-space don't exist, is an _extremely_ risky business, and
outlawed as well, thus any jump governor built to pump power into the grid on
emergence is illegal, immoral and fattening and likley to get you arrested as
an interstellar terrorist.

Reason I like this is because it means you _can_ create a planet-buster jump
torpedo that emerges really close to the planet. Of course, no civilized race
would use one.

Then again, the Xenophobes (remember StarForce ?) aren't what we'd call
civilized

If it were my own system I'd even be tempted to say that the 1-week travel
time is basd on jumping from 100D too. Jumping closer to a gravity well gives
you more J-Space "velocity" meaning you get there faster, whereas doing it
from further out makes it take longer, another reason why 100D is optimal.

I'd have the times and energy requirments follow the inverse-cube law if the
maths works out nice,
so you can se that close i jumps really suck the power, and some ships may not
even be able to do them without burning out their systems.

>The jump field is typically 1m off the starship hull, but may be more.
>Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with humans.
>Contact or proximity to jspace may cause physiological problems too.
>
>How about that,

I'm certainly going to use that as the official explanation IMTU, though I
don't see why contact with, or looking at J-space should cause psychological
problems as such.

I'd say contact with J-space can cause completely unpredictable effects on
_any_  physical matter.
These effects range from contact explosion, to molecular distortion, to
completely impossible effects, such as "possesion" of people or artifacts by
malevolent entities, a la "Event Horizon"



Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:15:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Languages in Traveller

Having read the characters presented in Far Trader, I notice that some
humans are native Vilani speakers while others are native Anglic speakers.
Some only speak one or the other (while the vast majority of them seem to
be multi-lingual).

So what's the 'official' language of the Imperium? Are all official
correspondence, TNS dispatches, Emporer's speeches, given in both Vilani
and Anglic forms? How about signs in the starport?

I also notice one character has Romany as a native language. Are other
old-Earth languages (French, German, etc.) alive and well in the Imperium?

What percentage of the population speaks each language?

Does the Imperium place a language requirement on new member worlds,
mandating that the planet begin teaching Vilani or Anglic in schools?

I'm thinking over how I'm going to attack this problem in my game, and I
thought I'd see how others feel.

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 01:42:38 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Merchant

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/31/99 11:45:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jcarlino@home.com writes:
>
> << crooked lawyers (oxymoron), >>
>
>         redundant, rather,  honest lawyer is oxymoron

You're names have been noted and I've made sure that your copies
of Far Trader are laced with undetectable contact poison that will
make you go to law school.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 01:52:52 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Walter Smith wrote:

> In a high-skill environment like aeronautics (not to mention air combat),
> one skilled person can be worth a hundred novices.

Lack of skilled combat pilots had immense implications in WWII after
the Battle of Britain, when the British lost many, and then in the late
war for the Luftwaffe, when they had no time to train new pilots.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 01:57:06 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam

Ian or Katts wrote:

> Well, I pronounce it as fam-i-lay spof-u-lam.
>
> Famile Spofulam is presumably one of those family-run concerns. The current
> head is the redoubtable Hengabar Spofulam, althought Ditzie is gaining
> mindshare fast.
>
> Ian Whitchurch

I've said it before.  I'll say it again.

The Famile Spofulam needs a website!

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:00:49 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
: The Famile Spofulam needs a website!


If you build it, they will come.

Downport.com will offer to enshrine, too.


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com 
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:21:16 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam

>
>Ian or Katts wrote:
>
>> Well, I pronounce it as fam-i-lay spof-u-lam.
>>

I have probably the worst pronounciation of Famile Spofulam. Of course, I
can't say Solomani correctly either. (bad habit from my first ref, he
pronounced it Suh - lahm - nigh) I have pronounced Famile Spofulam as
"Family Spoof-oh-lee-um"

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

OBTrav: When the travellers took the job to deliver the goods to some guy
names Joe Danny, they hadn't looked at the papers. They just went buy what
the guy said. It wasn't a happy scene when they realize he had meant
Zhodani!
Miscommunication can lead to all kinds of interesting situations.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 02:30:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Web based hex game

Can someone please repost the link to the web based hex game format
that was mentioned in the discussion of Striker?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 00:39:07 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: autofire/rapid fire

> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>

> One of my players wants to duct tape two guass rifles together and attach
> the triggers with a metal rod. He wants to have both guns fire at the same
> time. Is this possible? I figure the difficulty should automatically go up
> by one and if he attempts rapid fire it'll go up two. (takes some skill to
> fire two taped-together guass rifles and hit a target)

Gotta love players!  Here's how I see it:  if you tape two weapons
together, size, weight, and recoil change; the new unit is bigger and
heavier and kicks harder than a single weapon.  Gauss rifles have less,
and more easily controlled, recoil than chemically propelled projectile
weapons because of their design (magnetic tube accelerating bullets
out).  Weight is doubled.  Size is doubled, but let's look at it from an
encumbrance perspective:  It's a bulkier weapon, but still probably not
as unwieldy as an LAG or LMG.  

The new to hit task is more difficult because the user is less familiar
with the size, weight, and recoil of the weapon.  How much more
difficult?  Because the weapon is not very big to start with and doesn't
have much recoil, I would put a negative DM on the basic to hit task,
rather than raising the difficulty level.  How much -DM?  Your call. I
agree about a higher -DM for rapid fire than single shots, until the
user is very familiar with the new arrangement.  

I would also have the -DM decrease over time as the user practices with
the weapon and gets used to the characteristics mentioned above.  

Do your gauss rifles have integral laser sights? electronic sights? how
are these affected by the new arrangement?  What about rifle grenades? 
(I'd say no to rifle grenades because they are wider than the barrel of
the rifle (remember, they're shoot-through grenades), and can't be
affixed without being in the line of fire from the adjacent barrel.)  

How will the user make sure that the barrels are parallel -- or does he
want a little spread or convergence?  

I guess there are more questions than answers here; I hope you find them
helpful.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 00:45:03 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

> BTW Jump governors are canon (sort of) - they are described in HG1.

They're also implied in Book 2, Starships, at 15:  "Ships performing
jumps less than their maximum capacity consume fuel at a lower level
based on the jump number used."  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:09:13 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite

I have placed my ideas about jump space as a FAQ at
http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/traveller/jumpfaq.html

Please feel free to read and comment. I realize this isn't canon (but I
tried keeping close to HG/MT) and won't make everyone happy, but you might
see something you like to add to your own theory. I am also interested in
input to make my theory any better.

Thanks,
Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:24:34 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

Glenn,

I think we have the same idea for this weapon. I was thinking of keeping the
increased difficulty level due to the make-shift nature of the weapon (duct
tape). If the player chooses to make more permanent modifications (welding,
etc...) then I'll probably reduce the DM to -2 (-4 for rapid fire). If he
goes to the trouble of designing a double-barreled gauss rifle and gets
sufficient practice then I would consider dropping the -DM.

I agree no RAM grenades. ...and as far as the sight is converned, it
probably won't be an issue. This player is more of the mind "more bullets is
better than aiming" usually taking combat slow and conducting rapid fire
every turn. (this was happening with our old ref, before he left and I took
over.) It would have been an interesting sight to actually see this guy in
action.

I imagine if the sights were actually used, only one of the sights could be
used and the other gun only hits on a successful pinpoint location shot.
(aim specifically off center but still in an area that can be hit by both
barrels)
If he goes to the trouble of setting up a sight in between both barrels,
this might help... but he would have to keep in mind that he would be
hitting to the right and left of center.

What do you think?

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

>> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
>
>> One of my players wants to duct tape two guass rifles together and attach
>> the triggers with a metal rod. He wants to have both guns fire at the
same
>> time. Is this possible? I figure the difficulty should automatically go
up
>> by one and if he attempts rapid fire it'll go up two. (takes some skill
to
>> fire two taped-together guass rifles and hit a target)
>
>Gotta love players!  Here's how I see it:  if you tape two weapons
>together, size, weight, and recoil change; the new unit is bigger and
>heavier and kicks harder than a single weapon.  Gauss rifles have less,
>and more easily controlled, recoil than chemically propelled projectile
>weapons because of their design (magnetic tube accelerating bullets
>out).  Weight is doubled.  Size is doubled, but let's look at it from an
>encumbrance perspective:  It's a bulkier weapon, but still probably not
>as unwieldy as an LAG or LMG.
>
>The new to hit task is more difficult because the user is less familiar
>with the size, weight, and recoil of the weapon.  How much more
>difficult?  Because the weapon is not very big to start with and doesn't
>have much recoil, I would put a negative DM on the basic to hit task,
>rather than raising the difficulty level.  How much -DM?  Your call. I
>agree about a higher -DM for rapid fire than single shots, until the
>user is very familiar with the new arrangement.
>
>I would also have the -DM decrease over time as the user practices with
>the weapon and gets used to the characteristics mentioned above.
>
>Do your gauss rifles have integral laser sights? electronic sights? how
>are these affected by the new arrangement?  What about rifle grenades?
>(I'd say no to rifle grenades because they are wider than the barrel of
>the rifle (remember, they're shoot-through grenades), and can't be
>affixed without being in the line of fire from the adjacent barrel.)
>
>How will the user make sure that the barrels are parallel -- or does he
>want a little spread or convergence?
>
>I guess there are more questions than answers here; I hope you find them
>helpful.
>
>--Glenn
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:58:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
>Why not just build spherical starships?  It's the most efficient shape for
>space, anyway (least surface area to armor, per unit volume, very strong
>structurally, streamlined..)  and negates the need to pay for a lanthanum
>grid.  Just use a coil...

Because you may want more surface area for radiators. I suspect a geodesic
sphere would be more viable than a true sphere.

Showing my prejudices, I feel more comfortable with designs other than a
sphere, except when I'm designing HG warships on a tight budget...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 04:58:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Rules of War

Wasn't there a recent discussion of the Imperial Rules of War
that control conflicts between member worlds?

Can anyone point me to some published references if there are any,
please?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 05:07:57 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Rules of War

Doh!  I meant to say, any references besides MT Imperial Encyclopedia
and G:T, which are the same anyway.

steve daniels wrote:

> Wasn't there a recent discussion of the Imperial Rules of War
> that control conflicts between member worlds?
>
> Can anyone point me to some published references if there are any,
> please?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 05:45:52 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite

Shawn Campbell wrote:

> I have placed my ideas about jump space as a FAQ at
> http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/traveller/jumpfaq.html
>
> Please feel free to read and comment. I realize this isn't canon (but I
> tried keeping close to HG/MT) and won't make everyone happy, but you might
> see something you like to add to your own theory. I am also interested in
> input to make my theory any better.

I sort of skimmed it and have a general question, not necessarily related
to your pages.

What is the minimum distance of a jump?

Could I jump as little as one meter?  If say, I didn't want to be located for
a week?

This would be enormously beneficial to smugglers and other criminals providing
a
redoubt, as well as misleading authorities who may be chasing them, if
possible.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 21:33:54 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Jump Drives, Jump Projectors, Jump Psychosis

Dom Mooney's consensus explanation of how jump drives 'work' is a good
one.

Hydrogen is consumed to punch the initial 'hole' in space-time *and*
maintain a pocket of normal space that a vessel can travel through jump
space in ; literally a pocket universe!

The size and shape of the pocket universe is controlled by the jump
governor machinery, etc. of the ship, gobbling up a goodly amount of
computing capacity....

As understanding of jumpspace physics improves, it becomes apparent
that the hydrogen bubble is not required - virtual particles generated
from the 'vacuum' will suffice to protect an object in jump space.

* The jump projector is a crude pocket universe generator, requiring
enormous amounts of energy (given contemporary estimates of quantum
vacuum energy, only a few cc of space time needs to be 'destroyed').

Any object can be sent into jump space. Early in the course of
development of these devices, the pocket universes generated were very
unstable, undergoing "big crunches" within seconds... making them a most
useful weapons system.

The jump gate idea is a good one. Thanks Jason!

* Joe Dietrich had a good point about 'the gray wall of jumpspace' being
a potential weapon.

Visual stimuli can cause nausea, vomitting, hypnosis, etc.
My preferred explanation for people going mad in jump is not a physical
effect on the brain (otherwise MR scanners, etc. would be dangerous) but
an aberrant stimulant effect on the CNS.

Look out for the 'jumpspace' holovids, folks...

Keep the ideas coming, guys.
Gotta love this list....

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 04:57:54 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks and canon (was Re: Garbage)

>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:54:02 EST
>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Garbage 
>

I'm coming to the debate late, as usual, when some of the dust has settled,
the battle lines are drawn, and the metaphors aren't flying as thick as
they were. Please forgive me if these points have been made before.

>If there are some notable 
>accidents with them, there will be that much more a delay in widespread 
>confidence (and thus use) of them.  Insurance companies refusing to insure 
>drop tanked ships, etc.  The inertia of the Imperial Bureacracy licencing
and 
>authorizing such designs, as well as the Vilani roots (and bureaucracies) of 
>the many megacorp boards and executives.  Ignoring the interests that have 
>whatever stake in preventing their widespread use.
>

Has anyone suggested that drop tanks are the Traveller equivalent of
lighter-than-air ships? Let's examine the similarities:

(1) The technology is reasonably simple, and decades old.

(2) If widely implemented, they would vastly change the economic
assumptions under which trade is conducted (cf. the numerous glowing
predictions in Popular Mechanics, etc.).

(3) No one uses them (except for a few highly specialized applications)
because of some well publicized disasters early in its history -- Akron as
well as Hindenburg -- disasters which there is no rational reason to think
would be repeated with modern technology. 

Given the inherent technological conservatism of the Imperium, I don't
think it's at all unreasonable that the 2-3 TL delay (so far) in
implementing widespread commercial and military use of LTA ships would
translate directly into centuries.

Now imagine the impact of just one more well publicized disaster on a
newly-inaugurated LTA shipping line, and you have the situation facing
Tukera in 1105.

>A new technology or implementation of technology *should* change 
>the economics of the Imperium.  I'm not familiar w/ Far Trader, as I don't 
>yet have it (though I now firmly intend to get it), so i am unaware of the 
>impact drop tanks would have.  Assuming it completely thrashes it,  Far 
>Trader is of use for the pre-drop tank proliferated Imperium.  Would the 
>authors be willing to make a companion volume dealing w/ the "after?"  There 
>are those who don't like randomly discarding the bits of canon that don't 
>offend them (for whatever reason).  I'd like to hear from the authors that 
>it's completely thrashed by drop tanks, first, though, until I get it and
can 
>read it myself.
>

About half of Far Trader is already "thrashed", as far as that goes. :)

I'm not the economic expert (that's John), but I don't see where drop tanks
_by_themselves_ make all that much difference. We ran the numbers for
several different scenarios -- LASH frieghters, farports, SL vs. USL
freighters -- and they all came out very much the same. Jump masking had a
much more profound impact on commercial operations, which is why I ran it
by Marc Miller for confirmation before putting it in.

Fuel is not all that significant an expense, even when you calculate cargo
volume lost to internal tankage. Time is significant, as in the number of
jumps a given ship can make in a year. With drop tanks, you'd be simply
trading overhead and time (capturing and remounting drop tanks) for
additional range. In the cases where that would be useful, I can't see that
it invalidates any of the underlying assumptions we made about trade and
commerce in the Imperium.

Maybe John has a different view; if so, I'll be happy to listen.

Chris Thrash
Co-author, GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #389
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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 390



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Merchant
Re: G:T -- TAS Membership
Re: Languages in Traveller
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: Rules of War
Re: autofire/rapid fire
re: Languages in Traveller
Evil gun for GURPS:Traveller
Weird Science:  And The Winner Is...
Re: Hull armor (was Re: max accel)
Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite
Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite
OT: Lawyers
Re: G:T -- TAS Membership
Re: max accel
TCS Campaign problem
Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
RE: TCS Campaign problem
Re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:40:08 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Merchant

In a message dated 4/2/99 1:47:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< 
 You're names have been noted and I've made sure that your copies
 of Far Trader are laced with undetectable contact poison that will
 make you go to law school.
  >>
You've made one mistake, you've betrayed me and left me alive!

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 05:29:18 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: G:T -- TAS Membership

>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:07:06 -0800 (PST)
>From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
>Subject: G:T -- TAS Membership
>
>Is the point cost of a TAS membership indicated anywhere?
>I figure it should be about a 10 point advantage, but I can't seem to
>find it anywhere. I notice that none of the example characters in Far
>Trader (awesome book, by the way) are TAS members.
>

According to Dr. Kromm (the SJ Games GURPS guru) TAS membership is not an
advantage -- it's an investment of sorts, or a possession. If you want, you
could make TAS membership the justification for a Claim to Hospitality.

Most of the sample characters in Far Trader are merchants. In canon, they
do not normally have access to TAS membership as a mustering out benefit.
In practice, if any of them accumulated MCr 1 they'd invest it in a
business or starship.

I'd expect to see TAS members in GT: Imperial Navy, Ground Forces, or
Nobles. GT (p. 35) says Scouts as well, but I don't know whether Jon
Zeigler was tracking on that when he wrote First In.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 05:42:08 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:15:48 -0800 (PST)
>From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
>Subject: Languages in Traveller
>
>Having read the characters presented in Far Trader, I notice that some
>humans are native Vilani speakers while others are native Anglic speakers.
>Some only speak one or the other (while the vast majority of them seem to
>be multi-lingual).
>
>So what's the 'official' language of the Imperium?

Anglic (p. GT20). Remember that those are merchant characters, who have
good reason to know several languages.

> Are all official
>correspondence, TNS dispatches, Emporer's speeches, given in both Vilani
>and Anglic forms? How about signs in the starport?
>

Check out the illustrations in Far Trader, pp. 15, 56 (maybe), and 75, for
what appears to be Vilani script.

>I also notice one character has Romany as a native language. Are other
>old-Earth languages (French, German, etc.) alive and well in the Imperium?
>

The Swordworlders speak a Scandanavian language, derived from Icelandic.

Most European languages are still spoken in the Islands Clusters, although
in forms several thousand years removed from the ones with which we're
familiar.

>Does the Imperium place a language requirement on new member worlds,
>mandating that the planet begin teaching Vilani or Anglic in schools?
>

I'd say no. By the same token, however, if you ever want to leave your
homeworld, you'll learn Anglic (and maybe Vilani, too, in that region).
Virtually all Traveller characters should have some fluency in one or both.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:16:53 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

In message <3.0.5.16.19990401095354.47af6dbc@mail.hooked.net>, "Douglas
E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes
>To that end, I must demand that no further messages attempt to link our
>Type-214 HGW with Famile Spofulam VP D. Spofulam.  Failure to comply will
>result in prompt legal action.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Cassandra Gridlore
>Chief Consul, Gridlore Technologies.
>Sylea, Core.

I take it Gridlore's lawyers use in-house designed battledress?
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:50:11 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

Wire and duct tape!  That's how my old father fixes everything!


	The two gauss guns taped together does remind me of a weapon from the 
old Space Opera Game. it was called a Dolly Gun (for Dial-a-Gun) and was a 
laser, blaster and grenede launcher in a single weapon (three separate 
barrels).   
	I suppose you could built something like that at higher Taveller tech 
levels.  Perhaps a Heavy Laser Rifle, Gauss Rifle and Auto-Snub SMG built 
with a common stock (although I imagine this would be an Augmented Battle 
Dress weapon due to weight).

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:01:15 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rules of War

In a message dated 4/2/99 5:02:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< 
 Can anyone point me to some published references if there are any,
 please?
  >>
Check the Imperial Encyclopedia in MT,  or even better the new Star Mercs 
book for GURPS traveller has a longer article

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:08:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

Howdy!
> 
> Wire and duct tape!  That's how my old father fixes everything!
> 
> 
> 	The two gauss guns taped together does remind me of a weapon from the 
> old Space Opera Game. it was called a Dolly Gun (for Dial-a-Gun) and was a 
> laser, blaster and grenede launcher in a single weapon (three separate 
> barrels).   

This reminds me of one of the regulars at the paint ball field I used to
be a partner in...he taped a SMG and a regular paintball gun together with
the triggers lined up. "First" trigger was the pump, reach a bit farther
to tickle the SMG... It was moderately effective.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:24:11 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Languages in Traveller

Christopher Thrash wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Most European languages are still spoken in the Islands Clusters, although
in forms several thousand years removed from the ones with which we're
familiar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe not that many thousand years removed. Remember that the majority 
of the colonists travelled to the Islands in cold sleep, with every generation
of awake crew & colonists including some Earth-born colonists awakened
from cold sleep in shifts. Also, most of those thousands of years were
spent in a very limited, controlled environment - aboard colony ships.
Not a new environment for these people, as many had lived their lives on
orbital stations before they signed on the Long Range ESA mission.

Since the environment will have few novel experiences, I'd expect little
linguistic change - especially since the colonists had libraries and
videos in Earth languages, presenting a much more varied environment
than the one they lived in. The linguistic pressure would be towards
proper Earth dialect, rather than in their own directions, IMO. I'd expect
their languages to have drifted less than almost every other colony group, 
due to their long quarantine from the rest of the galaxy.

Of course, once they landed on planets and had entire new environments
and social structures to deal with, their languages would start changing
at more common rates.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:41:22 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Evil gun for GURPS:Traveller

X-TEK/Maximus News Release: 
092-1120 HRD (1623 Vincennes/Deneb)
X-TEK/Maximus Defence Industries unviels Ground Support Meson Gun

X-TEK/Maximus Defense Industries, LIC unveiled its latest addition to the
'Antioch Arms' line of ground support weapons.

Harry Morrant, Spokesmerc and Chief MIB of X-TEK demonstrated the weapon
to invited guests on the HRD main testing range this afternoon.

The targets included a Trepida Grav Tank, A Rampart class fighter, and a
suit of Commando Battledess.  All targets, except the Battledress, were
remotely piloted.  All targets were destroyed with extreme prejudice.

It is believed the Imperial Marines have an extreme interest in this
weapon. 

X-TEK SuX-2Bu 'Reaper' Meson Bazooka-12

100Mj Meson-12 Close Range, Compact, Shoulder Stock, RoF=1
Wt: 624.4 lbs.	Price: 82,440cr

15 Shot Recharge Battery:
Wt. 111 lbs.	Price: 11,100cr

HUDWAC: 
Wt. Neg.	Price:250cr

Laser Rangefinder(2.5mi): 
Wt. 1 lb.	Price:250cr

Meson Targeting Computer (small, dedicated, compact, hardened, Cx=6):
0.375 lbs.		500cr

Meson Targeting Program:
Cx=1	1000cr

Gyrostabilization:
0 lbs.	31,220cr

Contragrav Generators(750lbs):
10.375 lbs.	503.75cr		0.75kW

Battery for CG(21.4hrs duration):
2.85lbs	285cr

Weapon Stats:
Damage= 8d x100(!)  1/2D=1000   Max=3000
Acc=19   SS=20   STR=6(123)   Rcl=0
Weight=0(750)   Cost=128,038.75


The smallest meson gun possible at current technology.
At 750lbs, this monstrosity would be impossible to wield if not for the
contragravity generators.
A specialized computer is incorporated into the unit to provide a firing
solution for the meson gun.
The computer uses the data gained from the laser rangefinder and
calculates the decay rate based on how 'deep' the detonation should occur
within the target. The level of  'deepness' is set by the firer.
A HUDWAC is installed to provide optimal target and sighting information
to the wielder.  Information is displayed holographicly.

This ends this Press Release by X-TEK/Maximus Defense Industries, LIC

>END TRANSMISSION<


\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:03:16 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Weird Science:  And The Winner Is...

Those of you who thought "magnetism" were close but no cigar.

According to the article, the metal "..exerts a faint physical
attraction on every information-processing instrument so far
tested." Just what the instruments were isn't stated; they 
could have been rain gauges or a car's odometer, for all we
know.

So the only force which would provide the attraction stated
regardless of the nature of the instruments is..gravity!
Bravo to those who guessed correctly.

The second clue, BTW, was the distance of the instruments to
the metal when compared to the force of attraction.

All objects attract all other objects, according to the Law of
Gravitation, with the force of attraction equal to the inverse
square of the distance between the objects. Although magnetism
does the same, it won't attract non-magnetic instruments.

So much for my April Fools brain teaser.

Thank you for playing; we return you now to your regularly
scheduled Traveller program.

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:14:30 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hull armor (was Re: max accel)

>>>>> 40G is a MegaTraveller term for a hull with an armor value of 40 made
>>>>> of material code G (bonded superdense, IIRC). It is the equivalent to
>>>>> 33 cm of hard steel.
>>
>>You remember somewhat incorrectly.  It takes 33cm of hard steel to get
>>armor factor 40.  This is accomplished with equivalent hardness of bonded
>>superdense which works out to 0.14 of the mass of equivalent steel armor.
>
>Okay, I'm confused. I essentially stated that a hull with an armor value of
>40 is the equivalent of 33 cm of hard steel.
>
>What I meant by this was that a hull of bonded superdense with an armor
>value of 40 gives the same protection as a hull of hard steel 33 cm thick.
>I made no mention of how much superdense it takes to give this protection
>(did I?).
>
>Is this not the case? Or was I just unclear in my statement?
>

Chock it up to a lack of coffee.  You did, indeed, on rereading, say that,
adn I did misinterpret to mean that 1" of BD was equal to 33" of Hard Steel.

>>In other words, using Bonded Superdense to get the same armor value as 33cm
>>of hard steel requires about 1/7th the *mass* of equivalent Bonded
>>Superdense.  The ratio of the mass of armor to the volume of armor material
>>is a matter for a different discussion, and let's assume for this purpose
>>that they are about proportional.
>
>I thought it meant that a hull made of bonded superdense with _n_
>protection massed 14% (1/7th) what a hard steel hull with _n_ protection
>did. Or is this what you just said? :-)

I tried.  Again, the absence of sufficient caffeine may have had a negative
effect on my verbosity.

>BTW, where can I find this "different discussion?" Can I start one? :-)
>
>Does the 0.14 modifier mean that a hull of superdense masses the same as
>hard steel hull but is 14% the thickness? Or does superdense mass *more*
>than hard steel per cc (being superdense, it would seem this is the case),
>making hulls  even thinner?
>
>Just how thick is a 40G hull, anyhoo?

Ah, now you come to the essence of the "other discussion".

In Megatraveller, a hull has a certain amount of volume no matter what
material it is made of or what the armor value is, which is just silly.  If
you chose to make your ship out of, say, armor level 40 of cardboard, the
mass might increase tremendously, but you'd still have the same amount of
available tonnage internally to install stuff.  Other systems (striker I
think, and FF&S) require you to use internal volume to accomadate the
volume of the material of the armor.  MT simplifies this by not
aknowledging the volume.

So how thick is the armor, then, if we cannot directly determine the
thickness by the volume?  Well, the *mass* is 1/7th the mass of equivalent
Steel armor, but that is not the whole picture.  The density of the
material, as you point out above, will determine how much volume that mass
takes up.  Megatraveller is explicit that superdense is denser than other
materials, but bonded superdense is merely strengthened through an
"electrical current".  I would guess this adds no significant extra density
per se.

I think one of my other materials which are at home (I keep a set of basic
MT books at work for just these purposes) has the relative densities of the
other materials.  I will take a guess though that superdense is denser than
the densest "normal" element we know, which I think is Osmium at 22.6
g/cm^3 (my web resource for this data doesn't have the units mentioned, I
think this is the "standard" unit of measure).

If we guess that Superdense is, say, 30g/cm^3, and since Iron is 7.86
g/cm^3 (and steel is probably pretty close to that) then superdense is
probably about 3.75 times the density of Steel.  Therefore the thickness of
a typical hull is (33cm x .14 Div by 3.75=) 1.2cm of bonded superdense, at
a guess.

I would also say that there are ther factors; the shape of the hull and the
need for structural mmbers to be of a certain thickness, that will bring
the actual thickness of the hull plate down just a bit, on average.  It
would also make some sense if the hull plate on the outside of fuel tanks
were a bit thinner, and that around person-spaces a bit thicker along the
lines of the WWII battleships we were discussing before.  After all, a
typical puncture in the fuel spaces will not cause any real disaster.

Pete.


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:33:26 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite

Bloo,

IMTU it's possible to dump and not actually go anywhere. There doesn't have
to be any 3rd dimensional movement. I believe this is backed up by canon. I
believe I've read in the MT books somewhere about micro-jumps or in-system
jumps. It ceretainly seems resonable that you can choose your destination to
be the same as t he origin. You would simple "hide out" in jump space for a
week.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

>
>
>Shawn Campbell wrote:
>
>> I have placed my ideas about jump space as a FAQ at
>> http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/traveller/jumpfaq.html
>>
>> Please feel free to read and comment. I realize this isn't canon (but I
>> tried keeping close to HG/MT) and won't make everyone happy, but you
might
>> see something you like to add to your own theory. I am also interested in
>> input to make my theory any better.
>
>I sort of skimmed it and have a general question, not necessarily related
>to your pages.
>
>What is the minimum distance of a jump?
>
>Could I jump as little as one meter?  If say, I didn't want to be located
for
>a week?
>
>This would be enormously beneficial to smugglers and other criminals
providing
>a
>redoubt, as well as misleading authorities who may be chasing them, if
>possible.
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:55:17 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite

Of course, I meant jump and not dump. :)

> I Wrote:
>IMTU it's possible to dump and not actually go anywhere. There doesn't have


Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:00:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: OT: Lawyers

On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, steve daniels wrote:

> > << crooked lawyers (oxymoron), >>
> >
> >         redundant, rather,  honest lawyer is oxymoron
> 
> You're names have been noted and I've made sure that your copies
> of Far Trader are laced with undetectable contact poison that will
> make you go to law school.

Just for the record, my S.O. is a family law attorney in private practice,
and we're overdrawn (again) at the bank.

All attorneys aren't rich, or crooked. Not even a good percentage.

Brannon

PS: She says that people always used to ask her if being a lawyer was
really like LA Law. She'd always tell them, No, it's not like that at
all... Real lawyers get LOTS more sex.   ;)

ObTraveller: Is there such a thing as a "Public Defender" under Imperial
Law?

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:11:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: G:T -- TAS Membership

On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Christopher Thrash wrote:

> According to Dr. Kromm (the SJ Games GURPS guru) TAS membership is not an
> advantage -- it's an investment of sorts, or a possession. If you want, you
> could make TAS membership the justification for a Claim to Hospitality.

Thanks, Chris. If that's what Sean says, then I'll go with that. I suppose
I'll list it under "Licences and certifications" (expanding the categroy
to include memberships in guilds and organizations).

In Service to The Imperium,
Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:32:18 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:31:09 -0700 Bruce Johnson 
>
>The other reason for this was that the P-39 was notoriously 
>_different_
>to fly. Not a bad design, but for pilots breifly trained in light
>front-engined taildraggers, going to a heavier mid engine trike gear
>plane with no further training is going to be tricky at best.
>


Yep, the P39 was Chuck Yeager's first plane to train in.  He describes
rather well its penchant for drilling holes in the ground.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 10:20:59 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: TCS Campaign problem

It would appear we have one player (Serendip Belt) not responding, 
and another player (New Colchis) unable to play.  So, we're looking
for one definite player (New Colchis) and one alternate (Serendip Belt).


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:10:33 EST
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards

In a message dated 4/1/99 9:47:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
wombat@premier.net writes:

<< 
 I would draw your attention to the passage in which, in response to
 several unexplained Comet crashes, all Comets were grounded, and orders
 were cancelled. >>

I thought the Comets suffered from metal fatigue. In the wing roots, 
IIRC....and as passenger aircraft they never would use drop tanks 
anyway...but maybe I missed that part on "Wings" ;)

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 11:29:37 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: RE: TCS Campaign problem

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7CFC.17D09120
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'd be happy to take on the New Colchis slot. Rumors of an secret
alliance between Sansterre and New Colchis would then be
completely unfounded, of course. <weg>

Can you put a cut-off date on these two systems, and we fill them
with evil SDB's and Monitors? If each system spends all it's money
on system defense, no one (but maybe the Esperanzans) are going
to bother them, we can effectively have them out of play.

Walt Smith 

- -----Original Message-----
From:	Don McKinney [SMTP:dmckinne@itds.com]
Sent:	Friday, April 02, 1999 11:21 AM
To:	ct-starships@egroups.com
Cc:	Traveller Mailing List
Subject:	TCS Campaign problem

It would appear we have one player (Serendip Belt) not responding, 
and another player (New Colchis) unable to play.  So, we're looking
for one definite player (New Colchis) and one alternate (Serendip Belt).


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:32:32 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:

>>For further info, according to MT, armour factor 40 is equivalent to
>>CT armour factor 0 (ie minimum armour for a spaceship).
>>
>>So the armour of an Iowa is inferior to a Free Trader (on average).

>That flucks the reality test, big time!  A minimum of battle ships armor!?!
>So the hull of all space ships is made of 10+ inches of carbon steel!?!?!

No, it seems quite sensible. After all, the minimum armour requirement
is to resist micrometeor damage - and at the impact velocities we are
looking at, that's quite some armour.

You might also note that `x' protection factors of bonded superdense
armour is going to be much thinner than `x' protection factors of RHA. 

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #390
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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 391



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: OT: Lawyers
WBD 4.0
Re: GT equivalents to HG weapons/armor
Re: GT equivalents to HG weapons/armor
Re: lasers in atmosphere
Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: OT: Lawyers
Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles
Re: fighters and tanks
Re: Fusion exhaust...
Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 09:38:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> For those of you who wonder why Imperial economic interests might be
> reluctant to adopt drop tanks, I refer you to a similar situation,
> involving the De Havilland Comet, the first operational jet-propelled
> airliner.  The problems encountered by the Comet can be seen at:
> 
> http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/comet.htm
> 
> I would draw your attention to the passage in which, in response to
> several unexplained Comet crashes, all Comets were grounded, and orders
> were cancelled.

It's a bit more complex than drop tanks/no drop tanks. The Comet was the
first commercial jet aircraft, but by the time of the crashes, and
cancellation of the orders, Boeing was close to entry into the market,
with the 707, which was a far more robust, larger aircraft. That's what
really killed the Comet after the intial crashes. The commercial world
was willing to wait a few years for a more economical, safer aircraft.

Thus, the initial drop tank fiascos would probably only put off the
adoption of drop tanks by a few years, at most a decade, once they
figured out what was going on.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 09:41:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

Michael Houghton wrote:
> 

> This reminds me of one of the regulars at the paint ball field I used to
> be a partner in...he taped a SMG and a regular paintball gun together with
> the triggers lined up. "First" trigger was the pump, reach a bit farther
> to tickle the SMG... It was moderately effective.
> 

Didn't that make playing with him a little dicey?
 <pop> <SPLAT> 

'Oh you got me'

<BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM>

 'OOPS!, sorry chap! Squeezed a little hard there!'

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 08:32:41 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

FYI - I'm an underemployed attorney :) Just passed the bar working as a 
paralegal......Poor and honest :)

IMHU - There wouldn't be a public defender under Imperial Law...that 
seems a more "liberal" and "democratic" instution..although as GURPS 
Space notes..the Imperium is basically a good institution..I don't seem 
them setting up a PD system..
Mike




Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:56:22 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: WBD 4.0

Stuart,

Excellent job on the new version of World Builder Deluxe.  Overall, I
really like it.  The HTML formatted IS23 looks sweet, although it
keeps causing an error when I try to have the system generate world
details for the sector in that format.  (Always crashes on the first
world for me.)  Still, the plethora of info generated is outstanding!
 Thanks, also, for the honorable mention in your list of credits.

I did have a few suggestions to offer, if you have time.

1)  Since you obviously have the parser capacity to take entered UWP
data from SEC files, etc, why don't you remodel the Input UWP form
to become more user-friendly?  You can still use List Boxes for the
star data input, but you can take the UWP as an input field, run
some data verification to insure everything is in Upper case, and
then send it through your parser to seed your variables.  Either
method could be used for the Population, Belt and Gas Giant info,
depending on what looks good on the new form.  Just a suggestion.

2)  I noticed that the System Generation doesn't document satellites
for the worlds, like we see in published System Details.  I do
notice that satellites are generated in some of the data formats,
though. Would it be possible to include Satellite Generation as part
of System Details in a future release?  This way, if a Gas Giant
occupies the habitable zone of the System, the Mainworld can be a
Satellite of it.  I would like that very much, just for the flavor
it gives a setting.  Also, in this way Satellites could also receive
their own World Details sheet, which may spark some thoughts and
concepts for adventures and locations.  Just a thought.

3)  In Extended System Generation, I notice that worlds other than
the mainworld are not assigned an alternate name, such as those
suggested by the nomenclature from Book 6: Scouts or MegaTraveller
Referee's Manual.  While the name of the star doesn't have to be
listed, perhaps the greek letters, etc, might be listed in the name
field of the world or satellite to help with in-system references.

4)  The System Details data can also be HTML-ized.  I could send you 
a few examples if you are interested in the code or format.

5)  Also, since you have the capacity to generate Sectors randomly,
I would assume that you have a means of evaluating the generated
data for Trade Classifications.  You can also send the Inputted UWP
through the same classification process, and thus relieve the user
of entering that data on the Input UWP form as well.

6)  Finally, I would like to know what error has occured when one 
does, so that I might be able to figure out if it has to do with my 
file structure or with an internal problem within WBD.  It can prove 
helpful in diagnosing other bugs that may crop up as the fans put 
your hard work through its paces.

Once again, thanks for a great job!  I like it, and will be using it 
for some time, I'm sure.  (Or, at least until the next version comes 
along.)   :)

In Service,
Jason

PS  One last thing, could you make it minimizable, so that I can hide 
it from my boss while I'm using it at work.  :)  j/k
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:53:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT equivalents to HG weapons/armor

Thomas Schoene writes:
> In the course of this effort, two questions have come up.
> 
> 1) Has anyone has figured out reasonable GT equivalents to the standardized
> High Guard spinal mounts?  What would be a fair rating for the spinal
> mounts presented in GT?

Figure that a spinal mount does 6d*250 * sqrt(# of spaces), has a 1/2 damage
range of 1 hex per 6d*1000, Max of 3x that, costs , and has sufficient Acc to
make the question unimportant.  To determine the number of spaces, add up the
spaces of the weapon (in HG) and the power points it uses -- so a type T meson
(7000 spaces, 3000 energy) is 10,000 spaces, does 6d*25,000, and has a 1/2D
range of 25 hexes
> 
> 2) Are there any straightforward ways to convert the armor ratings from HG
> into GT damage resistance?  Likewise meson screens and nuke dampers.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help.  
> 
> PS: I'll try to post a draft of the cruiser this weekend; I just need to
> pick up Star Mercs for the fusion guns.
> 
> Tom Schoene
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:55:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT equivalents to HG weapons/armor

Thomas Schoene writes:
> In the course of this effort, two questions have come up.
> 
> 1) Has anyone has figured out reasonable GT equivalents to the standardized
> High Guard spinal mounts?  What would be a fair rating for the spinal
> mounts presented in GT?

Figure that a spinal mount does 6d*250 * sqrt(# of spaces), has a 1/2 damage
range of 1 hex per 6d*1000, Max of 3x that, costs about .6 MCr/space, and has
sufficient Acc to make the question unimportant.  To determine the number of
spaces, add up the spaces of the weapon (in HG) and the power points it uses --
so a type T meson (7000 spaces, 3000 energy) is 10,000 spaces, does 6d*25,000, 
has a 1/2D range of 25 hexes, and costs MCr 6,000.
> 
> 2) Are there any straightforward ways to convert the armor ratings from HG
> into GT damage resistance?  Likewise meson screens and nuke dampers.

Not really.  I'd convert by taking the actual volume of the armor, filling it
all with manuever drives, and then piling on however much DR gives me the
correct final performance.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:01:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: lasers in atmosphere

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> There's a lot of parameter space to play around with with pulse duration - 
> a 100 Mj laser with a 1 second pulse, for example, is probably OK. The
> 1 second pulse would hurt armour penetration, but not damage, I think.

Hm...it might well have atrocious effects on armor penetration, if you want the
classic 1cm beam, even normal target movement could probably scatter the beam
across a hundred square centimeters or more (and presumably a vehicle being
shot at by a laser will respond by moving to scatter the beam).  Not sure how
the penetration effects would compare with just increasing the focal area to
around ten cm across and keeping the pulse extremely short (the second doesn't
require as much additional design work on the laser, since pulse and beam are
fairly different).  In any case, lasers in atmosphere _have_ to be visible
light, X-ray lasers will get stopped pretty much regardless of how you do it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 08:49:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

At 12:59 PM 4/1/99 -0600, you wrote:

>BTW, does this gem have hardware for, say, internal corridor mounts?
>I have this exploratory merchant which just happens to be planning
>on going outside the Imperium...
>
>Sir Daven Hevelin, (Order of Deneb)
>Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock

You want your interior defense weapons to fire sub-crtical nuclear
muntions?!?!

...Yeah, we can do that.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 09:01:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

At 12:16 PM 4/2/99 +0100, you wrote:

>I take it Gridlore's lawyers use in-house designed battledress?

Even worse. custom desgined expert systems that use every facet of Imperial
and planetary law to sue you, your descendants, and even your ancestors.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 12:47:51 -0500
From: Alan Chambers <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

Two Gauss Rifles taped together? OKAY. The guys going to have to hip fire.
The point of aim is going to off for both guns. How is he going to hold it?
You need a firm grip on a Longarm in two locations to control the recoil.
Is he going use the pistol grip on Rifle "A" and the fore grip on "B"? I
would have the weapons bash his fingers every time he fired them. Make a
roll to hold on. Double any recoil penalties for both weapons and multiply
by Two. You could also rule that the two magnetic fields interfere with
each other. There is also the problem of over heating.

Just for giggles look at this.
http://www.webcom.com/imarms/

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:48:02 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

In a message dated 4/2/99 11:54:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< HU - There wouldn't be a public defender under Imperial Law...that 
 seems a more "liberal" and "democratic" instution..although as GURPS 
 Space notes..the Imperium is basically a good institution..I don't seem 
 them setting up a PD system.. >>


	Also, I don't really see a great deal of crime in the Imperium being 
tried in Imperial courts, mostly things like piracy, smuggling, hijacking, 
violation of the rules of war, so a regular public defender's office wouldn't 
be needed.   Most legal precedent could be accesssed with software, so if you 
need eloquence, you're going to have to pay.
	There would, however be abudant public defenders on various worlds, 
depending on whether their legal systems are largely based on Solomani 
tradition or not.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:20:14 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

I'm sure ;)

Jesse




>In message <3.0.5.16.19990401095354.47af6dbc@mail.hooked.net>, "Douglas
>E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes
>>To that end, I must demand that no further messages attempt to link our
>>Type-214 HGW with Famile Spofulam VP D. Spofulam.  Failure to comply will
>>result in prompt legal action.
>>
>>Thank you.
>>
>>Cassandra Gridlore
>>Chief Consul, Gridlore Technologies.
>>Sylea, Core.
>
>I take it Gridlore's lawyers use in-house designed battledress?
>-- 
>Martin Hardgrave
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:40:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Alan Chambers wrote:

> Two Gauss Rifles taped together? OKAY.

For some strange reason, people in the real world do not run around in
combat with two rifles duct-taped together.

I think I'd have to "Just Say No."

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:42:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

In mail you write:

> On 01 Apr, Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
>
>> The C-N-O cycle (Bethe Solar Phoenix) may yeild more, but I'm a bit too
>> tired to calculate that. Things *definitely* go downhill after that. 
>
> The C-N-O cycle is just a catalyst for the 4H -> He4 reaction.
>
>           C12 + H -> N13,
>           N13     -> C13 + e
>           C13 + H -> N14,
>           N14 + H -> O15
>           O15     -> N15 + e
>           N15 + H -> C12 + He4
>
> It requires much higher temperatures and pressures but runs faster,
> boosting the energy output of stars larger than the sun.
>
> (source "The Physical Universe, F.H.Shu)

Duh.. I should have realized that. 

Do you have reference handy for the elements that make up the "layers"
in a star that's about to supernova? I know that the outermost shell
will have some hydrogen burning and the next shell will be helium
burning. But I'm not sure what the succeding shells are except for the
last one being silicon ( 2 Si28 -> 1 Fe56). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:47:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gas Giants (was Fleet Ops)

In mail you write:

> At 10:29 PM 3/31/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>> True, but will all the atmosphere be is such turmoil?  I would postulate
>>> that by the time we will need to answer this question in game time, we 
> will
>>> have developed some sort of weather radar to determine the clamer spots in
>>> the GG.  Naturally this is where the defenders might be lurking, but it
>>> might give a calmer refueling run.
>>
>>Slight problem. Your skimming run will necessarily be a straight line
>>thru around 20,000 km of GG atmosphere. It's *really* unlikely that all
>>of that will be even *relatively* calm. 
>
> Why would it be a straight line?  Certainly they can maneuver, though not
> as radically as if they were in space, and if they mapped the GG weather
> patterns it should give them a fairly good chance of avoiding the turbulence.

It'll be a straight line for two reasons. First, you need a *high*
speed, since most ships lack the acceleration to get away from anything
*close* to a standing start.

Second, at any sort of speed worth mentioning, you *can't* make large
course changes unless you want your ship ripped to shreds. You basicly
need a headaway that is substantially larger than the local wind
velocities. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:02:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Not, true.  The air craft fight from the atmosphere.  No 'boost' phase.
> Second any planet that consedes space superiorty will likely loose so 24
> deep meson sites on the planet and 24 more on the moon with a massively
> redundant remote sensor system.

Please note that Earth's moon is an aberration. A typcal moon for an
Earth sized planet will be more like Phobos or Deimos (the moons of
Mars). Big enough to provide *some* protection, but not much. Rocks a
few miles across. A few heavy meson gun shots and the crust will be
well cracked and of little protection for a meson site.

Also, they'll be a hell of a lot *closer*. 

Terra/Luna is more of a "double planet" and thus a *rare* configuration.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:09:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> At 07:48 PM 4/1/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>>For further info, according to MT, armour factor 40 is equivalent to
>>>CT armour factor 0 (ie minimum armour for a spaceship).
>>>
>>>So the armour of an Iowa is inferior to a Free Trader (on average).
>>>
>>>Phil Kitching
>>>
>>
>>That flucks the reality test, big time!  A minimum of battle ships armor!?!
>>So the hull of all space ships is made of 10+ inches of carbon steel!?!?!
>
> No, it's made of a quarter inch or so of bonded superdense.  Or something
> like that.  

And you need the equivalent of several *feet* of steel to protect
against solar flares and the like.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:13:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> At 05:03 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 09:24 PM 3/31/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>>>The YF-12A was built.  Three examples IIRC.  They carried the missiles in
>>>>individual bays and were to provide a high speed, high altitude defense 
> for
>>>>CONUS.  I seem to remember that they are either in storage or on static
>>>>display.
>>>>
>>>
>>>That's news to me.  What did they do to fit missles into that thing?  There
>>>is not a lot of waste space and anything on the outside would cause 
> problems
>>>for the aerodynamic or get burned of due to friction.
>>
>>The missiles were stored internally in the body of the craft.  If you look
>>at the aircraft from the front, it would look like this:  --\<O>/--  The
>>missiles are stored in individual cells in the < and > parts of the
>>illustration.  I think I have an illustration of the loadout somewhere at
>>home.  If you want, I can scan the relevant illustration and send it to you.
>>
>
> I'd appreciate it.  I wonder what would be involved to conver the sr71 model
> into the combat version?

The one I had (from a 60s era kit) had what looked suspiciously like
missile bays on the underside. I can't be sure as I got the assembled
model from a friend who was clearing out excess stuff.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:34:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles

In mail you write:

> At 09:47 PM 3/31/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Thrusters as described in Traveller are flat out impossible. They let
>>you get energy for free. There are several ways of using thrusters to
>>build a perpetual motion machine.
>
> You don't get energy for free.  Energy is still conserved (or at least it
> could be, if the numbers in the game system are correct.  I haven't checked
> them)  The law of physics you are breaking is conservation of momentum.
> That does indeed appear to some from nowhere.

So does kinetic energy. Without an "exhaust", you wind up with energy
that came from "nowhere". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:38:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A way to explain thrusters, was re: Missiles

In mail you write:

>> This has the same problem as the above. Conservation laws *require*
>> that the amount of energy required go up as the square of the velocity.
>> So whatever amount of energy it takes to get you to 1 km/sec, it take
>> *4* times that to get to 2 km/sec and *9* times as much to get to 3
>> km/sec. Thus you rapidly run into diminishing returns.
>> 
>
> Yes, I know. Power requierement = Force * velocity.
> This power usually has to be produced by your power plant.

So consider the power required to give 2g of acceleration to a ship
that is already moving at 100 km/s. Assume 500t same as in your
example below. F=M*a, so P = M*a*V

P=500,000*20*100,000
P=1e12

So to continue accelerating at 2g after reaching 100 km/s, your scout
requires 1 *terawatt* of power! And this goes up linearly with your
velocity. 

>> Thrusters as described in Traveller are flat out impossible. They let
>> you get energy for free. There are several ways of using thrusters to
>> build a perpetual motion machine.
>
> You are right with this, too. But conservation of energy breaks _every_
> thruster in traveller. Just take an average scout/courier: 500t, 2g
> acceleration (as given in the TNE-handbook). As described in Traveller
> (every version), acceleration to 100 km/s (not really fast for a ship in
> Traveller) would take 5000 s, somewhat less than 1.5 hours. The kinetic
> energy of the ship is about 2.5 * 10^15 J ( = 2.500.000 GJ). It takes a
> 500 GW power plant to produce that amount of energy in the given time,
> the third of the power plant of a tigress battle ship

>> Reaction drives are far more efficient than the "real" thrusters I
>> described above. This is because they push against their own exhaust,
>> which always starts out at rest with respect to the ship. Thus it
>> always take the same energy to accelerate. Only problem is when you run
>> out of fuel. :-)

> See above.

Ever check the power output of a rocket engine? You'll be shocked. As I
recall the Space Shuttle engines "only" generate a few hundred MW. 

I'm too tired to try to figure the power output of a fusion rocket
right now. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:51:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: fighters and tanks

In mail you write:

>>In that case, what you want is a tank. An airbreathing aerodynamic lift
>>vehicle just can't carry the armour to compete with a grav tank; I think
>>no-one would argue that grav tanks will beat space fighters of equivalent
>>price either.
>>
>>Bruce
>
> I have a problem with high penetration lasers in an atmosphere; above a
> certain power level they'd turn the air into plasma which would be
> extremely hard to shine through. GGG has info on this and to me it seems to
> rule out lasers as tankbusters. (I'm well aware that high pen lasers are
> serious Canon stuff and I wouldn't want to lose them but can somebody come
> up with a good handwave why they should work?).

That's *why* I want my space fighter zipping along at Mach 25. The
plasma sheath may make me noticeable, but it ought to seriously
compromise the usefulness of any lasers.

And I still think that with the right sort of electromagnetic and
electrostatic fields, you could interact with the ionized air to tailor
the hypersonic airflow.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:37:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fusion exhaust...

In mail you write:

>>A fusion rocket just dumps *everything out the tail end after fusing
>>some of the hydrogen. So it'll have an exhuast of high temp hydrogen
>>plasma with some helium impurities. It'll be so hot that it'll be
>>invisible except for a slight violet glow. Most of the radiation will
>>likely be in the UV and X-ray range.
>
> I might be wrong here but...
> For any two blackbody radiators the radiation in any given wavelength
> segment would be higher in the high temp than in the low temp. So a 300
> Kelvin blackbody would radiate far less in the IR than an 1000 000 Kelvin
> one but the peak wavelength would be much lower for the high temp one (peak
> wavelength inversely proportional to temperature).

Peak wavelength goes down (ie more towards UV, xray, gamma, etc) as
temp goes up.

Also, this is about as far from a "black body" as you can get. *Very*
high temp hydrogen (like the soloar corona, only worse) *and* highly
ionized. The radiation is likely to be electrons dropping from high
orbits to lower (but still above ground state) orbits. As I recall,
most of the Lyman series of hydrogen lines are in the UV. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 13:31:09 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards

BobS. wrote:

>I thought the Comets suffered from metal fatigue. In the wing roots,
>IIRC...

metal fatigue yes, but not in the wing roots, in the passenger cabin
skin caused by the windows being too large.

Charles
http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 11:26:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)

>      4.   Change the rules for passage costs. Even if IYTU you have ruled
> that the Imperium subsidises ticket prices to keep them down, you can
> easily say that cruise ships are a special case and are able to charge
> more. After all, "normal" passage is generally one-way, at least for a
> particular starship. Cruises, however, are generally round trips. Allowing
> cruise ships to charge higher prices will not affect the transportation
> economy at all.

I'm going to be taking a trip in a week or so. On Amtrak. I'll be in a
"standard bedroom", so I'll try to note the dimensions. The "Deluxe"
bedroom includes a sink, toilet and shower, so it's sort of equivalent
to a "standard" stateroom in Traveller, right down to double occupancy.
I'll see if I can get a look at one of those.

Remember that some routes take 3-4 days, so it's not *too* far from
jump. I'm only taking the first leg (8 hours) of the Portland to
Chicago route, which is 2-3 days. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #391
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 392



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #386
Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
Re: Lawyers
Languages in Traveller
Rules of War
OT: Lawyers
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: autofire/rapid fire
TI/TJ plans
Re: OT: Lawyers
Moons
Re: OT: Lawyers
Re: OT: Lawyers
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re 10 diameters, 100 diameters
Re: Garbage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:54:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Table-Top Fusion A Reality

In mail you write:

>>Peter Brenton;
>>> I couldn't get a straight (i.e.layman's) answer out of my sources
>>> here as to what kind of fusion it was, given the choices, but I found out
>>> that much.
>
> Shadow Replied;
>>
>>Any chance it was what the Analog article described?
>
> Which was?

Analog, Dec 1998. "The World's Simplest Fusion Reactor", by Tom Ligon

Basicly using a spherical "grid" to create a space charge and
accelerate hydrogen ions towards the (empty) center. The voltages
required aren't that hard to generate, and while most of the ions would
"miss" each other as they zipped thru the center, they'd be slowed as
they climbed against the electrical potential. They'll brake to a stop
and fall back for another pass. 

The grid is *very* sparse as you only need a few wires to setup up an
adequately shaped potential well. So only a few ions get lost by
colliding with the grid. 

Apparently the devices are considered "Inertial Electrostatic
Confinement" reactors. And are a class of "Spherical Convergent Focus
Electrostatic Ion Accelerators". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:03:56 -0500
From: Joseph Coles <coles@evtc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #386

>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 17:06:47 -0500
>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
>
>
>
>You missed the part about the grid.  The Natural shape of a jump field is a
>spheroid around the coil.  Larger coil = bigger spheroid.  This becomes cost
>ineffective for ships that are really long because you'd need a coil large
enough
>to encompass the longest part of the ship.  To cut down on expensive coil size,
>you introduce jump grids which squish the spheroid shape into a tighter
skin at an
>arbitrary distance from the hull (1-2 meters).  Thus the unification of
coils and
>grids.  You always need the coil, but grids make best use of the field.


I like this description.  Will this be aggreed upn by both camps in the coil
vs grid debate?  

And if you need to extend a jump field beyond a basic ship, for a bulk
carrier, or a battle rider, etc, you can.  Very nice.  This will also allow
subordinate craft to carried externally - the grid/coil combo has to allow
for a craft of a particular size and configuration, but not a particular
individual craft.  Now to make economic sense, the coil must be much more
expensive than the grid - more lanthanum, or a purer form, or a rarer
isotope?   
>
- ---------------
Joe Coles
coles@evtc.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:37:46 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re:  New weapon for GURPS:Traveller

Douglas E. Berry posted:
>
>At 12:59 PM 4/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>BTW, does this gem have hardware for, say, internal corridor mounts?
>>I have this exploratory merchant which just happens to be planning
>>on going outside the Imperium...
>>
>>Sir Daven Hevelin, (Order of Deneb)
>>Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
>
>You want your interior defense weapons to fire sub-crtical nuclear
>muntions?!?!
>
>...Yeah, we can do that.

Well..I didn't say *I'd* be onboard the ship.   ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:43:19 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Lawyers

> ObTraveller: Is there such a thing as a "Public Defender" under Imperial
> Law?

...that reminds me, what does the Judicial system of the Imperium look like?
Is it a separate branch?  Or is this something that is included in the
duties of nobles?  Are cases decided by the local nobles at hand, with
appeals to going before higher nobles (possibly with the Emperor being akin
to the Supreme Court)?  Or are appeals even allowed?

Are defendants presumed innocent until proven guilty, or vice versa?

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 11:56:39 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Languages in Traveller

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

I think that Kenji runs a separate mailing list devoted entirely to
discussion of languages in Traveller. 
 
> So what's the 'official' language of the Imperium? Are all official
> correspondence, TNS dispatches, Emporer's speeches, given in both Vilani
> and Anglic forms? How about signs in the starport?

I think canon holds that the "official" languages are Galanglic and
Vilani, and that all official documents are in both languages -- but
then, it could be just Galanglic.  

> Does the Imperium place a language requirement on new member worlds,
> mandating that the planet begin teaching Vilani or Anglic in schools?

1)  Most worlds will have retained some use of Vilani and Galanglic,
because the Imperium is largely coterminus with the Ziru Sirka and Rule
of Man.  

2)  Imperial policy in this regard depends on the time about which
you're asking the question.  During the time that the Solomani faction
had a lot of power at court, it's likely that they tried to
"solomanicize" the Imperium, in part by imposing Galanglic language
requirements on new members.  By the 1100s (and certainly for a long
time before), the Imperium had developed a "hands off" policy toward
most of the internal governance of its member states.

3)  At any time, the languages of court and the Imperial Government will
be Galanglic and Vilani, so all member states will necessarily want some
parts of their populations to be able to use these languages.  Galanglic
and Vilani will also be the linguae francae of commerce in the Imperium,
as Vilani was during the Ziru Sirka.  

> I'm thinking over how I'm going to attack this problem in my game, and I
> thought I'd see how others feel.

I have a couple of thoughts that you might find helpful.  

First, humans create new languages rather quickly, starting almost as
soon as a group becomes isolated.  The history of humans in space
includes many long periods of isolation, and one therefore expects that
many worlds will have developed their own languages.  The Ancients put
humans on some worlds, and these populations were isolated for some
300,000 years until contacted by the Ziru Sirka or, much later, the
Zhodani Consulate.  The pre-contact languages on these worlds will each
be unique, and each world will likely have many languages -- after all,
these humans have had as much time to develop languages as humans on
Terra.  Colonists from the Ziru Sirka and, very much later, from Terra,
moved to other worlds -- some without Ancient-placed humans and some
with -- and then were cut off from interstellar culture during the Long
Night and even during the Rule of Man.  Languages will have developed on
these worlds, too. (I don't remember Zhodani history well enough to
comment on this point.)  

Second, technology will affect language development and Traveller play. 
(1) Broadcast telecommunications will tend to standardize the languages
broadcast.  Travel times may mean that worlds aren't bombarded daily
with standardized language.  (2) Language translation devices will be
ubiquitous in a cosmopolitan, polyglot Imperium.  The typical translator
will be a computer with vocabulary and grammar for as many languages as
can be crammed into its hard drive, and with both vocal and visual
inputs and outputs.  It should be the size of the Book 3 hand computer.  

Language difficulties (and overcoming them) are a part of travelling in
the Real World (tm) -- and, more important, part of the fun of such
travel.  They should also enhance Travelling in the Far Future.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 12:13:40 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Rules of War

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
 
> Can anyone point me to some published references if there are any,
> please?

Imperial Encyclopedia at 28, 49.
Striker, Rule Book 2 -- Advanced Rules, Rule 78, at 43-44.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 12:41:54 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: OT: Lawyers

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
 
> ObTraveller: Is there such a thing as a "Public Defender" under Imperial
> Law?

No, I don't think so.  Bear in mind that Imperial law doesn't have
anything to do with local law, other than outlawing slavery.  So if
you're facing criminal charges on some planet, you're subject to its
laws and you have the civil rights that it provides, which could be more
or less than under Imperial law.  Maybe you get a PD, maybe not.  What
are the government type and law level?  That should give you some idea
of your civil rights.

You'll only get before an Imperial court on charges relating to Imperial
crimes:  treason, espionage, piracy, lese-majeste, or other Imperial
High Crimes; or violence, theft, etc. committed on Imperial property
(like a starport) -- i.e., Imperial Low Crimes.  

The Imperium doesn't have a tradition of bourgeois civil rights, the
Magna Charta, the Bill of Rights, and all that stuff that we take for
granted today.  The Emperor is an absolute ruler; the nobles have
absolute rights to rule subject to the Emperor's grant.  Your civil
rights as a citizen of the Imperium are to be protected from outside
invasion and internal slavery and piracy, but that's about all.  If
you're also a noble, you're entitled to certain courtesies, and to make
privileged speeches on the Moot floor -- privileged in that you can't be
prosecuted for libel, treason, or sedition for what you say, nor even
for lese-majeste unless you're being really stupid and say something
that really causes a lesion on His Majesty.

On the other hand, the Imperial government wants to cultivate an image
of legitimacy.  It wants to rule with the active, enthusiastic consent
of the governed.  That's the basis of the "hands off local matters"
policy.  When the Imperium is going to prosecute someone, it looks at it
as a political matter, and weighs what must be done to appear to be
righteous.  

I think that I wrote a lot about my views on this subject on this list a
few years ago. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 12:09:12 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>

> I think we have the same idea for this weapon. I was thinking of keeping the
> increased difficulty level due to the make-shift nature of the weapon (duct
> tape). If the player chooses to make more permanent modifications (welding,
> etc...) then I'll probably reduce the DM to -2 (-4 for rapid fire). If he
> goes to the trouble of designing a double-barreled gauss rifle and gets
> sufficient practice then I would consider dropping the -DM.

Good point.  Even TL 15 duct tape is still ... duct tape.  It'll give
when the weapon is carried and fired, he'll have to re-tape
occasionally.  What if it's raining?  I guess TL 15 adhesive will last a
while.  
 
> I agree no RAM grenades. ...and as far as the sight is converned, it
> probably won't be an issue. This player is more of the mind "more bullets is
> better than aiming" usually taking combat slow and conducting rapid fire

I'm not surprised.  Have you ever seen that Movie of the Week from like
1972 with two soldiers on an island?  I think Darrin McGavin is the US
soldier.  The US and maybe China have gotten into some unsolvable
conflict, but neither wants full-scale war, so they agree to a duel of
champions and agree to abide by the result.  Anyway, the American has
this cool double-barrelled SMG.  It was like a Schmeisser or and M-3,
but with two barrells and two magazines.  It really tore up the jungle.  

> I imagine if the sights were actually used, only one of the sights could be
> used and the other gun only hits on a successful pinpoint location shot.
> (aim specifically off center but still in an area that can be hit by both
> barrels)

If he's using a laser sight, I would just treat it as a normal laser
sight -- after all, if he hits the red dot, the other bullet is hitting
just a couple cm away.  Maybe he'd want to use both laser sights,
anyway, to terrorize the enemy a little more.  

The visual/electronic/image enhanced/whatever sight, on the other hand,
might be more of a problem.  What if it's on the side of the weapon, and
not on top?  That will interfere with taping -- or he'll have to remove
the right rifle's sight.  

This guy sounds like fun.  Give him some good challenges.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 12:18:46 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

> From: AveNelso@aol.com
 
>         The two gauss guns taped together does remind me of a weapon from the 
> old Space Opera Game. it was called a Dolly Gun (for Dial-a-Gun) and was a 
> laser, blaster and grenede launcher in a single weapon (three separate 

Gordon Dickson calls it the Dally Gun, again for "dial-a-gun".  It's in
one of the Dorsai books, probably Tactics of Mistake.  (The Dorsai
series is must-read material for mercenary campaigns.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:39:16 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: TI/TJ plans

>No official deck plans were ever made for this ship. I've seen G.C.'s
>roughs however, and IMHO they SHOULD be the offical ones. If GypsyComet
>has cleaned them up and finished them please, please publish them
>somewhere!
>
>Mike
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> 
> >From what Nicholas Wright told me in personal e-mail, it looks like I was
>> confusing the ship (the March Harrier) in the back of the Traveller
>> Adventure with a TI or TJ.  I can't check it myself since I can't find my
>> copy of the book.  Bummer (especially since the book belongs to someone
>> else!!).  The good news is that GypsyComet sent me a real clean set of TJ
>> plans that he had created.
> 


 Those roughs are now on my website:

  http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

and check the New section.

GC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 16:13:26 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

Michael McKeown wrote:

> IMHU - There wouldn't be a public defender under Imperial Law...that
> seems a more "liberal" and "democratic" instution..although as GURPS
> Space notes..the Imperium is basically a good institution..I don't seem
> them setting up a PD system..
> Mike

Gurps Space and the Imperium?  Huh?

FWIW, since all Imperial citizens (nobles excluded of course), would
presumably have equal access to whatever courts exist, a public defender
would be mandatory _if_ you have an adversarial judicial system.
If you have an inquisitorial system, then it wouldn't be necessary,
though to promote fairness, I suspect there would still be some sort of
public advocate/defender available for indigents.

Its still in development, but I envision for MTU, a fairly complicated
system,
with an inquisitorial Ministry of Justice that is judge/investigator for
crimes (with
prosecution handled by a separate department withing the MoJ), and only as
judge for civil law matters, with hefty fees for using the Imperial Courts.

I should have said "varied" instead of "complicated."  I think that exactly
what
type of judicial system seen in the 3I will vary by location, and local
nobility.
In the Spinward Marches, you might be likely to see "frontier" justice,
with
brutal efficiency, but in Core, you might see a system full of ancient
ritual
and procedure.

Of course, Dukes and Archdukes probably have a great deal of leeway in
particular refinements they wish to make.  I have in mind a totally
different
system for dealing with lawsuits involving Imperial nobility.

I've actually been drafting something this week on these topics, and may
post
something soon.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 16:16:54 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Moons

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"Terra/Luna is more of a "double planet" and thus a *rare* 
configuration."

	Hmmmmm. This may well be true (I assume that it is 
	for MTU), but unless you have access to astonomical
	data that is denied to the rest of us you might
	consider inserting the word "probably" (or some
	such) before *rare*.

Peez (AKA Ian)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 16:22:03 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/2/99 11:54:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:
>
> << HU - There wouldn't be a public defender under Imperial Law...that
>  seems a more "liberal" and "democratic" instution..although as GURPS
>  Space notes..the Imperium is basically a good institution..I don't seem
>  them setting up a PD system.. >>
>
>         Also, I don't really see a great deal of crime in the Imperium being
> tried in Imperial courts, mostly things like piracy, smuggling, hijacking,
> violation of the rules of war, so a regular public defender's office wouldn't
> be needed.   Most legal precedent could be accesssed with software, so if you
> need eloquence, you're going to have to pay.

Who says legal precedent will be important at all.  Its not crucial in most of
the
world.

>         There would, however be abudant public defenders on various worlds,
> depending on whether their legal systems are largely based on Solomani
> tradition or not.

Uhm, I think you mean American.  If we were going by number of governments
or population, the Anglo-American or 'Common Law' system of law is in the
minority of approaches to legal systems.  More common is the 'Civil' or
'Romano-Germanic' system
(the term 'civil' referring to the Justinian Code), which  generally uses a
common Code of
laws, written in allegedly plain language, which is then interpreted by courts in
each
particular case.  Although, 'standard'  interpretations exist for the most part
in these
systems, strictly speaking, such courts are rarely, if ever, required to follow
the rule of
'stare decisis' (the thing decided), i.e., _binding_ precedent, and may decide
each case
without being held to apply rules used in previous decisions.  In the 1960s, even
England
(UK) backed away, at least officially, from the strict stare decisis rule that
the US at least
purports to practice.

I'd be interested to hear speculations on how Vilani legal processes might vary
from
Solomani systems (both Civil and Common).

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 16:26:38 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
>
> > ObTraveller: Is there such a thing as a "Public Defender" under Imperial
> > Law?
>
> No, I don't think so.  Bear in mind that Imperial law doesn't have
> anything to do with local law, other than outlawing slavery.

That depends on how much credence you give to the Imperial Constitution
that appears in Milieu 0.  If you accept it, and I do, then the Imperium is
has
an authority as broad as that of the US Congress to legislate under the
Commerce clause of the US Constitution.

I've recently written a couple of pages on this very topic that I will post
to my website soon.  Its too long, and probably too dry for the non-legal
types, to post here.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:28:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 

> Good point.  Even TL 15 duct tape is still ... duct tape.  It'll give
> when the weapon is carried and fired, he'll have to re-tape
> occasionally.  What if it's raining?  I guess TL 15 adhesive will last a
> while.

Uhh, ever use milspec Duct Tape?  AKA 600 mph tape, AKA The Force (it
has a Dark side, and a Light side, and it binds the Universe together
;-)

Quite strong and pretty damn waterproof, too. You can't wrap it on
something when it's raining, but that's about it. And if it's not
raining too hard you can stick it on, just requires a paper towel to
absorb the water off the surface as you lay it down.

NB: Spoken from RL experience. When (lo these many years ago) I decided
to gallivant across country on my Moto Guzzi, one essential tool in my
hardbags was my roll of 600mph tape.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 17:34:15 -0400
From: Denis Allain <wizards@nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re 10 diameters, 100 diameters

- --------------095BA74BB81D59CC44AC590A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> The charts *may* be based on accelerating until you are halfway there
> and then decelerating from there to the limit, so you arrive "at rest".
> Or they may be based on accelerating all the way, so you arrive moving
> like a bat out of hell. The two situations give *very* different
> answers.
>

I calculated a ship accelerating to the midway point, and then
decelerating. If you look at the time charts in the Imperial
Encyclopedia, then the distance is not equivalent to calculating 10
times the planet's diameter to get the 10 diameter distance, nor 100
diameter. In fact, the distance that the Encyclopedia seems to show is
that the distance is considerably more than the x 10 or x 100 (multiply
by 10 or 100). Strange. From what I gather, I may ignore these tables,
since they would make drawing a space map time consuming.

Thanks for all the feedback, but I am still stomped by the charts.

Denis Allain

- --------------095BA74BB81D59CC44AC590A
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>The charts *may* be based on accelerating until you are halfway there
and then decelerating from there to the limit, so you arrive "at rest".
Or they may be based on accelerating all the way, so you arrive moving
like a bat out of hell. The two situations give *very* different
answers.</pre>
</blockquote>

<p><br>I calculated a ship accelerating to the midway point, and then decelerating.
If you look at the time charts in the Imperial Encyclopedia, then the distance
is not equivalent to calculating 10 times the planet's diameter to get
the 10 diameter distance, nor 100 diameter. In fact, the distance that
the Encyclopedia seems to show is that the distance is considerably more
than the x 10 or x 100 (multiply by 10 or 100). Strange. From what I gather,
I may ignore these tables, since they would make drawing a space map time
consuming.
<p>Thanks for all the feedback, but I am still stomped by the charts.
<p>Denis Allain</html>

- --------------095BA74BB81D59CC44AC590A--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:48:24 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

[OK, I'm going to start trimming replies or not respond at all
after this.  Gary is starting to tick me off....

One thing is that the differnt
views appear to be based on is that we clearly have different
beliefs in what is a believable and/or acceptable explination.

I will say that I do realize that some people are using drop
tanks and it would be best not to leave them high and dry.
That is why I think GT should have them as an optional rule.]

Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:54:02 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com
>I don't want to change anything, but to accomidate all canon.  Despite what
>G:T already's ditched, I'm still there.  Black Globes have a far worse
>implication than drop tanks and have their own problems, too.  I don't want
>to drop 'em, though, nor even those bits (few they are) that displease me.  I
>just don't let em stick in my craw.

Well, First of all, if you really want to stick to canon, then
you have to stick to canon, contradictions and all.  If you are
willing to fiddle with things like black globes, jump projects,
whether drop tanks use all their fuel at once, how you
get to using antimatter at higher TLs, etc. it seems
a simpler thing to drop something that only appeared a few places
and was never explored.  (Actually, I wouldn't "drop" it,
I would make it an optional rule.  That way those who's
campaign are already set on them aren't abondoned).

I have no desire to stick with minor bits of canon
that were never really explored and have real problems. In
spite of all the other things I mentioned, we still haven't
gotten into one of the real problems with drop tanks.  They
require you to burn the fuel and store it as energy.  That
means there is no way around the "why don't you also use all
that energy for weapons" problems.

>> >Original CT (book 2? HG?) is so abstract, that it makes a look into the
>> >workings of jump drives and jump theory difficult, at best.  YMMV.
>>
>> The point is not that is this (or other situations deleted) "prove"
>> the point.  The issues is that there are a number of exmaples
>> (your antimatter one being yet another), all of which treat
>> the issue at hand one way.

>The antimatter one bursts far more than just mine (and it doesn't FTR).
>Nearly every one out there, actually.  What's your J-theory again? ;-)

Well, I've never given it.  But I do think the "fuel" is use for
fuel.  However, ships can not normally handle those kind of
throughputs.  What the jump drive has going for it is the
lanthanum grid (coil, whathever) gets grounded in jump
space, which allows you to pour the energy directly into
it without melting the reactor.

There have been a number of theories to solve the "why don't you
use all the energy for weapons" problem.  That is the one that
I think works best.

>The only credible issue you have is the economics changing the setting and
>that simply doesn't apply to the 1100s.
1130, possibly if there wasn't a 14
>year long civil war that breaks out.

No, I also have changes in balance of power, etc (see my
previous post).

Also, the change in the economics doesn't
_finish_ right away, but it does begin right away (actaully,
according the TNS, it began a dozen years before).  Those
should be years of fundamental change, which will affect
PC (if you don't ignore how the world around them works)
significantly.  It will change what people ask of them,
why they ask it of them, what they can do (both directly
using the technology and if they want to do something like
trade in the changing climate), etc.

>  Fortunately, the Rebellion, Hard Times
>and Collapse keep it from happening, though the Regency might show it.  ;-)

What you are doing is simply using one event to derail another.
Even then you should be exploring how drop tanks change the
balance of power in the rebellion (like jump-3 changed the
intersetellar wars).  Of course none of this applies to
settings were these don't apply.

>> Well, I don't agree.  Aside from the contrived feel you get
>> if you carefully arrange them to be dangerous (or whatever)
>> at exactly a certain level, and never have this change as they
>> get become more common (if they were sort of working , a lot of
>> people would be very interested in working ou the bugs), they
>> still should become derigure for miltary vessels, fast couriers,
>> etc.  To the point that much of the plot should involve the
>> shifts in power balance and responses vis a vis the Zhodani
>> (and others).

>Even if you're right (and you're not IMO), how is that bad?  Things should
>grow and develop and change like that.  That's what technology does.

Well, this is, IMO, the only real arguement I can see.  If you
decided that focusing your setting on the introduction of drop
tank technology is what you want to do, then you get around the fundamental
change in the setting issue.  You still have the "why don't you use jump
energy for weapons".

I think a lot of people think that there are more interested things
that can be done, and a lot of people feel they wanted to move
to a B5 kind of situation, they would play B5, and there is still
the "jump energy for weapons" problem.  However, this
is a judgement which is up to Author/GM.  If that is what they
want to do...  But in the end, the current
approach of introducing them, but have them have no other impact
other than a toy for PCs doesn't really work.

>The economics have never been fleshed out enough for this
>to be considered anyways.

Well, not quite.  The kinds of ships you interacted with, the
cost of cargo, etc. all change enough to be notice, even
under MT.  Additionally, GT does, in fact, flesh out the
economics.

>We've hardly had a
>definitive look at every ship in the 3I, at any date.

We have definately been presented with what are suppose to
be the common types.  And if the introduction of drop
tanks mean that the price of shipping drops (for example), then it
does affect the PCs.

>> If you say, "Oh, they just happen to be to dangerous for
>> anyone but PC and there is nothing that even the hordes of
>> IMperial scientists can do about it" my answer is both
>> "yuk" and that it really doesn't fully solve the problem
>> they present.

>It's good that's not what I say, then.  :-)  If there are some notable
>accidents with them, there will be that much more a delay in widespread
>confidence (and thus use) of them.

That might buy you a year or two.  Maybe less since they are
suppose to be in use in the interior without incident now....

>Their implications are not what you make them out to be, though the economic
>ones *could* be.

But those implications have to be believable
or suspension of disbelief is damaged.

>It's not going to be "hey, lets' all switch to
>drop tank ships, first have r&d design us some ships.

That has been done.  TNS presented them with working prototypes
and stated they had been in use for a dozen years.

>  nevermind the 27 point
>stock drop upon our announcement.  Then let's convert our entire fleet over,
>despite the fact they may be dangerous and lose us more money than we gain."
>That's ludicrous.   You have to be setting up a straw man.

Careful.  The only strawman I see is here.  I have never argued
they would appear overnight.  I said they would introduce a
period of introduction which would be a period of change.

>the basic setting of G:T (1120)
>should be safe, giving it a few decades for the changeover by the large bulk
>haulers (almost exclusively megacorp).

No.  It doesn't take decades to build a ship, let alone convert
and existing one to drop tanks.  (Esp since there is a ship
yard supposedly already set up to do it).  Those are the
kind of timescales you need to research the technology, not
implement it.  What is more, even if it did, it leaves
you in trap where you can't advance the timeline without
having face all the problems we discussed.

In GT they are suppose to have been in use in the interior
29 years and in the Marches for over a decade.  That is more
than enough time for shipping along the main trade routes
to go over to them and invalidate Free Trader, change the
basic cost of shipping, and have people start facing competition
from the new ships in various areas.  It also
plenty of time for them to be the driving force for
change, derailing the plot elements that Loren seems
to be developing.

It also cause real problems with the "using jump fuel for
weapons" problem (we really need a name for that :-)

>> The problem
>> is that they should be the revolutionary change of the decade in
>> the Imperium.  You should see the shipping changing from a "you
>
>I'll give you decades, but not 1.

I dont' know of any GM who would be happy with the idea that his
campaign can only cover one year.

>  10 years maybe if there wasn't opposition,
>but there appears to be significant opposition to the implementation and
>usage of drop-tanks to the Imperial periphery that could well delay it to
>even beyond 50 (by publically discrediting drop tanks to the bureaucracy,
>public, or nobility, regardless of the actual performance).

I don't agree.  The change in economics means that there are
also powerful interests in favor of them.  All oppostion is
going to mean is that the fight betweent these powerful
interests is going to have an even greater in impact on
the setting.  Corps are going line up one way or another,
political factions and nobles are going to line up, PC will
get hired for jobs to support stop, poeple will attempt to
influence current trade and revenues to strengthen/weaken
a particular side, ships will be attacked, etc.

>I haven't seen Far Trader yet, but a "Drop Tank addendum" or "Far Trader vol
>2" shouldn't require herculean efforts.

It will, you will have rebuild the system from the bottom up.

>  The sky isn't going to fall in if
>G:T adopts drop tanks, David.

You seem awfully willing accept that if you wave your hands,
there won't be any problems, even with things that you haven't
even seen.  For my part, these hand waves just seem shallow,
unconvincing, and clearly contrived.

>> It's like some discovered a way to do jump-12 and nobody cared...
>
>Hardly.

I think so.  It will mean that jump-6 ships will be the rule,
rather than jump-2 or so like it is now....

>> >  Their operation is
>> >something intended as innovative, but hardly with a clear advantage to it's
>> >usage, especially if there seems to be some danger to the ship their used
>on
>> >(as the TNS entry indicates).
>>
>> Well, my take was that is was sabatage.  There had been
>
>Your take.  You're not a megacorp board member or stock holder who stands to
>lose a whole lot (MCr, his job, possibly his entire life).  You're not
>Vilani, either, you Terran you.  That's how it was presented to us, but not
>necessarily how it actually had to be.  A suspicious megacorp exec w/ one
>hand on his neck could see it differently, but much less a bean counter at
>the bottom.
>
>> the explosions at the shipyard and their hadn't been troubles
>> in the interior.  Even if you don't agree, the article doesn't
>> invoke a fundamental limitation, but instead simple quality
>> control neglegence on the part of General shipyards.  The
>> fact that this problem hadn't come up in the previous 12 years
>> indicates that it isn't a fundamental problem.  Not are there
>> any rules (from memory) that say they are dangerous.
>
>Well in reality, because that was in the first batch of TNS entries in JTAS
>2.  lol.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you going to back to the
arguement that the TNS entries and rules should be changed
to make them arbitrarily (and unalterably) dangerous? Like
I said before, yuck.

Or are you arguing that they were meant to be arbitrarily
dangerous (yuck again) but, for some unknown reason, they
decided to say that had been in use for a dozen years
in the interior, refered the incident as quality control
instead of fundamental problems (again, inexplicitly),
 and "forgot" to put any rules for them being dangerous?
My response to that is indeed "lol".

You have one incident, that is not in any one ascribed to
fudnamental problems, also mentions there use elsewhere
without fundamental problems, and when presented in the
rules not rules are given for fundamental problems. I
have a hard time reading that as saying it was intended
they have fundamental problems.

>> In fact, the TNS entries state that they _are_ being used for
>> commerical purposes in the core ("for the last dozen years") and
>> the author himself felt they should have a radical change
>> in shipping ("the dawn of a new era of commerce").

>Reread the TNS entry.  That was from the press release by Tukera and General.
> It's propaganda.  I'm sure they want to make themselves look revolutionary
>and ushering in the "dawn of a new era of commerce."  It makes good
>advertising copy.  I know you're not that gullible.  Are you?

The author (the real one) that wrote the entry thought that it
would be a credible claim.  And since it is true, it was.

>> >C'mon.  That's just silly.  Do your PCs run a shipyard?  Do they get custom
>> >designs commissioned?  By a starport even capable of doing drop tanks?
>>
>> Gee, maybe they have a far trader and have to worry about competing
>> with them?  It invalidates the assumptions made, for example, in

>That is a strawman, pure and simple. Not in the lifespan of your campaign
>(presuming you don't run generational decade long campaigns, which I suppose
>is possible).

Hogwash.  The idea that it takes decades is just absurd.  Why
would it?

>> the excelent book on economics, Fat Trader.  Or if you are running
>> an military ops campaign, the presence of drop tanks should make
>> a big difference.

>Only if the IN funds the ship designs.  As Real Life shows, it's far too
>often actual effectiveness takes a back seat to political and economic
>considerations.

You have got to be kidding.  Corps run on the bottom line.  They
are going _jump_ at something that affects it.  The Imperium
isn't going to ingnore something that give them the edge just
becuase they don't like new things (why do you think they have
all those research stations).

>> Even if it didn't affect them directly, it changes
>> the background a lot (do pirates have to attack stations, some
>> have argued this would indeed be the death of piracy).  It will
>> change the balance of power with the Zhondani.  Maybe
>> you don't think the background matters if doesn't change
>> how the PC jump to the next system.  I do.

>More strawmen?

Gary.  Knock off the strawman comments!  You have been twisting
my arguements to things I didn't intend to be able to do this.
For example...

> You're not trying hard enough.  Pirates aren't an invading
>force who are going to use planet busters.

I never said this!  I said that the claim is that shipping will
now come in predetermined locations that are now easier to
protect (the pirate has to attack a station to get at the
ship).


[More rationalizations about how it won't change things for the
PCs.  For me, trying to not see the implication of the technology
you are introducing is a sure way to a hokey background.  If you
want to have a realistic setting that matches the technologies
in use, you have to try and see how it would affect it, not
try and come up with rationalization about why it wouldn't
have any effect].


[More stuff invoking the rebellion, etc. as delaying events,
see above...]

>> I guess we see it differently, most of these arguements seem
>> weak and unbelievalbe to me.  To me they are the sort of
>> shallow rationalizations that cause me to avoid AD&D.,

>LOL.  The famous last ditch defense.  "It's why I avoid AD&D! Really."

> You
>should critically analyze your own arguments before you make them.  I'm
>gunning them down w/o trying very hard.

From where you sit.  I'm trying to be polite and cast this
as a different point of view.  To be honeest, what I really
believe if that your rationalization are shallow and not
credible and are the same sort of thing that gave rise to
hokey settings.  I though it would be better to invoke
AD&D as a hokey setting rather than Virus.  But your comments
on how I'm arguing my points is getting me to now care...

>> >  It's ancients
>> >technology and Clarke's Law applies.  Black globes have big problems on
>their
>> >own, and transfering the energy to jump dooms most jump theories.  Economic
>> >changes.  You could have a beef here.
>>
>> Black globes are indeed ancient techology that the Imperium doesn't
>> understand (and is only able to copy, they don't even know if
>> they are using them for the intended purpose).  This isn't true
>> of drop tanks.

>I was talking about jump projectors, not black globes.  Why did you bring up
>jump projectors anyways?

Reread the quoted text.  Black globes are mentioned.  Jump
projectors aren't.  That is why I talked about them.


>> Centuries is absurd.  Sure it will take decades.  Decades in
>> which they are driving force for change (as I mention above),
>> unless you want to divert the timeline to deal with those
>> decades of change you have issues....

>Progress at last.  At least you admit it will take decades.  That's plural.  ]

Don't get your hopes up.  A few decades to mostly finish.  (A lot
of the change will occur in one or two.)  But even if it takes
5, this will be the _end_ of a period of change that will
start as soon as they are introduced.

>Noone
>forces you to deal with any issues.

No, I can just have a background that doesn't make sense (yuck).

>  Does anyone here think life will be like
>it's portrayed in Traveller?  It's 20th century people in space.

I think Traveller is a setting for which I can play without
having my suspension of disbelief too bruised.

>A new technology or implementation of technology *should* change
>the economics of the Imperium.

Finally..

>I'm not familiar w/ Far Trader, as I don't
>yet have it (though I now firmly intend to get it), so i am unaware of the
>impact drop tanks would have.  Assuming it completely thrashes it,  Far
>Trader is of use for the pre-drop tank proliferated Imperium.  Would the
>authors be willing to make a companion volume dealing w/ the "after?"  There
>are those who don't like randomly discarding the bits of canon that don't
>offend them (for whatever reason).  I'd like to hear from the authors that
>it's completely thrashed by drop tanks, first, though, until I get it and can
>read it myself.

I do believe it would be better to make them an optional rule
rather than drop them entirely.  Free trader is a problem
because it assumes it knows the how the bulk of freight is
shipped and then fits the PC into that setting.  At best
you might get a Pyramid article on how adapt it (if it could
be done in that short of a space).
>
>
>Gary
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:54:15 -0800 (PST)
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: New weapon for GURPS:Traveller
>
>Doug Sinclair writes:
>>
>> I'm guessing that Cf-252 would be a good collapsing-round candidate.  It
>> decays by spontanious fission, though its neutron cross-section is quite
>> small.
>
>Hm..no, I think the most important aspect is the neutron capture
>cross-section,
>whether those captures produce fissions or simply a higher number element, and
>how many neutrons are produced per fission.  You can always add a neutron
>source.  I think I went through the list a while back and decided that there
>were no californium isotopes which were suitable for nuclear weapons (I think
>there were some americium isotopes which were), but this was _many_ years ago,
>so take it with a grain or two of salt.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:09:15 -0600
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace and
>garbage)
>
>SD Mooney wrote:
>>
>>  "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> writes:
>>
>> >>Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with
>>humans.
>>
>> >I like it all except for the above bit. There is no reason to believe that
>> >visual phenomena can cause psychological problems in otherwise normal
>> >humans (unless that visual phenomena contains actual symbolic content, like
>> >seeing your loved ones being killed).
>> >
>> >However, if you are of the mind to believe that visual phenomena *can*
>> >cause psychological problems, then why can't TTL-15 holographic technology
>> >replicate it for use as a psyops weapon?
>>
>> Except maybe your brain can't handle looking at the field? Of cause, it
>> could just be the physical proximity to J-Space that causes problems....
>>
>I would expect that any problems caused by viewing the jump field would
>be based on the premise that the jump field exposes the senses to
>non-Euclidean geometries.  Or, from the C'thulhu for President '92
>campaign song (sung to the tune of "Chattanooga Choo-Choo"):
>
>You'll see an ancient sunken city where the angles are wrong
>You'll see the fourth dimension if you stay very long....
>
>I can understand how that could be...disorienting (even without the
>Lovecraftian horrors dwelling therein).
>
>
>> Can't remember if the psychological problems are canon..
>
>I don't know.  However, I did add a quirk to my T4 main character:
>viewing jumpspace nauseates him, due to vertigo.  As Colonel Erik von
>Oldenburg is an Imperial Baron, who commands an Imperial Army Jump Troop
>regiment, his tendency to seek a bit of privacy during the transition to
>jump actually seems a bit odd to his peers.
>>
>> Dom
>>
>> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>> You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>- --
>- ------
>|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>|JOLT|
>|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
>|    |
>- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 21:22:05 -0500
>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
>
>Juliean Galak wrote:
>
>> At 05:06 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >You missed the part about the grid.  The Natural shape of a jump field is a
>> >spheroid around the coil.  Larger coil = bigger spheroid.  This becomes
>>cost
>> >ineffective for ships that are really long because you'd need a coil large
>> >enough
>> >to encompass the longest part of the ship.  To cut down on expensive coil
>> size,
>> >you introduce jump grids which squish the spheroid shape into a tighter
>>skin
>> >at an
>> >arbitrary distance from the hull (1-2 meters).  Thus the unification of
>> >coils and
>> >grids.  You always need the coil, but grids make best use of the field.
>>
>> Why not just build spherical starships?  It's the most efficient shape for
>> space, anyway (least surface area to armor, per unit volume, very strong
>> structurally, streamlined..)  and negates the need to pay for a lanthanum
>> grid.  Just use a coil...
>
>Well, because they're spherical... Spherical ships have their own
>problems.  For
>starters, spinal weapons prefer needle shapes.  Additionally, the
>expensive part
>is the coil which generates a specific volume.  The grid is relatively cheap
>compared to the coil.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:40:07 -0600
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
>
>For those of you who wonder why Imperial economic interests might be
>reluctant to adopt drop tanks, I refer you to a similar situation,
>involving the De Havilland Comet, the first operational jet-propelled
>airliner.  The problems encountered by the Comet can be seen at:
>
>http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/comet.htm
>
>I would draw your attention to the passage in which, in response to
>several unexplained Comet crashes, all Comets were grounded, and orders
>were cancelled.
>
>- --
>- ------
>|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>|JOLT|
>|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
>|    |
>- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:58:36 -0700
>From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> (by way of Christopher
>Thrash <thrash@io.com>)
>Subject: GT: Ship Insurance
>
>Chris-
>	I saw your TML post about insurance.  I'm not posting there
>because for some reason I can't get my jmaclean account subscribed to the
>TML.
>	Anyway, the short answer with insurance rates is that the cost of
>insurace equals the expected value of the loss plus a small risk premium
>which is the banks compensation for accepting the risk.  Given the
>Imperium's low interest rates this won't be huge.  The big unknown is how
>likely ships are to be damaged or lost in GT.  I'll leave this up to you.
>Whatever you decide on, I suggest that you use the interest rate figures
>for different risk levels in the stocks section as the risk premium.
>Then add on whatever the probability of loss per annum is and this gives
>the total percentage of ship price that must be paid per year in
>premiums.  Premiums will go down over time as the value of the ship declines.
>
>	You mention the bank's insurance.  Readers should be reminded
>that the fact that the bank has made provisions for some portion of the
>ships it holds mortgages on being lost in no way affects the characters'
>responsibility for paying the mortgage if their ship is in fact lost.  Even
>if the ship is an expanding cloud of plasma, they still owe the money.
>Of course, since the Imperium likely has bankruptcy laws they will get
>some relief....
>
>- -John
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:11:43 -0500
>From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: GT equivalents to HG weapons/armor
>
>Howdy TMLers::
>
>I've been semi-lurking here for a while.  Like many people, I was an early
>Traveller player (my second RPG) and I played up to MT, but I got away from
>it for a while in favor of GURPS.  It took GT to bring me back to the fold.
>
>Anyway, I've started playing with large ships using the GT ship design
>system (with a few emendations from G:Ve.)  I just recently acquired CT
>Book 9 and I'm trying to convert the Ghalahk-class armored cruiser to GT.
>(I think it's the one really good looking ship in Fighting ships, and it
>shows up in GT art as well.)
>
>In the course of this effort, two questions have come up.
>
>1) Has anyone has figured out reasonable GT equivalents to the standardized
>High Guard spinal mounts?  What would be a fair rating for the spinal
>mounts presented in GT?
>
>2) Are there any straightforward ways to convert the armor ratings from HG
>into GT damage resistance?  Likewise meson screens and nuke dampers.
>
>Thanks in advance for any help.
>
>PS: I'll try to post a draft of the cruiser this weekend; I just need to
>pick up Star Mercs for the fusion guns.
>
>Tom Schoene
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 22:21:54 -0500
>From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
>Subject: Helix class robot
>
>For all of the Freefall fans on the list, here is a classic Book 8
>design:
>
>Helix 93504-52-MM225-P853 Cr 315545 739 Kg
>Fuel = 200 liters, Cargo = 120 liters, Duration = 23.8 days, Tl = 12
>100/250 (cloth)
>2 med arms
>2 visual sensors (+2 Active IR)
>2 audio sensors
>regional radio
>mechanical tool kit
>electronic tool kit
>electronic circuit protection
>cargo handling-2
>valet-2
>electronics-1
>mechanical-1
>
>Comming soon, MT/Hard Times design for Pop Rivet's truck, with JATO...
>
>Doug
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:38:50 -0800
>From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: lasers in atmosphere
>
>>I have a problem with high penetration lasers in an atmosphere; above a
>>certain power level they'd turn the air into plasma which would be
>>extremely hard to shine through. GGG has info on this and to me it seems to
>>rule out lasers as tankbusters. (I'm well aware that high pen lasers are
>>serious Canon stuff and I wouldn't want to lose them but can somebody come
>>up with a good handwave why they should work?).
>There's a lot of parameter space to play around with with pulse duration -
>a 100 Mj laser with a 1 second pulse, for example, is probably OK. The
>1 second pulse would hurt armour penetration, but not damage, I think.
>
>On the other hand - it's not at all bad if lasers lose some penetration
>in atmospheres; it's another reason for people to put plasma/fusion weapons
>on tanks instead of big honking lasers. No great loss to Canon. Starship
>lasers
>will still be threatening, but not dominate the battlefield or dominate
>ortillery (also good.)
>
>Bruce
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:14:04 -0600
>From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
>Subject: Re: Jumpspace psychosis, again (was Re: Droptanks, jumpspace
>andgarbage)
>
>SD Mooney wrote:
>
>>>>Staring at the jump interface can cause psychological problems with
>humans.
>>>
>>>I like it all except for the above bit. There is no reason to believe that
>>>visual phenomena can cause psychological problems in otherwise normal
>>>humans (unless that visual phenomena contains actual symbolic content,
>like
>>>seeing your loved ones being killed).
>>
>>Except maybe your brain can't handle looking at the field? Of cause, it
>>could just be the physical proximity to J-Space that causes problems....
>>
>>Can't remember if the psychological problems are canon.
>
>
>I don't know if they are either. I know jump *sickness* is, but that has to
>do with actual physical contact with jumpspace.
>
>
>and BlackICE later wrote:
>
>>I would expect that any problems caused by viewing the jump field would
>>be based on the premise that the jump field exposes the senses to
>>non-Euclidean geometries.
>
>
>Well, the problem with this is that the senses will only by exposed to
>reflected or emitted visible light from the 3-dimensional manifestations of
>these weird geometries. There is no reason to believe that non-Euclidean
>geometry would cause an otherwise normal person difficulties to a degree
>that could be classified as a psychological disorder. In fact, there is no
>reason to believe that a person would be able to see into the 4th dimension,
>simply because our eyes are not built to see into it any more than they are
>capable of seeing gamma rays, x-rays, or radio waves. Just because we can
>conceive of something doesn't mean we can actually sense it.
>
>Of course, all this depends on how you define psychological problems when
>saying that looking at jumpspace causes them. :-)
>
>Vertigo I can believe. But when I read "Staring at the jump interface can
>cause psychological problems with humans. ..." I think of schizophrenia,
>personality disorders, or mood disorders, and so on and I just don't see how
>it could happen. To me it's like saying "Staring at the jump interface can
>give you the a nasty flu." There simply isn't a mechanism there to cause it.
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #388
>**********************************
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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 393



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Table Top Fusion: Details at MSNBC
Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
Moons/Double Planets (was: max accel)
Re: Garbage
Re: Garbage
Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)
G:T -- TAS Membership
Re: Rules of War
Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite
Re: Lawyers
Re: grand unified theory
Re: Lawyers
OT: Lawyers
Re: Lawyers
Re: Lawyers
Re: Moons
Re: OT: Lawyers
Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Aurora  (was max accel)
Re: OT: Lawyers
Re: Languages in Traveller
To Dream of Chaos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:52:20 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Table Top Fusion: Details at MSNBC

If anyone wants details on how "table top fusion"
works, the full story is at the following URL:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/254801.asp

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:59:31 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards

Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:40:07 -0600, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

>For those of you who wonder why Imperial economic interests might be
>reluctant to adopt drop tanks, I refer you to a similar situation,
>involving the De Havilland Comet, the first operational jet-propelled
>airliner.  The problems encountered by the Comet can be seen at:
>
>http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/comet.htm
>
>I would draw your attention to the passage in which, in response to
>several unexplained Comet crashes, all Comets were grounded, and orders
>were cancelled.

Actually it argues the other way.  It shows how, if the change
is an important one, it will go forward.  There was never any
inclination to abondon jet airliners and it driving force
was to keep going until they found the problem.  However,
in either case the stuation is limited for Traveller because
drop tanks are suppose to have been in use in the interior for
a dozen years without incident and the TNS entry is protrayed
as quality control and not design flaw.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:09:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Moons/Double Planets (was: max accel)

<Leonard Erikson>
Please note that Earth's moon is an aberration. A typcal moon for an
Earth sized planet will be more like Phobos or Deimos (the moons of
Mars). Big enough to provide *some* protection, but not much. Rocks a
few miles across. A few heavy meson gun shots and the crust will be
well cracked and of little protection for a meson site.

Also, they'll be a hell of a lot *closer*.

Terra/Luna is more of a "double planet" and thus a *rare* configuration.
</Leonard>

Actually, the most recent models (reported in Nature and IIRC
Astrophysical Letters) indicate that double planets will not be as rare as
was previously thought.  Early solar system models now suggest that
relatively "late and large" impacts will be quite common, thus allowing
time for accretion before the impact "lops off" a large moon.

I was also interested to read that new solar system formation models seem
to indicate that planets form in a much more chaotic manner than our
relatively orderly solar system would indicate.  That is, gas giants don't
really have a very strong tendency to be formed in the outer system, and
planet distances don't follow Titius-Bode relations.

(Yes, I keep bringing these articles up.  It's cuz I like the freedom it
gives to star system design...)

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:11:01 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:35:25 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>I don't agree.  If they exist as presented, shipping throughout
>>the Imperium should be systematically switching to them.  That
>>this doesn't happen, for no apparent reason, is odd and makes
>>the background less believable.
>
>David, what evidence do you have that this isn't happening? That it
>hasn't been mentioned anywhere? How many adventures can you think of
>where it is odd that drop tank equipped ships isn't mentioned? Most
>adventures only mention that which is immidiately relevant. Far Trader
>deals with free traders, which means _marginal_ trading.

Well, Far Trader does it in a comprehensive manner, after all,
it works up from thing like what is the trade volume between
worlds, etc.   I do think the jump-tanks would mean it
would have to reworked.

I also think, that if they exist there are quite a number of
places where it wuold be odd that a drop tanks ship wasn't
used.  It also, IMO, has a ripple affect and the gains in
losses in economics due to them should be affecting who
the PC see running things, etc.  It also means that PC should,
if they travel on commercial ships, be leaving from jump
stations.  What happens there?  Does it eliminate piracy
like Ian (?) claims?   Do the PC get hired by General
Shipyards because they are rich from them or by Oberlindes
because they are poor?  Has GS become so powerful that they
monopolize shipping to the point that even Free Traders have
to cowtow to them?  Is the threat of a Zhodani war gone
becuase the Imperium has them?  Do the Sword Wolrds not
try and take back the border worlds for the same reason?
It the PCs are running a trader, how does drop tanks
ships affect their competition?

If you think about it (and people will) questions are
going to come up.  If they aren't dealt with, it will
seem odd and make the setting hokey.

They also have the problem in that they firmly establish
that jump fuel can be converted to power and should be
usable for other purposes.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:11:01 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:35:25 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>I don't agree.  If they exist as presented, shipping throughout
>>the Imperium should be systematically switching to them.  That
>>this doesn't happen, for no apparent reason, is odd and makes
>>the background less believable.
>
>David, what evidence do you have that this isn't happening? That it
>hasn't been mentioned anywhere? How many adventures can you think of
>where it is odd that drop tank equipped ships isn't mentioned? Most
>adventures only mention that which is immidiately relevant. Far Trader
>deals with free traders, which means _marginal_ trading.

Well, Far Trader does it in a comprehensive manner, after all,
it works up from thing like what is the trade volume between
worlds, etc.   I do think the jump-tanks would mean it
would have to reworked.

I also think, that if they exist there are quite a number of
places where it wuold be odd that a drop tanks ship wasn't
used.  It also, IMO, has a ripple affect and the gains in
losses in economics due to them should be affecting who
the PC see running things, etc.  It also means that PC should,
if they travel on commercial ships, be leaving from jump
stations.  What happens there?  Does it eliminate piracy
like Ian (?) claims?   Do the PC get hired by General
Shipyards because they are rich from them or by Oberlindes
because they are poor?  Has GS become so powerful that they
monopolize shipping to the point that even Free Traders have
to cowtow to them?  Is the threat of a Zhodani war gone
becuase the Imperium has them?  Do the Sword Wolrds not
try and take back the border worlds for the same reason?
It the PCs are running a trader, how does drop tanks
ships affect their competition?

If you think about it (and people will) questions are
going to come up.  If they aren't dealt with, it will
seem odd and make the setting hokey.

They also have the problem in that they firmly establish
that jump fuel can be converted to power and should be
usable for other purposes.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:13:46 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)

Leonard Erickson writes:
> I'm going to be taking a trip in a week or so. On Amtrak. I'll be in a
> "standard bedroom", so I'll try to note the dimensions. The "Deluxe"
> bedroom includes a sink, toilet and shower, so it's sort of equivalent
> to a "standard" stateroom in Traveller, right down to double occupancy.
> I'll see if I can get a look at one of those.
> 
> Remember that some routes take 3-4 days, so it's not *too* far from
> jump. I'm only taking the first leg (8 hours) of the Portland to
> Chicago route, which is 2-3 days. 

I've done a couple of Amtrak trips: 24 hours in a "standard", 
SF Bay Area to Seattle, and a cross-country (4 day?) run from 
NY to SF, the first night in a standard and the rest in a 
deluxe.

From memory, I'd guess the standard room at 5'x10' (one HG
deckplan ton, two squares), and the deluxe at 10'x10' (4
squares, which is pretty common in Traveller deckplans). 

Incidentally, both rooms offer over-and-under bunks; the 
bunks (at least the lower) are somewhat wider on the deluxe.
In the standard, even a honeymooning couple aren't going 
to share a bunk for sleeping - other activities, sure. ;-) 
In the deluxe, you'll want to split up for sleeping if 
either one of you is prone to nocturnal reorientation maneuvers.

Both types are pretty impressive in their economical use of 
space, but a week in a standard sounds pretty brutal. You'd 
probably spend most of your time in a lounge car, retreating
to the room only to sleep - hence a starship designed along 
those lines would have more common spaces and smaller cabins,
but probably a very similar total amount of space. 

I'm something of an antisocial animal, so I think I'd go nuts - 
having my breakfast and dinner at a table shared with complete 
strangers is my absolute limit. "I gotta get outta here. But 
there's PEOPLE out there... AAARGH!" 

The visual appearance of J-space becomes VERY relevant if you 
spend time in a room that small: you will want to look at 
ANYTHING other than the inside of the room, so when you get 
tired of reading and socializing, you'll look out the window.
On a train, that means your neck gets sore and your eyes get 
tired of flicking back and forth to follow the scenery. 
Nivenesque No-See-Um hyperspace would get me out of the room,
drinking cheap whiskey, and talking to people pretty quick.

The deluxe sleeping compartment is quite a bit better, and 
I can envision spending a week in it. Do they actually have
individual showers? I seem to recall shared showers on the 
lower deck of the car and the rooms on the upper, but it's 
been a while. 

Keep in mind that in Traveller, you've got the week in jump
plus a day or so of maneuver on each end. Plus, you might be
going more than one hop - you might get to spend a few days 
off-ship, but you know you're going right back into that 
little box pretty soon. And if you're a crewbeing rather than
a passenger, that little box is going to be your home for 
a year or more.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:13:09 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: G:T -- TAS Membership

Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:07:06 -0800 (PST), "Brannon W. Boren"
<brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

>Is the point cost of a TAS membership indicated anywhere?
>I figure it should be about a 10 point advantage, but I can't seem to
>find it anywhere. I notice that none of the example characters in Far
>Trader (awesome book, by the way) are TAS members.

I think in GT you just buy it with cash.  However, I had it as
a 10 point advantage in my campiagns and it worked.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 16:33:53 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Rules of War

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> 
> > Can anyone point me to some published references if there are any,
> > please?
> 
> Imperial Encyclopedia at 28, 49.
> Striker, Rule Book 2 -- Advanced Rules, Rule 78, at 43-44.
> 
> --Glenn

Or, if you would prefer a real-world reference on the subject of Laws of
War, try Army Field Manual (FM) 27-10, _The Law of Land Warfare_. 
Useful stuff, especially in my profession (I'm an interrogator).

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 16:39:48 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite

Shawn Campbell wrote:
> 
> Of course, I meant jump and not dump. :)
> 
> > I Wrote:
> >IMTU it's possible to dump and not actually go anywhere. There doesn't have
> 
Oh.  And here I was, thinking that you were talking about the disorderly
state of my apartment.... ;-)

> Shawn Campbell
> electric-stitch@w-link.net
> IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:45:37 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Lawyers

> From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>

> ...that reminds me, what does the Judicial system of the Imperium look like?
> Is it a separate branch?  Or is this something that is included in the
> duties of nobles?  Are cases decided by the local nobles at hand, with
> appeals to going before higher nobles (possibly with the Emperor being akin
> to the Supreme Court)?  Or are appeals even allowed?
> 
> Are defendants presumed innocent until proven guilty, or vice versa?

This discussion comes up on the list from time to time.  If I can find
my previous writing on the subject (which was fairly extensive, but
doesn't seem to be on this computer), I'll repost it.

Briefly, Imperial justice is carried out by selected nobles who receive
the title of "Lord Judge" or "Imperial Judge" in addition to their other
titles.  Selected means appointed by the appropriate person.  The
Emperor appoints archdukes and sector dukes to be Lords Judicial. 
Sector dukes may appoint lower Lords Judicial as they see fit, subject
to the consent of the archduke and Emperor.  The decisions of lower
Imperial Judges may be appealed to a higher Lord Judge, with the Emperor
sitting as the highest Imperial Judge and the end of the appellate
process.  The Emperor in practice doesn't have time both to play judge
and run an empire, so he or she typically appoints an Imperial High
Court, consisting of some very high ranking nobles with judicial
inclinations, scholarly backgrounds, and plenty of money (to make them
appear less easily corrupted).  

I won't try to recreate what I've previously written about the
jurisdiction (subject matter; civil/criminal; trial/appellate; etc.) of
various courts until I've looked through a few diskettes.  

- --Glenn

(who's glad to read that he's not the only underemployed lawyer on the
list)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:23:17 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory

> From: Joseph Coles <coles@evtc.com>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #386

> I like this description.  Will this be aggreed upn by both camps in the coil
> vs grid debate?  

> individual craft.  Now to make economic sense, the coil must be much more
> expensive than the grid - more lanthanum, or a purer form, or a rarer
> isotope?   

Maybe the coil is made of zuchai crystals.  I've always wondered what
they were, so maybe it turns out that they're a rare isotope of
lanthanum?  See Marc Miller, "Amber Zone:  Crystals from Dinom," 2 Best
of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society 40, 40 ("An emergency
construction order from the Imperial Navy for jump drives caught Quadric
Industries unprepared as the corporation had not yet taken delivery on a
shipment of vital zuchai crystal.")  

I think Starship Operators' Manual incorporates zuchai crystals.  If
they're lanthanum, they can stop being mysterious zapotron rays (tm).  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:49:31 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Lawyers

> From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>

> Are defendants presumed innocent until proven guilty, or vice versa?

That's a good question.  To the extent that the Imperium wants that air
of legitimacy and the active consent of the governed, it will adhere to
the rule of innocent until proven guilty, will notify defendants of the
charges and evidence against them, and will have public trials.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:56:27 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: OT: Lawyers

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

> I should have said "varied" instead of "complicated."  I think that exactly

I think varied and complicated are both appropriate, as legal systems
tend to be both (as a lawyer, my work largely revolves around getting
results through the varied and complicated California and federal court
systems).  

> Of course, Dukes and Archdukes probably have a great deal of leeway in
> particular refinements they wish to make.  

I agree.

> I've actually been drafting something this week on these topics, and may
> post something soon.

Great!  I look forward to seeing it.  If you (or anyone else) can search
Traveller or Xboat mailing list archives, see if you can find what I
wrote about it.  I don't remember when, but think it was probably 1994
or 1995.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:03:51 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Lawyers

<Glenn M. Goffin wrote>

> This discussion comes up on the list from time to time.  If I can find
> my previous writing on the subject (which was fairly extensive, but
> doesn't seem to be on this computer), I'll repost it.
<snip of a great summary>

I would appreciate it, and thanks for the brief summary as well.  (I'm
currently trying to hobble together a decent campaign...and I'm relatively
new to the list...so I keep bringing up topics that have already been
covered.  So far everbody has been rather patient, and quite
helpful...thanks!)

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:52:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Lawyers

At 02:43 PM 4/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>...that reminds me, what does the Judicial system of the Imperium look like?
>Is it a separate branch?  Or is this something that is included in the
>duties of nobles?  Are cases decided by the local nobles at hand, with
>appeals to going before higher nobles (possibly with the Emperor being akin
>to the Supreme Court)?  Or are appeals even allowed?
>
>Are defendants presumed innocent until proven guilty, or vice versa?

Warning: All this is IMTU!

Imperial crimes are investigated by the Ministry of Justice, and tried by a
panel of nobles from the affected area.

Any crime committed on a member world is prosecuted by that world's
authorities.  There is an expectation of fairness, in that trials with
pre-determined outcomes are likely to draw imperial attention sooner or
later.  The nature of the court process is up to the planet's culture.

Which brings up extradition.  In most cases, when a criminal is recognized
and apprehended on a world other than the one where the offense occurred,
it's a simple matter for the arresting world to send the suspect back for
trial.  But it can get messy.. what if the second world considers the
expected punishment to be inhumane?  Or if they don't even consider the
offense to be a crime!

This is where the bounty hunter comes in.  There will be some liberal
worlds that turn into havens for fugitives.  Not necessarily low law
worlds, but places that consider the rest of the universe unenlightened
fools when it comes to law and order.  These worlds might not appreciate
outsiders grabbing people for "illegal" trials.  Interesting adventure
ideas there...
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:53:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Moons

At 04:16 PM 4/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson writes:
><snipped>
>"Terra/Luna is more of a "double planet" and thus a *rare* 
>configuration."
>
>	Hmmmmm. This may well be true (I assume that it is 
>	for MTU), but unless you have access to astonomical
>	data that is denied to the rest of us you might
>	consider inserting the word "probably" (or some
>	such) before *rare*.

More evidnece that Leonard is in fact a Vilani scout working for Marc.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 15:08:24 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

> >         There would, however be abudant public defenders on various worlds,
> > depending on whether their legal systems are largely based on Solomani
> > tradition or not.
> 
> Uhm, I think you mean American.  If we were going by number of governments

The Solomani tradition is largely based on the American model, because
the USA dominated the United Nations government during the Interstellar
Wars.  

> I'd be interested to hear speculations on how Vilani legal processes might vary
> from Solomani systems (both Civil and Common).

DGP's Vilani and Vargr gives a good flavor of Vilani culture.  Vilani
culture is highly regulated.  I'd expect that legal procedures would be
drafted in excruciating detail -- with the result that people would
avoid the court system if possible, by resorting to arbitration,
mediation, ombudsmen, etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 10:38:37 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite

>>>>
Shawn Campbell wrote:

> I have placed my ideas about jump space as a FAQ at
> http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/traveller/jumpfaq.html 
>
> Please feel free to read and comment. I realize this isn't canon (but
I
> tried keeping close to HG/MT) and won't make everyone happy, but you
might
> see something you like to add to your own theory. I am also
interested in
> input to make my theory any better.

I sort of skimmed it and have a general question, not necessarily
related
to your pages.

What is the minimum distance of a jump?

Could I jump as little as one meter?  If say, I didn't want to be
located for
a week?

This would be enormously beneficial to smugglers and other criminals
providing
a
redoubt, as well as misleading authorities who may be chasing them, if
possible.

- - --
Bloo
>>>>
I enjoyed reading the FAQ.  I think your use of the term Tachyon is a
bit confusing since it is different than the physics use of the term (as
an FTL particle that gets more massive the slower it gets - the closer
to it's lower speed limit of c).  I would suggest a more generic term
like "Jump particle."
It has been stated several places (including an instance on the TML
from Marc himself) that a Jump-in-place is perfectly acceptable. 
Essentially, a Jump-0 is the same as a Jump-1 except that you go less
than a parsec (including zero displacement).  My own extension of this
is that if you want to Jump fractional amounts, you use the next higher
Jump number to determine fuel costs and required drives (e.g. a Jump 1.2
would require a Jump-2 drive, and use 20% of the hull volume as fuel). 
Fractional Jumps are rarely used except for under J1 (for in-system
Jumps).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 10:56:15 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

If you are taping two Gauss Rifles together, there might be some
difficulty with interference between the magnetic fields of the two
guns.  If they were designed to go together (as in a multi-barrel VRF
Gauss Gun) they would certainly be designed so that there would not be
magnetic interference between the barrels (or perhaps only one barrel
would fire at a time).  With two regular guns taped together, there
might be cross currents that would mess things up.  A CPR type gun would
not have this problem, but a Gauss gun might.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 17:14:03 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Aurora  (was max accel)

On 03/31/99 at 09:24 PM,  Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> said:

>>>There was the Arrora (spelling) the largest transonic bomber ever built.

From what I've read Aurora is the codename for a hypothetical
hypersonic test vehicle that may or may not exist and may or may not
fly out of "Dreamland."  ;-> One speculation is that Aurora using an
unconventional engine that burns it's fuel outside the engine itself
at hypersonic speeds using the wind stream to shape an external
nozzle.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 15:16:05 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: > Re: OT: Lawyers

> "Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> > > ObTraveller: Is there such a thing as a "Public Defender" under Imperial
> > > Law?
> >
> > No, I don't think so.  Bear in mind that Imperial law doesn't have
> > anything to do with local law, other than outlawing slavery.
> 
> That depends on how much credence you give to the Imperial Constitution
> that appears in Milieu 0.  If you accept it, and I do, then the Imperium has
> an authority as broad as that of the US Congress to legislate under the
> Commerce clause of the US Constitution.

It may have the authority -- and I haven't paid much attention to Milieu
0 since I bought it -- but in my Traveller universe, it stopped
exercising it as part of Arbellatra's reforms after the Civil Wars. 
Member states tired of decades of war were inclined to remain within a
looser empire that provided for the common defense but kept its nose out
of local affairs.  

> I've recently written a couple of pages on this very topic that I will post
> to my website soon.  Its too long, and probably too dry for the non-legal
> types, to post here.

Please post the URL when it's up.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 23:34:28 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

On Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:49:28 -0500, "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:

>> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

>I think that Kenji runs a separate mailing list devoted entirely to
>discussion of languages in Traveller. 

Nope.  That's my list.  Kenji is probably our
most-linguistically-knowledgeable member, though.
 
>> So what's the 'official' language of the Imperium? Are all official
>> correspondence, TNS dispatches, Emporer's speeches, given in both Vilani
>> and Anglic forms? How about signs in the starport?

>I think canon holds that the "official" languages are Galanglic and
>Vilani, and that all official documents are in both languages -- but
>then, it could be just Galanglic.  

I don't think that Vilani is an official language, although it's
fairly widely known in the former Ziru Sirka.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:27:59 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: To Dream of Chaos

I picked up the book To Dream of Chaos at my FLGS yesterday.  I'm into
it about 55 pages and enjoying it.  It is part 2 of a trilogy though,
and I'm wishing I could find the other two.  Oh well...
The book is a bit surprising from a physical standpoint.  At 352 pages,
it is about the same dimentions as many books that are more like 250
pages.  It also feels quite a bit heavier than normal for a book it's
size.  The publicatio page says it is printed on acid-free, recycled
paper.  They type is also smaller than I am used to in pocket sized
sci-fi books.  It looks like the ratio of type size is similar to that
between 10 and 12 point fonts (I don't know what it's actual size is,
but that ratio fells about the same).
All in all, this is a dense, but good read.  It definately has the feel
of the RCES that I would expect from the othe material published by
GDW.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #393
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, April 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 394



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite
Re: To Dream of Chaos
Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
rs" <summers@alum.mit.edu> >Subject: 
Re: Drop Tanks and canon (was Re: Garbage)
R Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
Re: max accel
Re: Lawyers
Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage) 
Re: Drop Tanks and canon (was Re: Garbage) 
Re: Drop tanks (was: Garbage) 
Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:55:11 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite

>Joseph wrote:
>I enjoyed reading the FAQ.

Thanks.

> I think your use of the term Tachyon is a
>bit confusing since it is different than the physics use of the term (as
>an FTL particle that gets more massive the slower it gets - the closer
>to it's lower speed limit of c).  I would suggest a more generic term
>like "Jump particle."


I have to admit, I don't know much about tachyon. I've read a little from
the internet and saw it's use in reference to FTL, wormholes and black
holes. I will consider the use of "jump particle". I invisioned the Tachyons
as being particles that can only exist in jump space. If a field of tachyons
particles were formed around the ship, then the ship would exist in jump
space instead of normal space. I think I might look for another "techie"
word for the particles... if you think tachyon would be inappropriate. Can
you think of anything (other than the generic, "jump particle")?

>than a parsec (including zero displacement).  My own extension of this
>is that if you want to Jump fractional amounts, you use the next higher
>Jump number to determine fuel costs and required drives (e.g. a Jump 1.2
>would require a Jump-2 drive, and use 20% of the hull volume as fuel).
>Fractional Jumps are rarely used except for under J1 (for in-system
>Jumps).


This is exactly how my system works too. Everything within 1 parsec uses
jump1 worth of fuel. If the jump goes beyond 1 parsec (but not greater than
2 parsecs), it uses to jump 2 worth of fuel (even jump 1.1)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:59:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos

Joseph Kimball writes:
> I picked up the book To Dream of Chaos at my FLGS yesterday.  I'm into
> it about 55 pages and enjoying it.  It is part 2 of a trilogy though,
> and I'm wishing I could find the other two.  Oh well...

You won't.  To the best of my knowledge book 3 was never printed (GDW went out
of business instead).  Books 1 and 2 are decent (better than average for RPG
literature, which isn't saying much) but unremarkable.

> The book is a bit surprising from a physical standpoint <zzapp>
As I recall, it seems pretty typical of books from small publishers -- decent
paper quality, poor quality cover art, not very good binding.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 00:55:14 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards

RnLschaefr@aol.com wrote:
>I thought the Comets suffered from metal fatigue. In the wing roots,
>IIRC....and as passenger aircraft they never would use drop tanks
>anyway...but maybe I missed that part on "Wings" ;)

The killer was actually the rectangular windows; when combined with the
cabin pressure test (which pre-stressed them IIRC) this reduced the time to
fialure from fatigue. I have some notes from 1st and 4th year materials
Science on my Mech Eng Degree somewhere I could dig out if you want a
complete discussion.

The Comet still flies and is in limited production, but is known as the
Nimrod now, and is a military recon aircraft flown by the RAF.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 01:03:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: rs" <summers@alum.mit.edu> >Subject: 

"David P. Summers writes:

>[OK, I'm going to start trimming replies or not respond at all
>after this.  Gary is starting to tick me off....

He! He!

Makes a change from Hans ;-)

Pirates anyone?

<duck and run and hide>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:51:37 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks and canon (was Re: Garbage)

Fri, 02 Apr 1999 04:57:54 -0700, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>Has anyone suggested that drop tanks are the Traveller equivalent of
>lighter-than-air ships? Let's examine the similarities:
>
>(1) The technology is reasonably simple, and decades old.
>
>(2) If widely implemented, they would vastly change the economic
>assumptions under which trade is conducted (cf. the numerous glowing
>predictions in Popular Mechanics, etc.).
>
>(3) No one uses them (except for a few highly specialized applications)
>because of some well publicized disasters early in its history -- Akron as
>well as Hindenburg -- disasters which there is no rational reason to think
>would be repeated with modern technology.

They were abandoned because they weren't reliable.  Even without
the Hindenburg and the Akron (and everyone know that if you
used helium you didn't have that problem) the problem was that
everytime bad weather hit you would loose a few.

I work at Moffett Airfield and can see the big blimp hanger
the navy built from my office.  They used them for anti-sub
patrols (they launched airplanes from them).  The didn't
abandon them because of any scare.  They just had too much
trouble with bad weather.  It was a fundamental problem that
plagues those who talk about using them today....

>About half of Far Trader is already "thrashed", as far as that goes. :)
>
>I'm not the economic expert (that's John), but I don't see where drop tanks
>_by_themselves_ make all that much difference. We ran the numbers for
>several different scenarios -- LASH frieghters, farports, SL vs. USL
>freighters -- and they all came out very much the same. Jump masking had a
>much more profound impact on commercial operations, which is why I ran it
>by Marc Miller for confirmation before putting it in.
>
>Fuel is not all that significant an expense, even when you calculate cargo
>volume lost to internal tankage. Time is significant, as in the number of
>jumps a given ship can make in a year. With drop tanks, you'd be simply
>trading overhead and time (capturing and remounting drop tanks) for
>additional range. In the cases where that would be useful, I can't see that
>it invalidates any of the underlying assumptions we made about trade and
>commerce in the Imperium.

Well, you wouldn't capture the tanks.  You would pay to rent
them and the system you are leaving from then picks them up,
refills them, and rents them again.  Also, if they work
as desribed there is no reason why you have to do it that
way.  You should be able to just string a pipe (or even a cable)
from a jump station.

Loosing jump tankage gains something like a 30% to 100% increase
in cargo space.  It also means that high jump ships can be constructed
by only increasing jump drive size (and jump drives don't take
much space).  This means that drop tanks increase revenue by up
to 100% even before you factor in that fact that you can cover
longer distances in 1/3 of the time (assuming most ships are
jump-2 as Far Trader does).  I don't see how this can't make
a big difference in the economics.  It like taking a ships
and saying you can have six ships at no extra cost....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:57:02 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: R Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards

Fri, 02 Apr 1999 09:38:29 -0700, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>It's a bit more complex than drop tanks/no drop tanks. The Comet was the
>first commercial jet aircraft, but by the time of the crashes, and
>cancellation of the orders, Boeing was close to entry into the market,
>with the 707, which was a far more robust, larger aircraft. That's what
>really killed the Comet after the intial crashes. The commercial world
>was willing to wait a few years for a more economical, safer aircraft.

>Thus, the initial drop tank fiascos would probably only put off the
>adoption of drop tanks by a few years, at most a decade, once they
>figured out what was going on.

Except that the TNS entry claimed that they were already
in use in the interior.  I would say a year or two at most.
(only because of the time it takes to travel in Traveller,
otherwise someone who was making exisiting ones would
just start shipping them out).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 21:06:03 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 01:46 AM 02/04/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>>>Thta's easy. We don't have viable space systems at TL8, not for a space
>>>capable fighter. Not even for something like the Deltas in Walter Jon
>>>Williams 'Hardwired'. So you ask him to design a space capable fighter with
>>
>>Good book by the way.
>
>
>I agree - one of the less Cyberpunk, Cyberpunk books. i actually bought the
>game supplement for CP2020 for this one (hi Michel!).
>
        Hi, Dom!  I agree completely and rather like the weapons-design
system in it.   I have been sort of considering using the Delta as typical
Frontier World method of moving material from one Outpost to another...

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:07:18 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Lawyers

Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:49:31 -0800, "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>That's a good question.  To the extent that the Imperium wants that air
>of legitimacy and the active consent of the governed, it will adhere to
>the rule of innocent until proven guilty, will notify defendants of the
>charges and evidence against them, and will have public trials.

This is a very Anglo-American view.  Note even all European contries
have presumption of innocent.  A justice system could be based on
the principle that is doesn't presumption that it simply decides
which is most likely (or that its job is to allow _you_ to prove
your innocence) and be seen as legitimate.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:50:30 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage) 

<snip>

> You missed the part about the grid.  The Natural shape of a jump field is a
> spheroid around the coil.  Larger coil = bigger spheroid.  This becomes cost

You're right.  I caught it when I browsing through the last couple digests, 
but after I sent my post.  That does make sense.  Probably what I'll do.  
Wasn't that your idea?

Regarding the Terrans doing it the "hard way" w/ "displacement mass" would 
make sense too, as Terran gravitic tech was so lacking, compared to the 
Vilani, who would've been able to use their superior gravitics.  Plus, it's 
at least a rational reason why the Vilani would bother with jump dimming.  
That and/or have the Vilani jump drives not have an independant reactor, but 
getting it's energy from the main power plant.  I'll probably do a combo of 
the two for MTU, though Vilani the RoM and 3I would probably be more 
according to Terran/Solomani lines and just practicing a traditional 
exercise.  Has anyone else made any handwaves why the Vilani would practice 
that?


Gary 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:50:33 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks and canon (was Re: Garbage) 

> I'm coming to the debate late, as usual, when some of the dust has settled,
> the battle lines are drawn, and the metaphors aren't flying as thick as
> they were. Please forgive me if these points have been made before.

Pah.  Forgiveness?  You're far too humble.  :-)  You're exactly who I wanted 
to hear from (and the other Far Trader authors, particularly the econo one).  
I'm big enough to admit I'm wrong (when I am).  It's just David's arguments 
that seem particularly lacking (and he's the only vocal one I find on that 
side of the fence, though Hans tends towards there, too, i think), to me.

> Has anyone suggested that drop tanks are the Traveller equivalent of
> lighter-than-air ships? Let's examine the similarities:
<snip>

Exactly.  Eminently reasonable and the point i've been trying to make.  An 
excellent analogy.  I've never designed a drop tank equipped ship nor even 
used the stinky gazelle design (most of the stock designs, even in BL, stink. 
 RSB on the other hand, has some good ones...).  

> I'm not the economic expert (that's John), but I don't see where drop tanks
> _by_themselves_ make all that much difference. We ran the numbers for
> several different scenarios -- LASH frieghters, farports, SL vs. USL
> freighters -- and they all came out very much the same. Jump masking had a
> much more profound impact on commercial operations, which is why I ran it
> by Marc Miller for confirmation before putting it in.

Very very interesting.  What is jump masking?  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:50:45 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (was: Garbage) 

> [OK, I'm going to start trimming replies or not respond at all
> after this.  Gary is starting to tick me off....

I've ranged from incredulous to sarcastic, but certainly not hostile.  Easy 
there, khihe.  You're welcome to get me privately, as always.  

> >The only credible issue you have is the economics changing the setting and
> >that simply doesn't apply to the 1100s.
> 1130, possibly if there wasn't a 14
> >year long civil war that breaks out.
> 
> No, I also have changes in balance of power, etc (see my
> previous post).

And that wasn't a concern that would affect anything.  Despite the debate 
over the effectiveness of drop tanks, the 3I doesn't care about the 
perception of the balance of power, as long as it favors them.  If it leads 
to war, it leads to war.  As far as imperial thought is concerned,the Zhos 
are cheats and liars and if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.  Same 
thing on the Solomani end (substitute fanatic and yahoo for cheat and liar).  
Who else are the Imperials concerned about?  K'kree?  Hivers?  Vargr?  The 
answer is noone.  Internal trade is the primary purpose of the Imperium.  The 
IN can deal with the other polities.

> Also, the change in the economics doesn't
> _finish_ right away, but it does begin right away (actaully,
> according the TNS, it began a dozen years before).  Those
> should be years of fundamental change, which will affect
> PC (if you don't ignore how the world around them works)

As Hans has asked, what evidence do you have that such changes are not taking 
place?  The exact timeframe is quite debatable, as Christopher Thrash's 
commens on LTA craft bear out.   Just because such isn't happening in YTU, 
doesn't mean it isn't happening in the G:T ATU.

> >Even if you're right (and you're not IMO), how is that bad?  Things should
> >grow and develop and change like that.  That's what technology does.
> 
> Well, this is, IMO, the only real arguement I can see.  If you
> decided that focusing your setting on the introduction of drop
> tank technology is what you want to do, then you get around the fundamental
> change in the setting issue.  You still have the "why don't you use jump
> energy for weapons".

As you have said yourself, there are numerous handwaves for that.  The best 
of which is that the fuel isn't guzzled instantly.  It's all gone by the end 
of jump, sure, but not instantly.

> >The economics have never been fleshed out enough for this
> >to be considered anyways.
> 
> Well, not quite.  The kinds of ships you interacted with, the
> cost of cargo, etc. all change enough to be notice, even
> under MT.  Additionally, GT does, in fact, flesh out the
> economics.

One of the very authors of Far Trader says it won't have the catastrophic 
effect 
you claim.  In fact, I see an interesting discussion in rec.games.frp.gurps 
about 
this very topic where drop tanks are explicitly said to be an option!  Now 
maybe
this person is in error, but if not, I'm left to wonder why you've left such 
a thing out.  
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not deliberately 
misrepresenting Far Trader, though.

> >We've hardly had a
> >definitive look at every ship in the 3I, at any date.
> 
> We have definately been presented with what are suppose to
> be the common types.  And if the introduction of drop

1)  For a backwater.  2) For independant Han Solo types.  3)  (For Trader 
ships) Marginally profitible, niche, craft (except for TNE's World Tamer's 
Handbook IIRC).  All of which are summarized by "fringe."

> >It's good that's not what I say, then.  :-)  If there are some notable
> >accidents with them, there will be that much more a delay in widespread
> >confidence (and thus use) of them.
> 
> That might buy you a year or two.  Maybe less since they are
> suppose to be in use in the interior without incident now....

What do you base that on?  Your numbers are just much a WAG as mine.  Hans 
is good w/ #s and calculating things, though I don't always agree w/ his 
conclusions, at least they have some objectivity there.  What do you say, 
Hans?  How long, assuming no more catastrophic events and/or a public 
backlash against drop
tanks?

> >Their implications are not what you make them out to be, though the 
economic
> >ones *could* be.
> 
> But those implications have to be believable
> or suspension of disbelief is damaged.

Your 'implications' are far overemphasized and overrated.  You appear to be 
the sole proponet that drop tanks destroy Traveller Economics As We Know It, 
when it's becomming clear it's not even true for Far Trader!

> >It's not going to be "hey, lets' all switch to
> >drop tank ships, first have r&d design us some ships.
> 
> That has been done.  TNS presented them with working prototypes
> and stated they had been in use for a dozen years.

Well i'm going off've Behind the Claw here, but it mentions that 1105 was the 
*first* use of drop tanks commercially.  A couple notable disasters, as 
Christopher Thrash has pointed out, would easily push them back decades, and 
is conceivable for centuries.

> >  nevermind the 27 point
> >stock drop upon our announcement.  Then let's convert our entire fleet 
over,
> >despite the fact they may be dangerous and lose us more money than we 
gain."
> >That's ludicrous.   You have to be setting up a straw man.
> 
> Careful.  The only strawman I see is here.  I have never argued
> they would appear overnight.  I said they would introduce a
> period of introduction which would be a period of change.

That was mostly sarcasm, though the basic point remains unchallenged by you.  
Tukera and General have very little economic incentive, when you weigh the 
enormous possiblity for eating those drop tanks.  In fact, they have 
incentive to not convert over (a big stock drop that would be a neon/iridium 
sign for the other megacorps).

> >the basic setting of G:T (1120)
> >should be safe, giving it a few decades for the changeover by the large 
bulk
> >haulers (almost exclusively megacorp).
> 
> No.  It doesn't take decades to build a ship, let alone convert
> and existing one to drop tanks.  (Esp since there is a ship

Noone, least of all I, have said that.  It will take decades before the 
stigma of drop tanks fades, following a few notable disasters and an enormous 
uncertainty of the true effectiveness of drop tanks (over debates that might 
well have nothing to do with the actual merits or flaws in them).  Why did we 
not see a BB equiped w/ drop tanks in Fighting Ships?  Because it wasn't 
explored, like you claim?  Or the Navy planners didn't have that much 
confidence is such an expensive platform being possibly so vulnerable to 
loss.  Look at the reputation the Gazelle's are said to have (which is a 
design and role flaw rather than a problem w/ drop tanks).  That would not 
lead to confidence in any circle, regardless of the actual merits of drop 
tanks.

> In GT they are suppose to have been in use in the interior
> 29 years and in the Marches for over a decade.  That is more

As military.  Recent advances in "capacitor engineering" made it possible.  
Besides the fact that the TNS entry is far from objective (if not an outright 
megacorp PR device).

> It also cause real problems with the "using jump fuel for
> weapons" problem (we really need a name for that :-)

Sure.  But like you said, solved by numerous handwaves (even if it wasn't a 
problem based on a particular model of jump drive, which is hardly 
substantiated by canon).

> >I'll give you decades, but not 1.
> 
> I dont' know of any GM who would be happy with the idea that his
> campaign can only cover one year.

1 *decade* not 1 year. :-)  I thought that was clear, though I guess I can 
see where u misinterpreted it.

> >  10 years maybe if there wasn't opposition,
> >but there appears to be significant opposition to the implementation and
> >usage of drop-tanks to the Imperial periphery that could well delay it to
> >even beyond 50 (by publically discrediting drop tanks to the bureaucracy,
> >public, or nobility, regardless of the actual performance).
> 
> I don't agree.  The change in economics means that there are
> also powerful interests in favor of them.  All oppostion is

Where are these "powerful interests?"  In the few mentions of the subject, 
there is no mention of concrete supporters of it, but mention of a severe 
stock drop to the parties involved.  That's hardly going to make for 
enthusiastic business interests.   There might well be, but htat would be 
your inference for YTU.  Nothing at all comprehensive for the G:T ATU, much 
less the OTU.

> >I haven't seen Far Trader yet, but a "Drop Tank addendum" or "Far Trader 
vol
> >2" shouldn't require herculean efforts.
> 
> It will, you will have rebuild the system from the bottom up.

One of the authors disagrees with you.  I haven't seen it yet, but I'm 
beginning to believe you're misrepresenting it to support your case, though 
I'll give u the benefit of the doubt that it's unintentional.

> >  The sky isn't going to fall in if
> >G:T adopts drop tanks, David.
> 
> You seem awfully willing accept that if you wave your hands,
> there won't be any problems, even with things that you haven't
> even seen.  For my part, these hand waves just seem shallow,
> unconvincing, and clearly contrived.

And you seem needlessly naysaying something that will have a minimal impact, 
by wringing your hands w/ your own shallow, unconvincing, and clearly 
contrived handwaves and proclaiming the catastrophe that will befall G:T 
economics if they're adopted as "official," when in reality it's not the 
case.  

> >> It's like some discovered a way to do jump-12 and nobody cared...
> >
> >Hardly.
> 
> I think so.  It will mean that jump-6 ships will be the rule,
> rather than jump-2 or so like it is now....

And you lose 2 more weeks (for a J2 despite the fact u'd need that many more 
drop tanks), in the time you can possibly do the same w/ tanks in your cargo 
hold (inflatable or demountable).  In the same time your competitors have 
made 3 stops.  And one misjump and you're done.  Certainly J6 drives are not 
any more viable for merchant craft?  Or are you saying J3 drives will become 
the rage now?

> >Well in reality, because that was in the first batch of TNS entries in JTAS
> >2.  lol.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you going to back to the
> arguement that the TNS entries and rules should be changed
> to make them arbitrarily (and unalterably) dangerous? Like
> I said before, yuck.

LOL.  Yuck?  ;-)  I mean that some of the first JTAS (#2) TNS entries spoke 
that there were bad things about them.  That they're not proven.   The debate 
over something you see as obviously proven effective dates from practically 
the beginning of Traveller.  Real Life.

> Or are you arguing that they were meant to be arbitrarily
> dangerous (yuck again) but, for some unknown reason, they
> decided to say that had been in use for a dozen years
> in the interior, refered the incident as quality control
> instead of fundamental problems (again, inexplicitly),
>  and "forgot" to put any rules for them being dangerous?
> My response to that is indeed "lol".

Laugh from your belly, it'll make u a happier person.  Muwahahaha!  Like 
that.  

Game time 12 years, not RL.  If anything is flawed, it might be that.  That 
they're in the gazelles for 12 years (gaining the bad reputation that 
characterizes such), gaining the scorn of the IN is believable, though.

> >Reread the TNS entry.  That was from the press release by Tukera and 
General.
> > It's propaganda.  I'm sure they want to make themselves look revolutionary
> >and ushering in the "dawn of a new era of commerce."  It makes good
> >advertising copy.  I know you're not that gullible.  Are you?
> 
> The author (the real one) that wrote the entry thought that it
> would be a credible claim.  And since it is true, it was.

LOL.  That's relevant how?  Who was the author anyway?  Unless he has the 
initials MWM, LKW or F?C, or was a GDW staffer of some kind, it means 
precisely squat and even then, that far from settles it.  The implication of 
the TNS entry is clear, regardless of the author's thoughts on its veracity.

> >That is a strawman, pure and simple. Not in the lifespan of your campaign
> >(presuming you don't run generational decade long campaigns, which I 
suppose
> >is possible).
> 
> Hogwash.  The idea that it takes decades is just absurd.  Why
> would it?

You YOURSELF conceded "decades" (at least two, therefore). You tell me.  

> >Only if the IN funds the ship designs.  As Real Life shows, it's far too
> >often actual effectiveness takes a back seat to political and economic
> >considerations.
> 
> You have got to be kidding.  Corps run on the bottom line.  They
> are going _jump_ at something that affects it.  The Imperium
> isn't going to ingnore something that give them the edge just
> becuase they don't like new things (why do you think they have
> all those research stations).

To research a whole lot of different things.  If it's what you make it out to 
be yeah.  It hardly appears to be the case, though.  

> > You're not trying hard enough.  Pirates aren't an invading
> >force who are going to use planet busters.
> 
> I never said this!  I said that the claim is that shipping will
> now come in predetermined locations that are now easier to
> protect (the pirate has to attack a station to get at the
> ship).

I did misunderstand that, then.  I thought u were saying they would be easier 
to attack and i was preempting the possible uses in defeating a fixed 
installation (which we know is undefendable militarily).

> >LOL.  The famous last ditch defense.  "It's why I avoid AD&D! Really."
> 
> > You
> >should critically analyze your own arguments before you make them.  I'm
> >gunning them down w/o trying very hard.
> 
> From where you sit.  I'm trying to be polite and cast this
> as a different point of view.  To be honeest, what I really
> believe if that your rationalization are shallow and not
> credible and are the same sort of thing that gave rise to
> hokey settings.  I though it would be better to invoke
> AD&D as a hokey setting rather than Virus.  But your comments
> on how I'm arguing my points is getting me to now care...

LOL.  I am pressing your buttons, ain't I?  The first line quoted was 
sarcastic.  I guess i should tone it down some, i'm prone to sarcasm when 
dealing w/ absurdity.
My response probably goes along the lines of "Pot? Kettle?  Nice to meet you."
Being polite should never be a chore, David.  If you're seething underneath, 
let it
out.  You'll just get an ulcer or something...

Any day you're feeling froggy enough to tackle Virus w/ me, I'm here.  It's 
Done to Death, though, so you may want to do it privately.  ;-)

You can visit rec.games.frp.misc if you want to partake in the perpetual AD&D 
Sucks/AD&D Rocks threads.  A game that sucessful and popular hardly needs any 
defense from lil ol me.  I don't even play it anymore, anyways.

> >> Centuries is absurd.  Sure it will take decades.  Decades in
> >> which they are driving force for change (as I mention above),
> >> unless you want to divert the timeline to deal with those
> >> decades of change you have issues....
> 
> >Progress at last.  At least you admit it will take decades.  That's 
plural.  ]
> 
> Don't get your hopes up.  A few decades to mostly finish.  (A lot
> of the change will occur in one or two.)  But even if it takes
> 5, this will be the _end_ of a period of change that will
> start as soon as they are introduced.

That is great progress from the instant destruction of Far Trader you were 
saying earlier.  Keyword is "mostly."  There's a whole lot of variation 
possible there, subject to an enormous number of variables and conflicting 
interests.  Then I take this is as an admission than within one, thoroughly 
wrecking economics as we know it, to be either devil's advocate or a strawman?

> >Noone
> >forces you to deal with any issues.
> 
> No, I can just have a background that doesn't make sense (yuck).

Except when it does and you don't want it to.

> >  Does anyone here think life will be like
> >it's portrayed in Traveller?  It's 20th century people in space.
> 
> I think Traveller is a setting for which I can play without
> having my suspension of disbelief too bruised.

And drop tanks damage that how again?  Your ONLY valid argument is against 
changing the setting which doesn't HAVE TO happen w/ the rapidity you seem to 
envision.  It won't happen that quickly in ANY TU, IMO.

> >offend them (for whatever reason).  I'd like to hear from the authors that
> >it's completely thrashed by drop tanks, first, though, until I get it and 
can
> >read it myself.
> 
> I do believe it would be better to make them an optional rule
> rather than drop them entirely.  Free trader is a problem
> because it assumes it knows the how the bulk of freight is
> shipped and then fits the PC into that setting.  At best
> you might get a Pyramid article on how adapt it (if it could
> be done in that short of a space).

Well one of the authors seems to disagree that it'll have the catastrophic 
effect on even his work, though we have yet to hear from the economics guru 
author.  Hopefully he'll speak up and settle the issue on whether drop tanks 
"doom" Far Trader in a way that the other methods they modeled don't.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:55:00 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank

It is a part of Traveller canon that large amounts of fuel are required
to propel a ship into jump space and keep it there in a useful fashion.

It is also accepted that some of the fuel required is used to charge up
the jump drive. This begs the question : why not use the jump capacitors
as an accumulator bank for 'the mother of all weapons systems'?

My Cr0.02 :-
An enormous amount of energy is generated in a relatively small volume
in a short space of time. Only two outcomes can result :-
i. a controlled distortion in space-time (nascent jump bubble) ;
ii. the total destruction of the generator.

There are better ways of building space-based bombs and mines.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #394
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, April 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 395



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Keeping Meson Guns Appropriately Sized
Re: grand unified theory
OT: Ad Astra by Wasteland Games
Re: Garbage
G:T -- TAS Membership
Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)
Re: Moons
Re: Aurora  (was max accel)
Re: Re 10 diameters, 100 diameters
Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)
Mayday Edition Question
Re: Moons
Imperial Justice
Villani Repository of All Knowledge??
Re: Mayday Edition Question
Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards
Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank
Re: Ad Astra by Wasteland Games

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:55:03 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Keeping Meson Guns Appropriately Sized

Ian Whitchurch has commented that there is a lack of design constraints
on meson guns. Specifically, pocket versions would appear to be
permissible at any Tech Level.

Looking back through High Guard, MT and FF&S1/2, a solution comes to
mind :-

100 displacement ton bay weapons become available at TL 13.
50 displacement ton bay weapons become available at TL 15.

The dimensions of these bays as published permit the following :-
100 displacement ton meson weapons have a minimum tunel length of 16m,
with an upper limit of 20.75m ; and
50 displacement ton weapons have a minimum tunnel length of 12m, with an
upper limit of 16.1m.

I propose :-
* Meson Gun Minimum Tunnel Lengths, by Tech Level (Traveller TLs)
Tech Level	Tunnel Length,m		Comments
11		21			as long as a 'road train'
12		16			big semi-trailer
14		12			=Meson gun sled from RCVG(?)
16		9
17		4.5
18		2			meson bazooka
20		1			meson squad support gun
22		0.5			meson rifle
24		0.25			meson pistol(!!)

This would afford the least damage to canon (and then I saw Commander
X's meson bazooka....!), and permits some disturbing ultra-tech
weaponry.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 01:18:00 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:

>I think Starship Operators' Manual incorporates zuchai crystals.  If
>they're lanthanum, they can stop being mysterious zapotron rays (tm).


They're used as capacitors to control the charge delivery into the jump
grid. Same as HPGs in FFS2 functionally.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 09:10:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OT: Ad Astra by Wasteland Games

Apologies for this query but -

If anyone from Wasteland Games who was involved in the development of Ad
Astra is on the list, please contact me by private email.

If anyone else has a contact address, please let me know.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 23:39:57 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Garbage

>One thing is that the differnt
>views appear to be based on is that we clearly have different
>beliefs in what is a believable and/or acceptable explination.

True, but I think the problem is that you don't realize that just because you
may not find it beliveable, it doesn't make it any less likely.

As Haldane(?)   said "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine but
stranger than we _can_ imagine".  IME, this applies as much to the actions of
humans as to the universe itself.

And even if you do find it unbelivebale, so what ?
The whole damn setting is completely unbelievable if you really think about
it.
It's almost impossible that a society that far in the future, constructed of
multiple alien and human races with supposedly advanced technology ,would be
remotely recognizable to a twentieth century human. Think about dropping an
Australian Aboriginal tribesman from the 17th C  in the middle of New York

But it being unbelievable doesn''t make it any less fun to play in.

>I have no desire to stick with minor bits of canon
>that were never really explored and have real problems. In
>spite of all the other things I mentioned, we still haven't
>gotten into one of the real problems with drop tanks.  They
>require you to burn the fuel and store it as energy

Exactly, and that's the way they have always been supposed to work.
There really is no problem with that.

>That
>means there is no way around the "why don't you also use all
>that energy for weapons" problems.

Why not let people use all that energy for weapons ?
Gives them one or two really big shots and then they're sitting ducks, unable
to jump out of system.
Sort of like what happens to a sailing-boat armed with an Exocet these days.

Valid weapon for last ditch efforts, but I'd make it extremely risky unless
the weapon system was _designed_ for such a purpose, as otherwise the power
levels are way too high for normal weapon hardware to handle it, and it's
basically a waste of a ship in a real war.

<snip of large number of circular arguments >

>You have got to be kidding.  Corps run on the bottom line.  They
>are going _jump_ at something that affects it.  The Imperium
>isn't going to ingnore something that give them the edge just
>becuase they don't like new things (why do you think they have
>all those research stations).

<Snip>

>>Progress at last.  At least you admit it will take decades.  That's
lural.  ]
>
>Don't get your hopes up.  A few decades to mostly finish.  (A lot
>of the change will occur in one or two.)  But even if it takes
>5, this will be the _end_ of a period of change that will
>start as soon as they are introduced.

If you want to argue like that, then you must also come up with a convincing
explanation for the lack if bio-tech, the crappy capabilities of TL 15
computers and communications, most of which we already better on Earth now,
and all the other strange lacks and presences that the Traveller universe has
when it comes to technology.

Now, the normal explantion for these things not being around (or still being
around) , is "Vilani conservatism". Apply that to your problem above, and it
is solved.  IF Vilani conservatism is enough to repress or limit development
over millenia whole technologies, it's not surprising that the drop-tank isn't
spreading like wildfire.

A few "progressive" companies on the edge of the Imperium may be using them on
loose runs in less well-controlled space, but the Imperial Aerospace Authority
haven't approved their use at rated starports yet, and based on normal
Imperial bureaucracy times, it'll take the committee investigating it decades
to decide on the color of paper they'll print their report on, let alone make
a decision on their space-worthiness.

Add the Vilani insurance companies reluctance to insure ships containing any
technology younger than half a century, and  they are not going to change the
Imperium in your lifetime.

Obviously you may find that unbelievable. Which is what the Solomani thought
when they first met the Vilani, so it's not very surprising, unless you're not
Solomani !

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 06:20:59 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: G:T -- TAS Membership

Two ways to do this.  When characters are created, use the "starting wealth" 
rules.  David Summers' original Traveller conversion suggested TAS as a Claim 
to Hospitality(TAS) Advantage at 10 points.  That's what I used when my 
players converted from T4

> Is the point cost of a TAS membership indicated anywhere?
> I figure it should be about a 10 point advantage, but I can't seem to find
> it anywhere. I notice that none of the example characters in Far Trader
> (awesome book, by the way) are TAS members.
> 
> Brannon


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 22:43:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)

In mail you write:

> Both types are pretty impressive in their economical use of 
> space, but a week in a standard sounds pretty brutal. You'd 
> probably spend most of your time in a lounge car, retreating
> to the room only to sleep - hence a starship designed along 
> those lines would have more common spaces and smaller cabins,
> but probably a very similar total amount of space. 

> I'm something of an antisocial animal, so I think I'd go nuts - 
> having my breakfast and dinner at a table shared with complete 
> strangers is my absolute limit. "I gotta get outta here. But 
> there's PEOPLE out there... AAARGH!" 

Doesn't bother me as much. But then we went from Spokane to New York
via train in 1959. I was only 4, but I still remember the crowded
dining cars and the old style Pullman cars. 

> The visual appearance of J-space becomes VERY relevant if you 
> spend time in a room that small: you will want to look at 
> ANYTHING other than the inside of the room, so when you get 
> tired of reading and socializing, you'll look out the window.
> On a train, that means your neck gets sore and your eyes get 
> tired of flicking back and forth to follow the scenery. 
> Nivenesque No-See-Um hyperspace would get me out of the room,
> drinking cheap whiskey, and talking to people pretty quick.

Normal space ain't much better. Unlike SF movies and TV the stars
*don't* move. And you aren't all that likely to have a view of the
planet. Even if you do, it won't be all that interesting.

> Keep in mind that in Traveller, you've got the week in jump
> plus a day or so of maneuver on each end. Plus, you might be
> going more than one hop - you might get to spend a few days 
> off-ship, but you know you're going right back into that 
> little box pretty soon. And if you're a crewbeing rather than
> a passenger, that little box is going to be your home for 
> a year or more.

Navy types seem to do ok. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 22:53:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Moons

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> <snipped>
> "Terra/Luna is more of a "double planet" and thus a *rare* 
> configuration."
>
>         Hmmmmm. This may well be true (I assume that it is 
>         for MTU), but unless you have access to astonomical
>         data that is denied to the rest of us you might
>         consider inserting the word "probably" (or some
>         such) before *rare*.

Well, there are a lot of bodies in the solar system, and only
Earth/Luna and Pluto/Charon are "large" and "double". And frankly,
Pluto is small enough to be more like an asteroid. Asteroids seem to
occur in doubles moderately often.

But we are fairly certain how Luna was formed, and it requires a
*really* unlikely event. Basicly a *big* planetismal doing the right
sort of "grazing" impact during the last stages of the formation of the
solar system.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 23:03:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aurora  (was max accel)

In mail you write:

> On 03/31/99 at 09:24 PM,  Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> said:
>
>>>>There was the Arrora (spelling) the largest transonic bomber ever built.
>
> From what I've read Aurora is the codename for a hypothetical
> hypersonic test vehicle that may or may not exist and may or may not
> fly out of "Dreamland."  ;->

I guess you haven't heard. "Dreamland" aka "Site 51" is no more. The
place is closed. No activity. Folks shooting a TV documentary were able
to drive miles past the places where people used to be stopped, all the
way up to a locked gate in a chain link fence.

> One speculation is that Aurora using an
> unconventional engine that burns it's fuel outside the engine itself
> at hypersonic speeds using the wind stream to shape an external
> nozzle.

Aerospike nozzle.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 23:22:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re 10 diameters, 100 diameters

In mail you write:

>> The charts *may* be based on accelerating until you are halfway there
>> and then decelerating from there to the limit, so you arrive "at rest".
>> Or they may be based on accelerating all the way, so you arrive moving
>> like a bat out of hell. The two situations give *very* different
>> answers.
>
> I calculated a ship accelerating to the midway point, and then
> decelerating. If you look at the time charts in the Imperial
> Encyclopedia, then the distance is not equivalent to calculating 10
> times the planet's diameter to get the 10 diameter distance, nor 100
> diameter. In fact, the distance that the Encyclopedia seems to show is
> that the distance is considerably more than the x 10 or x 100 (multiply
> by 10 or 100). Strange. From what I gather, I may ignore these tables,
> since they would make drawing a space map time consuming.

Ok, I figured it out after I dug out my copy. I didn't bother figuring
the "surface to orbit" times as that gets *really* ugly because you
have to compensate for changing effects of planetary gravity.

The "orbit to 10 diameters" time matches the time for "turnover" trip
of 9 diameters. So assuming that orbit is about 1 diameter (reasonable
kludge), you boost from there to 10 diameters, turning over and
decelerating halfway, and the time checks.

The "time to 100 diameters" matches a *90* diameter "turnover" trip.
That is, start at 10 diameters, boost to 100 diameters, with a turnover
halfway. 

I gues they figure that a ship would rather reach 10 diameters with a
zero velocity in case they need to make a "risky" jump. Me, I'd just
boost for 100 diameters, and chance having to jump with a non-zero
velocity. 

I'd calculate it rather differently. If pressed, I'll write a program
to generate time/distance/velocity charts for continous boosts from
ground to 100 diameters with and without turnovers at halfway.

Hmmm. It just occured to me that my old "psuedo integration" routines
from 1972 would actually run fast enough to be *useful* on modern
hardware. I'd still rather have the formulas for determining *real*
orbits, but maybe things will work ok. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 09:02:39 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)

David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I work at Moffett Airfield and can see the big blimp hanger
the navy built from my office.  They used them for anti-sub
patrols (they launched airplanes from them).  The didn't
abandon them because of any scare.  They just had too much
trouble with bad weather.  It was a fundamental problem that
plagues those who talk about using them today....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Navy launched airplanes from two zeppelins during the 1930's
IIRC - the Akron and another. Both were short-lived experiments,
using biplanes with an overhead hook to link up with a catcher arm
on the zeppelin. I recall one squadron was known as "The men on
the flying trapeze". Both were lost in bad weather, and caused the
end of rigid airships in US government use.

Blimps (non-rigid airships), on the other hand, were used extensively
for anti-submarine patrols during WW2. They could loiter on-station
almost indefinitely, could easily outpace a convoy or submerged
submarine, and carried a reasonable load of depth charges.
According to every source I've heard, no convoy under protection of
a blimp ever lost a ship to a sub.

Blimps were also pretty weather-sensitive, but probably not much more
than your average 1940's aircraft. A blimp couldn't fly in nasty weather,
but no plane that could fly in bad weather back then could fight in it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:30:42 -0600
From: meow@advancenet.net
Subject: Mayday Edition Question

while helping a friend go through the personal effects/game 
collection of a co-worker, we ran accross something I thought was 
odd. a copy of Mayday in a ziplock bag, and its the oversized 
format like that used for Deluxe Traveller. I dont remember Mayday
ever coming in a ziplock bag let alone in the oversized format.
its unpunched.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 02:36:51 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Moons

Date sent:      	Fri, 02 Apr 1999 16:16:54 -0500
From:           	Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>

>Leonard Erickson writes:
><snipped>
>"Terra/Luna is more of a "double planet" and thus a *rare* 
>configuration."

>	Hmmmmm. This may well be true (I assume that it is 
>	for MTU), but unless you have access to astonomical
>	data that is denied to the rest of us you might
>	consider inserting the word "probably" (or some
>	such) before *rare*.

I believe the technicalities of it have to do with the relative amounts of
gravitational influence the Earth and Sun have on the Moon. The way I
understand it, the Sun's gravity has a far greater influence on the Moon
than the Earth does. Thus the Earth and Moon are really a double planet
system spinning around their centre of mass (which just happens to be
some distance below Earth's crust).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 02:36:51 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Imperial Justice

Since the topic has come up, here's MTU version

Each Imperial Noble is responsible for maintaining Imperial justice in
his or her jurisdiction. Thus in theory all Imperial cases should be heard
by the relevant Imperial Noble. Barons and Counts will only hear cases in
exceptional cases and most Marquises only hear very minor cases; thus
the usual Imperial court of first instance is the Ducal Court. While a Noble
is theoretically allowed to preside over any case themselves, by custom
they defer this to a properly convened court consisting of tribunal of judges.
However, occasionally Nobles will reach into a case and take it over
personally (especially when they want PCs to "do a little job" for them).

Now as I said, by tradition Imperial cases are usually heard by a tribunal
(3 to 11 judges, 5 to 6 being most common). These courts are *not* based
on the Anglo-American common law system and there is no presumption
of innocence (or guilt). The duty of the court is to determine the facts of
the matter, and it is solely their responsibility to do this. This has lots of
interesting implications. For instance IMTU, theoretically only the judges
may question or call witnesses (as they only they are responsible for
determining the facts). Now they may (and usually do) delegate this to a
defence attorney, but they can simply refuse to allow a line of questioning,
cross examination, or even access to a witness. Also there is no "right
of discovery", the defence does not get to see the evidence. Thus, if the
Imperium wants, they can easily stack the deck. The tribunal reaches its
decision by majority and appeals are only by leave (either of the first court,
or the higher one). A desenting opinion by a judge is usually grounds for
an appeal, and by tradition most first appeals are usually granted a hearing.
However, again the Imperium can stack the deck. Second appeals generally
require two desenting opinions or a serious point of law or fact (note here,
the prosecution may appeal an acquittal on an equal basis).

Above the Ducal courts are the Sector Ducal courts, the Archducal courts
and finally the Emperors Court. The Emperors court is actually two courts,
a junior court of 5 to 7 judges and a senior court of the full bench of 11.
Most cases are heard at the Ducal level with appeals to the Sector, but
some serious cases will jump straight to the Sector level with appeal to the
Archducal. There is no Grand Jury or Depositions; if you are charged, you
go to trial.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:55:40 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??

I'm desparately searching for additional information about the AAB.  
Specifically, I'm wondering what role it plays in the Spinward Marches, circa 
1120.  Milleu 0 is an awesome resource, but of course, is set in a different era.  
Are there publications past or present that would be a good resource?  Or, am I 
to assume that the lack of information for later eras means that it plays a 
significantly smaller role in the Third Imperium?
 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 08:09:26 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

It's GDW stock number 601 (I don't know what Mayday in the LBB
format's stock number is).  It is missing it's full size, full color
box.

Kristian

meow@advancenet.net wrote:
> 
> while helping a friend go through the personal effects/game
> collection of a co-worker, we ran accross something I thought was
> odd. a copy of Mayday in a ziplock bag, and its the oversized
> format like that used for Deluxe Traveller. I dont remember Mayday
> ever coming in a ziplock bag let alone in the oversized format.
> its unpunched.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:25:50 -0600 (CST)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Economics of Drop Tanks

	Under GT, the j-drive and fuel tanks make up around 80% of the average 
merchant ship's cost.  Under FFS1 & FFS2, it tends to be under 50%.  So the 
economic impact of drop tanks obviously varies somewhat with rules edition.  
What really needs to be done if someone wants to push this discussion 
further is to actually design some drop-tank and non-drop-tank ships and see 
how they stack up.  
     I'm not going to do that, but let's try some back of the envelope 
calculations.  Based on all the designs we did for Far Trader, j-drives and 
cost around 60% and fuel tanks about 20% of a vanilla large J-2 ship.  The 
advantages of drop tanks are that the ship doesn't need to carry it's fuel 
tanks with it into j-space and can therefore reduce j-drive capacity 
accordingly, and that it can share the cost of fuel tanks with several other 
ships.  For a constant volume of cargo, a J-2 ship using drop tanks can 
reduce j-drive and fuel tank capacity (hence cost) by 20%. Since these two 
components make up 80% of the cost of the ship we see a (.8*.2=.16) 16% drop 
in ship price.  That's not huge but it is enough to make a big difference 
commercially. The cost advantage also goes up with jump number.
	There are some problems with drop tanks for shipping lines.  First of 
all, each system that is going to be served by drop-tank ships must be 
equipped with a system of delivering them to incoming ships, recovering 
them, refueling them, etc.  This is likely to resemble LASH operation in 
complexity.  Given the need for lots of port-side overhead and the greatest 
cost advantage being on high-jump ships, drop tanks would likely make their 
first appearance on x-boat routes.  
	Pushing the use of drop tanks out beyond the x-boat routes becomes 
much more problemmatic.  If you look at nearly any multi-jump trade route in 
the Marches, there is at least one very poor starport world along the way.  
For drop-tank liners to be feasible, each and every one of these worlds 
would have to have their facilities upgraded to be able to handle the demand 
for drop-tank service from every ship passing through.  This is likely to be 
expensive and take a lot of time.  It may not even make sense in a lot of 
places.  Note also that the cost savings for drop tanks only happen when 
ships are redesigned to take advantage of the technology.  Since Traveller 
ships can have a useful life-time of _minimum_ 40 years, and very likely at 
least twice that, it will be some time before enough ships could possibly be 
retired to make room for new drop tank ships.  Finally, the large 
investments in fixed facilities means that it becomes even harder to shift 
capacity from one route to another since doing so means over-loading the 
drop-tank facilities on one route and idling them on another.  The need to 
maintain conventional ships that can switch from route to route or surplus 
drop-tank ship capacity will erode the cost savings of a commercial drop 
tank fleet.
	All in all, drop tank ships do provide a significant cost savings but 
it is likely not large enough to introduce them off x-boat and main routes.  
In any case, it will take decades for them to phased in.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:18:31 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: An Analogy for Drop Tank Hazards

Charles R Hensley wrote:
> BobS. wrote:
> > I thought the Comets suffered from metal fatigue. In the wing
> > roots, IIRC...
>
> metal fatigue yes, but not in the wing roots, in the passenger
> cabin skin caused by the windows being too large.

Almost.  The de Havilland Comet 1 crashes were  caused  by  metal
fatigue cracks spreading from a rivet hole around the two ceiling
mounted windows (approx  25%  along  from  aircraft  nose).  This
caused the pressurised cabin to explode.  Two parallel  lines  of
inquiry uncovered this cause:

First, two-thirds of the initial crash plane was recovered by the
Royal Navy and reassembled (the water was too deep at the  second
crash site).

Second, another Comet was put in a tank, with its wings  sticking
out.  Jacks bent the wings,  while  water  was  pumped  into  the
fuselage to create strains equal to thousands of hours flying.



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:41:05 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank

Robert O'Connor wrote:
> It is a part of Traveller canon that large amounts of fuel are required
> to propel a ship into jump space and keep it there in a useful fashion.
> 
> It is also accepted that some of the fuel required is used to charge up
> the jump drive. This begs the question : why not use the jump capacitors
> as an accumulator bank for 'the mother of all weapons systems'?
> 
> My Cr0.02 :-
> An enormous amount of energy is generated in a relatively small volume
> in a short space of time. Only two outcomes can result :-
> i. a controlled distortion in space-time (nascent jump bubble) ;
> ii. the total destruction of the generator.

Many years ago (using the HG rules) I designed a  ship  that  did
just that: the Panther class experimental ship was  1000dt,  jump
capable, and had a 100dt Meson gun  bay  that  could  fire  every
alternate turn.  The use of jump  capacitors  effectively  halved
the 'per turn' power requirement of the Meson gun.  The HG  rules
covering jump capacitors in relation to  Black  Globe  generators
seems to support this possibility  ...  the  question  becomes  a
tactical trade-off between  more  (and  smaller)  ships  carrying
Meson guns versus those Meson guns only firing half as often.  In
general it is not cost effective and thus IMTU the Panther  class
was never commissioned in number.



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:50:24 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ad Astra by Wasteland Games

SD Mooney wrote:
> Apologies for this query but -
> 
> If anyone from Wasteland Games who was involved in the development of Ad
> Astra is on the list, please contact me by private email.
> 
> If anyone else has a contact address, please let me know.

According to their web site ( http://indigo.ie/~waste ) they  can
be contacted by:

- - Psionic Mind Link: blue circle swirls greatly in blind weather
                     symmetry 

- - email: waste@indigo.ie 

- - snail mail: 67 Eglinton Street
              Portrush
              Co. Antrim
              N. Ireland
              BT56 8DZ



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #395
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, April 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 396



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: To Dream of Chaos
Re: Languages in Traveller
GT: Traveller News
Re: OT: Lawyers
Re: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??
Re: Lawyers
SPOF-yu-lam
Re: To Dream of Chaos
Re: OT: Lawyers
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: Imperial Justice
Jesse's Art and SJG
Re: Mayday Edition Question
Drop Tanks was Garbage
Re: Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)
Re: Drop Tanks was Garbage
Re: Mayday Edition Question
Re: Drop Tanks [long]
Economics of drop tanks (Was: Garbage)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:07:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos

Joseph Kimball wrote:
> 
> I picked up the book To Dream of Chaos at my FLGS yesterday.  I'm into
> it about 55 pages and enjoying it.  It is part 2 of a trilogy though,
> and I'm wishing I could find the other two.  Oh well...

Don't get your hopes up...only the second one was ever published, IIRC.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:10:43 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

And it also helps to have a translator that speaks Bochie, and understands 
the language of binary vaporators.  <I had to say it, flame away if you must.>

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:18:17 -0500
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: GT: Traveller News

Is the TNS on the GT site going to be updated anytime soon?  I've been
follwing it closely and I'm hoping more will apear there.

Shade

" Forgive me Father for I have sinned "
" Thats putting it mildly 007"

James Bond & Q from For Your Eyes Only

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:18:42 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

IMHO...being an "empire" I would use the model given to us by several large 
monarchy's that have existed on our Terra.  The Imperium would supply counsel 
to those that could not provide their own.  However, they would not have the 
"innocent until proven guilty" ideal.  Most high powered constitutional 
monarchys tend to throw the burden of proof onto the defendant.  In other 
words, they are considered guilty and it is up to them to prove they are not.

Of course as already stated, that will not apply to individual planets who 
have their own law levels and court systems and would not nessisarily follow 
the Imperial example.  IMHO anyway.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:25:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??

James Pearson wrote:
> 
> I'm desparately searching for additional information about the AAB.
> Specifically, I'm wondering what role it plays in the Spinward Marches, circa
> 1120.

The AAB is listed in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia as a 'major scientific
institution  on Vland, collecting samples, specimens and recorded materials
from all over known space.' The IE also mentions the AAB in the same breath as
the Imperial Library as major libraries of the imperium. I do not know if it's
been more thoroughly documented anywhere in canon. (Sionce I don't have Vilani
& Vargr or Aliens:Vilani) The M0 description is longer than any I've seen.

At a guess, it is probably the greatest source of research materials in the
Imperium, as it's been in operation for millenia, longer than any other
institution, certainly longer than any 3I institution. Think the British
Museum, the Smithsonian Museum, the Library of Congress, the Vatican Musem,
The Library at Alexandria (had it never burned) and all the other museums in
the world rolled into one.

A lot of materials were lost in the Long Night in various branches. Presumably
by 1120 most of those have been investigated and what recoverable materials
are left have been recovered. Most likely the vast bulk of that material will
have been transported back to Vland for safekeeping.

The MT encyclopedia also mentions that they sell a 15 holocrystal version of
'The Encyclopedia' "which holds the equivalent of 7500 extensively illustrated
volumes, yet can easily fit in a pocket" (Drool drool!)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 12:35:49 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Lawyers

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> Briefly, Imperial justice is carried out by selected nobles who receive
> the title of "Lord Judge" or "Imperial Judge" in addition to their other
> titles.  Selected means appointed by the appropriate person.  The
> Emperor appoints archdukes and sector dukes to be Lords Judicial.
> Sector dukes may appoint lower Lords Judicial as they see fit, subject
> to the consent of the archduke and Emperor.  The decisions of lower
> Imperial Judges may be appealed to a higher Lord Judge, with the Emperor
> sitting as the highest Imperial Judge and the end of the appellate
> process.  The Emperor in practice doesn't have time both to play judge
> and run an empire, so he or she typically appoints an Imperial High
> Court, consisting of some very high ranking nobles with judicial
> inclinations, scholarly backgrounds, and plenty of money (to make them
> appear less easily corrupted).

This is all YTU, I take it, or are some of these things in Canon?


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:49:18 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: SPOF-yu-lam

Frank Pitt said (a while back -- I got way behind while finishing my
illustrations for _First In_)....

>> Spo-fu-lam Spo as in Spot, fu as in Kung, lam as in 'on the', running
>> from Ditzie and her toys.
>> At least that's how _I_ pronounce it.  >>
>>Ok, what's it mean????
>
>Nothing.  Well, actually it probably does mean something, that's probably
>quite rude, but as far as Traveler is concerned, it's the family name of a
>group of, er, shall we say, "talented" weapon designers who are
>chronologically challenged and extremely dangerous to be in the same sector
>as.

Heh heh.  Ross Coburn and I are probably the only people on this list who
actually *do* know what "Spofulam" means, or at least, where it comes from.
And I think Ross is currently off the TML. Which I guess leaves only me.

Hmmm. Should I leave you hanging? Nah, I suppose that would be cruel...

When Roderick Darroch Elliot (we just call him "Darroch" -- pronounced
"Derick") was introduced to Traveller by Ross, Darroch's first character
was a pilot with a long, five-part name, the initials of which happened to
be S.P.I.F.F.  Yep, he was playing "Spaceman SPIFF".

Then, Ross made a mistake that would prove fatal to untold millions of
sophonts: he let Darroch borrow his copy of FFS.  Mad genius that he is,
Darroch took to the gun-design sequence  like a feline tasting catnip, and
soon the TML was filled with his twisted yet entirely FFS-compliant
riot-discouraging devices, and tailfinned chome-and-pink starships, and
gravitic pogo sticks, and things even more unspeakable.  All proudly
announced by Hengibar, patriarch of the now-infamous Famille Spofulam.
"Spofulam" being, I guess, Darroch's pseudo-Latinization of, you got it,
"Spiff".

And now that Darroch's a lawyer at Canada's oldest law firm, no doubt he'll
sue my butt to the wall for spilling the beans. But he's off the list, so
what he don't know...

Here's a sample of how the man's brain works. Back in December, Ross posted
the following to Darroch and myself, after one of our Traveller sessions:

Ross:

>Either of you have my Referee's Companion?  It's the same size/shape as the
>three MT core books, similar bad cover art, shows a guy on a scout in the
>water about to get et.
>I've been tearing up the apartment looking for it. . . .

Darroch's reply:

> Sorry.  I had to borrow it to use as an exhibit.  I'm trying to use
>it to prove the existence of psionics so I can get my client off on a
>defense of pre-emptive self-defense.

Lord help us all.

Best,

 + GMG +

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in trade paperback from Tor Books
          Watch for _Northern Suns_ in April 1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:06:34 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos

Actually the first two were published.  The first, "The Death of 
Wisdom" might be ordered.  ISBN 1-55878-181-1

Kristian

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Joseph Kimball wrote:
> >
> > I picked up the book To Dream of Chaos at my FLGS yesterday.  I'm into
> > it about 55 pages and enjoying it.  It is part 2 of a trilogy though,
> > and I'm wishing I could find the other two.  Oh well...
> 
> Don't get your hopes up...only the second one was ever published, IIRC.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 13:06:29 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Lawyers

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > That depends on how much credence you give to the Imperial Constitution
> > that appears in Milieu 0.  If you accept it, and I do, then the Imperium has
> > an authority as broad as that of the US Congress to legislate under the
> > Commerce clause of the US Constitution.
>
> It may have the authority -- and I haven't paid much attention to Milieu
> 0 since I bought it -- but in my Traveller universe, it stopped
> exercising it as part of Arbellatra's reforms after the Civil Wars.
> Member states tired of decades of war were inclined to remain within a
> looser empire that provided for the common defense but kept its nose out
> of local affairs.

Interesting idea.  My analysis so far has been abstract and from a Milieu 0
perspective only.

> > I've recently written a couple of pages on this very topic that I will post
> > to my website soon.  Its too long, and probably too dry for the non-legal
> > types, to post here.
>
> Please post the URL when it's up.

Here it is:
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/implaw.htm

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:07:35 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

>In a message dated 3/28/99 8:49:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:

<<
 And yes, I know no one specifically _says_ that they are as numerous as
 the old European nobility, but that's the way they are portrayed in the
 character generation rules and the various adventures...

  >>
>God,  if you take the character generation rules literally, then 1 out of
>every 36 people is a Baron!

Why not just say that it's much more likely that members of the Imperial
Aristocracy are Travellers than bakers, or farmers or used-car salesman.
After all in the Seventeenth century you were much more likely to find a
nobleman among the colonist in Jamestown or among the European Fleets in the
new world than you were to find one in rural France or the in the villages
of the Italian Alps.
A Baron who has income from an estate or business interests is much more
likely to be Travelling offworld than a working stiff with a family.  Many
children of the nobility, who may hold courtesy rank of their own are also
likely to be travelling, either on the Grand Tour or simply to be out from
underfoot (see Remittance Man [GT]).

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 13:13:47 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> Now as I said, by tradition Imperial cases are usually heard by a tribunal
> (3 to 11 judges, 5 to 6 being most common).

Who are the judges?

Some interesting ideas, but I suspect that there would be very little litigation
in YTU.

And I can't really agree with the idea of no depositions.  Thats how a great
deal of investigative work gets done, at least in a society with lots of civil
rights.  And its nothing more answering questions under oath, i.e., penalties
for lying.
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:37:48 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Jesse's Art and SJG

I know SJG's is a gaming company, but they and you, should make some kind of
deal to publish your art in full color in one of those coffee table future
history books that use to be so popular. Get FarFuture Enterprises involved
if necessary and go for it man.  Not only could it be great for you, but it
could put Traveller into places like the Waldens and Barnes & Knobles.  They
really eat that stuff up.
Just a thought.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 12:57:27 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

meow@advancenet.net wrote:

>  I dont remember Mayday
> ever coming in a ziplock bag let alone in the oversized format.
> its unpunched.

The oversized Mayday was an updated version that came out just after the
Starter Traveller boxed set--when GDW was publishing the 8.5x11 boxed
adventures Beltstrike and Tarsus, The Spinward Marches Campaign, and the
Alien Modules.

The original Mayday was in small book format, then this updated 8.5x11
version came out--but it had it's own box and didn't come in a bag.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:32:24 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Drop Tanks was Garbage

>> It's the existence of drop tanks that "proves" that all the jump fuel is
used
>> before jump. Since the tanks are dropped before the ship enters jump
space,
>> any unused fuel would be dropped with them. What dooms drop tanks in the
>> opinion of some people (not including me) is that drop tank equipped
ships
>> are more economic than ships that rely on internal tankage and would
thus,
>> if they existed, crowd out such ships (My opinion is that drop tank
traffic
>> requires a minimum volume to be economic, and is in any case less
flexible.
>> That combined with the fact the drop tanks are a recent invention means,
>> IMO, that they would be found only on major trade routes. Since very few
>> published adventures take place on major trade routes, the lack of
reference
>> to such ships is not a major problem to me.

>I suppose that you could say that drop tanks prove your case, but I can
also
>see where they prove mine.  Admittedly, the only 'canon design I've seen
for
>drop tanks is the Gazelle class, and they only *extend* the range,
according
>to 'Traders & Gunboats', it has a standard J-4 (with tanks), J-5 when it
>drops the tanks, and J-2 on internal tankage only.  So for the extended
Jump
>(where it is dropping the tanks), I would assume that it draws fuel from
the
>tanks first - stores that power in the newly-developed accumulators - drops
>the tanks and switches to internal tanks.  By the time the accumulators
>discharge and the plant supplies the power - the tanks are far enough away
>not to interfere with the formation of the J-field.

I've always assumed that the drops the tanks part was apocryphacal, since it
never appeared in any other OTU source.  I haven't used drop tanks in any
game I've played or GM'd in years. But...when we did use them we only used
them to extend the range of the ships between fuelling.
Do it like so. Figure out the total displacement of the ship and drop tanks
and use that to calculate the maximum jump. The ship jumps with the drop
tanks.  After the jump the drop tanks are empty. Drop them. You now have a
lower displacement ship with the same Jump Engines. If the tanks are big
enough the displacement difference might give greater range on the next
Jump, if not you still have the advantage of being able to more quickly jump
again without having to refuel.  Also good for areas where the distance
between systems are greater than 2 or 3 parsecs.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 11:22:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)

At 09:02 AM 4/3/99 -0500, you wrote:

>The Navy launched airplanes from two zeppelins during the 1930's
>IIRC - the Akron and another.

The Macon, which was the airship based at Moffett NAS.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:09:41 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks was Garbage

>
> I've always assumed that the drops the tanks part was apocryphacal, since it
> never appeared in any other OTU source.  I haven't used drop tanks in any
> game I've played or GM'd in years. But...when we did use them we only used
> them to extend the range of the ships between fuelling.
> Do it like so. Figure out the total displacement of the ship and drop tanks
> and use that to calculate the maximum jump. The ship jumps with the drop
> tanks.  After the jump the drop tanks are empty. Drop them. You now have a
> lower displacement ship with the same Jump Engines. If the tanks are big
> enough the displacement difference might give greater range on the next
> Jump, if not you still have the advantage of being able to more quickly jump
> again without having to refuel.  Also good for areas where the distance
> between systems are greater than 2 or 3 parsecs.

This is exactly how I use them.  I believe this is the TNE way as well.
Likewise, I think that the only thing that drop tanks prove is that the original
designer didn't think about the consequences when he published it.  In any case,
drop tanks are directly analogous to multistage rockets.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 15:52:58 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

Actually, I did see bagged versions of Mayday around, probably 1985
there was one in Campaign Headquarters.  I looked at it, but it just had
the same stuff as my game, so I put it back.  Am I crazy, too?  Could
be.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth Bearden
: >  I dont remember Mayday
: > ever coming in a ziplock bag let alone in the oversized format.
: > its unpunched.
:
: The oversized Mayday was an updated version that came out just after
the
: Starter Traveller boxed set--when GDW was publishing the 8.5x11 boxed
: adventures Beltstrike and Tarsus, The Spinward Marches Campaign, and
the
: Alien Modules.
:
: The original Mayday was in small book format, then this updated 8.5x11
: version came out--but it had it's own box and didn't come in a bag.
:
: Kenneth.
:

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:38:10 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks [long]

Bottom line up front: under GT/FT/VE2 rules, drop tank equipped freighters
can realize significant (~25%) cost savings over conventional designs, but
not enough to automatically compensate for the additional complexity and
restrictions imposed. As always, GM's will have to determine for themselves
whether they are worth the effort.

>Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:51:37 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks and canon (was Re: Garbage)
>
>Fri, 02 Apr 1999 04:57:54 -0700, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>>Has anyone suggested that drop tanks are the Traveller equivalent of
>>lighter-than-air ships? Let's examine the similarities:
>
>They were abandoned because they weren't reliable.  Even without
>the Hindenburg and the Akron (and everyone know that if you
>used helium you didn't have that problem) the problem was that
>everytime bad weather hit you would loose a few.

And they were "unreliable" because they were woefully underpowered for
their size, due to the power-to-weight ratio of the motors available at the
time. This would not be such a problem today.

In fact, the Graf Zeppelin had such a long range that she could fly
completely around bad weather most of the time, and still arrive on schedule.

Moreover, the current loss rate for surface shipping is something like 2-3%
of total hulls *per year* -- everytime bad weather hits we lose a few. But
no one complains that surface ships are unreliable.

>Well, you wouldn't capture the tanks.  You would pay to rent
>them and the system you are leaving from then picks them up,
>refills them, and rents them again.

Someone has to capture them, so you will pay for the service either way. 

[By the way, High Guard says (p. 16), "Such tanks must be replaced each
time they are used," which could be read as they are completely disposable.
But I agree with your interpretation.]

>Also, if they work
>as desribed there is no reason why you have to do it that
>way.  You should be able to just string a pipe (or even a cable)
>from a jump station.

The latest information I have from Marc Miller on jump drives strongly
implies that jump stations will not work:

"Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant,
world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself." [He goes on
later to discuss misjumps from inside 100D, so it's not an absolute
prohibition the way breakout is.]

Thus drop tanks will work, as long as they are smaller than the ship
itself, but jump stations (which are presumably larger than a ship) are an
invitation to misjump.

>Loosing jump tankage gains something like a 30% to 100% increase
>in cargo space.  It also means that high jump ships can be constructed
>by only increasing jump drive size (and jump drives don't take
>much space).  This means that drop tanks increase revenue by up
>to 100% even before you factor in that fact that you can cover
>longer distances in 1/3 of the time (assuming most ships are
>jump-2 as Far Trader does).  I don't see how this can't make
>a big difference in the economics.  It like taking a ships
>and saying you can have six ships at no extra cost....

Let's put some hard numbers to this. I'll take the Tukera 3,000-dton
freighter (FT, p. 139, or The Traveller Adventure, p. 138) and convert it
to a drop tank configuration using GT/VE2 rules. I'm only trying to
increase the cargo capacity right now: replacing ships on existing runs
would be the first step, with longer legs coming later.

Drop tanks are covered on VE2 p. 94-95, under Hardpoints. The first
interesting point is  a limit on the size of drop tanks, based (ultimately)
on the surface area of the vessel and the weight of the tanks. The actual
figures depend on the configuration of the drop tanks themselves (more on
that in a moment), but are generally:

Tonnage	Max Jump (from drop tanks alone)
100		6
200		6
300		6
400		6
600		5
800		5
1000		5
1200		4
2000		3
3000		3
4000		2
5000		2
10000		1
15000		1
20000		1
30000		1
50000		1
100000		0

So our 3,000-dton freighter can only get Jump-3 from drop tanks; the other
Jump-1 has to be carried internally. This is still an improvement. The
revised design is:

	Design: 3,000-dton USL Hull, DR 100, Hardpoints for 3 400-ston pods,
Command Bridge, Engineering, 135 Maneuver, 150 Jump, 300 Jump Fuel, 5 Low
Berth (capacity 20), 25 Staterooms, Sickbay, 6 Utility, Vehicle Bay
(100-dton Shuttle), 10 Turrets (two armed with one 360 Mj laser, one
missile rack and one sandcaster each), 2,184.5 Cargo (+24 in turrets), 25
Spacedock/Hangar (included in cargo hold).
	Statistics: EMass 2,614.9 stons, LMass 13,537.4 stons, LMass (w/tanks)
14,737.4. Cost (w/o tanks): MCr 639.2. 120,000 hit points. PD 4, Hull Size
Modifier +11.
	Performance: Jump-4 with drop tanks, Jump-1 without; 0.92g/1.00g/5.16g
(tanks/loaded/empty).

Cargo hold goes from 1,312.5 to 2,184.5 -- an increase of 66%. Crew
increases by one drive hand.

The drop tanks themselves have to be designed as pods; they require
structure, but not armor. This is in keeping with CT and the vulnerability
of drop tanks to damage. Military vessels would require armored drop tanks,
which will restrict the values on the table above even further. 

The freighter requires 900 dtons of drop tank. I'll use three of the
300-dton hulls from GT:Star Mercs (p. 67) and 300 jump fuel modules each:
400 stons and MCr 50.4 per tank. Note that this is significantly more
expensive than High Guard (MCr 0.3 each). They will rent for Cr50,400 per
day, or Cr2,100 per hour each (total Cr6,300 per hour).

We will need a tug to chase after the freighter, catch the expended drop
tanks, and carry them back to be refilled and reused. Rather than design a
separate tug, I will use the 800-dton tug from FT p. 138, which rents for
Cr6,336 per hour. We will also need a crew to service and reattach the
tanks, which I will treat as containerized cargo handling: Cr3,600 total.

Using the same model we used to arrive at the actual per dton per jump
costs in FT, it turns out that the drop-tank freighter saves about 22% over
the cost of the original (the actual numbers involve variables and
assumptions that are not pertinent here). This is significant but hardly
dominant: it does not even bring the cost of Jump-4 (express) service down
to the level of ordinary Jump-2/3 freight. The tradeoff, as with LASH
operations, is additional complexity. Note also that this presupposes that
the fixed base portions (tugs, crews, tanks) are constantly in use; if
there is too little traffic for this, their cost goes up enormously.

As John Macpherson pointed out, drop tanks are a highly specialized system,
largely restricted to main trade routes by the requirement for on-orbit
servicing capabilities. The limitations imposed by GURPS rules further
reduce their utility, especially for large vessels, both commercial and
military.



 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:36:58 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Economics of drop tanks (Was: Garbage)

David P. Summers writes:

>Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:35:25 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
>>David, what evidence do you have that this isn't happening? That it
>>hasn't been mentioned anywhere? How many adventures can you think of
>>where it is odd that drop tank equipped ships isn't mentioned? Most
>>adventures only mention that which is immidiately relevant. Far Trader
>>deals with free traders, which means _marginal_ trading.
> 
>Well, Far Trader does it in a comprehensive manner, after all,
>it works up from thing like what is the trade volume between
>worlds, etc.   I do think the jump-tanks would mean it
>would have to reworked.

Fair enough. I'll have to defer that argument until I get my copy of Far
Trader (which, unless things change at SJG, may take many months).
 
>I also think, that if they exist there are quite a number of places where
>it wuold be odd that a drop tanks ship wasn't used.

Certainly. I agree completely. You'd expect to see jump-6 drop liners
jumping between Rhylanor and Mora (via Heroni), for instance. But how many
places have you seen described in adventures and other writeups where it is
actually ODD that they aren't mentioned?

>It also, IMO, has a ripple affect and the gains in losses in economics
>due to them should be affecting who the PC see running things, etc. 

Like who? What I'm asking for are canonical examples.

>It also means that PC should, if they travel on commercial ships, be
>leaving from jump stations.

Sure. If my players ever needed to get from Mora to Rhylanor and didn't
have a ship, they'd be travelling by drop liner. That's IMTU. But what
EVIDENCE do you have that they wouldn't do the same in the OTU?

>What happens there?  Does it eliminate piracy like Ian (?) claims?

Let's not go there, right? Since I believe piracy would be almost non-
existent WITHOUT drop stations, I don't think it would be a good idea
for us to reopen that line of argument, do you? ;-)

>Do the PC get hired by General Shipyards because they are rich from them
>or by Oberlindes because they are poor? 

The only adventure I recall where either Oberlindes or GS hired any PCs,
Oberlindes did it because they had a ship.

>Has GS become so powerful that they monopolize shipping to the point that
>even Free Traders have to cowtow to them?

No. GS got dumped from the drop liner project because of quality control
issues.

>...Is the threat of a Zhodani war gone becuase the Imperium has them?

No. Why should it be? If anything, warfare is one of the factors that
count against drop stations, since they are more vulnerable to raids.

>Do the Sword Wolrds not try and take back the border worlds for the same
>reason?

The Sword Worlds don't need a new reason to WANT to take back the border
worlds, and they don't have the strength to do it with or without the
existence of drop tanks.

>It the PCs are running a trader, how does drop tanks
>ships affect their competition?

Most PCs operate between systems where drop freight service is not
available.
 
>If you think about it (and people will) questions are going to come up. 
>If they aren't dealt with, it will seem odd and make the setting hokey.

Agreed. That's why I want the questions explored. If I could think of
a good adventure where a drop liner was an integral factor (and not just
a paste-on), I'd like to write it.

>They also have the problem in that they firmly establish that jump fuel
>can be converted to power and should be usable for other purposes.

They're not alone in that. The MT material is pretty explicit on that
point without mentioning drop tanks at all.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #396
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, April 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 397



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop tanks and canon
Re: Mayday Edition Question
Re: SPOF-yu-lam
Re: Drop tanks and canon
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: Mayday Edition Question
fleet Jumps 
Re: Drop tanks and canon
T4 Destoyer
Re: SPOF-yu-lam
Misjumps
Re: fleet Jumps 
Chaos...
Re: Mayday Edition Question
Re: SPOF-yu-lam
Re: Chaos...
Re: Misjumps
The Black Curtain
Leviathan Question
Re: Mayday Edition Question
Re: Misjumps (Background)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 01:14:48 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks and canon

David P. Summers writes:

>Fri, 02 Apr 1999 04:57:54 -0700, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>>I'm not the economic expert (that's John), but I don't see where drop tanks
>>_by_themselves_ make all that much difference. We ran the numbers for
>>several different scenarios -- LASH frieghters, farports, SL vs. USL
>>freighters -- and they all came out very much the same. Jump masking had a
>>much more profound impact on commercial operations, which is why I ran it
>>by Marc Miller for confirmation before putting it in.
>>
>>Fuel is not all that significant an expense, even when you calculate cargo
>>volume lost to internal tankage. Time is significant, as in the number of
>>jumps a given ship can make in a year. With drop tanks, you'd be simply
>>trading overhead and time (capturing and remounting drop tanks) for
>>additional range. In the cases where that would be useful, I can't see that
>>it invalidates any of the underlying assumptions we made about trade and
>>commerce in the Imperium.
> 
>Loosing jump tankage gains something like a 30% to 100% increase in cargo
>space.  It also means that high jump ships can be constructed by only
>increasing jump drive size (and jump drives don't take much space). This
>means that drop tanks increase revenue by up to 100% even before you factor
>in that fact that you can cover longer distances in 1/3 of the time
>(assuming most ships are jump-2 as Far Trader does). I don't see how this
>can't make a big difference in the economics.  It like taking a ships
>and saying you can have six ships at no extra cost....

While I suspect that Jim and Christopher underestimate the potential impact
of drop tanks, I'm positive that you are overestimating it. For one thing,
the increase in capacity is not a factor six. For another, the increase is
only useful if you have a route with enough traffic so that you can utilize
the increase in capacity. And thirdly, long distance trade goes from being
cheapest PER PARSEC with jump-3 to jump-6, but getting something from six
parsecs away is still going to be more expensive than getting it from one
parsec away. So the greatest number of ships are still going to be jump-1
and jump-2 where the impact is least.

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) writes:

>It's just David's arguments that seem particularly lacking (and he's the
>only vocal one I find on that side of the fence, though Hans tends towards
>there, too, i think), to me.

No, no, Gary, it's only when you're WRONG that I'm on the opposite side of
the fence from you ;-).
 
>Very very interesting.  What is jump masking?  
 
The change in jump mechanics that makes any solid object between the two
end points of a jump (in real space) force the ship to precipitate out at
the object. Until Far Trader a ship ignored all such and only had to worry
about the 100 diameter limit of the departure and destination world.

>>That might buy you a year or two.  Maybe less since they are
>>suppose to be in use in the interior without incident now....
> 
>What do you base that on?  Your numbers are just much a WAG as mine.  Hans 
>is good w/ #s and calculating things, though I don't always agree w/ his 
>conclusions, at least they have some objectivity there.  What do you say, 
>Hans?  How long, assuming no more catastrophic events and/or a public 
>backlash against drop tanks?

It would depend on a lot of assumptions, though they would all boil down
to the same questions: 1) How much time would it cost a ship to mount
drop tanks when it arrives in a new system, and 2) How much will it
increase the per ton cost of fuel? This will IMO give you a number of
systems (the low-traffic ones) where drop tank service will never
outperform ordinary service. Then you have to consider how much the
loss of flexibility will affect the issue (and I find it difficult to
imagine just how you would establish that). Finally you'd have a period
of time where no new normal ships were being build, but where those that
already exist will still be competing.

>>That has been done.  TNS presented them with working prototypes
>>and stated they had been in use for a dozen years.
> 
>Well i'm going off've Behind the Claw here, but it mentions that 1105 was the 
>*first* use of drop tanks commercially.

_Behind the Claw_ is wrong. Not only does the TNS newsbrief David refer to
specifically state that drop tanks has been in operation in the interior,
but simple logic will tell you that if Tukera planned to extend drop liner
service TO Regina, then it must have somewhere to extend it FROM. (Which,
incidentally, provides us with a problem, because the nearest system
likely to already have drop liners is Rhylanor, and Rhylanor is more than
six parsecs from Regina. Logically there ought to be a system in between
where the liner can get drop tanks; unfortunately there's no suitable
system with a Class A or B starport in between the two. So apparently
Tukera must have been shipping drop tanks to some system in between, which
can't help but increase the cost. Still, it's a minor problem). 

>A couple notable disasters, as Christopher Thrash has pointed out, would
>easily push them back decades, and is conceivable for centuries.

I have to agree with David here. Drop tanks would, IMO, grow rapidly along
certain trade routes. I just don't agree with him that it's a problem.

>Why did we not see a BB equiped w/ drop tanks in Fighting Ships?

Real life explanation: Because the authors didn't think of it.
In-game explanation: Because _Fighting Ships_ didn't contain more than a
small fraction of all designs.
Alternate real life explanation: Because _Shattered Ships of the Fighting
Imperium_ stank. (Note: This last is hearsay. Same hearsay is why I never
bought the book, which I guess is also why it is still hearsay ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:18:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

Sword Worlder wrote:
> 
> Actually, I did see bagged versions of Mayday around, probably 1985
> there was one in Campaign Headquarters.  I looked at it, but it just had
> the same stuff as my game, so I put it back.  Am I crazy, too?  Could
> be.

Last year when Marc was selling the 'grab bags' of material, one of the things
in mine was a bagged copy of Mayday. I just figured that they ran out of boxes
first in the print run.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:24:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SPOF-yu-lam

Glenn Grant wrote:

> Darroch's reply:
> 
> > Sorry.  I had to borrow it to use as an exhibit.  I'm trying to use
> >it to prove the existence of psionics so I can get my client off on a
> >defense of pre-emptive self-defense.
> 
> Lord help us all.

<speeew>

 Oh damn....ANOTHER keyboard!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:33:35 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks and canon

> >Very very interesting.  What is jump masking?
>
> The change in jump mechanics that makes any solid object between the two
> end points of a jump (in real space) force the ship to precipitate out at
> the object. Until Far Trader a ship ignored all such and only had to worry
> about the 100 diameter limit of the departure and destination world.

Ack!  Are you saying that now a ship has to plot a linear course, which does
not intersect with any other body?  (Including other ships, comets,
asteroids, etc?)  I would think that this would be extraordinarily difficult
to do, BTW.

If so, is this to be part of Traveller canon, or is it an optional rule?

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 01:35:57 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

> Terry C writes:

>>In a message dated 3/28/99 8:49:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk
>>writes:
> 
><<
> And yes, I know no one specifically _says_ that they are as numerous as
> the old European nobility, but that's the way they are portrayed in the
> character generation rules and the various adventures...
> 
>  >>
>>God,  if you take the character generation rules literally, then 1 out of
>>every 36 people is a Baron!
> 
>Why not just say that it's much more likely that members of the Imperial
>Aristocracy are Travellers than bakers, or farmers or used-car salesman.

But as I've pointed out several times, the various adventures and
supplements makes it just as likely that bakers, farmers, and used-car
salesmen are Imperial nobles. Or if not those, then doctors, bureaucrats,
soldiers, sailors, and others.

>After all in the Seventeenth century you were much more likely to find a
>nobleman among the colonist in Jamestown or among the European Fleets in the
>new world than you were to find one in rural France or the in the villages
>of the Italian Alps.

But how likely were you to find a king or an emperor? Or even just princes?
No doubt there were some (princes, I mean, not kings and emperors), but I
don't think it quite amounted to 3%. You see, that's one of the problems
with the fact that Imperial noblemen have titles that LOOKS like those we
are familiart with from history. But an Imperial Marquis is often a world
ruler. That's more powerful than any man in the history of Earth has ever
been. How many of those would you expect to run into in your average days'
travelling?

>A Baron who has income from an estate or business interests is much more
>likely to be Travelling offworld than a working stiff with a family.  Many
>children of the nobility, who may hold courtesy rank of their own are also
>likely to be travelling, either on the Grand Tour or simply to be out from
>underfoot (see Remittance Man [GT]).

But how many of them are likely to be serving as enlisted men or customs
inspectors?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:11:30 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

Kenneth Bearden  <dreamer@brokersys.com> replies:

>meow@advancenet.net wrote:
>
>>  I dont remember Mayday
>> ever coming in a ziplock bag let alone in the oversized format.
>> its unpunched.
>
>The oversized Mayday was an updated version that came out just after the
>Starter Traveller boxed set--when GDW was publishing the 8.5x11 boxed
>adventures Beltstrike and Tarsus, The Spinward Marches Campaign, and the
>Alien Modules.
>
>The original Mayday was in small book format, then this updated 8.5x11
>version came out--but it had it's own box and didn't come in a bag.
>

 Funny, because I also have one in this form. The only date I found is 1978.

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 19:31:18 -0500
From: Alan Chambers <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: fleet Jumps 

Christopher Thrash wrote:
The latest information I have from Marc Miller on jump drives strongly
implies that jump stations will not work:

"Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant,
world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself." [He goes on
later to discuss misjumps from inside 100D, so it's not an absolute
prohibition the way breakout is.]

I guess this puts an end to fleets jumping together.
Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:28:42 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks and canon

- ----------
> From: Thad K. Sneed <revtks@apex2000.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Drop tanks and canon
> Date: Saturday, 03 April, 1999 6:33 PM
> 
> Ack!  Are you saying that now a ship has to plot a linear course, which
does
> not intersect with any other body?  (Including other ships, comets,
> asteroids, etc?)  I would think that this would be extraordinarily
difficult
> to do, BTW.
> 
> If so, is this to be part of Traveller canon, or is it an optional rule?
> 

It's GURPS.  Everything is optional.

However, IIRC, it's based on things Marc Miller has published in JTAS, so
it's at least semi-canonical.  In general, it seems that you can ignore
objects in interstellar space, and ignore relatively small objects.  Far
Trader only calculates jump masking for system primaries, I believe.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:36:16 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: T4 Destoyer

Comments welcomed...this is my first attempt at a 10,000 ton military ship.

Archer Class Destoyer

Statistics-
10,000 tons displacement  (140,000 m^3)
SL Needle Hypersonic
Mass:  166667t/162739t (L/C)
Dimensions:  376.9m x 38m x 38m
Size:  10
Crew:  241/285
Passengers:  0/0
Troops:  0
Frozen Watch:  0
Cargo:  30std
Cost:  29,650.178 MCr
Tech Level:  15

Electronics -
Controls:  Holographic, High Automation  3xFib (CM: 0.25  CP: 4.0)
Commo:  3x Radio (1000AU)  6x Laser (1000AU)
Sensors:  1x PEMS (14 50mkm)  1x AEMS (12 1.6mkm)  10x LIDAR (14.5 500kkm)
ECM: 1x Radio Jammer (1000AU)  1x Area Jammer (11)  1x Deceptive (12)
           1x Passive Jammer (15)
Signatures:  Vis: -0.5  IR: -0.5  Act: 0.5  Neu: 0  Grav: 1

Weaponry -
4 Batteries of 5 Laser Barbettes  (T4 10-10-10-10)  (BL Pen 1/16,
50-50-50-50 ROF 400)
Master Fire Directors provided to fire each Barbette independently

6x 100ton Laser Bay (T4 15-15-15-15)  (BL Pen 1/21, 66-66-66-66 ROF 400)

1x Heavy Spinal Meson  (T4 10-10-10-10)  (BL 502-502-502-456)

All weapons have hex ranges of 10-20-40-80

Defences-
800 PV Meson Screen (400 MW)
Armor:  80 [550] Stucture 41

Performance-
Jump 3 (1000std per)
Maneuver:  6g
Contra Grav: 1g
5000kph/5000kph Atmosphere (Cruise 3750kph/3750kph)
16 Power (Fusion 81200MW, 1yr)
3580 Fuel (Scoop: 9, Purification: 14)
Accomodations 0/162/1/0
1100 Life Support
6g compensation

100x Airlock
1x Electronics Shop
1x Sickbay
1x Machine Shop
1x Full Galley (300 cap, with food storage: excellent)
1x Min Hangar 20std

Description/Notes
I designed this ship with Andrew Akins spreadsheet.
The Archer Class is designed entirely with beam weapons for missile defense
and suppression.  Her Barbettes may be fired independantly, and each have a
dedicated MFD for increased range and accuracy.  The beam weapons also
require less supply support, so the Archer should be suitable for extended
missons.  (I tweaked the lasers and armor for best results under Brilliant
Lances, so the T4 numbers are a bit off...)
The Archer's Meson weapon, along with her Laser Bays, should give her a
significant punch against other ships in her size range.


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 19:43:59 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: SPOF-yu-lam

Anybody remember the address of that water-proof keyboard manufacturer?
I think it may be a good stock to invest in!

Got me too!

Mike

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Glenn Grant wrote:
> 
> > Darroch's reply:
> >
> > > Sorry.  I had to borrow it to use as an exhibit.  I'm trying to use
> > >it to prove the existence of psionics so I can get my client off on a
> > >defense of pre-emptive self-defense.
> >
> > Lord help us all.
> 
> <speeew>
> 
>  Oh damn....ANOTHER keyboard!

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 20:15:53 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Misjumps

What EXACTLY is a misjump?
Is it just the wild incident flinging your ship off to some
indeterminate location?
Or does a misjump include any of those jump malfunctions, time
dilations, extended distance from your destination world, explosion,
etc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:23:28 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: fleet Jumps 

- ----------
> From: Alan Chambers <alanross@bellsouth.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: fleet Jumps 
> Date: Saturday, 03 April, 1999 7:31 PM
> 
> Christopher Thrash wrote:
> The latest information I have from Marc Miller on jump drives strongly
> implies that jump stations will not work:
> 
> "Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant,
> world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself." [He goes on
> later to discuss misjumps from inside 100D, so it's not an absolute
> prohibition the way breakout is.]
> 
> I guess this puts an end to fleets jumping together.

Not really.  An Azhanti High Lightening (for example), is about 400 meters
long (per Supplement 5).  If we use this figure as the effective diameter
of the ship (a very conservative estimate) ships must have a 40 km
separation for a safe jump.  In space, this is next to nothing.  A single
30,000 km Brilliant Lances hex or 16,000 km GT hex could contain literally
hundreds of ships at this interval, However, they won't bunch up this
closely in a normal fleet formation.  I'd expect typical separations in the
hundreds if not thousands of km.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:49:38 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Chaos...

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:07:43 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos
>
> Joseph Kimball wrote:
> >
> > I picked up the book To Dream of Chaos at my FLGS yesterday.  I'm into
> > it about 55 pages and enjoying it.  It is part 2 of a trilogy though,
> > and I'm wishing I could find the other two.  Oh well...
>
> Don't get your hopes up...only the second one was ever published, IIRC.

Nope.  Both the first and second one's were published.

Not wanting to start a war here but think carefully about what you said there.  Did
Tolkien publish The Two Towers first?  Did Empire Strikes Back come out first?  No,
no one publishes the second book of a trilogy first...  Doesn't make sence.

> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:06:34 -0800
> From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
> Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos
>
> Actually the first two were published.  The first, "The Death of
> Wisdom" might be ordered.  ISBN 1-55878-181-1

<Elvis Mode>
Ahhh  Thank you, thank you very much....
</Elvis Mode>

DS

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 18:34:57 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

>From: meow@advancenet.net
>Subject: Mayday Edition Question
>
>while helping a friend go through the personal effects/game 
>collection of a co-worker, we ran accross something I thought was 
>odd. a copy of Mayday in a ziplock bag, and its the oversized 
>format like that used for Deluxe Traveller. I dont remember Mayday
>ever coming in a ziplock bag let alone in the oversized format.
>its unpunched.

  AFAIK, that's the version being currently inventoried by Mr. Miller,
for $15 US:     <FarFuture@aol.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:09:14 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: SPOF-yu-lam

*WHAM*  "Hey, what'd you hit me for?" "you were about to hit me!"

Hmmm...

Nup, sorry, doesn't wash :)

Although, if the WHAM is big enough, the rest doesn't take place...  Where'd
I leave my FGMP?

M.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Sunday, 4 April 1999 12:43
Subject: Re: SPOF-yu-lam


> Anybody remember the address of that water-proof keyboard manufacturer?
> I think it may be a good stock to invest in!
>
> Got me too!
>
> Mike
>
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >
> > Glenn Grant wrote:
> >
> > > Darroch's reply:
> > >
> > > > Sorry.  I had to borrow it to use as an exhibit.  I'm trying to use
> > > >it to prove the existence of psionics so I can get my client off on a
> > > >defense of pre-emptive self-defense.
> > >
> > > Lord help us all.
> >
> > <speeew>
> >
> >  Oh damn....ANOTHER keyboard!
>
> --
> Mike Peters
> travelleri@home.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:29:27 -0600
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Chaos...

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>

> Not wanting to start a war here but think carefully about what you said
there.  Did
> Tolkien publish The Two Towers first?  Did Empire Strikes Back come out
first?  No,
> no one publishes the second book of a trilogy first...  Doesn't make
sence.

Be careful of the examples you use...the _entire_ Star Wars Trilogy is the
second of a series of trilogies.  The new Stars Wars movie(s) take place
before the second set.   (That's why they're being called "prequels.")  So
whether or not it makes sense, sometimes the second (movie/book) _is_
presented first.

(I don't want to enter into warfare, either ;-)

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 22:16:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

At 08:15 PM 4/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>What EXACTLY is a misjump?
>Is it just the wild incident flinging your ship off to some
>indeterminate location?
>Or does a misjump include any of those jump malfunctions, time
>dilations, extended distance from your destination world, explosion,
>etc.

In short, yes.

The canonical misjump throws the ship anywhere between 1 and 36 parsecs in
a random direction.  Time dialation is also a common problem, with jumps
lasting much longer than the usual 168 hours.

Mis-jumps are yours to play with.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:20:15 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: The Black Curtain

I've recently begun GMing TNE, and I'm very puzzled as to what is in
the Black Curtain.

There are references to the RC eventually entering the area, but no
details on what it contains.

Can anyone help satiate my curiosity, or point me in the direction of
an answer on the web?

I HAVE checked the FAQ, and done searches on HotBot etc. but no joy...
:(

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:27:32 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Leviathan Question

Has anyone done a ray-traced version of the leviathan from Adventure 4?

I remember, when I was a child, being taken to the celebrated Barnum's
Circus, which contained an exhibition of freaks and monstrosities. But the
exhibit on the programme that I most desired to see was the one described as
"The Boneless Wonder". My parents judged that the spectacle would be too
revolting and too demoralizing for my youthful eyes, and I waited fifty
years to see the Boneless Wonder sitting on the Treasury Bench.

Winston Churchill, 1933

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:36:16 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

In a message dated 4/3/99 9:40:43 PM Central Daylight Time, 
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:

<< >while helping a friend go through the personal effects/game 
 >collection of a co-worker, we ran accross something I thought was 
 >odd. a copy of Mayday in a ziplock bag, and its the oversized 
 >format like that used for Deluxe Traveller. I dont remember Mayday
 >ever coming in a ziplock bag let alone in the oversized format.
 >its unpunched. >>

Mayday was originally published in the ziplock format (as were several other 
GDW small games: 1942, Guilford Courthouse, etc). Later, Mayday was sold in a 
6 x 9 x 2 box, and still later in a 9 x 12 x 1 box.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:43:10 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Misjumps (Background)

Draft material from T5 / Marc Miller


In a message dated 4/3/99 8:22:38 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jpettit@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< What EXACTLY is a misjump? Is it just the wild incident flinging your ship 
off to some  indeterminate location?  Or does a misjump include any of those 
jump malfunctions, time  dilations, extended distance from your destination 
world, explosion, etc.   >>

JUMPING
Jump allows a ship to travel faster than the speed of light by entering 
jumpspace. Ships in jumpspace are completely out of communication with the 
common universe, or with other ships in jumpspace.

BASIC PERFORMANCE
	Jump takes time, energy, and the appropriate drive.
	Jump Ranges. The jump drives for a ship determine how far it can 
jump. Jump capacity can range from 1 to 6 (which is possible range in 
parsecs). A ship can make a jump equal to or less than its jump capacity. A 
ship with Jump-1 can travel one parsec in about a week; a ship with jump-6 
can travel six parsecs in about a week.
	Jump Time. All jumps take about a week: 168 hours plus or minus about 
10%. Time spent in jump has no relation to the distance travelled.
	Equivalent Speed. A ship which jumps one parsec in one week travels 
170 times the speed of light.

	Jump	Approximately:
	1	160 to   180 x speed of light
	2	320 to   360 x
	3	480 to   540 x
	4	640 to   720 x
	5	800 to   900 x
	6	960 to 1000 x

	Astrogation. A jump must be planned before it is executed; this 
planning is the duty of the astrogator. Planning a jump involved plotting a 
straight line course from the jump point to the breakout point.
	Restrictions. Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body 
(star, gas giant, world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself.
	If a plotted course intersects a 100 diameter sphere around any 
object larger than the ship, the ship is "precipitated out" of jump space.
	In System Jumps. It is possible to jump within a star system: The 
jump still takes a week (168 hours or so). In some cases, the jump is more 
efficient than using maneuver drive.

JUMP POINTS
	The location at which a ship enters jump space is called a Jump 
Point. There are technically an infinite number of Jump Points, but some are 
more efficient that others. Jump Points must meet certain criteria.
	Outside the 100 Diameter Sphere. A jump point must be at least 100 
diameters from every astral body (star, planet, gas giant, planetoid, or 
other object).
	In Vacuum/ Space. By inference, a jump point which is outside the 100 
diameter sphere is in vacuum.	

BREAKOUT
	A ship may exit jump space in two ways: at or near the point planned 
for, or at a point where the straight line course crosses a 100 diameter 
sphere.
	The Planned Breakout Point. The course plotted by the Astrogator may 
include a predicted point for breakout. A successful jump will carry a ship 
to that predicted breakout point within about 100,000 km. Breakout points are 
commonly used in naval operations when maneuvers take ships to locations 
relatively removed from astral bodies.

	Natural Safeguards. The physics of jump space force a ship out of 
jump space when it crosses the 100-Diameter Sphere. As a result, a ship 
cannot exit jump space within a world, planetoid, star, or even another ship.

WHAT IS OUTSIDE THE SHIP?
	Jump space reflects an alternative universe in which the laws of 
physics are vastly different from those of the common universe. The jump 
drive forces the ship into that universe (where it can travel greater 
distances in less time) but it also protects the ship and its interior from 
those alien laws of physics.
	Jump space is destructive to matter and deadly to life.

FOR SIMPLICITY
	In most cases, a jump can be described as a successful movement from 
one star system to another. It takes about a week. Travel from the StartWorld 
to the Jump Point takes about a day; travel from the Jump Point to the 
DestinationWorld also takes about a day.
	Only if circumstances require should the details of jump be 
implemented.

TIME TO BREAKOUT
	A typical jump takes about a week (168 hours). The actual time spent 
is random. Military ships can take slightly less time on average.
	Squadron Maneuvers. Highly tuned drives in a squadron of ships, along 
with highly trained crews, can make their emergence from jump very close to 
the same time (within about a 5 hour window).

DETECTION
	Ships entering and leaving jump space can be detected.
	Entering Jump: A ship entering jump disappears from detector screens. 
There is a pulse of energy which is detectable to PRadar. 
	Leaving Jump. A ship leaving jump emits a pulse of energy which is 
detectable to PRadar.
	In Jump: A ship in jump cannot be detected. A ship in jump is 
incapable of detecting anything also in jump, or outside of jump.

JUMP ASTROGATION
	The Astrogators responsibility is to determine a usable course and 
to plot it with the help of the ships computer. All calculation takes place 
before the jump begins.

BASIC PROCEDURE
	Astrogation procedures depend on a task for successful completion of 
the Astrogation task.

To plot a Jump (12 hours)
Edu + Astrogation < Formidable (3D)
Uncertain (3D).
Requires ships computer.

	Astrogation tasks may be performed as Cautious; Hasty, or Extra Hasty.
	Astrogation Failure. Astrogation failure causes a misexit from jump. 
Roll on the Misexit column of the Jump Mishap Effects table when the ship 
emerges from jump. It emerges at a random location at the 100D Sphere of a 
gas giant, world, or planetoid between the start point and the intended 
destination.

 JUMPING
	When a jump is attempted, the game master rolls 4D privately.
	Operational Faults. Jump drive or power plant failure, or jump within 
the 100 diameter sphere can cause a misjump. Roll on the Misjump column of 
the Jump Mishap Effects table when the ship emerges from jump.

MISJUMPS
	A misjump occurs when the drive fails during the jump process, or 
when a jump is attempted within the 100 diameter sphere around a body.
	No Jump. The jump does not take place. The drive fails to engage. 
Everyone involved knows immediately.
	Misdirected Jump. The ship emerges from jump space in an unintended 
location, usually far in distance and location from the intended exit point 
(this differs from a misexit).

 JUMP EFFECTS
	4D	Effect
	20	Ordinary Jump
	21	Ordinary Jump
	22	Ordinary Jump
	22-	Ordinary Jump
	23	No Jump
	24+	Misjump
		DM +1 for every 10 uses of unrefined fuel since the drives 
last annual maintenance.
	DM +3 if unrefined fuel is being used in the current jump.
	DM +1 for each 10 D within the 100D Sphere.
	DM - Chief Engineer Skill.
	DM - Reliability. Subtracting + (Good) Reliability reduces the die 
roll; Subtracting - (Bad) Reliability increases the die roll). Negative 
Reliability produces a greater chance of the die roll exceeding 24+.
	DM -5 if Naval Grade Drives.
 
 JUMP MISHAP EFFECTS
		Misexit	Misjump	Direction	Distance	Destination	
Drive	Drive	Premature
	2D	Effects	Effects	Fault	Fault	Fault	Strain	Disaster	
Exit
	2	Premature Exit	Failed Jump	3	2D	Early x3	
P-Plant Fault	Overload	Near Planetoid
	3	Premature Exit	Failed Jump	2	3D	Early x2	
P-Plant Fault	3 Fault	Near Planetoid
	4	Premature Exit	Direction Fault	1	4D	Early x1	
P-Plant Fault	3 Faults	Near World
	5	Premature Exit	D&D	2	3D	Lateral x1	
P-Plant Fault	3 Faults	Near Gas Giant
	6	Premature Exit	D&D	3	2D	Lateral x2	
Misalignment	2 Faults	Space Planetoid
	7	Destination Fault	D&D	4	1D	Lateral x3	
Misalignment	1 Fault	Space Gas Giant
	8	Destination Fault	D&D	5	2D	Lateral x2	
Misalignment	2 Faults	Space World
	9	Destination Fault	D&D	6	3D	Lateral x1	
J-Drive Fault	3 Faults	Far Gas Giant
	10	Destination Fault	Distance Fault -	1	4D	
Late x1	J-Drive Fault	3 Faults	Far World
	11	Destination Fault	Drive Strain	6	3D	Late 
x2	J-Drive Fault	3 Faults	Far Planetoid
	12	Destination Fault	Disaster	5	2D	Late 
x3	J-Drive Fault	3 Faults	Far Planetoid
			DM +1 for each			
			10D inside the		
			100D Sphere.

 	D&D. Roll on both the Direction Fault column and the Distance Fault 
column.
	Destination Fault. Roll on the Destination Fault column.
	Disaster. Roll once on the Drive Disaster column.
	Distance Fault. The result is the number of parsecs the ship jumps.
	Direction Fault. On a hexagonal rosette, 1 is the intended course 
direction, and the remaining results are imposed consecutively clockwise.
	Drive Strain. The jump drive of the ship experiences forces which may 
prompt a future failure.
	Drive Strain. The ship suffers damage to its drive(s). Roll once on 
the Drive Strain column.
	Early xN. The ship emerges early on its intended course. N is 
	Failed Jump. The ship enters jump space, but emerges (after about a 
week) in the same place it started at.
	Far Planetoid/World/Gas Giant.
	Far. The misexit is in the destination system.
	J-Drive Fault
	Late xN.  
	Lateral xN. 
	Misalignment
	Near Planetoid/World/Gas Giant.
	Near. The misexit is in the originating system.
	Overload
	P-Plant Fault
	Premature Exit. Roll once on the Premature Exit column.
	Space Planetoid/World/Gas Giant.
	Space. The misexit is in deep space. The ship has exited near a 
solitary world (or a comet, or an odd chunk of rock) in deep space between 
major systems.

	A Failed Jump and a Misdirected Jump are indistinguishable before the 
ship exits jump space.
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #397
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Sunday, April 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 398



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Mayday Edition Question
Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite
Re: Jump Stations
Drop Tanks was Garbage
Re: Chaos and the Black Curtian...
Re: Drop tanks
Mayday Versions 
Re: Drop tanks (long)
Far Trader Economics
Re: Far Trader Economics
Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)
Civil Debate: [was Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)]
Re: fleet Jumps
Re: Mayday Versions 
World Builder deluxe V4.0
Re: Drop tanks (was: Garbage) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:44:08 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

In a message dated 4/3/99 7:21:53 PM Central Daylight Time, 
GypsyComet@aol.com writes:

<< >The original Mayday was in small book format, then this updated 8.5x11
 >version came out--but it had it's own box and didn't come in a bag.
 >
  >>
The ziplock came first.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:50:50 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMTU Jump Space FAQ webite

In a message dated 4/2/99 10:36:51 AM Central Daylight Time, 
electric-stitch@w-link.net writes:

<< IMTU it's possible to [j]ump and not actually go anywhere. There doesn't 
have
 to be any 3rd dimensional movement. I believe this is backed up by canon.  >>

You are correct... canon allows a jump which arrives at the start point.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:35:22 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Re: Jump Stations

> Christopher Thrash wrote:
> The latest information I have from Marc Miller on jump drives strongly
> implies that jump stations will not work:
> 
> "Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant,
> world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself."

  So use beamed power: As long as the reciever equipment is 
smaller than a jump drive it is still a gain.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:46:58 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Drop Tanks was Garbage

In reply to:


>I suppose that you could say that drop tanks prove your case, but I can
also
>see where they prove mine.  Admittedly, the only 'canon design I've seen
for
>drop tanks is the Gazelle class, and they only *extend* the range,
according
>to 'Traders & Gunboats', it has a standard J-4 (with tanks), J-5 when it
>drops the tanks, and J-2 on internal tankage only.  So for the extended
Jump
>(where it is dropping the tanks), I would assume that it draws fuel from
the
>tanks first - stores that power in the newly-developed accumulators - drops
>the tanks and switches to internal tanks.  By the time the accumulators
>discharge and the plant supplies the power - the tanks are far enough away
>not to interfere with the formation of the J-field.

I wrote:

I've always assumed that the drops the tanks part was apocryphacal, since it
never appeared in any other OTU source.  I haven't used drop tanks in any
game I've played or GM'd in years. But...when we did use them we only used
them to extend the range of the ships between fuelling.
Do it like so. Figure out the total displacement of the ship and drop tanks
and use that to calculate the maximum jump. The ship jumps with the drop
tanks.  After the jump the drop tanks are empty. Drop them. You now have a
lower displacement ship with the same Jump Engines. If the tanks are big
enough the displacement difference might give greater range on the next
Jump, if not you still have the advantage of being able to more quickly jump
again without having to refuel.  Also good for areas where the distance
between systems are greater than 2 or 3 parsecs.

I later went looking for some old game materials that I'd put away a decade
or so ago and found that I was mistaken about some of the details of my
post.  We used the numbers of J-4 with tanks, using only the fuel in the
tanks, J-5 using both the tanks and the internal tanks and J-2 with only the
internal tanks and no drop tanks. In all cases we assumded that the tanks
made the jump.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 09:53:47 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Chaos and the Black Curtian...

> Be careful of the examples you use...the _entire_ Star Wars Trilogy is the
> second of a series of trilogies.  The new Stars Wars movie(s) take place
> before the second set.   (That's why they're being called "prequels.")  So
> whether or not it makes sense, sometimes the second (movie/book) _is_
> presented first.
>
> (I don't want to enter into warfare, either ;-)

This is true and something you don't need to remind me of.  I've been waiting since
1977 to see these movies...  22 years is a looooong time to wait for some movies...

> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:20:15 +0100
> From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
> Subject: The Black Curtain
>
> I've recently begun GMing TNE, and I'm very puzzled as to what is in
> the Black Curtain.
>
> There are references to the RC eventually entering the area, but no
> details on what it contains.
>
> Can anyone help satiate my curiosity, or point me in the direction of
> an answer on the web?
>
> I HAVE checked the FAQ, and done searches on HotBot etc. but no joy...
> :(

Hummm...  Well...  Without giving to much away as I don't know if your PC's are
listening in on this one.

The Black Curtian is the ultimate "Here be Dragon's" sign on a map.  According to the
book it's a kind of "event horizion" which roughly follows the boarders of Lucan's zone
of control immediately before the collapse.  It's an event horizon because nothing that
goes in ever comes out...

In 1201 the starting date for most PC's only the Hub Worlds are likely to know of it's
existance, so if you're running a Pocket Empire campaign, a Reformation Coalition
campaign or a Regency Campaign don't get to worried about it, it doesn't come into play
really until about 1208.  Then all hell breaks loose.  8^)

What's behind the curtian.  Well, that's somewhat of a controversy.  Given the evidence
we have we know.  The Kkree are involved somehow...  The Puppetter strain is involved
and I beleive is likely a carefully bred virus by the Kkree.  It seems to follow in
with their slaved computer systems quite nicely.

This is really a better question to ask on the TNE-RCES list.  You might also want to
point your browsers to the TNE specific sites.

http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard.html

Main Reformation Coalition Site...

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

Main Regency Site, includes the TNE Conspiracy's page...

http://www2.et.byu.edu/~jongoff/RPG/Trav.html

Pocket Empire Site.

http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/main.htm

General Information Site

http://dopey.siscom.net/~hdhale/COE.htm

Children of the Earth Site.  (Terra in TNE / Highly debated)

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Confederation of Nightrim Pocket Empire Site.

That's a few of them...

DS

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:55:15 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Terry C. (<jcarlino@home.com>) writes:

>I've always assumed that the drops the tanks part was apocryphacal, since it
>never appeared in any other OTU source.

There was _High Guard_. That's as canonical as anything else I can think of.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:56:13 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: Mayday Versions 

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:11:30 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

Kenneth Bearden  <dreamer@brokersys.com> replies:

>meow@advancenet.net wrote:
>
>>  I dont remember Mayday
>> ever coming in a ziplock bag let alone in the oversized format.
>> its unpunched.
>
>The oversized Mayday was an updated version that came out just after the
>Starter Traveller boxed set--when GDW was publishing the 8.5x11 boxed
>adventures Beltstrike and Tarsus, The Spinward Marches Campaign, and the
>Alien Modules.
>
>The original Mayday was in small book format, then this updated 8.5x11
>version came out--but it had it's own box and didn't come in a bag.
>

 Funny, because I also have one in this form. The only date I found is 1978.

GC

The Official Price Guide to Role-Playing Games by Timothy Brown and Tony Lee
 list three versions of Mayday.
A ziplocked bag version from 1978
A boxed version from 1980 and a larger boxed version from 1983.
All three are listed with the same contents.
Lawrence Schick's Heroic Worlds only lists Mayday as a sidenote without details

Thorinn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 19:07:47 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (long)

Christopher Thrash writes:

>Let's put some hard numbers to this. I'll take the Tukera 3,000-dton
>freighter (FT, p. 139, or The Traveller Adventure, p. 138)

What are the GT statistics for the unmodified version (I have no idea how
long it will take before I get _Far Trader_ and I'm not sure I have that
design on file)?

>Drop tanks are covered on VE2 p. 94-95, under Hardpoints. The first
>interesting point is  a limit on the size of drop tanks, based (ultimately)
>on the surface area of the vessel and the weight of the tanks.

Why should that be an issue? For a ship designed to sometimes carry its
drop tanks along with it, yes, but drop liners and freighters will never
need to go full throttle with drop tanks attatched, so I would think the
tanks could be any size.

>Tonnage	Max Jump (from drop tanks alone)
>100		6
>200		6
>300		6
>400		6
>600		5
>800		5
>1000		5
>1200		4
>2000		3
>3000		3
>4000		2
>5000		2
>10000		1
>15000		1
>20000		1
>30000		1
>50000		1
>100000		0

Mind you, it's a nice limitation on drop tanks.

>The drop tanks themselves have to be designed as pods; they require
>structure, but not armor.

Why?

>The freighter requires 900 dtons of drop tank. I'll use three of the
>300-dton hulls from GT:Star Mercs (p. 67) and 300 jump fuel modules each:
>400 stons and MCr 50.4 per tank. Note that this is significantly more
>expensive than High Guard (MCr 0.3 each).

I'd say it is. Why is it so expensive?

>We will need a tug to chase after the freighter, catch the expended drop
>tanks, and carry them back to be refilled and reused. Rather than design a
>separate tug, I will use the 800-dton tug from FT p. 138, which rents for
>Cr6,336 per hour. We will also need a crew to service and reattach the
>tanks, which I will treat as containerized cargo handling: Cr3,600 total.

Could you also let me have the statistics for the tug? And why do you need
an 800 T tug to manhandle a 300 T tank?
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 18:17:21 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Far Trader Economics

I have just received my copy of Far Trader.  It looks very comprehensive, and
covers trade in as much detail as you could want, with lots of good ideas. 

I have been trying to make the Far Trader economics work for a Beowulf Free
Trader, but cannot get the figures to come out anywhere near a profit.

I tried to work out the income & expenditure for a single jump, with 100% load,
and came up with:

Income per jump:

  3 High Passengers:   3*1750   = 10.5 KCr
  6 Middle Passengers: 6*1750   = 10.5 KCr
  20 Low Passengers:   20*175   =  3.5 KCr
  63.5 DT of Freight:  63.5*700 = 44.5 KCr

Expenditure per jump:

  Mortgage = 58 KCr
  Salaries =  5 KCr
  Fuel     =  2 KCr
  Maintenance
   contribution = 1 KCr
  Berthing = 20 KCr
  Sundries = 1 KCr

Assumptions:
  24 jumps year.
  Unarmed.
  Mortgage = 240th ships cost per month.
  12.5 DT of cargo space taken up by passengers and crew baggage.

So   Income per Jump = 69 KCr
Expenditure per Jump = 87 KCr

This makes a loss of 20% per jump, and doesn't become profitable until you do 35
jumps a year, which is impractical.

What am I missing?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:57:14 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

In a message dated 4/4/99 1:27:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

<< 
   3 High Passengers:   3*1750   = 10.5 KCr
   6 Middle Passengers: 6*1750   = 10.5 KCr >>

Why would 'hi' and 'middle' passage rates be the same? Aren't the 
disticntions similar to '1st class& coach'? Not that that could make up for a 
20% loss...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 14:11:24 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)

At 09:58 AM 4/2/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Because you may want more surface area for radiators. I suspect a geodesic
>sphere would be more viable than a true sphere.
>
>Showing my prejudices, I feel more comfortable with designs other than a
>sphere, except when I'm designing HG warships on a tight budget...

I certainly don't like spheres, they aren't nearly as neat as normal ships.
 Unfortunately, they make so much sense.....  And yes, a geodesic is
probably even better, and certainly easier to manufacture...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:50:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Civil Debate: [was Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks, jumpspace and garbage)]

The Traveller mailing list does have a history of being a more
vitrolic list.  One of the reasons is the use of characterizations
of the other poster, his tactics, etc. to try and show you
are right.  Aside from the fact that most of these tend
to be wrong, it shouldn't matter.  Even if he were everything
you claim, if you position is as correct as you think it is,
then you should be able to show it through arguements on the
issue at hand...

>I'm big enough to admit I'm wrong (when I am).

Don't try and claim the other side is inflexible in a
debate.  Unless you have switched over to his side,
you have _no_ evidence that you are any more flexible.
That leaves such claims as nothing more than hypocritical
attempts to smear the other person's judgment.

>It's just David's arguments
>that seem particularly lacking

If you are engaging in a debate, and you don't change sides
of course you find the other person's arguements lacks.  He
must clearly find yours lacking also.  The main result
is that this comments can only serve as an attempt to
depricate the other persons posts.

>(and he's the only vocal one I find on that
>side of the fence, though Hans tends towards there, too, i think), to me.

How posts comes and goes, especially on subject that have been
discussed before.  Add in the this the fact that you can easily
have vocal minorities

Just because you had 2 or 3 of people who post something to
support you does give you the right to dismiss the ideas of
others.  It is arrogant and you hurt yourself by closing
you mind to new ideas.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 14:13:38 -0500
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: fleet Jumps

Alan Chambers posted:

> 
> Christopher Thrash wrote:
> The latest information I have from Marc Miller on jump drives strongly
> implies that jump stations will not work:
> 
> "Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant,
> world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself." [He goes on
> later to discuss misjumps from inside 100D, so it's not an absolute
> prohibition the way breakout is.]
> 
> I guess this puts an end to fleets jumping together.
> Alan

Not at all. If you don't want to use jump-masking IYTU, simply
rule that all ships arriving/leaving a system jump above or
below the ecliptic, based on the position of the planetary
body's relative to the ecliptic. A few systems will contain
an eccentric orbit which can affect the jump but you can
always handle this with the random travel time roll.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:34:57 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mayday Versions 

In a message dated 4/4/99 10:17:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
thorinn@mediaone.net writes:

<< The Official Price Guide to Role-Playing Games by Timothy Brown and Tony 
Lee >>

Where do you find this?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:41:53 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder deluxe V4.0

It has come to my attention that there are a few problems in WBD V4.0
relating to Sector Wide System Generation.

I am currently working on an update to fix these problems and will post
confirmation of its completion.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:49:58 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (was: Garbage) 

- --============_-1288867093==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:50:45 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com
>And that wasn't a concern that would affect anything.  Despite the debate
>over the effectiveness of drop tanks, the 3I doesn't care about the
>perception of the balance of power, as long as it favors them.  If it leads
>to war, it leads to war.

From where I stand, a war can really affect PCs.  It will also
take over the timeline.

>> Well, this is, IMO, the only real arguement I can see.  If you
>> decided that focusing your setting on the introduction of drop
>> tank technology is what you want to do, then you get around the fundamental
>> change in the setting issue.  You still have the "why don't you use jump
>> energy for weapons".

>As you have said yourself, there are numerous handwaves for that.  The best
>of which is that the fuel isn't guzzled instantly.  It's all gone by the end
>of jump, sure, but not instantly.

Which makes drop tanks impossible.

>One of the very authors of Far Trader says it won't have the catastrophic
>effect
>you claim.

He also mentioned that he didn't write the section in question.  It
may be that they don't have as big a change as I think, but,
as I said to Chris, I don't see how they can't.

> In fact, I see an interesting discussion in rec.games.frp.gurps
>about
>this very topic where drop tanks are explicitly said to be an option!

Making them an optional rule is exactly how I think they should
be handled.  As to how they affect Free Trader, maybe the
author was able to see a simple systematic change that would
allow the person to be able to change a fundamental aspect of
the book in a simple and systemtatic manner, if so, more
power to him.  (Though it will still mean that the drop
tanks are in variance with the setting as portrayed in the
book).

>Now
>maybe
>this person is in error, but if not, I'm left to wonder why you've left such
>a thing out.
>I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not deliberately
>misrepresenting Far Trader, though.

Good idea.  Even better would have been to not raise the issue
and then pretend you aren't so you can get a little accusation
in without taking responsibility.   That is the sort of thing
I'm talking about in my previous post.

I was a playtester for Free Trader.  However, I don't have a
copy yet.  That passage was added afterwards.

>> That might buy you a year or two.  Maybe less since they are
>> suppose to be in use in the interior without incident now....

>What do you base that on?  Your numbers are just much a WAG as mine.

It based on the fact that it doesn't take decades to fix
quality control problems, esp on items that have already been
shown to be in manufacture else where.

Also, unless drop tanks are the kind of drastic change you want,
pushing them 10 years into the future is a mistake.  It is
not that unusual for a timeline to be advanced that much
(either by a GM or in a published setting).

>
>You appear to be
>the sole proponet that drop tanks destroy Traveller Economics As We Know

Hans has posted before that it does.  Just because you don't see
people posting doesn't mean they don't exist.  Nor does the
number of posts indicate how correct an arguement is.

>> That has been done.  TNS presented them with working prototypes
>> and stated they had been in use for a dozen years.

>Well i'm going off've Behind the Claw here, but it mentions that 1105 was the
>*first* use of drop tanks commercially.  A couple notable disasters, as
>Christopher Thrash has pointed out, would easily push them back decades, and
>is conceivable for centuries.

I'm going off of the actual TNS entries.  To quote...
"    L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen
     years in the interior"

As to centuries?  Why?  If they are in use elsewhere, then the
problems can't be that fundamental.  As the example of the comet
jet showed, such technologies will be used if possible.

>That was mostly sarcasm, though the basic point remains unchallenged by you.
>Tukera and General have very little economic incentive, when you weigh the
>enormous possiblity for eating those drop tanks.

General Ship yards will be making and selling the things and you
don't see they have any incentive for pushing them?
(Wasn't it you who claimed that the TNS entry was part hype on
their part to do just that?)


>Noone, least of all I, have said that.  It will take decades before the
>stigma of drop tanks fades, following a few notable disasters and an enormous
>uncertainty of the true effectiveness of drop tanks (over debates that might
>well have nothing to do with the actual merits or flaws in them).

The examples seen show otherwise.  The Hindenberg did _not_ doom
blimb traffic, the comet did not push jet planes back a decade.
Even if the general public was scared of them, it wouldn't hold
them back since they can still be used for cargo, military,
scouting, etc. purposes.

> Why did we
>not see a BB equiped w/ drop tanks in Fighting Ships?  Because it wasn't
>explored, like you claim?

Exactly.

>  Or the Navy planners didn't have that much
>confidence is such an expensive platform being possibly so vulnerable to
>loss.

As I mentioned, is there a single passage anywhere that said
the problem in the TNS entry was a fundamental one?  A number
of thing imply this isn't true, including the fact that the
rules for them present no hazard...Unless the
authors wanted them to be danerous, but "forgot" to include that
in the rules for them.  Then I would say this is unlikely.

[Repetative stuff delelted.  Other snips are not explicitly
mentiond...]
>> I think so.  It will mean that jump-6 ships will be the rule,
>> rather than jump-2 or so like it is now....

>And you lose 2 more weeks (for a J2 despite the fact u'd need that many more
>drop tanks), in the time you can possibly do the same w/ tanks in your cargo
>hold (inflatable or demountable).  In the same time your competitors have
>made 3 stops.  And one misjump and you're done.  Certainly J6 drives are not
>any more viable for merchant craft?  Or are you saying J3 drives will become
>the rage now?

I don't follow this at all.  Aside from the issue of risk (see
above), why do drop tanks ships loose two weeks?  Getting jump-6
cheaply is certainly quite viable for merchants.  If it doesn't
have to carry fuel, a Free Trader can carry 30% more fuel
and still be able get jump 6, getting cargos to destination
in 1/6 the time.  This will increase revenues 650%.

>> I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you going to back to the
>> arguement that the TNS entries and rules should be changed
>> to make them arbitrarily (and unalterably) dangerous? Like
>> I said before, yuck.

>LOL.  Yuck?  ;-)  I mean that some of the first JTAS (#2) TNS entries spoke
>that there were bad things about them.  That they're not proven.

No.  It didn't.  It said there was one problem with them once.
It mentioned quality control.  As I pointed out, they are also
presented as being in use for over a decade and no rules for
danger from them have been presented.  The entry certainly did
not say that they weren't proven or that there was something
fundamentally bad about them.

>You YOURSELF conceded "decades" (at least two, therefore). You tell me.

To finish, not for the change to begin.  I've said this several
times.

>> You have got to be kidding.  Corps run on the bottom line.  They
>> are going _jump_ at something that affects it.  The Imperium
>> isn't going to ingnore something that give them the edge just
>> becuase they don't like new things (why do you think they have
>> all those research stations).

>To research a whole lot of different things.

Exactly.  They wouldn't be reasearching all that stuff if
they didn't want to use it.  Yet you seem to think they will
just put drop tanks on a shelf and forget about them.

>  If it's what you make it out to
>be yeah.  It hardly appears to be the case, though.

And exactly why is that?

>LOL.  I am pressing your buttons, ain't I?  The first line quoted was
>sarcastic.  I guess i should tone it down some, i'm prone to sarcasm when
>dealing w/ absurdity.

This would be a better comment if you hadn't taken the "dealing with
absurdity" swipe in the middle of claiming you would do better.

>My response probably goes along the lines of "Pot? Kettle?  Nice to meet you."

I must admit, a weakness of mine is that I tend to respond in
kind.  I do appologize for that, but I never started this sort
of tone.

>That is great progress from the instant destruction of Far Trader you were
>saying earlier.

I _never_ said that.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
- --============_-1288867093==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:50:45 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com

>And that wasn't a concern that would affect anything.  Despite the
debate 

>over the effectiveness of drop tanks, the 3I doesn't care about the 

>perception of the balance of power, as long as it favors them.  If it
leads 

>to war, it leads to war.


From where I stand, a war can really affect PCs.  It will also

take over the timeline.


>> Well, this is, IMO, the only real arguement I can see.  If you

>> decided that focusing your setting on the introduction of drop

>> tank technology is what you want to do, then you get around the
fundamental

>> change in the setting issue.  You still have the "why don't you use
jump

>> energy for weapons".


>As you have said yourself, there are numerous handwaves for that.  The
best 

>of which is that the fuel isn't guzzled instantly.  It's all gone by
the end 

>of jump, sure, but not instantly.


Which makes drop tanks impossible.


>One of the very authors of Far Trader says it won't have the
catastrophic 

>effect 

>you claim. 


He also mentioned that he didn't write the section in question.  It

may be that they don't have as big a change as I think, but,

as I said to Chris, I don't see how they can't.


> In fact, I see an interesting discussion in rec.games.frp.gurps 

>about 

>this very topic where drop tanks are explicitly said to be an option!


Making them an optional rule is exactly how I think they should

be handled.  As to how they affect Free Trader, maybe the

author was able to see a simple systematic change that would 

allow the person to be able to change a fundamental aspect of

the book in a simple and systemtatic manner, if so, more

power to him.  (Though it will still mean that the drop

tanks are in variance with the setting as portrayed in the

book).


>Now 

>maybe

>this person is in error, but if not, I'm left to wonder why you've
left such 

>a thing out.  

>I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not
deliberately 

>misrepresenting Far Trader, though.


Good idea.  Even better would have been to not raise the issue

and then pretend you aren't so you can get a little accusation

in without taking responsibility.   That is the sort of thing

I'm talking about in my previous post.


I was a playtester for Free Trader.  However, I don't have a

copy yet.  That passage was added afterwards.


>> That might buy you a year or two.  Maybe less since they are

>> suppose to be in use in the interior without incident now....


>What do you base that on?  Your numbers are just much a WAG as mine. 


It based on the fact that it doesn't take decades to fix

quality control problems, esp on items that have already been

shown to be in manufacture else where.


Also, unless drop tanks are the kind of drastic change you want,

pushing them 10 years into the future is a mistake.  It is

not that unusual for a timeline to be advanced that much 

(either by a GM or in a published setting).


>

>You appear to be 

>the sole proponet that drop tanks destroy Traveller Economics As We
Know 


Hans has posted before that it does.  Just because you don't see

people posting doesn't mean they don't exist.  Nor does the

number of posts indicate how correct an arguement is.


>> That has been done.  TNS presented them with working prototypes

>> and stated they had been in use for a dozen years.


>Well i'm going off've Behind the Claw here, but it mentions that 1105
was the 

>*first* use of drop tanks commercially.  A couple notable disasters,
as 

>Christopher Thrash has pointed out, would easily push them back
decades, and 

>is conceivable for centuries.


I'm going off of the actual TNS entries.  To quote...

"    L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen

     years in the interior"


As to centuries?  Why?  If they are in use elsewhere, then the

problems can't be that fundamental.  As the example of the comet

jet showed, such technologies will be used if possible.


>That was mostly sarcasm, though the basic point remains unchallenged
by you.  

>Tukera and General have very little economic incentive, when you weigh
the 

>enormous possiblity for eating those drop tanks.


General Ship yards will be making and selling the things and you

don't see they have any incentive for pushing them?

(Wasn't it you who claimed that the TNS entry was part hype on

their part to do just that?)



>Noone, least of all I, have said that.  It will take decades before
the 

>stigma of drop tanks fades, following a few notable disasters and an
enormous 

>uncertainty of the true effectiveness of drop tanks (over debates that
might 

>well have nothing to do with the actual merits or flaws in them).


The examples seen show otherwise.  The Hindenberg did _not_ doom

blimb traffic, the comet did not push jet planes back a decade.

Even if the general public was scared of them, it wouldn't hold

them back since they can still be used for cargo, military,

scouting, etc. purposes.


> Why did we 

>not see a BB equiped w/ drop tanks in Fighting Ships?  Because it
wasn't 

>explored, like you claim?


Exactly.


>  Or the Navy planners didn't have that much 

>confidence is such an expensive platform being possibly so vulnerable
to 

>loss.


As I mentioned, is there a single passage anywhere that said

the problem in the TNS entry was a fundamental one?  A number

of thing imply this isn't true, including the fact that the

rules for them present no hazard...Unless the 

authors wanted them to be danerous, but "forgot" to include that

in the rules for them.  Then I would say this is unlikely.


[Repetative stuff delelted.  Other snips are not explicitly

mentiond...]

>> I think so.  It will mean that jump-6 ships will be the rule,

>> rather than jump-2 or so like it is now....


>And you lose 2 more weeks (for a J2 despite the fact u'd need that
many more 

>drop tanks), in the time you can possibly do the same w/ tanks in your
cargo 

>hold (inflatable or demountable).  In the same time your competitors
have 

>made 3 stops.  And one misjump and you're done.  Certainly J6 drives
are not 

>any more viable for merchant craft?  Or are you saying J3 drives will
become 

>the rage now?


I don't follow this at all.  Aside from the issue of risk (see

above), why do drop tanks ships loose two weeks?  Getting jump-6

cheaply is certainly quite viable for merchants.  If it doesn't

have to carry fuel, a Free Trader can carry 30% more fuel

and still be able get jump 6, getting cargos to destination

in 1/6 the time.  This will increase revenues 650%.


>> I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you going to back to the

>> arguement that the TNS entries and rules should be changed

>> to make them arbitrarily (and unalterably) dangerous? Like

>> I said before, yuck.


>LOL.  Yuck?  ;-)  I mean that some of the first JTAS (#2) TNS entries
spoke 

>that there were bad things about them.  That they're not proven. 


No.  It didn't.  It said there was one problem with them once.

It mentioned quality control.  As I pointed out, they are also

presented as being in use for over a decade and no rules for 

danger from them have been presented.  The entry certainly did

not say that they weren't proven or that there was something

fundamentally bad about them.


>You YOURSELF conceded "decades" (at least two, therefore). You tell
me. 


To finish, not for the change to begin.  I've said this several

times.


>> You have got to be kidding.  Corps run on the bottom line.  They

>> are going _jump_ at something that affects it.  The Imperium

>> isn't going to ingnore something that give them the edge just

>> becuase they don't like new things (why do you think they have

>> all those research stations).


>To research a whole lot of different things.


Exactly.  They wouldn't be reasearching all that stuff if

they didn't want to use it.  Yet you seem to think they will

just put drop tanks on a shelf and forget about them.


>  If it's what you make it out to 

>be yeah.  It hardly appears to be the case, though.  


And exactly why is that?


>LOL.  I am pressing your buttons, ain't I?  The first line quoted was

>sarcastic.  I guess i should tone it down some, i'm prone to sarcasm
when 

>dealing w/ absurdity.


This would be a better comment if you hadn't taken the "dealing with

absurdity" swipe in the middle of claiming you would do better.


>My response probably goes along the lines of "Pot? Kettle?  Nice to
meet you."


I must admit, a weakness of mine is that I tend to respond in

kind.  I do appologize for that, but I never started this sort

of tone.


>That is great progress from the instant destruction of Far Trader you
were 

>saying earlier.


I _never_ said that. 

<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>______________________________

summers@alum.mit.edu

(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)</fontfamily>

- --============_-1288867093==_ma============--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #398
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, April 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 399



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank
Re: Garbage
Re: G:T -- TAS Membership
Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Civil Debate: [was Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks,jumpspace and...
Traveller Auctions!
Re: Mayday Edition Question
Re: Languages in Traveller
Re: Imperial Justice
Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank
Re: fleet Jumps
Chicken or the egg?
New version of Space Dock released!
Re: Drop tanks and canon
Re: The Black Curtain

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:00:33 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank

>Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:55:00 +1000
>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

>It is a part of Traveller canon that large amounts of fuel are required
>to propel a ship into jump space and keep it there in a useful fashion.
>
>It is also accepted that some of the fuel required is used to charge up
>the jump drive. This begs the question : why not use the jump capacitors
>as an accumulator bank for 'the mother of all weapons systems'?
>
>My Cr0.02 :-
>An enormous amount of energy is generated in a relatively small volume
>in a short space of time. Only two outcomes can result :-
>i. a controlled distortion in space-time (nascent jump bubble) ;
>ii. the total destruction of the generator.

That is what I go with also.  And that is a good description.
Since it keep and energy
based effect, it rationalizes thing like lanthanum grids/coils,
how antimatter/jump projectors/Annic Nova/etc. work, and
why there is an energy signature (and no mass signature)
when you jump more simply.  It means you don't have to rationalize
why it is called jump fuel (it because you are using it as fuel :-).
I also is more consitent with a the need depending on the
volume (if it were mass based, it should depend on surface
area).

I rationalize it a bit more.  Mine is that the reason you can
get "i" instead of "ii" is that the lanthanum grid or coil
becomes anchored in jump space, which makes it an effectively
infinit sink at absolute zero, early in the process.  Someone
else speculated that you create as singularity and that where
you get to put the energy.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:13:17 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

>Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 23:39:57 +1200
>From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

>The whole damn setting is completely unbelievable if you really think about
>it.
>It's almost impossible that a society that far in the future, constructed of
>multiple alien and human races with supposedly advanced technology ,would be
>remotely recognizable to a twentieth century human. Think about dropping an
>Australian Aboriginal tribesman from the 17th C  in the middle of New York
>
>But it being unbelievable doesn''t make it any less fun to play in.

It is not "completely" unbelievable.  There is a rule that,
in fiction, you get a suspension of disbelief where the
audience will accept something that is not possible as
possible to set up the premise of the story or settings.

However, you get to do this once, and in a limited manner.
If you keep doing it, you damage suspension of disbelief
and the whole thing become "hokey".  In your example, the
audience would accept that dropping an Australian Aberiginal
from the past in NY because it is an interesting situation.
However, if in the middle of the story it you arbitrarily told
them, "this also means he can turn invisible" you would damage
the suspension of disbelief.

After someone mentioned this, the more fiction I saw (good and
bad) the more true I realized this is.  It is one of the classic
mistakes that is made in rpg settings.

>Why not let people use all that energy for weapons ?>Gives them one or two
>really big shots and then they're sitting ducks, unable
>to jump out of system.

I've argued this position in the past, I can not tell Hans that
I admit that I was wrong :-).  The problem is that; having
the choice can be a big deal, you can get a _lot_ of "sort
of big shots, and big ships would use this in addition to
having jump tankage.

>>Don't get your hopes up.  A few decades to mostly finish.  (A lot
>>of the change will occur in one or two.)  But even if it takes
>>5, this will be the _end_ of a period of change that will
>>start as soon as they are introduced.

>If you want to argue like that, then you must also come up with a convincing
>explanation for the lack if bio-tech, the crappy capabilities of TL 15
>computers and communications, most of which we already better on Earth now,
>and all the other strange lacks and presences that the Traveller universe has
>when it comes to technology.

It is a problem.  GT changed that.  In GT computers follow the standard
GURPS progression.

>Now, the normal explantion for these things not being around (or still being
>around) , is "Vilani conservatism". Apply that to your problem above, and it
>is solved.  IF Vilani conservatism is enough to repress or limit development
>over millenia whole technologies, it's not surprising that the drop-tank isn't
>spreading like wildfire.

This never worked for me.  That arguement might apply to whole
TL progression, but if you want to stop one technology it doesn't
help.  Besinde, the Imperium brings in to many things (like
black globes) and researches too many things to be that conservative.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:15:08 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T -- TAS Membership

>Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 06:20:59 -0600
>From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>

>Two ways to do this.  When characters are created, use the "starting wealth"
>rules.  David Summers' original Traveller conversion suggested TAS as a Claim
>to Hospitality(TAS) Advantage at 10 points.  That's what I used when my
>players converted from T4

A Patron actually :-).  (Even Sean Punch decided that Patron
worked better).  One player took it in my campaign and
it seemed to work fine.  I don't know why they took it out.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 15:23:56 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >My Cr0.02 :-
> >An enormous amount of energy is generated in a relatively small volume
> >in a short space of time. Only two outcomes can result :-
> >i. a controlled distortion in space-time (nascent jump bubble) ;
> >ii. the total destruction of the generator.
> 
> That is what I go with also.  And that is a good description.
> Since it keep and energy based effect, it rationalizes thing like lanthanum > grids/coils, how antimatter/jump projectors/Annic Nova/etc. work, and
> why there is an energy signature (and no mass signature)
> when you jump more simply.  It means you don't have to rationalize
> why it is called jump fuel (it because you are using it as fuel :-).
> I also is more consitent with a the need depending on the
> volume (if it were mass based, it should depend on surface
> area).
> 
> I rationalize it a bit more.  Mine is that the reason you can
> get "i" instead of "ii" is that the lanthanum grid or coil
> becomes anchored in jump space, which makes it an effectively
> infinit sink at absolute zero, early in the process.  Someone
> else speculated that you create as singularity and that where
> you get to put the energy.

Which could explain why you need both power plant output (or power
supplied by Black Globe generators) and jump drive output.  The initial
energy to charge the capacitors is used to "anchor" the lanthanum coil,
which then allows the jump drive to operate safely.

I would add the hypothesis that at least a part of the jump drive's
function is to create exotic particles (type to be defined by the
referee in question), which would also act to make the jump drive less
viable as a weapons opwer source. 

> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:52:06 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

[Thanks Jean for actually addressing issues here.  But it
seems to me your back of the envelope calculation missed
something and I have issue with some of your assumptions.
Part of the issue, for me, is that this is the sort of
thing that when you first look at it, doesn't seem so
bad (which is probably why they introduced them) but
when you start exploring them, coming up with ideas
on how it might be used, etc. it gets to be major.  (I
know that it was years before I came to the conclusion
that they were a mistake)]

>Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:25:50 -0600 (CST)
>From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com

>     I'm not going to do that, but let's try some back of the envelope
>calculations.  Based on all the designs we did for Far Trader, j-drives and
>cost around 60% and fuel tanks about 20% of a vanilla large J-2 ship.  The
>advantages of drop tanks are that the ship doesn't need to carry it's fuel
>tanks with it into j-space and can therefore reduce j-drive capacity
>accordingly, and that it can share the cost of fuel tanks with several other
>ships.  For a constant volume of cargo, a J-2 ship using drop tanks can
>reduce j-drive and fuel tank capacity (hence cost) by 20%. Since these two
>components make up 80% of the cost of the ship we see a (.8*.2=.16) 16% drop
>in ship price.  That's not huge but it is enough to make a big difference
>commercially. The cost advantage also goes up with jump number.

You are forgetting something.  You are assuming these ships
remain small jump ships.  When you don't have fuel, a Free
Trader can go from J-1 to J-6 and only loose 10% of its
volume (less than it gained from not having to carry jump
fuel).  I made up a Free trader without fuel that could
do jump-6 and still carry 30% more cargo.

Now in you explination, you mentioned how the economics
were based on the assumption that trade will be generally
jump-2.  If trade become generally jump-6 won't that make
a non-trivial difference?  At the least, it should
redically change the BTNs, and what is based on them.

At the least, I can't see how the upgraded free trader
won't make a lot more money (mortgage, salaries, annual
maintenance cost all depend on how fast the cargo get
there).

>	Pushing the use of drop tanks out beyond the x-boat routes becomes
>much more problemmatic.  If you look at nearly any multi-jump trade route in
>the Marches, there is at least one very poor starport world along the way.
>For drop-tank liners to be feasible, each and every one of these worlds
>would have to have their facilities upgraded to be able to handle the demand
>for drop-tank service from every ship passing through.  This is likely to be
>expensive and take a lot of time.

Remember, the overhead for a drop tank station is not going to
be that great.  You need a fuel shuttle, a few tanks, and
some piping.  If you traffic doesn't warrant hanging around,
you can just have a ship that carries a tank in it belly.
It goes out to the jump point, lets the other ship use
it, and brings it back.  All the port realy needs is a place to park it.

Of course another problem is that, based on how they
work, you shouldn't have to attach the tank to the ship.
It should be able to drop away a pipe.  Thus you
just need a on tanker ship to set up a station.

You can also generate the energy on the tanker ship and reduce
the size the drive on the ship you are launching.

> Note also that the cost savings for drop tanks only happen when
>ships are redesigned to take advantage of the technology.  Since Traveller
>ships can have a useful life-time of _minimum_ 40 years, and very likely at
>least twice that, it will be some time before enough ships could possibly be
>retired to make room for new drop tank ships.

You would convert rather than replace.  You just need to
install the new capatitor banks and fitting for the
pipping.

> Finally, the large
>investments in fixed facilities means that it becomes even harder to shift
>capacity from one route to another since doing so means over-loading the
>drop-tank facilities on one route and idling them on another.  The need to
>maintain conventional ships that can switch from route to route or surplus
>drop-tank ship capacity will erode the cost savings of a commercial drop
>tank fleet.

I don't think the cost of the station will be great (see above)
so you will just have excess capacity with a limited erosion
in savings...

>	All in all, drop tank ships do provide a significant cost savings but
>it is likely not large enough to introduce them off x-boat and main routes.
>In any case, it will take decades for them to phased in.

I agree that it will take time for them to come into use in
peripherial routes.  A few very small worlds may never get
them.  However, this will still be a big change.  Just
off the top of my head, it means that non-drop tanks ships will
be restricted to shuttling cargo between marginal worlds
and the main routes an back (That would certain affect the
traders in one of my campaigns) and will mean that such worlds
have to overcome high shipping prices when it comes to competition.

Even so, it might be better have a drop capable ship and, if
you want to go to a peripheral world, you strap on a set
of demountable tanks for the trip there and back.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:21:27 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??

	I would think that there would be few if any branches of the AAB in 
the Spinward marches.   The First Imperium did not colonize the Marches and 
there would be no branches in continual operation from those days.   The 
client states on the borders seem to have been largely Solomani in origin 
(Sword Worlds, Island CLusters, even the Solomani  influence on the 
Darrians).    The large-scale colonization of the Marches likewise seems to 
have bee done under the leadership of Third Imperium nobles of Solomani 
origin (like the Plankwells).  It doesn't seem clear that the AAB agreesively 
increased the number of branches after the begininng of the THird Imperium 
either.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:26:39 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

On 04 Apr, Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> Terry C. (<jcarlino@home.com>) writes:

> >I've always assumed that the drops the tanks part was apocryphacal,
> >since it never appeared in any other OTU source.

> There was _High Guard_. That's as canonical as anything else I can
> think of.

CT:  High Guard (ed 2) p27; Disposable Tanks
MT:  Referee's Manual p83; Design checklist, 10.4 - fuel(Drop tanks)
TNE: FFS p62; Drop Tanks
T4:  FFS2 p16; Drop Tanks

So all the design systems support drop tanks.

Whilst I don't intend to have them IMTU, I'm campaigning in M0 so I
am not affected by what will happen in Y1100.

However, whilst checking this info, I did note that *none* of the
design systems make any comments that drop tanks are late TL15 or
TL16.

I would note the the Gazelle in supplement 9 is TL14.

So if you allow drop tanks, it becomes clear that they have been
around for several hundred years and should be completely integrated
into the economy. The TNS entry would appear to be at varience with 
the Traveller rules.

It should be possible to build drop tanks at any TL, starports A or B
(and probably C), even if the jump drive itself needs a higher tech.

This should mean that even the Spinward Marches should have plenty of
"Drop Routes" by 1120.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:06:38 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Civil Debate: [was Re: grand unified theory (was: Droptanks,jumpspace and...

	Drop tanks,  again with the drop tanks....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 17:42:46 -0500
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Traveller Auctions!

Folks,

There are about 60 auctions of CT/MT/TNE/T4 Traveller items
on eBay, including *two* copies of "Beltstrike!" (the Traveller
supplement for Belters and prospecting in asteroid belts).

For you newbies, the "Beltstrike!" material has not been
reprinted for any version other than CT and it's rather
rare. It has rules for prospecting, Belter character generation,
and 3 adventures. Current top bids on the two copies are at
$5.00 and $4.95 and are *mint* (supposedly). These things are
worth $10 each (IMO) and I'd get them both if I didn't already
have 2 mint copies (the glories of collecting since 1980).

Another excellent supplement that uncommon is "The Undersea
Environment" which is used for underwater adventuring (SCUBA
diving, underwater recovery, equipment, etc).

You'll need to register with eBay in order to place bids but
it's free and you can look at the auctions without registering.
Registration gets you a password via email within 24 hours.

Just in case you're wondering, I have nothing to do with any
of the auctions or eBay; just trying to "Keep The Flame".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:07:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mayday Edition Question

In mail you write:

> It's GDW stock number 601 (I don't know what Mayday in the LBB
> format's stock number is).  It is missing it's full size, full color
> box.

No it isn't. The second edition of Mayday *did* come in a ziplock bag.
If there was a box, it came much later. I know, I bought a copy just to
get the larger map. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:12:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

In mail you write:

> And it also helps to have a translator that speaks Bochie, and understands 
> the language of binary vaporators.  <I had to say it, flame away if you 
> must.>

Ahem. That's "moisture vaporators".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:18:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice

In mail you write:

> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>
>> Now as I said, by tradition Imperial cases are usually heard by a tribunal
>> (3 to 11 judges, 5 to 6 being most common).
>
> Who are the judges?
>
> Some interesting ideas, but I suspect that there would be very little 
> litigation in YTU.
>
> And I can't really agree with the idea of no depositions.  Thats how
> a great deal of investigative work gets done, at least in a society
> with lots of civil rights.  And its nothing more answering questions
> under oath, i.e., penalties for lying.

For that matter, looking back at the period before the telegraph on
earth, I'd suspect that depositions who get taken a *lot*, on the
grounds that it's easier and *faster* to ship a cryptographically
signed & secured deposition than a witness. And *much* cheaper.

If the other side feels the need to "cross examine" *then* you might
send for the witness. Though this might annoy the court unless it was a
crucial point. 

BTW, does the Imperium have "veridicators"? If so, at what TL? And what
are the limits on their use?

For those not familar with the term, it comes from H. Beam Piper. It's
basicly a gizmo that can tell if the subject is telling the truth or
lying. *Reliably*. That is, after a few simple "test questions", it'll
either respond correctly, or show that the person is incapable of
distinguishing between truth and falsehood (say, for example, they are
a pathological liar). In the latter case, the person's testimony is
worthless anyway, so being unable to verify it isn't a big loss. :-)

*If* they exist in the Imperium, to have a lot of the stuff we see in
"history" be possible, they must only be usable during trials, not
during investigations. Or rather, you can only be *compelled* to submit
to a veridicator when testifying "under oath", with no prejudice for
refusing to do so at other times. 

Also, quesioning would (obviously) have to be *strictly* restricted to
"relevant" topics.

I'm not sure if they *belong* in Traveller, but I thought I'd throw the
idea out.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:32:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank

In mail you write:

> It is a part of Traveller canon that large amounts of fuel are required
> to propel a ship into jump space and keep it there in a useful fashion.
>
> It is also accepted that some of the fuel required is used to charge up
> the jump drive. This begs the question : why not use the jump capacitors
> as an accumulator bank for 'the mother of all weapons systems'?
>
> My Cr0.02 :-
> An enormous amount of energy is generated in a relatively small volume
> in a short space of time. Only two outcomes can result :-
> i. a controlled distortion in space-time (nascent jump bubble) ;
> ii. the total destruction of the generator.

Actually, as I've said in the past, the *simplest* explanation is that
the *form* of the energy is useless for anything but initiating a jump.
At least at known tech levels. Maybe it goes into distorting space
inside the coils/crystals. 

Of course, the *effect* of my explanation turns out to be the same as
yours. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:37:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: fleet Jumps

In mail you write:

> Christopher Thrash wrote:
> The latest information I have from Marc Miller on jump drives strongly
> implies that jump stations will not work:
>
> "Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant,
> world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself." [He goes on
> later to discuss misjumps from inside 100D, so it's not an absolute
> prohibition the way breakout is.]
>
> I guess this puts an end to fleets jumping together.

Hardly. Contrary to what you see in all the movies and on TV fleets of
space ships *won't* be packed so tightly that you can throw rocks
between them. That's *asking* for trouble at their velocities.

Heck, if you look at a carrier group at sea, the ships are farther
apart than the ships in the average TV show/movie.

Having ships a kilometer or more apart will be quite reasonable. It
also makes it harder to take them all out with the same nuke. 100
*ship* diameters apart isn't all that far, even if you use the longest
dimension of the ship. 

At 100 km apart, a 30,000 km hex can hold around 9000 ships. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:24:24 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Chicken or the egg?

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:49:38 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Chaos...

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:07:43 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos
>
> Joseph Kimball wrote:
> >
> > I picked up the book To Dream of Chaos at my FLGS yesterday.  I'm into
> > it about 55 pages and enjoying it.  It is part 2 of a trilogy though,
> > and I'm wishing I could find the other two.  Oh well...
>
> Don't get your hopes up...only the second one was ever published, IIRC.

Nope.  Both the first and second one's were published.

Not wanting to start a war here but think carefully about what you said
there.  Did
Tolkien publish The Two Towers first?  Did Empire Strikes Back come out
first?  No,
no one publishes the second book of a trilogy first...  Doesn't make sence.

How about Raiders of the Lost Ark? It is the second movie in the Indiana
Jones Trilogy, but it was made first.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:51:29 -0600
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: New version of Space Dock released!

It's finally here! Check out this list of new features in version 1.1
of Space Dock...

* Added an area where you can make changes to the database. Add,
delete and modify modules, weapons, and cargo items as much as you
like. It's all here!
* Added the ability to export to a separate file all changes which
you've made to the data. Then you can restore this data after any time
you receive a database upgrade from me. That way you don't lose your
changes.
* Added the ability to allow the user to select the font used for
printer output.
* Fixed the stats on the Fusion Gun.
* Implemented an information screen for modules and weapons.
Accessible by double-clicking on a group of items currently on the
ship.
* Fixed a minor problem with the upper limit on turrets and bays not
getting set properly when loading a ship.
* Fixed a bug with incorrect spaces/mass/cost when removing cargo.
* Added an option to allow you to turn off the Tech Level filters.
This allows you to put (for example) TL 12 weapons on your TL 10 ship.
* Added an option to allow you to adjust the mass added to your loaded
mass for each empty cargo space.
* You can now add fractional amounts of certain modules (like cargo).
* You can now put weapons with a non-standard volume in turrets. This
means that you can fit two of the 1.5 space weapons in a turret
instead of being forced to mount them on the hull.
* Jump Rating is now displayed on the design screen. This rating is
automatically adjusted when you change the hull size of your ship.

You can download the new version at the following location:

http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

Enjoy!

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 21:26:38 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks and canon

At 07:28 PM 4/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>----------
>> From: Thad K. Sneed <revtks@apex2000.net>
>> To: traveller@mpgn.com
>> Subject: Re: Drop tanks and canon
>> Date: Saturday, 03 April, 1999 6:33 PM
>> 
>> Ack!  Are you saying that now a ship has to plot a linear course, which
>does
>> not intersect with any other body?  (Including other ships, comets,
>> asteroids, etc?)  I would think that this would be extraordinarily
>difficult
>> to do, BTW.
>> 
>> If so, is this to be part of Traveller canon, or is it an optional rule?
>> 
>
>It's GURPS.  Everything is optional.
>
>However, IIRC, it's based on things Marc Miller has published in JTAS, so
>it's at least semi-canonical.  In general, it seems that you can ignore
>objects in interstellar space, and ignore relatively small objects.  Far
>Trader only calculates jump masking for system primaries, I believe.

This is info from the Pyramid G:T discussion group.   I don't have the
original text, so I am paraphrasing.  My apologies if I get anything wrong.  

According to Marc Miller, _all_ objects that are bigger than the ship will
cause  breakout if within 100D.  This includes object in interstellar
space, and is the reason why a ship needs an astrogator.  Fortunately,
_very_ accurate charts are available (After all, three different millennia
old civilization have been mapping this stuff. )  However, sometimes you
still make a mistake, or breakout due to an uncharted vessel.  This is
represented by the chance of misjumps that can sometimes place the ship
between the target and destination worlds.

This also (IMHO) raises the possibilities for piracy, since now most ships
will tend to come out within a predictable region (albeit a very large one)
rather than anywhere in the system.

As for fleets jumping together, a 100kdt battleship is about 2/5 mile long
(according to G:T)  thus, it's 100D limit is 40 miles.  Considering that in
G:T one hex in space combat is 10,000 miles, fleets can be in fairly close
formation. 

As for the issue of cannonicity, since I play G:T (or will, as of this
weekend when we convert from T4), this is cannon IMOTU (In My Official
Traveller Universe).  :) 



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 19:31:50 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: The Black Curtain

Matthew Bond wrote:

>I've recently begun GMing TNE, and I'm very puzzled as to what is in
>the Black Curtain.
>
>There are references to the RC eventually entering the area, but no
>details on what it contains.
>
>Can anyone help satiate my curiosity, or point me in the direction of
>an answer on the web?
>
>I HAVE checked the FAQ, and done searches on HotBot etc. but no joy...
>:(

None of it is canon, but back when I was playing and reffing TNE I put
together a "Conspiracy Theories" web page for people to post their ideas
about the Black Curtain and TNE's other mysterious. See my Traveller page
at the URL in my signature and go to the Campaign > Conspiracy Theories
page to see some of the ideas.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #399
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